
[FDL welcomes a guest post from Elizabeth de la Vega, a former federal prosecutor, author and regular writer for TomDispatch and The Nation. We are happy to announce that she will be our guest for the FDL Book Salon on February 11, 2007 at 2 pm PT/5 pm ET to discuss her book The United States v. George W. Bush, et. al. We are thrilled that Betsy could pen something for us this morning to whet your appetites for the book salon to come. -- CHS]
Guest post by Elizabeth de la Vega
Being asked to do a guest post on Firedoglake engenders feelings similar to those I dimly — very dimly– remember feeling after being asked out on a first date: elation, excitement…biting-cold fear. What if it turns out to be a disaster? With some trepidation, then, I say thanks to Christy and Jane for inviting me to post. I’m so glad to see Jane is back, feisty as always, and that someone found space for her to write on her own blog!
Strange that I’d be thinking about first dates, or dates of any nature whatsoever, since I’m married with five “children” ranging from 20 to 28. Not that surprising, though, because I’m on my way to Shaman Drum in Ann Arbor, where I spent my college days and had the usual variety of great and nightmarish first dates.
I haven’t been back to Ann Arbor since 1974, but lately I’ve been having some vivid, entirely non-drug induced (unless you consider Diet Coke) flashbacks. Like all Baby Boomers, my college memories are inextricably tangled with memories of Vietnam, massive protests (including sleeping at the foot of the Lincoln Memorial!), relentless troop escalation, revelations about illegal spying, retaliation against critics, presidentially-authorized burglaries, slush funds, and, finally, riveting Watergate hearings leading to impeachment proceedings against Nixon. And it’s all set to a soundtrack by Country Joe and the Fish, Marvin Gaye, Janis Joplin, Bob Seger as well as, of course, Bob Dylan, the Beatles and B.B. King.
What strikes me about those days is just how much time had to elapse and how much information had to come out before the public became finally — and utterly — disgusted with President Richard Milhous Nixon.
It was years and years. The reason for this painfully-slow evolution in public consciousness has to do with two things, the first of which is gobbledygook. “Gobbledygook” is not my word; it’s the word used by H.R. Haldeman, the extremely Rove-like Chief of Staff to Nixon, who called himself, affectionately, Nixon’s “son-of-a-bitch.”
When the N.Y. Times first published the Pentagon Papers – the Defense Department’s 7000-page history of the Vietnam War leaked by former defense analyst Daniel Ellsberg — Nixon thought the revelation was no big deal. After all, he said, the papers made Johnson and Kennedy look bad, too. But, as we later learned when the infamous Watergate tapes were finally disclosed, Haldeman had explained their significance quite clearly:
"To the ordinary guy, all this is a bunch of gobbledygook. But out of the gobbledygook comes a very clear thing: you can't trust the government; you can't believe what they say, and you can't rely on their judgment. And the implicit infallibility of presidents, which has been an accepted thing in America, is badly hurt by this, because it shows that people do things the president wants to do even though it's wrong, and the president can be wrong."
Unfortunately, as Ellsberg has pointed out, this lesson is one that “each new generation of voters and each new generation of leaders have to learn for themselves.”
Even worse, considering our present state, getting hit repeatedly with ever-more-depressing revelations about the patently illegal and immoral activities of the Bush Administration — lying about a war against people 8000 miles away who have neither attacked nor threatened to attack us; condoning and conducting torture; illegal spying; retaliating against critics — it’s a lesson that takes an excruciatingly-long time for the public to absorb.
Why is that? Well, for starters, it takes people a long time to sort through the gobbledygook. They have harried and hurried lives filled with obligations and worries, and certainly not enough time to analyze everything that government officials do and say.
But there’s another reason, one I’ve learned over many years as a prosecutor. It’s not so much that people are gullible – although sometimes they are—and certainly not that they are stupid, but rather that people judge others, particularly those whom they admire, by the same standards they apply to themselves. They think, well, certainly my neighbor would never mislead me about those limited partnerships he was selling. I would never do such a thing. I cannot even tell you how many times I had people who had lost their entire life’s savings sit in my office and tell me how they gave an obvious con artist one chance after another to make good on his word, because he was, say, a deacon in the church or a member of the Rotary Club.
There is some good news, though — something else I learned as a prosecutor. While it’s hard for those on the receiving end of a fraud to finally figure out and accept that someone they trusted has betrayed them, it’s not so hard for juries to figure out what happened.
That is why the Libby trial, like the Watergate burglary trial and others in that time period, is so critical.
Because, as we’ve seen, thanks to excellent blogging by Christy, Marcy, Pachacutec and others, trials are focused, orderly proceedings that weed out confusing background noise pretty darned well. Sure, the government’s opening statement was clear and the defense’s was serpentine and murky. But, as the jury has already heard and will hear again: “Opening statements are not evidence.” In other words, opening statements may not be considered by the jury as evidence and much of what the defense said may well never be proved through evidence that the jury can consider!
And already, witnesses such as Cathie Martin and Craig Schmall, who are obviously not eager to be in the courtroom, are quietly enabling us to sort through the gobbledygook, thereby laying the groundwork for the public to possibly finally realize, as Haldeman put it, “one very clear thing”: you can’t trust Scooter Libby and you can’t trust the administration of which he was such an integral part. There are many more witnesses, of course, and much more evidence, all of which may, finally, in the case of Bush and Cheney, teach us the same lesson we were so long in learning about Nixon.
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FITZ!!!
If Libby is convicted, regardless of a possible pardon, would you care to comment on what message (from this possible conviction) Americans might want to come away with?
Elizabeth is travelling this morning — but I’m sure she’ll get back in and hit the comments and questions at some point when she can log into the site. :)
OK at 2 — I’d prefer that the American public take awy the conviction that the entire malignant cabal at the WH is a bunch of lying phonies who would do anything, including jeopardizing national security secrecy, to cover their own political asses. But that’s just me. ;-)
People for the most part do want to believe the best in others. That is true with the government too. While I believe most people in government service do good work, the leadership of this government has been so inept in many areas that they have lost the faith of the people. From the war to Katrina to environmental policy to the cronyism, they have lost the trust a government must have to be effective.
AZ Matt at 4 — Agreed. It is as though every program these folks have touched the last six years has gone badly — many lessons in this with regard to the conservative approach to government that these yahoos espouse. And I do think that Katrina was a real turning point in so many minds — the visuals of destruction and chaos cut through all of the spun web of manipulative PR like a knife. And suddenly, facts began to matter again to the bulk of the public. At least, I certainly hope so…
Hi Ms de la Vega, let me say that one of your early essays got me interested in this case, and eventually led me to FDL. One question: what should we look for with Ari Fleischer this week? Does his immunity deal seem a bit risky, or do you understand Fitzgerald’s tact to be more straightforward (like you expect him to establish a certain element of the crime)?
OK @ 2
Let them pardon Libby. If they want to slide to almost nothing in the polls that would grease the slide for them. I think the rest of the Reepublican Party that needs to be re-elected will not be happy because they will get the grease on themselves also. Which is fine by me of course!
Fwiw, here’s a link from the Associated Press with the exhibits from both the Prosecution and the Defense in the Libby Trial:
Documents From The Trial of I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby
Mad Dogs at 8 — Useful public link — thanks so muc for posting it. :)
Direct hit, Christy Harden Smith at 3.
And, while we’re talking about the Bush administration–What pisses me off the most, of all the things that piss me off about George Bush, is his statement that he has had no trouble sleeping at night…which came after a year during which I never slept at night, not once, because I paced the floor from the late news until sunrise worrying about whether or not my Marine son in Fallujah was going to come home in a box (he finally came home in one piece but, just like Vietnam, it’s a crapshoot).
This is wonderful news. de La Vega’s work is so very impressive. Here’s one of her great pieces of writing. The Kitty Genovese connection is stunning.
On another note: Lest we thought Liarman had any other intentions than his most obvious intent to misrepresent us all here in CT, as well as in the Senate read here.
Elizabeth, when will you be at Shaman Drum?
Terry at 10 — Please thank your son from me for his service, and I sure hope he’s still home and safe. The Bush Administration has a lot to answer for, not the least of which is the worry and fear of so many families and friends of our servicepeople as a result of the messed up war of choice, and the piss poor planning for the occupation phase of this chaotic mess. It is well past time for some accoutability on all of that so that this sort of mistake is never, ever repeated.
Christy @ 5,
They biggest problem was their attitude towards government in the first place. They hate effective government, they want ineffective government in order to justify privatizing service. They want government to fail to a certain point. Unfortunately for them most in government service want to do a good job, they care about the public they serve. Bushies hate that. Dept of Interior auditors – out. US Attorneys General – out. Army Generals speaking the truth – out.
And already, witnesses such as Cathie Martin and Craig Schmall, who are obviously not eager to be in the courtroom,
First person I’ve heard say what I also got a vibration of…
I wrote:
One thing which has surprised me so far is that the prosecution witnesses seem to rather overtly *not* want to be there, and seem to be jumping at any and all chances to back-pedal as furiously as possible. Now we know that Ari Fleischer is the immunized witness, who took the 5th until offered a deal. What I’m *not* sensing from the other witnesses is that there are, at least, informal agreements in place with them. In other words, I would think that they would be more helpful if they were, in fact, in any way in fear of a later prosecution involving the outing of a CIA undercover agent.
Obviously, I’m not saying this very well, but I don’t sense (goddamm lack of cameras) the eagerness to help from witnesses so far which would indicate to me that these people are in any way afraid of a future which might include a little jail time.
Anyone else?
The Idiot-Child will pardon Libby on a Friday at 5 PM on a Monday holiday weekend. The news will be out Tuesday and no one will be the wiser..
Bookwoman, what about a recall in CT? Lieberschit is so far out there, he needs to be cut loose…
AZ Matt at 14 — Their hands on the wheel of their own self-fulfilling incompetence. Lovely, isn’t it?
Why do Joe Lieberman and George W. Bush want to start a war with Iran?
Peace train.
-GSD
Jay at 16 — If Bush were going to pardon Libby this early in his Presidency, he would have done so prior to the trial beginning. To do so now would open the next two years to Congressional hearings and the civil suit that the Wilsons have filed. At this point, with the testimony that has already been given, any Libby pardon — if at all — will come at the end of Bush’s presidency to prevent the spectacle of hearing after hearing on the subject on the Hill with Bush holed up even more in the White House. Anything else is illogical (not that that has stopped Bush in the past, but the rest of the GOP has the 2008 elections to consider…)
GSD at 19 — Because they are idiotic wankers? (Oh, sorry, that was too easy a response, wasn’t it?)
GSD @ 19
Maybe they have some nifty uniforms to try out..Deciderer in Chief and General AssKisser
Warms the NeoCon heart: a civil war for every Arab…
Christy, do you think Fitz’ Thursday motion to get Libby’s non-disclosure agreements admitted as evidence will pass muster with Walton? My apologies if it’s already been asked.
Elizabeth – Thank you for visiting, and providing a little ray of sunshine and hope. I know we are all losing some of our patience in the hope that the rest of our fellow Americans will FINALLY Wake Up!
Christy Hardin Smith @ 18
Yes, that part is but the sad part is the people they are dragging down with them. Added to the toll of the war is the loss of necessary services that a government must provided to its people. Then we have the wonderful debt that will be saddling this nation for generations. 2008 can’t get here soon enough.
Terre at 24 — I’m not sure how Walton is going to handle that, to be honest. I don’t see how Fitz can get in Libby’s own agreements without introducing them via Libby. But I’d think he could get in anyone’s SF-312, especially via Ari considering how he has also likely breached the spirit of the confidentiality of that agreement with his big, blabbing mouth — which would then get the information to the jury as to what is required for clearance and the safeguards which are supposed to exist thereon.
Quoting Christy:
And the full measure of shrub’s illegality and immorality will, unlike in Nixon’s case, quite possibly never be known. NYT had an editorial today (Dorothy Samuels) about shrub’s Executive Order 13233, which cancelled the public’s right to presidential records pursuant to the Presidential Records Act of 1978. He plans to build a monumentally neoclassical $500 million library which will house precisely nothing… his null-set legacy in a shrine to rival the monuments Roman God Emperors used to build to themselves.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01…..8sun4.html
OK Christy, maybe Bush won’t pardon Libby, do you think team Libby will try to burnout the jury with days and days of dry detail ala Johnny Cochran and hope the jury will acquit just to get out of the jury room?
Christy,
Thanks for all that you’ve done, really enjoyed your analysis and commentary last week.
Considering what Patrick Fitzgerald had said prior to the announcement of the Libby indictment (something along the lines of “not prosecuting/investigating the case that the Bush administration made for war”)…what do you think the odds are that the prosecution will take this “wherever it leads” as was detailed in the original documents handing Fitz the case from James Comey?
Jay at 28 — I think one of the primary defense tactics thus far has been to inject as much confusion as possible into the jury to raise any spectre of “reasonable doubt” that they can. But, honestly, that is their job — especially when they don’t have much else to work with to defend their client. So it’s not exactly a surprise. They don’t have any unified theme at this point, though, and that IS surprising — the themes they have raised are, at several points, contradictory and I haven’t yet figured out if this was intentional for confusion purposes or if they are simply grasping at whatever straw happens to be handy.
The first before-and-after-SOTU JAR poll just came out. Shrub actually LOST a point from 1/17-18 to 1/24-25. Disapproval wen up 2 points. I think that may be a recent presidential first…
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16…../newsweek/
Thanks, Elizabeth. You’re spot on — it takes a lot for the public to be able to start sorting through and accepting this stuff in a permanent and meaningful way and this trial is a wonderful opportunity to abet that process. Your insights are much appreciated, and thanks for blogging here at FDL.
If Libby is convicted and has to report to jail, can he then start singing and negotiate his sentence?
btw, all — Jeralyn Merritt of TalkLeft will be doing legal coverage for us from the courtroom this upcomng week in DC. We thought it would be really useful to get perspective from a defense attorney — and to get it from someone with Jeralyn’s courtroom experience is really wonderful (Jeralyn was on Tim McVeigh’s defens team, among many other cases, and her federal courtroom experience is outstanding). She and I had a long conversation about legal tactics and what I’ve seen on Saturday and I can’t wait to read her dispatches this week. :)
I think the American people are about as woken up about Iraq as they are going to get. The November election and tanked poll numbers show that. This may wake them up about the utter malevolence of these guys. But I want the American people to wake up about how this crew is destroying our civil liberties, the environment, and the middle class. I hope this trial will open them up that awakening.
It looks like another US chopper shot down in Iraq today too.
Dick Cheney thinks that is just spectacular.
-GSD
kemo @ 17:
When you say
I think this issue has been brought up before and we don’t have a mechanism in CT for a recall. What has been happening is that Professor Orman (from Fairfield University) is challenging Lieberman’s position in the Connecticut for Liiberman party, which was the phoney party Liarman used to grab back a seat in the Senate. I don’t know how this will shake out, but Joe is an utter travesty. I honestly don’t see how he was allowed to run as a CFL and then call himself an Independent Dem (and now he has morphed into just an Indy). What a slimeball! But he’s gotten away with it, so far.
GSD @ 36
Yeah, Carlyle gets to sell another helicopter..
Thanks Christy. If SF-312’s are introduced for others, but not specifically for Libby, is still it possible for a jurorist to “subconsciencely” form their own conclusion, and assume that Libby has his own, therefore possibly concluding that that may have also been a motive for lying? Or can they not consider it at all? ‘Course that would be like putting the genie back into the bottle.
Loved the book, and it’s on the shelf as a keeper! Thanks for stopping by. But, you forgot Joni Mitchell!
*
Jay at 33 — It will be too late to negotiate much on sentence at that point — but he might be able to negotiate a deal on any further prosecution and nab an acceptance of responsibility reduction of sentence recommendation from the government if he spills prior to the sentence being pronounced by Judge Walton. If Fitz intends to pursue any other prosecution — say for a conspiracy or something else — following Libby’s trial, Libby would be well advised to fess up, and quickly, before someone else jumps on that bandwagon and cuts him out of the plea bargain possibilities entirely. (This coming from a lawyer who has been appointed to represent federal drug defendant’s at the end of a long line of plea deals. It is not pretty to be the last man standing, holding the bag for everyone else.)
I’m so pleased to see that Elizabeth de la Vega will be welcomed into FDL’s Book Salon. I emailed FDL (Jane Christy, and so forth) to ask that they consider inviting her. Makes me feel just a tinge of pride that we were all of like mind. I suspect that they received many similar emails with the same request, and I suspect that they, Jane, Christy and so forth, were well aware of Ms. de la Vega’s great work without it having been brought to their attention by FDL readers such as my self. Nonetheless…this is going to be ever so groovy! ;o).
By the way, great quote about Prezident Bush from former SecDef William Perry (Commonwealth Club podcast):
some of us really do work hard (hence the moniker TiredFed). has been very hard the past 6 years. Bush (like Raygun before him) has tried to dismantle every domestic program in favor of the military/industrial complex. Now it looks like we might get a privatizer in charge of Social Security who can’t be removed for 6 YEARS. Here we go again.
We should also take away the notion that people who supported criminals in past scandals, say Iran-Contra, should not be given jobs in the government.
Welcome to FDL, Elizabeth!!!
Christy, I have a spotlight project for the FDL legal eagles.
The New Mexico Legislature is considering an Impeachment Resolution, but the current draft does not include any refrence to the underlying SF-312 TreasonGate crimes that are at the heart of the Libby trial.
The SF-312, Motive, Opportunity And Intent
Can some FDLers draft a resolution that would include this?
Something like “Whereas the Bush Administration and Dick Cheney did conspire to violate SF-312 by revealing the identity of a covert CIA operative, with the implicit or tacit approval of George Bush, etc, etc.”
The power of Presidential pardon is absolute, except in cases of Impeachment. If the crimes related to the Libby Trial are part of the New Mexico Impeachment Resolution, it could preclude Presidential Pardons for any of the perpetrators.
BTW…. Marcy Wheeler will have a radio interview on the Phoenix Air America Action Point show today which airs 12-1pm MST. You can stream it at the following links:
http://www.1480kphx.com/
or
http://www.novamradio.com/listen-live-1
I believe it was Nina who mentioned at the end of her comments on NPR the other day that Libby’s team was at a cost of $10 million (more?). She said she counted them, I think she said there were 13 lawyers at his table. Said none of these people show up without the really big bucks, all from big/expensive law firms.
Also, Walton mentioned that the government lawyers were worried if Cathie Martin spilled her coffee (some drink) onto the keyboard as the court did not have the money to replace it, mentioned the lack of resources for the government. Not sure if that was in front of the jury, but I think so.
Heh.
{{{{{JANE}}}}} you’re up early, eh? happy to see your byline this morning.
bg at 49 — Yes,there are a LOT of lawyers at the defense table, and that does not include the other defense lawyers in the overflow room next door, who occasionally come in and out with paperwork and files and such. There are more than 13 in the courthouse, and that’s not counting all the support staff and other attorneys back at each of the law firms either.
bg — btw, no coffee in the courtroom — only water, and only for counsel and witnesses. I was doing trial notes on my measley cuppa coffee first thing in the morning every day — I think I deserve a medal or something. *G*
sheila anderson @ 46
I’d start with people who *were* criminals in Iran-Contra (pardoned or not). Shouldn’t the standards for having a high security clearance be higher than that?
Elizabeth de la V: wonderful, beautiful, hopeful post. Thank you.
And re pardons: by the time that time comes, these bastards will be such scum in the court of public opinion it won’t matter.
My only qualm is, even Nixon wouldn’t have started WWIII just to help his delusional ego and political ass. His disciple Cheney would and quite possibly will. We must remove Cheney asap.
Christy, how does all that lawyer power look to the jury? If the defense really does not have a good case, and they see ALL those lawyers there on his behalf, does that not cut against him on some level. I mean, even if there is no “evidence” on that?
Gee, who’s paying for TeamLibby?
I’ll have to cases of impeachment to go please.
-GSD
Jay @ 56
Tucker Carlson’s Pappy.
-GSD
bg at 55 — You know, I’m not certain how that cuts with the jury. I’ve never had the opportunity to serve on a jury — I get culled out due to my legal experience when I get called to jury duty, so Im not certain how they discuss that behind closed doors. But it can’t help but have some impact, I would think — it is a large number of folks sitting around the defense table, al buzzing about and handing the chief counsels (Wells, Jeffress and Cline) prepped trial materials, etc. The government does not have that same luxury — and they all help each other around the table.
Maybe the reason Pelosi promised no impeachment is because she knows that Fitz has the goods without the help of Congress?
When will you be at the DRUM.
Born and raised in Ann Arbor…..the stories of dissent and liberalism are legendary.
Meet me at Zingermans….just say the time!
sheila anderson @ 46
Absolutely. If we don’t weed these guys out by the root, in another 6 years they’ll abb be back in there somewhere. Like Kissinger, Wolfowitz, etc.
katymine @ 48
Tuned into the Hartman show via your link, he’s disassembling D’Sousa right now. Cool.
ccmask @ 62
As long as there are “Conservative Think Tanks” these crooks have a place to lay low..
Will the last Arab envoy out of Iraq please turn off the lights and mop up the blood?
Arab League envoy quits.
-GSD
I believe this was the article that made me a big fan of Elizabeth de la Vega! She’s one of my favorite heroes!
CNN is going to have some Libby trial examination later in the hour. Just FYI everyone.
Fitz can only take things so far. The rest (impeachment) will be up to Congress. And Congress can’t be greymailed.
As a subscriber to The Nation, I have read and enjoyed many of Ms. de la Vega’s articles. I am pleased to see her here. She is very intelligent and capable of gleening the important bits from the gobbledygook for a coherent analysis. (I say in all honesty that sometimes, Elizabeth’s Nation articles went over my head). I cancelled my Nation subscription, because I was getting depressed by having the knowledge and seeing the incapability (on anyone’s part)of reversing the train to hell (until now).
I am happy to have found FDL and hopeful like others that the Libby trial will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back or rather the thread that unravels this maladministration.
Thanks to Elizabeth, Jane, Christy, Marcy, Geralyn, Pach and all the rest.
Sorting through the smoke and mirrors- the gobbledygook- of the Libby trial may yield the one defining piece of information that the American public have been loath to acknowledge: the President lied to the American people. And he used the power of his office to destroy the credibility of someone brave enough to point that out- Joseph Wilson.
jeffreyw @ 63
Another good show is About Face which the hour preceding Action Point hosted by local Veterans for Peace group. They have some really great topics too.
Nice piece, Elizabeth. I remember those Nixon days so well. The interesting thing about those times is what actually brought the administration down. A ridiculous dirty-trick break-in at the Watergate Hotel. I’m waiting for the equivalent revelation that will start that beautiful unraveling now. One thread pulled perfectly and the whole things comes undone. Truly a thing to behold.
CNN – more of the Evil One. Hard to stomach. will leave the room and come back later.
Anyone else remember that portentous day in ‘74 when the Congressional leadership of the Republican Party walked into the WH to tell Nixon that his time was up, that he had to resign or be impeached? Senators Hugh Scott, Barry Goldwater and more … who will do it this time, for the Bush Gang? (S.O.S. stops to google up more info… whoops, Huffington Post covered this in an article by Tom Watson, 7/23/2005. Good job, Tom Watson, except that by now the precipitant may be Libby instead of Rove. Here’s a compressed link: http://tinyurl.com/2orzre ) … my work is done here!
… except to say THANKS FDL for your amazing coverage of the trial…
and (((JANE)))
tiredfed at 73 — I hear you — but I knew the brief Libby portion was coming up and I wanted to watch Cheney’s facial expressions while he was talking about it. He did the indignant reaction thing while pushing back from Blitzer — interesting. Should be quite a day of fireworks if and when he gets called to the stand for cross-examination, I’d say.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 75
Christy,
In your estimation will Cheney try to invoke excutive privlage when called to testify? Kind of like he did to Congress over the meetings on energy policy. Is that something that would work for him in this trial?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 20
I’m not so sure. The Bush team is so super secretive that exposure in court would be their undoing for years to come. This is a lose lose deal for BushCo. Why not take the hit and keep it out of the courts? Did Ford say something like “pardoned for any crimes Nixon did or might have done . . .”? That gem appears to take any court action away from the future possibility conviction. Bush is not above something like that. In fact he doesn’t care in the least.
Regarding impeachment, perhaps Governor Richardson would be open to input from across the nation, on the impeachment resolution now (bury this) in front of three (NM) Senate committees. You know, since he has announced his intentions. . .his site
tiredfed @ 73
Wolf might not be there when you get back. I know, it’s a repeat but I still get the feeling that the VP could somehow pull it off.
oddball @
61
Get me a Reuben will ya? Zing’s is the BEST!
Nice post Elizabeth, the quality of writing here at the lake continues to get better and better. Go Blue! (and hey Oddball!)
azmatt@14:
So true. The contempt for government which is key, central, defining to the way BushCo governs– the desire to see government fail, to conspire to assure that failure, in order to facilitate the biggest ripoff in history–this is the thing that drives me kee-raziest about this bunch of lawless bozos.
Blood and treasure, land and infrastructure– they are relentless, untiring.
On night way back, I stumbled on a hearing on Cspan, being held by a very few democratic congresspeople about the recently declared bankruptcy of Amtrak & the proposal to sell off its infrastructure to corps. The guy testifying, when I tuned in, had been the head of Amtrak for years– until recently. He had tons of experience, had run the thing successfully, more or less, for years and was adamantly opposed to privatization. So they fired him. Brought in one of their operatives (as they’re in the process of doing in DOJ). And this guy simply did not submit the paperwork for annual request for federal subsidy which was a crucial part of the budget. No paperwork, no subsidy.
And instantly, without having lifted more than one finger for one minute, he put Amtrak into bankruptcy and set about solving the “problem” by selling everything off.
There isn’t enough tar in the world, there aren’t enough feathers for these guys. But we can still run them the fuck out of town. Can’t we?
Re the parallels with Nixon: Tricky Dick actually had quite a high approval rating until the trials of the Watergate burglars, at which point it plummeted rapidly to what we now term Nixonian levels. Chimpy has managed to almost reach Nixonian levels prior to the first big trial of a member of his administration. I suspect that after this is over, the lowest possible presidential JAR is going to be called “Bushian.” I think (hope) that even a president as contemptuous of public support as Bush is will be constrained from further rash actions when his approval levels hit the teens.
bg @
55
I”m not an attorney, and I’ve served on a jury with a “lawyered up” defense in DC. My memory was that the jury really scrupulously tried to consider only the evidence presented, and that the foreman was able to reduce outside speculation to a minimum.
The circus at the defense table didn’t get the outcome (acquittal) that they wanted.
FWIW.
Yeah, pardoning Libby is right up Bush’s alley. He sticks it to the American people every chance he gets and no one has been able to stop his insanity yet. But, hey, democracy works.
dharmarific @ 35
I’m with you!
tulip @ 81,
If there is money to stolen, urh, made, them these booggers seem to find away. This country has suffered through this kind of crap before and has survived but it is crazy to keep going through it. Snake Oil Salesmen are what they are, sounds good but rots out your guts!
scory @ 83
Did the jury have the feeling that because the defendant had to have so many lawyers that he appeared to be more culpable than if defendant had had only one lawyer (one lawyer – as most of us regular folk are accustomed to as the norm)?
Thank you for visiting the Lake, Elizabeth. And welcome to Michigan; hope you haven’t forgotten the winters here and are dressed for the weather!! Although Ann Arbor won’t be as bad today as I’ve heard the Lake Michigan shoreline is on the west side (shout out to my friends who are struggling back right now along I-94).
A fundamental problem I see with comparing the Libby trial and the underlying rush-to-war that spawned the outing of Valerie Plame to the Watergate break-in and the ensuing scandal is that the media has changed significantly since the early 70’s. We could trust the Washington Post to do its job, could trust Walter Cronkite to give it to us straight on Vietnam…
And now Cathie Martin on the stand under oath makes it clear that the media has been co-opted, is corrupted and indirectly complicit (if not fully complicit). We can no longer trust that the American public will be informed of the magnitude of the cancer on the presidency this time.
We, the people, are now tasked with self-publishing the news and breaking through the barriers imposed by corporate lock-in on print, broadcast and cable media. I’m not certain we will be able to overcome that hurdle in the time frame required to force adequate legal and legislative action. But what are our options? This is do-or-die for this democracy.
I wish I had a question for you, Elizabeth, but I think you are so articulate in your writing that I need only wait for your next work — or read your book. Thanks again for coming to the Lake.
(And thanks to Jane, Christy, Siun et al for bringing us a fine guest contributor today!)
Ms de la Vega,
Welcome to The Lake !
looks like another wandering tribeswoman has found her way home *g*
Assuming that the Libby trial comes up with the goods on the machinations of this administrations, why would Bush want to pardon somebody who has brought him nothing but grief?
From today’s Sunday Herald, Scotland:
America ‘poised to strike at Iran’s nuclear sites’ from bases in Bulgaria and Romania
PRESIDENT BUSH is preparing to attackIran’snuclearfacilities before the end of April and the US Air Force’s new bases in Bulgaria and Romania would be used as back-up in the onslaught, according to an official report from Sofia.
“American forces could be using their two USAF bases in Bulgaria and one at Romania’s Black Sea coast to launch an attack on Iran in April,” the Bulgarian news agency Novinite said.
http://www.sundayherald.com/in…..omania.php
I learned quite a bit about immunity from lhp’s great post this morning. Anyone who skipped it should go back and check. And Elizabeth de la Vega’s reminiscences of protest, upheaval and illegal government activities from 35 years ago jostled my memory about these times as much as anything I’ve read recently. I remember a lot, but we all forget things for one reason or another. Thanks, Ms. de la Vega. Marvin Gaye, indeed. Played CJ and the Fish for my kids on a road trip last summer. They’d never heard him before. Eventually we were all singing “One, two three, four, what are we fighting for?”
Re the queries on whether or not juries are intimididated by all the Gucci lawyers at Libby’s long table (do they sit him as Jesus among the Apostles?), from my experience on juries, they are a bit, but not nearly as much as they are by the competence of same and of the prosecution. One faux pas toward or deliberate slighting of the jury or jurors can screw up the best defense or prosecution bigtime.
I’m looking forward to having a defense attorney joining the fdl blogging next week. She’s gotta blow our minds to outdo Marcy’s Thursday briliance.
Those who are incapable of committing great crimes do not readily suspect them in others. – Francois de La Rochefoucauld
There may be a different dynamic to this episode (different than Watergate). This time, much more of the situation, the facts, the information, is available to many more of those people who are capable of suspicion – perhaps even inclined to it. The MSM is still the gatekeeper for most, this is true, but just as the MSM hasn’t yet realized its own mortality, George W. Nixon and Darth Cheney haven’t figured out that they ultimately won’t get away with their crimes also because of the brave new world of widespread, largely unfiltered information. Hmm – maybe not an apprpriate name-slur there; Nixon was pretty smart.
God bless Al Gore for inventing the Internets.
ET – I share your appreciation of Ms. de la Vega’s account … and I’m singing along as well.
Katymine -thanks for reminding folks about Marcy on AAR Phoenix – Jane will also be on today so firepups will want to get their streams ready to listen in. The third guest is Greg Palast:
http://www.1480kphx.com/
hmbnancy @
70
I don’t think Joe Wilson’s credibility has been destroyed in any way. He’s a hero.
Rayne says:
A fundamental problem I see with comparing the Libby trial and the underlying rush-to-war that spawned the outing of Valerie Plame to the Watergate break-in and the ensuing scandal is that the media has changed significantly since the early 70’s. We could trust the Washington Post to do its job, could trust Walter Cronkite to give it to us straight on Vietnam…
They were better then, but not perfect. Cronkite was a Warmongering Patriotic John Wayne type of journalist before he saw the blood and guts up close and personal. He saw the light and found his conscience. Then, too he was the biggest and most respected, etc…
Today, we’ve got dozens of teevee newz personalities whom we trust. Except for Keith Olbermann, they are all predominantly administration lackeys. Some have come around a bit, lately.
Notta Flatlander @ 93
That’s why they want to shut it down – net neutrality must be fought for.
hackworth @96,
Cronkite, Huntley & Brinkley… . One big difference today from those days is that TV news is almost as much entertainment as it is news. The news departments were pretty separate beasts in the old days.
Jay @ 64
I guess forming a couple of good questions and pressing them like mad to prospective presidential candidates might help, as in:
Senator/Governor/Your Highness, do you believe that former public servants who have been convicted of felony charges against the people of the US, ie “white collar crimes” be allowed to ever serve in any positions that influence or directly relate to governing of said peoples? If so, how does this differ than ordinary felons who are no longer able to vote, let alone influence governmental policies?
Thanks for the insight Elizabeth and it’s great to see you here.
As one in the same age group but not as involved before, I think some of us ‘boomers’ feel this is a chance for atonement. We should have been paying closer attention over the last 20 years.
hackworth at 96.
Actually Cronkite got to see “the blood and guts up close and personal” a bit before 1968. As a UPI reporter he landed with the troops at Normandy.
hackworth (96) — somewhere along the way I know I’ve read that liberalism is self-correcting, that it adapts to facts as they change.
Grant me that Cronkite from that perspective was liberal; he may have been conservative, but he was honest enough with himself as well as the American public that LBJ knew Vietnam was toast when he “lost” Cronkite.
In a time when the media are issued their talking points every morning by the RNC (hello, Faux News) and build their news around it, Cronkite is to be seen as a hero.
He’s not Murrow, but damn, he’s not stinking-of-fermented-Kool-Aid Sean Hannity.
Nope. Now, part of that might have been the composition of the jury (including myself), but there was a general sense of mistrust with the hoops that the defense was trying to present. It came off as, “Don’t watch the man behind the curtain, here’s a shiny ball.”
Sorry for the delay — laundry and baking. Banana Walnut Muffins. Yum.
An explanation for why each generation has to relearn the lessons from Watergate and Vietnam is that Americans have not ever accepted the idea fiercely debated from the beginning of the republic, that a democracy thrives on its members being well informed and expressing their opinions at the ballot box. Hamilton felt only the learned upper classes(literate white men) could be expected to ruminate over important issues of the day and offer up considered opinions to their representatives. Jefferson, in contrast, kept ever convinced in the abilities of the common people(farmers, shopkeepers, factory workers, tradesmen) to contribute to political discourse in vital ways. Where we find ourselves today, with 50% non-participation and the active 50% trying to get a fair shake from Fox news and O’Reilly, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc, added to the MSM news operations, is in a quandary, information-wise. Today, we dial up, generally speaking, the slant of “news” that we tend to agree with, be it Rush or left blogostania. Add to the incredible mix of information sources, the pace of American daily life, job insecurity, commuting time, and just plain tiredness on a given day, and Jefferson’s idea looks in doubt. Look what happens when too many of US, citizens, reporters, judges, prosecutors, congressmen and women, are asleep at the wheel. We let a president be APPOINTED, we then let an unnecessary war begin, and elected the ones who falsely led us to Iraqistan. The enemy is US. Wake up America and do the Jefferson thing! cdk
David Kinkaid @ 104: “…Jefferson’s idea looks in doubt.”
Actually, so does Hamilton’s. Remember that the idiots steering our bus off the cliff are the very same affluent white male elites that Hamilton put so much faith in. And it’s the shopkeepers, etc, who tried in this election just past to apply some brakes, but the elites at the wheel are determined to ignore them. If anything, the fact that the American electorate finally caught on to what is happening despite the best efforts of the lapdog press suggests that Jefferson was on to something.
Marcy, Jane and Sarge!
Re: “President Richard Millhouse Nixon” in Ms. de la Vega’s original post — the correct spelling is “Milhous”, though I must confess to having sometimes called him quite another kind of house.
I never thought I’d live to see a president I trusted even less than Nixon.
I’m riveted by the bloggers, commenters and the entire trial. Thanks FDL and apologies to my family! I voted for George Mcgovern when I proudly turned 18 in 1972… a college student and Concientious Objector living with my grandparents. Grandpa “believed” in Nixon, Grandma thought he was a crook. The parallels between those ugly times and these Bush Times is amazing to me and the same drek is about to hit the fan. Pass the popcorn and ready the impeachment papers!
Christy Hardin Smith @
75
As Dave Niehouse, Seattle Mariners play-by-play announcer, would say after a grand-slam home-run,
“Get out the mustard and the sandwich bread, Grandma, because its grand salami time!”
Fitz pitching questions to Cheney. I’d give up my first born — hell, I’d give up all my born to watch it. Blazing chin music.
I’d be around six Guiness nitrogen-pour pints deep in the end zone to receive the kick-off and scream,
“Get out your umbrellas, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, because it’s going to be raining cum in the courtroom.”
Sorry, guess I’ll never make it as a sportscaster. Ah cain’t stop mixin muh metafours, an I cain’t stop suckin suds.
Hey, anybody out there tried mixing absinthe and Guiness?
Come to think of it, Scooter’s defense seems to be a reasonable facsimile thereof, don’t it?
Della, give Paul a call and tell him to find out what’s being delivered to Wells’s office for lunch & dinner.
Ms. de la Vega was a guest on KGO radio (San Francisco) a couple weeks ago. Ronn Owens was the host and was totally antagonstic towards her. He was on her case before she even finished the her first sentence… total attack mode, and he made no bones about how he didn’t ‘click’with her. The more surprising thing, though, was the call-ins they aired – most of the callers ripped her to shreds – calls seemed awfully selective and one-sided, and totally not in sync with the area. For the Bay Area, I thought these folks were acting like hannity-ville…as if KSFO and Melanie Morgan and clan aren’t bad enough!Of course, maybe because both stations are run by the same people and now owned by Disney., there’s an explanation.Things just ain’t like they used to be. Anyway, Ms. de la Vega, I wish you good luck and hope you and your book do well, and I’m sorry for the treatment you received at KGO.
Wonderful post, Ms. de la Vega. You did transport me right back to the Nixon years.
You said:
I believe that as much as we don’t want to stereotype others that there are some “types” hidden in the hard-drives of our brains. We learn early in life that the good fairy is beautiful and the evil troll is very ugly. Then the movies teach us what the criminals look like and what the heroes look like. We also recognize the music that announces the bad guy has entered the scene. The white collar criminal wears his hair slicked back. There are so many kinds of roles and casting directors look for “type”. They wouldn’t be able to do this if we didn’t have some shared types that we recognize. We take these “types” and consciously or unconsciously transfer some parts of these stereotypes into our views of real life.
So we do want to believe the people in the real-life roles of good guy or gal (minister, nurse, teacher, community volunteer) are ethical and law-abiding and that it can take a lot to convince us otherwise. For many of us it fits our perception of the world.
Of course, we are all more complex than this — but the point I want to make is that—-
I hope the jury at the Libby trial harbors at least a little of the stereotype that says the prosecutor is always trustworthy and would not bring a case to trial without being very sure of his case. Fitzpatrick certainly looks the part of the hardworking hero.
I’m so looking forward to reading more about the trial here at FDL. I’m learning so much.
Your insight is a revelation to me. Thank you for your post and thank you for your articles over the last few years about the Bush administration.
There are so few people who think that the lawlessness of this administration must be addressed in a formal way or our republic will suffer permanent damage. What’s to stop the next war-mongoring, civil liberty ignoring, constitution shredding president from misbehaving if we don’t hold this one accountable?
As a contributor to The Nation please consider challenging the arguments of contributers like David Corn who specifically argue against impeachment.
I look forward to hearing from you in February. Thanks EdlV.
Ms. de la Vega:
I have greatly enjoyed your posts elsewhere and this one also. Thanks so much for weighing in – it is amusing for me and I’m sure many others to have you share your trepidation at posting here. You certainly have me in your camp, as I’ve had to work at getting up the gumption to fling my opinions out. It’s always a relief to be reminded that fame and notoriety do not necessarily lead to hubris – although that is the norm alas with the present administration.
I must say though that I was a bit taken aback at your equanimity and general willingness to tolerate the sluggishness of folks dealing with Haldeman’s “gobbledegook.” Both from the standpoint of the horrific death-counts (thousands on one side, hundreds of thousands on the other, leaving out maimings, other physical injuries, psychological effects, and the almost-certain long-lasting cancerous effects of hundreds of tons of vaporized depleted-uranium)and the dramatic erosion of our former democratic tri-partite check-and-balance form of government, I feel a tone of far greater urgency is called for.
Please reassure me if you can.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 20
I was wondering about pardons. Does one have to be convicted to get a pardon?