Fitz?

Mornning Pach. Good post.

Morning Brown and Serve, nice round zero.

You should see “Deliver Us From Evil”……

Well done. I am a liberal because I couldn’t be any other way; it feels like it is hard-wired into my consciousness. I can’t understand why more people don’t have the same framework. Since I am not a Christian, or any other religion, it confounds me I’m in the group that is accused of being bad for having no basis for my ethical values. On the contrary, I think this is the only life I get, so I respect mine as well as all others. that’s why I’m a liberal.

Why I am a liberal…. Well growing up my family lived below the poverty line for practically my entire adolescence but my parents were too stubborn to go on welfare. My dad did the best he could to support a family of eight but there were long periods when he was laid off from work. Then there are people “who were born on third base and act like they hit a triple”.

My experiences in the Air National Guard (mission: a place for the sons of the politically-well-connected to avoid Vietnam) cemented my liberal leanings. I was lucky to get in after spending two years on the waiting list (I put my name on the list the week I turned 17). My sister happened to work for my local draft board and they were pulling folders from the file drawer containing my file at the time I was offered a slot. So you can bet I hear violins when conservatives whine about things like capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes. They don’t know how lucky they are.

Wonderful post, simply wonderful…

Thanks Pach,

Jack

Good morning all. I was raised Catholic too, but one can’t deny it has a extemely poor history. I am now independent when it comes to spiritual ideas.

John Edwards’ ‘08 website is johnedwards.com. But the campaign didn’t buy edwards08.com. Hillary Clinton did. Click on edwards08.com and you end with Hillary Clinton

How can I contemplate the divine when I can’t even figure out what in the name of hop-scotching god Harold Ford is doing on the Sunday shows?

I too, believe in a serious side to life. What i don’t like is other people judging me by my lack of association with a church or religion. Like somehow, that in itself makes me a bad or lesser person.

For me actual Christianity is all about the ‘Golden Rule’. And I still refer to myself as Catholic. Albeit, a weird, or unorthodox Catholic perhaps.

I was raised a catholic by first generation Italian parents. I had to go to church every Sunday until I was 18. I stopped right after that birthday. I always found priests to be creepy old men.

I’m a liberal becuase I believe in social justice. I believe in equality, civil rights and the protection they give from prejudice and hate, and the freedoms that the Constitution grant to all citizens. I also believe that the mark of a great society is how they treat the less fortunate who have no other recourse to help themselves.

My parents instilled these beliefs in me. I’m sure it had to do with them growing up with immigrant parents who had little education, and no where to turn when things got rough. Also, the many conversations with my grandmom at her kitchen table about her life once she came here were another huge influence.

Why am I a Progressive? Because I believe in a “square deal”; a “fair deal” and want a “new deal”. And I don’t believe in unprovoked wars based upon lies, and I don’t particularly care for concentration camps either. And there are other reasons why some of my dear Republican friends and family members refer to me as a liberal.

“Face the Nation” Ch. 5, 8:30 a.m. Guests: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-San Francisco.

Others may have noticed this, but when did San Francisco become a state?

I wear the new Scarlett Letter.

ATHEIST.

To me, religion is not the SOLUTION, it is the PROBLEM.

I am a Liberal because I believe in the common welfare for all and am willing to commit to upholding those values whether rich or poor.

I came from a very Catholic family on my mothers’ side, with two great aunts as nuns. My dad, an atheist, whom I always worried as a child would be in Limbo because he was not babtized, should he die. I had a aunt, she’s passed on, who suffered nervous breakdowns, shock treatments even, because after 5 kids (1 slightly retared) she got herself fixed and the priest would not forgive her.

pach, I believe this is going to be one entertaining thread

“why am I a liberal”

man I wish the edit button wouldn’t time out for this thread cuz I’m sure I’m gonna want to add and edit my entry as I think about it

anyway, here goes

I started out my life along with my dad, strong military, “America, may she always be always be right but America right or wrong”

in the viet nam days, before I was eligiable, while everyone of my generation was burning the flag I was wearing it proudly on my back.

I loved my country then, I love her now, hwoever then I wasn’t willing to do anything about the wrongs of government we know exist…it was “my country right or wrong”

I don’t know what happened, when I realized part of being a patriot is fixing what’s wrong…it’s not “love it or leave it”, it’s “love it and fix it”

I think I was in first or second grade, I don’t remember…there was a boycott of some kind at my public school…one of my friends was a teachers son and he wasn’t participating in the boycott.

I asked him why not and he asked me “perris, if the school wanted to keep you out because you were jewish, what would you think of people that boycotted the school becuase they were about to let you in.

I didn’t know where he was going, I didn’t even know the boycott was about segregation, but when he pointed out to me the actual political ramifications I switched my position on the boycott.

man I was young

later on in life, while I was wearing that flag on my denim jacket, (I am certain I was the first and I mean that seriously), I was insensed someone would want to burn it…why wouldn’t they just leave the country? I asked myself.

I was certain I would be first to go when called to our armed forces.

Then in conversation I find out the people burning the flag are doing what the founders wanted them to do, they were making their political position known as load as they can.

this is the very thing our forefathers died to protect, this is what the soldiers that laid down their lives died for, to protect our rights to speak out if we believe our government is abusing our nation.

I’m still somewhat a conservative, however in the real sense of the word.

I am a proponent of a strong military not a weakened one, a proponent of fiscal responsibility not irresponsibility, of payig for programs with the dividends from that program

and the constitution…man, I love that document…it’s as if some aliens wrote it, it seems timeless, it seems like the authors were at times writing against themselves for the good of the country and her future.

a conservative is supposed to protect the principles of the constitution…for instance, I am not a “progressive” when it comes to gun legislation and I was abhorred when they confiscated fire arms in new orleans after katrina hit.

katrina galvanized my feelings that we really need to protect our right to keep and bear arms.

rights can be rescinded by our past, a criminal doesn’t have the rights others have, he’s forfeit some rights..so I temper my beliefs as far as guns and I am certain there has to be gun control and restriction, but when the neo cons were over running our country I was convinced we must make sure we don’t loose our rights to keep arms.

and abortion

I would never take a womens choice from her, but man it pains me when a women does choose abortion

I am an unplanned child you know, and if there were legal abortion I might not be here today

I was in micro biology class…a college student.

my professor was the very first intellect I ever heard who was against a womens rights to abortion.

his conviction was based as follows;

“there is no other creature on the planet with 46 chromosomes, a fetus has 46 and is surely a human being”

I can argue with him from other angles, for instance “you cannot force a women to be an unwilling host to any creature, human being or not”

but his argument is certainly powerfull and I am surprised more anti abortion don’t use that line of reasoning in their discussion.

anyway, I could go on and on why I am indeed a liberal, most people call me the furthest to the left liberal they have ever met simply because I oppose the reagan-bush brand of conservatism with venom

yet I believe I am actually more conservative then liberal, it’s just that the bar has been moved so far to the right that I look like I’m left.

hows that saying go?

“been down so long it looks like up”?

the conservatives have been so destructive being non destructive looks like you are a liberal

anyway, I could go on forever so instead just gonna rap it up here

thanx for the thread pach

I, too, am a Catholic, though my parish priest may not know my name. And, I went to a Catholic Elementary school. For those 8 years we were taught morality and compassion. Catholic schools generally have a negative connotation but from someone who experienced it, let me tell you that it’s ill-deserved. Not a negative word(or any word) was uttered about homosexuals, divorced people or anyone who isn’t Catholic. We were never taught to hate. Instead, we were taught to have compassion and a responsibility to do good. One sermon after the reading of the Good Samaritan was these few words “The meaning of this reading is ‘When you ask someone how they are and they say ‘not good’, you ask ‘how can I help’”. That was said around 30 years ago and I still remember it and was deeply affected by it.
I admit it - I am a do-gooder. And, I have always been proud to be an American. This country has been the leader in human rights and compassion for many years, and I have been profoundly disturbed by the changes of the last 6.
So, this liberal wears the label proudly and I pray that we can return to be the country I love.

pach,

being corny is vastly underrated, and there’s certainly nothing wrong with being serious, especially if you aren’t serious all the time, and something tells me you aren’t.
i wasn’t raised catholic. my parents were southern baptist, which is what i became. i left it for the episcopal church for various reasons, including the ceremony and symbolism.
i, too, finally left the church. it was the only honest thing for me to do.
too many christians today pay little or no heed to jesus’ teachings. his “render unto caesar the things that are caesar’s and unto god the things that are god’s,” and “take all ye have and give to the poor,” these admonishments and a lot of other things he said are much more resonant with liberal politics than conservative politics.
so, to cut to the chase, i came to liberal politics by virtue of having been raised by christians much the same as you.
also, i think that we do well to restrain ourselves in how we criticize church goers. there is a percentage of them who can be persuaded to see that there is a resonance between the teachings of jesus and liberal politics. raising the minimum wage, providing decent health care for every american, especially children, these are about as christian as any government could be asked to be.

Charles Pierce @ 9

How can I contemplate the divine when I can’t even figure out what in the name of hop-scotching god Harold Ford is doing on the Sunday shows?

you don’t suppose it has anything to do with MSM lieberman-like misdirection do you?

solai @ 18

I, too, am a Catholic, though my parish priest may not know my name. And, I went to a Catholic Elementary school. For those 8 years we were taught morality and compassion. Catholic schools generally have a negative connotation but from someone who experienced it, let me tell you that it’s ill-deserved. Not a negative word(or any word) was uttered about homosexuals, divorced people or anyone who isn’t Catholic. We were never taught to hate. Instead, we were taught to have compassion and a responsibility to do good. One sermon after the reading of the Good Samaritan was these few words “The meaning of this reading is ‘When you ask someone how they are and they say ‘not good’, you ask ‘how can I help’”. That was said around 30 years ago and I still remember it and was deeply affected by it.
I admit it - I am a do-gooder. And, I have always been proud to be an American. This country has been the leader in human rights and compassion for many years, and I have been profoundly disturbed by the changes of the last 6.
So, this liberal wears the label proudly and I pray that we can return to be the country I love.

And Catholic nuns and priests don’t come knocking on your door, making a pest of themselves and giving you literature and trying to talk you into something either…

fahrender @ 20

you don’t suppose it has anything to do with MSM lieberman-like misdirection do you?

the vile emotion that courses through my veins when the mane of lieberman is invoked cannot be contained

Great post Pach! Like you, my journey as a gay person has also led me away from the church. I was raised in a Protestant home and truly took to heart the Gospel of Social Justice; the teaching of Jesus are deeply ingrained in my philosophy of life.

I converted to Roman Catholicism in my 20s and served the church faithfully for years, as a Eucharistic minister, a Lector, a Cantor, and I sang in the choir every Sunday. Then our parish priest was transferred and the new priest informed me that my “kind” was no longer welcome at the altar per order of the Bishop and Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict) because I was intrinsically morally evil. I could sit in the congregation but not take communion or serve anymore unless I repented of the sin of being myself and took a lifelong vow of chastity. It was made clear to me that I would watched carefully for any signs of backsliding. So I left.

Another decade in the Episcopal church helped me to overcome my deep sense of betrayal and rejection but by then I realized that I didn’t really believe in anything anymore but the sayings of Jesus and they are clearly contradictory to much of what the official “church” does nowadays.

My liberalism was born out the compassionate challenges of Jesus’ teachings and I continue to work with the poor in my chosen profession, advocating, struggling, fighting for them, and standing in solidarity with them as much as I can.

Ironically, the people that I end up fighting against the most to help the poor and the sick and the downtrodden are those who loudly profess to the world their supposed “Christianity”.

I am not painting with a broad brush here — I know many kind, decent Christians who follow the teachings of Christ and model their lives on his, and I admire and love them. But for every one of them I know about a dozen to two dozen more who follow the religion of bibliolatry, never speaking without prefacing it with “The Bible says….” as if a book could actually talk and ignoring the 2,000 -year chasm between culture and language that makes understanding tentative, at best.

The rest follow the religion of “Conservative Republicanism” and often espouse positions that are so directly contradictory to what Jesus is traditionally reported to have said and done that I wonder if they have ever actually listened in church or read the good book themselves at all.

Liberalism for many of us is grounded in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, whether we still belong to a church or not, and the principals of the Enlightenment. That makes being lectured by Obama and others about being intolerant and anti-religious galling at best.

I am proud to be a liberal who follows the teachings of Jesus without being a Christian and for supporting freedom for all as embodied in the philosophy of the Enlightenment. It seems to be a little more important, to me anyway, to walk the walk of my beliefs in my life rather than just talk the talk of the Bible, all the while hating those who are different from me as so many do now in the name of Christ. Namaste.

Wow, really interesting comments. I had no idea I would provoke all this.

RE Norman Conquest at 14, “When did San Francisco become a state?” The Sunday line-up has been cut-and-pasted from the Contra Costa Times, a California paper which IDs California representatives by their city. In today’s posting, they ID Pelosi as being from San Francisco–and Waxman as being from Los Angeles. Here’s the same feature as presented in today’s WashPost, with both Pelosi and Waxman IDed as “D-Calif.:”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....02359.html

Pachacutec @ 24

Wow, really interesting comments. I had no idea I would provoke all this.

now you have to respond to everyone…you have your work cut out for yourself

Good a.m. fellow traveling liberals,

I’ve always considered St. Patrick to be Ireland’s first colonizer. Lay down the tracks of Christianity, colonize the mind — especially as the Vatican political structure mastered the art so well — and the British military colonizers have their blueprint ready for a multi-century collusively colonized shock and awe.

Although I am not a Christian, there is no shortage of Catholic colonialism in my family’s history either. What I learned from youthful grade school placement (1970s) in a Catholic reeducation internment center, was that the Church, as colonizer, was very adept at teaching you that all good in the world came from it and all bad came from you.

The fact is, there is nothing written in that great piece of literature known as the Bible, that is not an organic expression of humanity, warts and all. Similarly, “the Church” does not perform or achieve good works/deeds that are not otherwise appropriations of preexisting organic expressions of either the good will of an “alter boy” or some other fellow traveler in civil society following an innate sense of the golden rule.

sláinte,
cl

Future of Iraq: The spoils of war
How the West will make a killing on Iraqi oil riches

Iraq’s massive oil reserves, the third-largest in the world, are about to be thrown open for large-scale exploitation by Western oil companies under a controversial law which is expected to come before the Iraqi parliament within days.

The US government has been involved in drawing up the law, a draft of which has been seen by The Independent on Sunday. It would give big oil companies such as BP, Shell and Exxon 30-year contracts to extract Iraqi crude and allow the first large-scale operation of foreign oil interests in the country since the industry was nationalised in 1972.

Oh, and good mornin’ all!

I was raised in a conservative family and considered myself a Republican until I went to college. I hooked up with the Young Americans for Freedom and was observing a crowd of students jeering at some conservative speaker. The YAFfer next to me said it was a crowd of “commies.” I rea;ized that we simply didn’t see things the same way. I respected the students and thought their viewpoint, whatever the details, deserved to be listened to and considered.
I’ve always felt that if a person makes a point, regardless of whether it’s a completely insane point or whether it makes eminent sense, the person should go away feeling that she was able to make her case, tha she was listened to and her points were sincerely considered.

Check out the Jefferson Bible. He, like you, believed in the message of Jesus, but did not diefy Jesus. In writing the Jefferson Bible, TJ took out everything supernatural and left in all of the message of caring for your fellow humans.

I am a jewish born atheist. I have been known on several occaissions to say that while I believe that the bible belongs in the fiction section of the library, I believe it to be possibly the greatest owners manual for a conscience ever published.

That makes 3 things that I can say, for certain, I have in common with Thomas Jefferson. We’re both atheists (or at least secularists), we’re both in agreement with the lessons in humanity found in the bible, we’re both very, very liberal. (That’s 2 out of three in common with that carpenter you mentioned.)

what in the name of hop-scotching god Harold Ford is doing on the Sunday shows?

silly hippies,
C-E-N-T-R-I-S-T
gotta have b-a-l-a-n-c-e, doncha know ?

excellent post Pacha (fahrender nails it on the corny thingy)

twolf1 @ 28

Future of Iraq: The spoils of war
How the West will make a killing on Iraqi oil riches

Iraq’s massive oil reserves, the third-largest in the world, are about to be thrown open for large-scale exploitation by Western oil companies under a controversial law which is expected to come before the Iraqi parliament within days.

The US government has been involved in drawing up the law, a draft of which has been seen by The Independent on Sunday. It would give big oil companies such as BP, Shell and Exxon 30-year contracts to extract Iraqi crude and allow the first large-scale operation of foreign oil interests in the country since the industry was nationalised in 1972.

Oh, and good mornin’ all!

Ah… now we’re getting down to “it”.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 32

twolf1 @ 28

Future of Iraq: The spoils of war
How the West will make a killing on Iraqi oil riches

Oh, and good mornin’ all!

Ah… now we’re getting down to “it”.

it wasn’t about having the oil it was about controlling the oil

WE DON’T NEED FOREIGN PETROLEUM

we can be energy independent in five years and THAT is what has to happen

Oklahoma kiddo @ 32

Ah… now we’re getting down to “it”.

See… the war will pay for itself.

very well said pach. as a retired catholic, I have similar sentiments. i’m not sure I am a liberal. being raised by two FDR Democrats, i probably just fell into it.

Twolf @ 28, Why else are we hanging around In Iraq. Riverbend had a blog Dec. 29 where she saysEnd of another Year… You know your country is in trouble when: #6. Your country is purportedly ’selling’ 2 million barrels of oil a day, but you are standing in line for 4 hours for black market gasoline for the generator.

morning, all - coffee anyone?

Perris @ 33

it wasn’t about having the oil it was about controlling the oil

WE DON’T NEED FOREIGN PETROLEUM

we can be energy independent in five years and THAT is what has to happen

perris, OK & Twolf1,

If you are not familiar w/Amory Lovins, please check out the link. I was captivated and transported (briefly) out of my decades long fossil fuel depression when I heard his speech to the Commonwealth Club. Of course we can and need to be energy independent and significantly free of fossil fuels. The blueprint for getting there is the amazing part.

http://www.commonwealthclub.or.....audio.html
http://www.commonwealthclub.or.....eleasedate

slainte,
cl

God Morning Everybody. I am a liberaltarian and for candy money I use to steal the change from the collection plate. I couldn’t buy that other crap, even back then.

Why am I a liberal? I grew up in the south in the sixties. I can remember seeing water fountains labled “colored” and not understanding why they couldn’t drink from the same fountain that I could. I went to a Baptist church, and I remember watching Martin’s “I have a dream” speech on television and wondering if my preacher was reading from the same bible King was. I’m married to a Catholic gal these days, and while I find them wanting in a lot of ways (most especially in their treatment of homosexuals), I find them remarkably tolerant.

I remember Jack Kennedy being gunned down . . . and Bobby . . . and Martin . . . and even George Wallace (assassination as a political tool). I remember the convention of 1968 and the violence in Chicago. I remember my daddy going on strike as a child, and I remember going on strike as an adult; if you want to mark where Democrats went wrong, it’s when they stopped supporting unions(think of their cravenness during the air controllers strike), and thus the working man.

I remember Dick Nixon’s subversion of democracy that continues to this day — Cheney, the Bushes, Rumsfeld, they’re all Nixon’s creations.

And boy, do I remember Vietnam, and as I inched towards the age of 18, wondering if my number would be called (I missed the draft by one year). I don’t blame anyone for trying to get out of going to Vietnam, Republican or Democrat; what I find galling are those that either refuse to own up to it, like Clinton, or worse, are gung-ho to kill everyone else’s children, like most of the Republican party leadership, and most of the Vietnam era media elite — and the ones that are reviled, like Dan Rather, are the ones that were over there getting shot at. Al Gore may not have been a combat grunt, but he was over there in the thick of it, and he volunteered to go.

I’m proud to be a liberal; I believe in social justice, racial equality, sexual equality, helping others. Back in the day I could see some good in the Republican’s philosophy of smaller government and fiscal responsibility — still do, and I hope we can steal that issue from them, but those beliefs lay on the side of the road, side-swiped by a dry-drunken president at the wheel.

I don’t know if our country will survive the next two years, but if we don’t, and the storm troopers ever come for me, I’ll be damned if I’ll deny my beliefs.

It’s Bobby Kennedy’s fault. That I’m a liberal, that is…

Because Pach said it was an open thread, I’ll let you know that the redwing blackbirds are back in town. I’m looking out my window at about 20 of them at the bird feeders.

Well said. I was raised Catholic too. I attended grades k through 5 at St. Francis Cabrini. I did the confirmation and first confession and the whole deal. I am no longer Christian either nor do I subscribe to any other superstitious dogma.
I am not liberal either. If you must categorize me politically, I suppose you could call me Progressive with a strong Liberttarian streak. I had voted mostly republican until 1992 when I saw Newt and the neocon movement taking over the party. I screamed, begged, cajoled and persuaded my fellow republicans to see what was happening but they either refused to see or welcomed the changes.
I have allied myself with the Democratic party because they are less insane than the current incarnation of the republican party. I voted straight Democratic in 2000, 2002, 2004 and 2006 because W. creeps me out. There are a couple of issues which I can’t reconcile that keeps me from becoming a full fledged liberal Democrat, the number one being that too many liberals still feel that the best way to stop violence in this country is to take away everybodys’ guns. Now I am not a huge fan of such easy access to firearms but the libertarian in me doesn’t trust the government enough to allow the military and police to have the only access to firearms. I firmly believe that when the second ammendment was put into the Constitution of the United States of America, they weren’t talking about repelling the British as Rosie O’Donnell would have you believe, nor were they talking about hunting. “A well regulated militia, being necessary for the maintenance of a free state….”, to me means that our founders knew about the corruption that comes with power and didn’t want future generations to have no recourse when it inevitably happened.
I remian an ally to the Democratic party but be warned: There are a lot of people in this country like me, who, as true independents owe no loyalty to the Democrats. I helped elect them this time, even volunteering and fund raising but I owe them nothing. If, (when) they get out of line, I’ll turn on them just like I did the republicans because though I find the Libertarians no tax policy ridiculous and unworkable, one line comes to mind, “There is no problem in this country that more freedom cannot assuage” Until we have a viable third party, there is nothing to keep the other two honest.
Sorry about the dissertation.

I am a liberal because I was born with a heart and a brain and I always thought it would be a good idea if I used them.

well, if we’re gonna talk about Iraqi Oil . . .

http://www.juancole.com/2006/1.....a-ben.html

comments are worth the read as well

I am a liberal because Jefferson, Madison, and Franklin were. I believe in Jeffersonian government as it was designed (mostly by those 3). Views which are not liberal are not in keeping with the intent of our founders. If the root word of authority is author, then the authors of the founding doctrine of our system of government are the authorities on the matter. They were liberals.

Oklahoma kiddo @
32

twolf1 @ 28

Future of Iraq: The spoils of war
How the West will make a killing on Iraqi oil riches

Oh, and good mornin’ all!

Ah… now we’re getting down to “it”.

it seems to me that those people are getting ahead of themselves. how many years is it going to be before this insurgency thingy cools off? how big is our surge? will it last longer than the insurgency’s surge? won’t our surge prolong the insurgency’s surge? i’ll bet we get a really stiff resistance to our surge!
so BP, Shell and Exxon can hold their breath for ten or so years and then the erections of the oil derricks can rise and the drilling can begin.

I’m a liberal because:

-My father, who grew up poor, would never have made it to college if not for the GI Bill.

-Having worked on reservations and in the inner city, I know the playing field in this country is far from level.

-I have held the hands of people dying alone, because of intolerance, of AIDS.

-Wealth isn’t intrinsically bad, but policies that allow a privileged few to hoard it are.

-We say, “Never again,” yet did nothing in Rwanda and do nothing in Darfur.

-Logic, reason, facts, and ethics are the basis of policy.

-The measure of a country is how it treats the vulnerable, at home and everywhere.

I want to second the point, upthread, that decent, human values precede any particular religious affiliation, in my view. I simply wrote as I did because the cradle of my developing moral sensibility as a kid came from Catholicism.

Wonderful post, Pachacutec.

I hate that the posts I’d really like to thoughtfully respond to seem to go up when I don’t have time to respond. Does anyone actually read and respond to old threads once new ones go up? I know things are different at different blogs, so that’s why I’m asking.

Good morning.

I have been a religous vagrant. I was raised Luthern/Missouri Synod (it was the closest church and my mother’s best friend went there), went to Prosetant bible camp (I went with a neighbor), attended Wed. night Babtist bible camp with my best friend, and then switched to Catholic when I got married. And last attended a born again church where my mother wanted to go because of the same friend that took her to the Lutheran church.

The problem with them all is not one of them urged people to take care of the poor or to listen to the forgiving words of Jesus. NOOOO. They all told me that if I strayed even a little bit from the straight and narrow, I would go straight to hell. No detours. And their church (whichever one I was attending at the time) was the one and only one — there were no other truly godlike churches.

Nonesense. Now I worship God’s creations - birds, grass, trees, sky — one cannot be closer to heaven than outside. When I see these huge monsters of churches all decked in gold and such, I see man’s ego and bragging about his/her faith is better than the next church. And attending the born again church with their jaquars and Cadillacs in the parking lot, I saw rich people fawning all over each other. Yuck.

Digby over at Hullaballoo summed it up quite succinctly:

I am a liberal because that is the political philosophy of freedom and equality. I am a progressive because that is the political path to a better future. I am a member of the DemocratIC party because that is the party that stands for freedom, equality and progress.

If there were more candidates like Bernie Sanders, I would be a socialist-alas, I’m in Kansas-I agree with Kurt Vonnegut when he says that socialism has gotten a bad rap. Being a socialist only means you think that everyone has the right to eat.

Anyway, that’s why I’m a liberal. Freedom. Equality. Justice. Progress.

Real. Effing. Simple.

Morning all.

Good post, Pach. Looks as if a lotta pups feel that way too. I’m enjoying the read. ;->

From a fairly young age, I’ve always had a hard time understanding how some people who claimed to be deeply religious, to the point of insisting God “spoke” to them and “told” them to do what they were doing, considered themselves to be pious, and yet claimed folks with other beliefs were arrogant.

Once, I asked a fundamentalist minister’s wife just how she and her husband handled situations in which members of their congregation had disagreements about what was “right”, and each insisted God spoke directly to them, informing their own personal beliefs.

“Uh, that can be a problem,” said she. I dropped the subject, and we remained friends, although she always looked at me kinda strangely thereafter.

I suppose most would call me a secular humanist. I have deeply held beliefs, but often wonder at the various definitions of “religious”, especially when the term is used in an exclusive sense. I will always be mystified by those who can, seemingly with a clear conscience, call themselves “pro-life”, yet act with complete malice toward the living world around them, human and otherwise.

I don’t mean this to sound unduly negative. I respect and appreciate any beliefs folks hold which help to sustain them spiritually and, especially, to treat the rest of the world with respect and kindness.

P.S. And I, too, am a liberal because of what those churches taught me — they taught me what NOT to be. I often think what would Jesus think if he entered those churches and heard them yelling their demands for obedience.

I’m really sick and tired of this “God Bless America” crap. I’m with Howard Zinn when he says, why not say god bless everyone everywhere. Like why should Americans think they only have favoritism with god.

Nothing corny about this post, my friend. Whatever makes people to want to reduce suffering in the world should be recognized as valuable. I’m not Christian myself by wish anyone moved by the words and example of Jesus good luck in taking back their faith (or its public, institutional, rhetorical manifestations) from the reactionary bigots who have hijacked it these past few decades.

In case anyone is interested, I think this is a worthwhile read. It’s by Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori:
Evangelistic Listening

Renee — I, too, often get to threads just when I have a short timeframe to join in.

I have at time responded to old threads. Especially the recipe ones and ‘Pull Up a Chair” threads. This might be a good one though to come back to add a comment or two.

GrandmaJ @ 50

Good morning.

I have been a religous vagrant. I was raised Luthern/Missouri Synod (it was the closest church and my mother’s best friend went there), went to Prosetant bible camp (I went with a neighbor), attended Wed. night Babtist bible camp with my best friend, and then switched to Catholic when I got married. And last attended a born again church where my mother wanted to go because of the same friend that took her to the Lutheran church.

The problem with them all is not one of them urged people to take care of the poor or to listen to the forgiving words of Jesus. NOOOO. They all told me that if I strayed even a little bit from the straight and narrow, I would go straight to hell. No detours. And their church (whichever one I was attending at the time) was the one and only one — there were no other truly godlike churches.

Nonesense. Now I worship God’s creations - birds, grass, trees, sky — one cannot be closer to heaven than outside. When I see these huge monsters of churches all decked in gold and such, I see man’s ego and bragging about his/her faith is better than the next church. And attending the born again church with their jaquars and Cadillacs in the parking lot, I saw rich people fawning all over each other. Yuck.

Well spoken! There is nothing worse IMO than hypocrisy and these people have it in spades. I am a graphic artist and a lot of our clients are churches. The past two years have seen every one of them trying for mega church status. One even went so far as to have me make up a “pledge book” which would make donating to support this huge undertaking easier. Some of the suggestions to eek out more money from the congregation included: “Skip one meal per week and donate that money to the church” and “Take daughter’s babysitting money and donate it to the church”. Sickening. I never so “Blessed are the wealthy” in the bible not have I read “How blessed are the warlike of spirit”. Absolutely disgusting.

I never really thought about a label for myself until I hit around age 40,and the political divides in this country became so polarized. Of course there’s always been a divide,maybe it’s just that I only got informed enough to see it and feel it first hand by then.

I left religion a long time ago. Even as a child I never really bought that only Christian people have morals and values and that you had to have church and that particular religion to have those things. That’s sort of silly I think,you either have a sense of what’s right and wrong or you don’t. And when it comes to wrong,some stuff just isn’t negotiable,no matter what a book or “leader”says about it. I also never liked the idea of having to have a whole series of “middlemen”to get to God. If I’m a child of God,and God loves me,the rest should come fairly easy,as far as a relationship goes.

During Iran/Contra it occured to me that the US government doesn’t ever seem to back leaders in other countries who want what’s best for the most people. And,in backing evil bastards,it always ends up biting this nation on the ass. Saddam,Osama,Noriega,those guys got to where they were with our help,then they end up being our most evilest of enemies. And in recent history,the same damned names keep popping up in relation to those evil world leaders,like Rummy,Cheney,Negroponte,North,Kissinger,etc,etc. Methinks THEY are the problem,or at least most of it.

In reality,I think most Americans are socially liberal(we don’t honestly care about people’s sex lives or religion unless those things are used to hurt others),and fiscally conservative(we want the government to spend our money wisely and well,investing in our citizens and their future.We don’t want the gov’t to be stingy and mean about that). This of course goes against what the Wise Ones inside the Beltway tell us,but it’s not reality for most of America.

I guess I’m a liberal mostly because it seems like it’s been liberals who have pushed for better lives for everyone,not just a select few. I believe that eliminating poverty,hunger,disease (and their underlying causes)will help end wars,crime,hatred and suffering.

Lindey Graham is blaming the generals for Iraq.

Oops! I wanted to add that I got some subtle revenge on one of them. They wanted me to make an illustrated presentation for their stockholders, (churches have stockholders, who knew?), and one of the illustrations they wanted was a sanctuary. This presented me with the rare thing that I relish in my job, the opportunity to do some original art.
From memory, I drew the sanctuary from the first chapel in the game “Return to Castle Wolfenstein”, complete with treasure items. I even put in the sniper upstairs. They loved it so much that they have hired us to do all of their work. I guess none of them have played Return to Castle Wolfenstein.

MargaretPOA - to think all these Christians are urging more war. It does not compute with what I believe Jesus/god would want people to do. They make a great deal about jesus being a humble carpenter — the born again and the pope should try it sometime. They should leave their palaces and walk in the dirt, see the poor, etc. etc.

Hypocrisy is thriving among most Christians who are too busy telling the world exactly how they should behave while they rob everyone.

The perception of modern Catholics is not liberal, more like screaming anti-abortionists. It is nice to see so many Catholics professing liberalism.

Here is another nice Catholic boy’s version of “why I’m a liberal”…

If by a “Liberal” they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people - their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties - someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad; if that is what they mean by a “Liberal,” then I’m proud to say I’m a “Liberal.” - John F. Kennedy

re: watching press the meat
is it just me or does Sen. Lindsey Graham enunciate his southern twang bullshit like he has a mouthful of same?

I learned liberal values in Sunday School. I learned about social injustice in grade school after becoming intrigued by the underground railroad and the struggle of “colored people” to rise above being slaves. The stories of Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglas and Washington Carver filled me with anger at our country and a burning sense of the hypocrisy of our leaders.

The 60’s fed that sense of injustice and Martin Luther King, Jr. gave eloquent voice to the Christian responsibility to be politically active to fight against the institutionalized prejudice. I was inspired by MLK, the epitome of a true Christian, who was inspired by God and the suffering of his people to fight for truth and justice.

I’m an Episcopalian. There are many Repub’s in my church and over the years, I’ve been able to challenge many of their political views by referal to biblical passages. And, I have helped bring some to the light, to vote democratic for the first time in their lives.

I also understand Gandhi’s comment: I like your Jesus, I don’t care for your Christians. Jesus was a liberal and would be crucified again today.

I wasn’t against Clinton being impeached, although my opinion wasn’t well recieved by my friends. To me the point was he lied to a grand jury. The fact it was about a blowjob was beside the point, blowjob or snowjob whatever, as president you tell the Truth. Now I’m waiting for Bushs’ turn.

Huckleberry has that schtick down to a well honed political art. He is not just Lindsay Graham: he plays a character named “Lindsay Graham.”

In fairness, this is really true of all politicians and public figures, to greater and lesser extents, even the ones we like. It’s just that Graham’s Struther Martin routine has gotten awfully kitschy.

Pachacutec @
48

I want to second the point, upthread, that decent, human values precede any particular religious affiliation, in my view. I simply wrote as I did because the cradle of my developing moral sensibility as a kid came from Catholicism.

Pach,

My point was to expand and add emphasis to your excellent post and to other comments about the fundemental chicken & egg question of morality, decent human values and liberalism, on one hand, versus religion and political religiousity and/or religious affilations on the other hand.

That is why I made the point about organized religion harvesting organic expressions of liberal humanity as opposed to decent human values running in the downstream direction, i.e., from political institution to religious affiliate.

I did not think for a second that what you wrote suggested anything otherwise.

slainte,
cl

Lindsay got today’s memo

What is wrong with Pelosi? New Orleans needs help now, but I have yet to a hear a single word from the Dems in Washington about what they are going to do to help the city.. Are they going to ignore New Orleans, too?

Yep, I’m lib, too, but taking a political stance don’t mean squat when New Orleans needs help. Disaster isn’t liberal or conservative. Bush caused the flooding, but he isn’t going to do a thing, so it is up to Pelosi & co. to take action- the state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans are simply overwhelmed.

Yeah, go ahead and sit at your computer, sip coffee & blog about sports & trivia, but did you stop to think that there are people in New Orleans right now who would be grateful for a safe place to live? A roof over their heads? Who need food?

Go over to kos & read,

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/6/203746/5833

Then see if you feel all cozy sitting in your home while New Orleans suffers. I, for one, am not going to celebrate the Democratic majority of Congress until the actually do something, as in, ala Edwards, go to New Orleans and pitch in, as in help the city. Now.

the people that read this blog should be burying their representatives in emails and making a huge stink about New Orleans- it is plain that unless we make a stink, Pelosi isn’t going to move. Call- email, whatever, but do something now, not tomorrow, to help new Orleans.

One thing the Catholic church has gotten down in the last 20 centuries is indoctrination. I’m a lapsed Catholic as are many of my friends and other churches do not feel right when you’ve been raised thoroughly Catholic. To me that’s because of the lack of universality. “catholic” actually means universal in the lower case, and the sense of participating in something ritualistic and greater than yourself just doesn’t come to me in other churches that do their own thing.

As a film professor, I was asked frequently a few years ago if I was going to see “The Passion.” I always answered the same way: “I already know how it ends.” Which I admit I mostly said to shock my students, but it was true. :) I still don’t understand the people who focus exclusively on how Jesus died (especially Mel Gibson’s mania for pain) when I believe it’s way more important what he said when he was alive.

This was a solitary man - a Jew, who was a second or possibly lower class citizen - from an oppressed state under the thumb of the most powerful empire in existence, who contradicted the social and religious order of the entire known world by himself. While the entire Mediterranean civilization basically held that rich people are fundamentally more worthy than poor people (and enjoying the favor of the gods) he said no, you are all equal in the eyes of God. What’s more, those of you who are pure of heart and devout will be rewarded no matter your station here on earth. And the only rule that matters, the one you must live by above all others, is to treat others as you would have them treat you.

Is that why I’m a progressive liberal? Probably. I see a lot of people on the right who seem to be “me (and only people like me) first and to hell with everyone and everything else” which is selfish and misguided and certainly not following any permutation of the Golden Rule no matter how they twist their logic. The left side of the spectrum, I’d like to believe, is more about commonality and lifting up everyone, regardless of the minor differences between people.

The left, in other words, is about the public good. The common good - a universal benefit, something we can all join together and work towards. Being raised Catholic, how could that not appeal to me?

Caoimhin Laochdha:

Thanks. I understood where you were coming from. It’s just a point I wanted to amplify, just in case people from other religious traditions are surfing through and feel as if we’re creating a climate a little bit myopic. I don’t want anyone feeling unwelcome.

Plus you get the “Pachacutec” award for names difficult for the native English speaker to handle, read or articulate!

Typo? Thot CNN late edition was 11.

I really won’t take very kindly to lectures from anyone about our commitment to raising awareness of the plight of New Orleans when this site has been one of the recognized leaders online in keeping the needs of the people there alive.

That said, I’m all for people doing more, making calls and pressuring Democrats to do more.

There are people all over the world suffering.

azureblue @ 68

What is wrong with Pelosi? New Orleans needs help now, but I have yet to a hear a single word from the Dems in Washington about what they are going to do to help the city.. Are they going to ignore New Orleans, too?

Yep, I’m lib, too, but taking a political stance don’t mean squat when New Orleans needs help. Disaster isn’t liberal or conservative. Bush caused the flooding, but he isn’t going to do a thing, so it is up to Pelosi & co. to take action- the state of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans are simply overwhelmed.

Yeah, go ahead and sit at your computer, sip coffee & blog about sports & trivia, but did you stop to think that there are people in New Orleans right now who would be grateful for a safe place to live? A roof over their heads? Who need food?

Go over to kos & read,

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/6/203746/5833

Then see if you feel all cozy sitting in your home while New Orleans suffers. I, for one, am not going to celebrate the Democratic majority of Congress until the actually do something, as in, ala Edwards, go to New Orleans and pitch in, as in help the city. Now.

the people that read this blog should be burying their representatives in emails and making a huge stink about New Orleans- it is plain that unless we make a stink, Pelosi isn’t going to move. Call- email, whatever, but do something now, not tomorrow, to help new Orleans.

I was raised Roman Catholic by very intelligent, progressive, decent, devout parents. They lived on 10% of their income and gave the rest to charity … a sort of reverse tithing. I learned young how to live very modestly and those lessons have shaped my life in the best way. I stopped going to mass right after confirmation (age 12) and my parents, generously and wisely, decided it was more important that their daughter be an altruist and good person who spent Sundays helping the poor than be a weekly church-goer (although those things aren’t mutually exclusive–and they knew I knew that, too).

I’m now a big proponent of Catholic social teaching (and its preferential option for the most vulnerable and blueprint for social justice) and a consistent ethic of life. I teach at a Jesuit-run, all Latino/a, inner city high school that gets 99% of its graduates into college (one kid last year went into the Marines — we pray for him every day). Lessons from childhood frugality allow me to keep my rent paid. I spent most of 2002 and part of 2003 in jail for my actions protesting the buildup to the Iraq war. Priests (most of whom I had never met and I still don’t know all of their names) made sure I had free legal representation at each court hearing. What surprised me, and it shouldn’t have, was most of my cellmates were nuns/sisters, guided by their religious training and a pope who was anti-war from day one. Jesus remains my best liberal role model and I’m lucky to work with people who feel the same way.

Peace to all.

The left, in other words, is about the public good. The common good - a universal benefit, something we can all join together and work towards. Being raised Catholic, how could that not appeal to me?

************************************************
Hear, hear! Though I am not a card carrying Democrat, I am all about the public good and looking forward and not back. I also absolutely reject the idea that “goodness” and those qualities which nurture and assist must come from religious values. Most religions espouse, (if not practice), such virtuous thinking. Most religions are also not Christian and most are not even based on monotheism as we see it. The good comes from within people. The people at least that aren’t overcome with greed and power as an end to itself.

And isnt face the nation on now?

With Pelosi?

egregious @
78

And isnt face the nation on now?

With Pelosi?

yes, it just started. my guess - difference between eastern and pacific time zones

Ive always been liberal. Growing up Episcopalian in New England there just didnt seem to be any other way. Kennedys were my heros and I went to extremely liberal Antioch College in 1960.

Now, living in red TN I am even more liberal and anti-war.

Pachacutec @
71

Caoimhin Laochdha:

Thanks. I understood where you were coming from. It’s just a point I wanted to amplify, just in case people from other religious traditions are surfing through and feel as if we’re creating a climate a little bit myopic. I don’t want anyone feeling unwelcome.

Plus you get the “Pachacutec” award for names difficult for the native English speaker to handle, read or articulate!

Pach,

Thank you but believe me, I don’t deserve any awards. Besides the fact is, other than my name, there are only about 25 Irish words I can pronounce myself.

slainte,
cl

p.s. Caoimhin=Kevin and Laochdha has so many correct (colonized) English variants that it hard to pronounce incorrectly.

Meet the press is usu 9am. Well, enough trouble.

what u gonna do if chimpy announces surge?</