(Blue America is pleased to welcome Dr. Steve Porter to chat with everyone today. As always with Blue America chats, please keep the discussion on topic — shoud you wish to discuss other matters, please do so in the prior thread. Also, please be polite and respectful of our guest. Welcome, Steve! — CHS)
It's with great pleasure that we welcome Dr Steve Porter back for a Blue America chat today. Steve was the Blue America-endorsed candidate, an outspoken anti-war progressive, in PA-03, the Erie area of northwest Pennsylvania. He didn't win his race against corrupt rubber stamp tool Phil English but he was able to bring English's percentage down from 60% in 2004 to 54% in November. Steve spent $81,102 and got 82,317 votes, roughly $1.01 per vote. English spent $1,335,820 for 104,820 votes (about $12.74 per vote). Think about that disparity. Pennsylvania picked up 4 new Democratic seats, and the winning Democrats each spent over a million dollars. In fact, the 4 winners– Chris Carney, Jason Altmire, Joe Sestak and Patrick Murphy– averaged over $2,000,000 each. Think about that disparity too. Steve is anything but discouraged. He hardly stopped to catch his breath before he was back on the campaign trail, looking to claim this working and middle class district's seat for 2008.
Steve has been building on the headway he made in the district and I've been following his activities at DownWithTyranny. Last week he sent an open letter to Speaker Pelosi, a letter that represents the views of many in our community more than the congressmen and women we helped elect do.
Dear Madame Speaker,
It has been said that you are not pursuing impeachment proceedings against Mr. Bush because they would eat into the nation's business and because by the time they were done, it would be close to the 2008 elections anyway. I am writing to express an alternate point of view.
I know that I write with an insufficiently strong voice to a House with an insufficient resolve to oppose a President with a grossly inefficient morality in a nation where public awareness is tragically insufficient because the integrity of the media has been largely insufficient. But my duty as a citizen compels me to try.
Impeachment proceedings should not hamper the other workings of Congress. They didn't in the cases of Nixon and Clinton. But more, they will at long last hold public officials accountable for their actions. Common citizens don't vote in large measures because they perceive our government to work only for the powerful. To the extent leaders are allowed to escape the legal repercussions of their actions, government only reinforces that opinion.
But I think the greatest reason for impeachment is to save the lives of the men and women of our armed forces as well as the lives of many innocent civilians in the Middle East. The President is tragically wrong and tragically pig-headed in his foreign policy with respect to the Middle East. Every day we keep him in office, we are complicit in the deaths and injuries which his policies have needlessly caused. For the sake of all those thousands, he and Cheney must be removed so that a new policy can be forged, one that will avoid the bloodshed which awaits us.
Thank you for at least considering this course.
Sincerely,
Dr. Steven Porter
Democratic candidate for Congress
PA-03
When I spoke with Steve on the phone a few days ago, he assured me he was running– and running to win. I asked him if he thought he might be challenged by a conservative Democrat or an Emanuel type shill. He was undaunted by the prospect. "If the DCCC runs a Democratic version of Phil English, I will oppose that because it's not what our country needs. We need a progressive who will fight for universal health care, the solvency of our Social Security system, the accountability of a president who has trashed the Constitution, alternative energy to stop global warming and to develop our economy, and a foreign policy that will save the world instead of destroying it."
Since the elections, a great many Republicans, chastened by the anger voters expressed at the polls, supported Nancy Pelosi's First 100 Hours Agenda. Phil English wasn't one of them. He stuck with the bankrupt and reactionary Republican leadership to oppose the ethics bill (H. Res 6), to oppose negotiated prices for prescription drug prices under Medicare Part D (HR 4), to oppose stem cell research (HR 3), and, needless to say, since he has gobbled up approximately half a million dollars in legalized bribes from Big Oil, to oppose HR 6, the bill to eliminate tax subsidies for these same companies and to develop clean, alternative, U.S.-produced energy. On top of that he voted to outsource more American jobs (HR 6111) and, true to form, he's already made an illegally financed trip to Japan and was forced to pay back the airfare (although he didn't pay back the money for the hotels and meals– and this guy can eat– he treated himself to while there). Yep, same old Phil English.
Steve's supporters have a website up called DumpPhilEnglish which goes into all the issues the district needs to look at. It also has a convenient spot where you can donate via ActBlue and right now a $25 donation gets you a "DumpPhil" t-shirt.
I'm eager to hear about Steve's 2008 strategy for winning in one of the few remaining Democratic-leaning districts in America with a reactionary Republican congressman and about Steve's ongoing law suit against English for libel, defamation and slander.
Related posts:
Spotlight
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search
Would you care to comment on the de-funding Iraq issue?
Fitz!
Welcome back to FDL, Steve. Thanks for taking time out on a Saturday afternoon to join us. And congratulations on not hesitating to continue the battle to rid your district– and our nation– of Phil English. Is there something you plan to do differently this time that will help you win in 2008?
Welcome. I rather like John Dean’s proposal to impeach Cheney and cabinet members who have participated in crimes. What are your thoughts in this idea?
Hey, Howie, and welcome to Dr. Porter. It’s a pleasure to have you join us.
Dr. Porter!
Howie!
Blue America – one CD at a time!
Dr. Porter,
Your letter to Speaker Pelosi is right-on. We are complicit in this mess. Have you received a response?
Please remember to keep your comments in this thread on topic. Other conversations should continue in the previous thread. Thanks.
That’s an excellent letter to Pelosi. Hope you get a response.
Hi Doctor — tnx for being here. I wonder what your future constituents :) think about the fact that Rick Santorum lost his Senate seat? Does that have any implications for your future run (like maybe the new Democratic Senator lending you a hand)?
(I’ve gotta go out so I’ll catch any discussion much later. Sorry for my future non-participation.
… and obtw, IMPEACH BUSH NOW!
Yay Dr Steve! I’m gonna chip in for the rematch.
Howie, Steve: the funding disparity is appalling. Where was DCCC?
Do you have any ideas on how to overcome the “super majority” question?
Dr. Porter, thank you for your efforts. I think you have an excellent chance of defeating Mr. English the next time around. Given the defeat of Melissa Hart in PA-04, I think Western PA is turning away from the Republicans. Ms. Hart was once considered a “rising star” in the GOP. Not anymore.
Dr. Porter, I was intrigued by your story last summer, and am heartened that you are continuing to help clean up American government.
Do you find that the narrative about global warming and alternative energies carries much traction in your region, or does it seem too abstract to your voters? Do you think many in your region still dismiss global warming as some sort of lefty fantasy, or do you think your voters view it as a credible, critical issue…?
Are you still addressing Chambers of Commerce and Rotary groups? If so, do any of the local insurance agents or bankers seem to view global warming as an emerging factor in their business decisions — a factor that will require cohesive, urgent government action?
Also, are you at all familiar with the Apollo Project, a legislative agenda focused on issues related to climate change and developing alternate energies?
(Howie, thanks again, and I have yet to catch up on your Kissell and several other Saturday threads… but I will ;-)
Scarecrow @ 12
The DCCC showed exactly zero interest in Steve’s race. Good news though. I had a long and really pleasant talk with Chris Van Hollen this week. He is the new Chairman of the DCCC and he will be far more cooperative with grassroots and progressive candidates than Emanuel was. In fact, he’s eager to come over to FDL for a live chat and he and his staff have been reading this blog. We’re trying to schedule a session with him for March. It’s going to be great working with the DCCC instead of defending progressives against them.
Hi Dr. Porter,
I’m sorry I can’t stick around now. But I supported you in 2006, and I’m going to do so again in 2008. Best of luck to you!
P.S. I can’t wait for my Dump Phil t-shirt.
Still the funding disparity is appalling and that’s a problem that we’re going to have to figure out. I had dinner with our pal Robert Rodriguez last night and he’s having a hard time figuring out how he’ll be able to pay his rent and eat if he runs again in 2008.
Steve,
Congratulations on giving Phil English a real race. You’ll beat him this time. Things are evolving rapidly, as Howie has been documenting so thoroughly at his blog. The bigger battle might be keeping the Dem apparatchiks in line.
We need progressive medical practitioners in congress more than ever.
I’m off to drive 50 miles to protest this criminal war. IMPEACH BUSH AND CHENEY!
Ed*ard Teller @ 19
Drive safely and enjoy the protest! Smile for the cameras.
Dr Porter isn’t a medical doctor. He’s a musical doctor!
Dr. Porter – so glad to see you again. I was so impressed by you the last time you were at FDL that I contributed to your campaign. I hope you will decide to run again.
I am impressed by your letter to Speaker of the House, Pelosi. It is terribly frustrating to have impeachment off the table. If Bush/Cheney have not committed impeachable offenses – then what did our founding fathers have in mind?
I read an article recently that pointed out that not impeaching them for the crimes they have committed, including lying to the American people, war profiteering, their total disregard for the Constitution and the Congress, sets a really bad precedent for checks and balances in the future. At the very least Congress should think of its responsibility to future generations.
I want to add a very important point to go with the case for impeachment.
our nation has lost it’s credibility, we’ve lost our influence, we’ve lost the regard other countries have for our nation and the American people in general.
we’ve squandered the good will the entire world had toward us and turned it into the most vile hatred we could have imagined
there is mending that needs to take place, and that mending will begin when these people are held to account
it’s not only about what happens in this country, it’s mending the international damage.
Maybe Dr. Porter was here at 11:44AM EST. Hello? Hello, Watson? One thing I am sure about, Dr. Porter does not have a tin ear.
Steve, I hope your run again. However, please do not refer to the Iraq war as simply a war…It’s is Bush’s war, and your opponent supports Bush’s War!
OK dokey kiddo @ 13. That’s a good question: If we undertake the impeachment of Bush in order to remove him from power, is that a responsible course of action only if we are able to forsee a successful impeachment? Or does the process of determining and examing charges deliver a sufficiently beneficial result. I think the latter is true. I think we impeach for two main reasons, the rule of law must be respected to keep the integrity of our goverment and secondly, its our only mechanism to censure and thereby weaken an out-of-control president. IMHO
Its unthinkable to me that we may live in a world where Bush and Cheney go unpunished– and living in oppulence from the fruits of their misdeeds– long after they have left the government. That’s one of my biggest concerns about Hillary. I’m positive she would pardon Bush immediately.
Anybody have plumber Ted Stevens cell phone number? I think the pipes are blocked.
Howie Klein @ 17
Howie, I love the way you get stuff done ;-)))
—————–
This prompts me, however, to ask another question of Steve: do many of his voters seem to use the Internet very much?
As Howie is aware, I’m a left coaster from a region where many citizens are online ALL the time…. many via wireless and broadband connections ;-) My Congressman has one of the premier Congressional websites, and I checked it just yesterday. My Congressman is extremely aware of the economic importance of Net Neutrality (for businesses of all sizes, as well as Higher Ed and K-12).
In my CD, most Starbucks coffee shops have good wireless connections, and it’s quite common to enter a Starbucks and see people sitting using laptops on Starbucks’ wireless connections… but I have no idea whether this is also typical customer behavior in your region. It’s quite easy in my region to observe small groups of latte drinkers in what are actually casual business meetings, aided by laptops and wireless access. You’ll see realtors, insurance agents, and other smaller biz people meeting for coffee and using laptops in these very casual environments.
This has implications for the ECONOMIC benefits of Net Neutrality, particularly small businesses — by enabling people to do business online as conveniently and inexpensively as possible. Do your voters seem aware of Net Neutrality as an economic issue for their own work — or their educational opportunities?
(Wow – didn’t take me long to get from Global Warming to Net Neutrality, but I note that you did not mention that issue in your list of legislative priorities, which suggests it’s not viewed as economically significant in your CD. Where I live out West, Net Neutrality has enormous economic ramifications.)
Can’t see any possible scenario where Bush gets impeached- the votes aren’t there- and having him in office is a pretty good deal for the dems. He won the last election for em- and he’s almost got 08 won for em as well.
Why should dems want it any other way?
Howie Klein @
16
Howie, I am interested in your “gut” reaction to your conversation with Chris. Do you really think he’s willing to work with us? (sorry but I am a cynic – after all, he IS a politician – someone who will say whatever they think the other person wants to hear)
By not impeaching Bush, won’t a legal precedent be created when considering the actions of future Presidents? Future Presidents will be able to argue that whatever they did, it was not as bad as what Bush did and, therefore, not an impeachable offense.
Steve is online reading all the comments but he had a technical problem responding
Getting Chris Van Hollen for an FDL Q&A liveblog? AWESOME. Nice job Howie. I sense a resurgence of Maryland democrats in national politics. I think that a good thing for our country.
Howie Klein @ 16
My brother in law, who is very involved in New York state Dem politics, went to school with Van Hollen and considers him to be very smart and a really good guy (in contrast to our friend Rahm). So hopefully the DCCC will be run differently.
He’s answering questions now that we fixed the technical glitch and you’ll start seeing his answers within moments. Everybody thank Jacquie for locating him.
Howie Klein @ 32
Thank you, It’s very much appreciated.
thank you jacquie!
Jacquie is amazing!
Thanks!
and welcome Dr Porter – so glad to see you are still running, I’ll be on your side anytime you take them on!
I just got this from Steve, who is still having technical difficulties:
Hi. I have been having some technical problems. My server won’t connect to FDL. I will email answers to Howie who will post them.
So… as Steve e-mails me his answers I’ll post them. From now on when something is posted from Howie Klein it is actually from Steven Porter.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01…..ref=slogin
Money Quote:
I could not withhold funds from troops in the field and since Bush is sending them no matter what we do, the answer is to impeach Cheney and him in that order ASAP.
RAISE MORE MONEY STARTING NOW!!!
Thanks so much for being here again, Dr. Porter, and thanks for sending me your book. I really appreciate it.
I’m posting Steve’s answer’s in bold. He’s going through the questions from the top. As you can see, he just answered #1 and #3.
Jacqrat @ 31
Jacqrat (and Howie), FYI, I once worked at… ‘a large Internet-based online business’ and also have some insights about the huge investments that many Higher Ed and K-12 institutions have made in delivering content online. I attempted to discuss the emergence of online business and educational opportunities with my LOCAL county exec [a Democrat of the Old School], but in order to show him some sample sites, we had to leave his office, and go into someone else’s office, because he didn’t even have a computer in his office. (I suspect that he’s of the Old School, where men never learned to type b/c it was ‘too secretarial’, so the sight of a keyboard scares the sh*t out of him.)
Then my councilmember [a Democrat of the Old School] – who claims to want ‘biotech’ in his district, but doesn’t know a molecule from a proton – blew me off by telling me that ‘no one ever really uses the Internet.’ That was about 2002. I concluded that the only curiosity those jerks have about the blogosphere is to view us as a giant ATM. They are stupifyingly clueless about its potential to educate, nor to enable greater accountability. (No wonder it scares them — bwaahahahahaha!!)
Personally, I’m damned if I’m going to hand over my ATM pennies to the likes of the inept folks that I’ve had to deal with at the local level — lets hope that Van Hollen has more than a few ‘come to Jesus’ conversations with prospective candidates about their expectations of the blogosphere — we are **not** a giant ATM for more incompetents (!).
Dr. Porter (and Massa, and Braley) seem like good examples for Van Hollen to check out — engaged, thoughtful, courteous. This is what the Web can be. And should be.
#4- Absolutely. It is the only way to restore our trust in government and to stop this war.
Dr. Porter
Thank you for your principled stance on the Iraq issue. Concerning impeaching Bush…
I am concerned that if we get caught up in a trial that the golden opportunity to win the WH
could pass us by..I totally understand your position but isn’t the prize of new democratic leadership for the United States our goal?
What do you think? Also..If I could ask..and you may not want to answer..But who are you supporting for Prez?
#7- No. I don’t expect her to answer me.
#9- I don’t expect one. It would be nice.
#10- Santorum’s defeat will help. I could use Casey’s support.
#11- Many thanks
Any comment?
Clinton defends war vote, touts security By
MIKE GLOVER, Associated Press Writer
26 minutes ago
DES MOINES, Iowa – Pressed to defend her Iraq war vote, Hillary Rodham Clinton said Saturday there are no “do-overs in life” and Democrats need a presidential nominee who inspires confidence on national security.
Omig*d! Howie, thanks for correcting me.
Out of the shower, getting ready to hit the road to Anchorage, camera re-batteried, and I find out Dr. Steve Porter is THAT Steve Porter – the same guy who wrote _Shenker for Dummies_, or so it is often called. Also that great book on 4-part harmony. And all those great settings and editions of Elizabethan and Jacobean madrigal writers, plus his own stuff.
Steve, you do great work! Wish I could stay. To correct my earlier declamation which is also true – that we need more progressive medical practitioners in congress:
I’m ALL for having more composers in congress too.
#12- Good question. I think they were concentrating on the Altmire race in PA-04
(note from Howie: Altmire is a little on the conservative side, isn’t he?)
#13- Only to keep promoting the ideas of progressive democrats so that we can become a veto-proof Congress.
#14- From your mouth to God’s ears.
Howie, is there some way to clean up or reorganize the BlueAmerica ActBlue page so it’s clearer who is current and needing money?
Howie Klein @ 46
Following the strategy of impeaching those under Bush first, it’s important to be successful. Is there a caucus meeting and discussing strategy? in Congress? What’s the best way to get this off the ground?
#15- As will so many issues, until global warming causes PA-03 pain, the people are more or less concerned with other matters. There is a small group who are aware, but most are driven by the economy and their week-end pleasures.
Hi Dr. Porter,
First, thanks for campaigning. Even though you lost, it helped our national discourse, and good luck in 2008.
I also like your letter to Speaker Pelosi. I think you’re right that the public senses that there’s no real accountability in Washington, and her attitude about impeachment will just reinforce that attitude. Even their stance on what to do about Iraq strikes me as another example of their not wanting to serve the country that elected them.
HI Dr. Porter,
Thank you for fighting for your district and for not giving up.
Your Letter to Mrs Pelosi is wonderful. Is there any way that we can send it again or one just like it with lots of signatures? I would certainly be happy to add my name and I know that I am not the only one.
What is the demographic make up of your district and is it shifitng blue?
PS Howie is there some way you can put a summary of the question with Dr. Porters answer?
It seems that if Congress were to say that after such and such a date there will be no more funds to support the nightmare that is Iraq, then, the impression is that the president would have no choice but to ‘draw-down’ with accompanying total withdrawal. There is a precedent for this. It was called Vietnam? Perhaps I am being naive here.
#16-Nice.
Ed*ard Teller @ 53
Either would be an improvement. More engineers and scientists would be a nice change, also.
#17- Many thanks.
#18- I am economically self-sufficient, so that is not a problem for me. I got 83,000 votes last time. If everyone donates to the DumpPhil site ($25) I will win.
howie klein, instead of bold, why don’t you just add in the field with your name “reporting for Dr. Steve porter”?
#19- You are absolutely correct. And I am running.
Cujo359 @ 65
Cujo, suddenly I **adore** you!!!
Amen!
Especially given the issues that are emerging today.
But Dr. Porter (as a musician) probably has a lot of mathematical ability, which would sure be a bonus in Congress ;-)
perris @ 66
Because I’m technologically retarded and have no idea how to. I could probably figure it out and then I won’t be able to undo it and that’ll be my screen name forever.
#22- As the Brits say, you are “spot on”. We must regain the integrity of our government for all of the reasons we mention.
#25- Both reasons are important and each alone is sufficient to start the process.
That is why I would like to see a law that says if Congress enacts a war, physical things being equal, their kids have to be the first on the front lines–starting with the Bush girls who drink martinis on the East Side of Manhattan.
readerOfTeaLeaves @ 69
There need to be more professions represented there than lawyers and businesspeople who, frankly, are among the least interested in physical reality. I read somewhere that these two professions are generally rated by restaurant workers as the worst tippers. I think these two observations explain a great deal about why Congress seems to be uninterested in workers, science, or pretty much anything that doesn’t involve making their own lives better in the short term.
you’ve probably heard of the move on in the New Mexico State legislature to start an impeachment order in the U.S. House of Representatives. this is evidently one way to actually get the ball rolling.
the NYT has an editorial today about Bush and Cheney and the “bait and switch” game they are playing with the media. the Times didn’t actually call for impeachment but it really sounds like they wouldn’t need much else to start making that call.
our own RW Cole said that the votes aren’t there to get a conviction. i, on the other hand, think that we need to impeach the both of them. if the Republicans won’t supply the votes that are needed to convict, the nation will see it, and there will be hell to pay for them in ‘08.
with the country in the mood it has come to be in over the last year i believe that, as a matter of principle, Bush and Cheney must be impeached. if this does not happen, the nation is dishonored. it’s as simple as that. we must not let these people get away with destroying everything good this country has stood for.
Howie Klein @ 70
If you’re using Windows, a simple way would be to just open up a Notepad window, and type the text into it. You could then cut and paste from that window into the FDL comment form.
If you’re using a Mac, I suspect there’s something similar to Notepad.
Because every day he is in office, innocent people get killed. If one of them were your kid in Iraq, believe me, the impeachment would matter.
Thank you Howie and Dr. Porter.
The perspective here is that criminal investigations and possible, perhaps probable, prosecutions of Bush and company are acceptable substitutes.
#31-
Good point.
Howie Klein @ 77
No one ever asks Bush why his family won’t serve in his war.
Ref:#73.
So… would you support a no loop-hole re-institution of the draft? Some argue that would be a fair thing to do.
#38- Thank you.
For that matter, why doesn’t Hillary’s daughter serve?
Jane Hamsher @ 43
I hope you enjoyed the book, Jane. The reviews have been great. It is in its third printing in England.
Badwater @ 81
it has to be framed properly;
“why doesn’t anyone in your family support your war enough to serve America in the armed forces?”
Badwater @ 81
Nor will they even point out to him that his kids don’t have to serve, so they’re just as safe as a Vietnam era young man would be, say, in the Texas Air National Guard.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 84
She’s 28, working in a fancy consulting job and gearing up to campaign for her mother. I like your idea Oklahoma kiddo!!
#45. thank you for the kind words.
perris @ 86
No one will ask the question no matter how it is framed.
Hi Steve!
Thank you for fighting the good fight.
I am originally from nw pa but now reside in sw pa. My opinion is that there is a dividing line somewhere above pittsburgh but below route 80 where pa turns from blue to red. i think it’s a race and ethnicity related thing. nw pa is a homogeneous, isolated from city life, part of the state. with lake erie to the north, cleveland to the west and nothing but punxatawney phil to the east, there is little diversity to the area. my mother, who lives in a small nw pa town, is worried about mexicans massing on the hilltops.
in addition to being isolated, many people up there tune in to faux news.
Thank you again for cutting inroads into this part of pa.
Just want to send a hug out to Howie, who must be going nuts trying to transcribe Dr. Porter’s answers and then paste them here for our edification.
{{{{{{{{Howie}}}}}}}}}}}
If you are able and willing, please consider donating to Dr. Porter’s campaign, (and get a cool DUMP PHIL teeshirt!) here.
napaValleyguy @ 47
Our goal is not only the WH but the preservation of our democracy. Being in power will be little if the people of our nation continue to take second place to special interests, not matter who is in the WH. That is why principle is so very important. I have two choices for President I like. Al Gore and Joe Biden. I also like Richardson and to some extent Edwards. IT IS NOT THAT I DON’T LIKE THE OTHERS, but I feel the need for people of impeccable honesty, intelligence, experience, straight-forwardness, and the ability to unite and not divide our nation. I think both Gore and Biden have those qualities.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 52
I was not happy with Hillary for her Iraq vote and not happy that she has not recanted it. I do not find her rhetoric as straight-forward as Biden’s.
Ed*ard Teller @ 53
I am fascinated, Anchorage. How do you know about Shenker and chorale harmonization and my choral works?
Steve Porter @95:
We’re a diverse community– we even have one person who likes Joe Biden. He lives in NW PA.
Cujo359 @ 60
Thank you
Topanga-lib @ 61
PA-03 is 46% D, 44% R, and 10% I. It is red-necked and has a very biased-to-the-right press. The thing that wins is TV and negatives against your opponent.
Cujo359 @ 75
Engineering = practical application of science.
Science = investigating and understanding how and why things work the way they do.
I see too damn many cheerleaders in politics, and too darn few l-e-a-d-e-r-s.
Not all engineers make good electeds, but the mindset of engineering (problem definition, design specs, prototypes, testing, quality control) are sorely needed in American governance. Emphasis on the Quality Control.
Nice to see Dr. Porter being a harbinger of better, more responsible, more engaged, tougher government.
I hope our PAC should do more TV ads in 2008. The ones for Tony Trupiano were very effective and he came closer to winning than any other Democrats did in that district.
Thanks Howie!
Asside from Impeachment is there a legal way to send Bush/CHeney and friends to jail for all of their misdeeds or are their crimes only constitutional.
i should add that I am for tar and feathers and a large mob escort across the the 14th street bridge on a rail.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 62
I believe you are very wrong here. Bush is protecting the oil interests of the “big” four (Shell, BP, Exxon, Chevron) which have negotiated a 30-year rape of Iraqi oil fields. These deals are contained in “production-sharing agreements” which are part of the Iraqi constitution. Bush will send our kids to war in greater numbers and defy Congress if they withhold support. This is a different game than Vietnam. Please google up “Iraqi production sharing agreements”. Then sit down, take a deep breath, and read what you get. Then ask yourself why the media hasn’t reported this.
Topanga-lib @ 101
No one will go to jail thanks to Presidential pardon powers. However, Bush and Cheney could be removed from office and the Republican party may spend many years in the minority.
fahrender @ 75
Bravo!
Badwater @ 103
I bet Howard Dean would never pardon Bush or Cheney. Neither would Feingold nor even Gore. The others… we should ask. (This is Howie talking, not Steve.)
Oklahoma kiddo @ 79
Criminal prosecution is an adjunct to impeachment, but the latter removes these guys from office and stops the slaughter now.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 82
If not a draft then national service. But a draft would surely wake us up and cause us to justify wars with much greater rigor than the Bush lies about Iraq.
squirrel hiller @ 91
Spoken with great knowledge of the area.
From http://www.DavidCorn.com “These Guys Are Unreal–But Impeachment’s Not the Answer”
“Sanford Levinson, a scholar and law professor at University of Texas. In this week’s Nation magazine, he debates former Representative Elizabeth Holtzman, an impeachment champion, and presents strong points. Levinson writes:
Livenson argues is will never be successful so it should not be undertaken. Let’s handicap the chance of success at 50%. On that basis, what can be gained by pursuing impeachment?
Jacqrat @ 92
God bless you.
Howie Klein @ 103
To phrase my earlier point in another way: Bush and Cheney came out of the ‘biz’ end of the industry. Neither is an engineer.
An engineer would look at the problem of oil scarcity and say, “Okay, this resource is now too costly. What can we look at developing that will be AN ALTERNATIVE? Where are the future opportunities?”
Some engineers ARE saying that. But people who work for teevee and newspapers, and people who work in the WH, don’t have the background to understand what engineers and researchers are TRYING to say.
And it’s several hundred dollars’ worth of engineering and/or researcher time to e-x-p-l-a-i-n the technical basics to a novice.
The Bush/Cheney approach shows very little grasp of engineering. It’s off-the-books accounting.
readerOfTeaLeaves @ 99
What we need more than any occupation is to elect people of moral integrity, conscience, and the ability to think critically. Those qualities can occur in any profession.
No question here, just a case in favor, for your edification…
THE NATION
Impeachment: The Case in Favor
by ELIZABETH HOLTZMAN
February 12, 2007
Approximately a year ago, I wrote in this magazine that President George W. Bush had committed high crimes and misdemeanors and should be impeached and removed from office. His impeachable offenses include using lies and deceptions to drive the country into war in Iraq, deliberately and repeatedly violating the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) on wiretapping in the United States, and facilitating the mistreatment of US detainees in violation of the Geneva Conventions and the War Crimes Act of 1996.
Since then, the case against President Bush has, if anything, been strengthened by reports that he personally authorized CIA abuse of detainees. In addition, courts have rejected some of his extreme assertions of executive power. The Supreme Court ruled that the Geneva Conventions apply to the treatment of detainees, and a federal judge ruled that the President could not legally ignore FISA. Even Attorney General Alberto Gonzales’s recent announcement that the wiretapping program would from now on operate under FISA court supervision strongly suggests that Bush’s prior claims that it could not were untrue.
Despite scant attention from the mainstream media, since last year impeachment has won a wide audience. Amid a flurry of blogs, books and articles, a national grassroots movement has sprung up. In early December seventy-five pro-impeachment rallies were held around the country and pro-impeachment efforts are planned for Congressional districts across America. A Newsweek poll, conducted just before election day, showed 51 percent of Americans believed that impeachment of President Bush should be either a high or lower priority; 44 percent opposed it entirely. (Compare these results with the 63 percent of the public who in the fall of 1998 opposed President Clinton’s impeachment.) Most Americans understand the gravity of President Bush’s constitutional misconduct.
more HERE
There is a book which sets forth the case for impeachment and contains at least 10 instances of crimes of the most serious nature. And I wouldn’t rush to judgment about the 2/3 vote. If impeachment testimony were taken under oath and crimes of a serious nature were revealed, even staunch Bush allies in the Senate would dessert him in order to save their own political necks. Besides, it is the right and moral thing to do. That alone makes it worth the try.
readerOfTeaLeaves @ 99
Engineers, farmers, and medical professionals are the consumers of science. Everyone else consumes our work. I think that may be one reason the value of science is so little appreciated these days. Everyone else just asks “Why are they counting wolves and measuring cow farts? That won’t cure cancer”, or whatever their obsession of the moment is.
YT would be an example of someone who’s not cut out for elected office. Many engineers are a bit short on people skills. Nevertheless, there isn’t an engineer who’s worth a crap who doesn’t understand that there are limitations of time, budget, and physical possibility that every project has to live within. We’re used to thinking that everything has a cost and a benefit, and that if you don’t evaluate the product of your work, then it’s likely to not be very good or useful.
We really could use more of that in Congress, among other places. I’d rather try to draw some folks from the pool of engineering and science professionals who actually are good with people than to try to find lawyers and business people who have an intellectual outlook that’s disciplined by reality. At least, I would right now.
If he’s really a harbinger he’s a most welcome one.
Dear Howie,
I am at #112. I have to dress and go out for a dinner appointment. I will return to the chat and answer everything via email to you. If you can figure out why I couldn’t connect to FDL, please let me know.
Thank you for everyting.
Steve
Since Dr. Porter is good at math, it’s likely that someone else calculated his campaign expenses. His campaign actually spent only 98.5 cents per vote, not $1.01. The division was done in the wrong direction. The other guy’s $12.74 is apparently correct.
psyched @ 118
I have a sneaking suspicion about who did the math, but I will abstain from commenting further… tee hee..
Thanks for time and consideration Dr. Porter.
psyched @ 118
Perhaps there was a secret $2,038.17 slush fund somewhere.
psyched @ 118
mea culpa (Howie); thanks for the correction. I’ve always been lousy at math
Thanks Howie. Hey, we forgot to ask Dr. Porter about his favorie music.
He’ll try to log on after dinner and answer more questions he finds here
Howie Klein @ 122
Hey, you’re an IDEA guy! That’s why we love you.
Howie Klein @ 113
Indeed. Thank you for being part of that cleanup process.
(Some professions inherently involve ‘reality-checks’, and it would also be nice to see more types of information entering Congressional debate. Nevertheless, your point is very, very well taken and certainly elucidates the core issue – an urgent need for greater personal responsibility and integrity. I concur ;-)
I, on the other hand, need to go finish a story I’m writing at DWT about the Bush Library. Hopefully the only library he ever sees is a prison library.
Just because we might loose is no reason not to Impeach Bush and Cheney. The Democrates need to make a case to the American people regarding the level of deceit and wrong doing that has been done in our name by these B***tards. Even if Impeachment fails the PROCESS is what is ultimately important. The American people need an unflinching view of this can of worms.
And though I want BUSH out of office as much as anyone, maybe the smartest course of action for the DEMs is to leave Bush alone and go after everyone else. Frankly all the investigations into oversight on the Hill right now will eventually lead to Impeachment of some of them. I think there is a strong case to go after Alberto Gonzales. The American people will see the maggots in the GOP and that will help in 2008. BUSH is a dead duck and without his followed he will be cut off at the knees.
next week: Mr. Charlie Brown
Thanks Dr. Porter for joining us
Howie Klein @ 127
Howie, did you catch our discussion the other day that the Bush *cough* Library should be in a FEMA trailer? ;)
Cujo… You are soooooo preaching to the choir.
WRT: ‘Some engineers a bit short on people skills’… FOTFLMAO ;-)
However. I actually think our sub-thread about engineering is on-topic, in the sense of ‘how can this dreadful situation be improved?’ No matter what someone’s background may be, integrity is crucial.
(If only I had 1/100th of Jane’s snark, I could say it all so much cleverly ;-))))
I left Erie (well, North East, PA) about 35 years ago for warmer climes, and is seems to me that Phil English was in the House of Reps then. Wow. Erie is a blue collar town which votes Dem at all other levels. I never did understand why they saddle themselves with a Repug rep.
Howie Klein @ 102
I cannot incline to, or necessarily agree with the posit presented here on this issue. Especially the part concerning the Bush continuance of sending additional troops after the funding has been cut off. I would question the practicality and the politics of such a move.
I believe that Bush is so out of touch his moves have no political or intelligent consideration. The man does what he wants to based on his intractable mental problems and ego. He sees no other human has relevant. The presidency is his last stand and he is cornered. This is my emotional plea for a quick and mature impeachment. There must be someone out there who can weave a logical, legal solution.
neil @ 123
I love music of all genres if it is well-crafted art. If I had to choose the music to listen to with my last breath it would probably be Brahms Symphony #2 in D.
Topanga-lib @ 128
I think if testimony taken under oath were to prove Bush and his band guilty of serious crimes, even his Republican allies in the Senate would run for cover and support a conviction.
Topanga-lib @ 130
It was just as much fun this time as last. I need to hear from you out there to check my own thinking and to know that you want candidates like me to continue.
And a farewell from Dr. Porter–
Closing comment. Thank you all so much for your support and interest. You have no idea how much I wish you all lived in Erie.