As someone who is not overly enamored of large marches as an effective political tool in this media era, I nonetheless understand they have value for those attending as they can be extremely motivating and inspirational, not to mention a lot of fun. The problem, from an organizational standpoint, is that it's hard to justify all the effort that goes into putting them together relative to the amount of media impact they have. In this day and age the media are just basically bored with marches in general and are only slightly more enthusiastic about covering them than the first round semifinals of the Betty Crocker Bake-Off.
But that does not stop yon Instacracker from taking his right wing victimology for a short constitutional. Via Roy, we heare him whinge:
Protests are tired in general. Media reporting, however, seems selective — there wasn't much reporting on the "pro life" protests in Washington on Monday, perhaps because there's no way to spin that against Bush.
I'm sure if Mel Gibson had shown up at the pro-life rally with a couple of Cosmos under his belt singing "To All the Girls I've Loved" it would've been all over CNN too, and Reynolds would've had to fall back on mewling about the tragicly unfair dearth of Good Time News from Iraq. But as the Knob of Knoxville once again demonstrates his profound ignorance about how the media operates, it does inadvertently lead to an interesting question — are the celebrities one must produce in order to get the media past their big collective yawns offering the right message for the moment?
Don't get me wrong, I admire all of those who showed up who were willing to publicly speak out against the war, and believe that their willingness to do so despite knowing that they will be demonized by the right wing noise machine is extremely admirable. But with a war opposed now by some 75% of the country, I'm not sure having it promoted as a "fringe left" cause was the absolute best plan. And I say that as someone who would be considered by most to be a fringe lefty — I'm not sure having me standing up there would've been a great idea, either. I don't agree with John Murtha about much of anything other than his position on the war, and that's what made him a great candidate to start pushing back against Dick Cheney and his merry band of neocon nutballs. Trouble is, finding a celebrity with Murtha-type baggage that the cameras want to glom onto is quite difficult — and overnight the Mighty Wurlitzer would instantly turn them into a drooling zealot anyway. Remember, the subject of Michael J. Fox and whether he was "faking" his Parkinson's symptoms for political gain was a serious topic of discussion amongst serious people during the last election cycle. If there is a limit to how far Pills Limbaugh will go to smear someone who isn't doing a St. Vitus' dance of love for George Bush, we haven't found it yet.
I don't have any answers, just making an observation.
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ESTEN!
Frotz! er, Fitz!
JANE **hugs**
Hey, I’m a Betty Crocker Homemaker of Tomorrow (1966). Does that count for anything?
Gotta love Fitz exposing the sycophant press like we never could.
Answers, answers. I don’t have any either, but when confronted with insurmountable obstacles, I am constitutionally biased toward end runs.
:)
It may sound hokie, but watching the anti-rally brought back memories of sitting in the airman’s club in my uniform watching and wishing I could join the party,
No such luck.
Dear Ms Jane,
When Mr HotFlash and I were discussin’ the meaning of life the other night, and the question came up, “But what can one person do?” the answer was “Jane Hamsher.” We stand inspired.
OT- I want to order ‘Anatomy of Deceit’ but Amazon.com still does not show a release date. When will it be released? Barnes and Noble says 1/28, but I’d rather use the link here to give credit. Anoyone know when Amazon will start sending it out?
solai @ 9
I just got an email that mine shipped. Go ahead and order!
I have been dubious of marches and all that stuff for some time, but I have recently found a new rationale for such things. They do not intimidate the powers-that-be as they did in the 60’s but they do enhearten those of us who are not represented by our elected representatives, our government, our media and our institutions.
This helps.
I was at the Sept. 2005 rally and part of the whole weekend was going to the congresscritters’ offices to lobby on monday before getting back on a plane.
Gilliard posted MahBlog’s Protesting 101 which I think makes some great points.
As for this particular one, I didn’t go to D.C. The reality of it is that the American people are with us and one day the media just might catch up.
Ms. Jane
Sorry for being a dolt. I should have first welcomed you back. Prayers still in the forcast.
The opposition is now in the dangerous land of backlash and blowback.
That I am digging.
Just wish that the larger amount of press the rally got this weekend than past rallies isn’t because the opposition is trying to wallpaper over the unseemly stuff that is crawling all over the place. It’s one thing to suspect they’ve been doing this to us, but another to have Cathie Martin testify to it…are they doing it right now?
There’s also the swing vote folks who are just now joining the fray; they haven’t had a full broadside yet from the vicious vituperative mouth-breathing basement dwellers. Will they backslide? I hope not, I hope they are growing in awareness and getting a spine.
Oh, and the March for Womens’ Lives was a must do weekend event. It really energized the movement. I wouldn’t have missed that one.
I think about marches the way I think about bumperstickers: they will not convince anyone who is not already convinced, but they do give those who are convinced (but timid) the social permission to believe what they believe and to say so. Like it or not, most people are conformists and hesitate greatly to say or do anything that deviates from what they percieve to be group norms. Knowing that someone, or 100,000 someones, think the way you do breaks down the inhibitions. Of course, this means that marches and bumperstickers were more useful in 2003 than in 2007, when the polls tell us that the group norm is now to oppose the war. No one needs the sanction of the group to say so now.
HotFlash @
4
So was I (1974). And I’m a guy (bachelor living class). Captain of the basketball team and Betty Crocker at the same time.
It wasn’t pretty.
I got a tie-tack.
Susan Sarandon! Annie Savoy! Janet Weiss!!
Sure there is, Instacracker. How about the fact that, despite stacking the courts with right-wing judges and despite several years of a completely subservient Congress, Dubya never took a single step to actually ban abortion when he had the chance?
He’s not on your side, Instacracker. He and the GOP have been running a huge scam on you to get your vote. And you’re too busy frothing at the mouth to notice you’ve been had.
Fonda looks fabulous! This is probably the real reason Ole Scratch and the rest of the right wing horrors hate her.
p.s. It’s great to see ‘Jane Hamsher’ in the by-line several times today. Good on you, Jane!!
mamayaga @ 16
Polls are one thing, but having the experience of other humans marching with you is a validation that will last forever. As my grandmaster said about meditating under a waterfall, “Everyone should do it. Once. When they are young.”
Utter disaster is a great motivator. That looming disaster is not yet immediate and utterly invasive enough to motivate the general populace.
One day it might be, but not right now.
HotFlash @
4
Wow! I was “Betty Crocker Homemaker of Tommorow” from my HS class in 1965!
woof!
nice observations, Jane.
Rayne @ 21
Second that.
I think the most important impact that peace marches like this have is how the rest of the world looks at us. They must appreciate that we are not all nutcases.
Jane,
I respectfully disagree.
I think marches are very important, but not because of the tv coverage.
The march communicates the message that something is so wrong that people are willing to disrupt their daily lives to express themselves about it.
Also, a camradery is borne, and a sense of identity is developed. And there is an impulse to make those around you commit. Over time, the radical becomes seen as common sense to those who share our view.
The current soft opposition to the Iraq War in opinion polls is largely worthless. People are still dying. The bureaucracy of war chugs along. The pols make a few sanctimonious speeches. Nothing is done.
Only when the radical — LEAVE NOW — becomse common sense will politicans feel safe to act.
One of the things that someone wrote about on one of these blog thingies yesterday was that it was great to see so many young people out marching.
For young people to have the experience of being surrounded by people of all ages and races coming together for the same cause, it is an important experience. Often it motivates them to get more involved when they get home.
If there is no other reason, this one is good enough for me to keep doing these kinds of things.
I have never been a great “marcher” either. But, from what I’ve read, those of us who are of the “march age” take their kids along too. Like passing the torch. I thought that this was really important in the marches about reproductive rights. There’s a generation now that has mostly taken this for granted.
jayt @ 17
Jayt, cool! I figure that I won because I knew the definition of denier. I still have my sterling silver charm. Never had a charm bracelet, so it’s still in the box. Although I feel a little envious. You got Homemaker of Tomorrow, I wasn’t allowed to take drafting. I was a girl, and everyone knows that drafting is done with a pen(i)sil, which girls don’t have.
Jane!
Not a solution, but my rambling observation….
When I go to big city political demos, the speakers all sound so unhappy – I always wonder why they expect anyone to join them in torment.
My fantasy demos would be organized by some religious order under a vow of silence. All that listening would make for well chosen speakers.
None of the silent organizers would be jockeying for mike time, either.
In the real world, at big lefty demos the usual ANSWER-chosen rhetoric appeals to dysthymic masochists.
This begs the QUESTION – who pays for the repetition of this reliably success-proof public outreach?
Hmm. A prominent (inescapable) organization sufficiently well-funded as to show up with lots of material resources at just about any progressive demo of note. Centralized power structure. Participation tanks messaging of host orgs.
Qui bono?
Who funds?
[And anyone remember what proportion of active American Communist Party members during the 60’s were actually law enforcement? Just asking….]
montag @ 23
Montag, I have been catching up on late nights, and I thank you for your service to our country.
Well, I don’t think having Jane Fonda there helped the cause any. Personally I stayed away in part because the same group sponsored the last big march in June 2005 and I thought they were obnoxious. The speakers kept the crowd waiting for hours while they refused to cut down on their speaking time. Quite frankly, I think it is incredibly thoughtless to make people (including children and elderly folks) who have often traveled a long way to participate, wait in the heat or the cold so you can have your 15 minutes of fame.
Unfortunately, having Tim Robins, Susan Sarandon and Jane Fonda speak plays right into the right wing characterization of the “hate America first” dissenters – and makes the whole thing easy to dismiss.
On the other hand, so many people I know are so frustrated at not being able to do anything to stop what’s happening (other than elect a Democratic Congress) – at least protesting is “doing something.”
Terry Olson @ 27
Good point. This is not lost on the rest of the world. But we/they are wondering why it is not having more effect. Ms Pelosi, can you tell us? Sen Biden?
Lovely. The media is “bored” with demonstrations. The media thought it was “fun” to make fun of Al Gore in 2000 by printing lies about him, over and over.
So the petty whims of the former fourth estate (no longer an estate, more of a fun-house now) decide who runs our country, and how it is run. Just lovely.
Unless, of course, it is really *more* than just the petty whims of reporters. In that case, I must call it *ugly*. Very.
I guess it was September 2005 – in any event it was extremely hot.
HotFlash @ 31
Wow, my junior high school must have been unknowingly radical, because I was allowed to take (and thoroughly enjoyed) 2 semesters of drafting. And, I was the only femme, so that made it extra special. Typing? That was required too. Probably would have gotten and deserved a D, but the teacher took pity on me. I was 12 at the time.
Hotflash, see my #24.
I had the same reaction as you, Jane. While I was grateful for their participation, the presence of right-wing target favorites like Fonda, Penn, Sarandon and Robbins runs the risk of enabling the Wurlitzer to paint the group as “fringe” rather than the 70 of the country.
I said in my diary after our rootz visit to DiFi and Boxer
“at least once in their life everyone should stand on the Mall with their chosen tribe”.
I still think it is one of the most powerful experiences a person can have. I was thinking about the gay march on Washington I attended in 1987 but I remember the anti-Vietnam War marches had much the same feeling although I wasn’t in DC for those.
I just don’t understand the clear hatred, & then backhanded compliments towards street protests. Why are you so intolerant? I’d sure rather be out in the cold in northern Wisco with 70 other people, than typing away in my living room. What’s your problem anyway? To be frank, it’s making me lose interest.
Whenever I see Sarandon and Robbins, I am reminded of their smug support for Nader in 2000 and their condescending attitude toward all who suggested that the differences between Bush and Gore were so great that progressives could not afford to cast their votes for Nader.
To my knowlege, neither of the them has acknowledged their collosal error in judgment in this regard.
And now they protest a war that would never have come about if Gore were elected in 2000…
Jane,
I agree. I think marches are good for the attendees but bad for the movement. The events are fun but the speeches are usually very tired. That doesn’t mean I don’t think they shouldn’t happen. I think the morale and fun of the attendees is a good thing.
But MSM will never be able to cover these correctly and it doesn’t matter how “well behaved” the crowd is. Call it the Gay Pride Parade rule. It doesn’t matter how many “Lesbians Saving Orphans” or “Gays Serving Meals to Seniors” floats there are, the cameras will always focus on the drag queen on roller skates. The trick for the community is to not get mad at the drag queen and then try to exclude them from the next parade. There is no way to “act straight” enough for the Media with today’s “liberals are loopy” meme. The reality of the event doesn’t matter so I say, let’s party.
So Lieberman is saying today he might vote Republican in ‘08. Does that mean he might vote for anti-war Republican Hagel, if Hegal is the candidate? If so, wouldn’t that be a bit weird? A bit like Joe voting against himself perhaps?
HotFlash @ 33
If you refer to time in the army, I didn’t do much. I just did my best not to kill anyone or be killed. That’s what sensible people do in the midst of useless, stupid wars.
To borrow a phrase, this isn’t a sprint … I wrote yesterday about the contrast between this protest and what’s going on at the Capitol Building, so just go there if you want. I’ll wait….
OK, now here’s the thing – it’s going to take a lot to get this Congress off the dime. Protests aren’t going to do it alone, nor is writing to our congresscritters. Until they see that not only do we want out of Iraq but they have to start worrying about their own jobs or the stability of the country are we going to get any real action. That Jim Webb voted against Chris Dodd’s proposed bill this week just amplifies that point, I think.
I am irritated with the eagerness on the part of many Democrats to disassociate ourselves from the “fringe left”. This is a self-defeating tactic: by agreeing with the Republicans that views to the left of the mainstream Democratic position are illegitimate, and also agreeing that it’s just fine if the media do not present such views, the political debate in this country is artificially shifted to the right.
The result of this is that single-payer health care is treated as a fringe idea, not serious. Demanding that the Democrats defund the war, not just the surge, is unspeakable. Calling for impeachment is not something that can be said on TV.
This silencing of the left hurts Democratic moderates, even if they do not share those views. If the left cannot speak, then the natural process of compromise means that we wind up splitting the difference between centrist Dems and the far right. Robust leftist voices would probably move the compromise closer to the point of view that Democratic moderates espouse in the first place.
Democrats can also learn lessons from the right: notice how Republicans manage to disagree with their more extreme wingnuts without trying to make them un-persons.
Valley Girl @ 38
sigh.
I won the test (1977), but Principal Cordano intervened and snatched away my brief hope of domestic bliss.
My earlier run for Homecoming Queen was – I still maintain – an irrelevant premise for this gross abuse of administrative power. ;)
Valley Girl @ 30
My politically uninvolved youngest daughter drove from college in Ohio with some friends to participate in the Pro-Choice March in Washington several years ago. I was shocked but happy that she and her friends were motivated enough to go.
It was truly inspiring for her – she came away transformed by the dynamic of the group experience. In particular she was moved by the older women at the march (some of the first proponents of birth control), and the GW Med students who were participating as future pro-choice doctors.
America ‘poised to strike at Iran’s nuclear sites’ from bases in Bulgaria and Romania
Report suggest that ‘US defensive ring’ may be new front in war on terror. By Gabriel Ronay
PRESIDENT BUSH is preparing to attackIran’snuclearfacilities before the end of April and the US Air Force’s new bases in Bulgaria and Romania would be used as back-up in the onslaught, according to an official report from Sofia.
http://www.sundayherald.com/in…..omania.php
HotFlash @ 11
well said. I also like the idea that they are sending a signal to the international community that there are a goodly number of people who are not happy with the status quo. It makes for good global PR.
There are two more years of Bush-Cheney regime in your face
be damned to you administration who could really care less about
the welfare of the American people. There is a momentum starting
to swell in opposition to everything about this regime. The Libby
trial will galvanize the nation as the weeks go on as Fitz’s web
will ensare Cheney and others. Public marches, demonstrations,
gatherings, protests are an important frabric of a vibrant
Democracy. Sure an opposition always exist that will demonize and
distort the message of the Protest. So we accept it and push back!
If we believe in the power of truth to power then we use all
means of communication. Power to the People. Long live those
who Protest.
I think, when we’ve all had enough and millions of us finally show up in rank all over the streets of Washington, our fearless leader will take note. Until that time comes, he’ll ignore us all. I hope there are more of these marches scheduled and that the crowd grows larger every time.
Rick Penn @ 42
I’ve been involved in plenty of protests – large and small. United for Peace & Justice does a terrible job of organizing, could care less about the people protesting, and is a rather polarizing organization.
The peace movement could & should do better.
Instacracker!- ROTFLMAO – Thank God you are back!
HotFlash @ 4
jayt @ 17
HotFlash @ 31
Valley Girl @ 38
Life was not easy in the ’60’s. For instance, I was born in Port Huron and grew up there, left in 1969. I didn’t even hear of the Port Huron Statement until the mid ’70’s. (If you can remember the ’60’s…)
BTW, three (3) “Betty Crocker Homemakers of Tomorrow” have commented on this thread. And, Kirk mighta been a 4th.
HotFlash @ 31
I don’t know what y’all are talking about. I took a one semester class in bachelor living, where I learned how to make breakfast rolls and to sew a button back on a shirt. Evidently, this qualified all of us guys to take the written test.
So, all of the basketball guys took the written test, where we sat around trying to come up with the most ridiculous answers to the questions that we could think of.
And then I won the stupid thing.
To repeat myself, Hotflash, did you read that I also was a BCHofT? 1965. !!!!
*xyz @ 43
Neither have I, xyz, and I never will. Bush and Gore were both jokers, and both way too tied up in the corporate world to have made good Presidents. If Gore wasn’t such a joker, he wouldn’t have “lost” in Florida, because he would have picked up enough other states that it wouldn’t have mattered.
As for what Robbins, Fonda, and Sarandon mean to others, I can’t say. Many folks probably don’t even remember who they are any more. My own perception of Fonda isn’t a good one, but Robbins and Sarandon I respect. I just don’t take their opinions all that seriously.
I write all this to say that their backing of Nader doesn’t mean much at all to most folks, and ought to mean less to some. If they think it’s an error, I suspect they’ll say so. In the meantime, why not grant them the right to think differently, and perhaps, be wrong and still worth respecting?
Ikirk murphy @ 49
I won in 1963….am I the oldest Betty Crocker Homemaker Award winner here?
I understood the concept of casseroles. But I still was not permitted to take shop. No girls allowed. We have come along way, Baby!
[Mod Note; please do not use “Quote this Comment” on this comment. It will be a margin buster.]
I coulda been a contender….
Evenin’ Firedogs,
agree, agree, agree. I also make an effort to wear my best June Cleaver Drag when participating in hopes of letting others less inclined ‘to join the hippies’ a signal that it’s okay -
pol @ 54
pol, marching on DC is symbolic, but also very expensive and time-consuming. However, the Federal Govt is everywhere — how convenient for us! Post offices, recruitment centers, FBI offices, Homeland Security, borders, lots of places where we can have low-cost, low-maintenance protests. And of course, newspapers, TV, cable and radio staions. They are selling us down the river as fast as they can.
There’s Susan Sarandon. And… there’s Liz Taylor.
Valley Girl @ 58
“Anarchist’s Cookbook“
Wow! Now we have four (4) Betty Crocker Homemakers of Tomorrow who have outed themselves, and one wanna be! HotFlash, jayt, VG, AliceB, and Kirk!
HotFlash @ 67
hehe…
Judging from Penn, Sarandon, Robbins, Baldwin and others, I don’t know that Hill has Hollywood locked up.
Alice B @ 62
I won in 1963….am I the oldest Betty Crocker Homemaker Award winner here?
I understood the concept of casseroles. But I still was not permitted to take shop. No girls allowed. We have come along way, Baby!
Alice, you are welcome to use my drillpress and bandsaw anytime.
The most effective rallies I know of have been those of Los Madres de la Plaza de Mayo, in memory of Los Desperacidos. But they are highly focused and are the outward face of a movement, not a short-term expression of protest. They meet many of Mahablog’s Protest 101 rules, too, if you think about it.
It’s interesting, I believe the war will require the same level of domestic violence Vietnam did to really end it. it will take people fighting and dying in the streets of the USA before the congress-vermin will really take it seriously.
All the blather in the world won’t get the American people’s attention like the gal at Kent State.
Blood will run again, in the streets of the US, before this war will end. I hate that it is so, but after the performance of the Dems so far, they haven’t the spine to cut off funding.
I did it in ‘69 in Berkeley. Two shot pellets and a club to the head. I was 14 at the time.
God damn it, Jane; so glad you’re back. Once again, you hit the nail right on the fucking head.
Good vibes and bestest wishes from a fellow three-time cancer
loserwinner!bicmon
1963
1965
1966
1974
1977
Nice!
It is interesting to think about this issue in conjunction with the huge march by Latinos/as a while back. A million I think. Others might know better, but I think it had a major impact. Just all of this group coming out together. Right after that the clamor to “send em all back” pretty much dissipated. It pointed out very clearly that the U.S. can’t do without this larger group economically.
I while back, I was also part of the million plus demonstration in Spain (Barcelona) against the Iraq war (just happened to be there). The next election in Spain saw a major change.
I don’t think political action is a zero sum game. Different sorts of activities impact different people. The frustration at this point is to try to do something that will make a difference in terms of the war losses. Yes we won the election, and 75% of Americans are against the war, but there is a real threat of backsliding on this, particularly since MSM seems so gung ho (NYT & Post esp, but others too).
Last May at the anti war rally here in NYC, a few of us worked “The Kids PEACE Tent” and spent the entire day practicing the peace we were preaching. We had games (putt for peace, dunk for peace, spin art for peace, puppets for peace, chess for peace) etc. and in the midst of madness several hundred of us enjoyed each other as we “stood up to be counted.”
IMHO, too often the marches are about talking down to instead of including/engaging the participants. (This includes the cult of celebrity and the “rockstarism” of many anti war advocates.)
In terms of media savvy, that time bomb is waiting to explode, and I suspect a virtual revolution is near at hand.
Wanna set up a virtual anti war video march on YOUTUBE? I’ll make a video if you will…we could string ‘em together and see how many videos we can get. Then we can send all our videos to the WH and crash their servers … Bet they’d hear that:)
Okay, who else we got here. Any National Merit Scholars? Fulbright? What?
HotFlash @ 71
Alice, you are welcome to use my drillpress and bandsaw anytime.
I’ll bite — what is the concept of the casserole?
I’m a “Road Scholar!”
. . . and one Homecoming Queen;)
Fulbright and many others. The most embarrassing was H.S. cheerleading (that is painful).
big media obviously does not care about marchers unless its the march of dimes or a sponsor filled fun run. The main reason I don’t run out and protest often is due to my rural location and due to my experience of being arrested for no good reason when exercising my right to assemble peacefully. The power of demonstrating with tens or hundreds of thousands should not be dismissed easily. The action itself leads to greater awareness and greater resolve for change in ways not easily measured (much like blogs). Protests need to build up to much larger numbers over an extended period of time in order to demand attention, imo. It’s a last resort, not a quick fix. At this point in time no stone should be left unturned until the killing stops.
As one speaker said (with thousands of others) at the DC demonstration yesterday…
Not one more death
Not one more dollar
Not one more day
I just watched this weeks episode of NOW on PBS. Laurie David who produced An Inconvenient Truth mentioned her efforts to distribute 50K copies to public schools for free. They contacted a science teachers organization (from public schools) who told them no, they would not help provide a list of teachers or help in any other manner. Ultimately the reason science teachers would not help is due to their acceptance of 6 million dollars in support from Exxon and a few big oil members on their board who would not allow it. Our teachers our media and gawd knows who else are compromised from within.
A war is being waged on us from so many angles. The Dixie Chicks said, Not ready to make nice. We continue to play nice at our peril, I’m afraid.
Everyone who accepts so many of the facts before us as troublesome must act in any and every peaceful way possible. Especially when the people in the seats of power are not listening at all.
Here is a web site where there are lots of B.C. winners hanging around. It seems that they think a reunion would be just peachy. http://tinyurl.com/2bfvps (Hope you all have your pins. They sound quite special.)
This competition is news to me. When I was in high school, I avoided Home Ec. Concocting “recipes” in the chem lab that exploded spectacularly and stunk up the whole school was way more fun.
Hotflash – have actually thought in the past that we have at least 4 Eagle Scouts
HotFlash @ 78
But… but…. those just don’t have the same ring of authenticity as “Betty Crocker Homemaker of Tomorrow”. And, we already know there are lotsa smart people at FDL. But somehow, that other stuff really doesn’t cut it, compared with BCHofT.
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @ 73
Gilliard talks about this and concludes that the war in Nam ended because the army fell apart. I don’t know. I don’t have enough information and certainly am not that close a student of history. But if what he is saying is right, it would seem that there are 2 important things happening here. 1. Yes, the army/marine corps is breaking. 2. It isn’t breaking the same way that it did in Nam. This is a volunteer military, then it was draftees.
Don’t know where this is leading, but I thought he made some interesting points.
HotFlash,
Thanks for the offer, but I now have a workshop to die for. Always figured if I could make a dress, how hard was it to put in a kitchen. Funny, it was fun and easy. Four kitchens later……and three bathrooms and one entire house plumbing…
Didn’t make the march but did watch it. I have been to my fair share and always found them exhilarating but not much of a bang for the buck lately. We need a demonstration that hits the big honchos in the wallet.
HotFlash @ 79
Good way to use old tuna?
Gosh this ‘what the ReichWing loonies are saying about the marches…’ meme is all over dese Internets Jane.
I have to ask you and everyone else who’s going on about this one question:
‘Since when do we of the progressive movement in this country constrain our actions so as to minimize ReichWing attacks on us?’
Do we do that on a woman’s right to choose?
No.
Do we do that on selecting who we are gonna support with ActBlue and our blogging efforts?
No.
Do we do that when we spell out in so many words why George W. Bus and Dick Cheney are more dangerous to our nation, or our Constitution, that a thousand Osama bin Ladens.
No.
So why the concern about some sort of perceived vulnerability with regard to citizens, let me use that word again, citizens peacefully assembling to tell the government:
‘Hell no!’
I say this:
‘I don’t give a fuck what Instacracker, M.Ledeen, D’Snooza or any of the rest of the howling fools of the ReichWing mouthorgan has to say. They’ve been wrong about every single thing they’ve ever said about:
Iraq…
Bush…
The GWOT…
The military…
Our rights…
totally, abjectly, stupidly, irretrievably, amazingly…
consistently wrong!
And 80% of the country knows this. That majority agrees with us. What we in Left Blogistan should be doing is telling this gaggle of evil assclowns to have a nice, big, hot mug of:
STFU!
Telling them that every day. And blogging about why they should do so.
Not navel gazing about what Instashit and the rest of his ilk have on what passes for their ‘minds’.
National Honor Society. National Merit Scholar – the year they ran out of money for scholarships, wouldn’t you know?
Member of the first co-ed class (first female students) to take Industrial Shop/Wood Shop (straight A’s).
One of two first female students in drafting, both in high school and at vocational school (straight A’s).
Worked for 4 years as a draftsperson after two years in drafting/engineering technician co-op student role at GM.
Kirk Murphy -
’sokay, least you don’t have to live down Julie Brown
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrsxpgRooU4
Absolutely agree. There’s nothing like standing and waiting for a march to begin for two to three hours while the celebs say their two cents. It’s inexcusable and speaks volumes about the organizers’ real attitude towards the participants.
Valley Girl @ 68
Okay, but did Betty Crocker get within thirty-four feet of curry? :)
Your reference to the “fringe Left” brings up and issue for me. How is it that O’Reilly, Hannity, Limbaugh, et al never refer to the Left without usin the adjectives the adjectives far, looney or extreme? I always find it amusing that Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi are described as being on the far Left. If these two women are far Left/extreme liberals where on the continuum of “Leftdom” do folks like, say, Che Guevara or Fidel fall?
In addition to demanding a return to the correct name of the party..That’s Democratic, not Democrat, thank you….I think these jokers should be called on this little linguistic trick. Either that or we co-opt the tactic and never refer to the Right without the adjective extremist.
I think the fact that celebrities get so much of the media focus and the Vietnam vets and Iraq vets and military families, who were also there and made powerful statements, are virtually ignored by the cameras, is intentional on the part of the media and contributes to the “far lefty” fringe conception of it.
But if 75% oppose the war, and we write letters to the eds and our congressmen, sign petitions, donate to the appropriate causes, campaign for anti-war candidates – and still feel that nobody is listening, the little people are at a loss as to what else to do next except make a noise, take a stand, be seen, maybe heard, maybe not. The end result is that you will be mocked, scorned, dismissed, villified or all of the above. That’s just the second & third parts of the Ghandi plan! I like to think it means, we’re making progress.
Will it solve anything, one damn thing? I don’t know. But I think many want to relieve their conscience that they have done something, when all else they have tried has failed.
susan @ 85
Susan- for me it was just a means to an end (possible scholarship) at the time. Your chem lab experience sounds great. The only reason I won (I’m sure) is that I happened to find a old, old, volume at the local library that went into details as to “how to win the Betty Crocker contest”, which I devoured with great interest, goal in mind. Actually, the advice was pretty hilarious, and I knew it was “just not me” even at the time. More later, about how this helped me get into grad school…
Other successful marches – the 1930s (I think it was) farmers march on Washington. It all depends on who is doing it, how many, and what the issues are.
If this were only about oil, or the rapture, or Bush’s dad, or armament sales this Iraq mess would all be over (the troops would be home). But with it being framed as an issue of the preservation of Is*ael means it is a very hard nut to crack, and there is real opposition (by some who otherwise would be anti-war) to concluding this war without a particular impact. This is what makes this war so VERY different from Vietnam.
cbl @ 93
only dial-up here, but I’m still relieved…
(and relieved my self-disappeared comment was clear. I feared I seemed to be dissing another commenter’s turn at the purple.)
Guitar_Playing_Bastard @69:
I’m from the same era as you (born ‘55).
Responsible for a little “direct action” myself back in the Vietnam days.
I hope you’re wrong–but I think you’re right.
b.
pol @
54
dharmarific @
44
First time posting – long time lurking.
I agree with pol: I don’t see how marches can be bad for the movement. We have been struggling long and hard to get any kind of response from the people in this country to engage in the debate. Folks are SO busy trying to hold their lives together, and frankly most are so fed up they just don’t pay attention to the garbage Washington is perpetrating on the world.
The larger the crowds, the more the media HAS to take notice. The larger the crowds, the more people will look at it and say: WOW – so many people making the trip to DC to stand up against this government. The bigger and bigger the crowds the scarier it gets for Bush. There is definitely strength in numbers. The blogosphere is great for information sharing, but it doesn’t show numbers. You never really know how many people are with you. The world can’t see all the people protesting by blog.
The world, the country, the Congress, and the president can see the hundreds of thousands in the street of Washington. And he can be afraid of that.
We’ve been asking for years when will the people rise up???? This IS the people rising up. Why are we shooting them down as soon as they do?
Wishing you good health, Jane. Thanks for all the great work you are doing here!!!
gpb – I hope you are wrong too.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 83
Agree 100%. We continue to play nice at our peril. I wonder, did it feel this way in 1776? I wonder if there is some deeper thing happening here, the Central-Control-thing vs the Peer-to-Peer-thing. It feels to me that the Internet is a breakthrough in evolution, and what is being decided now is the path that life on this planet will take. They know it is life or death, we do not think that way and may find ourselves extinct due to our good manners. Note: I am not advocating ruthlessness here, but pragmatic vigilance.
Jane: you had me at The Knob of Knoxville.
Washington DC is like Hollywood and San Francisco and Massachusetts, a mythical place that doesn’t reflect ‘the heartland’ to those who – like Jon Tester – have yet to venture to those exotic lands, or anywhere further than the city closest to the back forty.
Its value as Grand Central Protest Station has worn thin, in part because the media-ocracy there has simply seen too many of them to be bothered to skip their next gin and tonic.
There remains value to events at national media centers, if and only if something novel is being utilized. For that, we need more ‘out-there’ showmen and showwomen (see: Hoffman, Abbie; Pentagon-elevation trick)
I think distributive protests will be more effective. I mean, is it really efficient (or energy-efficient) to log frequent flier miles and all-day drives to achieve what we might in our own backyards?
Harnessing the organizational power of the Tubes, we ought to select regional and state ‘precinct captains’ whose role is to network with bloggers within smaller areas all over their turf. Sharing organizational ideas within these smaller group frameworks, rallies, marches, social actions, picnics and even group social service provision could be setup to take place in cities and towns coast to coast.
Example: a National Day of Caring for Health could be established. In some places, groups could organize medical professionals to provide diabetes screens or confidential STD screens for adolescents or whatever. In others, groups might simply visit VA hospitals or nursing homes, with cookies and flowers and good cheer. But they’d be united across the country via a common armband, and flyers advocating single-payer healthcare legislation with basic economic facts laid out simply.
Or we could setup free carwashes during Spring Break with the stipulation that they must take a brochure home to read. And all the brochures would provide better ideas of what the Iranian public is like and why attacking them could create a global backlash from foes and friends alike.
Innovation is key, as is smart education. Such a decentralized effort could make millions of subtle impacts on the national consciousness.
Centralized planning requires the use of truly charismatic presences, not just celeb-power. But decentralized distributive efforts require good choices of regional and local organizers. Consider the SCLC models effectively used throughout the South in the Sixties CR movement. Learning how Fannie-Lou Hamer was recruited (trusted by neighbors for her providing things as simple as babysitting) provides insight into the utilization of established trust to build larger networks of action.
RevDeb @ 88
He does have some interesting points, but I doubt it was any one thing. U.S. society seemed to be breaking down at home, too, and politicians don’t like that very much. The Army was in bad shape, and close to dysfunctional at the time. That’s one of the reasons the draft ended and was replaced by the all-volunteer army we have now.
Would either of those problems been enough to cause a withdrawal from Vietnam? I can’t say because they didn’t happen separately. In fact, you could say that each fed on the other. I suppose we’d have to look at the memoirs and papers of the decisionmakers at the time to figure all that out, because they ultimately were the ones who made Nixon and Ford withdraw from Vietnam.
Just to add to the folklore of the Betty Crocker thing. There was an announcement that the test would be given in an afternoon. It meant ditching classes for the P.M. Sounded good to me. Took a test. Won the award. It was joke of High School as I was noted for stapling my hems and was chastised for being a Commie. Communism and Betty Crocker were never seen as too compatible.
When we spoke with Kerry’s staffer for one of the Roots meetings, he pretty much insisted that until there were large marches in Washington, there wouldn’t be action from Congress on Iraq. (Of course, as Revdeb was quick to point out, at that point there already had been many such and they were ignored.) Maybe it’s an excuse for inaction, but apparently still some people in Washington have this idea.
I think a good illustration of this is the immigrant marches last year, which put immigration on the map as a political issue. I think without exaggeration the attention paid to the topic overall in the media went up about 1000%.
So marches aren’t useless.
I saw this march as serious progress. The media actually covered it. I don’t know why and I’m troubled by every possible explanation that comes to mind. It’s the first time I’ve heard day-long coverage on an anti-war protest in many, many years. Sure, they covered Fonda, and made many protestors look bad, but that’s real progress from being ignored.
I do agree that tactically these marches don’t seem well thought out, from choice of speakers, to choice of speakers’ topics. I think if Kos and Jane and Aravosis were in charge of these marches, they’d really affect the media story.
Valley Girl – It’s COLD tonight in Georgia!
susan @ 84
I never took Home Ec, just the test. Home Ec teacher Sr Alice Patricia was livid when I won. Ha!
Valley Girl @ 87
What VG said. I’d trade in any fancy awards I may or may not have for the Betty Crocker one.
Alice B @ 106
You would not be Betty the Peacenik by any chance, would you?
Also stapled my hems. And ironed only the part of my uniform blouse that showed under the jacket. I mean, why bother ironing the back and sleeves?
taking a different tact, I have recently mau maued two local ministers and together we have been lobbying our little town’s council for their imprimateur on a apolitical vigil for the Military in Iraq and their families – no one has to mention Helmet Boy or their sentiments towards him – just a group of fellow citizens standing together demanding these folks come home now (they have already given us a permit, but I would like our little town to endorse it – they are currently stringing us along looking for precedent, blah blah blah, but we go back on Tuesday night and we have a 50-50 chance right now
I think everybody should dress up in business suits next time to look like little neo-cons. That would really get their attention. Confuse ‘em, too.
Alice B @ 106
That is so funny! When I went for a grad school interview at UCLA, I got sat down at a table with three profs, who seemed not so interested in my scientific views, but rather, whether I realized that I couldn’t necessarily “be home to cook dinner for my husband” every night. They had really pissed me off already… so, I said, “well, even though I was the “Betty Crocker Homemaker of Tomorrow” of my high school class, I don’t think that that is the route I will be following.” Later I was told by one of the kindly profs- “you were the only girl we didn’t make cry”. And then he hit on me. And continued to hit on me. Even after I chose to go to grad school elsewhere, he kept phoning my MOTHER, to try to get my phone number!
Valley Girl @
60
Valley Girl, sempai!
I always figured they meant “homewrecker of tomorrow” ;)
mandrake @ 114
I think we could also get local government to stop investments in corporations who are benefitting from the war (G.E. & Halliburton etc.). I think the stopping of investments in South Africa in the end had an impact.
Valley Girl @ 115
Sounds a bit like one of my interviews with one of the national laboratories…. :)
I took Foods for Boys in 1971 or 1972, and learned how to cook frozen green beans, but they never told us about the Betty Crocker contest. The administration must have suppressed it.
Now, I’m trying to remember what that has to do with Jane’s post…
ember @
108
…and in upstate South Carolina.
Professor Foland @ 110
hehe, yep, you missed a great chance to have it in capital letters. Women’s lib apparently made it possible for those xys not of the VietNam generation (jayt) to get this Award (pin or tietack). But, I do suspect that there are plenty of “homemakers” of today who are XY. It just happens to be something that I look back on fondly, and with a great sense of irony!
Valley Girl @
24
Too funny… I got highest marks in Home Economics in 1965! I’m from Canada and we didn’t do Betty Crocker. [That was out of 4 classes/ 35 students in each class :)]
Okay, did Betty Crocker teach you all how well orange and chocolate go together?
I thought so. :)
Valley Girl @ 68
Does it count if I visualized Betty Crocker’s muffins (or June Cleaver’s Beaver)?
I didn’t, of course, but thought I’d put it out there for the shy but seriously masturbed.
Hope @ 101
Hi Hope. That was a great comment. I didn’t mean they were bad for the morale and growth of our movement. I meant that they have an image problem because the media does not portray them correctly.
Keep posting Hope!
“why bother ironing the back and sleeves?”
Did this for YEARS with my husband’s shirts and warned him not to take off his suit coat!
Then, I quit ironing all together!
Hope (101) — I don’t know that we can really call this “shooting down”. Let’s take this as constructive criticism and see the opportunity in it.
Look at it this way, at how the face of the Democratic Party itself is changing. 20, 30, 40 years ago, the Party was substantially blue collar folks and white-collar leaders. Over time, its leadership became co-opted by corporate money in the same way that Republicans were co-opted. And we lost regularly, systematically because of it.
Now we have a new generation of Democratic folks who have cut their teeth in an entirely different world, where most of the action and money is generated in the grassroots by people who are far better educated and more articulate, with a much narrower gap in education and capacity than previous generations (blue-collar rank-and-file with college-grad leadership became a cohesively computer-mediated entity). This new generation has been pushed to be more effective in their daily work lives, using tools that previous generations could only dream of. We can’t shut that off when it comes to our political organizing; we bring it with us.
As a business grad, I see a mass of bodies like the one in Washington DC this week and the energy they expended, and I wonder whether a more effective branding process, a more cohesive and tighter message would have done a better job of making the point to Congress that they need to quit f*cking around and cut Bush off at the knees.
All those friendly, smiling faces and the wild colors and hilarious signs don’t seem to express the intensity of rage a majority of Americans are feeling. If every single person in attendance had worn black head-to-toe, marched silently arm-in-arm from one end of Washington to another, would that have stopped the media cold in its tracks?
What if they’d all shown up wearing Guy Fawkes masks?
And who did the media outreach for this event? Did they give pressers? Did they send a transcript of speeches? Did they contact local/regional “blue companies” and work with them on co-branding? Who filmed this to make a cohesive message video for distribution on YouTube, for a documentary film for distribution within the quarter after editing?
That’s what this generation of Democratic and progressive activists are thinking when they worry about effectiveness. We know we aren’t living in 1968; those forty years should show up in how we protest. We should be kicking more serious ass and taking names, doing a better job at promoting our issue than any corporation does its product.
“…why iron the back and sleeves?”
I found out: because the place I was interviewing with in early July in MI had no air conditioning…and I hadn’t ironed the damned shirt completely.
For those of you who remember the 1970’s, Jesuit Father Robert Drinan has passed away.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..bit_drinan
As the first priest to serve in Congress he was the first congressman to call for the impeachment of Nixon.
As I said earlier, we have come a long way. Just talking about that award brought back the tenor of the times. We lived thru a very schizophrenic time. As a friend always mentions…one year you had to sign out of your dorm, no men allowed inside, had to be in by 11 pm. Then the next year the dorms were co-ed and no restrictions. Quite a turn around.
That Betty Crocker thing was a hoot and seems like talking of hoop skirts.
AZ Matt @ 129
Oh, I remember well. He represented my then-district. When the Vatican forced him to give up politics, I thought he was making a mistake by staying with the church. But, he thought otherwise.
Great idea! Silent, dressed in black…
(And what a movie) Remember, remember the 5th of November…
montag @ 118
Interesting… I have been guilty at least in one case of assuming a commenter with an unclear handle as to gender was XX (tho XY in fact) because of the similarity of views. I thought I learned my lesson, but perhaps I went too far in the opposite direction with my assumptions. I was thinking you were XY. Or, am I missing a funny about your interview?
Valley Girl @ 133
Not mistaken. Was just veering off on the suggested ardent factionalism. I was loved by Sandia, hated by Lawrence-Livermore. :)
Rayne @ 127
Excellent points. More ideas like Kiss Floats and “Had Enough” and YouTube viral marketing helps. It has to be more creative than costly, especially given the MSM corporate bias.
Montag, did you work for Sandia?
This Betty Crocker thing is TOO much! In 1977, at the Senior Assembly for my high school, I heard my father cough, a very distinctive cough. I was astounded, confused, amazed. Why was my father in the audience? Soon thereafter, my name was announced as the winner of the Home Economics Award. In a daze, I walked on the stage and received my copy of “Betty Crocker’s Cookbook” (23rd printing, 1974). My parents had been notified of my award and never told me. I wasembarrassed. This was an era when enjoying domestic activities was laughable. Frankly, except for my interest in cooking, I did not understand why I received this award.
How I regret my embarrassment now. I still own that cookbook, and the binding is held together with electrician’s tape, packaging tape and lots of care.
Thanks for the memories.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 120
are you traveling?
ember @ 108
Last fews days, too, but I’ll have a look at the thermometer.
AZ Matt @ 130
He was a great man. He would have stayed in Congress except that the church made him decide between Congress and the priesthood. They wouldn’t let him have both. Frankly it would have been better for us all had he chosen to stay in Congress IMHO.
May he rest in peace.
Rayne @
91
Yeah, yeah, yeah! I had a suitbox (remember them?) full of college applications that came from the NMS and my SAT’s. My favourite was from a mining school in AZ which emphasized that there were nubile young women at a nearby community college. I was *so* reminded of that when I saw True Genius “student beauticiasn” He he.
dab from CT — can’t claim credit for the idea; the Women in Black have been doing this for some time, and include Los Madres de la Plaza de Mayo.
I just think that 100,000 people wearing black scarves, black cloaks, black on black and utterly silent would send the motherf*cking Instacracker into utter gibbering, let alone stun the mainstream media. What would the willpower to do that say to Congress?
Alice B @ 130
Sounds like we went to the same college! I know exactly what you mean!
bg @ 136
Nope. Never got the chance. I was interviewing for rail gun work in the very early `90s. Sandia guys wanted me. The L-L guys didn’t like my attitude. I suspect they were buds with Lowell Wood. Fuck `em. :)
montag @ 123
I was precocious. I knew from birth.
Apparently there was not one US Senator to appear at the DC protest yesterday? I know they are on a break, but I was surprised that none of them would be there.
Drinan was one of the few who stood up and was counted back in the day. The few who would take on Johnson for example, in the early days.
Hardly seems like a gamble for them to rise today. What a disappointment.
HotFlash @ 145
[laughing] Yeah, some things are wholly intuitive. Now, did Betty Crocker teach you how to put them together in a cheesecake? :)
HotFlash – heh. I’d been accepted at General Motors Institute (now Kettering University) for their mechanical engineering program, but I didn’t go out of fear of being treated like a freak by the overwhelmingly male student body and staff, pointed to as the “nubile young woman” conveniently nearby.
Would have been pure hell, glad I didn’t go there.
OK, go to DC, the reps aren’t there, media doesn’t cover, score protesters zero.
So what do we do? Picket our reps? Can we apply anything learned from Spocko?
HotFlash says: @ 78
Okay, who else we got here. Any National Merit Scholars? Fulbright? What?
I was a National Merit finalist (1968). Multiple-guess tests are so easy….
FWIW, the LA Times had a photo of the DC march on its front page today.
Rayne – I’ve always thought the women in black had it right and I’d love to see – and be part of – a similar action on a mass scale.
Firedogma says you must publish recipe for same in the next Pull Up A Chair (puhleeze, oh puhleeze ! I needs me some of that :)
montag @ 147
No, no, you don’t understand. Betty C didn’t teach anything, it was simply a four-hour test, mostly multiple choice with one essay question. It was, IMO, a better designed vehicle than the SAT’s for testing general knowledge. I think they gave it up when the Home Ec teachers complained that their kids never won. It was the curious kids who got the best scores on the BC test. Pro’ly the curious kids ended up being liberals, too, seems to me like it should go that way.
“As a friend always mentions…one year you had to sign out of your dorm, no men allowed inside, had to be in by 11 pm…”
In the late sixties when I was in college, on one Sunday a month, men were allowed to visit women in their dorm rooms. During the visits, the doors had to remain open, and “four feet on the floor” was the rule. Resident assistants patrolled the halls, pushing wide the doors and counting feet. In addition, in the dorm’s “parlor”, PDAs (public displays of affection) were forbidden.
Jane,
You do have the answer or at least a big part of it. You are The Jane Hamsher of The Jane Hamshers of the Left. You are a netroots leader and icon. You are applying pressure and it is making a difference. Pills Limbaugh is a pilondial cyst on the ass of America.
cbl @ 152
Your wish is my command… I wing these things, so it won’t be the perfect Joy of Cooking measurements–I do it differently every time–but it seems to come out tolerably. :)
Recipes, oh gosh. I don’t really use them much, I just make stuff up.
Salon’s has and article about the rally:
http://www.salon.com/news/feat…../28/march/
I talks about how this march had a lot of mainstream attendees.
musicsleuth @
135
Wow. You’re both too smart. How’s about the black and silence with a 15 stop march to sing Have You Had Enough??
Okay, so I don’t know why I feel that I have to defend this digression into Betty Crocker, but, really it is not a digression. And no one has said it is. Jane brought it up, after all. But, I think that it is really a good contrast between “then” and “now”. I was part of the “VietNam” generation. And, for all of the horrors there were then, in an odd way, it was a time of innocence. Innocence, for me, anyway, because in the years immediately following, and even those prior to the Bushco regime, I never thought that we would see worse. And, now we have. Perhaps what Jane is speaking to in this post is the necessity for ripping away what shreds of innocence any of us may have. I agree with all the comments about the utility of demonstrations for building community, and made my own remark on that behalf early on the thread. But, I now see that Jane, as usual, gets to an important issue at the heart of our current…. current… words fail…
HotFlash @ 142
My favorite was from the tiny little 2 year school in the austere White Mountains…
Deep Springs College
a valley and a world away from Mammoth Mountain in the Eastern Sierra.
Sounded amazing, still does.
(but this shy person needed a bigger school to grow in…)
HotFlash @
78
I got my high school GED in Korea (2 months before my class graduated in 1967). When I was in Nam in 68-69 my buddy who had graduted from Cornell helped me jive my way into the University of Illinois. It took me until 1998 to get my doctorate in Adult Education.
HotFlash @
149
Kucinich and Waters were there. As I noted above, I saw widespread media coverage–on network news, NPR, and public TV. I don’t get any dead trees delivered myself, but PJEvans just mentioned it was in the LA Times.
“I figure that I won because I knew the definition of denier”.
Isn’t that Bush’s next phase?
“I’m the denier”.
Speaking of cooking, Pop ‘n Fresh to have his fat fried on the stand?
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/012707Z.shtml
Too bad the Kiss Float wasn’t in DC! Of course now Joe will be jealous of Michelle. Maybe it is time to re-vamp it to a three way float?!
susan @ 154
There was a rule in our dorm, door had to be open width of a wastebasket. The bookstore sold a crushed wastebasket guaranteed to be no more than 2″ thick. We could entertain members of the opposite sex in our rooms only on Sun afternoon, no such rule in men’s dorm. In loco parentis.
gbear @ 164
That’s Toad-In-The-Hole’s routine. Bush’s will be Ralph Kramden imitations. :)
AZ Matt @ 166
Yikes! Thanks for that mental image….
Professor Foland @ 164
John Conyers and Lynne Wolsey also were there and spoke at the rally. Russ Feingold sent a message—he couldn’t be there himself.
Here’s your problem. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMdrJHN-y8k
We scientist don’t get out much!
Valley Girl @ 115
musicsleuth @ 169
Just Republican Family Values!
The demonstrations are much more effective if well attended. Bodies count… live ones… they can’t not notice if it were 2 million or more… and it should be.
A protest can literally shut the country down for a brief period and get everyone’s attention on an issue.. especially in Italy where I have attended a few demonstrations.
What I don’t like about the large rallies is that it becomes a platform for all sorts of left wing groups which have a grievance.. like native Americans for example.. not much to do with the war in Iraq… or the Palestinians with their complaints against Israel. All valid but off message.
The news does not cover nor interview the people at these events and they dismiss these massive demonstrations as meaningless and not newsworthy. When hundreds of thousands of people come from far and wide to make a statement… it is more of an effort than casting a vote… and it should be noted.
We can’t rely on opinion polls. We need to be seen and heard and counted.
But we need larger, better planned, and promoted, and focused demos.
We have so little opportunity to express ourselves politically, protest is one of them and it should not be set aside.
I think the problem starts with how you define yourself, or your ideology. That using terms like “fringe left” to describe yourself plays into the hands of those that want to attack or diminish you (the right), as well as those, such as the CM, who want to use you for their own agenda in their right v. left face-off faux controvery isn’t it exciting maybe they’ll yell at each other, did they really say that, kind of way b/c then people will watch, or read, or listen (which is entertainment and some day soon enough you will all see that).
This was going to be a longer post (really, it was), but I’ll make it both shorter and easier: The opposite of love isn’t hate, it’s indifference. And in the politics of our day, the opposite of fringe right anything isn’t “fringe left” ( or “progressive” for that matter, which term I also have issues with since I think it is used by many here in an elitist, we’re smarter then the masses way) it’s mainstream (which is hard to argue with if 70% of the country agrees with it). Just b/c the enemy is a fringe group that usurped control of their party and lied their way to power, doesn’t mean that you, or me, or anyone here is a “fringe” anything. And you can pick your issue and you would most likely find that the majority of the American public agrees with you rather than with the right (abortion, minimum wage, Katrina, corruption, the war) – regardless of what the CM says, since they don’t care.
Maybe it is an natural tendancy (even mathematical) to think that if the neonuts are at one fringe end of the spectrum then the counterbalance to that must be at the other fringe end. It might be natural to think that way, but that doesn’t mean it is right, and it isn’t.
For me, this is just more of the same of the tripartite Dem party for the future where the allegedly more activist (I’m not claiming to be one) or more radical (I’m not claiming to be one of those either) are one leg, while the “mainstream” and CM are the others.
I still don’t get the tendency, if not reflex, to play politics by the rules of the fringe right or the CM. To exist, the fringe right needs a “fringe left.” Why give them what they need, when the whole middle (where the majority of the people agree with you on many if not most major issues), the real opposite and the real way to defeat or marginalize them, is there for the taking.
Of course, I just like political theory, and none of the above may really matter, since I think the majority of the nation gets (see November ‘06) it and will continue to get it regardless of what stories appear in the CM. But, on the odd chance that I am wrong, and since most of you aren’t gonna sit around and hope I’m right, at least think about the possibility that there may be better ways to describe yourselves and play by rules that actually make sense for achieving your goals.
kirk murphy @ 161
Deep Springs is no Arizona School of Mines. It’s just off the charts.
EvilDrPuma @
19
I told a right-wing co-worker that same thing, more or less, though in a nice way. He looked really stricken.
Not as stricken as the time I thanked him for creating all those new presidential powers for Hillary Clinton to use. “What,” I said to him, as he gaped.”You think those powers disappear? You think W takes them with him? Oh no. Hillary will have the power to detain people on a whim, thanks to you guys. Man, I bet she has quite a list. You might even be on it.”
He was quiet for quite a while.
Rayne at 127.
Really excellent idea, black-clothed marchers. It would provide visual cohesiveness, which is absent in current peace marches. The Mexican and American flags served that function in the immigration marches.
I’m with Jane on the appearance and content of peace marches. I think the anti-war message is diluted by all the social cause messages that are included. Ideally, the people who were in DC for the anti-abortion demonstration would have filled out the anti-war march too. If the march was solely focused on the war, that might have happened. I didn’t watch media coverage, because I knew they would find all the drag queens, dreadlocks and crazies and interview them.
youkillednoodle @ 171
That’s a great YouTube! Thanks. I will have to figure out how to work it into a lecture.
Hi ya, Jane! Nice to have you posting about stuff like this.
I live in DC, but didn’t during the HUGE marches in the 60’s and early 70’s (I moved here just in time to catch the last, most important, months before Nixon’s resignation).
Still, I live in Adams Morgan, which was the real HOT BED of dissent. My husband and I went to the last big anti-war march a couple of years ago. We just took the bus downtown and walked around. Ran into Brent Scowcroft walking in the other direction from the demonstration. H-m-m-m.
Still, what else can we do but SHOW UP and be counted? I gave a nice chunk of change to many Democrats running for Congress this past year, including Sherrod Brown, Jon Tester, Claire McCaskill (sp?) and, most especially–he got far more of my money than anyone else–JIM WEBB!!!
It was nice that the whole thing was so CIVILIZED. Imagine that: thousands upon thousands of folks coming to town on a very nice day (winter has finally arrived but took a hiatus on Saturday) and peacefully assembling to petition their government for redress. Not that Darth Cheney was paying any attention . . .
Speaking of Deep Springs College – there was an excellent article about it a month or two ago in the New Yorker. It may be available online. I highly recommend it.
We get enough of these big marches and I think we’ll start to see agents provocateurs. Anyone recall Tommy the Traveler? He worked for the Feds and encouraged violence in the anti-Vietnam movement.
If we don’t concentrate on stopping the Iraq war; not attacking Iran; preventing a regional Middle East war, doing something about the Israeli-Palestinian situation and preventing a possible world war, then nothing else matters. Does it?
Well, if I can just add a cynical comment here (and it is really cynical), obviously the marches aren’t working as a means to threaten the current regime, because, at least as far as I know, no one at a demo has been shot and killed outright, as at Kent State.
Off topic?
I just heard some person called on air american…the nation I think,said scott ritter said “the regan”carrier group just left for the middle east..Can anyone clarifie/verifie this?
I really hope this person was wrong…
raven @ 181
What really turned public opinion & legislative opinion back in “the era” was Kent State. When the national guard killed the peacefully demonstrating (sitting indeed) students, everyone saw that it was nuts. In short, it was not the inciting of violence in the demonstrations that had a lasting impact, but the violence of the guard troops toward civilians.
Richmond- snap!
ember @
138
No. I live in upstate South Carolina.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 182
I agree with you OK-Ko so very often it is scary.
snuffy @ 184
Go to thenation.com and read his article.
V-G – Oh Snap :-)
DefJef @ 173
In Europe they do general strikes. Not so much inconvenient and expensive travel, hits hard. We don’t do this, why? Because we won’ have the numbers? Because we will be fired? And I guess they won’t?
Today’s anti-war demonstrations are a pale reflection of the ones held during the sixties.
In those days, the draft had been reinstated, most of us knew at least one person who was in Vietnam (I had two cousins there who were both college grads), and we really believed that we were MARCHING FOR OUR LIVES.
If we want to end this war, a serious discussion about bringing back the draft would
Sorry, hit the wrong button:
Meant to say:
If we want to end this war, a serious discussion about bringing back the draft would bring this war to a quick close.
I left the US in 1969. I don’t recall that the marches and rallies were that much bigger than today, they just loomed larger in the media. Can anyone give numbers for marches then/now? Wiki is not helpful.
HotFlash @
78
National Merit Scholar and member of Cum Laude Society (my school didn’t do NHS). Those would still need a couple of dollars for the proverbial cup of coffee, at least once out of college. Of course, because my school was pretty exclusively college prep, neither Betty Crocker nor shop were offered. Had to do those on my own (still not so great at shop, but I do a mean job of disassembling and reassembling, which often lets the evil spirits out).
susan @ 192
Susan- the first time I heard this idea a few years ago, from my best friend in college, I was shocked. But now…. I agree.
With regard to marches and demonstrations, in general, much of what has been said previously applies, in some way or another. We aren’t living in the `60s and early `70s. The media isn’t the same as it was almost forty years ago. Many changes have taken place from Vietnam to now.
I would never say to someone, don’t bother to go out and be heard. That’s like saying, “voluntarily give up your Constitutional rights to peaceful assembly and redress of grievances.”
But, at the same time, I wouldn’t delude someone about the chances of their active participation in a demonstration, these days, prompting wholesale change.
We’ve had forty years of most every influence in life pushing toward instant gratification, and yet, that’s not life in any real sense.
The object should always be not to give up–to march when possible, to write cogently and sensibly to representatives, to speak plainly and honestly about what is an illegal and immoral war. To be firm about what is best for us, our military, the Iraqis, and our future.
In short, to make sense at all times, to find the best way through a jungle of lies, deception and propaganda, and to help in any way possible.
That’s okay, huh?
Valley Girl @ 196
They are not likely to institute a draft, as private enterprise makes more money from providing mercenaries, er, security contractors.
HotFlash @ 198
montag needs to weigh in on your comment, but alas you may be correct.
susan @ 192
The numbers of US war dead in Viet Nam were far higher. That also made a difference. And, Vietnam was so far away there was no real support at home for keeping it as a colony (the great fear was Communism domino style). In Iraq we have at once oil & armaments(big business) and feared threats to Isr*el. This changes things fundamentally, and whereas we have 75% of the US population are opposed to being there, there are many key players who want the mess to continue – either to keep the mid east unstable, or to put in place some greater Western control here.
National Merit Finalist, officer in Future Homemakers of America, high school dropout with GED and two grad degrees. No Betty Crocker awards, though. I made it through home ec on my ability to repair the constantly broken Singer machine and make my clothes. I’m always and forever a really bad cook and fortunately married a good one. They offered to let me take Ag and shop type classes as the lone girl to try to talk me out of dropping out oif high school, but I didn’t think the trade was a good deal.
montag @ 197
montag, you have been around the block a few times and thought deeply on this topic. I value marches and rallies and such to connect and energize, but think that such events have been neutered so far as influencing govt, is concerned, esp this one.
Strengthening the commitment, yes. Swaying public opinion, maybe, esp to let folks who think that way know they are not alone.
But there must be something that will make Them sit up and take notice.
Fitz? Self immolation?
What is your take on this?
V-G – You are right on. Plus you have all those ongoing salaries to support. Remember this admin is all about dismantling the gov.
I do suppose if American Indians were today fighting to get rid of the occupiers, and those trying to control the natural resources, and the murderers of “the people”, they (natives), would be called militants and extremists.
HotFlash @ 194
The War Moratorium marches in DC were huge. A real shock to the political system.
They started against LBJ & his Vietnam policies and continued on through Tricky Dick.
Richmond @ 203
I’m not sure I can take credit. I think it was someone else, tho I do agree.
Another big difference then and now – is that the middle class is now smaller, and the economy is not good for those in the middle and bottom so people are really frightened about keeping their jobs and simply making ends meet.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 174
what’s interesting about these times is you’ve got someone like Jim Webb on the same side as Jane Fonda re the Iraq war. Strange bedfellows indeed.
As much as I admire Fonda, Sarandon, Robbins, Penn, Baldwin, etc. it appears that younger folks are not at the head of the protest. It is war being waged by mercenaries or military families or the unfortunate who need the job and not by the many of the upper crust so the protest lakes a bit of energy. Maybe the protest will increase by Summer if BushCo tries to expand the war as they appear to be doing. I am not sure that young people realize that they will have to clean up the mess that BushCo is creating. At some point perhaps all that is going on will sink in and more people will express their disgust publicly.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 204
I live on an Arizona Reservation and there is still that attitude with some. For instance, El Paso Natural Gas has some 900 miles of pipelines running across the Navajo Nation and they are trying to end-run on the tribe and get the Depts of Energy and Interior to give them cheap rights of way. You have the example of Jack Abramoff calling the Tiguas of Texas idiots and worse.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 204
OKKiddo, Eureka Springs mentioned this site last night wrt Tshirts. “Original Homeland Security. Fighting terrorism since 1492.”
I was in college in the 60’s. And the demonstrations were large and there were a lot of them. There were also things like the ‘68 Demo convention, Kent State and colleges shutting down, blocking of induction centers, and sit-ins. There was a lot more anti-war activities in the sixties than there now is.
lacks
Katrina Van den Heuvel’s list of 10 things to do is important (war related and otherwise). Here is the link:
http://www.alternet.org/story/47273/
They are not likely to institute a draft, as private enterprise makes more money from providing mercenaries, er, security contractors.
Bankrupts the treasury faster than the US armed services. In fact, the US Military provides training that is often utililized later by the private contractors. Aircraft mechanics for example receive their expertise while serving in the military, then, when their enlistment ends, they go to work for Dyncorp. Dyncorp pays them better than the military, plus they can quit when they want (if it gets too hairy). So, US taxpayers pay to train Dyncorp and other’s employees. Then Dubya pays Dyncorp.
Richmond @ 207
Interesting and true. BTW, I’ve noticed your refs. to travel to Africa (hope I am correct). If you are willing to say, what is your job there? I went to The Gambia in 1967 as part of “Operation Crossroads” and it changed my world view. Completely.
hackworth @ 215
Matt Ortega needs to see this comment.
I remember hearing from frinds in the army about stuff going on inside, GI’s not happy with the war. Some of the stuff turns up in Sir, No Sir, but if there is such a thing in the forces now I have not heard of it. The polls suggest that the troops are not confident, but that is not the same.
I have always felt the best demonstration we could do would be a cancel the cable tv….or to seriously cut it back. Begin with a date…like the fourth of July. Have troops begin redeployment or we the people cut off the corrupt media and the corporate whores. They already know what the reduction of newspaper circulation means. How about a million or so who cancel their cable or satellite for a month…then 2 months…etc? And have a place to send the money to finance a stop the war campaign. We could still have our internet but stifle the tv and their ability to advertise us to death. Limit the platform for all these fools.
V-G – I originally went to Africa in the Peace Corps circa the time you were there. Changed my life too. Now I teach & write.
Alice B – Sign me up…)
Alice B @ 219
I just don’t see people doing that. Look at the impact of anger against ABC over the 9-11 film. Zilch.
Getting communities (and states) to stop investing in war profiteers would be huge; and that is do-able. (think South Africa). That would really frighten people. Also the Dems need to do something on fair and balanced to get the media to change.
Richmond @ 220
RPCV Kenya ‘79-’81! It is a life changer!
Eureka Springs@83:
A war is being waged on us from so many angles. The Dixie Chicks said, Not ready to make nice. We continue to play nice at our peril, I’m afraid.
Everyone who accepts so many of the facts before us as troublesome must act in any and every peaceful way possible. Especially when the people in the seats of power are not listening at all.
ANY and EVERY. Yes, absolutely. And as civilly disobedient as we can while monkeywrenching their attention to things that further anger everybody, not just activists.
RevDeb@87:
1. Yes, the army/marine corps is breaking. 2. It isn’t breaking the same way that it did in Nam. This is a volunteer military, then it was draftees.
While Guitar Playing Bastard’s points can’t be dismissed, because, yes, more heated confrontation is likely to occur to stop autocratic leaders who love to kill too much, Gilliard’s correct that the young are less inflammatory without the draft. And the Rightists won’t go for the draft for precisely that reason.
Why don’t we take the massive antiwar march model to surround certain sites in Irving, Texas… Houston, Texas… and Fairfax, VA?
They report earnings on February 1st. How many Americans would cheer the disruption of business as usual at the penultimate Snidely Whiplash of the corporate bloodspillers? Especially when they report record profits from gouging us all?
AZ Matt @ 223
Great! What did you do?
As much as I greatly admire the individuals in the photo, I do wonder how much involvement younger individuals have in the protest. As for folks of a certain age it is like a rerun of bad horror movie, “Noghtmare on Pennsylvanie Avenue” from the Vietnam era. It looks like BushCo is trying to expand the war into other Countries; another form of playing dominoes. At some point, I hope young people will realize that they will be the ones who will have to clean up the mess that BushCo is creating; it may not just be mercenaries, military families, or unfortunates who need the job.
Richmond @
220
Ah… sometime perhaps we can compare notes. Just got an email from my best buddy during that summer, with pix of his second marriage. I tracked him down via the internet about 4 years ago. (He’s Gambian, tho he did spend some time in the US ~1980, but I wasn’t in touch with him then.)
And, BTW, I just noticed that there is a new thread upstairs. Haven’t checked it out.
Richmond @ 225,
Horticulture Volunteer, fruit trees mainly. 2 years of no running water or electricity in the western highlands. You?
When Weather Vanes Point is upstairs.
Richmond @ 225
Yes… certainly more of a life changer for me than being a “Betty Crocker Homemaker of Tomorrow. Much more. So much more.
Valley Girl @ 199
I’m not entirely sure how to weigh in. :)
HotFlash’s comment about mercenaries is spot on in some ways. The procurement process is pretty much corrupted by the revolving door these days.
That said, we haven’t yet hit a point where a draft is necessary. This may sound cruel in a way, but it’s still true. Iraq is, at best, in the context of previous wars, a small regional conflict.
The military doesn’t want a draft–they can maintain better discipline without it. The `pugs don’t want one (at least not a universal one that endangers them and theirs), and the left, against the war, isn’t much in favor of a draft–despite what Charlie Rangel might say.
It seems from that, the problem is Bush and Cheney and the fact that they wanted this war, no matter what. The problem is that they are doing everything they can to prolong the war without adequate resources.
So, it would seem to me that a draft doesn’t solve a problem; rather, it merely prolongs a problem. It further enables the bad ideas of the neo-cons. We do have to consider this war in its original context. It had to be sold on false premises. That wears thin over time. That’s evident in the polls.
Would a draft greatly mobilize the public against war? Yes, eventually, but not immediately. There’s every possibility that the institution of the draft might convince the more staid and unthinking in society that the war was much more serious than they had previously surmised. It would not be until they assessed the personal losses–as in Vietnam–that they determined it was a pointless exercise.
In that way, Iraq is very much like Vietnam–despite the protestations of the pundits, that’s the difference–the draft. Never, however, would I suggest that the draft was necessary in order to end this war. The price would be exorbitant, by any standard. With millions of fresh bodies, this war would go on for a long, long time. The draft didn’t win Vietnam. It won’t help Bush win in Iraq, either.
The emphasis has to be on one thing: this is Bush’s and Cheney’s fuck-up. They must pay the price for it, not soldiers, be they drafted or volunteers.
Jane, So gald you are back!!!!! I don’t comment very often but I am at FDL several times a day. It is so great reading the live-blogging from the Libby trial. I hope that you will be there in person soon.
montag- I will not risk a zig by quoting your comment immediately above. But, I always value your insights. I will reread, having only scanned. I am still thinking in the meme of “making the US populace at large” more involved in our political dialogue, but I suspect that that may be “old” thinking. I will def. consider your words, bec. I’m sure this is a topic I will be discussing with others who are not at FDL. Thanks.
Alice B @ 220
Great idea if someone could manage it. Unfortunately, I don’t get cable already, and I don’t watch much TV these days. I suspect quite a few of us are like that. I think that, generally speaking, it’s the people who watch cable TV all the time who are a big part of the problem.
Having people like Sarandon, Fonda and Penn at rallies is a good thing, but the media does seem to find it awfully easy to dismiss the entire event as a ‘loony left’ shindig because of their presence. But even if someone who is generally *not* considered a ‘lefty’ turned up, they would, I think, be dismissed as one ever after. Another thing to think about is that you really couldn’t ask that people like Sarandon, Fonda and Penn to not show up (not that I think that’s the point of the post, of course). I realize that a rally is going to do absolutely nothing to change the Decider’s mind on anything, but they serve a purpose in getting people who may be something of fence-sitters to maybe change their opinion, as well as letting people who may be reluctant to speak out against whatever the rally was focused on to be a bit more free in expressing themselves. One thing I do wish was different about these events is that they seem to have a large bunch of unrelated things on the agenda. If the march or rally is about the war, maybe there shouldn’t be so much time spent on things like, say, Leonard Peltier or Mumia or what have you. Not that those aren’t good causes – they are – but it seems to dilute the message.
I just don’t understand people knocking mass protests. Would you rather there was no public expression of outrage at all?
A few decades ago we stopped a war, and those of us who were there KNOW we did. You can argue all you want, but if you weren’t there, you don’t know how it all went down. I can’t help but think all the “well, I don’t really like mass demonstrations” business is a sign of underlying issues. Fear? Guilty consciences? Regret at having missed out on the ’60s? You should regret that, if you did miss out. Don’t you want to find out why? For God’s sake, put away the anti-boomer prejudice. You’re cutting yourselves off from a wealth of living history and maybe even good advice.
We’re all going down together, so let’s at least be nice. Remember to save the best shit for your elders, and maybe I’ll tell you stories when we’re gathered ’round the campfire after the electricity goes out forever, and America is just a faded dream.
montag,
I can’t see that public opinion or polls are relevant in these times. The people who rule us do not care abou our opinions and no longer need our votes. Even the R’s only needed the Xtian ‘base’ until HAVA ensured that vote results could be manufactured to order. They don’t care about us anymore than we care about the cows who become Big Macs.
As Norske says, don’t let them into yer yard.
Hi
More were killed in Nam, yes that’s true but the count started at 0 and moved up as more troops were sent. Check history, your bound to do it again, if you don’t know it. The displays of the public becoming involved are always welcome in a FREE SOCIETY. Bloging isn’t enough, you might all need to get out more in the real world.
On another note thanks for all that you do but none of us will do enough when comes to trying to change the world but random acts of kindness are a start.
Welcome back Jane, they’ve done a great job and I’m sure it will continue.
jo6pac
raven @ 182
They never left.
Provocateurs still run multi-year operations under relatively good “tribe” cover.
One of them fooled me when he first surfaced – and later sabotaged every action he “happened” by.
And then he showed up to “help” me again.
But I’m getting ahead of the story.
Following the 1999 WTO protests in Seattle, big demos were planned for the 2000 Dem/Rethug Conventions.
For the DNC protests in LA, we rented a five-story mercado building in Pico Union. (I was part of the “convergence space” organizing committee, and further fattened the FBI file by co-coordinating the medical collective for the DNC protests.)
Who showed up to help but “John Glass“?
That’s just one of his tradenames, of course. Only his case officers and (likely) parole officers know his real name.
I first meet John Glass when I served as a medic for the Headwaters forest defense base camp in Stafford, California in 1997. He showed up after the big protests, when only few hundred were dwindling to many dozens.
These dozens formed the core of forest defense in the area. (Julia Butterfly’s famous action started in this period.) But even then, we weren’t the big show.
This was a small shadow of the big forest protests farther north in Cascadia (oregon/wash/b.c.) that year.
I noticed Glass because his folk treatments were useless at best. Bits of some poultice he concocted won’t clean off the propane stove even now – goddess knows what they would have done to people. (I accidentally poured them out.)
Glass also stood out – in freaking Humboldt County – for “prescribing” pot so freely even the locals were dismayed.
After that camp, he showed up and disappeared radios and tactical gear at other forest defense camps.
John Glass showed up at the 2000 DNC protest “convergence center” offering tactical radios and a few pounds of pot (the center was drug free) for “medicine”.
I merely had to drive with him to an adjoining community and bring them back – committing multiple Federal felonies in the process.
I called security and we excluded Mr. Glass (we’re not your parents’ hippies) from the center and our actions for the duration.
His replacements were already in place, I have no doubt.
John Glass’ successors include Anna.
Anna showed up around 2003. She posed as an “anarchist medic” and then entrapped some love-besotted boy and his mates into buying bomb supplies. Anna drove them to the hardware store and waited outside while they went in to buy the alleged bomb materials.
Oh, yeah – Anna also rented a house. Filled with nifty micorphones and spy gear. And then she had the boys move in – and then led the plot for which they were arrested.
And the house and the spy gear and Anna’s $75,000 “salary” were paid by the FBI.
How generous.
The Feds busted the boys in Auburn, California – as they came out witht he supplies from Anna’s plot. Anna walked.
As befits a paid provocateur with two years’ “service”.
They never left.
i marched. my back still hurts. it is a necessary ingredient in my view. but ultimately impotent on its own. every effect street protest (even recent ones; prague, romania) has been concomitant with a work stoppage. i urged the organizers of this event to consider new forms of protest. the social impetus of a march could be engendered on a national scale via these tubes and be most effective if there be bucks involved.
Never participated in a march. But in NY, you can bet I’ve seen many. When I think about it, those events always made me feel like a lurker on the blogs. Often very supportive of the cause, too shy or reluctant to publicly commit. Lived in the Village during the late 60’s early 70’s, witnessed kids running out of high schools and forming protests in the parks. At that time it frightened me, I was closed minded enough to not to get it. My brother was in the Marines, and buried with a flag on his coffin. That presented a conflict of conciense. I hated to see the flag burned at that time. It took time to sort through , to recognize it doesn’t invalidate a loved one’s sacrifice to protest the government. It is important for others to see the people in streets, perhaps like me they will come to understand that the country has more to fear from government than fellow citizens exercising their right of protest. I support them, it thrills me to see the courage they have to step out in spite of the punitive nature of the government. And, Jane…look at the attention you guys focused on Ned Lamont, all because you dared to step forward.
o @ 240
hope i’m not thread hogging, but the Seattle 1999 WTO protests succeeded without general work stoppages..
although i very much wish that both had gone together….
HotFlash @ 202
Y’know, I’m not sure–partly because of the things I’ve mentioned previously–and partly because I’m no mindreader. I may look like Gandalf, but I ain’t him. :)
More seriously, though, I do think it comes back to this war not affecting people in this country where it hurts, as I suggested at the top. Self-interest is a powerful variable in every political issue. We have about 150,000 people in the Iraq theater right now. It’s a lot. But, do the math, and there’s only 20-30,000 of those who are in the shit more or less daily or weekly. Overall, we’ve lost about 750 soldiers per year. That’s 1.5-2.0% of the people who die in traffic accidents each year.
The war isn’t hitting enough people where it hurts. They complain about the cost of gasoline, but, that hindrance hasn’t changed their lives in any substantive way. Nor have the deaths and disabilities of soldiers, because that impact is relatively small and localized.
This administration has consistently tried to keep people from empathizing with the real victims of the war–by ignoring civilian deaths, by not publishing photos of coffins coming home, by encouraging people to shop and vacation at Disney World, by emphasizing abstractions rather than the realities, and, unfortunately, the media have participated in that fraudulent exercise.
What will ultimately have an effect, I think, is moral indignation about the prosecution of the war. The same happened in Vietnam. Public opinion turned against Nixon after he’d promised a solution, and then widened the war. Bush has done the same, repeatedly. Even with the horror that is the current state of news reporting and analysis, they may be finally catching on. The public may follow.
When the most respected of news people recant, and the most revered in the Bush coterie are exposed as amoral thugs, maybe the situation will change.
We have not yet had our Walter Cronkite moment, when the most respected man on television said the war was lost. We have not had, yet, our Pentagon Papers release. If Democrats encourage the whistleblowers, the Daniel Ellsbergs, to come forward, the war will end before Bush and Cheney leave office, one way or another.
Daniel Ellsberg helped bring millions into the streets.
We’ve not yet seen this war’s Daniel Ellsberg.
Hopefully, we will, soon.
Howard C. Kveck @ 235
I think there’s something to be said for visual imagery that connotes the power of a movement. That’s part of the appeal of mass protests, I think. We’re still just monkeys who learned to walk upright. We can read numbers like 75% and think, “that sounds like a lot of people”, but not feel the true meaning of that number. Seeing millions of people in one place shows that power in a way that our hindbrains understand. While other forms of protest might be in order down the road, I think the first thing to try is to get several million of us in one place, or in several places, as the Latino community did last year.
“I can’t see that public opinion or polls are relevant in these times.”
—
whatever …
“We have not yet had our Walter Cronkite moment, when the most respected man on television said the war was lost. We have not had, yet, our Pentagon Papers release. If Democrats encourage the whistleblowers, the Daniel Ellsbergs, to come forward, the war will end before Bush and Cheney leave office, one way or another.
Daniel Ellsberg helped bring millions into the streets.
We’ve not yet seen this war’s Daniel Ellsberg.
Hopefully, we will, soon.”
—-
U.R.STILL.LIVING.IN.THE.1960s.
It is 2007. Please adjust your calendar.
HotFlash @ 237
I remember part of a dream I had a week or so back. I was on the phone calling Norske… “Norske, they are at my front door! What now?”
I dont remember what happened next.
Douglas Watts @ 246
And you aren’t paying attention. I’m not saying those things will happen. I’m saying that they have to happen before things will change.
People are not greatly different from the `60s to now. Human evolution is not that quick.
Cheers.
kirk murphy @ 8:07 pm #239 – Those links for “Anna” don’t work any more.
Kevin Hayden @ 225
Love it: “personalizing” a despised policy with detested local actors.
Sweet work.
I don’t think marches accomplish much in terms of changing the political environment, but they are a cathartic event for the participants. Those of us who are dissatisfied with the policies of our government can only take so much before the pot boils over and we just have to do something.
Marches contribute to a feeling of solidarity and empowerment, and there is a fair amount of useful networking in the course of a march.
Douglas Watts @ 245
Elegantly argued.
As long as the powers that be are able to keep things virtual, then nothing really changes. They live in a pretend world, so what happens in thin air doesn’t make an impact. It does matter that real people protest. It is why they try so hard to screen their audience. It is why they don’t like to answer reporters questions. It why Tony Snow can stand up and say people support the President. Not everyone is plugged in…but real people and real voices are difficult to deny after awhile. Remember the guy in the gulf who said, “F**k you Mr. Cheney?” That was real. It’s said every day online, not the same.
If they weren’t afraid of demonstraters, they wouldn’t put people on watch lists.
I was there. Walked behind a young child carring a sign reading ‘My Dad was killed in Iraq’.Twenty year olds being handed rifles with a few weeks training. What damage can be done? You should have been there.Vets sleeping the night on a park bench. Fuck the media. Buy a vidio camera and use U-tube.If you don’t act with in the next month or two and hit the streets, we the people, our children and grandchildren will pay for these fools.
Cujo359 @ 249
Merde!
Thanks for the heads-up.
The correct links are (respectively):
Anna
and a copy of the article here.
Thanks for pointing out my goof.
The President trots out his pet supporters at the SOTUA. The reason, a real person with a story makes and impact. You don’t see him trotting out Cindy Sheehan. They don’t want the people to see her. There are many on the left who would rather not see her either, why is that? Meanwhile, back at the White House they bald facedly sic Cheney on the population with his despicable message on TV. They don’t seem too ashamed of his hard line message.
A last “Anna” reference.
….from New Times Broward-Palm Beach
Valley Girl @
24
As was I. 1966. Amazing. I’ve never run into anyone else who’d even heard of it.
In response to Kevin Hayden at 104
The kinds of things you are proposing are the kinds of things that are emerging, I understand, with the John Edwards campaign with volunteerism events in localities losely knit across the country within an overall national focused time frame.
Thank you, Jane. And, I’m thinking of you. You are some woman!
Regarding the demonstrations. Yes, they’ve become rather commonplace these days, and I agree that they accomplish little politically. Look at the demonstrations around the world against this war, and it becomes clear that though millions (billions?) have protested the last few years, little has come of those demonstrations.
In the sixties I attended a few, and they made a difference…in the long run. However, I am aging and somehow they’ve lost their luster.
In this day and age, the internet ideas for communications are proving much more effective.
All the snark about celebrities, marches and marchers remind me that King had it right when he criticized – from jail – the smug preachers and moderates. Get real, people.
Jane, it’s so great to see you back blogging. Welcome back.
If you oppose the war, demonstrate.
If you oppose the war, demonstrate.
If you oppose the war, demonstrate!
Looked at CNN as the other small stories on this were reported to see how they reported it…there were zero stories/links from the front page.
I love the smell of irony in the morning..
Folks diss celebs who spoke on Satuday…these people know we are a cleb nation and they have an obligation to stake a higher ground..They have had their careers hit by their stances…knowing what kind of shit she would be in for Jane Fonda spoke out like this for the first time in decades…(hope you have seen “Shut up and Sing!)
As for “all those other issues” cluttering up the rally..How many events hosted by tribes or Aim have you attended in the past five years? Did you attend any events hosted when Israel was bombing Leb…?
The Occupation in Iraq is not the only issue that evolves power and greed and human suffering….
It sounds as if some here(by benefit of “the way-back” machine) would have been put off in back in 1967 you went to hear Dr. King speak on civil rights for blacks and you ended up hearing about Viet Nam.
If we all could just have it both ways..
If the next big march were held on a Monday instead of a Saturday and everyone sat down in the middle of the street a lot of people would begin to take notice, and I’m pretty sure the media would cover it.