
(Photo of soldiers on patrol in Baghdad by Erik de Castro via Reuters and Yahoo News. Note the textbook formation of the soldiers entering a hostile zone, with all four facing a different angle to cover the whole group. You tell me — flowers and candy or hostile landscape? — CHS)
Every Friday afternoon, commenters at Firedoglake (and likely other blogs) speculate about what embarrassing or disturbing news story will be revealed just before the weekend, when many Americans turn their attention to other concerns. It seems there's always something that fits the type, and it has happened so often that it is hard not to become cynical about the coincidences. One candidate is Friday's revised story about the deaths of five soldiers in Iraq.
Last week, following one of the worst days in Iraq for US casualties, a group of armed men dressed in US Army uniforms, some of them speaking English, drove an armed escort official-looking caravan into a compound in Karbala in which US civil affairs officials were meeting with Iraqis officals about security arrangements. As soon as they gained unimpeded entrance to the compound the men began shooting American troops and tossing grenades. At least five US troops were killed "repelling the attack," according to the first reports.
The initial reports focused not only on the tragic death of five more Americans but also on the audacity of the attack. In the past, we'd seen stories of attackers dressed in Iraqi uniforms (with the likelihood they really were members of sectarian militia within the Iraqi security forces), but I don't recall attackers using US uniforms, carrying US weapons and speaking English. Larry Johnson discusses the ominous implications of this new development in a post at TPM.
The original version of the story claimed that the US soldiers had been killed repelling the attackers, implying that their deaths had occurred at the site of the initial attack. But yesterday's revised version from AP disclosed that the orginal version was false. The US command now reveals that four of the soldiers were actually captured by attackers, who then escaped and drove some 25 miles away, where they executed the Americans with shots to the head. By the time Iraq/US troops arrived at that scene, three of the four Americans were dead and the fourth died from his wounds on the way to a hospital. He too had been shot in the head at close range.
Followup reports in the McClatchy papers and Boston Globe add further details. From the McClatchy report:
The inaccurate accounts of how the four men died recalled the controversy surrounding the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman, who was killed in Afghanistan in 2004. The Pentagon initially said Tillman had been killed by Taliban insurgents. Only later did they say that he'd been shot by fellow American soldiers.
Friday's statement quoting Bleichwehl on details of the abductions and executions was released only after the Associated Press distributed a story quoting Iraqi police officials and two unnamed U.S. officials.
Iraqi police officials in recent days have portrayed the Saturday raid as a major breach of security. A police official in Hilla told McClatchy Newspapers on Monday that one of the vehicles used in the attack carried a license plate stolen from a car of Iraq's minister of trade.
And from the Boston Globe’s front page story this morning:
The confirmation came after nearly a week of inquiries. The US military in Baghdad initially did not respond to repeated requests for comment on reports that began emerging from Iraqi government and military officials on the abduction and a major breakdown in security at the Karbala site.
We can only guess at why the original report was incorrect, as the US command has apparently not yet explained the changed story. All we know is that in the past, when US troops (or American contractors) have been captured, the stories of their capture and eventual fates have received considerable attention in the US media.
All last week, the White House tried to focus attention on the President's request in his State of the Union address that Congress support not only the troops in Iraq but "those on their way," a phrase that drew applause from both sides of the aisle. On Thursday we heard Vice President Cheney tell CNN's Wolf Blitzer that there has been "enormous progress" in Iraq. On Thursday, General Petraeus won unamimous Senate confirmation to take over the US command in Iraq. And all week the WH worked to dilute Congressional efforts to oppose the President's escalation plans and convince doubters that this plan could work. So this was not a week in which news about four captured and murdered US soldiers would have been helpful to the Administration's efforts.
In a time of war, it is imperative that a country be able to trust its military leaders and their Commander in Chief. We all understand that military necessity and the safety of our troops and others may often require that news of battle conditions be withheld until all are safe. But we no longer trust this Commander in Chief or any of his closet advisers to make those decisions about what we are told and why. And that is a tragedy. All we know is that all too often this crowd likes to withhold unpleasant news as long as they can and then if forced, quietly release it on Friday afternoons.
Related posts:
- Torture: Obama Heeded Maliki on Abuse Photos, Says McClatchy; What That Says for Our Occupation
- Changing of the Guard: US Troops Withdraw from Iraqi Cities; Maliki Declares “Sovereignty Day”
- Taking Out the Intelligence Laundry: McClatchy Avoids Policy Debate in Pro-Escalation Afghanistan Report
- US Contractors Held in Iraqi Jail for Green Zone Murder
- Disgraceful: In 8 Years, George W. Bush Never Greeted Fallen Troops





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yeah fitz!
i dont believe it! my first ever!!
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.
If you don’t trust the people,
you make them untrustworthy.
-Lao Tzu, ‘Tao Te Ching’
(translation by Steven Mitchell, 1988)
When rich speculators prosper
While farmers lose their land;
when government officials spend money
on weapons instead of cures;
when the upper class is extravagant and irresponsible
while the poor have nowhere to turn-
all this is robbery and chaos.
It is not in keeping with the Tao.
-Lao Tzu, ‘Tao Te Ching’
(translation by Steven Mitchell, 1988)
You’d think that the Pat Tillman story would have taught someone a lesson . . . but no.
I’ve been watching for the Friday news dumps for years, and it’s amazing what gets gets tossed out with the trash. Occasionally it happens on Saturday – just ask Archibald Cox, who was put to the curb by Robert Bork in Watergate’s Saturday Night Massacre.
I blame Connecticut.
-
I hope anyone who has CSPAN, go over there and watch the Peace Rally!
Peterr @ 5
Yep, I was thinking that this kind of story revision was the last thing Petraeus needed to face when he gets over there.
Good morning everyone.
Anybody know anyone who is there, in Washington?
mandrake @ 9
If I read correctly earlier, Sharkbabe is on the scene and I hope she posts something.
Thanks to whoever gave the heads-up about Kucinich being on C-SPAN. I caught the end of his remarks, and just saw someone from this group
http://www.peopleshurricane.org
mandrake at 9 — Pach and Marcy were both going, as are several readers. I’m sure we’ll get impressions and information at some point this evening or tomorrow.
Scarecrow, you mean the military has been (gasp) lying to us?!? Oh. Actually, I no longer believe anything that comes out of this admin.
I heard the smarmy Frank Luntz interviewed on the radio this week. He is tops on my most-hated Rethug list. What he boils down to is this: Lie, but do it elegantly. Ideas aren’t important, it’s the way you convey them that is. Winning is everthing and truth is a casualty of politics.
As always, loved your post. Thanks, scarecrow. You home yet?
MSNBC this morning was talking about Poppy Bush’s comments that the media is hostile to his widdle precious prezzie.
Mr. S’s take: not as hostile as Bush is to American families.
What does it say about a 60 year old man that his daddy is still running around wiping his nose and trying to make the other kids play nice with the malevolent, mendacious little monster?
Next speakers were
Eleanor Smeal Feminist Majority
Women’s Action for New Directions
Eve Ensler is up now–she’s a playwrite. Not familiar with her.
Let’s not forget Jessica Lynch.
Renee — Eve Ensler wrote “The Vagina Monologues,” among a lot of other pieces.
Renee in Ohio @ 16
But you may be familiar with her vagina. It talks ;~)
Mommybrain — still in California; return home Sunday. Hate going that direction; eats the whole day with the time changes, but it will be nice to get back.
Ah, that makes sense now. She was saying that the administration is too concerned about vaginas and not concerned enough about ending the war, etc.
scarecrow, I know what you mean about the travel. I used to take the red-eye to avoid the loss of a whole day. Where in California are you? Near me, she asked hopefully?
DC President of the AFL-CIO speaking now and mentioned John Sweeney’s leadership. They dumped their endorsement of Dean in 2004and President John Sweeney called him “nuts.” Sweeney owes Dean an apology.Renee in Ohio @ 16
Didn’t she do the Vagina Monologues?
Armed U.S. soldiers kidnapped and executed like regular Iraqi citizens should be front page news and first story news broadcasting. But we all know how it goes in the MSM.
The fact of this happening, more than the initial cover-up, is the story of how bad things are going over there. The cover-up is secondary, seen-it-before news about our bullshit, PR-driven, right-wing political machine. The cover-up is important news, but the change in insurgent tactics is ugly but important news.
Kick ass, ladies!!
Just heard from Clayola Brown.
Hope people don’t mind me just posting these links–a number of these people I hadn’t heard of before, and since I *don’t* trust the news to cover this, I figured the links might be handy to have.
Well, the military’s been spying on us, so why is it a surprise that they’ve been lying to us, too?
This sort of thing has been going on since the first days of the invasion. Lessee, how many weddings have they bombed now, with five-year-old al-Qaeda members killed?
Noble Lies
Is that Howard Stern and Yoko Ono?
QuentinCompson @ 6
That remark should have come with a warning!
Emma’s Revolution singing now. Their page has the word “shalom” in Hebrew, which reminds me that I still have a bumper sticker with that word, but I don’t have the proper “final mem”. I haven’t been able to find that in my fonts. Just mentioning, because for all I know, someone out there knows where to find one of those.
Is it safe to assume that GWB is out of town today?
jayt @ 32
Camp David is getting a lot of use in his terms….
Russ Feingold was invited, could not make it, but they are reading a letter from him.
Aren’t the plans to embed the US troops in Iraqi units going to lead to more of this?
john conyers up now on C-Span
When I read stuff like this post, and I hear how well executed the enemies actions were and how well coordinated, and I have to ask again, why is it we need to stay and train the Iraqis? It’s not as if they never had a country before, it’s not as if they don’t have knowledge of warfare. They seem to be doing quite an effective job of killing already. I hardly think we’ll improve on that. This is essentially a civil war and us being around so prominently just provides focus and targets.
Just ran for my voice recorder to capture Conyers speaking.
Ann in AZ @ 29
Typing from my creator’s home state, I of course relish the opportunity.
-
OT – GrandmaJ, please see my post about sharing in room at the end of the thread “In other News”…
The other Grandma Jo.
QuentinCompson @ 39
People like Hillary are equally at fault. She has supported this war on an ongoing basis.
there it is, we need politicians to hammer this home, there is no way to trust anything the president says conerning national security
we have no idea if what the president is saying concerning Iran is true or false, nobody knows because we can’t trust the administration
Lynn Woolsey up now.
Congresswoman Lynn Woolsey up now!!! Yay!
They said she’s going to introduce on omnibus bill for–I missed it.
The news about the soldiers kidnapped and killed in Karbala is especially distressing because they appear to have been meeting to try to secure Karbala for the worshippers coming for Ashura.
Excerpted from http://gorillasguides.com/
Just imagine if 400 christians were killed at christmas on their way to hearing the pope say mass in Rome. What would the rest of the christian world say about security in Rome?
So what are the Shias going to say when the Americans can’t even protect their own soldiers in Karbala, not to mention the population?
HR 508
maxine waters up on C-Span
Here’s a PDA link to Woolsey’s H.R. 508 bill- http://www.pdamerica.org/artic…..7-news.php
maxine waters is smokin’
Maxine: “I will not vote one dime for this war.”
Maxine Waters: He is not the Decider, he is the liar!!
W00t! Rocky Anderson!
“Lying for Bush is one thing. Dying’s another. Good flacks are so hard to find.”
http://www.tnr.com/blog/theplank?pid=74925
Mommybrain @ 22
Sorry, had to fix a faucet for my dad. In Sacramento
Ann in AZ @ 37
Where did they get the new-style US Army uniforms?
How good was their English? Did they pass for native speakers? At least for a few words?
Where did they get the vehicles?
Ann, one of the complaints coming out of the US military about the “they’ll stand up and we’ll stand down” plan was that the Iraqis didn’t perform up to US standards even after extensive training: they lacked fire discipline and motivation. This isn’t surprising, not because Iraqis are somehow incapable of performing at an American level, but because if the individual soldiers are not committed to the Iraqi Army and to a whole set of assumptions that drive American soldiers, they’re not going to throw themselves into the fight. So I don’t think that the Iraqi Army is ever going to reach the level of discipline, dedication and trust required for them to perform effectively.
But we don’t know which “enemies” these attacker were. Where did they get their training? This sounds like a dedicated, highly-trained set of folks … were they Iraqis? A Sunni element? All disturbing.
lot more politicians there today than was advertised…
Jesus, – Maxine Waters!!
So……. how much of this week’s noise from the administration through their various surrogates was a means to sell the escalation….and how much of it was to basically give cover and drown upcoming news of what really happened during the ambush in Karbala?
I see the VP come out of his bunker and all I can think of is what Cathy Martin testified to about getting the VP out front in the Press. MTP wouldnt have worked this week (even though it may be their best venue) because this news was going to hit before the weekend. They had to quickly get him on Wolf’s show to try to get a head of the story. His angry penguin act would get the bulk of the news hits in an attempt to distract from the LIbby case, and other damaging news that was in the pipe.
Anderson: war was sold to us …with the aid and assistance of a DISMAL mainstream media”.
It’s all very well for Ms. Dowd to criticize the current administration… but I am still very annoyed with her for her many highly-public, nasty, derogatory little digs at Al Gore during the 2000 campaign.
Maureen Dowd is one of the reasons we’re in this mess, and I hold her responsible for her share in it.
OT….Just heard Maxine Waters at the Peace March….He’s not the DECIDER, he’s the LIAR!!
Bush must have gotten wind of that slogan and had to change himself into the “decision maker”. You know how this administration governs by slogan. They sure didn’t want a good slogan catching on.
He’s not the decider…He’s the LIAR!!!!
Gotta love Maxine!
And Cheney’s obfuscation and refusal to answer the questions, notsogood either. Maybe woulda played last year, but not now.
The WH is also desperate on the war, trying to get support in Congress when most of the Repugs are also losing the “stomach” for it.
The kool-aide is getting bitter.
neil @ 53
“Ev’rybody wants t’ go the distance, when they’re travelin’ on somebody else’s dime…”
- Bill Champlin, “Bring Home the Gold,” Hip Li’l Dreams CD
_____
Go fuck yourself, Mr. Five-Deferments Cheney
_
neil @ 53
Thanks for quoting the Dowd column. The NYT lead editorial is also excellent, today, on how we can’t trust this administration to tell us the straight story on anything, from Iraq to wiretaps, etc.
Armies of occupation never win …
ever
all the talk of “insurgents” and such covers up the reality of Iraq – we are occupying a sovereign nation and have sown chaos and destruction …
if you haven’t seen this, watch and see the roles US troops are playing as they “train” iraqi forces:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nuMAooG6SM
OT In his radio address today, Bush concentrated on his healthcare and energy proposals but invoked “bipartisanship” once again on and showed how this was done by taking another swipe at Democrats:
He goes on to mention (although not by name) two Senators who are across-the-aisle-reachers with short quotes from them. This got me wondering who they were and if they were among the usual suspects, i.e. Joseph Lieberman, Ben Nelson, etc. Well, I was half right. Bush indicates one this way:
Here is what I found doing some googling:
Sen. Barack Obama (Illinois)
From RS Redstate (No, I won’t link to them.)
The second bipartisan Democrat was described this way:
Sen. Ben Nelson (Nebraska)
http://blog.thehill.com/category/healthcare
So what exactly is going on here? Obama is the one who popularized the “not red, not blue, but purple” theme but his voting record is mostly liberal. Ben Nelson on the other hand is someone who voted consistently with the Republicans on all the important issues in the last Congress. I would like to read some message into these choices and the indirect way they were alluded to but I’m not sure there is one. Rather Bush is making another vacuous appeal to a bipartisanship that equates to doing what he says. As for Obama and Nelson in their comments after the State of the Union, they too were making empty appeals to a bipartisanship that flies in the face of the last 6 years and the most polarizing President in our history. In this they were hardly alone. This also from Redstate:
Sen. Hillary Clinton:
In other words, kabuki in Washington lives on. Bipartisanship is praised, partisan politics are decried, and then it is back to business as usual.
Bush’s vapid radio address can be found here:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news…..70127.html
But we don’t know which “enemies” these attacker were. Where did they get their training? This sounds like a dedicated, highly-trained set of folks … were they Iraqis? A Sunni element? All disturbing.
Ex-Republican Guard, AKA Bremer’s Folly?
-
Nice work linking the quotes, Hugh.
Only mildly off-topic… the Bushies seem to be taking some extraordinary steps to hide government responses to civil lawsuits related to domestic spying.
Respectful Dissent @ 59
Yes, very disturbing? Former Republican guard? Al Queda? Shi’a? When will we figure out that we no longer know who the “enemy” is. If the army that we’re training is in it just for a paycheck due to the high unemployment rate (that we created), and this is their day job, but their night job is firing shoulder held missiles or planting IEDs, how do we determine which of them is sandbagging? This administration has put us in a no win position, but they just refuse to admit it. Meanwhile they send more and more of our sons into this quagmire, with no end in sight, and Dems keep taking tools off the table.
Watada’s father!!!
Lt. Watada’s father is speaking.
Don’t know why they bothered to cover up a well-planned, well-financed operation which obviously benefitted from fabulous intel and police complicity. Reaching right into a governor’s office like something out of James Bond is no big deal.
And happening right before the SOTU? Right before genius-general’s confirmation? No problem. The incident could’ve been spun-n-run by “Iranian secret agents.”
My name is Maxine Waters and I voted for Steny Hoyer instead of John Murtha…Why, again?
I didn’t follow the Hoyer-Murtha thing too closely, but I saw something from Murtha recently that concerned me. Need to find the link.
montag at 72 — that’s a really distrubing story, and from the same folks who are replacing US attorneys with political hacks without Senate confirmation. Once you move to lawlessness, you have to stay lawless and limit or avoid any judicial oversight. They can’t/won’t/don’t want to get out the trap they’re in. The only way to stop them is to remove them from office.
The failure in the Bush Cheney Presidency comes down to this one thing, credibility. If the American people do not trust the President, then the President cannot lead. Policy aside, lie repeatedly to citizens and they will not follow you anywhere.
On major issues and in significant ways, the American people have been played by George Bush. He says left, we find out the truth is right. He says WMD, we find out no WMD, not true. He says Heckuva job Brownie, we know better already. There were too many Americans without food or water pleading for assistance to believe that – our own lying eyes. Bush says they’ll greet us as liberators and pay for it with oil revenues. Personally, I know of $350-$500 Billion reasons that is not true. Bush says al Quada in Iraq Mohammad Atta and Saddam, mobile weapon labs, mass quantities of Uranium from Niger. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
I like Fitz’s baseball metaphor. In baseball, it’s three strikes and you’re out. Maybe that’s something W could understand.
From the Wall of Separation blog
mandrake @ 9
Yes, I know some peole I’ve blogged with over the years. How about you?
Jesse Jackson
jesse jackson up
Surprised to see the Mayor of Salt Lake City! He gave a very good speech!
The 6th grade girl was an inspiration.
Many great speakers, and great passion.
neil @ 82
Don’t know anyone. Wish I could be there, though.
OT, apologies. Albatross (at #3 and #4), Glad to see Lao Tzu appear here. Thanks. Some translations that might be preferable to Mitchell (Red Pine, Waley, Ellen Chen, D C Lau, Feng & English, Chan, Victor Mair, LaFargue).
Scarecrow @ 79
Yup… they can’t stop now, even if they wanted to, and they don’t. Does that sound a bit like the Nixon years? Does to me.
Scott Armstrong, who started the National Security Archive, said a while back that, in terms of the amount of effort expended, all administrations spend the most time and effort keeping secrets from the public, next largest effort, keeping secrets from the press, next largest, from other agencies of government, and the least amount of effort keeping secrets from foreign powers.
The whole system has been rigged for maximum power in the Executive branch, right from the advent of the 1947 National Security Act. The Bushies have just been more creative in their means than anyone else to date. We can thank Shooter and his pals (Rummy, Addington, Libby, Hannah, Cambone, et al) for that.
If I had been of age during the time the ‘foreigners’ were trying to occupy my ancestor’s land and the U.S. Cavalry were slaughtering our mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, grandparents, cousins and others, I would have fought them with every means at my disposal.
bg @ 65
The kool-aid has fermented for so long, they are no longer getting a buzz, it’s making them sick. And I hope they’re hugging the porcelain right now.
Every time he opens that dumb yap, he sinks further…
_____
Scarecrow, great catch on the timing of this during the Friday news dump.
I think one aspect of this that has not been emphasized is that the attackers had good intelligence on when the meeting was taking place, where it was taking place, how many targets were involved, and what the security arrangements were. Karbala is a Shia city but the attackers were Sunnis. Some of the scoping out, like checkpoint procedures, was probably done by outsiders, but the efficiency of the attack suggests that they also had someone on the inside.
Andrew Murray. Stop the War Coalition, speaking about how British people are with the American people in stopping the war.
In his 2007 State-of-the-Union address, President Bush stated that “Failure in Iraq would be a disaster for the United States.” But the U.S. didn’t fail in its original mission of forcing Iraq to give up its WMD programs. In fact, before Bush was elected, Bill Clinton had already achieved that objective with very little bloodshed and expense. So Bush embarked on a secondary mission of nation building, which he had promised the nation he’d never do. And his effort has been a failure and “a disaster for the United States.”
Now Bush should STFU and go hunting with his vice president.
Hugh @ 92
Yes. Larry Johnson also picks up on the implications for security. We don’t know who the enemy is, who are friends are, whom to trust. We can’t even assume that someone in a US uniform, with US weapons, in US vehicles speaking English is on our side. I remember Petraeus’ earlier question to a reporter: “Tell me how this ends.”
Renee in Ohio @ 81
Hmmm…I wonder if this is the same sort of thing that Hillary did with the flag burning deal that she supported. (No chance it would pass, but might buy some votes on the other side.) I don’t like it when our Congresscritters mess with the bill of rights, and I won’t be voting for Hillary because of it. But I put little past Steny Hoyer too, so, all in all, I think Murtha has shown better leadership in very important matters, although I know he’s more conservative than we would like. And actually, I’m equally concerned about relaxation of separation of church and state because I can see it infringing on parochial schools right to teach religion as a part of their curriculum. As a disclaimer, I was educated in a Catholic school. Of course, I’m way fallen away now. Still, the quality of education and the discipline is excellent, I dare say, better than in most public schools I’ve seen.
As an aside, BTW, Renee, I think I left you a note at the bottom of a post several days ago. Didn’t you say you are of Slovak descent? So am I, 100%. My parents were both first generation Slovak born in this country.
A meeting in Basrah between Sadrists and Sunni leaders concluded two days ago.
http://arablinks.blogspot.com/
Friday, January 26, 2007
Efforts are continuing to organize a joint Shia-Sunni program in Iraq
This was published by Aswat al-Iraq yesterday, and it speaks for itself.
A Sunni-Shiite fraternal council, organized by [an institution commemorating Moqtada’s father] and the Islamic Party of Iraq, wound up two days of activities in Basra today. Abdulkarim Jarrad, head of the Islamic Party in Basra, told Voices of Iraq that attendees, in addition to representatives of the two sides, included also other religious and social leaders, and he said these meetings “differ from earlier meetings we have had together with [the Sadr group] in that it included legal and political studies and [the creation of] working groups that will continue efforts to make sure the recommendations are translated into action”.
Jarrad added that the council issued a final statement that included disavowing takfiiris and Saddamists, agreeing on rejection of the occupation, and declaring that it [the occupation] is the first and the last cause of sectarian fitna.
He said the final statement also stressed the need to work to spare the blood of Muslims, Shiia and Sunni alike; to end the practice of forced migrations on both sides; and to invite the return of those who have been subjected to that; and to set up a council to implement that.
The final statement also urged the following: that other religious, tribal and political leaders organize similar fraternal meetings; that there be a timetable for the withdrawal of the occupation forces from Iraq; and that security in Basra be turned over to the Iraqi government once there has been established a sound security force based on national loyalty.
Scarecrow @ 67: This one?
Sean Penn on C SPAN
I now see Sean penn, Jane Fonda, and Susan Sarandon in the background, presumably about to speak
Sean Penn says we are dependent on our congress, but out congress is dependent on us. We’ll be behind those who represent us on this.
hoo boy – severely EPUed -
Scarecrow – save this to Favorites = http://www.erh.noaa.gov/ndfd/g…..x.php#tabs
Have a safe trip.
Excellent Post! Ultimately however, I think a key factor in this is the lack of a journalism/news professionalism association who could/would hold them responsible. Why isn’t there any questioning in MSM of the Friday dumping, say as a special section of the Sunday news shows. In some ways it is all just more of the same with these guys.
OT but the Ohio people whose misconduct changed the last election. They get punished perhaps, but the results are allowed to stand!
Jane Fonda: We were here before we went into Iraq. Thank you for speaking up. The soul of our country is alive and well.
Penn argues. Stop war funding now. If Dems don’t, Dems don’t get our vote in ‘08.
Jane Fonda up now.
Siun @ 97
That’s one of the more hopeful stories we’ve seen. Let’s hope the effort gets some traction.
Driveby, but still, about news.
RevDeb spotted this about Molly Ivins, who is not doing well and could use some prayers/good thoughts, and there is a candle group for her here.
who is in charge at the White House? repeat after me, Cheney is in charge, Bush is an empty suit. This explains everything. And, that’s why it’s very important to IMPEACH CHENEY FIRST. (sorry for yelling)
Jane: One difference between Viet Nam and Iraq, it took six years in Viet Nam and 3 for Iraq. 34 years since I spoke out like this. Silence is no longer an option. Daughter here and grandchildren.
Ann, I missed your comment so thanks for the heads-up. I think my maternal grandmother was all Slovak, second generation. I was always told “Czechoslovakian”, and didn’t actually ask which of those two we were until recently.
Jane has a good speach, her daughter, her grandchildren.
Scarecrow – note in that article that the participants were “agreeing on rejection of the occupation, and declaring that it [the occupation] is the first and the last cause of sectarian fitna.”
Kathryn in MA @ 102
Hey, Kathryn, that’s really helpful. Thanks.
If things stand they way they are now, and it’s a choice between Hagel and Clinton in ‘08, then based on each of these candidates position on Iraq, then for the first time, this Dem will vote Republican. So Hillary, Rahm, and DLC, I may have a choice afterall.
70% divorce rate for returning soldiers.
The frustrating thing is that we can’t really trust the media to actually report the true facts, and even when they do, it’s usually weeks late and treated as if it’s just standard news fare, rather than propaganda or a cover-up. I realize this story was actually corrected fairly quickly, but think about Jessica Lynch, Pat Tilman, the helicopters that “crash” for no apparent reason, the “contractors” whose role is never really explained, the body counts that get inflated, etc., ad nauseum.
I would think that anyone who considered themselves a professional journalist would get seriously angry about being propagandized and spun so constantly, and would react by scrutinizing all of the official accounts with great care. But it doesn’t seem to bother the crop we have now. Even when they do correct the story, they just act as though it’s business as usual.
Doc @ 116
I am so with you.
Siun @ 112
Yes, I saw that. I’m perfectly happy to take the blame, if they’ll agree to stop killing/displacing each other.
Susan Sarandon: Imagine life in Iraq. You’ve lost everything. Speaking about the returning soldiers, problems with VA, homelessness, unemployment, problems getting pay, mental health problems, suicide, divorce. Drop in benefits, no mention in SOTU. Listen to returning soldiers.
Commit to caring for them.
Cut the funding? Damn str8!
Renee in Ohio @ 115
Link?
Susan Sarandan just said that, jeffreyw.
jeffreyw @ 121
Jane Fonda just said it now on C-span radio – at the rally.
Renee in Ohio @ 122
OK, thanks. Seems very, very high.
lying thieving bastards destroying this Country
What’s wrong with parents who perhaps encourage their children to serve in the military under this particular Commander in Chief?
Sorry, maybe it was Susan (the voice sounded like Jane).
Renee in Ohio @ 110
Well, it’s nice to meet you!
Tim Robbins: Karl Rove subpoened-great cheers from audience. Two weeks training for soldiers. Impeachment-cheers. Impeachment-more cheers! Let’s get them out of office before -crowd cheering Impeachment-he starts ruling from a bunker. Before he is talking only to Barney. Bush is talking to God, but not a god i recognize.
Nixon talked to the walls.
Did a double take when T Robbins showed, thought he was Jack Bauer.
You too, Ann.
My voice recorder died, so I’m not recording these speeches. I hope they are posted somewhere.
Tim Robbins is talking about how George Bush’s god is pretty unrecognizable to him, giving George a pass on many of the commandments.
Nice picture up of the rally at Huffington.
Robbins: Bush’s god counsels him to ignore his father. Thou shalt not kill or recklessly risk the lives of our soldiers or Iraqi civilians. Only god knows how many have been killed.
Scarecrow – just wanted to highlight that since I have recently been in several conversations where folks – who I respect – are surprised at the idea that we instigated the sectarian violence … the lack of genuine, independent, truthful coverage of what is happening in Iraq has created, even amongst progressives, an impression that this violence is somehow the normal condition in Iraq instead of a horror imposed by our occupation.
Lining up for march. Follow the banner. Sean, Jessee and other speakers are leading. Red buckets for money to pay expenses.
Music by someone from the Hip-Hop Caucus.
Does anyone know if you can stream the protest on C-Span tv or anyone. I have radio, but would love to see pix. And thanks everyone for the live stream here.
Hip Hop caucus -hip hop not war. Bedoin says it’s the fault of people who voted for Bush that we are in this war. Islam means peace. Don’t get it twisted. Singing “As long as We Don’t Take a Stand”.
Scarecrow — a daunting job that should be undertaken on the left is a Friday-by-Friday analysis of stories dumped deliberately by this administration.
The other incident that happened this past week, receiving little real scrutiny in the media, was the military helicopter crash that killed 13 (or 12, depending on what you read). What the media failed to disclose adequately were the nature of the folks on the craft — 2 Colonels, 1 Lieutenant Colonel, 1 Major, 1 Captain, 2 Command Sargeants, 1 First Sargeant, 2 Staff Sargeants, 1 Sargeant First Class, and 1 Corporal — some of whom may have just met with SecDef Gates.
Who knew about this flight? Who knew about the profile of the targets?
And are we going to have to wait another Friday to learn more?
Poor Poppy Bush, when he’s not weeping he’s whining.
-GSD
Hugh @ 69. I’m glad you spent the time to research, right it up and post it.
To our vacuous President, words are a means to manipulate. He is a thouroughly corrupt. He confuses justification with just.
CSpan now replacing the rally with a Hillary election event in Iowa. That this whole war is continuing (and escalating!!) is in part because of her.
Wonder if our (Demo) “front-runner” is paying attention to the anti-war rally.
Rayne,
Do you have a link on the helicopter crash victims?
In case you missed the earlier link, there’s a nice tribute to the great Molly Ivins (who’s in the hospital), by RJ Eskow, over at C&L:
Molly Ivins
Hill makes my jaws ache.
Scarecrow @ 95
Thanks, I just read the Larry Johnson piece. I think that this incident will make interactions between troops and Iraqis harder since American troops will have to guarantee their own security. I see the mistaking Iraqis as Americans as less of a problem for Americans. There will probably be some limited tactical advantage at a distance or at night but not up close. OTOH this could pose a lot of problems for Iraqis. How do you distinguish between American troops, private security contractors, and disguised insurgents?
The larger problem is and has been credibility. It is not just the stories like this one or on Pat Tillman. It is generals like Pace, Abizaid, Casey, Petraeus, etc. saying for years now that this is winable that they can do it or not with more troops.
This I think was one of the central lessons of Vietnam. At a certain point, the discrepancy between the reality and the rhetoric makes them irrelevant to the perception. This has now happened in Iraq. The Powell Doctrine warned that broad public support was necessary to sustain a war. That requires truth telling from both politicians and generals. When this doesn’t happen, it begins to add up until a critical mass is reached. After that, it doesn’t matter what Bush and Petraeus say, no one will be listening. This is where we are in Iraq now.
GSD @ 140
Poopy’s part of the same mafia–just from the generation who preferred to do things by stealth.
Poopy can kiss my ass. His boy’s a reflection of his upbringing.
Rayne @ 139
Rayne — yes, there’s probably more to that story. I think it was NBC news two nights ago that did a five minute highlight of those killed, explaining they tended to be older — they were members of a National Guard Unit, and most had children. There were several dozen surviving children from those killed.
Terry Olson –
USAToday link, dd. 20-JAN-07
NYT article on same, dd. 21-JAN-07 — note in particular comments regarding the method by which helicopter was brought down.
Names and ranks of victims – From Army Times, 24-JAN-07
This story may have been lost in the coverage about another copter brought down — Blackwater, with 4 or 5 passengers — and the subsequent “discovery” this past Thurs/Friday that the passengers were “executed”. (Another Friday news dump?)
Ivins is a GIANT! We have Molly and her amazing guts… and then we have, Hillary.
jeffreyw @ 124
Divorce rate is 50% in the general population. It’s not surprising that it’s 20% higher among Iraq war vets.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 151
Great contrast. Now why can’t we have women like Molly Ivins for President? Or Ann Richards.
GSD @ 140
What’s he whining about now?
there may be another shoe to drop in this story
one of the interim reports said
“the soldiers and the computer were taken away”
no other reports I read mentioned a computer and the article mentioning the computer did not describe it prior to saying the soldiers and the computer were taken away
Scarecrow — which means they tried to do a redirect with the story, pointing instead to the relatively higher age of the victims and the collateral damage, rather than allow the underlying challenges gain attention.
Their rank reflected their tenure with the service — and by corollary, their ages and accumulated “personal collateral”.
Bottomline: I wonder whether the SecDef narrowly missed assassination because infiltration and security breaches are now so endemic — and I wonder whether they’ve tried to hide this in plain site.
It’s like the Pat Tillman story: “Oh, look, what a true American hero!!!” That worked until his family broke through the BS.
Richmond @ 142
I know of and hear from so many people who still thinks she’s great. And I think many are under the mistaken impression that she opposed the war and occupation just because she is being critical now, incredibly late in the game. Picking up on the media deception comments above, this is a great example of how uninformed people are about candidates, about a lot of things.
And while we’re on the subject, has anyone seem msm coverage of the Republicans voting down the minimum wage?
Richmond @ 137
C SPAN has an RSS feed that shows all their new video as they get it up on the web. I subscribed to is yesterday – to see Marcy talk about the Libby Trial. I think they’ll post coverage of the rally. When they do, I’ll post the link. OK?
I’m pissed at Hillary for scheduling her Des Moines Town Hall. I guess I was pissed at Hillary before that -when she started moving so far to the right that she supported a Constitutional Amendment to make flag-buring illegal protest.
Howie Klein will be along in a few seconds or so with a Blue America featuring Dr. Steve Porter, an anti-war, progressive candidate last fall in Pennsylvania.
Please stop by to chat with Howie and Dr. Porter.
New thread
This from the NYT (yes, sometimes they do have good articles which I will acknowledge whenever it happens) on Defense Secretary Gates’ new approach to news conferences.
Let’s see more informal but also less accessible and more uncomfortable. Way to go, Gates. You’re learning the Bush way fast.
Scarecrow – you are a wonderful writer. Simply one of the best.
The first thing I thought when I read the true accounting of what happened is that the soldiers were most likely brutally tortured before they were shot. Can you imagine the fear they must have felt when they realized the situation they were in?
I hope the war protest today is huge and that the media reports are accurate about both the numbers and the composition of Americans who are participating in the protest (if it’s anything like the last big war protest in DC there will be a true cross section of concerned Americans).
mandrake @ 154
He needs to stop whining and fix this mess his son has created. This time it affects all of us. If he doen’t fix it, he needs to realize that the legacy of the Bush family is now the legacy of George W. Bush. That’s enough to make anyone weep.
Hearing this story shortly after it was reported that Gates and Petraeus had repeated the President’s meme about not supporting his policies would embolden our enemies I have to wonder if they aren’t already emboldened. No wonder they wanted to bury this story.
woops, hope I can find something good on another channel – seeing Hill is such a let down after that inspiring, heart-swelling rally – playing some lame music for her lead-in. bleh.
REMOTE!
Gates was in Iraq last Friday; you’ll have to scroll down the article a bit to read this.
And while I was looking around for confirmation on Gates’ whereabouts last Friday/Saturday, look what I found posted Friday in Pearl Harbor HI (scroll down a bit):
Good gravy. We have 3-4 weeks to stop these *ssholes.
Thanks, dab from CT. Yes, it would be helpful if the crowds are huge and the coverage extensive. I think that unlike Vietnam, the anti-war groups are now seen as representative of a large majority of Americans — we aren’t just the “dirty hippies” any more.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 89
Amen, OKK.
Yo. Howie’s got Dr. Porter upstairs for some Blue America love
Scarecrow @ 166
That won’t stop CNN from trying to repeat the “dirty hippie” meme, that is if they give it any coverage at all. Let’s see them give this some decent airplay. Not holding my breath, however.
Hugh @ 160
Power play. Well hell, why didn’t he just piss on ‘em and be real about it?
From: http://kucinich.house.gov/News…..ntID=56365
Washington, Jan 26 – WASHINGTON, D.C. (Jan. 26) — Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) accused the White House of mounting a media blitz to prepare the U.S. public for an eventual attack on Iran. Today The Washington Post reported the Bush administration has authorized the U.S. military to kill or capture Iranian operatives inside Iraq as part of an aggressive new strategy to weaken Tehran’s influence across the Middle East.
“The White House is up to its old tricks again: Providing information by anonymous sources and portraying Iran as an aggressor in Iraq,” Kucinich said.
“The President is mischaracterizing U.S. action vis vis Iran. In fact, the U.S. is already engaged in offensive and provocative acts against Iran. The President’s strategy, by portraying our involvement as only being on the defensive, is laying out the groundwork for him to attack Iran and bypass authorization by Congress,” Kucinich said.
(contd)
Neil @ 170 – Sorry Link doesn’t work. Try this.
Skanking1 @
163
Petraeus refused to endorse Bush’s “surge.” Per the following article: “He said, ‘I believe’ the new plan could work.” http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2…..e/?opinion
In fact, Petraeus wrote the manual on counter-insurgency, and there he said that it requires 20 combat troops per 1000 population, i.e., 500,000 to cover Iraq. In fact, even with the “surge” we won’t have that ratio even in Baghdad.
Rove and Dan Bertlett (”White House Spokesman”) Get Subpoenas
White House Bigwigs Called to Testify in Defense of Former Vice Presidential Aide ‘Scooter’ Libby
By JOHN HENDREN
Jan. 27, 2007 — – Presidential advisor Karl Rove and White House communications director Dan Bartlett have received subpoenas to testify for the defense at the trial of former vice presidential aide I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, ABC News has learned from a lawyer with knowledge of the case.
The Libby defense indicated in March 2006 court papers that Karl Rove will be a “key witness” in the trial, and will testify concerning a conversation with Libby on July 10 or 11, 2003, regarding columnist Robert Novak’s intent to print a story about Valerie Plame’s employment at the CIA.
Trial watchers said the subpoenas make it clearer than ever that Libby’s defense team will seek to put the Bush administration and its policies on trial.
“This is obviously primarily about the guilt or innocence of the defendant,” former Deputy Attorney General Eric Holder told ABC News. “But in a larger sense, it’s going to be an examination and perhaps even a trial about how this administration has conducted itself on matters of national security and on Iraq, specifically.”
Libby is charged with perjury, making false statements and obstructing an investigation. His troubles began in 2003, when the name of a covert CIA operative, Plame, was leaked to a reporter. Naming a clandestine government operative is a crime.
The leak, according to the prosecution, marked an effort to discredit her husband, Joseph Wilson, who was critical of President Bush’s claim during a State of the Union address that Iraq had been trying to acquire uranium from Niger.
Since then, the White House claim of Iraq’s alleged effort to acquire nuclear materials has been widely discredited as false, and even the Bush administration no longer supports it. The perjury case centers largely on when Libby discovered Plame’s name.
The latest subpoenas add two more high-profile witnesses to a trial that has already drawn in an impressive cadre of some of Washington’s most prominent and politically connected figures.
Among the potential witnesses for the government’s case against Libby, compiled based on statements made in court and more than 250 filings in the case, are:
Tim Russert of NBC News, host of “Meet the Press”
Judith Miller, a former New York Times reporter
Matt Cooper, a former Time reporter currently with Cond Nast
Marc Grossman, former Under Secretary of State
David Addington, the vice president’s chief of staff
Craig Schmall, a CIA briefer who Libby spoke to about leaks from the CIA
Robert Grenier; a “senior CIA official” described in paragraph 7 of the indictment- who might have told Libby that Valerie Plame directed Wilson’s Niger trip
Ari Fleischer; Former White House Press Secretary Libby allegedly told him Plame worked for the CIA
Yet Libby’s witness list is even more impressive, as it includes a sitting vice president:
Vice President Dick Cheney
Rove
NBC News correspondent Andrea Mitchell, who hosted “Meet the Press” when Wilson appeared on the program
Richard Armitage, former deputy secretary of state and a source for Novak
George Tenet, former CIA director
Bill Harlow, a former CIA spokesman who told Catherine Martin, Cheney’s director of communications, that Plame did work for the CIA
Bob Novak, who used Rove, Harlow and Armitage as the sources of his article that first disclosed Plame’s name
John McLaughlin, director of central intelligence
Stephen Hadley, national security advisor
Joseph Wilson and Valerie Plame (Wilson is attempting to quash this subpoena)
Washington Post reporter Bob Woodward, who taped an interview with Armitage that the Libby defense has sought in a subpoena
It’s been an extraordinary week in the trial.
Libby told investigators that he thought he heard Plame’s name from a reporter. Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald opened his case on Jan. 23 by arguing that Libby must have lied to investigators because he had been speaking of Plame before he spoke to NBC’s Tim Russert.
Libby’s defense has suggested Libby made an honest mistake.
Libby’s lawyer, Theodore V. Wells Jr., has made Rove a key figure in the case, saying that in order to protect Rove as a possible leaker, “Scooter Libby was to be sacrificed.”
Fitzgerald has ruled out charges against Rove in the case. (This claim is based soley on Luskin, Rove’s attorney, assertions. However, if Rove has blank immunity from Fitz in returnfor his testimony, then it could also be true.) But in May 2006, ABC News reported the Libby defense said in open court that it would seek Rove’s testimony for Libby’s defense.
It was also disclosed this week that Cheney wrote a note that Libby’s defense argues shows that Libby was a scapegoat.
“Not going to protect one staffer sacrifice the guy who was asked to stick his neck in the meat grinder,” Cheney wrote.
It’s not clear how the claim that Libby was sacrificed for Rove’s benefit helps Libby in the case. But the argument embarrasses the secretive Bush administration and potentially increases sympathy for him among a jury that was heavily vetted because so many potential jurors — including one CIA agent — had at least tangential ties to the case in a capital known for its tangled relationships.
“What I think they’re trying to do is contrast that he’s a busy guy who obviously could be expected not to remember a variety of things,” Holder said, “and beyond that to show that he was being taken advantage of by other people in the administration.”
Although Rove was called for the defense, Holder said, that doesn’t mean he will be cooperative.
“They might even try to have him declared a hostile witness,” Holder said.
Libby’s attorneys also indicated they want to know more about immunity granted reluctantly by prosecutors to another presidential aide, former White House spokesman Ari Fleischer.
LINK
Here, now, the AP reports on the rally with a photo of Jane Fonda and Eve Ensler. Not that I have anything against them and I thought they gave great speeches, but how about a photo of the Iraq Veterans?! This is typical. Knowing how hated Fonda is by some on the right (you can imagine how they feel about Eve Ensler), let’s “show the nutty liberals” and ignore the vets and the soldier’s families who were also there and who spoke with eloquence and passion from personal experience.
Maybe it’s the clarity of the pine-scented air of Northern Minnesota, but this small-town editorial gets it exactly right. Read the whole thing and resolve with me to restore the image of Minnesota politicians to the greatness of Humphrey and Gene McCarthy and Mondale, instead of the little twigs like Coleman and Bachmann.
http://www.parkrapidsenterpris…..fm?id=7542
Quoting Humphrey:
mandrake @ 169
I had my 20 year old daughter with me at the last big rally in DC (we were right next the the Code Pink ladies). My sister had her two children, 9 & 11.
I was particularly touched by an elderly woman walking next to us, using a cane – and the groups of Vietnam vets that joined the protest.
(The funniest part of the event were the Billionares for Bush gang)
Thank you to those who liveblogged the speeches for us. I’m assuming there are more people there than the “tens of thousands” AP refers to.
neil (175) — thanks for sharing that. I might add a cautionary note here; the article is quoted in its entirety here, and is copyrighted material. It might be better to excerpt the points you want to make, use the Quote feature to offset them from normal commentary.
John Edwards sucking up to Isreal and talking tough to Iran, Syria and Palestine.
Army Lt. Gen. David H. Petraeus, the new top U.S. commander in Iraq, told Congress that he might supplement efforts to secure Baghdad using the Iraqi Facilities Protection Service, a 150,000-man force that guards Iraqi government agencies. But that service is widely considered unreliable, and elements were described in July by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki as “more dangerous than the militias,”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01494.html
WASHINGTON — The Iraq Study Group’s grim report embraces the most worrisome estimates about Muqtada al-Sadr’s private army: He has up to 60,000 fighters, and his followers are planted throughout the security forces protecting the Health Ministry and other Iraqi government institutions.
Making matters worse, the high-level panel believes the cleric himself may not be able to manage the diverse and growing parts of his network known as the Mahdi army.Showing al-Sadr’s deep infiltration into the government, the report found that Iraqis loyal to him dominate the 145,000-strong Facilities Protection Service, which guards the ministries of Health, Agriculture and Transportation _ all controlled by al-Sadr’s political allies. While providing jobs and money for the Mahdi army, the protective service has questionable loyalty to the civilian government, the report said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01159.html
Ned Lamont at Yale University 01.24.07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..8&eurl
tulip. you here?
if so, check downstairs under “Pull Up A Chair” for link you wanted (Marcy on C-Span) (#202) ;->
My brother’s at the DC march, using his new videocam. If he can master it and get some video uploaded, we’ll air it, but it may be tomorrow as he lacks liveblogging capacity.
((((((((((((((((((((Molly)))))))))))))))))
Wonder if any DC folks can find out more; is she able to get messages? Flowers?
Arianna pops John McCain.
on topic:
I think that most Iraqis believe now that if captured or arrested by the US military it means being tortured and/or killed for little or no reason or explanation. This goes double for real “insurgents”, they just assume the good old US of A will torture and/or execute them on the spot or with no due process what-so-ever.
So what do they have to lose by doing the exact same thing to captured US troops? What do we have left to threaten them with, torture and/or execution?
With even the slightest whiff of Geneva Conventions being abandoned by the US military, for all practical purposes, the “insurgents” next step will be to kick this up a notch.
Not only capture US troops, but execute them on video and broadcast/distribute the finish product to the Iraq populous.
The other lie that the MSM whores helped cover up initially was that the other helicopter that when down this week past, with the 4 private mercenaries on board, crash landed with the men on board still alive tho injured. They were then all executed with shots to the back of the head.
Mercenaries deserve no rights or mercy, they are male whores who sell their bodies for money to kill people, not to defend family or country, just money. Mercenaries are also just common spies according to the “rules” of war, they have no official uniforms.
But the Bush private mercenary army in Iraq right now, is helping to set the precedent of how the “insurgents” will treat US soldiers, if captured, with their lawless, unaccountable behavior.
US troops are going to reap the whirlwind of Abu Graihb blowback and a hundred thousand “private contractor/ mercenaries” run amok. And at this point in history, the videos of US troops being executed in cold blood, will probably end up on YouTube, just like Saddam’s dignified hanging did.
There weren’t thousands of handheld video cams in Vietnam on the battlefield, there are in Iraq.
The Whole World is Watching
Gentleman Jim @ 186
This is such an inconvenient fact. The administration did not, nor could it have, predicted such a thing could happen any more than they could have predicted the sectarian violence that followed after they destroyed Iraq’s infrastructure. Please do not bother the Decision-Maker with such untidy and troubling facts.
I want to let everyone here know that I thank them very much. If you read Jane’s Back in the Saddle post, she linked to a fundraiser that I was doing to get some help for my mom.
Mission accomplished.
In less than 48 hours of putting up the donation link (and within 24 hours of Jane’s post) I received enough contributions to fix my mom’s car.
I wanted to come here and thank you all personally, but I do have a more detailed message at my own site.
Thank you FDL community!
mandrake @ 180
Yup, I saw that too. I’ve had to reconsider my support for him for that position but that can change if he becomes a reasonable broker instead of a monger.
I figured it was too good to be true, and it was.
Scarecrow @ 58
The real mystery is how many soldiers have died? I have read it’s closer to 12,000 than 3,000. I have read that a lot of the dead are the foreignors we sign up in exchange for a promised green card. Their parents are less sophisticated and may not know if their kids are listed among the “official” dead.
rumi @ 189
Yes, I am certainly not ready to get behind anyone right now. I am not pleased with his posturing but, hey, what do we know, right? I’m sure he has some consultants much smarter than us lowly bloggers. We’ve only been right about everything thus far.
;)
If anyone is feeling bulimic, Katie O’Beirne, Michelle Malkin and Laura Ingraham are on CSPAN discussing the state of American Conservatism.
Kevin Hayden — there’s a diary that dropped off the rec list in the last hour at DKos about Molly Ivins; no more flowers, she’s been swamped with them. But there are other suggestions, including donations in her name to ACLU.
Fini FiniToobz — you out there? any suggestions you can offer Kevin about his brother’s video for uploading?
Spazeboy — so very glad for your mom; isn’t FDL the coolest?
mandrake — ugh, thanks, the mere thought of those three on the same program is definitely like sticking a finger down my throat. *heave*
I’ll point out that Edwards does have a cool campaign manager in David Bonior; I wonder if Bonior simply needs to be schooled on finessing this issue for Edwards.
mandrake @ 192
Funny thing is, this was the first candidate I had been positively for in the past bunch of years. I usually don’t support any but I think maybe my despair got the best of me. I’ll learn.
rumi @ 196
Don’t chide yourself. We’ll see how things shake out. It’s too early to tell, really. Perhaps he will get some “constructive” feedback and tone down the rhetoric. I really had a problem with him in ‘04 because he supported the war, but was able to give him a pass when he later said he’d made a mistake, and that was before everybody else was piling on.
Thing is, I am sick of Dems who think they have to do all this tough talk to make people think they will protect them against terrorism.
Past events have proven we need a more reasonable, enlightened approach. I am waiting for that enlightened voice.
It’s difficult because I do like Edwards’ populist tone. Must we give up one for the other? Do we really deserve to be so taken for granted?
BTW, Laura Ingraham said everybody was looking for another “Gipper” and the audience applauded. No wonder these people lost. They are so out of touch and stuck in the past, they’re still hanging onto Reagan?? Of course, considering how they can’t stop obsessing about Bill Clinton, 7 years down the road, it sorta makes sense.
My guy friend thinks Laura is “smart and attractive.” I say, ugly is as ugly does and intelligence does not equal integrity. Apparently, men just don’t give a shit about that sorta thing (present company excluded of course.)
;)
mandrake @
197
That was a nice way of phrasing the mix of disappointment but potential hope that I should keep in mind. Thanks for the perspective.
Boy, these women (conservatives) really think they’ve got it all figured out. I guess they’re no different from men in that way! I am getting so petty. I soooo want to see the careers of these people crash and burn. That would be so gratifying.
mandrake @ 198
I think Laura and her buddies seek that shallow personality that accepts authority rather than questions it. The Gipper seemed like he was an actor in his role as pres and the same guys were in the shadows for him. He said the lines that were written for him and the media learned to play along.
We likes our women with the compassionate intelligence that is beautiful instead of the physical attractiveness that gets uglified with animosity and bigotry. Ask your friend if she (Laura) has nice legs.
:-) …ruh-roh
rumi @ 199
Sure – Thing is, I’m beginning to feel that any is possible at this point. So I’m trying to wait it out. I’m just anti-Hillary, that’s my biggest thing right now. It sticks in my craw to say she would be a humongous improvement to what we have, but an impaired turtle would be a measurable improvement. Ugh. Anyway, I don’t feel we will have to grapple with that possibility, I really don’t.
mandrake @ 200
hey…was Arianna Huffington a loyal conservative at one time? She’s one of my favorites now but I thought I heard she hasn’t always been liberal politically.
Katrina vanden Heuvel is another favorite.
rumi @ 201
Ergghh. Dont get me started! [|:^p I didn’t mean for that to look like a penguin but it sorta does. Uh oh, I think the conservative women commentators are tripping me out.
rumi @ 203
Yes, Arianna was a Republican. She was married to a guy who ran against Dianne Fienstein and lost in 1994.
Well, it’s so comforting to see ABC is running true to form.
mandrake @ 204
I hate to be the one to break the bad news but something around half the population like the way those women think,…..uh,mebbe more around 35%? Maybe it identifies people the same way that inkblots can be seen as either a butterfly or liquidated “suspected” terrorist, or, possibly innocent as we call them.
They seem to share an overpowering, consuming fear for their survival. That is something I also noticed with many Evangelicals – irrational fear. hey… at least my fears are a product of reflective thinking….wait,..that’s the tinfoil.
*penguin*
I accidently watched a 1998 movie (The Siege) this morning and she had a cameo doing an anti-muslim rant.-(Arianna)
Ga @
87
Thanks, I was just reading those passages last night and they struck me this morning. I much prefer D. C. Lau’s version, myself, but I find Mitchell’s the most easily accessible. In other words it’s the one I give friends who have absolutely no experience of Taoism.
I don’t know, I must be in a mood to torture myself, listening to Laura Ingraham, Michelle Malkin and Katie O’Beirne for over four minutes, but I just went to Ann Coulter’s website and saw this thing!
Anybody ever seen this?
rumi @ 207
Oh, those are swarming around here in SC. That’s pretty much all there is. Slim pickins’ for us gals.
Ew, about Arianna. That’s weird.
Oh, that column I just read on Coulter’s website about Hillary running for President, titled “I Am Woman, Here Me Bore.” The irony is lost on poor scrawny little Ann’s nutrition-starved, liquored-up brain.
mandrake @ 206
Maybe ABC is doing this just to piss-off Spocko. Nice catch, by the way.
:-)
mandrake @ 211
Maybe Ann has the equivalent of penis envy with HRC…or actually the real thing for all I know. I seek out opposing opinion and news but she’s too far over the edge into pure hatred.
yeah,…you’re pretty well surrounded in SC. Isn’t someone going to build a Fundamentalville down there?
I need to find the lines that Arianna said in that quick spot. I think I may have it wrong as anti-muslim. She sure had a lotta hair back then, ;) but still the same sweet accent.
I just had to share this snippet from a Guardian/UK article about Coulter written about 4 years ago.
rumi: I think they’re just being ABC: Assholes Buy Complicity.
correcting-me
I think Arianna was calling for martial law in NYC and not an anti-Muslim rant in “the Siege”. The lines I found may or may not be accurate.
mandrake @ 214
This was/is dead on accurate and it’s also the problem with inaccuracies in the press/media. Our country’s theatrics since 9/11 is a subject that gets me fired up. When our elected officials keep fueling the misinformation and hysteria, it compounds the problem. In 2004, the platform seemed to be who could outkill the other candidates.
I nominate the FDL staff as members of a future Trurh Commission.
rumi: I read the letter to ABC from Spocko’s attorney. Got me thinking – I bet the lawyers for companies like ABC are suiting up to work on clamping down on internet free speech with the “copyright infringement” crap. There will be more lawsuits. They have the best lawyers. I do hope the Dems will do right by us in not allowing them to get away with changing the laws regarding the toobz in their favor.
rumi @ 217
What is so funny is how wrong that perception turned out to be and how irrelevant Ann Coulter is now . . . I just had to laugh.
Nice chatting with ya’ rumi. Looks like we’re the only ones left here! I gotta check out for a bit.
mandrake @ 218
I hope we can find the candidates to value free speech over corporate control, but I don’t know.
Have you seen these?
20th Century Fox Clamps Down On You Tube
Fox Hunts For YouTube Uploaders
:-) I have a habit of wandering away to read and missing a timely comment. see ya later
Rayne @ 194: Thanks!
He went to Starbucks afterward; no one there. We’ll try to get his stuff online as soon as he reaches a computer.
Mandrake @197: Past events have proven we need a more reasonable, enlightened approach. I am waiting for that enlightened voice.
Why not go to Edwards’ blog and give him feedback directly? His wife, especially, is an active netizen and I do get the distinct impression that they listen and will take criticism into account.
Given what we have learned about WH Media strategy from Cathy Martin in the Libby trial, perhaps it behooves us to consider that anything that is released on a Friday (preferably afternoon) or Weekend as information of GREAT IMPORTANCE that the Administration wants to get buried.
The Pentagon held off revealing the details of this until late Friday.
mandrake @ 205
Yeah, after a divorce and the revelations that he was covertly gay/bisexual. As I recall Mr. Huffington tried to portray himself as a “compassionate Conservative” with a little bit of Main Street and a bit of Bible-Thump when he needed to pander.
I have to admit I don’t follow Arianna’s stuff enough to understand her transformation and why she still opts to go by “Huffington”.