
DC Federal Court
(For today's jury selection status and live blogging updates, please see here and here.)
I'm not an attorney and have not viewed any other criminal voir dire processes, though it seems to me that Judge Walton was trying to give the defense a certain amount of latitude to explore potential biases among jurors. Judge Walton has done high profile cases before, and this one is a doozy. Everyone has an opinion – check that, most people have an opinion – about this administration and the case made in support of the invasion of Iraq. Those events form the backdrop to this case, and they involve some of the case's main characters, most centrally, Scooter Libby (defendant) and Vice President Dick Cheney (witness).
Pat Fitzgerald, the prosecutor in the case, seems a bit frustrated by how much latitude is granted to Libby's attorneys, because it draws Team Libby very close to representing during voir dire that the case is about the war, which it is not. To the extent Team Libby is successful in going right up to that line, they have more opportunity to get jurors rejected for cause who, upon sustained inquiry, confess they don't have a lot of faith in the Vice President or, by extension, his former right hand man, Scooter Libby, even if they state more than once that they believe they can take the case and its evidence on the merits, according to the judge's instructions. Fitzgerald even had some success in making an argument to Judge Walton on the matter as the day progressed, though Wells still found enough room to bring the war into his questioning through more careful wording.
Today, one juror admitted the possibility after sustained questioning by Ted Wells that strong feelings about the Vice President could, in theory, at least subconsciously make it difficult to render a fully impartial judgment of testimony by Cheney if it were contradicted by someone else's testimony. She was then excused for cause, after much sidebar discussion. Whuh? Subconscious motivations are, by definition, unavailable to the conscious mind. If a potential juror admits that she may hypothetically be influenced by operations of her mind outside of her direct awareness, she is merely being honest and self-aware.
Such honesty, such self awareness, seems to be too much for jury inclusion, even though this woman elsewhere stated, when questioned directly by Judge Walton and by Pat Fitzgerald, that she would be able to set aside all her previously held feelings about the administration and the case made for war in favor of the evidence presented, according to whatever instructions were given to the jury.
Now, it may also be that she should have been struck, because she did admit she felt "terribly betrayed" by the decision to go to war, believing that decision to have been a "tremendous, terrible mistake." But contrast her with one of the day's last potential jurors: a young defense attorney from one of the law firms in town.
This young man was a very polished potential juror, skilled at answering questions, who gave every appearance of wanting to get onto the jury: he said all the right things about the way he would make deliberations. However:
- His fiancee represents one of the probable witnesses in the case.
- He cites first among the blogs he reads "Glenn Reynolds, Instapundit" before throwing in Josh Marshall's Talking Points Memo, DailyKos, Eugene Volokh, How Appealing and some other law related blog. Like that Sesame Street song about something not belonging here, DailyKos sticks out (TPM is a rather centrist, leftish blog focused mostly on journalism, frequently linked by Reynolds, if only by way of attempted rebuttal). Volokh and Instapundit are very aggressive right wing blogs, and Glenn Reynolds has written frequently and dismissively about this case and whether it ever should have been brought. I saw this young man's testimony from a seat in the courtroom and I think he was, if not lying, being very conscious about trying to create a false impression of nonpartisan balance. He was, in my view, consciously deceiving. Why else do I believe that? Let's keep going.
- He started out by saying he knew very little about the case, but upon questioning, he had a great deal of familiarity, in great detail, with its history, and had even read the indictment.
- He stated he believed that the administration was not entirely accurate in making its case for war, but did not believe that this was the result of conscious deception. He stated he understands certain things have to be said to be persuasive, to promote public support, but he feels the administration did not do a good job, because he believes there are reasons, "even very good reasons," why we should have gone to war. Note the present tense. He stated he faults the administration for handling the making of the case for war poorly, though politically, he takes a "middle of the road" approach. Uh Huh. So far, his views place him in the decided minority in the population.
- Did I mention his current boss is a friend of Libby's attorney, William Jeffress? What are this guy's chances of becoming a partner as a defense counsel in DC if he were to be on a jury that found for the government against Scooter Libby? DC attorneys will likely say publicly, if asked, that it wouldn't matter, but everyone who knows how becoming a law partner works knows it ain't necessarily so, depending on the firm.
- He's also doing work representing U. S. soldiers undergoing court martial in connection with the deaths of Iraqi civilians. Odds are, that's work he wanted to do, and for all we know, he may be doing it pro bono.
- In response to a question about Cheney's potential testimony, he averred Cheney is not his favorite person, and more or less like any other politician. He added, these opinions would not affect his estimate of any sworn testimony, since he expects that no one would really perjure themselves under oath. Yep, that's what he said, during voir dire of a perjury case. Oops. Bit of a slip, that.
In short, the whole picture of this young man is of a true believer in the war against superugly islamonazifascists, or whatever we're calling them these days. But he smiled, answered questions with lawyerly precision and coolly assured the court he would be fair and objective in all matters, dealing only with the evidence before him, even giving jury room deliberations the benefit of his lawyerly ability to sift through fine nuances. Uh huh.
Now, of the two jurors, in the abstract interests of fairness at a trial, I would rather have the former, whom I believe to be more honest, over the latter, and yet the former has been struck while the latter remains. Even though my opinions hew much more closely to those of the woman who was excused than they do to those of the lawyer who remains, I would say this even if their views of the war were reversed: if we on the progressive left have been raging about anything these last few years, it has been about the restoration of the fundamental integrity of the institutions governing our public life. I trust the woman who was excused because I find her to be aware of her potential biases and committed to rise above them. The young attorney, on the other hand, I find smoothly and willfully deceptive.
I expect the young attorney to be stricken by a peremptory challenge from the prosecution once the time comes, but my wider point is this: all this fishing about the war, and potential jurors' attitudes towards it, may be helping Team Libby weed out some otherwise honest jurors who could and would do a fine, fair job. On the other hand, I understand the Judge's desire to give the defense some latitude, given the enormity of the challenge the defense faces due to the war's unpopularity, and the fact that testimony in the case will remind jurors of the nation's decision to invade and occupy Iraq.
Where does this leave the process? Actually, once all the peremptory challenges are done, I expect the result will be a fair jury overall; I think the process is basically working. And yet I admit, watching a jury be selected feels quite a lot like viewing the production of sausage.




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FITZ!!
Pach, did you witness this PSYOPs battle being waged in the Men’s Room between opposing counsel?
PACH!!!
If I was up for jury selection, I would go way beyond admitting my bias against trusting the VP’s testimony. I would direct a scathing diatribe at Irving and Ms. Comstock. I would say things that would make Fitz blush.
Is the Jury Selection Process Fair?
Let’s see, if you exclude all potential jurors who hold the opinion — arguably based on objective reality — that most if not all key officials in the Bush administration are lying sacks of shit … nope, not fair. Stacked in favor of the lying sacks of shit.
Just wanted to say thanks to Pach~ I am addicted to your descriptions of the questioning and the people~you are doing a great job and I am grateful…
Great post. It does seem that honesty is being devalued in the process, while those who
game the systemanswer correctly have the upper hand. Hopefully justice will be served.One question, Pach. After you were allowed to go into the courtroom itself what was the vibe like?
P.S. Thanks for doing such a terrific job today!
Pach. mygawshyeraspeedyfella! Below EPU’d
Just try to have as relaxing a weekend as you can. This ain’t over…
Trying circumstances to the extreme this week.
You are absolutely fantastic!
THANK YOU!
I think you probably single-handedly saved the sanity of thousands of folks today.
That’s a good thing, eh?
Sleep well, fella. Ya done good ;->
If you get a chance to contact Jane over the weekend, please let her know we all have her in our thoughts and prayers.
Pach – excellent job, really amazing, both live, and in this thoughtful post. Over the afternoon, we read a fair number of fdl’ers with Esq. shingles (mine says something else) extoling the system, or at least supporting Judge Walton, and giving wide latitude to Wells. On the other hand, I couldn’t help but think of all the black and/or poor guys on death row, or with long prison terms, for crimes that white and wealthy guys would probably have gotten off on. This “difference” in the judiciary begins exactly here (and in who gets to be selected as judge (political ties). Attorneys have to believe in their profession and the end result of balanced judiciary rulings. I see it in a different way, now, as before.
dannyM @
4
Danny- they would kick you out before you got rightly started. “Thank you, you’re excused.” Doesn’t matter if you are rational or even correct- you’re not supposed to have a bias going in.
Hi Pach, thanks for your riveting feedback. You get better each day.
I hope Monday is a lot less frustrating for Fitz.
I am surprised that the lawyer wasn’t tossed, too. Does anyone know if, once passed this hurdle that they can’t be reconsidered and excused for cause on Monday? Or is the only options the peremptory challenge or getting seated on the jury.
Methinks the judge might have been getting a little frustrated at not getting through voir dire on schedule and having to up the pool, then figured that he was going to let them use the peremptory challenges on only the most egregious offenders. Yeah, I know that a good judge wouldn’t do that, but everyone has a bad day.
And thanks, Pach, for putting yourself out there. Much courage to take on the challenge live without the legal experience.
You’ve done yourself proud.
Delurking to say a big ol’ thanks to FDL and Pach. I have become quickly addicted to these liveblogs. It’s fascinating stuff, and I’m sure that’s in part to the writing and other commentators (Christy, lhp, emptywheel, etc.) who know so much about the system as well as this specific case.
Now I need to get my check off to the snail mail addy.
Merry Fitzmas to All!
capeman @ 12
The judge is doing this in what I gather is the traditional way: real time motions for cause, and then, no more cause motions, absent new information volunteered by the juror. It’s all peremptories now.
pach, thanks for all you’re doing; it’s just terrific.
can’t help but feel curious about the stance fitz took with this lawyerly dude.
and as for the ’sausage’ comparison; my take is it’s a lot like american idol. a string of variously qualified to unqualified individuals who are put under microscopes and then rather brutally and arbitrarily dismissed.
we can only hope there are no more of this lawyerly type in the pool.
I thought about writing general in the courtroom impressions, but frankly, while it may be mildly dishy, it didn’t flow out of me when I sat in front of a blank computer screen to write I did not know what. Maybe another time.
I’m as anti-Cheney as they come, but our justice system is geared towards giving defendents the benefit of the doubt. It’s better to get this shit out of the way now rather than on an appeal, but that is from an opinion based on vanilla justice (trying to get a final verdict as early as possible), although from a political standpoint, then a guilty verdict, even if it’s successfully appealed due to jury questions, would be better from the anti-Cheny POV because it would give months of punditry to that crowd (witness the reactions towards Libby getting indicted vs. Rove not)
sausage!
Pachacutec @ 17
Did you answer the question on what the courtroom smelled like? (prior thread somewhere) I thought that was an interesting question
ruffian @ 20
Heh. I missed that one. I did not notice any kind of odor.
An Assrocket fan cleared the first hurdle? LIB!
Sausage – I had to delete the hypothetical question I want Fitz to ask of the Faux News lovers…
Rove must still be giving advise with his math. How else will they spin “can’t find enough people to ignore prior Cheney bullshit”?
“There’s nothing like the fresh smell of indictments in the morning”
Paraphrasing Robert Duvall in Apocalypse Now!
Pachacutec @ 21
Marcy asked that in the Moonwalking thread at 3:10 #220:
If you know the Bush administration to be liars, how do you put that knowledge aside to make an impartial judgment about a member of the Bush administration who is on trial for lying? How can you presume innocence?
lina @ 26
A: Sure, I’d be more’n happy to listen to them flap their yap before convicting his ass!
Pach, another fascinating day of reading your blogs. EW was the one who asked about the smell. How was it different being in the court room versus watching the feed? What was it like to update the reporters as one of the two observers allowed in the court room? Did they ask a lot of questions?
I know that when I went through voir dire for a case (in which the plaintiff was alleging horrific back problems as a result of an accident) I was sure that I would not be chosen (because of my knowledge of Gray’s Anatomy of the Human Body and other stuff, like I am a health care professional).
I was.
Then the plaintiff jerked his “bad” neck and “injured” back around toward the persons and lawyer he was suing, and I conveyed my disbelief of his injuries to the rest of the jury.
The End.
The plaintiff lost.
the short story is this: miracles and justice DO happen!
Yay, Jane!
Thank you very much for what you are doing, and how well you are doing it!!!
The pool seems skewed.
From City-Data.com
(http://www.city-data.com/city/Washington-District-of-Columbia.html):
Races in Washington, DC:
Black (60.0%)
White Non-Hispanic (27.8%)
Hispanic (7.9%)
Other race (3.8%)
Two or more races (2.4%)
American Indian (0.8%)
Chinese (0.7%)
You’re doing such an amazing job Pach, glad I can finally tell you in a current thread. The live insights
Witnessing for We the Peopleare absolutely an historical perspective we will relish for years.I made sure we replaced my malfunctioning monitor this week so that I don’t miss a thing, so good to be back online with you all.
Re: “Did I mention his current boss is a friend of Libby’s attorney, William Jeffress?”
and
“He added, these opinions would not affect his estimate of any sworn testimony, since he expects that no one would really perjure themselves under oath. Yep, that’s what he said, during voir dire of a perjury case. Oops. Bit of a slip, that.”
Catapult !!!
I will be seriously outraged if someone like that person serves on the jury.
FWIW: Bush’s SOTU is scheduled for Tuesday next week, 1/23/07.
If voir dire finishes as planned on Monday, the first day of opening remarks will also be… 1/23/07
Great job. checks in the mail. I’m asking everyone, please send something.
pdaly @ 33
c’mon Jim Webb– bring it on along with Fitz and Walton!
Watson @
30
The pool looks a lot whiter than DC, and this is true of the 100 people who answered the jury summons. The system, as I understand it, is constructed so as to target racial balance, including as it does mundane lists like utility bills, but for whatever reason, this is kind of a sea of whitey.
I reported a preliminary racial breakdown of the existing pool earlier today on the front page, though the numbers are not up to date.
A rhetorical question, I’m sure? I still remember my go around. Just a ticket, but if they wanted my $150, I thought they oughta have to earn it.
I walk into the court room in a SC county that is about 65% white. The room was fairly represented: the 65% white were in the jury pool, the 35% “other” were the defendents. Did I mention you had to work at Bob Jones U. to be in the jury pool? Or at least teach Sunday school?
Out of the half dozen “normal” folks in the group of 120, only one was pulled out of the hat for me. That young lady was quickly shown the exit.
I made lots of points by refusing to swear on their bible, saying I thought I had the right to be judged by my PEERS and calling their prosecutor a liar (she had NEVER exceeded the legal speed limit in her 60 years). Perhaps hopping out of the court room like a Kangaroo was a bit childish, but… I wouldn’t trade the experience for anything. A real eye-opener, which gave me just a bit of perspective on how minorities feel.
Not sure how I stayed outta jail. Have I ever mentioned I don’t like to be bullied?
pdaly @ 33
An orchestrated coinkydink? Nah… oh wait…
That was a very astute observation about the potential juror’s subconscious feelings being the cause for dismissal. I have always thought that the law falls very short of psychological determination. (Sanity plea for example.) Now the law has to dip into the subconscious processes of our inner selves. Seems like a very dangerous area to me. Any thoughts Pach?
Dexter @
28
These are all good questions worthy of longer answers than I feel I lack the energy at the moment to provide. I will get to them. But here’s the short answers:
Taste’s great; less filling. I felt I could watch faces and behavioral tics better, dynamics across the room and the players, when inside the courtroom.
On the other hand, being around the other media folks helped me catch quotes better, since they are better quote catchers. The media room also makes for a group experience that at once clarifies errant impressions through live dialogue and also supports the creation of a consensus point of view of the proceedings, evening out the coverage, through the creation of a shared understanding of events as they develop, since members of different news outlets influence each other, subtly.
Heh. In truth, most of them were gone, it was late. In practice, the video feed provides so much information, anything that has come from the pool report has been of very marginal added value, in most cases.
Really fine job today Pach, bringing it vividly home to my computer screen. Thanks!
Boy, this process is a far cry from how Wikipedia describes voir dire in England:
Would that we had this process, and could get on with the proceedings. And yet, as has been mused about here, Team Libby likely is muddying the waters because they know they are not holding a winning hand.
Herein lies the difference:
On the other hand, being around the other media folks helped be catch quotes better, since they are better quote catchers
Pach is playing an anticipated role in our system of government. The propagandist would have never admitted such a thing because their minders wouldn’t allow it.
Libby was still taking notes, though I sat on the other side of the courtroom, the better to view the potential jurors in the witness box, so I could not see his writing.
I will say that Libby’s presentation, seated, walking around, in the cafeteria, is very. . . neat. He almost looks delicate, fastidious.
He is not tall, perhaps 5′6″, and he’s quite small boned. He’s very well coiffed and tailored. He seems ever composed: not, frankly, the type to behave without plan or forethought.
Pach, another media question – I’ve always been impressed by David Schuster’s reporting on Plamegate – have you encountered Schuster and what is your impression?
Diane @ 45
He sits right behind me in the media room; we’ve chatted quite a bit. He’s quite likable, seems down to earth, and seems somehow to take the position he’s in with a kind of simultaneous professionalism and wry detachment.
Pachacutec @ 44
are you saying that Irving must certainly remember even though he was soooo busy????????
He’s not a dolt, eh?
bwhahaha.
Pachacutec @ 44
In other words, he’s the spittin’ image of a neocon :)
Stewart “The President doesn’t think the Constitution is binding” great line!
Blub @ 48
Wolfowitz spit on his comb.
blergh.
Mornin’. [well it is here] Just checking in, arrived in Russia. Getting my medical and surgical supplies through customs here this time was a complete nightmare. This is my 29th trip and I have a humanitarian visa, letters from officials, been on tv etc but still somehow they treat me like a criminal. It makes me want to quit. I often think about quitting but some of those times are more serious. This is one.
I will take the supplies that didn’t get SLICED OPEN with me to the hospital. [thereby followed a long stream of unegregious-like curses]
On the plus side I hope to see Boris today.
Let’s just say he does not come across as one prone to wild bursts of madcap spontaneity, at least, in his work life.
As far as. . . other pursuits. . . he looks the kinky type to me.
By the way, I was writing this up to the last minute, and it was still later than I had hoped. Refresh and help me hunt down remaining typos, if you will.
and meanwhile, back on the funny farm of neocondom, this lovely headline about courtroom procedures that Libby will never be subject to:
“Manual to allow executions based on hearsay
Pentagon plan for detainee trials could spark fresh bipartisan debate
Updated: 2:52 p.m. ET Jan 18, 2007
WASHINGTON, AP – The Pentagon has drafted a manual for upcoming detainee trials that would allow suspected terrorists to be convicted on hearsay evidence and coerced testimony and imprisoned or put to death.”
Ummm…
Yeah, sex with bears sounds kind of kinky.
egregious – glad you arrived safely…..keep safe and enjoy the little ones and their little beating hearts there in St. P’s.
Judge Walton trying to give the defense a certain amount of latitude to explore potential biases among jurors.
Judge Walton WAS trying?
Blub @ 54
What Constitution?
omg. We have much more work to do.
Marvelous job, Pach, really great work.
Do you have the sense of history being made?
No pressure there, mind you. Just wondered if it’s there in the background while you’re observing and typing away.
“..even if they state more than once that believe they can take the case and its evidence on the merits, according to the judge’s instructions.”
“..even if they state more than once that THEY believe they can take the case and its evidence on the merits, according to the judge’s instructions.”
Thanks, Dexter.
My colleagues in the press room are under the impression we have no editors in the blogoverse.
That may be true of people like Glen Reynolds, who don’t allow comments, but we have all of you. We bloggers with commenters have lots of editors.
What we don’t have, though, are people telling us what to write about, assigning us to stories.
One thing I don’t understand is that if Fitz and the govt are limiting the scope of the trial to not be about the war and focusing only on what Libby did as far as lying to investigators, but yet, Ted Wells et al are making the whole voire dire process about the war, doesn’t that give Fitz more latitude in what he can bring up about the war?
principless/b principals (they’re the main players, and quite unprincipled, at that.)Nor do bloggers exchange ethics for access.
Thanks, Pach, for your insight and your willingness to write with vision, both on this and on the immigration (says this immigrant’s daughter). I have a huge debt of gratitude to you (and I admire your writing style, as I do of so many here).
Maybe the good guys will get some ringers, too – when hell freezes over. With global warming and concurrent strange weather phenomena, anything is possible.
Regarding the young attorney, a some point you’d think a person recognizes that those kinds of ties creates a conflict that is not in their personal best interest to ignore.
I take the potential for familiarity and relationship biases very seriously in the work I choose to do in order maintain appropriate boundaries to protect myself and best serve the people I affiliate with. Because it matters for what I do, I might just be more sensitive relative to the average person, but I think it’s a little kooky that this guy didn’t seem fazed in the least about how this could affect him personally.
Pach, I’d rather have your intellegent insights with typos than “better quote catchers” any day. Keep it up.
Witney @ 62
That stands to reason and I hope that this is true. But Fitz always said that this case is about LYING and not about the war; I trust Mr. Fitzgerald.
He’s very smart, you know.
Witney @
62
Emptywheel or Christy may be better at this one than I, but I think Fitz does not want to take it that far afield, about the war. It’s a very emotional and divisive matter, and people really hate to think there was intentional deceit. Anyway, it’s separate from the charges. Fitz wants to keep it simple, though I expect if he thinks the war issue confers to his side any background benefit by way of subtext, he’ll take it, even if he won’t try to manipulate or benefit from it.
Fitz is the kind of 47 year old nun beaten altar boy who thinks playing it straight is also playing it smart, beyond the ethics, just from a pragmatic point of view.
That’s my take.
Are you sure about “principles,” as in, “principle actors in the administration?” I always think of the -al version as the guy who runs the school.
Help, anyone?
Totally OT, but from C&L:
O’Reilly is so out-classed here, it’s pathetic.
With all the stress of the last day or so (we’re here for you Jane!), here’s a link for a good laugh. Colbert just absolutely embarrASSed O’Lielly on Billy’s own show. This was much like the Press Dinner Colbert did last year, where the subject of Colbert’s sarcasm was clueless as to how they were really being ass-kicked. Frickin’ genius, man.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..ly-factor/
Forcing Fitzgerald to burn a peremptory, already starting with fewer than the defense. Not fair and balanced at all.
Argh. Intelligent. My bad.
Pachacutec @ 71
“Principal” is correct; it means “primary” as well as the school guy.
i was once up for jury selection here in l.a. several years ago, it was a case involving some sort of gang violence. one of the potential female jurors admitted that gangs were a problem in her neighborhood and it also turned out that she had two young sons. when asked if this would keep her from being impartial she said, “no”. now everyone had been attesting to their ability to be fair – and i think that’s great and all – and maybe she really did think that it wouldn’t color her judgment, but i almost smacked my head at that one. i don’t know if she ultimately made it or not. i got bounced when i said, yes, my experience as a crime victim would indeed effect my ability to be impartial (you should have seen the shock on the lawyer’s faces at that one).
Pachacutec @ 15
Not necessarily. Many Judges do not dismiss jurors immediately after they say the magic words that get them excused; they do not want the others in the panel to learn what will get then off the jury.
I suspect that after the entire panel has been questioned and it comes to the actual jury selection, Fitz will get another opportunity to ask the Judge not to seat the young defense lawyer who obviously is trying to get on the jury before he needs to use a preemptory strike. (at least that is likely what would happen in the SD Florida)
Heh. I already changed it to “main characters.” Because it’s late and my head hurts, and this probably reads better anyway.
Pachacutec (61) — actually, I’d disagree with that point; bloggers actually do have a lot of people telling them what stories to write or cover.
If you weren’t covering the right one, you wouldn’t see the traffic you’re getting, for starters. The comments would also reflect a disconnect.
The difference is that this is a highly organic process, not a hierarchical organization with profit motives that come before information.
Pachacutec @ 70
Pach,
Thank you for your response, but mostly, THANK YOU for what you are doing. My father was a Texas State District judge and aside from the many interesting cases he had, its hard to sit there all day and digest this and still write about it at the end of the day. My best thoughts to all of you (and how exciting it must be to see Fitz in person)!! He has such a quiet confidence in himself and that is what comes across when I see him on the news. Nighty night from The Woodlands, Texas.
bushworstpresidentever @ 78
No jurors in this case witness the questioning of any other juror, nor are they allowed to discuss their voir dire with each other.
Pachacutec @ 52
I trust your (first) impressions. You have demonstrated that you posess a quick and penetrating mind and you are very perceptive.
Kinky he is!
Pachacutec @ 71
Yeah, I’m sure (’cause I always thought of the school principal, too, and really had to bend my brain to extend the term). That’s why the main man/woman at school is called the Principal. (And BTW, I’m really impressed at how you write. Absolutely, keep it up).
Pach: “all this fishing about the war, and potential jurors’ attitudes towards it, may be helping Team Libby weed out some otherwise honest jurors who could and would do a fine, fair job.”
That’s exactly what they want to do, and in that they are not an exception (although I would instinctively suspect them of foul play). Lawyers on either side of a case don’t see it as their job to get a fair jury; they see it as their job to win the case (presumably by acting within the rules).
How would you like to be a defendant in a death penalty case where the prosecution tries to weed out anyone who doesn’t love the death penalty (thus also weeding out anyone who is capable of anything other than black-and-white, all-or-none thinking or capable of having intelligent doubt about their own conclusions)?
Trying to visualize sausage production. :)
Principle = as in rule
I live by good principles, i.e. rules.
principal = as in ‘pal’ of a principal
I have a pal of a principal.
cspan has today’s Leahy hearing with Abu on now…
With regard to the youngish lawyer, would it have been appropriate for Fitzgerald to have asked, given his answers about associations with defendant and witnesses, if he had discussed his jury service notice with his fiance and boss, and about the implications of such service?
Because, if someone wanted a hung jury, he’d be the one with the most motivation to do it (personal advancement).
Well, my answer was late as usual. Too slow typing I guess.
‘Case you haven’t got to it, the opposite of ‘former’ is ‘latter’.
As a filthy foreigner, from a land where voir dire extends to a single question — “Can you give a fair hearing to both the Crown and the defence?” — I wince at the process of jury selection, particularly in a city like DC that’s divided between a small, mainly-white political class and a large, mainly non-white population that hates Bush.
It appears that Bush and Cheney have guaranteed Scooter a more favourable jury, simply by ensuring that at least two-thirds of the pool is predisposed to think of them as lying bastards.
Hey Pach, great job today, thanks for applying yourself with great vigor to this task. Please tell David Schuster he has a Number One Fan on the Left Coast….
Have there been any Jimmy Jeff Gannon Guckert sightings or perhaps any agents from Talon News? (Perhaps Gucky might wish to serve as a juror!)
Re: seeing Fitz in person.
Once the jurors remaining in the pool all entered the court room at the end of the day, all eyes from the attorneys tables were cast to the rear of the courtroom, to the benches, where the jurors sat to get an update on the process from Judge Walton.
I was sitting on the prosecutor’s side of the room, opposite the jurors.
I was watching everyone in the room, as one of two journalists present. Twice I made dead on eye contact with Fitz. He sustained a look right back at me, or through me, whatever.
Some enchanted evening. . .
Ahem.
Anyway, I have no idea why he seemed to be looking right at me, more than once. Maybe he did not recognize me: he probably knows who all the other reporters are. Or maybe he was just blankly thinking and staring out. It’s not always easy to tell with him.
He tugs his ear sometimes when he’s thinking.
Interestingly, he neither avoided looking at the jurors nor did he try to do the smile and smarm from across the room. Jeffress is a kind of regular smirk and smile guy, always quietly chuckling to himself about something, and he was smiling at the jury pool. Wells, too, though I find his attempts at charm quite forced. Libby was facing them but looking slightly downward, not pushing eye contact, but not hiding his face. I thought perhaps he was trying to look humble, not pleading, not proud, and not so. . . immediate as potential direct eye contact might have come across.
Fitzy just comes across like a very straight arrow who is not unkind but definitely focused on his job at hand.
montag @ 88
All of that was covered.
TRex @ 72
Ha…just noticed this on the wires today. Apparently they dusted off trusty Rich Little for the White House Correspondent’s Dinner this year to avoid another “Colbert Incident”:
“Little said organizers of the event made it clear they don’t want a repeat of last year’s controversial appearance by Stephen Colbert, whose searing satire of President Bush and the White House press corps fell flat and apparently touched too many nerves.
“They got a lot of letters,” Little said Tuesday. “I won’t even mention the word ‘Iraq.’”
Little, who hasn’t been to the White House since he was a favorite of the Reagan administration, said he’ll stick with his usual schtick — the impersonations of the past six presidents.
“They don’t want anyone knocking the president. He’s really over the coals right now, and he’s worried about his legacy,” added Little, a longtime Las Vegas resident.”
Preznit Boosh can’t even handle a comedian. What a weasel.
Pach, how have the last three days altered any earlier opinions you had wrt the trial?
I had one of those eye contact moments at a Dylan concert many years ago, the memory still makes me tingle!
ccmask @
97
Not at all, really. I can’t think of anything.
Pach stated: “Today, one juror admitted the possibility after sustained questioning by Ted Wells that strong feelings about the Vice President could, in theory, at least subconsciously make it difficult to render a fully impartial judgment of testimony by Cheney if it were contradicted by someone else’s testimony. She was then excused for cause, after much sidebar discussion. Whuh? Subconscious motivations are, by definition, unavailable to the conscious mind. If a potential juror admits that she may hypothetically be influenced by operations of her mind outside of her direct awareness, she is merely being honest and self-aware.”
Sonoma Rus @
39
There is no subconcious. Something is either concious or unconcious. I think that’s what Pach is intending, but wanted to understand if that’s what he is saying. If the potential juror is aware enough to admit that she could be biased, even hypothetically, would indicate that thought is now a “concious” one. Otoh, if it’s “unavailable to the concious mind” it is, in fact, unconcious. No inbetween.
That doesn’t change the overall point of your post, this sounds like a biased jury selection. The two examples you cite are egregious and very questionable.
lf @
90
Thank you!
A little whacking from nuns mightn’t be too bad for the spirit, but too much could break a youngster or make him weird. I do hope Fitz received no more than the appropriate number of nun beatings to instill good and strong character.
Okay. What’s your gut feeling? Guilty or Not Guilty?
hackworth @ 102
Not all nuns are whacky.
ccmask @
103
Your Honor, I couldn’t make any judgment until I’ve heard all the evidence.
hackworth @ 102
Didn’t bother me nun…
Pachacutec, thanks very much for your hard work and insights. Earlier you commented about the self-aware prospective juror who was struck. I had planned to ask you for further thoughts; thanks. Still, I’d read more on the subject of what this means for the jury composition if you wanted to revisit it once voir dire is over.
TRex is upstairs, but I’ll stick around a little while long for those with questions.
Others feel free to join the snark!
Diane @ 98
I had one, sort of, thirty years ago. At a Weather Report concert in a pretty small venue, Jaco Pastorius was sneaking in all sorts of rock `n roll licks into the bass lines of one of the tunes, and I was chuckling to myself about how clever he was doing it, and he kept looking at me with a “wtf is this guy laughing at me” look….
Never gonna get the chance to tell him I was really enjoying what he was doing….
bonkers @ 96
True, I have an Esq. after my name. And it might be that those with Esq. after their name have more than ONE criminal (or even civil) trial upon which their judgments are based. Just a thought, but it could be.
I have consistently written that in my experience criminal law, rules, regs, and procedure favor the prosecution, and I don’t care who the defendant is or why they are on trial; and that goes for any alleged “leeway” that you or anyone else thinks the judge is giving the defense in voir dire. Your basically indicting the legal system based on one aspect of a trial in one case. And, although I think the system greatly disfavors defendants, and that it does so without prejudice. I’m not going to retell the jabberwocky defense episode of News Radio, other than to say that it doesn’t exist.
That being said – if you want to believe our legal system is rigged against the poor and/or minorities or anyone or anything else, your way late to the game if you believe it is who gets to be the judge – at least according to some who have been railing against the alleged inequalities in our legal system for some time now. You need to check out Critical Legal Studies, also known as CLS, which basically posits that American jurisprudence is solely intended to benefit the white “ruling” class. It’s so Marxist I get chills thinking about it (not really, but it does bring back fun memories of law school*).
____________________________________
Yes, one of those leading lights of CLS mentioned in the Wikipedia article was a first year of law school professor of mine , though I’m not gonna tell which one.
I would have to admit, consciously or unsonsciously, even my Id hates all things Bush.
Sitting in the waiting room waiting for my mom to get out of surgery today, my father and I debated (argued is more like it) the Bush adm. He watches way too much Fox News & still believes Saddam was involved in 9/11.
We haven’t had such a match since Watergate.
By the way, Colbert just called O’Really a sexual predator.
rb at 100 examples you cite are egregious…
You rang?
Off to work kiddos.
I’m still trying to figure out how Libby is going to make his “memory” defense work without admitting that he betrayed Plame to begin with. I mean, if your whole defense is that you TOTALLY forgot you talked about her to JudyJudyJudy, aren’t you pretty much admitting that you did, in fact, talk about her?
ccmask, my thanks for your hug and well wishes for my mom was EPU’d a few threads ago – just wanted to say thanks again.
Frank Probst @ 114
yep.
Diane @ 112
My dear father passed away last year. I am happy to submit that he and I shared the same politics. I feel for people with republican parents. It must be terribly sad to see a loved one be so lost.
O’Really is a sexual predator – of the soapy loofah telephone talker type stalker.
EPU @ 111 – great analogy, the courtroom is like Vegas, odds are with the house.
Pach-totally loving this work you have done. Thank you so much. I do think it is history.
It was the best of times. It was the worst of times. Teh Knitting.
Frank Probst @ 114
Though the case will not litigate on Plame’s status or the leak, Wells and Jeffress are very careful not to allow anything to be said, implied or inferred that she was “covert.”
Potential jurors with any connection to the handling of classified material or the CIA get a thorough scrubbing behind the ears on these issues, and one potential juror was stricken who works at the CIA.
If in the future Libby is ever charged with anything related to the leak itself, the anticipated defense will be that her status was not in fact covert.
For the purposes of this trial, it seems Fitzy is presenting to the jury the following narrative:
Libby thought, when he testified to investigators, that he had outed an agent whose status as an agent was protected (state of mind). Since he believed this, he believed that admitting to this action would place his job at risk, so he lied to investigators (motive).
Fitz is not presenting a theory of the case that Libby was lying to protect Cheney or anyone else, or acting at anyone’s direction or behest. That does not mean that Fitzy won’t try to get testimony of witnesses, such as Cheney, to add more to his understanding of what happened, but I think his position now is the curent explanation is the only one the current status of the facts will support.
Still, he wants more facts to complete his investigation, and since he argues Libby has lied, from his point of view, the investigation cannot yet be complete because he needs Libby’s truthful testimony.
Hackworth, the sad part is my dad used to be a Dem. The only time he ever slapped me was due to an FU I flung at him during Watergate, he always thought Nixon was just sticking up for his guys. Just last week I was still trying to get him to see the bigger picture of a democracy with a president who feels he is above the law. Too bad we are reliving that era all these years later, even down to the war.
Rich Little! He hasn’t been funny since platform shoes were in style (the first time).
Regarding nun-whooping, Oliphant had a great cartoon where a linebacker-sized sister held a small child by the scruff of the neck in one hand, a ruler in the other. The caption read, “Now, young Master Gibson, what do you say when a priest or a policeman asks you who killed the Christ and started all the wars?”
Pach -
It may be hard to assess from your first, short exposure to them in the courtroom, but did you get any sense of the relative state of exhaustion (or not) of the attorneys, their team members, and the judge today? [Body language at the tables, energy levels, expression on Judge Walton’s face by the close of the day, and so on.]
You’ve really done Jane & FDL proud this week.
Pach -
Thank you so much for your reporting and your fascinating insights. We’re lucky to be getting a birds’ eye view of one of the most important trials of our time.
pow wow @ 123
They seem fresh, focused. But they live for this stuff. No matter how fried they may be, they’re on when they’re in court, at this level of professional play.
But we’re early in the process, anyway. They’re not acting. They’re ready, pumped, and opening statements will be pretty electric for them. Kickoff!
knuckledragger @ 122
That’s a hoot! Thanks for sharing that.
Diane, too bad, indeed. John Dean’s book is entitled Worse Than Watergate. I concur.
Today’s hearings with Berto, the info about GITMO people being up for the death penalty based on coerced testimony and all, and the jury selection for Soulman Brother are a nice bit of synchronicity. Or someting.
Pach, do you recall the discussion in previous days’ threads about the struggle for “alpha” status that may be going on? Particularly, a mention was made that in the O.J. trial, Judge Ito lost control of his courtroom to the defense attorneys, which left the jurors siding with the alpha critters at the defense table. Do you have any thoughts/sense, having reached this point, whether the dynamics in this courtroom may have the potential to play out that drama? Walton does seem to be giving more latitude to the defense.
I’d be doing this much on this story anyway, but I’m also doing it for Jane. I can’t be in LA to take care of her, but I know this is also what she wants, this trial to get the best coverage we can give it. It’s been her dream, and I’m doing what I can to hold up my end, for her. She asked me to do this voir dire, and what could I say?
We’ve become quite close, actually, Jane and I.
One last thing, when he was eyeballing you, maybe Fitz was trying to imagine the boa?
oregondave @ 128
Walton is giving a little room for the defense at this stage, but he’s mostly ruled against them on stuff they really wanted, big stuff. This doesn’t feel like anything but Reggie Walton’s courtroom to me, but we’ll really see it during the trial when the objections start flying.
bg @ 130
Actually, I wanted to shout, “Let’s go, Mets!”. . .but I knew Walton would bust my ass from here to Richmond.
Gawd,
Ito had celebrity goo goo eyes so bad he even fawned over Kato Kaelin.
This is very, very poor taste (which never stopped me before):
What were Ron Goldman’s last words?
“Here’s your fucking sunglasses.”
Hey pow wow
Any sign of Fitzgerald’s response to Dow/AP yet?
So I guess a Merry Fitzmas banner unfolding in the back of the courtroom would be uncouth.
Pachacutec @ 131
Glad to read that.
Thanks again, Pach. This is totally over the top, Jane has been done proud!
Peace out.
Ok gang, I’m off to bed.
Catch you tomorrow! Thanks for your questions. You’ve helped me get out some thoughts that I wanted to get out but which did not fit in my main post.
Wonder why comments are duplicating???
Hackworth at 117 – Condolences on your loss. Does your screen name honor your father?
My mom has been gone for 11 years, but after she voted for Bill in 92 and also remarked that Teddy Kennedy was a very good man, I told her that in reality she was no longer a Republican. She didn’t disagree.
Also she opposed Viet Nam from the first advisor, always wondering if the US had forgotten about the French and Dien Bien Phu.
Was your dad in Viet Nam?
seems pretty sad that libby is getting a fair trial, but so few others do.
still doubt this trial really happens, they just can’t afford for the public to know what they have done. or, if they don’t care, we are in deep
Not that I’ve seen, Jeff. It’s not on the Special Counsel’s website (which is fairly outdated now as a whole, anyway), nor yet unearthed by cboldt as far as I know.
I find it potentially significant that so far there is no blaring headline from the WSJ/AP about “Special Prosecutor declares leak investigation over” [or something] or a ‘told you so’ WSJ editorial spitting more nails in the government’s general direction. On the contrary, the sense of the government’s approach to the Libby prosecution that Pachacutec is absorbing from his coverage, as he describes it in #120 above, makes it sound very much like the grand jury investigation remains an ongoing concern.
But, I’ll wait to read the government’s response, if and when it hits the blogosphere.
What you are doing is invaluable. Thank you.
I’ll be back tomorrow!
Thanks, pow wow.
great stuff, Pach. I’m not able to follow the live-blogging in real time, but your daily wrap-ups are very helpful and insightful.
Fitzmas @ 2
Pach, did you witness this PSYOPs battle being waged in the Men’s Room between opposing counsel?
Good one!
Rayne @
80
That’s true, and well taken.
Pachacutec @
95
Ah, I see. A black woman working for the CIA in an area that had nothing to do with pre-war intelligence is bounced, but a smooth-talking white lawyer who has direct connections to defense witnesses and the lawyers for the defense is retained….
It’s all clear now. :)
Pachacutec @
70
How do you prove a case on the war? To do it, you’d need about a year to make your case. And you’d need access to a whole bunch of classified documents, which would just invite graymail.
Pachacutec @
120
Are you saying that based on something you’ve seen or heard this week, Pach? BC I think there is a good chance Fitz will make just this argument–that Cheney ordered Libby to leak to Judy, and by inventing the Russert story, he hid the fact that he had leaked, on Cheney’s orders.
emptywheel:
This is based entirely on a statement in argument away from any potential jurors made by Wells. This was an argument over the admissible lines of questioning for voir dire.
Wells argued that it is clear, from Fitz’s filings, the the government intends to argue that the issue of classified status and whether or not Plame was “covert” enters into the trial, not by way of direct adjudication, but by way of the government’s argument about the motivation and state of mind for Scooter to engage in alleged perjury and false statements.
Accordingly, I should make clear I’m reporting Wells’ spoken inferences about Fitz’s intent regarding the case. It may well be he was floating a balloon to see if Fitz would comment one way or another by way of his continuing arguments about status, and I just don’t have in my notes or in my recollection any clear indication that Fitz corroborated this. He may have, through some nuance, but if he did, it escaped me.
I should also add that Wells only represented the positive part of the statement I made above, not the negative. By that I mean, he represented what he stated Fitz’s clear line of argument will be, not what it will not be. He made no comment, that is to say, about any possible motivation relating to cover up or being a firewall or acting upon the instructions of Cheney or the like.
In other words, perfect to be a commodity if he gets what he deserves and goes to a real jail.
Ugh.
Sorry, I really hate prison rape jokes, and the lefty in me really longs for the day we reform our criminal justice policies and our prison systems.
Sorry for the joke Pach, but I have no respect for any members of an administration that thinks torture is rational policy and that only the chosen few (like Libby) deserve a fair trial while anyone they choose can rot in secret prisons or Gitmo without charges.
Perhaps if the United States didn’t have a higher percentage of its population in prison than any country on earth, prison rape wouldn’t be the issue that it is. And as far as Libby goes it couldn’t happen to a nicer guy unless you could actually find someone interested in Cheney. I also find the idea of Libby and Judy Miller sharing a cell for a couple decades amusing as well, maybe with Rover Boy tossed in for the threesomes.
bonkers @
73
When Colbert dies and goes to Heaven, Bill Hicks and Lenny Bruce will be waiting for him with The Mother Of All Beer Bongs, pre-loaded with the beverage of his choice.
Dr. Thompson might be there as well, with some fine Bolivian Marching Powder.
emptywheel @
149
I sure hope Fitzy’s people are reading this!
I guess I should add also that even though I consider myself a lefty as well, there is something attractive to me about the idea of members of the Bu$h Crime Family maybe getting some massive doses of their own medicine someday.
pseudonymous in nc @
91
Don’t you mean to NOT think of them as lying bastards.’?
Actually, in light of the fact that no nukes were found in Iraq despite all the Administration officials claiming they were there, it’s now obvious that a potential juror is showing bias if they say they DON’T think the administration officials are all lying bastards.
I mean, if it’s an established fact and someone still denies they’re liars…
Faith-based justice?
FWIW, I think Ito did OK in the OJ trial.
It was one of those rare trials where the prosecution got out-lawyered and (probably) out-spent.
The defense got Ito to move the line a bit on what’s relevant-admissible vs. what’s collateral-inadmissible. So some things got in that would ordinarily be kept out, and it took longer.
The punditry was outraged because prosecutors’ motions and objections are typically granted, with the result that most (non-white-collar) trials are short and ‘sweet’.
(I know that judges will give some close questions to the defense because the DA can’t appeal, but don’t tell me that defense attorneys regularly control the court rooms. The conviction rate is high, and the reversal rate is low.)
PS: Amen re prison rape is not a laughing matter.
Watson@159
In an ideal world very few innocent people would ever have to defend themselves from criminal charges. The burden on normal (non-Libby, likely to be pardoned whatever happens) people facing the federal government on criminal charges is extremely onerous. I know from personal experience, it took me about 11 years to win my case and caused me to decide I didn’t even want to live in the United States of Greed anymore. Now I look back on the hard times of the trial etc. as the doorway that helped me discover a better place in the world – where I now have second generation grandchildren.
I guess it’s fair if you call only being able to choose from the 30% of the American people fair! Which leaves Fundamentalist, Lobbyist and Liars to chose from for the jury seats!
Regarding the difference of opinions yesterday about whether jury selection would have to begin again from scratch, it looks like The American Thinker is once again doing her thinking outside of the reality-based realm:
Walton needs six more jurors to fill the jury pool but has only a handful available in the original pool. He ordered 10 jurors from an alternate pool to come to court on Monday in case they run out.
link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..leak_trial
[Somewhat OT from Libby]
Yeah, Exile.
I’m a big believer in our fact- and reason- based evidentiary system. But given the nature of our society, it’s hard to say that overall we have a ‘justice system’.
The correlation between discrimination and poverty, between poverty and violent crime/drug sales, and between violent crime/drug sales and incarceration has an undeniably disparate impact on poor people generally, and particularly people of color.
Lighter-skinned people are not more honest (and they certainly use their share of illegal drugs), but they are more likely to have or be entrusted with significant financial assets. They commit most fraud, bribery, embezzlement, gambling, price-fixing and tax evasion — crimes for which they are unlikely to be imprisoned.
And you wouldn’t know it from conservatives’ constant complaints, but the trial and appellate benches are dominated by right-wing appointees.
Most prosecutions aren’t politically motivated (which I’m guessing is what you experienced), but when they are, the bias is rarely liberal.
But don’t let me spoil our party. Go Fitz!
obsessed @ 163
She has this wrong. It is not an alternate pool. It is from the same pool of 100 originally set for this case, but Judge Walton only required 60 of those to spend all week in the funnel of the selection process, hoping to find all the juros he needed from that number available.
He bet wrong.
Watson:
You’re right and I second the motion – Go Fitz!
Pachacutec @
151
Ah, in that case I would wait to see what Fitz does. He has harped on Cheney’s involvement in filings for over a year. And at the very least, intends to argue that Libby couldn’t have forgotten his actions because Cheney was involved closely in them. The question of whether that amounts to being a firewall is one of degrees, I think. But he will use Cheney’s actions as evidence and possible as motivation.