
During a trial, the lawyers for each side present evidence to prove their version of what happened. There is some confusion in the public mind about what constitutes “evidence,” so I thought I would hit on some of the bigger categories of evidence and tell you a few rules about how that evidence may be admitted into a trial and limitiations on it’s use.
This post, and Part II to come, are BY NO MEANS EXHAUSTIVE OR CONCLUSIVE on the topic (that would take a 6 credit, two semester course), but is meant to be rough guide to some things that might come up during Fitzmas and might otherwise be confusing.
First and Foremost: Testimony is Evidence
One of my favorite things, and I heard this come out of opposing counsel’s mouth in a deposition the other day when a witness testified that a certain event had occurred and this lawyer, who was either being disingenuous or has never read the Federal Rules of Evidence, said “Yes, but what evidence do you have that [the event] occurred?” and I thought to myself, “You wanker, his testimony is evidence.”
Naturally, I noted my objection for the record.
It is a cheap stunt meant to intimidate the witness and make them doubt their own testimony. Bullshit tactics like that really frost me and lower the tone of the entire process. They are basically unfair questions.
So, today we are going to start with SOME of the Federal Rules of Evidence as they pertain to witnesses. (Except for Hearsay and its exceptions which will be its own separate post — I think Hearsay is going to be a big issue in this case.)
Generally, under Rule 601, “every person is competent to be a witness, except as otherwise provided in these rules.” You don’t have to be a citizen, don’t have to be in this country legally, don’t have to be eligible to vote, can be a convicted felon, etc. etc.
However, under Rule 602, you are only competent to testify as matters upon which you have personal knowledge. As a practical matter, that’s not always how courts rule. Many times they allow a witness to testify as to the witness’s belief.
When I prep a witness to testify, I explain the difference between knowledge and belief thusly: You KNOW what you have learned from your five senses, everything else you think you “know” is merely a dearly held belief. For example, if I walk outside and raindrops fall on me and I feel them, if I see the raindrops, if I hear them land on surfaces, if I smell the rain smell, if I open my mouth and taste the drop on my tongue, by each or any of these ways, I “know” it is raining. However, if I am in a windowless room and I see people entering this room wearing wet raincoats and shaking off umbrellas and talking about how it is pouring outside, I may verily believe it to be raining, but I don’t actually “know” that it is raining.
It may seem like hairsplitting to you, but it is actually hugely important in determining whether a witness’s testimony as to a given “fact” is actually competent.
Under Rule 701, a lay witness, that is a regular fact witness, may not give testimony in the form of opinion except in those circumstances where the testimony is “(a) rationally based on the perception of the witness, (b) helpful to a clear understanding of the witness’s testimony or the determination of the fact at issue, and (c) not based on scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge…”.
Courts have held that a lay witness can testify that a person appeared drunk, if they testified to the things they saw or heard, etc., that lead the witness to that belief. Such as, “I saw the defendant consume 5 glasses of scotch within a two hour period during the Christmas party, I saw him try to grope his boss’s secretary while his boss was scowling, I heard his speech slurred, I saw him weave when he walked, and he appeared drunk to me.”
Here are some other examples: Lay persons who are not handwriting experts are nonetheless permitted to ID handwriting if they have first testified to sufficient familiarity with the handwriting in question to make it likely that the testimony is probative. Lay witnesses have also been permitted to give opinion testimony that, based on laying out a foundation of things seen, heard, etc., the person they are testifying about was angry, sad, or similar things which obviously they cannot “know” because who among us can read another’s mind? (I meant that to a legal certainty. Littleprop regularly freaks me, and others, out with her ability to tell what others are thinking. Courts do not yet recognize my offspring’s psychic powers as competent testimony. So, any readers with similar psychic abilities, please understand, I’m not dissing you .)
Expert testimony is a special category of testimony. We know that Irving wanted to introduce expert testimony for his “memory defense” and was turned down by Judge Walton. This is interesting in that Judge Walton essentially found that memory issues of the sort Irving is complaining of are common enough to qualify for the kind of lay opinion testimony described above.
Anyway, Rule 702 governs testimony by experts and says that if “scientific, technical or other specialized knowledge will assist the trier of fact to understand the evidence or determine a fact in issue,” then you can use an expert to educate the jury (almost like testimony = a tutorial on a narrow subject) or to render an opinion. Originally, long, long ago, experts were limited to the tutorial role, but later the law and practice evolved to allow them to render opinions. My belief based on the lines of case law I have read, is that this evolved to speed up trials, otherwise known as judicial economy. That’s one humble lawyer’s opinion, others may differ.
Under Rule 702, the witness may offer an opinion IF the following criteria are met: “(1) the testimony is based upon sufficient facts and data {in other words you can’t make shit up just because you have a Ph.D.}, (2) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods, {no junk science} and (3) the witness has applied the principles and methods reliably to the case. This last is where the memory expert Irving wanted to use seemed to go astray if I interpret the public reports correctly.
An expert may not give an opinion that determines the ultimate issue in the case, consequently, Team Irving would not be permitted to offer an expert to testify that Scooter is incapable of lying and therefore could not legally have committed the crime charged.
Usually, you also cannot offer expert opinion on a question of law, the idea being that the judge is the law expert in the room, but there are exceptions to that especially with arcane minutiae of law. A friend of mine testified as an Election Law expert in a federal civil rights case that caused the judge to rule that the way NYS selects its candidates for state Supreme Court judge is unconstitutional. Experts are allowed to offer opinions based upon a hypothetical set of facts posed by the questioner.
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Fitz!
Fitzer!
Fitzest! And Looseheadprop!
Hotflash — you are cracking me up! ;-)
Would it be considered evidence that Cheney was lying, if someone testified he was moving his lips?
WHAT!?? Nobody told ME this!! Eight-plus years of graduate school, and NOW you tell me I can’t just make shit up? Crap. I wasted the best part of a decade! Well, at least it was the 80’s.
Trials and investigations!
Welcome back Christy. The Lake just wasn’t the same w/o you
I understand that Cheney will testify via video tape for Libby- couldn’t Fitz have insisted that he appear in person? Shouldn’t he have? Is it live video? Anyone know?
I continue to feel that Fitz is way too considerate of the special problems of criminals in the White House.
lhp at 7 — Thanks much — but you guys did such an awesome job subbing for me, I never had to worry for a minute. :) It is awfully nice to be home, though. Am trying to figure out my trial coverage schedule in and around what The Peanut needs…not an easy task, let me tell you. (Think the journalists in the media room would mind a cute 3 year old tagging along if she colors quietly? *g* Yeah, I thought so, too…)
rw at 8 — that’s pretty standard practice when you have security considerations at the level that you would need to have them for Cheney to testify in person. The Judge makes that determination as to what is appropriate, not Fitz — so whatever beef you have would be with Judge Walton, because his decision on that would have likely been made on motion from Cheney’s counsel or his office, or from the Secret Service on their behalf.
My guess is that they will do the testimony via videotape with both sides asking questions until the issues are exhausted. I can’t imagine them doing live video testimony, just because tech glitches could wreak havoc on the court schedule (and you plan for worst case scenario on stuff like this because, unlike the Bush Administration, court personnel are smart enough to know that the worst case generally happens when pressure is high). I haven’t seen an order on Cheney’s testimony as yet — but then I just got home again yesterday evening — if anyone has a link or a copy to the order, please share if you would.
old gold at 5 — Well, that would be evidence that I’d consider good — but I think the Federal Rules of Evidence require more than the psychic hunch (as LHP makes clear above…lol).
note to mod – margins on the home page are busted
[Mod Note; thanks for the heads up. Refresh your screen and it should be fixed. FWIW,we’re blaming Scooter.]
Thank you for your post, and for keeping all of us infomed. I can’t help myself, though. I have a request . . .
Except for Hearsay and it’s exceptions which will be it’s own separate post
Please take out those possessive apostrophes. Please?
rwcole @ 8
I think that comes from the entirely natural urge to watch the sucker squirm. Apart from that, is the witness in videotaped testimony allowed to have counsel advising him during the testimony
Redd–Thanks- and welcome home!
lhp,
What a pleasure, for this non-lawyer, to read such clear, concise non-jargonny explanations of legal issues. Props to you and Christy both.
hitchhiker at 14 — Got them. Thanks — that’s what I get for doing a quick copyedit while also giving The Peanut a bath this morning. Ooops…really appreciate the heads up.
rwcole @ 8
NO! Fitz is being considerate of the public veiwing from the gallery. I have been to evetns where presidents and ex-presidents are present. Everyone has to presubmit background info and you must have a particular letter or other document that they send to you in order to be atmitted (plus photo ID on the day).
This would mean either that only those with W/H press passes (they are pre-vetted) would be in the room, or that memebers of the public would have to somehow get prescreened a week or two before.
It would be impossible to just have memebers of the public who show up on the day int the courtroom.
This is being done for the convenience of the publlic a (and the courthouse security folks) not for the conveneince of the WH.
The WH would probabaly LOVE LOVE LOVE a big distracting hullaballoo
This reminds me of Robert Heinlein’s concept of the “Fair Witness”, which I always thought was interesting. Example: the question “is that house blue?” could only be answered in the affirmative if the Fair Witness had viewed it from all sides, otherwise the answer might be something like “the south and east sides of that house are blue”. The “Fair Witness” was a trained professional impartial/objective observer whose testimony was indisputable.
hitchhiker @ 13
I can’t, but the mods may be able to
hitchhiker @
14
Your honor, I saw the typos, I read the fine legal analysis, I caught the subtle snark, but I didn’t actually see the fingers on the keyboard. Nevertheless, in my lay opinion, I believe that this is indeed the work of looseheadprop.
And it’s damn good work, IMHO.
Did I get that right, LHProf?
another great, informative post – thanks lhp.
(minor type: EXAUSTIVE is missing an “h”)
EPU’d:
punaise @ 123
Helpless Dancer @ 14
Only to the same extent as a witness on the stand, to consult re: matters of privledge.
Attorney/client privledge
Doctor/patient privledge
Spousal privledge
etc
Oh yeah, and the fifth ammendment privledge agaisnt self incrimination. Hee hee
Dumb question: What does FWIW mean?
Oh Fitzmas Glee
Oh Fitzmas Glee
Are targets rearranging?
Peterr @ 21
Fell over laughing. That’s perfect!
ccmask @ 25
For what it’s worth
Ah, thanks lhp.
1,406 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen looseheadprop and the Firepup Patriots:
Since this case is about perjury, obstruction and conspiracy and the actions alleged are rhetorical as opposed to physical, it seems that the rules of evidence and the restrictions on hearsay make the mountain Fits hasta climb VERY steep indeed. I am concerned that witnesses like Judy Miller who have shown a genetic predisposition to shade the truth will be able to testify that Scooter didn’t say something and Fitz will be hamstrung to disprove a negative. What will Fitz’s strategy be with regard to Ms. Miller, will he hafta impeach her credibility by exposin’ previous untruths in deposition or Grand Jury statements or is he limited to tryin’ ta undermine the logic of her testimony based on context?
I’m afraid that even Fitz is gunna have a hard time discrediting the “she says he didn’t say that they said…” bullshit that’s gunna get dropped on the jury by these lyin’ bastards.
KEEP THE FAITH, IF THE LAW DON’T GET ‘EM GOD IS STILL WAITIN FOR ‘EM!!!
LHP –
Could you please clarify what you meant to say in the excerpt from the next to last paragraph of your post from which I quoted? Thank you very much for your help.
is it asking too much for Rule 707 to be something really funny?
looseheadprop @ 24
Or executive privledge. If Cheney exerts executive privledge is that a trial stopper(at until appealed)or can the judge compel a response?
TESTIMONY IS EVIDENCE!
Thank you!!!
You are so right about the misconceptions people have about this. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen even educated people who don’t know this. “I was there when he did it… I know I don’t have any evidence, but I saw it… I wish I’d videotaped it…”
People will say something like that, and I have to tell them, “Testify! Your testimony IS evidence!”
It seems the public–even the educated ones–think that “evidence” has to be something that is contained in a sealed bag or a sealed manila envelope. Testimony IS evidence!
NorskeFlamethrower @ 29
If Judy Miller contradicts her prior testimony, Fitz can offer that tstimony to impeah her. He can also at that time, move to have her declared a hostile witness at which point he can ask her cross axamination type questions instead of the apen ended questions (not suggetsing their own answer) that are normally required on direct examinaiton.
She would be insane to testify contrary to her original testimony. Go back and read the excerpt from Marcy’s book a couple of threads back. It exactly frames this for you
rwcole @
9
it’s Memo-wrecks.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 30
I can testify that I saw you stab Santa Claus with a bowie knife sixteen time. I can testify that I saw him immediatley fall to the ground. I can testify that right after he fell that I felt his pulse and he didin’t have one.
I cannot competently testify that you are guilty of murder. That is the ultimate issue in the case and only the trier of fact made determine that
punaise @ 32
There is no Rule 707. I should work on that. I have a colleague on the Federal Rules advisory committee. He could have some fun with that*g*
Sing we now of Fitzmas,
Fitzmas, sing we now.
Scooter’s in the dock now,
Finally we hear the truth.
Cheney sings for Fitzmas,
one step to impeach.
The Shrub becomes the Fitz log,
burning bright at last.
Helpless Dancer @ 33
Zig alert.
Except, he is testifying voluntarily. Why volunteer and then clam up? It’s all very odd
AirportCat @
6
I say, you should go for it anyway. Most of us can’t tell the difference
:-)
Thanks for the educational. informative post
re: potential mean-spirited rotund wintness
If character is testified to as a comparison of one to similar others, is that opinion considered genuine/valid if the witness is otherwise regarded a “lyin’ sack o’ shit”?
looseheadprop @
37
“An expert may not give an opinion give an opinion…”
Which is it?
[Mod Note; thanks SPCPA, the expert now gives only one opinion.]
looseheadprop @ 40
This brings up another question. How often are strategic moves made in witness choices that would affect other cases by establishing testimony or precedent?
If a VP wants to establish the authority to claim executive privelege, wouldn’t this be a good way to do it?
Hehe…the fun is just beginning:
Did you take Santa’s pulse before you saw him stabbed?
Uh, no.
Can you prove that he was alive before he was stabbed?
Well, he was moving around and breathing, and the like.
Did you hold a mirror to check if it fogged as he exhaled?
No sir.
Are you telling the court that you are just assuming he was breathing?
I guess so.
Did you know that zombies do not breathe?
Err..
Might Santa be one of the Undead?
I’m sure he is dead, now.
Are you sure he wasn’t dead before?
I’m a bit confused, now that you mention it.
As much as it hurts to say this – and it does flat out hurt – the VP is not on trial. The Spec. Counsel is a part of the Exec Branch and the VP is nominal second, actual prime, of that Branch right now. The VP is not a well beloved figure and is a security risk. The VP’s position is one that requires respect, not just from the lawyers involved but from the court – which is dealing with the #2 guy of a co-equal branch of govt.
Of course accomodations will be made and they should be made. The fact that someone truly despicable is the VP doesn’t mean that the fundamental aspects of protecting the VP from harm and respecting the co-equal branches and their highest representatives, or respecting a superior officer within the branch that the Spec Couns is serving — those things don’t drop off the priority list just bc the VP is Cheney.
It would be nice, but it would be wrong.
looseheadprop @ 38
There’s been considerable repositioning reported on (pending) Rule 69
rumi @ 41
Character testimnoy is allowed in fed court but is usally of limited utilty to the defense(except in the sentencing hearing). You can have witnesses testify that a person is patient and kind and good etc. It does not negate the likelyhood that he had the requisit mens rea (culpable state of mind) to do the crime.
Actually in this case, I expect to see character and habit evidence used as sword rather than a shield. I expect Fitx will try to introduce all the streel trap mind and Scooter writes everything down in notebooks testimony.
rumi @ 43
No, this would be the dumbest way to try. The best way to do it would be to refuse to respond to a subpeona
rumi @ 47
not to be confused with the yin-yang rule.
Thanks for the tutorial. Very helpful in understanding the coverage of the trial.
jeffreyw @ 45
My point exactly!
LHP – thanks for your informative posts – they are treasures!
Just a little nitpick – since ‘privilege’ is a word that will be used a lot in our discussions, I wish the word would get spelled correctly (except for the inevitable typos to which we are all prone (-: ). I have seen several commenters using the word, and with three different spellings – none of which were the correct one – LOL!
Sorry – just another prof here who has corrected too many papers and theses. )-:
A little off-topic. The Las Vegas Sun is reporting that the Bushies are pitching out the US Attorney for Nevada.
No explanation, and no apparent indication of wrongdoing.
looseheadprop @ 49
That might be too broad to be useful as a basis in the future.
I was thinking of possibly establishing the ability to pick and choose what is answered under oath based on specific uses of various privelege. That would be a handy superpower to have.
lhp…We’re learning so much from you here. Thank you, thank you.
looseheadprop-39
Just to screw things up? I get the impression that this administration is trying to run the clock out. Cheney is taking a considerable risk just by agreeing to appear. I hope his arrogance might lead him to say something that truly hurts. If he can be goaded into something truly revealing, it could collapse what little remains of the bush legacy
I share your pleasure that someone may actually be held to account for what was done to Valerie Plame Wilson, and I understand why you are angry about this matter, both on its own merits and as a symbol of all of the abuse of power that has been carried out by the authoritarian bullies in this administration. But calling Libby “Irving” doesn’t sit well with me. It reminds me too much of how annoyed I am when Republicans refer to the “Democrat Party” etc.
KathieinMN @
53
Oops – “none of which *was* ….”
(she says, nitpicking her own self)
So, we are expecting what for six weeks, exactly? Scooter has already said his piece under oath before the grand jury, so Fitz has to get someone or several someones to contradict him and back it up to a.) the satisfaction of the jury (facts) and b.) Judge Walton (law), is this right? Many of the others have already given testimony under oath.
So, if anyone changes their testimony now, they perjure themselves. Also, many of these folks have made public statements, all the newspaper guys and many of the public figures, so even if they are not perjuring themselves, they will be loosing credibilty if they contradict themselves.
Also, if Cheney backs Scooter up, then either both are right or both are perjurers or the veep is very good at walking a tightrope that he can’t see.
Where will the surprises come from, do you think?. How much will come from testimony that is already ‘in the can’ that we don’t yet know and how much will be new testimony?
What confuses me is that if Fitz has enough evidence to prove perjury already, and I’m pretty sure he must since this case is huge and he is careful, why do we still need a trial?
Is there an ace up Scooter’s sleeve, eg, Cheney will retroactively declare Scooter’s actions legal because he said so? That will make it Judge Walton’s decision as to whether or not the law was broken, do I have that right?
Or is it all a bluff about the evidence and we are waiting for someone to blink?
montag @ 54
Isn’t this like the third such case? Do we need to get this spotlighted?
OT, via atrios:
front page of the Miami Herald says “Bush’s Version of Iraq Ignores Facts”
KathieinMN @ 53
Bless you. AS you may have noticed, I can’t spell for shit. Strangely one of my sisters was a DailyNews citywide spelling bee champ. It is hard to believe she and I come from the same gene pool!
Helpless Dancer @ 56
Cheney’s been around the block a few times, and he’s testified in front of juries before (when he was in the midst of some of the court cases in which Halliburton was involved).
Given his continued public assertions of things which are demonstrably not true, he’s either a pathological liar or he can bring himself to a very convincing level of certainty. Either way, a jury may find him credible. It’s up to the prosecution to show inconsistencies in his testimony to break down that impression of credibility.
But, don’t expect Toad-In-The-Hole to be an easy nut to crack. Just because he may be even more wacko than Bush doesn’t mean he’s not clever. And, he’s going to be coached by Libby’s lawyers until the routine is down pat.
Fitzpatrick’s got his work cut out for him.
montag @ 54
This is getting weirder and weirder. There is also a lot of chatter going around that DOJ has not been funding new payroll at the USAO’s at their notmal levels. So, they are understaffed. Something similar happened at NYC DOI which used to have about 800 employees and is now down to a rumored 200. That’s one way to avoid embarassing public corruption revelations.
There was also a thing a couple weeks ago about the (Interior Secretary?) cabinet official who was trying to force her agencies IG to outsource his audits to firms picked by her.
This is unprecendented. They seem to be dismantling the whole freakin system!
HotFlash at 60
Because a trial is where you present all the evidence that you have amassed
egregious @ 61
Yes and Yes
link
Several fired U.S. Attorneys are mentioned in this article. Lam of CA, Iglesias of NM, Cummins of Arkansas.
Margot @ 68
Shoule we ask who’s next?
HotFlash @ 3
Your redundance is boring zzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!
small typo – When I prep a witness to testify, I explain the difference between knowledge and belief thusly: You KNOW what you have learned from you*r* five senses –add ‘r’ to you
[Mod Note; thanks, twolf. Corrected.]
montag @ 64
I heard a story around Foley Square, way back when Fitz inteviewed the President and Cheney at the WH. Supposedly, voices were raised and the shouting could be heard down the hall. The rumor’s originator, who was defenately in a position to know this fact, refused to ID the voices.
However, given PatFitz’s well deserved reputation for patience and sweet tempered demeanor, who do we supposed was the likely loud mouth? Hmmm.
Could it be a guy with so little self control nor respect for his own surroundings that he told a sitting senator to go fuck himself right on the Senate floor?
That’s my guess anyway.
Maybe Fitz willnot have such a tough time after all?
JF @ 69
Yes we should. And we should wonder what is tying all these together? And then we should spotlight till our fingers break.
looseheadprop @ 64
The news article mentions short staffing in the Las Vegas article.
The Interior Department deal is all of a piece with Rummy demanding that his own picks for legal staff be used by the DoD IG’s office.
I’ve said it before, so I’m probably sounding like an old record, but my sense of them, from the start, is that they figured they had eight years to undo seventy years of post-New Deal anti-cronyism, pro-populist government infrastructure and they’ve been at this task all along, whether it’s been reported or not.
They really do want to take government back to the Gilded Age, when Mark Hanna (Rove’s idol) was handing out cash on the Senate Floor, and government worked for the fatcats.
That said, I don’t know what’s up in Nevada–it could be that some of the stuff that came up late in the governor’s race was being investigated by the US Attorney’s office, because the local police were clearly politically compromised. Or, it could be something about which we know nothing yet.
JF,
Might well be Ohio.
wlgriffi @ 70
There is no redundancy. I am in no way in a catagory with Pat Fitzgerald. He is a catagory all his own. I’m just vying for JimComey’s job as president for life of the Pat Fitzgerald fan club. You know, in case Comey ever decides to let someone else have a term
When Leon Jaworski indicted the Watergate conspirators, I remember that Nixon was named an “unindicted co-conspirator.” My question is twofold: 1)Why 2) Does a VP get the same type of consideration.
Mary @
46
I agree with you in theory, but not in practice. The simple solution to the problem goes back to the old saying: If you can’t bring the mountain to Mohammed, then bring Mohammed to the mountain. Why not just have a field trip and take the whole trial (judge, jury, lawyers, and defendant) to a location of Cheney’s choice? Hell, they can do it right before the State of the Union address as far as I’m concerned.
twolf1 @ 71
So little time, so many typos.
That is one of my most frequent b/c spell check doesn’t pick it up.
Drives me nuts
If Cheney has to answer REAL questions he will blow it (ala Ken Lay), this personality type has never been asked a real question that they couldn’t jus lie to. The cognitive dissonance might cause aneurisms (or manifest itself as diversionary explosions in Iran! Yikes).
Margot @ 75
Isn’t Fitz still a US Attnorney?
looseheadprop @ 66
This same crew did something special with their “evidence” in the newsmedia too. They placed (claimed) evidence in one source and then referred back to it by other sources as verification. I see them doing the trial to establish legal claims for reference later.
JF @ 69
Don’t forget the one named Black in 2004 that was at the start of the Abramoff investigation. It might not fall under the PA2 act but he was demoted as he started to file requests for records/subpeonas
montag @ 74
You know something else that just occured to me? All USAO’s have to send statistical reports down to DOJ. Not just on overal investigations and prosecutions, but also by catagory and “return on investment” type analysis of specific initiatives. Like productiviy reports.
If you slah the staff levels in an office, there are fewer folks to do the cases and productivity goes down. Then you have an excuse to get rid of someone b/c they are not meeting last year’s numbers.
Circular logic? Yes. Way to created a smokescreen to fire anyone anytime and make them feel intimidated? yes
Never forget, Ambassador Wilson said that part of the motivation for outing Valerie was as warning to others who were trying to do the right thing as government employees instead of going along to get along.
Do we see a pattern here?
looseheadprop @ 71
Well, Bush has quite a temper, too, so maybe they were both tag-teaming the hired help. :)
If that is the case, Fitzgerald (I’ll get the name right, eventually :) ) will know how to pull that out, if necessary, if he’s already been through it once already.
Still, I think about Cheney in front of the cameras, and he’s very low-key, very self-assured and nearly unflappable. Like Bush, he’s got a public face and a private one that are very much at odds with each other, I think.
One way or another, it’s going to be interesting. :)
looseheadprop @ 72
I don’t think Cheney’s going to have a screaming shit fit on the stand, but I do think that Fitz will be able to make him visibly squirm. This is a man who is no longer used to having his authority questioned. A man who once told a sitting Senator to go fuck himself. A man who shot someone in the face and then hid from the media for several days. (Which, by the way, would seem to be “fair game” as a topic for assessing a witness’s credibility.) I think he’ll be able to hold it together for an hour or two, but Fitz will make him look awful by the end of it.
JF,
Yes, Fitz is still a U.S. Attorney. Rats.
I was thinking that it’s tied in to what dirty pols have been convicted and that many of them gave heavily to re-elect the president.
You may have heard of the rare coin investment scam in Ohio, where state officials invested workman’s comp money in rare coins, rare stamps, and the like. Stole money, too. Tom Noe went to prison for this.link
looseheadprop @
79
here’s another spell check proof typo: Courts have held that if a lay witness can testify that a person appeared drunk, if the*y* testified
Ann in AZ @ 77
I’m not sure I understood your question.
Do you mean why was Nixon and unindected co-conspirator. Easy answer, he was immune from prosecution for acts committed by the power of his office while in office.
Why are their unindicted co-conspirators? Sometimes they are John Does. You know there were othe conspirators, but you haven’t been able to ID them. Sometimes the Unindcted Co-conpsirator has an immunity deal or has had jeapardy attach in another case arising from the same facts and cannot be retried, yet we must explain his role in the conspiracy to the jury.(happens a lot with “spin off” cases)
Sometiems the prosecution believes that the unindictd co-conpsirator really is a memeber of the conspiracy, that person’s role must be explained to the jury in order for them to understand the case, but the prosecution either does not have enough Probale cause to indict this individual or the case against this individual is so weak he does not want to weaken the rest of his case by trying to prove up against the unindited co-conspirator
JF @ 81
Yes, Northern District of Illinois
montag @ 85
The VP’s request for the testimony interview with Fitzgerald to be videotaped with a FoxNews background for the set was questioned.
hitchhiker @ 14
Aha!! I’m not the only grammar stickler after all! Thanks, hitchhiker. Misued apostrophes are one of my major betes noir.
If the Libby trial doesn’t lead to ‘higher-ups’, it will be very disappointing. The view here is that Libby is far too meticulous to have not checked with his handler(s) before embarking on actions which could result in such enormous consequences.
rumi @ 83
Was he the guy in the Marianas Islands? That was so over the top
Margot @ 87
Yeah, Margot, I heard about that. That makes sense. My thinking was that if they could establish a pattern of firing other US Attorneys under whatever “reason” they had, they could fire Fitz, thereby having him removed from the Plame case, or at least discredited, right in time for the proceedings to begin.
No Exit @ 34
True, but the reliability of such evidence can vary tremendously. A witness may — consciously or not — impose his/her own interpretation. Classic example, a witness to an aircraft accident may tell you that “the engines were sputtering, loud one moment and quiet the next” when in fact all the physical evidence shows that the engines were developing full power — and screaming like a banshee — throughout the accident sequence. The witness heard a variation in engine noise because the aircraft was in a spin. It is necessary to separate the witness’s actual observation from his/her interpretation of the observation. FWIW (if anything).
So when do we get the prime on non-hearsay and exceptions to hearsay ;-p
….”the primeR on…..”
“From the San Diego Union-Tribune:
The Bush administration has quietly asked San Diego U.S. Attorney Carol Lam, best known for her high-profile prosecutions of politicians and corporate executives, to resign her post, a law enforcement official said.
Lam, a Bush appointee who took the helm in 2002, was targeted because of job performance issues – in particular that she failed to make smuggling and gun cases a top priority, said the official, who declined to be identified because Lam has yet to step down.
Lam has had high-profile successes during her tenure, such as the Randy “Duke” Cunningham bribery case – but she alienated herself from bosses at the Justice Department because she is outspoken and independent, said local lawyers familiar with her policies.”
Looks like a purge to me!
looseheadprop @ 94
Yeah, that’s the one. I was going to mention the Marianas but I didn’t want to take the heat for not spelling it correctly.
:-)
I mentioned in an earlier comment that Lam had a famous success in prosecuting two executives of a large fence company in CA for employing “illegal” immigrants.
rumi @ 91
Is that a snark or are you quoting something?
Question:
If Libby calls Cheney, but only to ask about his other tasks being so burdensome, etc., would not the cross-examination be limited to what Libby asks and how Cheney responds? I haven’t read all the comments yet, so this may have been asked already or addressed, but my point is: can they ask questions that do not pertain to his testimony brought out by Libby?
Thanks.
There was some discussion of an article or a book last year that noted that personnel decisions were being made in order to stock the government with religious zealots, much like the practices in manning the CPA in Iraq.
These moves in replacing various attorneys with cronies and fellow travelers are all of a piece. The damage to the institutions of civil government can be reversed and repaired, but not without daylight and constant struggle.
I fear that those things that we are aware of are only the tip of the proverbial iceberg. It will take those of good will much longer to fix the excesses than it has taken the forces of secrecy and unilateralism to promote them. They have operated in the shadows, unseen, with little opposition. They have used their full powers to squelch dissent and to threaten whistleblowers.
They have been able to get away with their profoundly anti-democratic rape of our Constitutional order because of insufficient volume from those in the media who would go along to get along.
We need to turn it up to eleven.
Helpless Dancer @ 57
You mean something like the moment in the movies that went something like this: “The Truth! You can’t handle the Truth!”
looseheadprop @ 101
The italics there are snark-marks….why, did you hear something about that incident?
:-)
JF @ 95
Don’t mean to give anyone palpitations but, they can fire him right now. He was appointed for a 4 year tern that expired in 2005. He is a holdover and can be repleced, quite legally, at any time.
Hastert was leaking his short list for replacements at the time. Abu Gonzales paid a very ominous looking trip ti “inspect” pat’s shop around that time. Cue the “jaws” music.
It was the most overt chunk of intimidation I have ever seen. Didn’t seem to have worked though.
Even if they fire him as US Attorney, he would still be Special Prosecutor. He would have to get all new infrastrucutre b/c he could not work out of his Chicago office, not use it’s personel any longer.
Former Sen. Peter Fitzgerald really went to bat to keep Pat in ILND
OT PSA – if you live in or near Irvine KY – this is for you. Butyl Acetate is believed to be burning at the scene of a train crash. Residents are advised to close all windows and doors and avoid inhaling the smoke.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 97
I think it is going up Wed. There is a an Evidence II post for tomorrow. I have to finish Hearsay and send it in first. Actually writing a post is a prerequisit to publishing it. *g*
Ann in AZ @ 103
Exactly. One cannot help but to dream. I can just imagine Cheney going apeshit and the whole courtroom in deep silence.
Frank – if the theory can’t support the practice then it’s not worth having. ;)
The DOJ did their inhouse review and even issued a public report – found that there was no problem with the Black situation, nothing to see here, move along, move along.
Crime rates are up all over. As a developed nation, we have an unconscionable percentage of our population in prisons. Fed and state, police and prosecutors and judicial systems are being starved for support. All the while, mindless and politicized invasive datamining is being duplicatively generated from dept to dept to dept – like a really bad Warhol print.
The patterns I see are more on a par with Tyco, Pepsico, Lockheed, Boeing and academia; el-Masri, Arar, Padilla, Kurnaz, Uighurs, Abu Ghraib, Bagram, the DTA, the MCA and the attacks from within that have crippled more than the attacks from without.
But that’s neither here nor there. For this thread, I’m just wondering if we ever will hear anything more on the 200 emails. They seem to have dropped off the screen, so I’m guessing we won’t, but they’ll nag at me.
work calls
looseheadprop @ 106
LHP – How would the “relief of his duties” as US Attorney affect the Libby trial? Since he would have to find new staff, would the trial have to be put on hold?
bellesouth @ 102
Normally, cross examination is limited to the subjects covered on direct. Two major exceptions: 1) when the witness is on both witness lists, then it’s kinda a free for all;2) when the witness says something on direct that “opens the door” to a new subject matter.
rumi @ 105
No, that’s why I was so astounded by what you wrote.
Mary @ 110
Oh, I would be surprised if we did not hear about the 200 emails.
looseheadprop @ 111
Brings up another question–at what point in either direct or redirect (or before testifying, for that matter) can a witness be considered as a hostile witness? And, if the judge agrees with that, does it change the nature of the questions either prosecution or defense may ask?
JF @ 111
I don’t think they would try that at this late stage. It would be too obvious. Even the MSM would not fail to make the connection.
I had my heart in my throat for weeks around the time that he expired. I was just sick over it and was making mental contingency plans and looking up the current phone numbers of old contact at GSA thinking that he was going to eed to find office space PDQ that was OK for the storage of classified materials.
You know, the guy has always worked at big organizations, I don’t think he has ever had to order his own office supplies. Had they done it a year ago, it would have made his life VERY difficult.
montag @ 115
Upon a motion, a witness can be declared a “hostile witness” at any point during the testimony. Even when you know at the outset that you plan to have the witness so declared, it is customary to lay a foundation for that through some preliminar questions to the witness. Just as you ask foundation questions of an expert witness before moving that the court declare the witness an expert.
Thanks LHP. I was just worried that Libby (I first typed Lippy. Isn’t that cute?)’s attorneys might try to limit Cheney’s testimony, but if his testimony is going to be about what Lippy was working on, this is obviously one huge area and/or door. Is Cheney on the prosecution witness list, too! Thanks so much for the rules of evidence. I am a brand new paralegal and needed the refresher course.
LHP – You do know that I think that hearsay doesn’t exists when the testimony favors the prosecution/government – but that’s me.
Expect to see Mrs. Toad-in-the-Hole on CNN or Fox ranting after her groom’s testy-mony. She will not be a weepy Madam Alito, but frothing at the mouth, especially if (please, god) Mr. Fitzgerald scores big against Mr. TITH.
routine zig maintenance
Thanks LHP. And punaise for the zig maintenance.
Mods, note the unfortunate typo. *grin*
I wonder if Cheney will claim under oath that Mohammed Atta met in Prague with Iraqi officials.
looseheadprop @ 89
So does the VP get the same consideration, i.e. “I have the power to instantly declassify anything I want declassified!”?
Hayduke @ 80
Plus, you can’t ask him about anything he’s read that is critical of him or the administration because he hasn’t read those (see every Meet the Press interview for the last 12 months.)
OT Reuters – Breaking News
Earthquake shakes buildings in Tokyo
More to follow…
There’s something just around the bend, I think, with regard to 11-707 (1/17/07), if not a FRofEvidence Rule 707:
How ‘funny’ it will be is yet unknown. But, in addition to Marcy’s Anatomy of Deceit coming off the presses on January 17th (last we heard), there will be a very revealing filing on Wednesday, 1/17, from the Special Counsel.
It will be his (necessary) response to a hostile Motion to Unseal (re certain redacted grand jury information in the appeal of Miller and Cooper) that was recently filed by Dow Jones & Company and the Associated Press, in the Circuit Court. [The Motion was filed the day after the defense announced Cheney would be a witness, and just before the holiday week in the intense pre-trial period. The government received an extension to respond (beyond the 8 days it otherwise had) until 1/17.]
It seems to me that the main point of the Motion to Unseal may well be to find out what the Special Counsel’s response will reveal about the status of the grand jury investigation (rather than actually getting access to the redacted material, which is a long-shot, I think, at least pre-trial).
And it seems very likely that we will learn, from ‘the horse’s mouth,’ the actual (ongoing or not) status of the overall investigation as a result of the government’s response, including perhaps even the status of certain potential subjects who have spoken publicly. This will be the first official, public word from the Special Counsel in over a year, on this front. It may also take some tea leaf reading, but I don’t think a response can be filed to this particular Motion that does not speak to the status of Fitzgerald’s investigation. So the questions of many people (and assumptions of many in the media) may well be answered (and contradicted) in the days ahead.
In other words: The characterization of Karl Rove (and Richard Armitage, and…???) as “cleared of charges” and of the investigation as “over” (per assertions in the Motion and the AP’s latest article) may be definitely, or not so definitely, confirmed – or contradicted – this week…
I’m counting on cboldt to scoop (or come close to scooping) the WSJ/AP on their own news on this front. cboldt’s website is here:
http://noeasyanswer.blogspot.com/
And here’s the link to the original 12/20/06 Motion to Unseal:
http://noeasyanswer.blogspot.c…..on-to.html
We’ll soon see. Stay tuned…
Sparkles the Iguana @ 124
I’ve been reading some blogs that I won’t link to and the AQ Khan network was mentioned as consuming their attention at the time…possible testimony.
bellesouth @ 118
He wasn’t, but that may have changed once Libby decided to cal him
Mary @ 110
Um, if anyone reading this has the 200 emails, you can post them anonymously here:
http://www.wikileaks.org/index.html
OT…speaking of revising history, Sir, No Sir! has been put on Google Video. I was in college during the Vietman war. I lost family in it and marched against it. I thought I was informed. There’s stuff in that clip that I had NO information about. Those days are gone, with the internet. That’s why they’re scrambling to gain control.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 119
Well in a parallel univiese that is probably true. Pat will need to make liberal use of every one of the hearsay exceptions in this case, won’t he? Hey, EPU you and me, you wanna keep count? You know like that game kids play on car trips where you keep count of how many red Volkswagon beetles you see?
What’s scary is that these shysters are the same ones who enact our laws.
a little late to this party, forgive if already mentioned;
hearsay is allowed as it aplies to a persons state of mind;
If I’m told my child was in a car accident, it doesn’t matter how I acted on that information is hearsay, I can use that to claim extenuating circumstances for say speeding to the accident or hospitol
Sally @ 120
If pat scors big, I expect to see a full on Wulizter in high gear attack. 24/7 character assasination and sliming.
Here’s hoping Fitz will introduce photos of Harry Whittington’s pellet-spackled face and torso into evidence.
Ann in AZ @ 125
Now THAT is an interesting theory! You think that’s going to be the thrust of his testimony? That he is going to get onthe stand and try to ex post facto authorize what Libby has done?
What I wouldn’t give to write the brief in that appeal….
Off CSPAN: President Bush visits DC school. Says helping someone in need honors King’s legacy.
:p
OT – Matt Stoller has a really nice article up at mydd about Edwards’ speech yesterday and Hillary Clinton’s response. She is definitely getting skittish about the Iraq issue – and she should be. She has a bully pulpit and has done virtually nothing to stand up to the Bush administration on the war. Same goes for Obama. Here’s the link:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007…..commenttop
“Edwards is making the argument that priorities rather than the ‘right’ positions matter, that politicians ought to be judged based on the risks they are willing to take, and those they are not willing to take. Senator Clinton might or might not come around to the ‘right’ position on Iraq, but her timing on the issue is as revealing of her character and priorities as the position itself. Wolfson is speaking to the press and saying that Edwards is being too mean and not like his happy talk self in 2004. Journalists might care about such ‘attacks’, but they ring hollow out here, where Google has memory of Senator Clinton’s complicity from 2002-2007. Her lack of action has allowed this war to go on as long as it has, and that’s a sin she ought to acknowledge and work to make up for. She must step up aggressively (and I would encourage her to think in terms of Iran), these attacks on Edwards will ring hollow among liberal primary voters, and will only serve to highlight to these voters her own lack of accomplishment, her own lack of judgment, and and yes, her own complicity in what’s happened.”
pow wow @ 128
Pow Wow,
You is da’ bomb!
jeffreyw @ 103
Do you think it could be that now that there is a Democratic Congress, the Administration is trying to send them into overload? I still think it’s time to send them into overload by starting impeachment proceedings against Alberto, Mikey (Chertoff), perhaps you can think of some others.
New thread, gang.
I meant to say investigation overload.
looseheadprop –
I’ve never understood (hat I take to be the legal) phobia against reasoning based o”hypotheticals”. In scientific discourse thinking about what MIGHT BE TRUE is the indispensible way of weeding out what can’t be true. WHAT GIVES?
looseheadprop @ 138
That’s what I’ve been asking for a while only my questions are based on the March 2003 Executive Order 13292 that gave the VP, and several notable affiliates, that enhanced power from that date. I think he’ll use this opportunity to get this claimed authority established.
looseheadprop @ 138
looseheadprop says:
January 15th, 2007 at 10:29 am *
Normally, cross examination is limited to the subjects covered on direct. Two major exceptions: 1) when the witness is on both witness lists, then it’s kinda a free for all;2) when the witness says something on direct that “opens the door” to a new subject matter.
I’ve never done a crim trial in fed court. I’m a state guy. But my witness list always includes “and any witness that the State calls”. Therefore, at least here in Marion County, Indiana, cross is so incredibly wide open that you would think that judges never before heard the objection that “Your Honor, that’s beyond the scope of Direct” (although I’ve certainly made it)(and I’ve gotten away with an amazing variety of “cross”-exam’s)
I see Cheney’s testimony as being small and tight – and essentially nothing more than a lay witness memory argument.
Am I wrong?
Is it going to be done live, or is it on Memorex?
Do Fed crim trial lawyers put that little catcha-all “and any witness the other side may call” on their witnesss list so as to be able to cross as to anything their little hearts so desire?
montag @
85
Agreed relative to Cheney. However, Bush is certainly anything but “unflappable” in general.
Mister Bush may have the presence of mind not to raise his voice or puke up pea soup while doing 360 degree head spins. However, he is pretty easily miffed and tripped up when faced with persistent or dogged questioning.
Although his persona might not come apart when he is forced to answer questions on someone else’s terms, his answers do come apart. This is why he is not allowed to do press conferences except on short notice and to cherry-picked questioners/questions. For the most part, he is not even allowed in front of an audience that might shout a question to him because of his propensity to flub it.
slainte,
cl
JF @ 111
Also, never underestimate the threat of another “Saturday Night Massacre!” I think we’re primed and ripe for it right now!
perris @ 147
I think its a blatant abuse of privilege but not a stretch of what is authorized in that order.
What do you consider a stretch?
I remember when Bush was asked about the
investigation, way, way back, he kept on blinking.
Is blinking considered the back drop for lying?
I think the key witness will be Tim Russert.
He’s got a pretty good image and I believe
he doesn’t lie (personal/heresay opinion only)
Jack
Bush’s blink is the lie detector for him. He blinks like mad when he’s lying. I’m surprised his blinker isn’t worn out after all these years (and lies).
rumi @ 151
I don’t think you can actually interperate the order he’s talking about to give him authority
I think we’ve discussed this here at the lake
I think they’ve been doing this all along, racing to get as much done as is possible before anyone noticed and demanded accountability. The takeover of the congress has kicked them into overdrive, and they may be getting sloppy. It’s harder to undo things than it is to do them in the first place. (see Humpty Dumpty) See also “surge” into Iraq so as to present Murtha et al with a fait accompli.
Treesong @ 145
I am unaware of any such phobia. Hypos are used al lthe time, both in law school (where theyare used exactly as you have described) and at trail
thank you so much for this post, lhp.
Here’s hoping that OFG and OK Kiddo are warm and safe during the bad weather!
perris @ 154
John Dean doesn’t think he can declassify at will:
That’s from his article here.
rumi @ 146
Now, THAT would be the basis for bomshell testimony!
jayt @ 148
Many defense lawyers do.
Sally @ 153
How will we know when Ari Fleischer is lying? He was a professional liar for so long.
HotFlash @ 158
I agree with Dean, FWIW
HotFlash @ 158
nicely sources, thanx
looseheadprop @ 159
I might be all by myself in thinking that this is the motivation for Cheney’s testimony but that is what I think. I’ve read pages and pages of both arguments and I’ve watched those guys ensure that they create an extra loophole for escape.
I’m not saying that it is a legitimate legal authority (eo13292 and specifics) for the VP to use but I think it will be an attempt to establish it.
Waxman challenged it but I’m thinking it will be an eventual Supreme Court issue and we all saw Alito’s views on executive authority.
jeffreyw @ 155
I also suspect they were trying to fly this under the radar while everyone’s attention was on the escalation in Iraq and the upcoming Libby trial, not to mention the three-day weekend where everyone’s out of town.
rumi @ 146
In your post you say: “Experts are allowed to offer opinions based upon a hypothetical set of facts posed by the questioner.”
This seems to me to indicate that such matters are regarded as special and not a province of ordinary reasoning.
perris @ 163
Does he even mention the EO in question in that article? I didn’t see it but I scanned the article and its been a long time since I read that one. I agree with Dean on nearly everything he says, by the way, but it is the specific eo13292 from March 2003 that I think Cheney refers to.
rumi @ 167
could you paste the referance you believe gives cheney the authority?
138looseheadprop says
Well, I thought I read that they’d already offered that as an excuse, and even gone so far as to say that the President approved of the instant declassifications, so…
Sparkles @ 161, yes, the problem with all of the mess we’re in is because there are so many professional liars in this assministration, from the top on down. It’s (nod to grammarians: it is!) a prerequisite as far as I can tell.
Here is the Clinton order:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/clinton/eo12958.html
and its language on declassification:
So the general scheme (from an authority – if not procedural, standpoint) is that you can declassify what you can classify or you can declassify if you are a supervisory official – or agency head – of the original classifer. While the current VP has been supervising quite a lot of stuff, where he actually fits in as a supervisor of agencies is probably a bit of an open question.
This gets lost easily bc of the way it was handled, but it is actually CLINTON who first added the VP’s office to the declassification loop by giving it classification authority. See:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/clinton/oca.html
Here’s how classification/declassification authority ends up under the Bush revision of the Clinton Executive Order and follow up –
http://www.fas.org/sgp/bush/eoamend.html
perris @ 168
Just to be clear
I’m not arguing that it gives Cheney the authority.
I’m arguing that Cheney claims that authority is given to him.
It might take a short time to find the best explanation of it, but I’ll post it.
rumi @ 172
I know cheney makes the claim, I am saying his claim is novel
While I’m narrowing down the search, here’s another example of how that claimed power might be used. It is part of a broad claim to extraordinary powers and exemptions. Since it has no precedent, there exists a need to create those precedents
Sec. 5.1. Program Direction. (a) The Director of the Information Security Oversight Office, under the direction of the Archivist and in consultation with the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, shall issue such directives as are necessary to implement this order. These directives shall be binding upon the agencies. Directives issued by the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office shall establish standards for:
(1) classification and marking principles;
(2) safeguarding classified information, which shall pertain to the handling, storage, distribution, transmittal, and destruction of and accounting for classified information;
(3) agency security education and training programs;
(4) agency self-inspection programs; and
(5) classification and declassification guides.
(b) The Archivist shall delegate the implementation and monitoring functions of this program to the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office.
Now, how could the OVP claim that it is not bound by that specific requirement?
perris @ 173
I agree with you but we also have to listen to what those guys are saying as they claim these powers. Besides creating a new reality for us to judiciously debate while they create new realities, it is based generally on the ‘need to protect the public from harm, danger or enemies.
rumi @ 175
in addition it does look like the supreme court is in their pocket, whatever they claim I beleive the courts will agree
Here too a few simple answers answer from a general FAQ on the amendment.
I know that is obscenely simplified but it shows a need for exception in emergency.
The quiet part that really bugged me is the exception to proper marking that was delayed for 180 days from the date of March 23(?) 2003
looseheadprop @ 160
Is there a way to find out if Fitzgerald has done this or has specified Cheney has a witness — probable or certainly or not?
perris @ 176
When the Democrats failed to challenge the Alito nomination, I felt that was a turning point to a downward spiral of democracy.
I have the highest respect for John Dean and thank him for speaking out for us in the many ways he does. His contributions are valuable beyond adjectives and compliments.
I’m in agreement with you that the claimed power shouldn’t stand, but look at everything else they have managed to pull off.
This may be part of what I’m trying to track down.
Only 4 people were aware of the declassification, as stated in previous records, and it has also been noted that the info document was being put through declassification by someone unaware of the new status.
I know I’m ignorant about the many points of law,
but please explain to me how Cheney could testify via video tape and be cross-examined by Fitz. How can he cross-examine a video tape?
Doesn’t Cheney have to answer his questions live?
Someone?
KathieinMN @ 59
one more nitpick on this thread and you have to start paying dues to the Nitpicker’s Union
Nitpicker’s Union, Local 4513
How many nits could a nitpick pick if a nitpick could pick nits?
Universal NP Brotherhood Local 42
I had a similar message from the Tickpickers too.
looseheadprop @
72
Yup. How do you think a DC jury would respond to Cheney telling Fitz to go fuck himself.
And to think I was worried about MY language in the court room?
looseheadprop @
138
But what if he gets up there and says “I have the power to declassify” and “I actually declassified Plame’s ID, so Libby would have no need to lie.
looseheadprop @
141
Now what would rock is if Fitz produced a document saying, “here’s the letter I sent Rove laying out his ongoing cooperation required otherwise the three charges against him would be real again.”
Not going to happen, mind you, but it’d be fun.