So next up, we're going to finalize the pre-trial jury instructions. Christy's getting me another cup of coffee, so I should be totally wired from here on out.
Apparently Fitz and Libby's team have agreed to some jury instructions, Walton is talking about the changes he's making to jury instructions that will be given to the teams at 2:15.
There is still a dispute regarding an addition regarding materiality requirement. [Libby has been trying to push hard on the materiality, preparing to argue, I suspect, that the alleged lies that Libby told were not material to the investigation in the case.] Walton is discussing the definition of trivial, which seems to be the way he will deal with the materiality. Will leave it as he has drafted it.
As far as the memory instruction is concerned, will not reconsider memory expert. He addressed a proposed Libby instruction:
Walton: [this is a paraphrase] I just didn't think the proposed defense instruction is appropriate, bc having the court tell the jurors that these issues will always affect memory is not true–there are people who have photographic memories. He ill tell jurors some factors they can consider that may have a role in this case.
Walton says he will return to the instruction regarding Plame's status.
Walton will talk about the proposed instruction on Libby's classified testimony. Walton has some concerns about the way it was drafted because it was telling them that something was definitive.
Walton seems to be erring on the side of letting jurors decide the relevance of classified information and memory themselves.
Wells asks about Grand jury transcript. Walton says the remaining portions of GJ testimony will be admitted, any potential prejudice from reading the GJ transcript is not so significant that it would be a problem.
From the folks in the media room, here are three things Libby was trying to exclude but won't be excluded:
A portion talking about Hadley in the WH, and he's telling Libby and Cheney they have to declassify the NIE and Libby and Cheney don't say anything to Hadley about already leaking the NIE.
A portion where Libby was questioning the CIA's intelligence–a lot of this is about Tenet falling on his sword.
And finally, a passage from both Cathie Martin's and Libby's testimony, in which it seemed like Martin was being blamed for leaking. She felt like Libby didn't stand up to defend her as not being the one who leaked.
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WOOT!
Good morning gang.
it’s going to come down to Cathie M. against Deadeye Dick.
Do you think she’s the one, early on, who said anonomously in some news story that the whole crowd was out to get Wilson and she was disgusted (or words to that effect)?
fitz!
So, maybe Cathie Martin has a few knives sharpened, eh?
(or however you spell anonymously)
W00T indeed!
So somewhere in the Grand Jury transcript there is something from Martin that suggests or implies Libby gave her a little push towards the sword?
Hmm.
Ya can’t very well argue materialality without getting into “Material to WHAT?”–in other words- that seems to lead back into the issue of the original investigation-the LEAK case! Interesting- apparently Scoots WANTS to talk about the leakie thing.
Looks like there will be some 404(b) questions on instructions and the allowance of the testimony for grand jury transcripts from Libby’s time before the G/J. I’m guessing this is dealing with the matters that touch on the NIE disclosures and Libby’s testimony thereon, bu we don’t have a copy of the G/J transcript to go on — obviously — so we’ll have to see how arguments play out on that.
– IM HOPEFUL THIS TRIAL IS THE BRICK FITZ TAKES OUT OF THEIR ROTTEN, TOTTERING WALL — AND HUMPTY DUMPTY DICK GET MUSHED IN IT. HOPE THIS GETS PAST THE MODERATORS — I SO WANTED TO USE PROFANITY.
[Mod Note; let’s remember. ALL CAPS makes people think you’re shouting. It’s court room voices today. OK?]
EPU’d from last thread
———————–
Not at all urgent, but does anyone remember what the fellow who does simulations does simulation of? I ask in part because I’m in a related field, but also because various portions of the simulations community have had an interesting time the last six years or so; climate, obviously, and also the military war games people (Millennium Challenge anyone?) and also economics (there was a very funny joke paper floating around a while back about (IIRC) the link between tax cuts, economic growth, and the “missing dark matter” problem in physics). Then there’s the Club of Rome vs. Resource Fungibility debate, and Peak Oil, etc. Oh, and forest management, epidemics and disease control…
It may not matter what sort of simulations he does, but I’d be interested to know, just out of curiosity.
–MarkusQ
rwcole @
7
The problem, I think, is that Libby’s team wants to say that the early investigation didn’t pertain to the other journalists, just to Novak, so they can say the early alleged lies were not material, and the rest were just for consistency sake.
But also, they want to have a high standard for materiality, obviously. But what Walton was talking about sounded pretty favorable to the Prosecution.
I appreciate these updates–I’ve been following them in between work I’m trying to get done here at home. We had our first real snow of the season here in Columbus yesterday. Even had to wear boots for the first time this winter. Stevie the cat has declared that it’s officially cold, at least in his cat mind, by moving from my lap to his spot on the heating vent.
DELBERT MATHANEY @ 9
HI Grandpa Delbert,
Nice to see you. Looks like its going to be a barn-burner of a trial, eh?
MarkusQ @ 10
Simulations of computer networks, I think. I think he’s doing simulations of what happens to computer networks in case of a disaster.
…must turn off computer….arrrghh….can’t do it…work waiting….aallacht…..help..
Catherine Martin is someone with whom I am least familiar in this tangled web of deception and obfuscation. Any pointers? I missed that part in class.
Bustednuckles @
4
One or twenty, I’d say. Someone (Rayne?) said that this was going to be a gender issue, powerful male treating female subordinate like total shit. Looks like that was a pretty good read.
Congrats & Thanks Pach. Terrific job!
emptywheel! Christy! rolling onward, all aboard.
incredible times, these… ;->
hackworth @ 16
VP’s spokesperson. She told Libby about Plame’s status shortly before he started leaking wildly. She was witness to his phone call to Cooper. And she was part of a conversation on July 12 in which they strategized responses.
At Fitz’s press conference about the Libby indictment there was an African American male on his team. Just wondering if he’s still with the team?
hackworth – your question about Cathy Martin reminded me of an old thread in the haloscan days of FDL when we were trying to figure out which hollywood actors should play which characters in this story. I don’t think Cathy Martin even come up. That might say something about how far this has come.
shooogarp @ 15
I believe Dilbert has some gang-busters pseudo-working desktop wallpaper samples available for easy download.
Jus’ sayin’…
rwcole @
7
I’m sure Scooter does want to talk about the “leakie thing” because (as others have pointed out) this wasn’t about a leak, it was about the misuse of classified information to stifle free speech and suppress dissent. It was official misconduct of the highest order, tantamount to treason, and they managed to reframe it as a little leakie thing.
Of course he’ll want to talk about it and try to stuff it all into the nice safe frame. Important people doing so much vital work for the nation that sometimes a true (but secret) crumb just happens to leak out plays a lot better than corrupt and manipulative warmongers willing to disregard national security to silence a critic who may be able to shed some light on their web of lies.
–MarkusQ
Adie @ 22
I’m self-employed. It sucks being the boss. How do you look over your own shoulder? ; )
emptywheel – great to have you on the beat. How did the people in the media room know about the parts of the gj transcript Libby wanted kept out? Was this disputed and – shockingly – not reported on Friday, or what? And all I can say is, I can’t wait to see that transcript. I wonder how specific and emphatic Hadley got about declassifying the NIE, and how much he put it on Cheney and Libby.
OT but 75 die in twin bombings in Baghdad.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01…..r=homepage
Given the university attack of last week, the costly weekend for American troops, and today’s bombing, there may be a spike in violence in the runup to Bush’s State of the Union. There are some Sunni and Shia groups that would both like to force US troops out because they A) they want to go after each other and B) they believe they can achieve a quick victory over their opponents.
This type of violence underlines that we are in the middle of a civil war and that Bush’s escalation will not work.
rwcole @
7
Maybe he’ll want to use the NIE and other information to show the wide variety of impending threats that consumed their thinking.
Its all in the name of emergency protection of national defense, right?
MarkusQ @ 23
MarkusQ, I think you’ve got it.
David Shuster just reported that the jurors left in the pool are being run through criminal background checks.
There better be Bush family and RNC background checks as well.
“OT but 75 die in twin bombings in Baghdad.”
That IS the topic. Everything this nation does for the next two generations will been seen throught the lens of Iraq.
I believe punaise has the same problem, but has an alter ego who cracks the whip.
OT from NPR the death toll in the Baghdad bombings is now 88. 14 more Iraqis were killed in mortar attacks elsewhere.
Also… Cathie Martin’s husband Kevin Martin is the head of the FCC. No BushCo cronyism there, nah.
Oh this is going to be juicy!
Peterr @ 29
Does that mean Team Libby is hoping to get some white-collar crooks on the panel?
Bustednuckles @ 32
*looking for whip*
OT from NPR the death toll, no one from the Bush family was killed, wounded, or even bothered. Republicans can rest easy.
Peterr @ 29
Might lose a couple o’ jurors that way, eh?
Seems a light-duty crim. background check could be done beforehand to save time/money.
I don’t know that they don’t do this…
It’s darned easy and fast for anyone to check basic criminal records from any computer connected to the tubes. You can see if anyone is on probation, in jail, recently released, an absconder and their basic criminal history if it exists – and I recon that the gubmint has something better than Joe Blow can utilize.
Morning All!! Delighted to hear Jane is home and doing well.
Thanks Empt wheel for the info. Very Interesting.
Markus Q has an intersting point but I would like some info on the finer points as I am new to some of this not having found you all until this fall and my brain is a little hazy from the weekend. So a quick reminder: What is the NIE and how is that important to Libby et al?
shooogarp @ 24
Hearin’ you, shooogarp. I’m supposed to be editing. Like a good book, can’t stop reading the blow-by-blow on Libby jury selection, so I’ve got way too many windows open. Editing/sourcing jobs not suffering…yet :)
Badwater @ 30
In cases where any unpaid parking tickets are found, they’ve got to purge registered democrats.
Yes, I should shoot my computer. Can’t tear myself away.
Good wishes to Jane.
EvilDrPuma @ 36
Trying to find a jury of Scooter’s peers?
Shez @ 34
And Sen McConnell’s wife is Secretary of Labor.
No wonder nothing happened during Bush’s first
six years and counting…
Marie Roget @ 41
Ah, the mysterious Mlle Roget! Have we met before? Paris? London? Rue Morgue?
EvilDrPuma @ 36
I like the way you think.
Colleen military mom @ 43
I can’t pull away either. Even though I promise myself that I will only check while I’m doing something else on line like reading the morning funnies on line. But, this event is to important and I get hooked.
Jeff @ 25
I like to see the new Congress do a good and thorough accounting of what was leaked and declassified by the WH over the year prior to when they leaked Plame’s ID.
The Next Hurrah has a great discussion in regards to Cathie Martin’s involvement if you’re interested.
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c….._coun.html
Great coverage guys! Thank you!
emptywheel do you ever sleep??
Colleen military mom @ 43
Colleen military mom! Long time no see.
It appears that I am vindicated by my astute assertion that everyone would soon go to lunch.
Just stopped by Kos and found this:
Topanga-lib @ 40
NIE = National Intelligence Estimate; a document that is supposed to sum up what the US knows about the world around it. As a consequence, it is classified.
It enters into this case in at leat three ways that I know of.
1. Portions of it were selectively leaked (”cherry picked”) by the administration to support the war, and these and other hand-picked portions were shown to congress, leading to the (false) claim that “congress voted for the war knowing everything we did” — generally accompanied by the claim that the administration also knows more than everyone else.
2. Team Libby would presumably like to include this and many other unrelated-except-for-timing items to bolster their
greymail“I forgot” defense.3. Libby’s testimony / defense narrative on the handling of the NIE is also arguably self contradictory or may point to novel theories about how delegatible the ability to declassify things is.
–MarkusQ
Bustednuckles @ 32
3sivund? help me out here people.
shooogarp @
37
must. resist. 3sivund says so.
emptywheel @ 14
Interesting. I have several friends at a DC-area company that does network simulations. I’ll have to ask if any of their co-workers are out on jury duty…
I gotta say, that just about sums up the whole deal.
P.S. – I tried to clean up the blockquote but I guess I didn’t do it right.
HotFlash @
46
Or perhaps the Book Festival @ UCLA? ;)
Thanks MarkusQ -
I know about the info but I didn’t remember the acronym. Thanks.
PS Did you see Tom Toles this morning with Bush in Jail?
Hi egregious and all. I haven’t commented much lately, but I never miss a post.
Feels like family, here.
What Marcus Q said about the frame, @23, that is.
Here the address of the Tom Toles Cartoon – seemed appropriate for the conversation
washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/cartoonsandvideos/toles_main.html
OT, my apologies, but had to get this one in.
Christy’s favorite “writer,” Debra Dickerson, just wrote in Salon that Obama isn’t black:
My bold.
EvilDrPuma @ 36
It’s fair.
You’re supposed to get a jury of your peers.
OT..but this is what, in the end, it is all about. An 81 yo man is visited by the secret service about a letter to the editor that he wrote.
http://rawstory.com/showarticl…..143356.txt
MarkusQ @ 54
What weight is given to ‘novel theories’ that essentially have never been tested in court before?
Is the court on Break? for Lunch? When are they expected back?
I’m asking becuase if they are, I can get some stuff done and get back for liveblogging.
Will liveblogging continue on this thread?
Steve @ 66
Yikes. In case I haven’t said it lately, I’m going on record as saying I *still* want my country back.
great cut-to-the chase insights from MarkusQ
Topanga-lib @ 63
Link doesn’t work. Extra space?
Wha about linky or other linky obligatory extra words, to see if code closed?
Colleen Military Mom – yes, good to see you still with us !
how/where is your uniformed child ?
as a Plameologist grunt and with no disrespect to the more informed commenters above – materiality, schmateriality – this idolatrous bastard is on trial for lying, not leaking
Biodun @ 64
I get it! Obama is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He has ulterior motives – a secret agenda – he intends to infiltrate our gubmint for the benefit of Africa! (I am reminded of Lieberman, somehow.) Obama Hussein must be stopped!
egregious @ 55
it’s a visual puzzle. imagine it upside down and backwards. if you’re musical it’s a retrograde inversion.
Sorry new at this.
Try this one:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/….._main.html
Steve @ 66
This was on page 2 of my local small-town paper this morning. I’ll I can think somebody’s awfully touchy thesedays. If someone writes “they hanged the wrong man”, why would the Secret Service assume a reference to the POTUS? One would almost think they are prepping for a war crimes trial at The Hague.
Biodun @ 64
Actually I can see her point. My brothers are biracial, their birth mothers white and their parents are/were both white. As far as their sense of the world when they were young, it was a reflection of our white, English immigrant family.
For one of my brothers when he went to college which had a high black population (which was generally Caribbean origin) he found it quite a culture shock to fit in because of appearance but not world view. And interestingly enough that brother’s own black roots do go back to American slaves who had escaped through the Underground Railroad.
But the point about to a police officer Obama would be black, that is also true too. My brothers have been stopped for driving while black.
I guess what it makes me think is that on some issues, Obama may be sympathetic, empathetic and supportive but may lack the internalized sense of “this is about me” that Americans who trace their ancestry back to the slaves may have.
Whether this sets him up for failure or success remains to be seen.
While the Adie effect is in progress, check out TPM, Josh has kicked in the afterburners. He quotes Woody quoting David Kay:
Other tasty tidbits there about Mrs. Thurston Howell at Gilligan’s Post.
hey marcy! nice write up about you in the ann arbor news!
.
.
Ooooo K, can’t edit from 5000 miles away. I get that.
First link not so swell, second one seems to get Toles. Issue is long link that goes more than one line. The kind of thing that leads many of us to desperate measures: learning how to encode links [shudder].
YOU CAN DO IT!!!
My son is in Irag for another 12 months. He’s in the Guard.
He just called to tell me his tour will be extended 4 months. Surprise!
He has a fairly safe job as (in his words) an office bi*ch. Thank God.
Thanks for the comments relating to rulings from the bench, etc.
MR. LIBBY’S PROPOSED JURY INSTRUCTION ON CLASSIFIED INFORMATION (scroll down to the end)
HotFlash @ 44
Not too hard in Washington.
Colleen military mom @ 81
(((((Colleen and son)))))
the usu stream of un-egr-like curses…
Steve @
66
Here’s my letter-to-the-editors this morning (probably won’t get printed):
hackworth @ 73
I get it. He is BAD because he is not black,and BAD because he is …..and we are not talking about bad here in a hip good way it seems!
I heard an NPR story on the trial this morning. It did have some interesting information and raised some issues I haven’t seen here, like that the jury candidates seem to be about 80% white, even though the DC population is majority black, and why is this? Also, that almost every black jury candidate had had negative experiences with law enforcement (e.g. the guy who was arrested four times, and all four cases were mistakes that led to no charges). Her focus seemed to be on what the process says about Washington, the usual “small town” kind of thing.
But then the reporter took an odd shot at “bloggers”, saying that bloggers were claiming that the fix was in because Walton was a Republican appointee originally, and I don’t recall ever seeing such a claim on Firedoglake. Nothing else was said about bloggers other than this.
Joe – thanks for the update on the NPR story … I’ll check into it as part of my press work for our team and see if we can get a chance to respond.
Colleen military mom @ 81
Colleen, I can sure empathize. Our oldest boy (career Air Force) was just deployed to Baghdad for 4 months and we all suspect it will be extended. He too is in a sort of safe spot but it’s still hard not to cringe at all the bad news.
Big hugs to you and god bless our children. Let them stay safe and come home healthy.
Susan
Joe Buck @ 88
You can disregard any portion of a mainstream media report that starts out with “some bloggers say”.
The mainstream media in its reporting tends to either (i) pick the looniest ideas from the most random bloggers, in order to paint the entire blogosphere as occupied with conspiracy theorists and tinfoil hat wearers or (ii) use references to blogger opinions to incorporate their own editorial feelings into its straight reporting, just as Fox news uses the expression “some say” before launching into its latest smear of the Democratic party or its candidates.
The NPR story you mentioned is an example of item (i) above.
For an example of item (ii), you can look at the news coverage of the Rose Bowl, where the commentators used references to “bloggers” to introduce their own commentary about the possibility that Lloyd Carr should be fired as Michigan’s coach. It was clear that the commentators just wanted to gossip about Lloyd Carr’s job security and they were using “some bloggers say” as their excuse for introducing the issue.
Are the criminal background checks to get rid of any non-criminal jurors, so Libby can be tried by a jury of his peers?
*xyz @ 91
Just to clarify, there is a distinction between references to “bloggers” generally and references to specific bloggers. If it is the latter, then my observations above are not applicable.
new thread
Bionic @ 77:
Alan Keyes, A native-born African-American who ran against Obama for the Senate seat, argued in the campaign along the same lines. That argument obviously fell on deaf ears. Obama was born in the United States. He is therefore not an African immigrant.
Americans under 27 years old are the most ethnically and racially diverse group in the world. That generation compels a recalibration of issues of race and ethnicity in the context of globalization. But all that is a topic for another thread, if it ever comes up.
fitz! jane….you lurking yet? teeheehee
Biodun @ 96
I wasn’t suggesting he was an immigrant, but the fact that his father was one does play a part in his world view. I agree that the old ideas of black and white divisions that America holds so dear have to be recalibrated.
I would hope people would be more interested in hearing what candidates have to say and looking at what they have done than vote for the convenient cardboard cutout that media likes to use to represent them.
Oh wait. I just remembered Lieberman.
emptywheel @ 19
Could Ms. Martin be the mysterious immunized witness?
Warner leads effort on second resolution criticizing Bush’s Iraq plan
Colleen – extra prayers for peace of mind being sent your way
David Kay on Condi -
from Frontline’s The Dark Side (Cheney)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/…..cript.html
loved, loved, loved when they shipped him over there and all of Wingnutostan was touting his cred – only to find upon his return that he hated america
MarkusQ @ 54
I’d alter number 3 as follows:
Libby had a note that Dick ordered him to leak something to Judy Miller on July 8. He said he was ordered to leak the NIE. That story is completely implausible. Thicker bullshit than they gave us to get us into the war. Therefore, it seems very likely (very very very likely) that Libby was ordered to leak something else, such as, say, Plame’s ID.
skippy @ 78
THanks for the link–yes, it is nice. Particularly since the A2 News has a bit of a righty bent to it, particularly for a city full of hippies.
EW- fantastic live-blogging – I felt like I was there – keep up the good work
cboldt @ 82
In other words: “If he seems ’shifty’ on the stand, he’s probably just following instructions not to discuss National Security sensitive material – so – nevermind”
*xyz @ 93
You could also consider he is using a comment to a blog as a reference to paint the “group.”
Hey all you intrepid guys at #41.
Congrats to all, for daring to be self-employed. I tried a bit-a that – drove myself & probably a few others nuts!
Guaranteed mixed bag.
At least you don’t have to answer to someone else.
But of course you’re harder on yourself than anyone else would be.
Then there’s the guilt-trip.
But then there’s the personal control over the schedule.
But then… But then…
THANKS, wonderful gang, for CHOOSING to donate part of your valuable time to this incredibly worthy cause!
YES! I mean it. No kidding.
Part of the refrigerator-art in our house is a photo of a small country church. On the announcement board out by the road is this simple, wonderful message:
“We Don’t Do Guilt”
If I were you, I’d make a copy of that sign & set it on your computer table. ;->
N.B. No margins were injured by the construction of this message.