
Good Morning class. Today is the first day in our survey course entitled “Some of the law you might want to know to really enjoy Fitzmas”. This is a seminar course and I am sure you will learn far more from the comments in the threads than anything I could have to say, but isn’t that half the fun?
Today we will begin by discussing the phases of the trial. This is a jury trial which is the most formal and formulaic type of trial, because great trouble is taken to keep extraneous, confusing and misleading or distracting information out of the jury’s hearing and sight. Consequently a great deal of time is spent at “sidebar” conferences, which are conferences held with the lawyers and judge and the court reporter all huddled together at the bench whispering so the jury (and the rest of the courtroom) cannot hear what is being said.
Now there is no reason that the rest of the courtroom cannot or should not hear most of these arguments, it’s just the whispering so the jury won’t hear that prevents it. Judge Walton has already demonstrated that he believes the public has the right to know anything that is not privileged, classified or otherwise a secret, so instead of many bench or sidebar conferences, we may see the jury being sent out of the courtroom many times when the lawyers want to argue a point. This means the rest of us can hear the arguments. Yeah. This also slows down the pace of the trial, a lot. Booh.
Voir Dire
After a couple of days of great confusion on this point (because the orders on the docket sheet conflicted with the official court calendar), I have nailed down that jury selection will commence on January 16th. This is the first stage of the trial. In most federal trials the questioning of the potential jurors, also know as voir dire—which means “speak the truth”, is done by the judge based upon questions submitted by lawyers for both sides.
I checked the docket sheet for U.S. v. Libby, the attorneys for each side have already submitted their proposed voir dire questions to Judge Walton. In most state court systems, the lawyers ask the questions on voir dire and this is a powerful tool because you can vary your questions a bit and find out unexpected nuggets of information that may help you to target your approach to sway that juror, it is also a golden opportunity for each lawyer to begin to build rapport with the jurors. Consequently, lawyers in federal court often try to prevail upon the judge to allow them at least SOME direct questioning of the jurors, and judges often allow it.
U.S. District Court Judges have a handbook called the Benchbook for U. S. District Court Judges, which gives them advice on how to handle various things that can come up in the course of the trial. This is what it says about how the judge should handle the voir dire questioning of the jurors:
If the court conducts the entire examination, it should require counsel to submit proposed voir dire questions before trial to permit the court to incorporate additional questions at the appropriate places in this outline.
1. Have the jury panel sworn.
2. Explain to the jury panel that the purpose of the voir dire examination is:
(a) to enable the court to determine whether or not any prospective juror should be excused for cause;
(b) to enable counsel for the parties to exercise their individual judgment with respect to peremptory challenges — that is, challenges for which no reason need be given.
3. Explain to prospective jurors that presenting the evidence is expected to take __ days, and ask if this presents a special problem to any of them.
4. Read or summarize the indictment.
5. Ask if any member of the panel has heard or read anything about the case.
6. Ask counsel for the government to introduce himself or herself and counsel associated in the trial, as well as all the witnesses who will testify on the government’s presentation of its case in chief. Ask if the jurors:
(a) know any of these persons;
(b) had any business dealing with them or were represented by them or members of their law firms;
(c) had any other similar relationship or business connection with any of them.
7. Ask counsel for each defendant to introduce himself or herself and indicate any witnesses that defendant may choose to call. Ask if the jurors:
(a) know any of these persons;
(b) had any business dealing with them or were represented by them or members of their law firms;
(c) had any other similar relationship or business connection with any of them.
8. Ask prospective jurors:
(a) Have you ever served as a juror in a criminal or a civil case or as a member of a grand jury in either a federal or state court?
(b) Have you, any member of your family, or any close friend ever been employed by a law enforcement agency?
(c) If you answer yes to [either of] the following question[s], or if you do not understand the question[s], please come forward, be seated in the well of the courtroom, and be prepared to discuss your answer with the court and counsel at the bench.(1) Have you ever been involved, in any court, in a criminal matter that concerned yourself, any member of your family, or a close friend either as a defendant, a witness, or a victim?
(2) [Only if the charged crime relates to illegal drugs or narcotics, ask:]
Have you had any experience involving yourself, any member of your family, or any close friend that relates to the use or possession of illegal drugs or narcotics?(d) If you are selected to sit on this case, will you be able to render a verdict solely on the evidence presented at the trial and in the context of the law as I will give it to you in my instructions, disregarding any other ideas, notions, or beliefs about the law that you may have encountered in reaching your verdict?
(e) Is there any member of the panel who has any special disability or problem that would make serving as a member of this jury difficult or impossible?
[At this point, if the court is conducting the entire examination, it should ask those questions suggested by counsel that in the opinion of the court are appropriate.]
(f) Having heard the questions put to you by the court, does any other reason suggest itself to you as to why you could not sit on this jury and render a fair verdict based on the evidence presented to you and in the context of the court’s instructions to you on the law?
9. If appropriate, permit counsel to conduct additional direct voir dire examination, subject to such time and subject matter limitations as the court deems proper, or state to counsel that if there are additional questions that should have been asked or were overlooked, counsel may approach the bench and discuss them with the court.
In big cases and in a case where there has been a great deal of pre-trial publicity and there is a fear that it will be hard to find a sufficient number of unbiased jurors, the voir dire process is often done in several rounds beginning with a huge pool or pools of prospective jurors, called the venire, and winnowing down to more manageable numbers for the final questioning. In those cases they begin by having the veniremen fill out a questionnaire designed to weed out those jurors who would be disqualified “for cause”. Cause can be a number of things, but the easiest example would be if, by coincidence, the computer had included in this pool the brother of the accused, or of another participant in the trial.
I have worked on a couple of cases like that. When I was law student I worked on one where the pool was so large and the “for cause” objections so numerous, that they had the potential jurors fill out these questionnaires weeks in advance and then hired a bunch of law students to code the replies and create a data base that ranked jurors by level of potentially objectionable responses. In this way the jurors were ranked on a continuum from clearly disqualified, through iffy, all the way to “both sides will want this juror”.
Strangely, considering all the media hoopla involved in the investigation, the word on the street is that jury selection is only expected to take a couple/few days.
The current Scheduling Order calls for Opening Statements to begin “immediately thereafter”, so we could be looking at Opening Statements on January 22nd, or even sooner.
Although I have been called for jury duty, as a lawyer, I always get disqualified and have never sat on a jury. I have had the experience of being in front of both Petit (trial) Juries and Grand Juries, but don’t have a clue what it is like to be a juror.
Have any of you sat on a jury? What was it like?
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Mornin’ All!
FITZ!
Mornin’ guys.
will there be a test?
morning, lhp and ‘ morning, all…
I think better have some coffee first – anyone want some?
twolf1 @ 4
No test. This is prep so we all can get the most out of Fitzmas. Have you ever noticed when watching sports on TV that you enjoy the popcorn so much more if you are really “up” on the rules of the game and can anticipate the referee’s calls?
It’s like that
So, what kind of folks, what characteristics do you think the libby team will be looking to strike??
Mornin’ Firedogs,
thanks for the primer Prof. Prop – so will some of the legal eagles be able to discern direction of either side from Voir Dire ?
if so, please be advised I was always less than understanding with those kidz who raised their hands and asked Teacher to go over prev. covered material*g*
I’m guessing none of us would qualify to be on this jury…
OldCoastie @ 9
I barely qualify to read about it online :)
katie Jensen @ 7
I have been thinking about that. I can think what kinds I would strike as a prosecutor, but am coming up blank at the moment for a defense voir dire strategy.
What do the rest of you think?
I last sat on a jury the morning of 9/ll. We saw the Pentagon on fire from the top floor of the courthouse.
I keep being excluded from juries because my dad was the city prosecutor and my bro-in-law is a detective. Might be ever so slightly pro prosecution I suppose.
they probably don’t want any professional liars on the jury…
I have been on two major juries. One, an Air Force Sgt. and his family had been being harassed by teenage boys in their hood. One night, with his wife and kids at home, the kids began throwing rocks at the house, smashed the front window and were running back and forth among the trees in the yard. The dude had an arsenal of high powered weapons so he took a 22 loaded with bird shot and fired it out the window at the ground to scare them away. A pellet hit one of the kids in the leg and the Sgt was arrested. By the letter of the law he was guilty. During the trial the defense but this big mean looking kid on the stand and in his testimony he finally exploded and said “yeah, I threatened to kick the motherf*ckrs ass”. We found the defendant not guilty. To me this was an example of the system actually working.
The second trial was on was a rape. The defendant had gotten into the apartment of a woman he knew when late two small children let him in (they all knew each other). He raped the woman and then they all sat around and drank Mountain Dew and smoked cigs. In this trial Georgia had just approved “similar transaction” and three other women testified to similar situations with the defendant. The only one who resisted had her face smashed in. Also, there was an 8 year gap in this dudes record. Some folks on the jury thought he had used that time to change his life around. I thought they were nuts, the dude was obviously in the slammer. It was an agonizing time in the jury room but we found him guilty. He got life plus 140 and he didn’t bat an eye. That morning I saw a headline about the trial but, like a good juror, I did not read it. After the verdict I bolted to the coffee shop and read it and, sure enough, he had been in the joint for the rape and beating.
In my opinion justice was served in both of these trials. In one case we went against the directions of the judge and in the other the “similar transaction” is controversial.
katie Jensen @ 7
rather than strike, I think the personalities they will seek are the neocon “good citizen” wish list…
I think they will be aiming to call jurors who are
docile, fearful, compliant, unquestioning
I am just dying to see the actual evidence presented in this case. With all the pre-emptions due to National Secrecy the whole trial will probably boil down (for the public anyway) to a few giant “illustratives” of “Daytimer” entries. Don’t expect an O.J. evidence stream in this one folks. This trial will be as dry as Melba Toast.
cbl @ 8
I think Christy, Jane and Marcy are going to be down there in time for voir dire . Judge Walton has a hearing set IIRC for Jan 10th about whether pool reporters should be allowed in to cover the proceedings. This makes me think that they may do the individual questioning in chambers. That happened once on a high profile case I worked on b/c the reporters in the courtroom made some of the venire panel so nervous they literally could not talk.
You know when you open your mouth to say something and only a dry sqeak comes out? The questioning went so poorly that the judge got fed up, allowed only two “pool” reporters into chambers and did the individual questioning of the jurors in chambers. he also limited how many trial team members could be in the room.
It was all about pouring water on the hoopla
Prof Prop,
was foreperson in criminal case about 20 yrs ago – was stunned not t/b dismissed from pool as it was sexual assault, me being Bay Area feminazi and all
no real trouble w/ prosecution case, but was impressed with how seriously we all took the weight of sentencing def. to 8 – 12 yrs
Grousefinder @ 16
Melba Toast nibbles are great
Fitz will spread lightly with jam, I’m sure…
probably lower calorie than buttered popcorn
Grousefinder @ 16
I think most of the sex appeal in this trial will be in the testimony, but unlike OJ there are no cameras in the courtroom.
Somebody, was it AP? made a motion to allow audio feed from the courtroom. The precedent for that is that the SUpreme Court now does that on special occassions. I’m curious to see how that turns out. If they do, we can follow along in real time
So, do you think one of the defense’s questions submitted to the judge is “Do you read firedoglake?” Seems like it would be a shortcut to elimination for cause!
Thanks for the primer – I wasn’t aware that in federal cases it is the judge who does the voir dire instead of a the various attorneys.
Live audio stream? I’ll end up losing my job for non production for sure!
looseheadprop @ 20
Recall that an entire industry was created after the O.J. debacle for saavy graphic artists who understood law and art. The weekly mags were full of images illustrating the obvious.
I hope in this trial that the image consuming public gets something to hang their hats on other than text (sans redaction).
cbl @ 18
I have been in front of many juries over the years. I never fail to be astounded at how seriously and well they do their jobs. It is a particular genius of this system.
Do you know where juries come from?
They are a gift from the Saxons. Periodically, the Saxons would have fairs or trading days when people would gather tot trade goods and do commerce. In connetcion with the fairs there would also be a meeting called the Thing. Onece a year would be a really big version called the All-Thing.
Anyway, the Thing was sourt of government by concensus, like a New ENgland Town Hall meeting. In it, people would be divied in caucuses by status and would argue like a legislature and try to come up with some agreements about matters pertaining to people of their own class or status.
Also, those who had been accused of crimes or civil wrongs would be “tried” befor the Thing for their class.
Which is where we get the idea of a trial be a jury of your peers.
There was a time in England where a commoner could only be triad by a jury of commoners, clergy could only be tried by clergy, and nobelmen could only be tried by other nobles.
I’ve been on many juries, all but one criminal. The worst was a civil jury because the case was settled after we were chosen but before any trial. As a juror, it was annoying. This case will be the same because the Decider will pardon it away just like his father did with Iran-Contra.
Unlike the UCMJ where you get to go in front of officers!
looseheadprop @ 23
I expect team Libby to strike obviously smart moderate to liberal people, on the grounds that such jurors will reject the failed memory defense, based on the juror’s own experience of operating under stress.
lhp,
i feel pretty sure that the court won’t allow live radio feeds. as i’m sure you know, federal courts have been annoyingly overprotective of their rights to exclude media.
i’ll be very interested in any accoutns of the questions asked by the defense during jury selection. my feeling is they may separate the repubs from the rest of the jury pool, and go from there. because the defense is going to paint this as a prosecution without a crime and a partisan witch hunt.
i have never served on a jury — the closest i came was a murder trial when i was in the pool for questioning. i was prepared to say that if a death penalty was a possibility, then i would be unable to convict. but with the jury pool assembled, the defendant had a change of heart and decided to plead out.
Grousefinder @ 22
We already know that Libby has a “Dot chart” whatever the hell that is. most Federal Courtrooms are hardwired for AV. My local courthouse has such a sophisticated system that all I have to do is bring my laptop to the podium, plug in an ether net cord and the exhibits, charts, power points, you-name-it, will be blast up on huge wide screen TVs for the judge witness and jury.
There are Video cameras in the ceiling so you can do wide screen close ups of the witness and lawyers. You can also do remote video of the witness who doesn’t even have to be in the courtroom.
Things have eveolved quite alot since OJ
twolf1 @
10
Guilty! What, we’re not at that phase yet?
What kind (if any) reasons could team Libby come up with to ask for the trial to be continued?
(kicking the can down the road, so to speak, for the purpose of getting closer to Xmas 2008).
Badwater @ 24
badwater, am absolutely with you on that.
my feeling is libby will stretch this out as long as he can, then if found guilty appeal it up the wazoo. and that should he wind up in a club fed, he knows that his get out of jail card will be in the mail, dated no later than jan. 19, 2009.
dmg @ 27
I think when a defendant actually sees the jurors, it all gets very real and overwhelming. Many civil cases settle and criminal cases plead out at that point
Other than for cause, how many strikes will each side have?
In case you ever wondered about headlines, try this trio from this morning’s Google News:
“We already know that Libby has a “Dot chart” whatever the hell that is.”
Probably a timeline…the old: “I didn’t know that then…it didn’t exist when you say I was supposed to know it!”
Good post this AM…must go teach now.
I was excused from the pool shortly after saying that I would find it difficult to sit in silence on the jury and not ask questions. Prosecutor apparently didn’t like that. However, the judge indicated that after my statement that there would be some sort of mechanism for my questions.
What was she talking about?
Bully!
lina @ 30
He’s used them all, except on classic. Libby hasn’t gotten sick yet. There used to be a mobster in NY walked around Little Italy and Greenwhich Village in his bathroab, mutterring to himself. His lawyers got (I can’t count that high) many ajournments on the basis of high blood pressurre, dementia, I think heart trouble, lots of stuff like that.
I’m still waiting for Libby to have a last minute collapse in dramatic fashion.
Years ago, in a law firm I worked at, one of the partners had case and theother side kept trying to adjourn the trial. No dice. The other side sent in a Doctor’s letter. no dice.
First day of trial, dramatic grasping of chest, keeling over, wild ambulance ride.
Diagnosis? Stress and hysteria. There was nothing wrong woth the guy.
I never thought I would get on either jury I was on. I know the public defender and one of the DA’s team very well and said so, they took me anyway.
I served on a jury in Boulder, Colorado in the 80’s. The defendant was accused of abusing his 8 year old daughter. We saw photos of his belt buckle and the impression it left on her skin. He accused his wife. We found him guilty. The prosecutor came in afterwards and thanked us for finding him guilty, and added that he would get less time than if he had abused his dog.
I was called for jury duty on a meth-amphetamine case last year. I was excused after I said I had issues with criminalizing drug abuse.
OT – CNN – Kennedy to make speech on Iraq today at 1PM eastern
old gold @ 33
There is a presumptive amount (I am not at the office and don’t have the Rules at home with me to look the number up for you) but in a case like this, often the court sets a number.
OT – well, I gotta give Ahnold his due – he is at least trying to offer a universal health plan…
hard thing to do in this big state…
I suppose that being a lawyer would have gotten me stricken anyway, but being one of the lawyer’s former law professor was a particularly fast ride out to the street.
Guess he didn’t like the grade he got, and couldn’t move past that.
gotta go to work – everyone have a great day
thanks, lhp, for the schoolin’!
raven @ 39
Do you live in a really low population area? you know, where everybody knows everybody?
LHP – think it’s going to be Christy and possibly Jane covering voir dire starting on the 16th. Think emptywheel’s in MI through the 17th.
Better order my copies of ‘Anatomy of Deceit’ NOW, huh?
I was on a jury while studying for my doctoral exams. They were sufficiently far enough in the future, that it didn’t get me excused, but not so far in the future that they weren’t on my mind.
This was a criminal case with four defendants (assult and battery), each of whom had his own attorney. Voir dire took a week, as each of the atty’s had to have a shot at asking questions, and they often overlapped with each other – which didn’t make the judge or the jury pool terribly happy. As a jury, we were sent in and out of the room for about half of the sidebar conversations, as there wasn’t enough room at the side of the bar for five attorneys (4 defense, 1 DA), the court reporter, and the judge.
I got a lot of reading done for my exams during those conferences.
have heard more than once on these and other threads that DC juries are – the usual older demographic, working class and ’strictly business’ – if so, would think it would play in to Fitz’s hand – anyone ?
Will the Libby jury be sequestered?
Sorry to be off topic, however, MSNBC has a lovely photo of Bush and Abramoff up today. That is all . Back to lurking.
tryggth @ 36
Excellent question!! This has to do with jury deliberations. WHile the jury is deliberating, it gets to send out notes with questions. then the parties and the judge put on little re enactment sof the evidence to answer the questions.Sometimes the judge give additional jury instructions to anser the questions.
Prof Prop, thank you so much.
OT, but I take a perverse joy in the trial being held in DC, aka “Chocolate City.” I think the the jury will be short of people who were born on third and think they hit a triple.
What will the defense be looking for? They’ll be looking for people with a propensity to get distracted – “oooh, look: bright shiny things!” The converse will be to weed out people who can stay focused, and who can ignore the chaos around them. Thus, I think the answers that Team Irving will get to their questions will not be as important as the affect of the jurors as they answer.
If you live in D.C. and you don’t ignore the summonses, you get called for jury duty every couple of years. Here’s the little bit I learned from my experience:
1. Young people are underrepresented in the pools and even more underrepresented after voir dire. Young defendants need young jurors, just for familiarity with daily life.
2. Older folks are overrepresented.
3. Black folks are underrepresented.
4. White folks … see No. 3.
5. Juries as a whole take their responsibilities seriously and help to manage individual members who have unserious tendencies.
6. At the start of deliberation, the range of opinion can be startling.
7. By the end of deliberation, whether conclusive or not, there is a clear consensus.
8. Each juror remembers some details that can keep the deliberations honest, and most of them, no matter how deferential or shy, eventually speaks up.
9. There is always at least one final holdout, usually someone with lingering doubts about what is unknown that must be removed or reconciled with what is known.
10. Juries realize that they don’t have the whole story and work with what they have.
11. Technical issues are not beyond juries’ understanding. If the lawyers and the judge get the information before the jury, the members help one another remember.
11. My respect has grown for every juror I have sat with. Everybody eventually demonstrates a fundamental desire to be fair, a reluctance to do harm, and deep concern for the individuals involved as well as the community.
That’s been my experience. I’ll be following this discussion to see what others have seen.
Prof @ 34
Uh yeah,
How is it that we have a nuke sub positioned next ti Iran right about the same time we make ur medeast commander OF TWO GROUND WARS from a navy guy?
Now a Navy Background and a nuke sub would be very useful if you were going to war with Iran instead of Iraq ot Afganistan.
Not much call for a Navy background or a sub if you are fighting in the desert or the mountains.
Just sayin’s all
cbl @ 49
Reports of Grand Jury agree…
so I’m hoping you’re right on here!
OT – RIP – ‘Scooby-Doo’ cartoonist dies at 81
Great comment eddie, thanks.
John Casper @ 59
I agree, thanks, Eddie.
In Georgia you can’t bring any reading materials at all. My wife was an alternate and she sat in a room all alone 8 hours a day for a week.
Peterr @ 48
Rayne @ 47
I got an email from Emptywheel, she is planning on coming down onthe 17th and has some kind of a tea party or something with a member of Congress. So, she will only be covering the voir dire if it dribbles over inot the 18th.
I still cannot figure out how they think they are going to do this in such a short time.
I believe jane and Christy plan on being in DC from the 16th. However, Christy was concerned that the voir dire might be a little too dry and technical for live blogging. I see her point. But you never know. weird stuff could happen.
should have qualified that by saying I am confident Mr. Wells is quite the charmer
yes, yes, Eddie ! – agree with John Casper, although I disagree as to the perverse nature of our shared joy*g*
There are always subs in that AO.
looseheadprop @ 56
Peterr @ 48
First rule of being a juror. have lots of reading material or portable work with you. Unbelievable amounts of downtime. I wrote an entire brief once while on jury duty and I didn’t even get picked!
No jury trial experience here. But i watched a good movie, an old one with Henry Fonda called The Twelve Jurors ? last week-end on Turner Classics.
cbl @ 49
If I were PatFitz, I woud be so happy to have a DC jury. These folks are used to seeing he Hgh and mighty around town and are not so impressed withtitles. Also, these are mostly the working poor, not exactly Scooters best demographic
12 Angry Men
NaNOO @ 66
LHP (63) — unless she’s got a late flight booked evening of 17th, I’ll bet on EW being in DC morning of 18th. We’re at the same shindig the afternoon of the 17th, supposed to be a little brainstorming going on there with a few other contacts. Given the backgrounds of our feminine FDL Trinity covering the trial, having Christy there for voir dire would be the most helpful since she’ll have a prosecutor’s sniffer on her.
Jay @ 50
During deliberations? Proabably. It makes them decide faaster. During a 2 month trial? I doubt it, unless something happens (like papparazzi annoying them or an attempt at witness tampering) that requires it. there are criteria for that (usually danger to the jurors–like a mob case or high likelihood of improper influence–like case with protestors and mobs)
Much more likely may be semi anonymous jury, where we don’t know their last names. This would be to help shield their prvaacy and tehir families privacy.
Peterr @ 54
Nice Pickup! You’re right
I would imagine that a DC jury would also be well versed on the notion of security clearances, keeping classified information secret, etc. In a city where custodial staffers have FBI files and top secret clearances, Irving will have a tough time saying “gosh, keeping all these secrets a secret is hard to remember to do.”
Yep, Fitz has got to like the possibilities that a DC jury presents. Team Irving? Not so much.
Sorry if this is a tad remedial, but I would appreciate it if you don’t mind answering:
Just how much are either side allowed to ask jurors about political leanings, personal beliefs, etc. during voire dire? Are there limits as to what questions can be asked, and what strategies do the lawyers use to get around those limits?
Collision took place somewhere in the Strait of Hormuz
If regional war breaks out in the Middle East, and if someone wants to close the Straits, a few super tankers sunk in the right places could close it off. Such an event would cause a world wide depression if the Straits are not promptly reopened. That’s hard to do if people are shooting at you. This is one “doomsday” scenario that everyone worries about if the Sunni Shia Civil war expands outside of Iraq. (Another element of this scenario is that sabotage by all sides will interdict crude production by all sides) We’re a lot closer to this happening than we were before Bush
invaded, occupiedbroke Iraq.And all of our subs are nukes
cbl @ 62
You know, I have never seen Wells before a jury. I have seen him many times speaking before his own peers. He comes off in those venues as very pompous and self conscious of his own perogatives.
I wonder if he can do the Jon Bolton “kiss up, kick down” personality transpalnt. When I watched Bolton in his Cong. Hearings, he seems like such a sweatheart, it was hard to reconcile this seemingly geniel man with the jerk I know he is when the cameras are off.
I wonder if Wells can do a similar chameleon change?
Jury duty runs in my family. Mom’s done it twice. I’ve done it once, called twice. My dad juried a gruesome murder/dismemberment thing that he still won’t talk about.
We’re all suckers for a good story and attornies love us for it.
I am so looking forward to the play by play and I am certain there will be lots of parsing and conjecture about what this meant and that meant. OOOOHHHH I live for that stuff. Thanks for the post this morning lhp!! You are great.
NaNOO @ 66
This FDL coverage is going nicely, must say that having prep work with LHP is an enormous benefit. I worked for a Fortune 100 company’s law section, as assistant to an attorney/corporate officer but never saw a court room, only truckloads of paper during that time. Even the stuff that seems dry in this trial will be an improvement over actually doing document production or proofing contracts. Ugh.
During voir dire I could see Christy doing an overview in the a.m. of what the situation looked like that morning based on her experience, whether progress is good/bad; could see Jane giving the “color” report in the evening, with EW elaborating on testimony detail as they get past voir dire. Can hardly wait!!!
LHP — do they have you on “standby” to do educational reviews of special terms and situations as they pop up during the trial?
alton @ 73
in Federal practice, the judge asks most of the questions. Also, the lawyers for each side submitt their questions in advance so that the judge has already ruled in advance as which questions may be answered.
The exception to that is when a juror give a really unexpected answer for which there is no pre-existing question in the list. Then the lawyers and judges will have a sidebar about what follow up questions should be asked and the judge will make a ruling
Thanks Raven, but perhaps the title should have been 11 Angry Men, i thought Fonda kept his Cool throughout.
Jason Leopold’s (of truthout.org) claim that Rove was indicted, even informed the WH of same, and cut some kind of deal with Fitzgerald whereby he shared information in exchange for not being tried? I haven’t heard anything since.
I am ignorant as to how someone can be indicted and then not taken to trial. Can someone please enlighten me?
Sorry, something weird happened with my previous comment and the beginning was cut off:
Can anyone comment on Jason Leopold’s (of truthout.org) claim that Rove was indicted, even informed the WH of same, and cut some kind of deal with Fitzgerald whereby he shared information in exchange for not being tried? I haven’t heard anything since.
I am ignorant as to how someone can be indicted and then not taken to trial. Can someone please enlighten me?
katie Jensen @ 78
I am such a trial junkie. When Iwaas in law school, I would just walk over to the courthouse and watch trials whenever I could. Night Court in NY Crim, is the most rip roaring cheap date on the planet. Better than the movies.
I love watching other really good lawyers at work. It’s like a baseball player who is a student of the game.
Rayne @ 80
I hope to go down for at least some parts of the trial, but don’t intend to live blog. I am always available to the Ladies of the Lake for anything they need from me
I only mentioned it in case someone wanted to look it up. It was an odd title. “Anatomy of a Murder” is another great trial movie. Lee Remick may have been the original trailer trash in that one!
NaNOO @ 82
mandrake @ 83
Yes you can. You get indicted then enter into a “cooperation agreement”. In such cases you usually do not go ahead and enter your guilty plea and get sentenced until after your cooperation is complete.
IF and that’s a big IF, the Leapold story is correct.Rover will be on the hook for a long time to come. That’s how I like my rovers, slow roasted.
raven @ 87
My local PBS has “witness for the prosecution” (Charles LAwron ans the defense lawyer–very Rumpole of the Baily kind of character, Tyrone Power as the accused and Merlene Deitrich as his wife/the witness for the prosecution)
With all these clasic trial movies on,it’s as if the TV was trying to getus in the mood for Fitzmas. Hmmm? Ya don’t think???
Peterr @ 72
Actually I am wondering if the Libby team won’t want to disqualify anyone who has held a security clearence or who is related to someone who has. One of the reasons this case has cause so much resentment in worker bee Washington is the tiny things that can cause worker bees to lose their clearences, but Libby gets to blow and entire intelligence operation. Hasn’t gone down well with the worker bees.
looseheadprop @
56
Take it from me that Nuc subs are everywhere there’s sea water and some places there isn’t. The sub being there may be totally unrelated, partially related, or tracking the tanker because it’s got a team on board.
This will be the end of that captain’s career whatever the outcome. Getting hit or even seen is a no-no.
Alice @ 90
Yes, I’d guess that the DC worker bees are a bit peeved at this case.
Team Irving might want to disqualify them, but I can’t see Walton going along with a blanket disqualification for anyone with a security clearance. More likely in my mind (but still a long shot) would be a CIA request that every juror MUST have a clearance, in order to see the various exhibits, even in redacted form.
Pardon for Libby? I don’t think so. A psychopath like Bush uses people and then throws them away without a care. As CHS(?) pointed out, a pardoned Libby would loose his 5th protection and could be forced to tell all. Bush doesn’t give a shit what happens to Libby as long as it doesn’t come back on him.
OT – (aren’t I almost always?)
Does anyone know who I can contact to get help with registering for YearlyKos?
I am stuck in registration hell with passwords. I thought I had at least set up an account. But now it says it does not recognize either my original computer generated password or the one I ‘thought’ I had changed it to. I tried to contact them for help but .. you guessed it… did not recognize my password.
sorry for the interruption. As soon as an open thread appears at Kos I will ask there too.
Now back to our law class with Prof. LHP..
First of all, looseheadprop, thank you so much for all of the explanation you’ve offered here over the past several months. It’s helpful, interesting, and you’re really kind to offer it.
The last time I was called for jury duty two years ago, every voir dire I was asked to participate in featured a questionnaire. One of those questionnaires was 25 pages long. The defendant for this particular trial was an 18-year-old young man who’d had consensual sex with his sixteen year old girlfriend at a local church camp a year before. Of course her parents found out, and of course, they pressed charges. If convicted, he would have had to register as a sex offender in our state. I felt so badly for him. The jury selection process was like nothing I had ever seen, and I’ve been called for jury duty a lot. I’d never previously seen jurors excused before the start of questioning. The judge also offered to question some of those potential jurors in his chambers because of the subject matter.
I have been a juror in a criminal trial. The trial I served on was a guy accused of exposing himself to two females on a Metro bus in Seattle. It turned out to be a case of mistaken identity. The defense attorney asked the police officer testifying about the arrest if he wanted to reread his statement on the arrest three different times; he refused. I remember wondering why she was so insistent about it. We all found out why a few minutes later. She proved that the defendant couldn’t possibly be sitting where he was in the bus that afternoon and be the person that had committed the crime. He wasn’t even wearing the same clothes the two women and the arresting officer insisted he was wearing that day. The prosecutor jumped out of her chair and shouted, “I want a sidebar!” The jury was removed from the room. There must have been some arguing.
We were brought back in, heard the closing arguments, then we were sent to deliberate. We’d just walked into the room and I said to the group, “Why don’t we just take a vote and see where we are?” It was unanimous — he wasn’t guilty. Five minutes. The foreman wanted to eat lunch, so we waited another 45 minutes or so and called the judge.
It was interesting, to say the least.
-S
At age 67 and having lived in three states (IL and PA in addition to MN) I have never even been summoned for jury duty. This in spite of the fact that I have voted in every general election where I have lived.
And wherever they are not they can get there WAY faster than most people can imagine. Ditto for the flatops.
karnak12 @ 91
I got called for jd in a death penalty case.
It was a rape and murder. There was an extensive q-aire from magazines read to bumper stickers, radio stations, etc. A “high profile trial.”
I was the last in my pool for voire dire. The only person I knew was the judge. I figured the prosecution might like me for having been sexually assaulted as a child.
But I got dumped for being against the death penalty. I could not tell a lie. Truth told, I didn’t want to hear the evidence anyway. Guy was guilty.
Another time I was on a jury for a trial on “loss of consortium.” In the end I was an alternate, so I didn’t get to vote on that count. The jury awarded $7500. That was $7500 too much.
karnak12 @ 91
And getting hit by a tanker? This isn’t a little cigarette boat that can turn on a dime and chase you down – tankers takes dozens of miles to turn or stop. I’m not a sailor, but I think it’s safe to say that you would have to work hard to be hit by a tanker.
“Heckuva job . . .”
Minnesotachuck @ 96
Me too! Three states – ND, MN, and ID, always vote, never called. I know most people think it is an annoying pain, I think it would be fascinating – which would probably get me premptively challenged right out the door!
Have you seen the filing of proposed ‘questionaire’ voir dire questions that Libby’s team filed in November? I stumbled onto it in a search and didn’t know if it had been posted or if it should be. In the filing, it mentions the court’s aversion to using a questionaire. Why?
OT – Sharpton considers running for president
looseheadprop @ 88
Thank you for clearing that up! Please let it be so. Better late than never.
[hope]
looseheadprop @ 88
I’ve long believed that sealed indictments or charges have been filed all along. I think that’s probably the case with Rover, too…fwiw.
mandrake @ 103
Oh, yeah, any idea as to when we will know the answer to this? Will it come after the completion of the Libby trial?
looseheadprop @
23
I have been in front of many juries over the years. I never fail to be astounded at how seriously and well they do their jobs. It is a particular genius of this system.
A few years ago one news program had a special where they were allowed to place cameras in the jury room to film the deliberation. The defense attorney (who lost) of course complained about the jury not taking all the evidence (which exonerated his client) into account–and really, what else could he say?–, but the prosecutor was fascinated, never having seen it before and he was surprised by how professionally the jury deliberated.
Of course this was one of the those up in the air cases and not a Zapp Branigan file into the jury room and exit another door to convict the idtiot.
mandrake, Jason hangs out at FDL and enptywheel’s place (tnh). There was a lot of obvious speculation by the great plameologists that Rover would be indicted. Jason takes that kind of information and then invents “anonymous sources” in his posts saying what he learned from FDL and emptywheel. Then he comes over to FDL, because it’s got so much traffic, always under an assumed name, for example Harry Shed, and announces that there’s a scoop from Leopold over at
FakeTruthOut. People pounded Jane and Christy when Jason first said he had sources about Rove’s indictment. “Leopold knows Rove was indicted, why don’t you. I guess Leopold knows more about Plame than FDL,” stuff like that. A lot of the MSM followed Leopold, but Jane and Christy refused to buckle under enormous pressure from their readers.Jason is a double thief. He posts the hard work of other sites at TruthOut without proper attribution and then he’s trying to steal traffic away from those same sites and drive it to TruthOut.
IIRC, he did the same thing when John Paul II was “circling the drain.” Everyone knew he was going to die, but Jason wanted to be first so he kept inventing anonymous sources that John Paul II was dead. John Paul II hung on a lot longer than anticipated, thus discrediting Jason’s “anonymous sources.”
Jason won’t write anything unless it’s from an “anonymous source.” FDL and emptywheel never use anonymous sources in any of their posts. All their posts come from the hard work of reading all the available documentation.
mandrake @ 105
Never, probably.
The ‘big one’ is coming.
From the Guardian today:
‘Many dead’ in US air strikes on Somalia
The United States has launched air strikes against Islamists in southern Somalia, confirming the country’s status as a new frontline in Washington’s war on terror.
looseheadprop @ 81
I appreciate the answer, but I’m curious as to the content of the questions put to the potential jury, as well as the process. What is the yardstick that the judge uses or is supposed to use to measure them? Do they have to be directly related to the trial? What subjects are considered fair game?
Thanks again for the tutorial.
I long is this trial expected to last?
T minus 1 hour 27 minutes until the beginning of the 100 hours plan
OT – CNN – Today’s high school shooting – 2 students shot at Western HS in Las Vegas
I always thought they could ask anything they wanted to ask. The also have a certain number of strikes that they can use with no justification at all, right? That’s why I was amazed when they kept me.
alton @ 110
Latest FaBlog: Sometimes This Blog Writes Itself
DEFENDANT’S PROPOSED VOIR DIRE.
pdf file
feel free to delete this link/comment if desired. I figure this is old news here to some but it’s new to many of us. Sorry for the repeat if I missed this link here earlier
Thanks lhp for the post.
OT– Ted Kennedy to speak at the National Press Club ca. 1pm on cspan 2 wrt “The Future of Iraq”– could be some roaring goin’ on.
oh, and curious the way we strike Somalia just before the deciderator-in-chief gives his 9 o’clock speech…and now proof we can hit Japanese tankers… what a tough guy he is, indeedy.
rumi @ 115
Thank you!
Prof @ 34
Great example of good and bad journalism. I do not like misleading Headlines. In the first, the Japanese are to blame. In the second, the US is to blame. The third is factual, and lets the reader decide. Classic examples of possible media bias, whether intentional or not.
well, my, my! and OT–
From the column:
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0109.html
ya, we only think the public knows about this case because we are intimate
not too m,any people know what’s involved
John Casper @ 107
Very informative. Thank you!
for those of you with a day off and all your chores done -
an interesting link from Gov. Ryan’s trial
http://www.suntimes.com/news/g…..index.html
John Casper @ 74
If regional war breaks out in the Middle East, and if someone wants to close the Straits, a few super tankers sunk in the right places could close it off. Such an event would cause a world wide depression if the Straits are not promptly reopened. That’s hard to do if people are shooting at you. This is one “doomsday” scenario that everyone worries about if the Sunni Shia Civil war expands outside of Iraq. (Another element of this scenario is that sabotage by all sides will interdict crude production by all sides) We’re a lot closer to this happening than we were before Bush
invaded, occupiedbroke Iraq.Timing is everything
lindy’s comment sounds like the oil/energy companies are profiteering in New Orleans
We have met the terrorists, and they are us.
rumi @ 108
Okay, so assuming Rove was indicted, will he still not have to face trial? Is that what you are saying? Just trying to understand this. Don’t have any criminal law background.
Oliver North Says Nearly All U.S. Troops In Iraq Oppose Escalation
alton @ 110
Since we have the right to a private vote, can they ask you how you voted, and can you refuse to answer.
In Mass., I was told that getting called for jury duty is not based on whether you vote; it’s related to being listed as a resident in the town register/books. I did sit on a jury on a domestic assault/robbery case. The main thing I remember is feeling the gravity/seriousness of the situation, the civic trust that I would do my best to judge the evidence. You have to understand logic/reasoning to be an effective juror.
Wonder what shares in Halliburton/KBR sold for prior to Iraq; compared to now.
twolf1 @ 126
Um, maybe some of those Malkkkin types can locate some real soldiers over there who will speak the truth. Clearly, Ollie did not get this story right.
I just heard Cockburn on the radio saying that the reason the reporting is notsogood over in Iraq is because a reporter on the streets is a dead reporter.
Have a good trip Michelle!!
Clusterfuck busy learnin how to say the words in his speech now scheduled for tomorrow night. In the meantime- two new polls measure the temperature of the public concerning Iraq:
Should the US:
increase troops 18%
keep the same 17%
Decrease 30%
remove all 29%
(CBS)
Should the US:
withdraw now 15%
withdraw in 12 mos 39%
withdraw when as it can 31%
send more troops 12%
(Gallup)
CBS asks if the public is in favor of a short term increase in troops- the response is almost evenly divided 45% in favor 48% opposed.
But when gallup asks if people are in favor of clusterfuck’s plan to increase troops= they get very different answers- 36% in favor 61% opposed. The answer to the question is VERY volatile depending on the specific words used..
Pollsters all say Clusterfuck’s got a huge uphill battle in selling the public on his brilliant plan.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 129
halliburton 5 years
Oklahoma Kiddo,
these kids keep track on their front page :)
http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/
raven @ 61
What a flipping stupid rule.
Thanks for the Ollie North link twolf1. Wrt North, there’s a little bit of good in the worst of us.
In the trial on which I did jury service, I had the sense that all five attorneys were good at questioning witnesses, objecting to the opposition’s tactics, filing briefs, and knowing the fine points of the law. On the other hand, there were huge differences in the abilities of the five attorneys to present their case to the jury. One used poorly-drawn handwritten charts, that not only didn’t help their client but may have hurt their case. Two others apparently had no idea about how to paint a big picture, in order to put five weeks of testimony and evidence into focus. “Here’s what matters . . . here’s what the evidence shows happened . . . a, b, c . . . and therefore your work is quite simple: the defendant cannot be found guilty.”
The longer and more complicated the case, the more important the skill of putting everything in perspective becomes.
That’s where Team Irving will be up a creek, IMHO. They can try to muddy the waters, point to shiny objects, and all manner of other things, but Fitz’s track record for clarity, for keeping to the four corners of the indictment, and for thoroughness will make his opening and closing statements very compelling for a jury.
Irving is on trial for obstruction and perjury, and Fitz will not let the jury forget that for a moment.
Don’t worry.
George W. Bush and Abe Lincoln are standing to the left and the right of George W. Bush.
All will be ok my children.
-GSD
Good, God,we are doomed. Read down a bit to discover that the painting is in the private collection of The Decider.
I served on a jury for a kidnapping-and-2nd-degree-murder case, in which the accused was found guilty.
He was an 18-year-old who had kidnapped his younger ex-girlfriend at gunpoint when she came out of her evening shift job, driven at high speeds down the freeway with his headlights off, and eventually flipped his car on an off-ramp. The kidnapped girl was thrown from the car and died at the scene.
The trial took 8 or 9 days. I agree with all of eddie’s points upthread. Further notes:
Our jury was mixed in age, race, and gender. Successful mix except for one middle-aged man who apparently felt out of place.
Much of the trial was in Spanish, with court interpreters who were also sworn in. Fascinating.
Both the D.A. and the public defender were women. (The prosecutor told us after the trial was over that the accused had previous episodes of violence on his record, not admissible in our case as evidence.)
The judge had retired from the bench but was hearing cases on an unpaid volunteer basis to help with the court backlog.
It was heartrending to watch the details of a classic stalking-with-violence case unfold. The accused’s family and the victim’s family were both devastated.
I left with a great admiration for the working of the U.S. jury system. I’ve talked with many other former jurors since then. As a rule, people who served on juries in which a verdict was successfully rendered usually felt the system worked. People in which a verdict was not reached (deadlock, or settlement in the middle of the trial) usually felt otherwise.
The other interesting thing was how many people said to me during the trial, without knowing anything about the case since I couldn’t tell them, “Give the death penalty!” They had no idea how contrary that flip comment was to what we saw as our responsibility as a deliberative group.
mandrake @ 125
The only criminal law background I have, I’d rather not discuss…ha!
but, seriously, I’m just another novice that’s been fascinated by the political/legal implications of this whole affair and I’ve been righteously outraged from the beginning of the damage Cheney/Libby/BushCo has done to so many lives.
My understanding of the law, based on what I’ve found and followed of the individuals’ actions/careers, is that nearly any information can be sealed away indefinitely for reasons of natl security or defense. This has been exploited by the Bush admin and used to protect criminal activity or witnesses at times. Fitzgerald is under no obligation to disclose any findings of his investigations by report when he’s done. He has a long successful record of taking down criminal networks by working his way through co-conspirators by using indictments, guilt, cooperation, bargaining and other means to leverage guilty parties against each other. Any witness can be protected at any time, essentially, if it is shown to protect the case, lives, safety, natl security, state secrets or even a ‘juswanna’ excuse.
I don’t think Fitz is doing any politician any favor. I believe he is the most dedicated leader of a legal team that is based on integrity and the law. The downside of that is that his team will also respect the law when it comes to not telling us the stuff we want to know.
:-)
cbl @ 133
Didn’t know there was such a place. Think I’ll dump this site into ‘favorites’. Thanks!
twolf1 @ 132
Thanks!!
Kennedy Introduces Bill Requiring Congressional Approval For Iraq Escalation
Was a foreman on a jury once in a civil case- the presiding judge was a good lookin woman now on TeeVee.
The case involved a woman who was suing her employer because she was allegedly struck in the head by a ladder while getting something out of a closet- with the result that her sight was impaired. This was contradicted by other evidence that her sight was very poor before the alleged incident. We told her “no dice” but there was one juror who kept makin a general nuisance of himself and kept having little temper tantrums. I always suspected that counsel for the plaintiff had gotten to him- but couldn’t prove anything..
The plaintiff’s lawyer was ruddy faced and appeared to be suffering from hang overs daily. Counsel for the insurance company was a woman who was extremely professional and well prepared-
Struck me that the attorneys make a HUGE difference in the outcome.
*US sub colliding with Japanese ship in the straits of Hormuz.
*Russia using energy blackmail.
*Bush has lost the confidence of Ollie North.
*Former Reagan apppointee comparing Bush to Hitler.
*US carries out military strikes in Somalia for the second day in a row.
*New Saddam execution video surfaces.
*Israel threatens nukes against Iran.
To quote Pete Townshend:
“It’s all building up to something, something can only be redeemed with fire.”
-GSD
OT: Former Virginia governor Jim Gilmore is forming a presidential exploratory committee.
So, Gilmore is yet another “true conservative” who thinks none of the other potential candidates is as true a conservative as he is. His bona fides consist of a successful bid to eliminate the state property tax on personal vehicles that wrought havoc on the state budget.
Edmund: Oh, God…
mandrake @ 125
sorry that I rambled and missed answering the question. No, a trial would not be required and he might have avoided actually being charged if his cooperation helped in some way. My personal guess is that when he directed Fitz to the few hundred ‘lost’ emails in Cheney’s office, around the same time, that it might have moved him to an unindicted co-conspirator status OR his indictments have been filed under seal along and dealt with behind the scenes.
It’s not beyond methods of TeamFitz to use the media to work the case as it develops.
We might also want to consider a bill requiring Congressional approval of any expansion of U.S. military action into Africa.
twolf1 @ 142
If nothing else, it might distract BushCo from other forms of oversight and accountability that are more likely to bear fruit. (We can guess that Lieberman won’t be voting for this.)
I think someone in DC really needs to start talking about preventing a world war. Yo… Democrats!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 147
sounds good to me– it’s past time to rei(g)n in this maniacal bunch on their yippee-aye-o GWOT.
Bush ’surge’ crafted by aide who wanted to nuke North Korea in 1995
I have been called for several jury pools over the years but was only on one jury, a small case related to a furniture store. (I was amazed at how seriously the jury took those simple charges before finding for the defense.)
I worked in health care, in quality and then risk management. No one wants me on a jury. One jury pool I DIDN’T want on the jury because as part of my job I had been very much involved in a descrimination case that went to trial. (We won.) I answered questions in a manner that I hoped would get me kicked off – because I honestly did not think I could be sympathetic or honest with the person doing to suing. (I was kicked off.)
I now work part time for a law firm as a paralegal – and have sat in on a couple of jury selections, which is always interesting. In the six years I have been at the law firm there was only one case where the jury gave a bad decision – and one where the decision was iffy. The iffy decision was eventualy overturned by the judge, don’t know what happened on the other case.
Last year I was called for another jury pool. It was huge, and I knew immediately that it was some kind of big case. Turned out to be a murder trial. The process took all day and the questions were very interesting. Lots of people in that pool DID NOT want to be on that jury and answered questions in a manner that they hoped would get them out. I feel it is very important that we serve on jurys – and tried to be very honest with my answers. I think I would have been on that jury except for I had a very high number, almost at the end. Even so, they got within three people to me.
There were lots of people who were exempted because they had personal relationships with police or had bad interactions with the police. The tennor of the questions was whether you could honestly be critical of the police testimony – either way. Very interesting. This was the only jury pool where they did not ask me specific questions about my profession, which I thought was interesting.
EvilDrPuma @ 148
I hope we see a vote. I hope we see more of this. In the business world, the only way to fire an incompetent exec is to document, document, document. You start finding things to hold them accountable for, and document the crap out of their actions.
new thread
OT: Faithful Republican sidekick Jim DeMint endorses “true conservative” Mitt Romney.
True conservatives come in more flavors than Ben and Jerry’s these days.
Rayne @
47
Thanks lhp. Thanks Rayne. Jane. Christy. Marcy! Gotta get my book order in PDQ! Thanks everyone for covering this topic.
To me, this sort of thread is utterly mind-boggling. You gotta understand. In the 60’s, as a grad assistant, I was at times laborously hand-clipping little notches out of computer cards so they could be fed en masse into a room-sized monster of a computer, at a university that regarded itself as “cutting edge”.
Gaaaaaawwwwwwllllleeeeee geewhiz! Being able to sit here in my own comfy chair – yes, in my jammies (*blush*), sharing a cuppa with y’all, and be presented with a sterling-quality tutorial complete with wide-ranging, unfettered discussion on such subject matter, freely available to a huge community like FDL, instantaneously available.
wellll. it’s beyond surreal. it’s just plain fun! yeehaw!
f.a.n.t.a.s.t.i.c!
Keep those toobes free and open, folks. And democracy WILL survive after all, ’cause that genie is OUTTA the bottle for sure.
Now, back to savor the whole post & comments, & then re-read ’cause, altho I have served on juries, ianal, not even close, but i am fascinated by this stuff, and mightily encouraged as a citizen. ;->
p.s., do they ever ask prospective jurors, “Do you blog? If so, where & about what?” – heh ;->
I’ve been on several juries. One was a slip-and-fall civil case where, in deliberation, one woman said the plaintiff was a jerk. I though she was jumping to conclusions. It turned out we were not allowed to see evidence that the plaintiff had a bad track record, was colluding with his doctor to flim-flam the supermarket, etc., etc. Luckily his story was so sloppy he lost anyway. Stupid criminals.
I also was on a federal grand jury for a year. That was a bit discouraging, and maybe relevant to the Libby case. We had one indictment of a guy for causing damage by sending email to all the employees of his former firm. Three of us on the jury were very familiar with email and computers in general – the rest were not. We could see that the case was schlock, they could not. In the end, we approved the indictment 15-3, the only time in a year where there was that much ‘disagreement.’ We three thought the case had no chance – wrong! The feds won the case. WTF??? Then, several months later, I read that the case had been reversed by a judge on exactly the points we had made in the jury room. Relevance? The more ignorant and uninterested the jurors, the more the Libby team will want them. They might be able to bore the jury into an aquittal.
One last thought in EPUland
The Libby trial is only part of the enduring Fitsinvestigation that is still in the very beginning stages. We, the blogging world, MSM, nontraditional media, citizen journalists and world citizens are conducting our own jury selection by consensus of reason. We dismiss the extremely biased but even then we are mostly considerate enough to listen to their claims. We are beginning the selection of the prosecuters by election and deselection, again by consensus of the majority.
This process will take years to unfold and it was partially sparked by the paths SP Fitzgerald took in deciding what was in the scope of his prosecution and what was the responsibility of Congress, through the interests of the citizens, to pursue in the legal realm that was established for that purpose.
good news is, reading material is not only accepted, but encouraged.
:-)
rumi @ 139
Thanks for the background! I guess I’m of the opinion that Rove stinks worse than Libby, but I guess we’ll probably never know.
What about Armitage, I wonder? Last I heard, he was blaming himself for the leak.
Sorry for picking everyone’s brain. I just haven’t followed this as closely as you all have, quite obviously.
rumi @ 158
Interesting. You hit on several reasons why I’ve often felt the really good blogs (FDL especially!) share characteristics with peer-reviewed scientific research. What say you? Just curious.
mandrake @ 159
I’m extremely biased against the neocons (or by any other name) who took control of our government and have been working to do so over the past 3 decades. They slipped through accountability for 30 years and I think Armitage is another who had too much power in the shadows. This ain’t our daddy’s Iran/Contra. We’ll be the annoying little dog attatched to the ankles of those conspirators for the rest of their careers….all of them, neocon and non-neocon alike.
I think Armitage’s admission was a way to divert attention from someone else but he’s still complicit in the conspiracy..in my opinion
rumi 169
oohhhhh yeahhhh. you’ve got lotsa company rumi ;->
Late to the party – again
I was on a jury panel for a US District Court case involving conspiracy to smuggle cocaine from Columbia into the US. I was elected as chairman.
The case was presented so competently that I knew absolutely and without a single doubt of the guilt of the defendant. But You all should know this . . . every single member of that panel went through the evidence completely and thoroughly. Not everyone was convinced and I believe they were sincere in trying to do the right thing. We stayed locked in the jury room for nine days going over every single piece of evidence.
Finally after several straw votes we reached a guilty verdict. The defendant was subsequently sentenced to life in prison.
I’ll never forget that experience. It left me with both hope for the system and a little dread at how easy it is for a jury to over turn the the obvious. A simple prejudice from a panel member can mess up the whole deal – for either side. The lawyers have to have their shit together ( OJ notwithstanding).
Adie @ 160
Although I have extremely minimal experience to speak from, I’d say that it has advantages as well as similarities. The fascinating aspect of the better blogs, like the lake here, is that we are (if chosen anonymity) considered by our communicated thought rather than by our public name or professional reputation. That puts all of our words and ideas into a free-fire zone for anything from acceptance to rejection that is based on merit rather than credentials. I think it helps keep the genuine thinkers honest in that fame or notoriety doesn’t taint the responses received.
I’ve been on a couple of local criminal juries and one federal criminal jury (a tax-evasion case).
eddie @ 55
Young adults are under-represented generally. This is especially true of very young adults (college-agers), because most jury rules give an automatic exemption to college students. When I served on the Federal jury I was the only person in the panel under age 30 (I was 29 at the time). Their professors are a different, matter.
The most difficult charges to decide are those that involve the defendant’s state-of-mind. If there are two jurors who are holding out, they can reinforce each other and deadlock the jury. My tax-evasion jury was like that on two counts, because the IRS had not informed the defendant that the returns for two of the three years he was charged with were invalid. We convicted him for failing to file for the year he was informed about, hung on the other two counts.
I was pissed when I read the report on the sentencing of the defendant in that case. He got several years in Club Fed. In purely economic crimes like that one, I felt that he should have been fined the max, required to pay restitution to the IRS, and left working. Instead, he got prison time, no fine. His family ended up on AFDC, so we got to pay for his imprisonment and his family’s maintenance (such as AFDC was).
Absolutely. I’ve learned to accept jury decisions — they were there, they heard all the evidence that was admitted to the trial. No matter how outrageous it may seem, all we know is what the media chose to report. The jury got the jury instructions, the media never report the jury instructions. The instructions are critical to the deliberation.
So I refuse to get torqued about jury decisions. They were there, they did the best they could with what they were allowed to know and the instructions they were given.
BC
Adie @ 160
Adie – do you think the influence of the professional ego is the same factor in both realms?
I’ve been on military trials, run Article 32 hearings, and had one civilian trial in the jury. The last was most interesting, in that after the prosecution presented its case we jurors looked at each other and wondered why they stopped. It was a DUI trial where the arresting officer was evasive on the stand to the point of silliness, the witness that saw the defendant driving the car (the police arrested him a couple hours later on the sidewalk) was never called and the prosecutor presented an innuendo about an affair with one of the defense witnesses. No direct evidence put the guy in the car drunk (he certainly was when arrested, but that’s a different crime), and the circumstantial evidence was flimsy (stuff like “the hood felt warm”, on a cold night) and the defense had plausible explanations for each item. We took 15 minutes to acquit only because I polled the jurors individually in the jury room (as the foreman).
thanks for the primer, LHP – I’ll be back to read it later.
Thank you for all your coverage on the Plame affair.
Are you against Bush’s plan to escalate the war in Iraq? Add your name to the petition HERE
George Bush plans to announce his intention to escalate the war in Iraq by sending tens of thousands of more troops to pursue his flawed strategy. If he wants to ignore the advice of the military and the findings of the Iraq Study Group, he’s going to have to make his case and get the consent of the people through their elected representatives. Senator Kennedy has introduced legislation that makes the issue plain. It states that any substantial new commitment in Iraq requires a plan from the administration and explicit authorization from Congress.
Jane,
Please consider doing a post on Ted Kennedy’s legislation regarding war escalation in Iraq.
The anti-escalation caucus in this country is as close to unanimous as you will ever see on an issue and yet, no one but Kennedy is attempting to use it to hold President Bush accountable to the people’s will.
A post on Kennedy’s efforts can bring much needed attention, and a display of broad support, to the issue. He has a petition and is taking names of people who are in support. Thank you.
I served on three juries over a two week period quite a long time ago. Personally, it was an education, an eye-opening exprerience. The points of education I recall are:
1) You MUST put aside your personal beliefs when deciding on guilt or innocence
2) You MUST apply the law itself, regardless of your personal beliefs
3) The distinction between criminal and civil trials – the first requiring a unanimous vote, the second being decided by a 10-2 vote
One trial dealt with a street robbery where a man pulled a knife on someone. The details are fuzzy, but I think that we found the guy guilty, based on witnesses’s testimony. What was memorable about that trial was this: The defendant was black, we we had one black juror in the jury. Even though the evidence seems overwhelming against the defendant, this specific juror did argue for the defendant. The discussion centered around the seriousness of pulling out a knife on someone; her point
was that, in certain environments, that act itself was not intended to hurt, rather to warn. She eventually relented to “peer” pressure and the defendant was convicted.
The other trial involved, again, a robbery in a restaurant involving a gun this time. Shots were fired by the defendant, allegedly, at the ceiling as a warning. Again, the defendant
was black, and the star witness was a (white) waitress who was working there at the time. The defense attorney attempted to cast doubt on the witness’s familiarity with black people – was she around such folks much? One specific question that was posed by the prosecutor was: “Is this the man who robbed
the restaurant that night”, pointing to the defendant. The witness thought hard, and answered after a considerable pause,
“I think so”. As far as I was concerned, there went the “beyond a reasonable” doubt concept. There was no way that I would have voted to convict. It wasn’t long before the jury
was informed that the trial was over – the two sides had struck some sort of a “deal”: the defendant was going to jail for I don’t remember how long. I looked around the jury members, and there was disbelief. Many jurors chatted with the defense attorney afterward, and let him know that it was likely that
there would NOT be a conviction, based on what we had heard so far. He said, “Oh, man! Don’t tell me that!”
The third trial dealt with an orthodontist and his client. This was a civil trial. The client was suing for a botched job; she was asking for damages. What I recall about the case is that the orthodontist had all of the evidence on his side – lots of pictures before and after the procedure. All that the client had
was that she was in pain. No witnesses. Nothing else. We did not have much choice but to to acquit.
I was called more recently for jury duty, but did not serve. The trial would have lasted at least a month, and most prospective jurors,
including me, claimed hardship as the excuse (I had a vacation that I had set up and could not cancel). We sat at the waiting area for
three days. On the third day, we were all dismissed – out of a pool of about 80 people, they could not find 14 to serve on the case. It
must have been a bad one.
The jury dynamics was interesting…By and large, people did try to be fair. When someone strayed from the operating rules, they were
reminded by others. There was a lot of soul-searching; after all, this WAS serious business.
The frustrating thing at that time was that we could NOT take notes during the trial. Now the rules have changed, as I understand it; this
is a welcome development and should help make the process fairer.
One source of fear about the whole process, especially on criminal cases, is that the defendant is present during jury selection; NOT a concern off-hand, but he/she has access to each juror’s home address, etc. The fear is one of revenge, once he/she is convicted, serves the term and comes out. There must be cases of revenge on jurors…
Everyone should serve on a jury. There IS a certain competence that is required to serve on one, let’s not fool ourselves. Good commandof English, some good common sense, communication skills, ability to understand some basic legal concepts, etc.
WRT the questions in that Judges’ Benchbook, 8D would seem to me to overly constrain jurors. I assume the reason we have jury trials is so members of the community can decide in the moment that either the law in question is bogus or the defendant is getting railroaded. But judges regularly instruct juries to ignore their feelings about the law and just decide the narrow question of whether the defendant did what the prosecution claims. Or am I missing something?
Check out this National Review article on that punk Rick Santorum’s new job at an “America’s Enemies” think tank.
PLEASE TAKE NOTE of the banner at the top of the article!
http://article.nationalreview……VjODQwYmM=
Woops, the banner moved to within the article.
Oh, hell, it keeps changing. Anyway, if you look long enough you will see an ad for a Scooter Libby defense fund.
mandrake @ 176
thanks. I was wondering what I was looking for the first time. I’ve seen that ad on several sites of the ‘other side’ type that I venture into for research.
I hope he doesn’t end up a hero like Ollie.
This is a little late but I always like to share my jury experience. Twenty-five years ago, Oregon (circuit court) jury pools were chosen for an entire month and you had to report four days a week. Almost everyone in the pool ended up serving on several different juries. The month I was in the pool, two circuit court judges had also been selected, and each of them did serve on at least one jury.
I served on a LONG civil case that ended up being a lot more contentious to the jury than apparently everyone else thought it should have been. (They had to send out for sandwiches for dinner while we were deliberating because everyone had assumed we would have a verdict before dinnertime.)
The other big case I served on was an ugly arson case in which one victim was a professor at the University of Oregon. I worked in the same department at the time, as did another juror, and my sister had been an acquaintance of the other victim for many years. I still can hardly believe we weren’t disqualified, but we weren’t.
They select juries differently in Oregon now, and I live in a county with a smaller population, so I’ve been in the jury pool several times since, but have only served on one jury. It was a MINOR drug crime, and the 12 of us unanimously felt our time and tax dollars were being wasted by prosecuting this young woman, but we found her guilty anyway because the evidence was quite clear.
rumi @
166
Maybe I’m being unrealistic to some degree, because I know ego drives a lot of people, and makes ‘em do strange things. But at least in the scientific realm we’ve inhabited, the ‘pure science’ won out eventually, always. Because of the importance of being able to replicate results of experimental work, anyone who tried to fake results was regarded as kinda crazy. I’m not saying it’s never happened, but generally the system is self-correcting over time. Most scientists, I think, are seeking truth. Any who deliberately fake results will have their career evaporate in a hurry, once they’re found out.
Till now. I assume things will right themselves eventually, but the blending of political agendas, business interests, & science has approached alarming proportions in the past several years, imho. Not among any of our colleagues that I know of – but… well, I’m immediately suspicious when I hear about the oil companies supporting research which just happens to label global warming bunk, FDA suddenly saying cloning is perfectly safe, etc. And yet they produce no real proof.
Likely as not, they’ll be proven wrong eventually, but this recent trend is alarming, if only because of the possibly irretrievable harm that will be done before folks prove the hokum is what they suspected in the 1st place. If they’re careful and thorough, it takes others awhile to prove what’s correct, whereas the mercenaries can just make a claim and collect their check… (short & brutal description, but maybe you get the point).
I hope you see this eventually, and that it makes some sense. It’s been kind-of a long day here. STILL haven’t had time to read the whole thread the way I’d promised, dang! Please stay in touch..
Judge Walton shed a little more light on some of the questions in this thread, and underlined some of looseheadprop’s points, in a ruling issued Tuesday, which denied an application by 19 news organizations for full access to the voir dire courtroom, and for daily audio recordings of the trial proceedings. FYI, I’ll just excerpt from cboldt’s helpful blog hosting of the filing – see link below – some of the points of interest:
[May make for enough space for all the itinerant legal tourists, eh, lhp?] Judge Walton states that the trial will be taking place in Courtroom 16 (not Courtroom 5, as the schedule stated, although 5 may be the overflow courtroom). Two pertinent footnotes:
Judge Walton says they expect over 100 requests for press credentials for this trial (at slow-downs in the proceedings, I think FDL could probably put their hard-earned credential to good use just by eavesdropping on the antics of the mainstream media horde…). The length of the trial is estimated as follows (Wednesday’s status conference may well reveal further specifics regarding this and other matters):
http://noeasyanswer.blogspot.com/