
(A still from the film Rashomon.)
Probably among others, the New Republic, Talking Points Memo, and Kevin Drum have all picked up on this snippet of reportage by Seth Stevenson of Slate, observing the antics at the Scooter Libby trial on Thursday:
The defense team wants to note—for the jury's benefit—that [Ari] Fleischer demanded immunity before he would agree to testify, because this might cast Fleischer's testimony in a different light.
And here Fitzgerald makes a nice little chess move: Fine, he says, we can acknowledge that Fleischer sought immunity. As long as we explain why. Turns out Fleischer saw a story in the Washington Post suggesting that anyone who revealed Valerie Plame's identity might be subject to the death penalty. And he freaked.
Very amusing stuff. Except for one thing -- I don't think it's true. Here's the Washington Post story the attorneys were fussing over... and it doesn't say anything about the death penalty:
The Intelligence Protection Act, passed in 1982, imposes maximum penalties of 10 years in prison and $50,000 in fines for unauthorized disclosure by government employees with access to classified information.
So what happened? Looking over emptywheel's live-blogging paraphrase of the courtroom discussion, it seems like Seth might have misread a prosecutor's remark about Fleischer's reaction ("your heart goes in your throat") to mean something it didn't. Or maybe Stevenson's recounting is accurate, and Team Fitz misspoke about the penalty. Or maybe Ari got confused by something he read somewhere other than that WaPo story. Who knows?
Similarly, Friday's New York Times account of the trial by Scott Shane focuses, presumably for some kind of dramatic/metaphorical purpose, on a broken clock on the courtroom wall -- overlooking the fact (brought to us by FDL's Aztec Inca-on-the-scene, Pachacutec) that there's another perfectly functioning clock on the other side of the room.
These are the kinds of things you learn when you have multiple observers to what's going on, including some who aren't bound by the "standards" or conventions of modern journalism. One lesson is that you should examine carefully any purported scoops like this latest one by Newsweek's Michael Isikoff:
White House anxiety is mounting over the prospect that top officials—including deputy chief of staff Karl Rove and counselor Dan Bartlett-may be forced to provide potentially awkward testimony in the perjury and obstruction trial of Lewis (Scooter) Libby.
Both Rove and Bartlett have already received trial subpoenas from Libby’s defense lawyers, according to lawyers close to the case who asked not to be identified talking about sensitive matters. While that is no guarantee they will be called, the odds increased this week . . .
The possibility that Rove could be called to testify would bring his own role into sharper focus—and could prove important to Libby’s lawyers for several reasons. Rove has said in secret testimony that, during a chat on July 11, 2003, Libby told him he learned about Plame’s employment at the CIA from NBC Washington bureau chief Tim Russert, a legal source who asked not to be identified talking about grand jury matters told NEWSWEEK. If Rove repeats that story on the witness stand, it could back up Libby’s core assertion that he honestly, if mistakenly, thought he had heard about Wilson’s wife from the “Meet the Press” host—even though Russert denies he knew anything about Plame, and more than a half-dozen officials (including Cheney) have said they passed along the same information to Libby earlier than that.
As the article admits, it's not as if Rove and Bartlett were notified yesterday that they might be called as witnesses. What did happen Thursday is that special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald drew a damaging admission from former co-worker Cathie Martin that Libby never said anything about Tim Russert or other reporters gossiping to him about Plame.
So, my guess is that Libby's legal team immediately went out on damage-control duty to Isikoff and others afterward, reminding them that Rove theoretically could back up Libby's alibi. Sourcing it anonymously makes it seem like Isikoff did some hard digging, when all he's doing is regurgitating spin.
The moral: Don't always take what you read at face value. Always ask yourself why you're hearing a particular piece of information at this particular moment, and remember that even an eyewitness may not have seen everything he or she thinks they saw.
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Fitz!
So… is this a ‘wake me when it’s over recommendation’?
Kurosawa!!
TEAM FDL!!!
TEAM FITZ !!!!
now to go read the post. . . . .
You are too smart, Swopa. You are all much too good at this. My head spins!
I need something clarified. The original investigation was to find out who revealed the identity of a CIA agent. Fitzgerald couldn’t discover that since Libby etc were lying. So he charged Libby with perjury etc since that was what he could prove.
My question is: after all the testimony we’re about to hear, can Fitz then charge someone (everyone) with the outing?
It has to be ‘hard work’, or they’d be doing better at reporting it. (Note that I don’t mean it’s difficult; the people you’re writing about are to reporting as Shrub is to presidenting.)
I got the word this afternoon from Amazon that my copy of Emptywheel’s book is shipping (they say ‘has shipped’), and should arrive in the next week!
solai @ 6
Yes, I think so.
Aztec?! Pft.
Inca.
;-]
Pachacutec @ 9
Swopa: “Maya bad”
Pachacutec @ 9
Ooops. Stand by for correction…
I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t entirely get this, but I could have sworn that sometime this morning MSNBC did a BREAKING NEWS banner (where was Stewie?) confirming that Rove had received his subpoena. They didn’t mention Bartlett in this one. I assume by your post that just because someone gets a subpoena they don’t necessarily have to testify.
However, I’d find it a stretch to believe that Rove wouldn’t have to testify at this trial, given his 5 GJ appearances. But like I said, I’m not a lawyer. I’m just fascinated.
punaise @ 10
ROFLMSESBHO!*
(*Rolling on floor, laughing my sacrificially extracted, still-beating heart out)
Swopa, you are one of the smart guys here with a keen instinct for deciphering spin. I like the way you think.
On Webb - Nice speech, but then he turned right round and voted with the republicans first chance he got.
Hagel(R-Diebold) - He’s a republican. Nuff said.
To me, the broken clock signifies that the Bush Administration and late Repug Congress has so underfunded all sectors of government not associated with privatizing the treasury.
The story is in the NYT beleiving this is a metaphor. No, it is an omen. Unless we reverse course (dare I say repent), this country will be bankrupt (stated otherwise, it will be in literal hell.)
remember that even an eyewitness may not have seen everything he or she thinks they saw.
Ain’t that the truth! Having been minister in a church where there was a traumatic shooting, it was amazing how eye-witness reports were very different depending on the back story of each of the witnesses. They all saw the same thing, but brought their own life experience to it which colored what they saw dramatically. It was a very important lesson for me to learn.
Remember the story of Five Blind Men and the Elephant. What you see depends on where you stand and how you feel.
FDL War Cry: Death to Spin! Death to Spin! Attack! Attack! ATTACK!!!
I’ve been wondering why Rove has had zero public profile since the election.
Initially I thought it was because THE MATH turned out to be so dreadfully (for him) wrong.
But why wouldn’t he have surfaced by now?
Could it be related to this matter of the subpoena?
hackworth @ 14
I thought it was Hagel (R-ES&S).
At least, I thought that was the name of Hagel’s voting machine company, the one that — oddly enough — gave him his oh so surprising WIN when the polls were predicting otherwise.
But your point is spot on.
Hagel voted for an amendment which would have done away with ANY “minimum” wage.
Note to Laura:
Stock up on pretzels for the bunker.
Swopa @ 11
Swopa @ 11
Swopa’s Aztec comment did not stand up for Peru-sal.
Swopa, I assumed that the leak had to come from Libby’s attorney regarding Rove and was wondering what their purpose was in doing so. We know Fitz’s side is always tight-lipped.
BTW, can you answer this question for me? I posed it over at TNH, but nobody has answered it and perhaps that’s because it’s just a dumb question. Anyway, I read this just today:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Poli.....id=2826728
We suspected this, but was this known as a fact beforehand? I mean, in any of the testimony and court documents that have become public was there anywhere written that Ari specifically said Libby told him and he then leaked it to reporters? I’m having trouble remembering what is conjecture and what is known testimony.
If this is new information, isn’t it sort of a bombshell?
Mrs. K8 @ 18
There is a foto of Rove from last week wherein he is outdoors, has his hand over his eyes to block the sun and the caption states that he is seeing off Commander Codpiece to Chuck E. Cheese*.
*paraphrased.
neurophius @ 21
Yucatangle with him on that if you must.
I couldn’t find anything in the Washington Post in the roughly three year window between July 2003 and the end of last year that mentioned the death penalty in the context of outing Plame.
Bet I’ll find the same results if I search for Wilson instead.
I didn’t trust the corporate-owned media before Cathie Martin’s testimony, but she’s done me the favor of validating my concerns. As if the payola-propaganda that has been spawned and fed by the likes of the Heritage Foundation wasn’t reason enough to distrust the corporate-owned media.
What is rather interesting about that Isikoff article, though, is confirmation that Rove has been subpoenaed; Libby’s team knew about it and ensured a Friday news dump about it. Begs all kinds of questions, to my mind. Why’d they need to do a Friday dump? Is something coming that they needed to innoculate against? Or did something already come out that we didn’t see as significant, not having access to all the testimony and evidence gathered by the GJ, but that Fitz can now “make”? For whose benefit was this dump — Libby’s, Team OVP, Rove, Team Bush?
And about the Fleischer thing…was that an innoculation, too? “Poor Little Coerced Ari” — what a crappy piece of spin, as if he was ever coerced by anybody during his tenure. Why are they trying to pawn this angle on us, that Poor Little Ari was Frightened by The Death Penalty?
Or are they not really sweating IIPA as a crime…?
Is the death penalty in play for treason?
Delicious, thinking of the possibility that a few of these bastards might actually be that worried. Scary, to think they might actually have committed treason.
Thanks, hackworth!
Is that the first sighting?
Well, it looks like he’s still alive then. Not yet swimming with the fishies.
Hey Swopa–
Maybe Ari thought he would be prosecuted for treason? I admit, it’s a bit of a stretch (and the article in no way supports this), but who knows.
Mrs. K8 @ 25
First I’d seen lately. Turdblossom is indeed keeping a lower profile than is typical.
I was blindsided by the terrific value that some of Cathie Martin’s testimony appears to have brought; Scooter kept her (and her staff) isolated from what he was
leakingdoing.Since Cathie had already disclosed to Scooter and DeadEye that she knew this was classified info, Scooter never forgot not to tell her that he was leaking classified information to reporters.
If I’m understanding this correctly, that’s some damn fine work by Fitz. Kinda blows a big frigging hole in Scooter’s “memory” defense.
Mrs. K8 @ 19
Yes, with emphasis on his. It’s not like he just represents their district or takes campaign money from them. He was the chairman of ES&S at the time.
http://www.motherjones.com/com.....3_200.html
Thanks Swopa - I knew the Isikoff scoop was spin and BS, but I didn’t know why
SharonW @ 22
not a bombshell, just confirmation of some studied guess work- see The Next Hurrah
for wagers on dinner between Swopa and Marcy
First off….correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this the first time that we’re hearing that Rove confirms Libby’s “I heard it from Russert” story?
**********
My question is: after all the testimony we’re about to hear, can Fitz then charge someone (everyone) with the outing?
yes….especially given the fact that it was established on Thursday that Martin told Libby and Cheney that Valerie worked for the CIA the day before (according to Libby’s notes) Cheney tells Libby that Valerie works for CPD. (and when you add the fact that Martin’s notes identify valerie as a “cia agent”…..)
To me, it looks like Fitz is building up to charging Cheney with heading a conspiracy to violate IIPA. He can’t charge Cheney with that as long as Libby holds to his “I forgot what Cheney– and everyone else– told me” story. Once Fitz gets a conviction on Libby, he can go after Cheney (especially if he turns Libby)…
solai @ 6
Yep, if the testimony provides probable cause to suppporrt an indictment
OT - does anybody have a current link to Webb’s SOTU rebuttal? Thx.
Thanks, Cujo!
That was how I remembered it — but I thank you for making sure to emphasize HIS when talking about Hagel’s ES&S.
Knowing that one fact makes certain I look at any claim about Hagel’s “integrity” with a jaundiced eye.
looseheadprop @ 32
what if the elapsed time (delay) has pushed things past the statute of limitiations?
I knew Isikoff didn’t have a scoop when Olbermann reported it as Breaking News last night! — thanks to the FDL boots-in-the-courthouse and swopa’s Ari analysis. I have to wonder if MSNBC flying the “Breaking News” flag late on Friday wasn’t to distract from the real news out of Prettyman: that Russert & MTP get “used” by the Administration because they can control the message.
p.lukasiak @ 32
I love the way you think! The hopes and dreams of a weary country would be realized if this were to happen. I know mine would.
Thanks for that.
Yucatangle with him on that if you must.
Do that with a Chicken? Its so unlikely!
NewsClues @ 12
If you are subpeoned, yes, you do have to testify. Unless the party issuing the subpeona changes their mind and excuses you.
Whether you are subpeopnad to testify at trial ahs nothing to do with whether or not you testified in the GJ or how many times
Excellent post! We are never really seeing the whole picture in real time. Several years ago, Long Term Capital, the money management firm imploded. There were people close to me involved in that fiasco. It was a dire situation, Greenspan was on the premises as well as the heads of most of the major brokerage firms. As it happened, during the meetings to sort out an orderly market, several interesting, and independent news announcements relative to economics were broadcast that day. To those unaware of the calamity of the Long Term debacle, there was no reason to suppose that all of the announcements were linked to this one failed company. All the firms ponied up to save the larger market, but what happened that day wasn’t thoroughly understood until much later.
lhp and others will have a better answer, but I
don’t think the statute starts running until the government knows of the crime. I think that is one aspect of what is behind Fitz’s umpire metaphor.
OT, I think Judges have latitude to waive the statute of limitations, if the evidence warrants it.
Christy is the expert, but I believe that while you do have to respond to the supoena (i.e. show up) you don’t have to testify (you can take the fifth)
Ianal, and this question may be rather naive…but since it reports they were subpoenaed…does that mean they aren’t willingly testifying on behalf of the Libby? Does this mean they are not doing this on their own volition? Or is this just a standard operating legal procedure? Because if they aren’t willing to do this on their own for Libby, could their testimony potentially hurt Libby, and could they potentially be hostile witnesses for him? Is this a risky strategy for Libby? Or have I watched too many movies and television shows about how our legal system works in my youth?
Mrs. K8 @ 35
You’re welcome. I haven’t looked into that election, but I suspect that the machines had no paper output. Without it, no matter how goofy the results of an election might seem, there’s no reliable way to go back and check the results. Even having access to the source code wouldn’t be helpful at that point, because there’s no guarantee that was the source used to build the software in the machines at that time.
Dana Milbank saw the same humor we did in Martin’s revelation that MTP’s Russert is a tool:
Ianal, and this question may be rather naive…but since it reports they were subpoenaed…does that mean they aren’t willingly testifying on behalf of the Libby? Does this mean they are not doing this on their own volition? Or is this just a standard operating legal procedure? Because if they aren’t willing to do this on their own for Libby, could their testimony potentially hurt Libby, and could they potentially be hostile witnesses for him? Is this a risky strategy for Libby? Or have I watched too many movies and television shows about how our legal system works in my youth?
a supoena compels you to show up — not to testify, and does not indicate whether you are willing to testify or not.
one big reason the defense will issue a supoena is to get information the prosecution might have about the potential witness. (LHP or Christy can explain this better, its Jencks or Giglio or some other form of discovery rights….)
Will evidence be presented to the Jury regarding the timeline of the initial FBI investigation and the subsequent naming of our favorite special prosecutor? It seems to me a critical aspect of Scooter’s testimony is that his initial FBI interviews were conducted while Ashcroft was heading up the investigation. Scooter fabricated a story thinking that Ashcroft would protect the administration. When Comey appointed Fitz and the questioning started anew, Scooter had a choice of sticking to his testimony or admiting he lied. I don’t see how Fitz can make that point to the jury, but it seems to me that it would be an important element for the jury to consider regarding Scooter’s state of mind.
John Casper @ 42
thanks
njr @ 32
Well, that’s what I’m saying. Perhaps you misunderstood me. Is not confirmation new? Wouldn’t this be completely new to the non-blogging public? And if so, once again, who is slipping this out to the reporters that Ari will testify this way specifically?
p.lukasiak @ 43
I’m just de-lurking to say that I saw your comments on Outside the Beltway and was amazed on how quickly you changed the tone of the conversation. You’re good
Cujo –
My admittedly fallible memory says there was no paper back-up — that’s how I remember an article describing it, anyway. And I guess I’m not motivated enough to go digging for it.
What I also remember — and it breaks my heart still — was the fellow who had a practical, neat-o, verifiable voting machine system (called TruVote IIRC). Just before he was supposed to present it to the authorities for review, he somehow — coincidentally enough (!!!) — was killed in a car accident. IIRC, he was run off the road by a driver who was never found.
viget @
27
For all we know, he may have thought that. The treason statute 18 U.S.C. sect. 974, has a LOWER standard of proof than does the
and the punishments for conviction under this statute include the death penalty.
If he wasn’t thinking of the death penalty that evening, I’m sure someone explained it to him shortly thereafter. I know his attorney must have. No matter how unlikely it for a white Republican to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, the fact is any attorney representing someone who deliberately disclosed strategically critical top secret information will tell that person the crimes for which they may be prosecuted and the penalties that are on the books.
The damage is significant enough to trigger the death penelty. Violation under the statute:
Based on the damage assesment, which will likely never be released (and we already know the overall damage to the U.S. was & continues to be enormous) by the White House’s coordinated espionage to further their Iraq intelligence analysis fraud conspiracy — serious penelties may have been dangled in front of some of these guys.
There was more than one reason to “throw dirt in the umpire’s eyes” by these criminals.
cl
Reading about the Libby trial here has me feeling like I’m hearing it from a couple of friends with press passes, very knowledgeable friends.
I can’t say this strongly enough: I consider us all to be so fortunate to be part of this.
The only way it could get any better is when Jane is well enough to be part of the team.
Boudica @
42
fascinating!! Other brokerage firms donated money to keep the market from diving?
SharonW, thanks for the Milbank link. The comments that WaPo readers have added are funny:
You can find more at the bottom of Dana’s article, just click on “View Comments.”
Who was Libby’s original lawyers during
the investigation stage?
Libby must be thinking, shit Ari’s lawyers
got him immunity, Rove’s lawyer (so far) has
kept him from indictment…..
Geez, whatabout my guy?
Can Libby file a malpractice suit against his?
Jack
SharonW @ 22
It was in th eprosecution’s opening statement and in thier timeline
FWIW, she posted a couple of times yesterday. She will also be at the FDL
BookRock Star Salon tomorrow with Rickie Lee Jones.Spurious@35: Webb’s SOTU rebuttal (via C&L) and various analyses of it can be found here.
Mrs. K8 @ 53
Is he listed in our compendium of suicides and other strange phenomena?
Rayne @ 25
Treason can carry the death penalty.
John Casper @ 43
I can not speak to statute of limitations. It may depend upon the charge. Is it perjury or obstruction as with Libby? Or perhaps something more serious Espionage Act, or IIPA? I hope neither crimes are tethered to expiring statute of limitations.
Either of those charges, if fought by the indictee, are sure to touch upon the scope of damage done, even if CIA won’t discuss it now (or am I too optimistic?). For example, if Cheney knew Plame’s NOC status and he knowingly leaked anyway? Too extreme a consideration, perhaps, but well within the realm of possibility (if Cheney is as evil as perceived). In which case, he desperately needs a fall guy.
Bay State Librul @ 58
emptywheel did some good posts about this, but I can’t remember his name. She specifically hammered on this guy, because he represented Scooter when he wrote the
witness tamperingAspens letter to Judy.Just my speculation, but Scooter seemed pretty intent on pushing the envelope, might not be all his attorney’s fault. Scooter probably thought DeadEye would protect him.
p lukasiak @ 48
Thanks for responding to my questions. I feared my imagination was getting a bit ahead of me here with the fact that Rove (and Bartlett) might be forced to testify. And I know the whole thing is far more complex (it’s certainly a chess game they are playing) both in the courtroom and in the court of public opinion/media (we are on to you barbara comstack).
Looseheadprop: Treason can carry the death penalty.
So can reason, in the land of the one-i.q.-point king.
Kevin Hayden @ 68
Bravo.
Thanks so much. Between all of the blog reports I’ve read on this investigation and ongoing revelations at trial, I have a hard time remembering dates of occurrence when hard facts are revealed as opposed to reams of conjecture. Not that the conjecture has been bad. On the contrary, it’s been so good that one confuses it with fact. *g* Thus my memory problems.
That’s, of course, why EW and Swopa are such marvels being able to keep the timeline fresh in their minds.
John Casper @ 65
Thanks John.
John Casper @ 43
Judges do NOT have latitiuse to waive the statute of limitiations. Otherwise I agree with you ananlysis
JPL @ 51
Did some searching, and found the thread you reference: link
Paul did good.
Here may be the source of the treason scare - from a previous comment;
Re: death penalty.
The Espionage Act of 1917, which may have also been violated, provides the death penalty for leaking certain classified information in time of war.
New thread above.
I notice that a lot of these media machines have different stories for the online folks and the paper edition folks. What a protection racket…
my too sense @ 44
Some lawyers routinely issue subpeonaz to all the witnesses they inend to call, just to be belt and suspenders and be sure they will all show up. A “willing” witness who thought he was going to tesify on Tuesday and took the day off from work to do so , but waited around the courthouse all day bored and frustrated may not be willing to come back on Wed.
If he is under subpeona he has no choice.
Gov’t employees do not lose a day’s pay if the testify under subpeona (snarky in this case)
I have no clue why they would call Rove since Well’s opening tried to throw Rove under the bus, so unless they know that if he lies, Fitz will ail him and Libby wants company in prison???
SH*T. I changed the search terms from “death penalty” “Plame” (July 2003-30-DEC-2006), swapping “Plame” for “treason.
Look what I found.
Is Ari worried about Patriot Act provisions?
edit: Note carefully that the article discusses pending legislation; anybody here an expert on Patriot Act as it is currently constituted? And when did Ari get his immunity - what did the Patriot Act look like at that time?
spurious @ 35
Here’s a link - SOTU response
John Casper @ 62
Prospect.org:
“Libby has never offered to provide such a personalized waiver for Miller, according to three legal sources with first-hand knowledge of the matter. Joseph A. Tate, an attorney for Libby, declined to comment for this story.”
John Casper @ 57
Thanks, there were a lot of humorous and just plain disgusted comments.
It’s nice if not very late to see the media finally reporting on itself. There’s this from the Editor & Publisher, too:
Of course, we’ve been jumping up and down about this issue for so long our voices are hoarse.
lhp, I’m sure you’re correct in some way I just don’t understand.
I was trying to factor in the reports I have read about wrt sex abuse cases against the Roman Catholic Church. IIRC, Judges usually rule that the statute on sex with a minor expired prior to the claim being filed. I guess I thought they wouldn’t have had to rule, if there was no latitude.
Thanks Rev Deb, that was the name, Tate.
More fraud and abuse in a new thread upstairs.
John Casper @ 81
I have some familiarity with the priest pedophile litigations. The various plaintiff’s have used theories relating to the various mechanisms for “tolling” the Statute of Limitations. it’s on those tolling theories that the judges are asked to rule
ROFLMSESBHO!*
(*Rolling on floor, laughing my sacrificially extracted, still-beating heart out)
well that explains why acronymfinder.com was of no use on this one. aorta been able to guess…. :~)
I’m guessing Ari freaked because he was assured he’d be protected, and knew what massive incompetence of those he’d been spinning for would mean in protecting him.
His immunity wouldn’t extend to the civil actions to follow, would it?
Here is another article on MSNBC saying that Rove might NOT testify and what the defense is after is a limit on Fleishers testimony.
link
thanks lhp.
Kathryn in MA @ 56
Yes, they certainly did. You see, they were all heavily invested with Long Term, greedy little things. Apparently Long Term over invested in, I think it was derivative products. In any event when they sustained losses, they did what our dear administration is doing. They doubled down to try to recoup. It didn’t happen. So anyway, Greenspan called the boys together and, in order to save themselves they plugged the financial holes and sold off in