Fitz?

Mornning Pach. Good post.

Morning Brown and Serve, nice round zero.

You should see “Deliver Us From Evil”……

Well done. I am a liberal because I couldn’t be any other way; it feels like it is hard-wired into my consciousness. I can’t understand why more people don’t have the same framework. Since I am not a Christian, or any other religion, it confounds me I’m in the group that is accused of being bad for having no basis for my ethical values. On the contrary, I think this is the only life I get, so I respect mine as well as all others. that’s why I’m a liberal.

Why I am a liberal…. Well growing up my family lived below the poverty line for practically my entire adolescence but my parents were too stubborn to go on welfare. My dad did the best he could to support a family of eight but there were long periods when he was laid off from work. Then there are people “who were born on third base and act like they hit a triple”.

My experiences in the Air National Guard (mission: a place for the sons of the politically-well-connected to avoid Vietnam) cemented my liberal leanings. I was lucky to get in after spending two years on the waiting list (I put my name on the list the week I turned 17). My sister happened to work for my local draft board and they were pulling folders from the file drawer containing my file at the time I was offered a slot. So you can bet I hear violins when conservatives whine about things like capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes. They don’t know how lucky they are.

Wonderful post, simply wonderful…

Thanks Pach,

Jack

Good morning all. I was raised Catholic too, but one can’t deny it has a extemely poor history. I am now independent when it comes to spiritual ideas.

John Edwards’ ‘08 website is johnedwards.com. But the campaign didn’t buy edwards08.com. Hillary Clinton did. Click on edwards08.com and you end with Hillary Clinton

How can I contemplate the divine when I can’t even figure out what in the name of hop-scotching god Harold Ford is doing on the Sunday shows?

I too, believe in a serious side to life. What i don’t like is other people judging me by my lack of association with a church or religion. Like somehow, that in itself makes me a bad or lesser person.

For me actual Christianity is all about the ‘Golden Rule’. And I still refer to myself as Catholic. Albeit, a weird, or unorthodox Catholic perhaps.

I was raised a catholic by first generation Italian parents. I had to go to church every Sunday until I was 18. I stopped right after that birthday. I always found priests to be creepy old men.

I’m a liberal becuase I believe in social justice. I believe in equality, civil rights and the protection they give from prejudice and hate, and the freedoms that the Constitution grant to all citizens. I also believe that the mark of a great society is how they treat the less fortunate who have no other recourse to help themselves.

My parents instilled these beliefs in me. I’m sure it had to do with them growing up with immigrant parents who had little education, and no where to turn when things got rough. Also, the many conversations with my grandmom at her kitchen table about her life once she came here were another huge influence.

Why am I a Progressive? Because I believe in a “square deal”; a “fair deal” and want a “new deal”. And I don’t believe in unprovoked wars based upon lies, and I don’t particularly care for concentration camps either. And there are other reasons why some of my dear Republican friends and family members refer to me as a liberal.

“Face the Nation” Ch. 5, 8:30 a.m. Guests: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-San Francisco.

Others may have noticed this, but when did San Francisco become a state?

I wear the new Scarlett Letter.

ATHEIST.

To me, religion is not the SOLUTION, it is the PROBLEM.

I am a Liberal because I believe in the common welfare for all and am willing to commit to upholding those values whether rich or poor.

I came from a very Catholic family on my mothers’ side, with two great aunts as nuns. My dad, an atheist, whom I always worried as a child would be in Limbo because he was not babtized, should he die. I had a aunt, she’s passed on, who suffered nervous breakdowns, shock treatments even, because after 5 kids (1 slightly retared) she got herself fixed and the priest would not forgive her.

pach, I believe this is going to be one entertaining thread

“why am I a liberal”

man I wish the edit button wouldn’t time out for this thread cuz I’m sure I’m gonna want to add and edit my entry as I think about it

anyway, here goes

I started out my life along with my dad, strong military, “America, may she always be always be right but America right or wrong”

in the viet nam days, before I was eligiable, while everyone of my generation was burning the flag I was wearing it proudly on my back.

I loved my country then, I love her now, hwoever then I wasn’t willing to do anything about the wrongs of government we know exist…it was “my country right or wrong”

I don’t know what happened, when I realized part of being a patriot is fixing what’s wrong…it’s not “love it or leave it”, it’s “love it and fix it”

I think I was in first or second grade, I don’t remember…there was a boycott of some kind at my public school…one of my friends was a teachers son and he wasn’t participating in the boycott.

I asked him why not and he asked me “perris, if the school wanted to keep you out because you were jewish, what would you think of people that boycotted the school becuase they were about to let you in.

I didn’t know where he was going, I didn’t even know the boycott was about segregation, but when he pointed out to me the actual political ramifications I switched my position on the boycott.

man I was young

later on in life, while I was wearing that flag on my denim jacket, (I am certain I was the first and I mean that seriously), I was insensed someone would want to burn it…why wouldn’t they just leave the country? I asked myself.

I was certain I would be first to go when called to our armed forces.

Then in conversation I find out the people burning the flag are doing what the founders wanted them to do, they were making their political position known as load as they can.

this is the very thing our forefathers died to protect, this is what the soldiers that laid down their lives died for, to protect our rights to speak out if we believe our government is abusing our nation.

I’m still somewhat a conservative, however in the real sense of the word.

I am a proponent of a strong military not a weakened one, a proponent of fiscal responsibility not irresponsibility, of payig for programs with the dividends from that program

and the constitution…man, I love that document…it’s as if some aliens wrote it, it seems timeless, it seems like the authors were at times writing against themselves for the good of the country and her future.

a conservative is supposed to protect the principles of the constitution…for instance, I am not a “progressive” when it comes to gun legislation and I was abhorred when they confiscated fire arms in new orleans after katrina hit.

katrina galvanized my feelings that we really need to protect our right to keep and bear arms.

rights can be rescinded by our past, a criminal doesn’t have the rights others have, he’s forfeit some rights..so I temper my beliefs as far as guns and I am certain there has to be gun control and restriction, but when the neo cons were over running our country I was convinced we must make sure we don’t loose our rights to keep arms.

and abortion

I would never take a womens choice from her, but man it pains me when a women does choose abortion

I am an unplanned child you know, and if there were legal abortion I might not be here today

I was in micro biology class…a college student.

my professor was the very first intellect I ever heard who was against a womens rights to abortion.

his conviction was based as follows;

“there is no other creature on the planet with 46 chromosomes, a fetus has 46 and is surely a human being”

I can argue with him from other angles, for instance “you cannot force a women to be an unwilling host to any creature, human being or not”

but his argument is certainly powerfull and I am surprised more anti abortion don’t use that line of reasoning in their discussion.

anyway, I could go on and on why I am indeed a liberal, most people call me the furthest to the left liberal they have ever met simply because I oppose the reagan-bush brand of conservatism with venom

yet I believe I am actually more conservative then liberal, it’s just that the bar has been moved so far to the right that I look like I’m left.

hows that saying go?

“been down so long it looks like up”?

the conservatives have been so destructive being non destructive looks like you are a liberal

anyway, I could go on forever so instead just gonna rap it up here

thanx for the thread pach

I, too, am a Catholic, though my parish priest may not know my name. And, I went to a Catholic Elementary school. For those 8 years we were taught morality and compassion. Catholic schools generally have a negative connotation but from someone who experienced it, let me tell you that it’s ill-deserved. Not a negative word(or any word) was uttered about homosexuals, divorced people or anyone who isn’t Catholic. We were never taught to hate. Instead, we were taught to have compassion and a responsibility to do good. One sermon after the reading of the Good Samaritan was these few words “The meaning of this reading is ‘When you ask someone how they are and they say ‘not good’, you ask ‘how can I help’”. That was said around 30 years ago and I still remember it and was deeply affected by it.
I admit it – I am a do-gooder. And, I have always been proud to be an American. This country has been the leader in human rights and compassion for many years, and I have been profoundly disturbed by the changes of the last 6.
So, this liberal wears the label proudly and I pray that we can return to be the country I love.

pach,

being corny is vastly underrated, and there’s certainly nothing wrong with being serious, especially if you aren’t serious all the time, and something tells me you aren’t.
i wasn’t raised catholic. my parents were southern baptist, which is what i became. i left it for the episcopal church for various reasons, including the ceremony and symbolism.
i, too, finally left the church. it was the only honest thing for me to do.
too many christians today pay little or no heed to jesus’ teachings. his “render unto caesar the things that are caesar’s and unto god the things that are god’s,” and “take all ye have and give to the poor,” these admonishments and a lot of other things he said are much more resonant with liberal politics than conservative politics.
so, to cut to the chase, i came to liberal politics by virtue of having been raised by christians much the same as you.
also, i think that we do well to restrain ourselves in how we criticize church goers. there is a percentage of them who can be persuaded to see that there is a resonance between the teachings of jesus and liberal politics. raising the minimum wage, providing decent health care for every american, especially children, these are about as christian as any government could be asked to be.

Charles Pierce @ 9

How can I contemplate the divine when I can’t even figure out what in the name of hop-scotching god Harold Ford is doing on the Sunday shows?

you don’t suppose it has anything to do with MSM lieberman-like misdirection do you?

solai @ 18

I, too, am a Catholic, though my parish priest may not know my name. And, I went to a Catholic Elementary school. For those 8 years we were taught morality and compassion. Catholic schools generally have a negative connotation but from someone who experienced it, let me tell you that it’s ill-deserved. Not a negative word(or any word) was uttered about homosexuals, divorced people or anyone who isn’t Catholic. We were never taught to hate. Instead, we were taught to have compassion and a responsibility to do good. One sermon after the reading of the Good Samaritan was these few words “The meaning of this reading is ‘When you ask someone how they are and they say ‘not good’, you ask ‘how can I help’”. That was said around 30 years ago and I still remember it and was deeply affected by it.
I admit it – I am a do-gooder. And, I have always been proud to be an American. This country has been the leader in human rights and compassion for many years, and I have been profoundly disturbed by the changes of the last 6.
So, this liberal wears the label proudly and I pray that we can return to be the country I love.

And Catholic nuns and priests don’t come knocking on your door, making a pest of themselves and giving you literature and trying to talk you into something either…

fahrender @ 20

you don’t suppose it has anything to do with MSM lieberman-like misdirection do you?

the vile emotion that courses through my veins when the mane of lieberman is invoked cannot be contained

Great post Pach! Like you, my journey as a gay person has also led me away from the church. I was raised in a Protestant home and truly took to heart the Gospel of Social Justice; the teaching of Jesus are deeply ingrained in my philosophy of life.

I converted to Roman Catholicism in my 20s and served the church faithfully for years, as a Eucharistic minister, a Lector, a Cantor, and I sang in the choir every Sunday. Then our parish priest was transferred and the new priest informed me that my “kind” was no longer welcome at the altar per order of the Bishop and Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) because I was intrinsically morally evil. I could sit in the congregation but not take communion or serve anymore unless I repented of the sin of being myself and took a lifelong vow of chastity. It was made clear to me that I would watched carefully for any signs of backsliding. So I left.

Another decade in the Episcopal church helped me to overcome my deep sense of betrayal and rejection but by then I realized that I didn’t really believe in anything anymore but the sayings of Jesus and they are clearly contradictory to much of what the official “church” does nowadays.

My liberalism was born out the compassionate challenges of Jesus’ teachings and I continue to work with the poor in my chosen profession, advocating, struggling, fighting for them, and standing in solidarity with them as much as I can.

Ironically, the people that I end up fighting against the most to help the poor and the sick and the downtrodden are those who loudly profess to the world their supposed “Christianity”.

I am not painting with a broad brush here — I know many kind, decent Christians who follow the teachings of Christ and model their lives on his, and I admire and love them. But for every one of them I know about a dozen to two dozen more who follow the religion of bibliolatry, never speaking without prefacing it with “The Bible says….” as if a book could actually talk and ignoring the 2,000 -year chasm between culture and language that makes understanding tentative, at best.

The rest follow the religion of “Conservative Republicanism” and often espouse positions that are so directly contradictory to what Jesus is traditionally reported to have said and done that I wonder if they have ever actually listened in church or read the good book themselves at all.

Liberalism for many of us is grounded in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, whether we still belong to a church or not, and the principals of the Enlightenment. That makes being lectured by Obama and others about being intolerant and anti-religious galling at best.

I am proud to be a liberal who follows the teachings of Jesus without being a Christian and for supporting freedom for all as embodied in the philosophy of the Enlightenment. It seems to be a little more important, to me anyway, to walk the walk of my beliefs in my life rather than just talk the talk of the Bible, all the while hating those who are different from me as so many do now in the name of Christ. Namaste.

Wow, really interesting comments. I had no idea I would provoke all this.

RE Norman Conquest at 14, “When did San Francisco become a state?” The Sunday line-up has been cut-and-pasted from the Contra Costa Times, a California paper which IDs California representatives by their city. In today’s posting, they ID Pelosi as being from San Francisco–and Waxman as being from Los Angeles. Here’s the same feature as presented in today’s WashPost, with both Pelosi and Waxman IDed as “D-Calif.:”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..02359.html

Pachacutec @ 24

Wow, really interesting comments. I had no idea I would provoke all this.

now you have to respond to everyone…you have your work cut out for yourself

Good a.m. fellow traveling liberals,

I’ve always considered St. Patrick to be Ireland’s first colonizer. Lay down the tracks of Christianity, colonize the mind — especially as the Vatican political structure mastered the art so well — and the British military colonizers have their blueprint ready for a multi-century collusively colonized shock and awe.

Although I am not a Christian, there is no shortage of Catholic colonialism in my family’s history either. What I learned from youthful grade school placement (1970s) in a Catholic reeducation internment center, was that the Church, as colonizer, was very adept at teaching you that all good in the world came from it and all bad came from you.

The fact is, there is nothing written in that great piece of literature known as the Bible, that is not an organic expression of humanity, warts and all. Similarly, “the Church” does not perform or achieve good works/deeds that are not otherwise appropriations of preexisting organic expressions of either the good will of an “alter boy” or some other fellow traveler in civil society following an innate sense of the golden rule.

sláinte,
cl

Future of Iraq: The spoils of war
How the West will make a killing on Iraqi oil riches

Iraq’s massive oil reserves, the third-largest in the world, are about to be thrown open for large-scale exploitation by Western oil companies under a controversial law which is expected to come before the Iraqi parliament within days.

The US government has been involved in drawing up the law, a draft of which has been seen by The Independent on Sunday. It would give big oil companies such as BP, Shell and Exxon 30-year contracts to extract Iraqi crude and allow the first large-scale operation of foreign oil interests in the country since the industry was nationalised in 1972.

Oh, and good mornin’ all!

I was raised in a conservative family and considered myself a Republican until I went to college. I hooked up with the Young Americans for Freedom and was observing a crowd of students jeering at some conservative speaker. The YAFfer next to me said it was a crowd of “commies.” I rea;ized that we simply didn’t see things the same way. I respected the students and thought their viewpoint, whatever the details, deserved to be listened to and considered.
I’ve always felt that if a person makes a point, regardless of whether it’s a completely insane point or whether it makes eminent sense, the person should go away feeling that she was able to make her case, tha she was listened to and her points were sincerely considered.

Check out the Jefferson Bible. He, like you, believed in the message of Jesus, but did not diefy Jesus. In writing the Jefferson Bible, TJ took out everything supernatural and left in all of the message of caring for your fellow humans.

I am a jewish born atheist. I have been known on several occaissions to say that while I believe that the bible belongs in the fiction section of the library, I believe it to be possibly the greatest owners manual for a conscience ever published.

That makes 3 things that I can say, for certain, I have in common with Thomas Jefferson. We’re both atheists (or at least secularists), we’re both in agreement with the lessons in humanity found in the bible, we’re both very, very liberal. (That’s 2 out of three in common with that carpenter you mentioned.)

what in the name of hop-scotching god Harold Ford is doing on the Sunday shows?

silly hippies,
C-E-N-T-R-I-S-T
gotta have b-a-l-a-n-c-e, doncha know ?

excellent post Pacha (fahrender nails it on the corny thingy)

twolf1 @ 28

Future of Iraq: The spoils of war
How the West will make a killing on Iraqi oil riches

Iraq’s massive oil reserves, the third-largest in the world, are about to be thrown open for large-scale exploitation by Western oil companies under a controversial law which is expected to come before the Iraqi parliament within days.

The US government has been involved in drawing up the law, a draft of which has been seen by The Independent on Sunday. It would give big oil companies such as BP, Shell and Exxon 30-year contracts to extract Iraqi crude and allow the first large-scale operation of foreign oil interests in the country since the industry was nationalised in 1972.

Oh, and good mornin’ all!

Ah… now we’re getting down to “it”.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 32

twolf1 @ 28

Future of Iraq: The spoils of war
How the West will make a killing on Iraqi oil riches

Iraq’s massive oil reserves, the third-largest in the world, are about to be thrown open for large-scale exploitation by Western oil companies under a controversial law which is expected to come before the Iraqi parliament within days.

The US government has been involved in drawing up the law, a draft of which has been seen by The Independent on Sunday. It would give big oil companies such as BP, Shell and Exxon 30-year contracts to extract Iraqi crude and allow the first large-scale operation of foreign oil interests in the country since the industry was nationalised in 1972.

Oh, and good mornin’ all!

Ah… now we’re getting down to “it”.

it wasn’t about having the oil it was about controlling the oil

WE DON’T NEED FOREIGN PETROLEUM

we can be energy independent in five years and THAT is what has to happen

Oklahoma kiddo @ 32

Ah… now we’re getting down to “it”.

See… the war will pay for itself.

very well said pach. as a retired catholic, I have similar sentiments. i’m not sure I am a liberal. being raised by two FDR Democrats, i probably just fell into it.

Twolf @ 28, Why else are we hanging around In Iraq. Riverbend had a blog Dec. 29 where she saysEnd of another Year… You know your country is in trouble when: #6. Your country is purportedly ’selling’ 2 million barrels of oil a day, but you are standing in line for 4 hours for black market gasoline for the generator.

morning, all – coffee anyone?

Perris @ 33

it wasn’t about having the oil it was about controlling the oil

WE DON’T NEED FOREIGN PETROLEUM

we can be energy independent in five years and THAT is what has to happen

perris, OK & Twolf1,

If you are not familiar w/Amory Lovins, please check out the link. I was captivated and transported (briefly) out of my decades long fossil fuel depression when I heard his speech to the Commonwealth Club. Of course we can and need to be energy independent and significantly free of fossil fuels. The blueprint for getting there is the amazing part.

http://www.commonwealthclub.or…..audio.html
http://www.commonwealthclub.or…..eleasedate

slainte,
cl

God Morning Everybody. I am a liberaltarian and for candy money I use to steal the change from the collection plate. I couldn’t buy that other crap, even back then.

Why am I a liberal? I grew up in the south in the sixties. I can remember seeing water fountains labled “colored” and not understanding why they couldn’t drink from the same fountain that I could. I went to a Baptist church, and I remember watching Martin’s “I have a dream” speech on television and wondering if my preacher was reading from the same bible King was. I’m married to a Catholic gal these days, and while I find them wanting in a lot of ways (most especially in their treatment of homosexuals), I find them remarkably tolerant.

I remember Jack Kennedy being gunned down . . . and Bobby . . . and Martin . . . and even George Wallace (assassination as a political tool). I remember the convention of 1968 and the violence in Chicago. I remember my daddy going on strike as a child, and I remember going on strike as an adult; if you want to mark where Democrats went wrong, it’s when they stopped supporting unions(think of their cravenness during the air controllers strike), and thus the working man.

I remember Dick Nixon’s subversion of democracy that continues to this day — Cheney, the Bushes, Rumsfeld, they’re all Nixon’s creations.

And boy, do I remember Vietnam, and as I inched towards the age of 18, wondering if my number would be called (I missed the draft by one year). I don’t blame anyone for trying to get out of going to Vietnam, Republican or Democrat; what I find galling are those that either refuse to own up to it, like Clinton, or worse, are gung-ho to kill everyone else’s children, like most of the Republican party leadership, and most of the Vietnam era media elite — and the ones that are reviled, like Dan Rather, are the ones that were over there getting shot at. Al Gore may not have been a combat grunt, but he was over there in the thick of it, and he volunteered to go.

I’m proud to be a liberal; I believe in social justice, racial equality, sexual equality, helping others. Back in the day I could see some good in the Republican’s philosophy of smaller government and fiscal responsibility — still do, and I hope we can steal that issue from them, but those beliefs lay on the side of the road, side-swiped by a dry-drunken president at the wheel.

I don’t know if our country will survive the next two years, but if we don’t, and the storm troopers ever come for me, I’ll be damned if I’ll deny my beliefs.

It’s Bobby Kennedy’s fault. That I’m a liberal, that is…

Because Pach said it was an open thread, I’ll let you know that the redwing blackbirds are back in town. I’m looking out my window at about 20 of them at the bird feeders.

Well said. I was raised Catholic too. I attended grades k through 5 at St. Francis Cabrini. I did the confirmation and first confession and the whole deal. I am no longer Christian either nor do I subscribe to any other superstitious dogma.
I am not liberal either. If you must categorize me politically, I suppose you could call me Progressive with a strong Liberttarian streak. I had voted mostly republican until 1992 when I saw Newt and the neocon movement taking over the party. I screamed, begged, cajoled and persuaded my fellow republicans to see what was happening but they either refused to see or welcomed the changes.
I have allied myself with the Democratic party because they are less insane than the current incarnation of the republican party. I voted straight Democratic in 2000, 2002, 2004 and 2006 because W. creeps me out. There are a couple of issues which I can’t reconcile that keeps me from becoming a full fledged liberal Democrat, the number one being that too many liberals still feel that the best way to stop violence in this country is to take away everybodys’ guns. Now I am not a huge fan of such easy access to firearms but the libertarian in me doesn’t trust the government enough to allow the military and police to have the only access to firearms. I firmly believe that when the second ammendment was put into the Constitution of the United States of America, they weren’t talking about repelling the British as Rosie O’Donnell would have you believe, nor were they talking about hunting. “A well regulated militia, being necessary for the maintenance of a free state….”, to me means that our founders knew about the corruption that comes with power and didn’t want future generations to have no recourse when it inevitably happened.
I remian an ally to the Democratic party but be warned: There are a lot of people in this country like me, who, as true independents owe no loyalty to the Democrats. I helped elect them this time, even volunteering and fund raising but I owe them nothing. If, (when) they get out of line, I’ll turn on them just like I did the republicans because though I find the Libertarians no tax policy ridiculous and unworkable, one line comes to mind, “There is no problem in this country that more freedom cannot assuage” Until we have a viable third party, there is nothing to keep the other two honest.
Sorry about the dissertation.

I am a liberal because I was born with a heart and a brain and I always thought it would be a good idea if I used them.

well, if we’re gonna talk about Iraqi Oil . . .

http://www.juancole.com/2006/1…..a-ben.html

comments are worth the read as well

I am a liberal because Jefferson, Madison, and Franklin were. I believe in Jeffersonian government as it was designed (mostly by those 3). Views which are not liberal are not in keeping with the intent of our founders. If the root word of authority is author, then the authors of the founding doctrine of our system of government are the authorities on the matter. They were liberals.

Oklahoma kiddo @
32

twolf1 @ 28

Future of Iraq: The spoils of war
How the West will make a killing on Iraqi oil riches

Iraq’s massive oil reserves, the third-largest in the world, are about to be thrown open for large-scale exploitation by Western oil companies under a controversial law which is expected to come before the Iraqi parliament within days.

The US government has been involved in drawing up the law, a draft of which has been seen by The Independent on Sunday. It would give big oil companies such as BP, Shell and Exxon 30-year contracts to extract Iraqi crude and allow the first large-scale operation of foreign oil interests in the country since the industry was nationalised in 1972.

Oh, and good mornin’ all!

Ah… now we’re getting down to “it”.

it seems to me that those people are getting ahead of themselves. how many years is it going to be before this insurgency thingy cools off? how big is our surge? will it last longer than the insurgency’s surge? won’t our surge prolong the insurgency’s surge? i’ll bet we get a really stiff resistance to our surge!
so BP, Shell and Exxon can hold their breath for ten or so years and then the erections of the oil derricks can rise and the drilling can begin.

I’m a liberal because:

-My father, who grew up poor, would never have made it to college if not for the GI Bill.

-Having worked on reservations and in the inner city, I know the playing field in this country is far from level.

-I have held the hands of people dying alone, because of intolerance, of AIDS.

-Wealth isn’t intrinsically bad, but policies that allow a privileged few to hoard it are.

-We say, “Never again,” yet did nothing in Rwanda and do nothing in Darfur.

-Logic, reason, facts, and ethics are the basis of policy.

-The measure of a country is how it treats the vulnerable, at home and everywhere.

I want to second the point, upthread, that decent, human values precede any particular religious affiliation, in my view. I simply wrote as I did because the cradle of my developing moral sensibility as a kid came from Catholicism.

Wonderful post, Pachacutec.

I hate that the posts I’d really like to thoughtfully respond to seem to go up when I don’t have time to respond. Does anyone actually read and respond to old threads once new ones go up? I know things are different at different blogs, so that’s why I’m asking.

Good morning.

I have been a religous vagrant. I was raised Luthern/Missouri Synod (it was the closest church and my mother’s best friend went there), went to Prosetant bible camp (I went with a neighbor), attended Wed. night Babtist bible camp with my best friend, and then switched to Catholic when I got married. And last attended a born again church where my mother wanted to go because of the same friend that took her to the Lutheran church.

The problem with them all is not one of them urged people to take care of the poor or to listen to the forgiving words of Jesus. NOOOO. They all told me that if I strayed even a little bit from the straight and narrow, I would go straight to hell. No detours. And their church (whichever one I was attending at the time) was the one and only one — there were no other truly godlike churches.

Nonesense. Now I worship God’s creations – birds, grass, trees, sky — one cannot be closer to heaven than outside. When I see these huge monsters of churches all decked in gold and such, I see man’s ego and bragging about his/her faith is better than the next church. And attending the born again church with their jaquars and Cadillacs in the parking lot, I saw rich people fawning all over each other. Yuck.

Digby over at Hullaballoo summed it up quite succinctly:

I am a liberal because that is the political philosophy of freedom and equality. I am a progressive because that is the political path to a better future. I am a member of the DemocratIC party because that is the party that stands for freedom, equality and progress.

If there were more candidates like Bernie Sanders, I would be a socialist-alas, I’m in Kansas-I agree with Kurt Vonnegut when he says that socialism has gotten a bad rap. Being a socialist only means you think that everyone has the right to eat.

Anyway, that’s why I’m a liberal. Freedom. Equality. Justice. Progress.

Real. Effing. Simple.

Morning all.

Good post, Pach. Looks as if a lotta pups feel that way too. I’m enjoying the read. ;->

From a fairly young age, I’ve always had a hard time understanding how some people who claimed to be deeply religious, to the point of insisting God “spoke” to them and “told” them to do what they were doing, considered themselves to be pious, and yet claimed folks with other beliefs were arrogant.

Once, I asked a fundamentalist minister’s wife just how she and her husband handled situations in which members of their congregation had disagreements about what was “right”, and each insisted God spoke directly to them, informing their own personal beliefs.

“Uh, that can be a problem,” said she. I dropped the subject, and we remained friends, although she always looked at me kinda strangely thereafter.

I suppose most would call me a secular humanist. I have deeply held beliefs, but often wonder at the various definitions of “religious”, especially when the term is used in an exclusive sense. I will always be mystified by those who can, seemingly with a clear conscience, call themselves “pro-life”, yet act with complete malice toward the living world around them, human and otherwise.

I don’t mean this to sound unduly negative. I respect and appreciate any beliefs folks hold which help to sustain them spiritually and, especially, to treat the rest of the world with respect and kindness.

P.S. And I, too, am a liberal because of what those churches taught me — they taught me what NOT to be. I often think what would Jesus think if he entered those churches and heard them yelling their demands for obedience.

I’m really sick and tired of this “God Bless America” crap. I’m with Howard Zinn when he says, why not say god bless everyone everywhere. Like why should Americans think they only have favoritism with god.

Nothing corny about this post, my friend. Whatever makes people to want to reduce suffering in the world should be recognized as valuable. I’m not Christian myself by wish anyone moved by the words and example of Jesus good luck in taking back their faith (or its public, institutional, rhetorical manifestations) from the reactionary bigots who have hijacked it these past few decades.

In case anyone is interested, I think this is a worthwhile read. It’s by Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori:
Evangelistic Listening

Renee — I, too, often get to threads just when I have a short timeframe to join in.

I have at time responded to old threads. Especially the recipe ones and ‘Pull Up a Chair” threads. This might be a good one though to come back to add a comment or two.

GrandmaJ @ 50

Good morning.

I have been a religous vagrant. I was raised Luthern/Missouri Synod (it was the closest church and my mother’s best friend went there), went to Prosetant bible camp (I went with a neighbor), attended Wed. night Babtist bible camp with my best friend, and then switched to Catholic when I got married. And last attended a born again church where my mother wanted to go because of the same friend that took her to the Lutheran church.

The problem with them all is not one of them urged people to take care of the poor or to listen to the forgiving words of Jesus. NOOOO. They all told me that if I strayed even a little bit from the straight and narrow, I would go straight to hell. No detours. And their church (whichever one I was attending at the time) was the one and only one — there were no other truly godlike churches.

Nonesense. Now I worship God’s creations – birds, grass, trees, sky — one cannot be closer to heaven than outside. When I see these huge monsters of churches all decked in gold and such, I see man’s ego and bragging about his/her faith is better than the next church. And attending the born again church with their jaquars and Cadillacs in the parking lot, I saw rich people fawning all over each other. Yuck.

Well spoken! There is nothing worse IMO than hypocrisy and these people have it in spades. I am a graphic artist and a lot of our clients are churches. The past two years have seen every one of them trying for mega church status. One even went so far as to have me make up a “pledge book” which would make donating to support this huge undertaking easier. Some of the suggestions to eek out more money from the congregation included: “Skip one meal per week and donate that money to the church” and “Take daughter’s babysitting money and donate it to the church”. Sickening. I never so “Blessed are the wealthy” in the bible not have I read “How blessed are the warlike of spirit”. Absolutely disgusting.

I never really thought about a label for myself until I hit around age 40,and the political divides in this country became so polarized. Of course there’s always been a divide,maybe it’s just that I only got informed enough to see it and feel it first hand by then.

I left religion a long time ago. Even as a child I never really bought that only Christian people have morals and values and that you had to have church and that particular religion to have those things. That’s sort of silly I think,you either have a sense of what’s right and wrong or you don’t. And when it comes to wrong,some stuff just isn’t negotiable,no matter what a book or “leader”says about it. I also never liked the idea of having to have a whole series of “middlemen”to get to God. If I’m a child of God,and God loves me,the rest should come fairly easy,as far as a relationship goes.

During Iran/Contra it occured to me that the US government doesn’t ever seem to back leaders in other countries who want what’s best for the most people. And,in backing evil bastards,it always ends up biting this nation on the ass. Saddam,Osama,Noriega,those guys got to where they were with our help,then they end up being our most evilest of enemies. And in recent history,the same damned names keep popping up in relation to those evil world leaders,like Rummy,Cheney,Negroponte,North,Kissinger,etc,etc. Methinks THEY are the problem,or at least most of it.

In reality,I think most Americans are socially liberal(we don’t honestly care about people’s sex lives or religion unless those things are used to hurt others),and fiscally conservative(we want the government to spend our money wisely and well,investing in our citizens and their future.We don’t want the gov’t to be stingy and mean about that). This of course goes against what the Wise Ones inside the Beltway tell us,but it’s not reality for most of America.

I guess I’m a liberal mostly because it seems like it’s been liberals who have pushed for better lives for everyone,not just a select few. I believe that eliminating poverty,hunger,disease (and their underlying causes)will help end wars,crime,hatred and suffering.

Lindey Graham is blaming the generals for Iraq.

Oops! I wanted to add that I got some subtle revenge on one of them. They wanted me to make an illustrated presentation for their stockholders, (churches have stockholders, who knew?), and one of the illustrations they wanted was a sanctuary. This presented me with the rare thing that I relish in my job, the opportunity to do some original art.
From memory, I drew the sanctuary from the first chapel in the game “Return to Castle Wolfenstein”, complete with treasure items. I even put in the sniper upstairs. They loved it so much that they have hired us to do all of their work. I guess none of them have played Return to Castle Wolfenstein.

MargaretPOA – to think all these Christians are urging more war. It does not compute with what I believe Jesus/god would want people to do. They make a great deal about jesus being a humble carpenter — the born again and the pope should try it sometime. They should leave their palaces and walk in the dirt, see the poor, etc. etc.

Hypocrisy is thriving among most Christians who are too busy telling the world exactly how they should behave while they rob everyone.

The perception of modern Catholics is not liberal, more like screaming anti-abortionists. It is nice to see so many Catholics professing liberalism.

Here is another nice Catholic boy’s version of “why I’m a liberal”…

If by a “Liberal” they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people – their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties – someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad; if that is what they mean by a “Liberal,” then I’m proud to say I’m a “Liberal.” – John F. Kennedy

re: watching press the meat
is it just me or does Sen. Lindsey Graham enunciate his southern twang bullshit like he has a mouthful of same?

I learned liberal values in Sunday School. I learned about social injustice in grade school after becoming intrigued by the underground railroad and the struggle of “colored people” to rise above being slaves. The stories of Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglas and Washington Carver filled me with anger at our country and a burning sense of the hypocrisy of our leaders.

The 60’s fed that sense of injustice and Martin Luther King, Jr. gave eloquent voice to the Christian responsibility to be politically active to fight against the institutionalized prejudice. I was inspired by MLK, the epitome of a true Christian, who was inspired by God and the suffering of his people to fight for truth and justice.

I’m an Episcopalian. There are many Repub’s in my church and over the years, I’ve been able to challenge many of their political views by referal to biblical passages. And, I have helped bring some to the light, to vote democratic for the first time in their lives.

I also understand Gandhi’s comment: I like your Jesus, I don’t care for your Christians. Jesus was a liberal and would be crucified again today.

I wasn’t against Clinton being impeached, although my opinion wasn’t well recieved by my friends. To me the point was he lied to a grand jury. The fact it was about a blowjob was beside the point, blowjob or snowjob whatever, as president you tell the Truth. Now I’m waiting for Bushs’ turn.

Huckleberry has that schtick down to a well honed political art. He is not just Lindsay Graham: he plays a character named “Lindsay Graham.”

In fairness, this is really true of all politicians and public figures, to greater and lesser extents, even the ones we like. It’s just that Graham’s Struther Martin routine has gotten awfully kitschy.

Pachacutec @
48

I want to second the point, upthread, that decent, human values precede any particular religious affiliation, in my view. I simply wrote as I did because the cradle of my developing moral sensibility as a kid came from Catholicism.

Pach,

My point was to expand and add emphasis to your excellent post and to other comments about the fundemental chicken & egg question of morality, decent human values and liberalism, on one hand, versus religion and political religiousity and/or religious affilations on the other hand.

That is why I made the point about organized religion harvesting organic expressions of liberal humanity as opposed to decent human values running in the downstream direction, i.e., from political institution to religious affiliate.

I did not think for a second that what you wrote suggested anything otherwise.

slainte,
cl

Lindsay got today’s memo

What is wrong with Pelosi? New Orleans needs help now, but I have yet to a hear a single word from the Dems in Washington about what they are going to do to help the city.. Are they going to ignore New Orleans, too?

Yep, I’m lib, too, but taking a political stance don’t mean squat when New Orleans needs help. Disaster isn’t liberal or conservative. Bush caused the flooding, but he isn’t going to do a thing, so it is up to Pelosi & co. to take action- the state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans are simply overwhelmed.

Yeah, go ahead and sit at your computer, sip coffee & blog about sports & trivia, but did you stop to think that there are people in New Orleans right now who would be grateful for a safe place to live? A roof over their heads? Who need food?

Go over to kos & read,

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/6/203746/5833

Then see if you feel all cozy sitting in your home while New Orleans suffers. I, for one, am not going to celebrate the Democratic majority of Congress until the actually do something, as in, ala Edwards, go to New Orleans and pitch in, as in help the city. Now.

the people that read this blog should be burying their representatives in emails and making a huge stink about New Orleans- it is plain that unless we make a stink, Pelosi isn’t going to move. Call- email, whatever, but do something now, not tomorrow, to help new Orleans.

One thing the Catholic church has gotten down in the last 20 centuries is indoctrination. I’m a lapsed Catholic as are many of my friends and other churches do not feel right when you’ve been raised thoroughly Catholic. To me that’s because of the lack of universality. “catholic” actually means universal in the lower case, and the sense of participating in something ritualistic and greater than yourself just doesn’t come to me in other churches that do their own thing.

As a film professor, I was asked frequently a few years ago if I was going to see “The Passion.” I always answered the same way: “I already know how it ends.” Which I admit I mostly said to shock my students, but it was true. :) I still don’t understand the people who focus exclusively on how Jesus died (especially Mel Gibson’s mania for pain) when I believe it’s way more important what he said when he was alive.

This was a solitary man – a Jew, who was a second or possibly lower class citizen – from an oppressed state under the thumb of the most powerful empire in existence, who contradicted the social and religious order of the entire known world by himself. While the entire Mediterranean civilization basically held that rich people are fundamentally more worthy than poor people (and enjoying the favor of the gods) he said no, you are all equal in the eyes of God. What’s more, those of you who are pure of heart and devout will be rewarded no matter your station here on earth. And the only rule that matters, the one you must live by above all others, is to treat others as you would have them treat you.

Is that why I’m a progressive liberal? Probably. I see a lot of people on the right who seem to be “me (and only people like me) first and to hell with everyone and everything else” which is selfish and misguided and certainly not following any permutation of the Golden Rule no matter how they twist their logic. The left side of the spectrum, I’d like to believe, is more about commonality and lifting up everyone, regardless of the minor differences between people.

The left, in other words, is about the public good. The common good – a universal benefit, something we can all join together and work towards. Being raised Catholic, how could that not appeal to me?

Caoimhin Laochdha:

Thanks. I understood where you were coming from. It’s just a point I wanted to amplify, just in case people from other religious traditions are surfing through and feel as if we’re creating a climate a little bit myopic. I don’t want anyone feeling unwelcome.

Plus you get the “Pachacutec” award for names difficult for the native English speaker to handle, read or articulate!

Typo? Thot CNN late edition was 11.

I really won’t take very kindly to lectures from anyone about our commitment to raising awareness of the plight of New Orleans when this site has been one of the recognized leaders online in keeping the needs of the people there alive.

That said, I’m all for people doing more, making calls and pressuring Democrats to do more.

There are people all over the world suffering.

azureblue @ 68

What is wrong with Pelosi? New Orleans needs help now, but I have yet to a hear a single word from the Dems in Washington about what they are going to do to help the city.. Are they going to ignore New Orleans, too?

Yep, I’m lib, too, but taking a political stance don’t mean squat when New Orleans needs help. Disaster isn’t liberal or conservative. Bush caused the flooding, but he isn’t going to do a thing, so it is up to Pelosi & co. to take action- the state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans are simply overwhelmed.

Yeah, go ahead and sit at your computer, sip coffee & blog about sports & trivia, but did you stop to think that there are people in New Orleans right now who would be grateful for a safe place to live? A roof over their heads? Who need food?

Go over to kos & read,

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/6/203746/5833

Then see if you feel all cozy sitting in your home while New Orleans suffers. I, for one, am not going to celebrate the Democratic majority of Congress until the actually do something, as in, ala Edwards, go to New Orleans and pitch in, as in help the city. Now.

the people that read this blog should be burying their representatives in emails and making a huge stink about New Orleans- it is plain that unless we make a stink, Pelosi isn’t going to move. Call- email, whatever, but do something now, not tomorrow, to help new Orleans.

I was raised Roman Catholic by very intelligent, progressive, decent, devout parents. They lived on 10% of their income and gave the rest to charity … a sort of reverse tithing. I learned young how to live very modestly and those lessons have shaped my life in the best way. I stopped going to mass right after confirmation (age 12) and my parents, generously and wisely, decided it was more important that their daughter be an altruist and good person who spent Sundays helping the poor than be a weekly church-goer (although those things aren’t mutually exclusive–and they knew I knew that, too).

I’m now a big proponent of Catholic social teaching (and its preferential option for the most vulnerable and blueprint for social justice) and a consistent ethic of life. I teach at a Jesuit-run, all Latino/a, inner city high school that gets 99% of its graduates into college (one kid last year went into the Marines — we pray for him every day). Lessons from childhood frugality allow me to keep my rent paid. I spent most of 2002 and part of 2003 in jail for my actions protesting the buildup to the Iraq war. Priests (most of whom I had never met and I still don’t know all of their names) made sure I had free legal representation at each court hearing. What surprised me, and it shouldn’t have, was most of my cellmates were nuns/sisters, guided by their religious training and a pope who was anti-war from day one. Jesus remains my best liberal role model and I’m lucky to work with people who feel the same way.

Peace to all.

The left, in other words, is about the public good. The common good – a universal benefit, something we can all join together and work towards. Being raised Catholic, how could that not appeal to me?

************************************************
Hear, hear! Though I am not a card carrying Democrat, I am all about the public good and looking forward and not back. I also absolutely reject the idea that “goodness” and those qualities which nurture and assist must come from religious values. Most religions espouse, (if not practice), such virtuous thinking. Most religions are also not Christian and most are not even based on monotheism as we see it. The good comes from within people. The people at least that aren’t overcome with greed and power as an end to itself.

And isnt face the nation on now?

With Pelosi?

egregious @
78

And isnt face the nation on now?

With Pelosi?

yes, it just started. my guess – difference between eastern and pacific time zones

Ive always been liberal. Growing up Episcopalian in New England there just didnt seem to be any other way. Kennedys were my heros and I went to extremely liberal Antioch College in 1960.

Now, living in red TN I am even more liberal and anti-war.

Pachacutec @
71

Caoimhin Laochdha:

Thanks. I understood where you were coming from. It’s just a point I wanted to amplify, just in case people from other religious traditions are surfing through and feel as if we’re creating a climate a little bit myopic. I don’t want anyone feeling unwelcome.

Plus you get the “Pachacutec” award for names difficult for the native English speaker to handle, read or articulate!

Pach,

Thank you but believe me, I don’t deserve any awards. Besides the fact is, other than my name, there are only about 25 Irish words I can pronounce myself.

slainte,
cl

p.s. Caoimhin=Kevin and Laochdha has so many correct (colonized) English variants that it hard to pronounce incorrectly.

Meet the press is usu 9am. Well, enough trouble.

what u gonna do if chimpy announces surge?

pelosi – that would be contrary to what the people want. generals say adding more troops will NOT help. Chimp is listening to nobody.

let’s be positive about the preznit’s speech. we wrote him a letter and hope he listened.

if he chooses to surge, he will have to justify it, and that is new for him. up until this point, he has had a blank check given by congress.

This is the liberal philosphy I adhere to:

“Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.”

“The lifestance of Humanism—guided by reason, inspired by compassion, and informed by experience—encourages us to live life well and fully. It evolved through the ages and continues to develop through the efforts of thoughtful people who recognize that values and ideals, however carefully wrought, are subject to change as our knowledge and understandings advance.”

Humanist Manifesto III:
http://www.americanhumanist.org/3/Hum…..ations.htm

Have a nice day everyone.

Time to go outside and play in the creepy, but warm, bosom of global warming at 44.27N -72.64W.

slainte,
cl

I am a liberal because liberal values are the best solution yet devised to order a society.

Conservatives are Microsoft. Liberals are open source.

And now for some things that illustrate why I love these tubz:

Awwww…

Woot!

I’m a Liberal because I hate my parents, all of whom are die hard WingNuts.

Get this; my step-dad was railing on about the war on Christmas at Christmas dinner. Word for word recitation of what I assume Billo had said that very evening. I had to laugh to keep from crying!

Face the Nation – pelosi – we will see what the prez has to say. the burden is on prez to justify any escalation.

do u believe u will have the votes to stop him?

pelosi – when i talked about the was and the responsibility to the troops, it wasn’t just dems cheering, reps were too. it’s not just about dems

I’m a converted Reagan Democrat, myself. And my conversion came in two separate stages.

I turned into a social liberal after I befriended a gay man over the Intranets, soon after I turned 19 years old, in 1990. He was a very gentle, quiet, loyal soul, and around him, my ingrained homophobia quickly fell away. At the time, it was shocking how fast my attitudes changed, but once they did, it was for life.

Economic liberalism came alot slower to me; in this case, it took a personal experience with living in poverty, after getting unceremoniously defunded in graduate school and pushed out. After a short stay with a friend and a totally unsuccessful job search, his roommate kicked me to the street — literally. I would have ended up homeless and likely dead, were it not for my parents rescuing me. Even after that, I spent 3 years in the hinterlands of underemployment and unemployment, before finally getting a job in my field.

It also didn’t hurt that the job I got was a temp job with no health bennies. In those two years, I got a chronic illness which nearly killed me back then (a new grad school and health insurance saved my life) and haunts me to this day.

Nothing like getting a serious taste of what it’s like to be impoverished to turn you into an economic liberal.

Those are the stories of my conversions, in a nutshell.

Face the Nation – Pelosi – mr. prez, in your speech next week, we want to see a plan.

congress is ready to use it’s constitutional authority of oversight.

Why am I a liberal?

Because I think that freedom, choices, and uncertainty lead to better outcomes than the authoritarian (and often Procrustian) imposition of certainties.

Face the Nation – Pelosi – we want the truth about what is happening on the ground. the situation could hardly b worse.

we know our troops are targets there. a year ago, murtha asked for a re-deploy and it didn’t happen. here we r a year later in the same situation.

Face the Nation – do u think there would b complete chaos if we began to draw-down now?

Pelosi – there is complete chaos now. how long can we sutain this with no plan. the admins policy in iraq has failed. we are losing in achieving the goal of bringing stability to the region.

Face the Nation – prez said he wanted to work w/ dems to balance budget but also refuses to increase taxes and won’t lower war funding.

Pelosi – we’d like to see what his version of a balanced budget is, he’s never sent one to the congress.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070122/moyers

Bill Moyers give a great answer to “why I’m a liberal” and helps reframe the debate.

Face the Nation – chimp almost seems to be daring the dems to not mess w/ his tax cuts

Pelosi – i hope it’s not a dare. we’d like to join together… we r committed to pay-as-u-go.

r u promising no new taxes for anybody?

Pelosi – no, we r talking about tax cuts for the middle class (and much more, too fast 4 me to type)

no new deficit spending. repealing chimps tax breaks 4 the rich is an option, not a first resort.

rosie says -

I spent most of 2002 and part of 2003 in jail for my actions protesting the buildup to the Iraq war.

you are Peace Takes Courage personified

went to a Christmas Eve Prayer Vigil at the local privately managed concentration camp but ‘confessed’ to being hesitant to do so out of fear of being arrested and my family doing without me at Christmas – of course, upon arrival I was welcomed, surrounded, and protected by a dozen nuns, a few priests, and a crowd of brave lay people like you – one Sister Mary Timothy informed me sotto voce she takes out her seldom worn veil for these occasions – “kryptonite for cops”, and off we went . . .

Wesley Clark: Bush’s ’surge’ will backfire

Pelosi – its interesting to me that the prez is now, after 6 years, talking about earmarks. during his admin, the number of earmarks has exploded.

growing up jewish, i always admired the strong sense of social justice that animated a lot of our cultural history — i especially admired the sense of refusing to be history’s orphans or victims. and i always enjoyed rituals like the seder, where we reminded ourselves of being slaves once, and identifying with those in our lives and around us in society who were less fortunate.
even if i didn’t have this background, i know i’d be liberal/progressive because of what this country has always meant to me: that while imperfect, we have striven to improve the lot of everyone here, that the government is still responsive to the needs of the citizenry.
that’s why the hijacking of this nation by a cadre of sociopaths who are either in thrall to an ism that rejects any philosophy beyond “i’ve got mine” or merely hired toadies to the monied has been such an outrage. there has always been that tension in our democracy, but the folks in power have never been so nakedly greedy and corrupt, contemptuous of the tenets of our constitution and so free of the demands of conscience. it’s impressive, really.
anyway, i have hopes for 07 that did not exist in 06.
for that, i’m quite grateful.

Pelosi – “My colleagues have elected me Speaker of the House, not Speaker of the Democrats”

Pach,
Except for never having had the experience of being gay or of being an alter boy, you could have written that post about me. Thank you for so eloquently epressing how I feel.

The Timely Death of Gerald Ford By FRANK RICH

THE very strange and very long Gerald Ford funeral marathon was about many things, but Gerald Ford wasn’t always paramount among them.

Forty percent of today’s American population was not alive during the Ford presidency. The remaining 60 percent probably spent less time recollecting his unelected 29-month term than they did James Brown’s “Papa’s Got a Brand New Bag.” Despite the lachrymose logorrhea of television anchors and the somber musical fanfares, the country was less likely to be found in deep mourning than in deep football. It’s a safe bet that the Ford funeral attracted far fewer viewers than the most consequential death video of the New Year’s weekend, the lynching of Saddam Hussein. But those two deaths were inextricably related: it was in tandem that they created a funereal mood that left us mourning for our own historical moment more than for Mr. Ford.

What the Ford obsequies were most about was the Beltway establishment’s grim verdict on George W. Bush and his war in Iraq. Every Ford attribute, big and small, was trotted out by Washington eulogists with a wink, as an implicit rebuke of the White House’s current occupant. Mr. Ford was a healer, not a partisan divider. He was an all-American football star, not a cheerleader. He didn’t fritter away time on pranks at his college fraternity, Delta Kappa Epsilon, because he had to work his way through school as a dishwasher. He was in the top third of his class at Yale Law. He fought his way into dangerous combat service during World War II rather than accept his cushy original posting. He was pals with reporters and Democrats. He encouraged dissent in his inner circle. He had no enemies, no ego, no agenda, no ideology, no concern for his image. He described himself as “a Ford, not a Lincoln,” rather than likening himself to, say, Truman.

Under the guise of not speaking ill of a dead president, the bevy of bloviators so relentlessly trashed the living incumbent that it bordered on farce. No wonder President Bush, who once hustled from Crawford to Washington to sign a bill interfering in Terri Schiavo’s medical treatment, remained at his ranch last weekend rather than join Betty Ford and Dick Cheney for the state ceremony in the Capitol rotunda.

Yet for all the media acreage bestowed on the funeral, the day in Mr. Ford’s presidency that most stalks Mr. Bush was given surprisingly short shrift — perhaps because it was the most painful. That day was not Sept. 8, 1974, when Mr. Ford pardoned his predecessor, but April 30, 1975, when the last American helicopters hightailed it out of Saigon, ending our involvement in a catastrophic war. Mr. Ford had been a consistent Vietnam hawk, but upon inheriting the final throes of the fiasco, he recognized reality when he saw it.

Just how much so can be found in a prescient speech that Mr. Ford gave a week before our clamorous Saigon exit. (And a speech prescient on other fronts, too: he called making “America independent of foreign energy sources by 1985” an urgent priority.) Speaking at Tulane University, Mr. Ford said, “America can regain the sense of pride that existed before Vietnam” but not “by refighting a war that is finished as far as America is concerned.” He added: “We, of course, are saddened indeed by the events in Indochina. But these events, tragic as they are, portend neither the end of the world nor of America’s leadership in the world.”

All of this proved correct, and though Mr. Ford made a doomed last-ditch effort to secure more financial aid for Saigon, he could and did do nothing to stop the inevitable. He knew it was way too late to make the symbolic gesture of trying to toss fresh American troops on the pyre. “We can and we should help others to help themselves,” he said in New Orleans. “But the fate of responsible men and women everywhere, in the final decision, rests in their own hands, not in ours.”

Though Mr. Ford was hardly the unalloyed saint of last week’s pageantry, his words and actions in 1975 should weigh heavily upon us even as our current president remains oblivious. As Mr. Ford’s presidential history is hard to separate from the Bush inversion of it, so it is difficult to separate that indelible melee in Saigon from the Hussein video. Both are terrifying, and for the same reason.

The awful power of the Hussein snuff film derives not just from its illustration of the barbarity of capital punishment, even in a case where the condemned is a mass murderer undeserving of pity. What really makes the video terrifying is its glimpse into the abyss of an irreversible and lethal breakdown in civic order. It sends the same message as those images of helicopters fleeing our embassy in April 1975: Iraq, like Vietnam before it, is in chaos, beyond the control of our government or the regime we’re desperately trying to prop up. The security apparatus of Iraq’s “unity government” was powerless to prevent the video, let alone the chaos, and can’t even get its story straight about what happened and why.

Actually, it’s even worse than that. Perhaps the video’s most chilling notes are the chants of “Moktada! Moktada! Moktada!” They are further confirmation, as if any were needed, that our principal achievement in Iraq over four years has been to empower a jihadist mini-Saddam in place of the secular original. The radical cleric Moktada al-Sadr, an ally of Hezbollah and Hamas, is a thug responsible for the deaths of untold Iraqis and Americans alike. It was his forces, to take just one representative example, that killed Cindy Sheehan’s son, among many others, in one of two Shiite uprisings in 2004.

The day after Casey Sheehan’s slaughter, Dan Senor, the spokesman for the American occupation, presided over a Green Zone news conference promising Mr. Sadr’s woefully belated arrest on a months-old warrant for his likely role in the earlier assassination of Abdel Majid al-Khoei, a rival Shiite who had fiercely opposed Saddam. Today Mr. Sadr and his forces control 30 seats in the Iraqi Parliament, four government ministries, and death squads (a k a militias) more powerful than the nominal Iraqi army. He is the puppetmaster who really controls Nuri al-Maliki — the Iraqi prime minister embraced by Mr. Bush — even to the point of inducing Mr. Maliki to shut down a search for an American soldier kidnapped at gunpoint in Sadr City in the fall. (And, you might ask, whatever happened to Mr. Senor? He’s a Fox News talking head calling for a “surge” of American troops to clean up the botch he and his cohort left behind.) Only Joseph Heller could find the gallows humor in a moral disaster of these proportions.

Mod Note: Redacted for Fair Use reasons. Sorry, D. E.!

why in nancy pelosi identified as d-san francisco instead of d-state as all the rest are?

I was raised a Methodist and have long since developed my own. I left the church because killing for Christ was antithetical to the teachings of Jesus.

I am a Liberal because all of the best human qualities — love, charity, empathy, and community — are inherently liberal.

The Conservative Republican X-tians aren’t Christian at all — their motivating values are greed, fear, and resentment. They are the heirs of Calvinism, a religion started to sanctify greed and cruelty.

It seems that prez Bush’s history, at least as an ‘adult’, is one of misfires and “backfires”.

CNN – 5 more US troops killed in Iraq today. We r now at 3011

Well said, Pach. Seeing the world through “stained glass windows” is so true. The sacred in the every day. We are all little mystics.

My pet peeve is the notion, probably projection on the part of those who hold it, that without religion one cannot be a moral being; without the threat of some enormous guy with a beard watching one like a hawk and then hurling the appropriate punishment at mankind in general when one of us trangresses, we won’t behave “right”.

Because the path described by religion is a straight, narrow, un-human path and we surely will transgress, it’s impossible to travel te path and not step off, because we are human. The whole point of Christian, Buddhist, Taoist teachings, to me, is that we must always strive to be better humans, not that there is only one way to live. It is the act of always trying to be better that counts.

Lord knows we liberals are trying.

I was raised a Catholic too, pac.

Great sets, lovely costume, beautiful music — the “book” stinks to high heaven.

“Lost my faith” at confirmation. The Bishop came on like a stand-up comic for the entertainment of the priests and nuns of our parish. Not terribly impressive that.

As I didn’t attend Catholic school the priests never got the chance to molest me. But as an adult I “molested” many of them when they would turn up at the Baths. Priests always broke down cring after coming.

My politics was forged at Communist Martyrs High aka. The High School of Music and Art (and if you get that reference we’re friends for life! )

Joined the Gay Activists Alliance right after Stonewall, though basically I’ve been a Big Ol’ Gay Homosexual ever since 1954 when Mom took me to see Kismet at Radio City (or was it the Roxy?) and I (like so many other gay men of my generation) was corrupted forever by Dolores Gray in the “Not Since Ninevah” number (choreographed by the great Jack Cole.)

harpo @ 104

why in nancy pelosi identified as d-san francisco instead of d-state as all the rest are?

Because San Francisco is EEEEVIL and LIBRUL and California can’t be those things because of the Governator.

(milk through nose)

You go boy, I like your brand of liberalism. It looks just fine, viewed through a Midwestern window, too.

I’ve amended my personal definition of “Liberal” in recent years to designate a person who is able to look beyond immediate fiscal concerns of any moral or political situation. The ability to extrapolate the potential ramifications of any action, now, to the results of that action which may occur more than 4 years in the future — that seems to me to be a hallmark of liberalism. Hell, seeing past the fiscal quarter might even qualify these days.

I am a liberal because I have faith in humanity. I believe that we are at our best when we are working toward effective solutions for the universe not just for the few.

My religion is not really a religion but I am fascinated by humanism. Zen is also very enlightening. I do believe that Jesus Christ evolved as an important human being that would teach us the solution if we were willing to hear it. I believe god speaks through nature and human are only one part of the message. I sometimes think that Martin Luther King might have been the second coming of christ.

I was raised catholic and went to catholic school until 6th grade. I have had my tragedies and experiment with several religions. I was struck with poverty after a divorce with my ex who was a computer analyst.

He paid child support for 10 years as court ordered. I worked two jobs and put myself through grad school, while single parenting. I earned my masters degree and now work a full time job and a second job consulting.

After divorcing his second wife, his third convinced him to sue for custody of our boys. They were 12 and 14 at the time. It cost me 10k to defend their right to stay living at my house with their friends and school. His child support was increased because his salary had tripled since our divorce.

Within a year of losing the battle he quit his 150k job and quit paying child support. Because he lived right across the border in another state it took 3 years to finally get sanctions that would force him to work and pay again. He said he was starting his own business so they couldn’t garnish his wages and they couldn’t arrest him across state lines.

In the meantime I bought a house with no partner helping me. A single mom. My credit score was 750 at the time but I got stuck with a predatory lender (2001) before I even knew what they could do to you. It was a 30 year fixed loan with a high interest rate of 9.85, where it stays today. When the child support was stopped after 6 months of hanging by my nails but making the payments, I finally fell behind.

Within 60 days I was in foreclosure and now bankruptcy because of the bogus fees and illegal behaviors. (not returning calls and faxes, charging me for property inspections, not maintaining escrow accounts legally). I have talked to every lawyer, ftc, attorney general, etc…in the state and no one can stop them. I have signed up as part of a class action lawsuit but no movement has been made for it to go through, yet.

I am in bankruptcy trying to save my home in chapter 13. I have been making payments through the chap 13 for a year. They said I owed 14 k but now after a year of payments and two lawsuits for non payment that I was able to defend (bogus…bad accounting on their part), they say I owe 17k, now!! My lawyer says the only thing I can do is a civil suit.

So I have worked my way through college and grad school, gotten my credit up good enough to buy a house on my own, all to have it destroyed by an ex husband and predatory lender. I do not think I could have prevented the events that landed me here. I had a saving account before the lawsuit, but of course it was gone by the time he quit paying child support.

I have worked hard for the american dream. I am 44 years old and it feels as if all my hard work has been destroyed. Bottom line is that the playing field is not even. This lender will most likely eventually get my house. There are no protections from these lenders. You think there are, but the truth is that the current climate leaves them free to pillage those who have the least to lose. To lose the american dream of owning a home is very difficult, while the corporation does whatever it wants.

I work with those in poverty and I have had my own battle with it…I know the truth and that is that much of the wealth that has come to the upper crust has come on my back…and many of yours.

They have made a killing

The US has spent a million dollars for every dead Iraqi – is that what they mean by value for money?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm…..17,00.html

David Ehrenstein @
103

The Timely Death of Gerald Ford By FRANK RICH

THE very strange and very long Gerald Ford funeral marathon was about many things, but Gerald Ford wasn’t always paramount among them.

Wow, I was really wondering what Kissinger & Dole were snickering about as they entered the services. Perfectly clear now, thankyou.

I too blame Bobby Kennedy. And growing up in an Army family. The Army is essentially a socialist wonderland. Universal healthcare. Decent housing provided by the state. Subsidized everything.

Great post, thanks!

I’m a liberal because I believe in questions. And when those questions are answered, ask more questions.

Humanity evolves, progresses, and learns through questioning, through debate, through discussion. And inevitably, that discussion raises more questions.

And when you are open to the questions, then you learn, you progress, you get stronger.

That’s why I’m a liberal.

katie Jensen: Amazing, compelling, heartrending. I wish there was more I could to to help, other than my political work.

Senate Minority Leader on Bush Iraq Escalation: ‘I Intend To Support Him’

Stephanopoulos: Pelosi May Create Special Global Warming Committee

What an amazing thread…DRST at 71 (and others), very well put. I’ve been a Catholic and progressive for as long as I can remember. I was raised in a progressive church, and taught by the Jesuits in HS. At least until I transferred to the public school cuz I wanted to smoke without getting detention!

I have gone through a reawakening in my faith over the last couple of years, and I always focus on the church with a little c-the scripture, ritual, etc. The church with a big C is that run by men, men who are flawed and sin like the rest of us. Don’t have as much interest in that. The big C is full of hypocrites desperate to hold on to their power (where have we seen that?)

The church with a big C is that run by men, men who are flawed and sin like the rest of us.

It’s run by men in frocks!

And their “flaws” and “sins” aren’t like those of the rest of us in any way shape or form.

Unless you imagine we’re all a bunch of serial pedophiles.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Pelosi on!

CNN – sources say chimpy to call for 20-40,000 more troops to Eyerak

pachacutec:

thanks for the kind words. I think it will all be okay in the end. One day at a time. I am luckier than most in that, I have a master’s degree and can earn a decent living. I have a brain to fight these lenders with and will use the tools that are available, if I lose it won’t be for not trying. I am very aware that I have more than most and that the fact that I am white means I didn’t earn my way to the top. Some of the road was already paved for me. Honestly, my clients lives are far more difficult than theirs but my experiences have given me a compassion that I always had superficially. Today I really understand some “details” about how poverty puts obstacles in people’s lives. I get it in a way I couldn’t before and for that I am grateful. These lenders go after minorities, elderly and women. When I speak, I speak for those who don’t have the pulpit.

Urban Pirate says:

October 18th, 2006 at 9:13 am *

I am a progressive because I have a heart, and believe no human should be forced to live in abject poverty.

Because I’m grateful for what I have been able to achieve, and like to give back.

Because I instinctively root for the underdog.

Because I believe that a meritocracy benefits us all much more than an aristocracy.

Because I believe our environment and natural resources belong to all of us, not simply those with the power or contacts to buy them below market value.

Because I believe America’s greatness is based on it’s “bottom” 80%, not “top” 20%.

Because my god isn’t short of cash, and teaches me to enjoy, respect, and champion diversity.

Because guys like Ken Lay, and his family, laugh all the way to the grave, and beyond.

Because 45 million Americans (including me) are uninsured.

Because I like to look myself in the mirror.

My comment seems to have vanished somewhere, but to sum it up, I too blame Bobby Kennedy. And my Irish Catholic upbringing. And the fact that Ayn Rand is such a terrible, terrible writer, which made the efforts of my Randist high school pals to convert me backfire horribly.

I would also like to second what Urban Pirate said.

Thanks, Cleter.

A bumpersticker I saw the other day:

I very much like your Christ.
I don’t like much your Christians.
They are not much like your Christ.

Wonder what the percentage of liberal-progressives are that are Catholic/recovering Catholic? It seems to be a persistent theme.

I’m one of them, a recovering Catholic leaning towards Buddhism. But then I always took to heart the Beatitudes.

Stupifies me how many Christians don’t subscribe to these most important teachings of Christ.

Also stupifies me how similar the Beatitudes are to the Eight-Fold Path of Buddhism; why the intolerance of Christians, then, towards values of others that are so similar in nature?

But I guess that’s what makes me a liberal and a progressive.

The truth is I go back and forth, from just wanting to rip into the administration and republicans, to wanting to try to find common ground with them. I know, there are many here that would call me many names for even saying that. And I really don’t fault you for it.
I think I understand the anger and fear. I feel it every day.

I am certainly not above going on a partisan, cussing rant. In fact, I reserve the right to do so. Chances are, I could go on a rant that would rival some of the most vicious ever seen on liberal blogs. And I have been sorely tempted at times. Actually, I’m not completely sure why I haven’t taken a more critical tack in my posts. But, I do know people, that I like a lot, who are also conservative republicans. I just have no desire to completely alienate them. These are people that are family members (who I love) and people that I work with and for. While I don’t agree with, or even understand their politics, they are people I care about.

I’ve been (what I would label myself) a union democrat all my life (past member of two different unions). My grandfather was a Teamster (drove a team of horses and wagon). My mother and father were union members and democrats. I think that used to mean moderate.

Well, labels are BS anyway. Most conservatives would call me a flaming liberal, and there are probably some liberals who would call me a conservative. Haven’t done any research, but as quite a few people have suggested, I am beginning to think a two party system is not cutting it. If we’re going to have labels we might as well have a bunch of them. In the scheme of things I consider myself a liberal.

The truth is; we’re all Americans.

For the most part, I feel the republican agenda should be fought aggressively.
But, right now I think (clutch the pearls) we need their help.
Is it against the liberal/progressive/democratic party rules to reach out to republicans for help, in a crisis that could potentially destroy this country?

It should also be asked: Is it against the conservative/republican party rules to reach out to democrats for help, in a crisis that could potentially destroy this country?

The truth is, we need each others’ help. We have got to find some way to get out of Iraq and find some real, lasting, solutions in the middle east.

Of course, there are other issues that we are going to have to find ways to work together on. The environment comes to mind. But, I just don’t see anything happening on any issue until we get out of Iraq.

What got me to thinking about this was an article in the WaPo on Friday, where Sen. Biden basically said that he believes the only way the president will consider redeployment out of Iraq is to have republican senators and reps. convince him that it’s necessary. At this point, I believe this to be true.
The president surely will not listen to democrats.

Somehow we need the republican senators, congressman and governors to convince the president to get us out of Iraq.

Like I said, I am really torn about posting this. I have a big reservation that I won’t discuss right now. But, I will say, it would probably be smarter, for me personally, to be as partisan as I could be right now.

I am considering trying to post this on redstate.org. If I do, it would be my first post on a conservative blog.

(*points upward*)

Da thread! Da thread!

Liberal goals are just plain common sense. Investing in education, health care, child care, jobs with a living wage for all (among other things) is good for families, business, reducing crime & on & on. The republican agendas of the past few decades have had the opposite results. It’s weird that they can’t see ahead that those policies will ultimately come to back to bite them in the ass too. Why that is not obvious to the diehards is a combination of idolatry, shortsightedness, selfishness & greed, stubbornness & the inability to delve beyond surface, simplistic thinking. All that conservative concern for families, democracy, the country’s security, marriage, you name it, is bogus. IMO the conservative mantra is full speed ahead, grab all the gusto you can & damn the consequences.

Late to the party today. I’m another fully lapsed Catholic. But the Catholic church of my youth in the 60s & 70s emphasized conscience and compassion. The stories of the Good Samaritan, searching for the lost lamb, welcoming the prodigal son, loaves and fishes — these were paramount.

If the government were run based on Christian values (and now I’m not saying it ever has to be expressed in any way, but just applied in principle alone because so many of the major religions share basic philosophies as to how you should treat your fellow man) but if our elected representatives (employees), would govern by tenets of Christianity, then the caretakers of our society, those whose jobs are to protect the helpless, the weak and underprivileged, and enlighten and care for our children; the social workers, child care workers, nursing home workers, teachers, animal protection workers, and so many, many more, would be the best paid people in the country.

Our tax dollars are, instead, used for defense spending, corporate subsidies, and war.

Guess what I’m sayin’ is that all these people who are saying we are a “Christian nation” are full of shit.

Lisening to Alice Walker on CSPAN. I just wish I had a teeny smidgen of her ability to express the truth of things with such clarity and wisdom. I fumble and fail, but I try.

The truth is; we’re all Americans.

No we’re not.

Only white, straight, Baptist, Republican males qualify as Americans.

The rest of us are The Third World.

katie jensen: That you still have faith in humanity is a tribute to your incredible spirit. I would be angry and bitter, I can’t lie. I’d be pretty pissed. I guess that’s what makes me a liberal, because I can’t stand the thought of people like you having to go through what your are going through simply because our government (our employees for God’s sake – is their JOB to serve US) won’t do it’s f**king job but instead seems to exist soley to enable rampant, destructive forms of capitalism, and my my, they do it so well!

As it is, our tax dollars are used to pay for war, more defense spending and subsidization of corporate interests, here and around the world.

{grrrrrrrr}

cleter @ 127

My comment seems to have vanished somewhere, but to sum it up, I too blame Bobby Kennedy. And my Irish Catholic upbringing. And the fact that Ayn Rand is such a terrible, terrible writer, which made the efforts of my Randist high school pals to convert me backfire horribly.

I would also like to second what Urban Pirate said.

Well, English wasn’t Rand’s first language but, even so, I will not defend her prose any more than to say it was aught but a vehicle for her philosophy. That being stated, what parts of her philosophy I do countenance, I think are far outweighed by the negatives that self styled “John Galts” inflict upon the world. To paraphrase something about JC, if Rand were alive today to see what ideas are being proposed in the name of her philosophy, she would never stop throwing up.

I, too, was raised Catholic. While my elementary and middle school years were spent in a horrible parochial school that seems to have let Vatican II pass it by (the nuns told me if I bit on the Eucharist I would choke on blood), I went to an all-girl’s high school run by Dominican nuns who were an absolute inspiration. I may be pagan now (and really it’s more Marian-ism taken to its logical end), but I was instilled with an unshakable belief in social justice for all. In love, in compassion, in doing what you KNOW is right, even if it means you’re not popular, or rich, or powerful. They courted prison themselves for sheltering female political refugees from Central America (this was back during the El Salvador/Nicaragua mess), and they had these young women come talk to us, their peers, about what they’d suffered – rape, torture, watching their families pulled out of their houses and killed in front of them. We were relentlessly encouraged to work for social change, for progress. Even though I’m no longer Catholic, those are lessons I’ve held dear my whole life. They are why I’m a liberal today.

David Ehrenstein says:
January 7th, 2007 at 9:00 am *

The truth is; we’re all Americans.

No we’re not.

Only white, straight, Baptist, Republican males qualify as Americans.

The rest of us are The Third World

I think I understand what you’re saying here. I consider myself “lucky” not be a minority, or poor, in this country (in any country). That’s all it is, I guess, luck or chance or fate. Not sure what the right word is.

After I posted that comment, I had the thought that I should have written; We are all Americans and citizens of this planet.

Just wanted to add my two cents.

I too was raised RC, went to C-school for 6 years, later became disillusioned with their total package.

But, like you, I have kept that strong passion for helping the poor. Don’t know why exactly but I guess it was the best of the church for me.

I am a liberal because I always want to see the other side of a problem or question. Maybe when I realized that there are many people in the world who aren’t RC, (being Italian and going to C-school meant everyone I knew was RC)made me realize that there had to be other opinions and it was right that I listen to them.

I believe in the rights of the living, thus am pro-choice and anti-death penalty. I believe in helping those less fortunate than me and treating everyone with respect (although this is very hard to do with Bush and Cheney etc.).

I live within my means and oppose taking advantage of people just because it will benefit me.

Anyway, thanks for this post that let me express my feelings.

Pach:

If you haven’t already seen it, you would probably appreciate an article in Harper’s from a year ago: http://harpers.org/Newsstand200512.html on Thomas Jefferson’s Bible and the Gospel of Thomas, i.e., versions without the Divinity, but with the teachings intact.

I watched about 45 minutes with Wolf this morning. Danielle Pletka is still a very angry woman who believes this horrible war can be won. That woman makes my stomach churn. I’ll never forget her little tantrum on Bill Maher’s show last fall. WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE THINKING??

I caught Tweety’s program and it was the same tired screed that is Chris Matthews, be it Hardball or the Chris Matthew’s show.

He had Gloria Borger, Elizabeth Bumiller of the NYT, David Gregory and
that fool from Time Magazine, Joe Klein. In the “Tell Me Something I Don’t Know” segment, I beleive it was Borger who said that Harriet Miers was FIRED. Apparently, Josh Bolton tried to deep 6 her last Spring and Bush went ballistic–it took about 8 months but Harriet is out on her derriere. The reason that she is gone is because she is unable to handle all of the subpoenas that will be coming their way.

you are so much smarter and better than Catholics!

Humility is a virtue, even for non-Christians. Read your post again and tell me it doesn’t reek of ego, judgement, and hubris.

I’m a liberal because I take seriously – more seriously, I think, than a “church” which rails against third world contraception and womens’ equality – the dignity and worth of human life.

Really, you are doing more for dignity and human life than those hundreds of thousands of catholics who have committed their livest to working with and educating the poor?

Its one thing to point out the faults of Catholicism (I’m not a catholic, because of that) but to say the church just isn’t as good or smart as you is incredibly arrogant.

Yeah, but but but what happened to your Power of the Purse post? I started it in my RSS reader, and when I clicked “read more” it was 404!!

[Mod Note; postus interruptus, sorry.]

exhuming mccarthy @
144

…but to say the church just isn’t as good or smart as you is incredibly arrogant.

I say the same thing about Scientology; but, in my arrogance, I’ve read a lot of Herbert and he had his shit all over Hubbard’s sorry excuse for science fiction. I would have turned to religion too, had I written BattleField Earth, the audience is a lot more gullable and willing to suspend disbelief (they call that faith).

To not think that you know better than a pre-packaged religious concept seems, to me, to be tantamount to acceptance. The first step of refuting any philosophy is to decide that there is a better philosophy to be had. That might be hubris, of course, but it is quintessentially human rather than lemming.

to say the church just isn’t as good or smart as you is incredibly arrogant.

The Truth is arrogant.

I too was raised Catholic. I joke that the Church left me, not the other way around — trading the distillation of 2000 years of music for Kumbayah in the ’60’s was *not* an improvement — but mainly I left when I got old enough to realize the disconnect between what they said in my school, generally pretty good stuff, and what Head Office was up to. I went to a great Cath HS, though. It was the Archbishop’s pet project and staffed with the best teachers from 6 or 7 orders of nuns. We didn’t find out until later that many Sr’s were really Dr’s. I can never thank those dedicated ladies enough for opening up areas of our minds with their intelligent, rigorous, honest, passionate and compassionate discussions.

I call myself an agnostic theist, again a joke. I don’t think existence of God is provable, let alone in the detail that most religions seem to be so keen on, and seems a waste of time to try. But I believe in a personal god of sorts because I like to. Otherwise swearing is so dull and there is no one to thank for good fortune. My god is entirely invented, as are all gods, I suspect, the diff being that I *know* mine’s made up ;)

Brute impulse is probably the root of my ‘progressivism’: If I see someone or animal hurt or hungry my impulse is to help. I’m just the jump-out-in-front-of-the-car-and-grab-the-kid/cat type. I also feel an urge to help trees, rocks, houses, instruments or just about anything that seems to be ‘in need’. That impulse extended/expanded/mutualized becomes the postulate that if we all cooperate, life will be better for all of us, but that’s just window dressing to explain what I am doing in the middle of the road with a cat in my arms. I believe there is enough for all, and it is our task to figure out how to make it so. I don’t get the drive to acquire wealth beyond food-clothing-shelter-art for self and family. Humans look after one another, our families, our neighbours, everyone on the earth. That’s just what we do. It feels good.

I am conservative in that I respect old ways, old buildings, old cultures and old traditions and the earth which is our home. There is, of course, much room for improvement on this earth, but I prefer slow, thoughtful and small-scale change where possible. Exception: global climate change — yikes! may have no time left on that one! Re guns — I figure that if shooting people, etc., is illegal, that should cover it. I mean, defenestration is bad, but no reason to outlaw windows. I am not a pacifist; bash me and I’ll bash you back, harder if I can, then do my best to neutralize you (literal sense here, not intended as a euphemism for kill), but I won’t attack first. Military is a needed and an honourable calling, but they are the watchdog, not the master, and should not make or drive policy. Extending that outward to nation-size, it works out to the belief that attacking outside our national borders is inexcusable.

I don’t believe that anyone has the right to tell me what to believe, although there are limits on how I may behave so as not to infringe on others lives. Others have the same rights and limits, so the task of human society should be to maximise life, liberty and happiness (or more wisely, the pursuit thereof) in a way that maximises it for all. Quite the balancing act, but that’s what it means.

I am not a Democrat and may never be. Not a joiner. But travelling in the same direction, at least for now.

exhuming mccarthy @ 142

you are so much smarter and better than Catholics!

Humility is a virtue, even for non-Christians. Read your post again and tell me it doesn’t reek of ego, judgement, and hubris.

I’m a liberal because I take seriously – more seriously, I think, than a “church” which rails against third world contraception and womens’ equality – the dignity and worth of human life.

Really, you are doing more for dignity and human life than those hundreds of thousands of catholics who have committed their livest to working with and educating the poor?

Its one thing to point out the faults of Catholicism (I’m not a catholic, because of that) but to say the church just isn’t as good or smart as you is incredibly arrogant.

Nah, it’s just good observation.

oregondave @ 129

A bumpersticker I saw the other day:

I very much like your Christ.
I don’t like much your Christians.
They are not much like your Christ.

That’s Gandhi, I believe

(Boy you sure know how to start a great Sunday morning chat. Props to you and to all the great responses. Why can’t more discussions on blogs be like this one?)

First of all, I was the best altar boy ever, the most valuable prayer (MVP) of the 1955, 1956 and 1957 regular season. I always took the 6 AM masses and even did the evening benedictions. I was the Jim Brown of genuflectors and really knew how to finish off a service – I never ran out of bounds, I went right at the devil’s linebacker and punished him. Hell I even knew what the Latin meant.

But like you it all fell apart, somewhere between puberty and a theology class at a Catholic university. (Damn those Jesuits.) I don’t argue religion any more but if someone asks for the best argument against Christianity I tell them “Just read the Bible – all of it.” If you are not laughing out loud by the third book of the Pentateuch (Torah) then you don’t have enough of a sense of humor to survive in the real world so stay where you are.

It is no mystery to me why Catholic education was so influential in my life. Because of the parochial school, I was singing Bach and Mozart (in the church choir) at the age of nine, speaking (Vulgate) Latin at eleven. Later, when I was taught about the Roman Empire, it seemed oddly familiar and that, of course, was so because Roman Catholicism is a relic of Roman organization and syncretism. The historian Christopher Dawson once commented that it is hard for someone to understand the Medieval world if they haven’t been raised in the Catholic Church. Perhaps this is too strong but in the world of my childhood I was taught to observe at least some of the rubric of Medieval daily life. For example the Angelus rang every day at noon in my neighborhood and I always stopped, proudly I might add, to utter a prayer. It could have been 1457 instead of 1957. So it was not a bad inheritance for the child of a single parent family in a working class ghetto. And don’t get me started about the saints and the martyrs – talk about action hero’s!

But adulthood comes, and with it the questions. As a child I was content with Christianity, or what Nietzsche called “slave morality.” Being at the bottom of the food chain it was comforting to know that the Creator loved me for my weakness and vulnerability and that He despised the masters of my world as much as I did (cue one of the rants against old man Potter from “It’s a Wonderful Life”). But it turned out that Christianity was just a cult. In the case of conventional American Catholicism, it was more a cult of Mary than of Jesus, but nevertheless a cult. The underlying moral code and ethical guidance was a maze of Thomistic gobbledygook that looped back on itself like a Mobius strip. Bravely I struck out on my own in search of the truth. I’m still searching.

All this did not lead me to become a “liberal” or a “progressive.” Perhaps this is because I was drafted into (another) meaningless war by Lyndon Johnson. Or perhaps it is because I found liberals talk a good game but they seldom show up for the demonstration. There is a lot more but it is a long story. I do welcome the support of “liberals” and “progressives” when they offer it.

As I say I am still searching but if I had to offer an answer to the question “What am I” I’d give you the answer Jacques Cousteau once gave. He was on one of those late night talk shows and the host asked him what he had been up to. Cousteau recounted that he had just finished sailing across the Pacific Ocean. He bemoaned the fact that every day on the sea he saw floating garbage. He said the same thing happened the year before when he sailed across the Atlantic. He began to explain that he was now going to the Mediterranean because that sea was dying too. The host stopped him and said “Why do you keep doing this if everything is so awful?” Cousteau thought for a moment and then looked up and said “Because I am a desperado.”

Somehow, in spite of everything I see and read, I still want justice and charity. Sorry but this is the best answer I got so far.

mandrake @
150

oregondave @ 129

A bumpersticker I saw the other day:

I very much like your Christ.
I don’t like much your Christians.
They are not much like your Christ.

That’s Gandhi, I believe

That’s Hotflash’s blog quote! Not a bad germ to engender a blog with!

I’m a Liberal because it comes closest to my spiritual best guess:Unity,love,compassion,service.

On the utterly pathetic pitifulness of Rush Limbaugh:

http://mediamatters.org/items/…..1#comments

johnSwifty @ 152

That’s Hotflash’s blog quote! Not a bad germ to engender a blog with!

Link? I googled but did not find . . .

Update: Never mind, I found it
HotFlash

Norman Conquest @
14

“Face the Nation” Ch. 5, 8:30 a.m. Guests: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-San Francisco.

Others may have noticed this, but when did San Francisco become a state?

it’s been a state of mind since, oh, back about…
Meteor Blades will have the exact date, I’m sure.

I am a liberal because of Jesus Christ. Everything you mentioned about his teachings and the concern he showed for “the least of these” colors my politics.

I could no more be anything other than a liberal than I could stop breathing – all because of my faith in Jesus Christ.

momly @
157

Everything you mentioned about his (Jesus’) teachings and the concern he showed for “the least of these” colors my politics.

I don’t know if you can be a Republican and be a Christian or a democrat. Jesus’ teachings define most of the principles that democrats stand for. Where did we start going so wrong? Ronald Reagan?

katie Jensen @ 113

Katie Jensen — I don’t know where you live, but please look into NACA, which is a program that will help you refinance a predatory loan, if they’re in your state. Go to their web site and see if they’re near you. This is a program that sounds too good to be true, but it’s not.

http://www.naca.com/index_flash.pbl

I got my first house as a single woman aged almost 60 through them. I never thought I could buy a house, but they made it possible for me. Please, please, please check it out.

I am a liberal for all the reasons Webster tells me I should be.

Main Entry: liberalism
Pronunciation: ‘li-b(&-)r&-”li-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being liberal
2 a often capitalized : a movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity b : a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties d capitalized : the principles and policies of a Liberal party

Sometimes I think being a liberal is part of my DNA. But of course that is not so. It is the nature of my upbringing, (very authoritarian parents). It is identifying nominally as a Catholic throughout childhood. Religious instruction and receipt of the sacraments, imposed rather than embraced or understood. Feelings of the mystical, magical child syndrome, i.e., guilt for all that was wrong around me. Realization at a very young age, that my parents weren’t emotionally equipped to deal with problems. But, I suppose what ultimately is responsible for my liberal and progressive views is the need to find an authentic self and voice. In so doing, it became obvious, that all life experience is personal and individual, deserving of respect and empathy. Choices are made out of the circumstances that shape individuals, and there is no monolithic American culture that can fit everyone. To be an American Indian is different than being an American Italian Catholic. To be an American Black is different than being a Mayflower descendant. Each is American, but uniquely American and different from each other. It just never made sense to me to believe that all people view things through the same lens. It never occurred to me that they should be compelled to do so. My husband is a quote collector. One, by a Greek philospher whose name I can’t recall says, “where it is a duty to worship the sun, the laws of heat will be poorly understood”. That is why I am a liberal…., I love people and I particularly love that they are all different.

Thanks, Pach, for opening up this discussion. “May the God of oceans fill your mouth with pearls.” Hafiz

I was raised in a community of Catholic nuns and was taught in Catholic school. I’ve had a lifelong obsession (?) preoccupation with spiritual matters. Only now I’ve become obsessed with politics which lately I’ve come to believe has to do with cyclical, universal archetypal forces manifesting through individuals, history and the cultural zeitgeist. For me there is a link between spirituality and politics, that the political is an expression of the spiritual. As an example, my feeling is that the Holy Spirit pervaded and inspired the civil rights movement. Vaclav Havel, Martin Luther King, and Gandhi are my heroes representing the integration of the spiritual and the political.

I’m a liberal because I believe in a level playing field, that everyone share in the prosperity of a nation. I believe in social and economic justice, and the rule of law. I’m a liberal because I believe we are all in this together and are responsible for one another, which is a spiritual principle behind policies like social security, etc.

Cross posted at First Draft

I was a conservative through high school – even had the Reform party (Canadian) stickers up in my window.

However as I grew up, experience with different cultures (coming from a white bread Canadian suburb it was a nice change); a chance to visit other countries, being the only white guy in a sea of black people in Zimababwe (and having street children call me “baas” – Afrikaans for “master” unnerved me tremendously); and seeing the pain a gay man had at being apart from his long-term partner for 6 weeks while studying overseas showed that the conservative ways were not the direction I wanted to go.

(That being said, many Canadian Conservatives (esp. from the old Progressive Conservative party) are more liberal than many American Democrats). The line with the corporatists and conservatives has been blurred immensely over the last 25 years.

When I lived in Austria, people asked what colour the respective American parties would correspond to in Austrian politics. We figured that most Dems would usually be similar to the black of the Christian Conservatives (though there would be a few red socialists in the mix). As for the Repubs, many would be on the right side of the Christian Conservatives. However we figured many wouldn’t be out of place in brown – the party colour of that failed Austrian meglomanical painter.

Conservatives often don’t know any better – the traditional isolationists don’t know the reality outside of their boundaries, and others are sheep wanting much more help from the government than their mantra portrays. And after seeing the clusterfuck of the last 6 years in America (plus living through a ‘conservative revolution’ in Alberta that saw thousands lose their jobs, a lack of planning, tuition hiked 10% a year for over a decade and voting electoral twits who took the punishment), I have often asked myself, “historically speaking – how often have the conservatives come out on the right side of society moving forward?”

Hell, we’d still be serfs serving the manor before King John signed the Magna Carta at Runnymeade. (Oh wait…the Magna Carta is out of service in the USA)

Isn’t it interesting that America looks like England prior to 1215:
“John had incurred general hostility. His expensive wars abroad were unsuccessful, and to finance them he had charged excessively for royal justice, sold church offices, levied heavy aids, and abused the feudal incidents of wardship, marriage, and escheat. He had also appointed advisers from outside the baronial ranks.”
“Magna Carta.” The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. http://www.answers.com/topic/magna-carta

I was raised Unitarian, and I am still a regular church goer and choir member now that I’m a senior. The Social Gospel and human rights were the part of Christianity that my church accepted and practiced. Dogmas such as the Virgin Birth, Original Sin, the Atonement and the Second Coming are not part of my heritage; and as a woman I’ve always regarded the all-male hierarchy and claims to infallibility of the Catholic Church with horror. But I’ve also always associated progressive politics with the spiritual discipline of Good Works, and worked happily with both faithful and lapsed Catholics to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.