
A few weeks ago, we were discussing the mysterious poisoning death of former Russian secret serviceman Alexander Litvinenko. At that juncture, most people discussing the issue were of the theory that the assassination was carried out by the Putin government, but something about that just didn't seem quite right to me.
The other lingering question is, obviously, who did it and why. Occam's razor says to always go for the simplest explanation, and that would be that the Kremlin silenced Litvinenko as well as Moscow journalist Anna Politkovskaya. That just doesn't sit right with me, though. Why go to so much trouble when all they had to do was shoot him and leave his body in an alley? Why invoke such a public, excruciating death, one that would enable Litvinenko to point the finger of blame at the Putin government?
And from this post on December 1st:
And here's where I am going to venture into the realm of rank speculation. My personal theory is that this and other recent murders of Putin's ideological opponents (that link is to a story about journalist Anna Politkovskaya, who was gunned down in the elevator of her Moscow apartment building) may not in fact be the work of the Kremlin, but rather the work of some agency with a direct interest in bringing down the Putin government.
In the years since the introduction of the free-market system in Russia, the Russian mafia has amassed a huge amount of wealth and power, as well as private citizens like jailed petroleum oligarch Mikhail Kordorkovsky. Moscow now has the highest concentration of millionaires of any city in the world. When capitalism came to the former USSR, some savvy operators seized that opportunity to suck up and hoard most of the money in the country.
There are very powerful interests at work here, and it would not surprise me to find that this plot has layers on layers of intrigue. You may need a state apparatus to make polonium-210, particularly what appears to be a "weaponized" form, but all you need to buy it is money. At every stage of the process, there are people who could potentially be bought out or threatened. And one thing the power players in the former Soviet Union have in abundance is money.
So, I would not be so eager to lay the blame for this and other seemingly politically motivated murders at the feet of the Putin administration. Not because I believe that they are particularly good or just, but because I think it would be hasty to assume that they are the only malevolent actors in this particular drama.
My initial specualtion was that perhaps Litvinenko was murdered by parties acting on behalf of Yukos Oil CEO Mikhail Kordorkovsky. Just prior to his poisoning, Litvinenko had returned to the UK from Israel, where he met with former Yukos executive Leonid Nevzlin to bring him a purported dossier of the Kremlin's dirty tricks against Yukos.
A DOSSIER drawn up by Alexander Litvinenko on the Kremlin's takeover of the world's richest energy giant will be given to Scotland Yard overnight as police investigate the former KGB spy's secret dealings with some of Russia's richest men.
It emerged yesterday that Mr Litvinenko travelled to Israel just weeks before he died to hand over evidence to a Russian billionaire of how agents working for President Vladimir Putin dealt with his enemies running the Yukos oil company.
He passed this information to Leonid Nevzlin, the former second-in-command of Yukos, who fled to Tel Aviv in fear for his life after the Kremlin seized and then sold off the $US40 billion ($51 billion) company.
My personal theory here was that Litvinenko may have used that meeting to attempt to extort money from the Yukos executives through some form of blackmail, leading to an order by the oligarchs for his assassination. While I may have been slightly off in that regard, according to CBS's "60 Minutes" tonight, I may have actually been in the ball-park.
(CBS)
In the months before his death, Litvinenko needed money; he needed a job and spoke of having found one. What was that job? Litvinenko spoke to Julia Svetlichnaya, a Russian graduate student, who sought out his help on a book she was writing. But what he wanted to talk about were his plans concerning those rich and powerful Russian oligarchs."He told me that, at that moment, he’s doing a project for blackmailing one of the Russian oligarchs which resides in UK," Svetlichnaya tells Simon. "He thought that it was actually an o.k. thing to do because this particular person, as Litvinenko claimed, had a connection with the Kremlin, had a connection with Putin. And so in his view it, was o.k. to blackmail him."
In the "60 Minutes" report, Bob Simon asks security expert Mark Galeotti:
"There are many ways to kill a man. Using an obscure radioactive isotope is a rather uncommon way. Why do you think this way was chosen?"
Galeotti: "Essentially it’s because of the theater of assassination. If all you want to do is silence someone, then you push them under a bus, you arrange an apparent mugging that’s gone wrong, or something like that," Galeotti says. "If you’re going to carry out a killing using a radioactive isotope like this, you want it to be a big story."
Which brings me back to this assertion of mine from December:
UPDATE: In the comments we were just discussing that if someone other than the Russian government is doing this, they're not just sending a signal to the Kremlin that says, "We are framing you for these murders," they're also saying, "We have access to your nuclear chemicals."
Or someone's nuclear chemicals. Otherwise, why not use ricin again or just a gun?
I still believe this. Someone may well be sending a message to the Kremlin. I am not an apologist for the Putin regime by any stretch of the imagination, but I think it's naïve for us to assume that the only bad actors in this murder are the FSB and the Kremlin.
We may never know what happened, and the last thing I want to do is fall into the Pajamas Media trap of stating as unassailable fact that somehow I know better what's happening in this case than the highly trained professionals on the ground, especially from way over here at my laptop in Athens, Georgia. Still, I will be watching this story unfold even more closely now and I will be very, very eager to see what Dr. Hillhouse at The Spy Who Billed Me has to say about it.
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Fitz? Being the first commenter twice in one day is too weird.
Fitz! TRex!
Brownandserve @ 0
That seems to be the way of it, though. When you’re on a roll, you’re on a roll. Nice of twolf1 to let some other people have a shot at the prize.
Pelosi!
OT, but Spocko’s site is back up.
ouiski @ 4
Viva Spocko!
it’s gotta be the mob… just gotta be – it’s the only thing that makes any sense…
Well, for a dinosaur, you may have scoped it out some.
But, who has wanted their hands on Russian oil for, oh, since the US put the former Soviet Union through the wringer with an economic “shock and awe” program?
OldCoastie @ 6
Well, clearly, I’m going to have to make Eason Jordan buy me a ticket to London to go and sort this shit out.
I think when you wrote
you hit the nail on the head. I suspect that in addition to the “known unknowns” there are “unknown unknowns” (to use a rummy-ism) that we haven’t even thought about.
TRex @ 9
clearly!
;-)
On this story, I recall that a number of people who were in contact with Litvinenko were also affected by the Polonium 210. I’ve had a quick look but can’t find any follow-up on their condition. Does anyone know more?
As I recall there was quite a bit of polonium controversy in those threads. I find whirledview is generally a technically impeccable source; here’s CKR’s take on it in her Polonium FAQ.
Persiflage @ 11
No one else is seriously sick, although the Italian spook that met with Litvinenko in London received five times the lethal dose. He’s in jail in Italy right now on unrelated charges, but so far he is symptom free.
TRex @ 14
Thanks T-rex, I knew you’d know. What knowledgable therapod you are! Typical of me, I feel for the innocent bystanders. Who knew professional assassins were such drama queens!
Only slightly off-topic, but, I simply have to ask: how is a Houston-based new energy source consortium not going to be heavily influenced by the oil industry–especially when it was a boondoggle from the start initiated by Tom DeLay?
montag @ 16
I have no answer Montag, just wanted to thank you for using one of my favourite words – boondoggle!
Persiflage @ 16
You’re going to be hearing and reading it a lot in the near future, methinks. :)
Thanks for updating this, TRex. I have been following this story closely.
Tis a great who-done-it with a large cast of characters and each cast member is not quite what they appear to be.
Wasn’t the Italian guy, who 60 Minutes tonight said in in jail on unrelated matters, also involved in the Niger forgeries or is my memory faulty (again)?
Suzanne @ 18
Umm, no, your memory is fine. There’s no evidence per se that he was directly involved, but, he was the guy Italian intelligence sent over to brief Stephen Hadley and to say, “hi, guys.”
And, as I recall, he is old buddies with Michael Ledeen….
montag @ 18
I imagine I’ll be seeing quite a lot of favourite words like investigation, prosecution conviction and impeachment.
Small quibble, TRex.
horde should be hoard.
Tho’ given this is the realm of the forces of Tamerlane and Genghis and assorted other hordes…maybe not…
And 60 Minutes may be almost as old as your theropod self but it still rocks!
Holy shit.
Persiflage @ 20
We can only hope, and, in a Republican political sense, add “implosion” to that list. :)
Dam ewe, homonyms!!
Prairie Sunshine @ 22
quibblette?
punaise @ 25
Or, in America-speak, a mini-quibble.
punaise @ 26
Would quibblette not be a female quibble? Maybe a small quibble is a quibbling.
montag @
20
Ledeen is always right, you know. Just ask him.
TRex @ 23
That was why I was asking – my reaction was very, very similar.
montag @ 27
Quibbles and Bits.
Whored?
Prairie Sunshine @ 22
one Steppe at a time
S’quibble?
bonkers @ 30
Or, if we’re referring to a MalKKKin exclusive, Quibbles and Twits.
Or, should I say, Squibbles and Twits.
or, as the eyes glaze over after a loooooonnnng day… quibbie.
montag @ 35
Speaking of Twits…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRBkgshj8Cw
I like quiblings.
TRex @ 37
You were always a family-values sort of dinosaur…. :)
montag @ 35
Queeg ills and …
TRex @ 38
Quiblings is good. Better than Quibchen.
I need to fix myself something to eat before it gets too late. I’ll be back in a bit.
punaise @ 39
amber grits.
Amber waives off grain…
montag @
20
John LeCarre’s mind must be about to explode.
and, as my ol’ pal Hunter S. Thompson once said:
“When the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro.”
why is it when I read “Malkin”, I see Quibbles and Tits?
Oilfieldguy @
32
is a horde of whores a hoard?
Prairie Sunshine @ 43
Because perps shall mount stains mo’ in jest, eh?
Fern @
41
Or perhaps quibligula.
fahrender @ 46
Harum Scarum. :)
prostratedragon @ 49
Quibligula…whose incessant nitpicking nearly brought the Julio-Claudian dynasty to its knees!
Aha – here is the why of his being arrested and by who (dated 12/25/06):
bold mine – I wonder whose secrets and what kind of arms?
montag @
50
sadaam’s madam.
I have previously noted here the similarity of the deaths of Litvinenko and Cyrus Hashemi, an Iranian banker and arms merchant, who in July 1986 in the peak of health, one week after a clean physical exam, checked in to a London hospital, was diagnosed as having Leukemia, and died a week later. It turns out that he played a pivotal role in the October Surprise and the Iran/Contra scandal. Apparently, he set up a sting that netted high-level folks in both the U.S. government and that of Israel.
Three weeks before the Litvenenko case occurred, a well-connected friend of a friend told me that Hashemi had been slipped a plutonium cigarette. That made a bit of sense at the time, but when polonium was mentioned the Litvinenko case, I assumed I had mis-heard. Whatever.
It would seem to me that a difficult to detect substance that creates the symptoms of leukemia would be the choice of folks who want to hide the fact of an assination and to make it difficult to suspect and/or trace.
Obviously, that wasn’t the case with Litvinenko, though it may have been in the case of Hashemi.
I spent a few hours googling on this stuff one night, and found some of the most bizarre conspiracy-theory stuff I’ve ever read — straight out of the X Files.
Oilfieldguy @ 32
Where?
Suzanne @ 51
Hmm, now I have to backtrack on what I said previously, because I had made an assumption, because no names were previously mentioned.
The guy I was thinking of was Nicolo Pollari, who was head of Italian intelligence, who was questioned by the Italian authorities for his role in the abduction of the Egyptian cleric, Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr.
TRex @
6
and the General is really hot this weekend. he’s got a great suggestion for Bob Eiger and KSFO and the perfect remedy for Fuckwad’s delimma.
Later, she was asked, did you hoard all that money yourself, she responded that her sister whored half of it.
hmmm planet planet has an article that somewhat gives his background… i could find no mention of ladeen in it but…
Sushi bar man is a nuclear waste expert.
also, during tonights 60 minutes, they gave the timeline as meeting at the sushi bar followed by the meeting at the hotel, where the poisoning is believed to have occurred. if that timeline is correct, how did sushibar man also get radiated? he was in the hospital for his exposure and this arrest followed his release.
fahrender @ 57
Viva Spocko!
and the General is really hot this weekend. he’s got a great suggestion for Bob Eiger and KSFO and the perfect remedy for Fuckwad’s delimma.
Fuckwad’s dilemma?
Sophist’s Choice.
montag @ 56
musatafa beena someone else
Notify Hans Blix.
“Hello, I’m Hans looking for arms.”
back in the ’90’s when the FBI was trying to deal with the Russian Mafia’s inroads into the U.S. somebody put it this way:
” The Italian Mafia dropped out of school. They play checkers. The Russian Mafia have PhD’s. They’re fond of chess.”
Oilfieldguy @ 62
“….and I’m going to, uhh, wrist the culprit”
glen beck is dangerous.
take care y’all. gotta go pretend i’m working ……..
“Hello, I’m Hans looking for arms.”
Hello, I’m Arn looking for Hans. I vant to pump you up.
punaise @ 60
Don’t think so… he was, uh, sama guy they were looking to na(b), sir.
ReneND @ 64
Only because he and the people who hired him are terminally stupid.
This whole story is very John Le Carre, innit?
Oh TRex, you have to pull out this topic when I can’t stay and play!! Fooey!!
Wigwam (54) — yeah, had seen the Po-210 cigarette, but I think I kicked this one around with Larisa at AtLargely.com; symptoms aren’t of inhalation but ingestion. Worse, it looked to me like multiple exposures; Spy Who Billed Me validated that, looks like she thinks 2 exposures (one in sushi bar, one in hotel room, sloppy “application”).
After doing more research and following a bunch of stories on Russia, it’s not at all clear that this was the oligarchs and NOT FSB. Because of time constraints I can’t supply links, sorry — but can say that at least one outlet said the Po-210 was FSB-origin (some sort of chemical or nuclear attribute that ID’d the material). There have been comments in other sources that there is a dual-agent — someone who is in Putin’s administration or FSB, who is also inside with the oligarchs, and may be loyal to the FSB. Also have seen other commentary that says Italian PM elected over Berlusconi is actually FSB person (watch out, Scaramella, if you’re not FSB, too).
And then there’s the entire debacle that is the global energy war, with Russia extorting massive rolling price increases from buyers of natural gas — starting with Ukraine a couple of years ago (one poisoned presidential-candidate), Georgia, now Belarus. Thought they’d also rolled Turkey, Poland, Germany (one of which been supplying the UK with natural gas, and at least two of which receive natural gas through Belarus), but this needs checking.
And now new contracts with the third largest source of natural gas in the world, Turkmenistan (whose president conveniently dropped dead a couple of weeks ago, before the new agreements).
Oh, BTW, the 2nd largest supplier of natural gas is…[drumroll]…Iran, who had a purchase agreement worth about US$850 million with Russia dating back to 1995 for uranium enrichment technology.
As el Gato Negro says: So.
(p.s. FSB = formerly known as KGB)
Southern California currently has a murder trail, 5 victims dumped into a reservior, involving Russian mafia. One turned state witness and his quote is the mentality of the Russian Mafia.. “I am professional criminal…”
Article here.
montag @
69
Glen’s a bit wierd, but, like Jesus, Elvis, and Marx, it’s his following that worries me.
Wigwam @ 72
If he weren’t on the air, he wouldn’t have a following–that’s why I included the bozo execs at CNN in that remark.
montag @ 69
But he comes across to the flea brains as someone who hates all politicians. So the dems must be really bad if he singles them out. It is his non partison schtick some will listen to. I saw many watching around airport teevees. He was not ignored. That is scary to me.
ReneND @ 74
Which sort of proves that a captive audience will watch anything on television. :)
Smash the remote and American males will even watch the Home Shopping Network 24/7…. :)
Rayne – I suspect all these guys are connected… that the lines dividing the FSB and the Russian mob and the rest of ‘em are not really there – same bunch o’ cats…
Hello, everyone. Be sure to tell me if you find this useful.
OldCoastie @ 77
I think this is partially true. There are factions within the Russian gov’t, the security services and the mob. The fissures break down over who supports who and who doesn’t. Berezhovsky, Khodorkovsky and others don’t support Putin and have paid the price.
The Khodorkovsky prosecution made very clear where the line was. I wouldn’t be so hasty to exclude Putin and (segments of) the FSB. This is a lot murkier than the murk that meets the eye.
Patrick 4/4 @ 79
it’s a very tiny sandbox…
OldCoastie @ 79
Anyone who doesn’t account for a bunch of guys with the initials, EM, CT, BP, OP, DS and the like isn’t seeing the big picture. Seeing this as just a Russian internal power play is just split-screen….
montag @ 81
I think they’re more than happy to buy from whoever comes out on top, but this looks like a supply-side dispute to me.
Patrick 4/4 @ 81
No. It’s not about being happy buying from whomever. It’s about getting control at the source, at the cheapest possible rate of extraction.
It’s never been about access. It’s been about maximum profit.
We’re fighting a war (at taxpayer expense) for oil at the cheapest price in Iraq now, with another war for same on the way. (Any doubt of that, look at reports of the current PSA deals contemplated by the Iraqis at the behest of the U.S. embassy.)
Anyone can buy on the spot market at the prevailing price. But, controlling the price at the wellhead is the aim. That way, the profit is determined by the spot minus the extraction cost.
Iraq, Iran, Russia, Nigeria, Venezuela, etc. All part of the plan.
Cheers.
Sheesh, TRex! I guess you want to give extinction another chance. Reading briefly through, I have newfound respect for montag and Rayne. I’d love to say why, but there are enough people after me already…….
Most interesting coverage of this yet here. Anybody have a good handle on cheap, high-quality Geiger counters?
Ed*ard Teller @ 83
Umm, maybe, here?
Looks like I’m late to the party.
Missed the 60 Minutes tonight, but from the excerpt above, doesn’t look like anything new.
Claims from the academic writing the book that L. supposedly bragged about his blackmail plans came out not too long after the poisoning. This could easily be disinformation, meant to throw investigators off the FSB trail.
Litvinenko was former KGB. He would’ve known that boasting of his plans to blackmail the Putin government was akin to signing his own death warrant. I have a real hard time buying this one.
OT: a chilling piece about the water woes that await California, “written” in 2062.
Salon.com stirs the pot with its main feature:
punaise @ 86
Those water woes are already upon you. They just aren’t apparent because of informal deals that sprouted up in the `30s and `40s.
Here’s a nice little related factoid. The amount of water passing the measuring instruments on the weir before the Colorado River water gets diverted to California is now smaller than during the Dust Bowl years of the `30s.
Big problems ahead….
R J Hillhouse @ 86
If Litvinenko actually said to her what she claims, he was someone harboring a deathwish. One doesn’t corner dangerous people and then brag about it while they are still at large.
montag @
89
good points. from the article I linked to:
Yup. And if you’re going to be an effective blackmailer, you need to keep quiet–that’s the whole point that you can be silenced for money or favors.
Spy who billed me in da house!
But if a blackmailer can simply be shut up, wouldn’t that make it as likely that he get offed as paid? Wouldn’t he have had something by way of insurance or a deadman switch?
Off topic but for anyone interested–Jane’s previous piece discussed Lord McCain’s WaPo op/ed calling for not only more troops, but lots more troops, not for a while but for a long time.
As of a few minutes ago, the WaPo was still accepting comments (which are running highly if not entirely negative):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01810.html
HotFlash @ 93
Not if he weren’t smart enough. Any time you start blackmailing someone, you open yourself up to the authorities (in this case, the authorities of multiple countries). Many ways to be double- and triple-crossed.
My guess is that Litvinenko was a pawn in a much greater game who thought, without foundation, that he was a knight or a bishop.
Racking up them billable hours…
Not that I’ve ever blackmailed anyone, but it’s the threat of releasing something and talking about something that works. He might have wanted to use a 3rd party to “leak” that he had the real goods on the Putin government, but I’d expect a professional to do this much more subtlety through a “trusted” contact who would know how to evaluate the info, not a clueless grad student.
Dr. Hillhouse, I’ve been checking your blog on a regular basis, looking for updates on this case.
Do you have any?
This is all terra incognita to me, I don’t even read LeCarre. However, I’m pretty sure that the old cold-war stuff has not stopped, people *love* being spies and having secret wars too much.
Back when Bush 41 was pres I kept saying,, “Don’t you think it’s odd that the Pres of the US is the former head of the CIA and the pres of the Soviet Union is the former head of the KGB and they’d look at me like, huh? So, are they right? Is any of this stuff connected? Via Britain?
Hi Suzanne.
I been watching the case, but nothing really new has surfaced. The British investigators were blocked at every turn when in Moscow, just like you’d expect if the FSB/Putin government were behind it.
Tonight I was reading the latest in the Independent. They quote investigators as believing they will solve it, but the guilty will never be prosecuted.
The real question will be whether the British government will point fingers or, more likely, will be diplomatic and only implicate individuals without connecting the dots to the government.
Spies are necessary. We’d be forever at war without them and ambassadors.
My theory? It’s the RIAA, trying to frame AllOfMP3.com.
Margot @ 100
We are forever at war because of them.
I quote John Foster Dulles, a notable from our own State Dept.: “For us there are two sorts of people in the world: there are those who are Christians and support free enterprise and there are the others.”
R J Hillhouse @ 97
I read (and voted on) your Get Smart Award, but I always figured the Russians to be very smart. And ruthless, of course. Wouldn’t somone attempting to blackmail the Putin govt, have to be either really good or really dumb?
So, things do not yet add up tidily?
No, this doesn’t add up tidily at all. The old KGB was ruthless and damn good. I don’t think the same can be said for the FSB. I’ve been speculating on this with, well, let’s say, friends in dark places. Consensus is the Russians don’t make spies like they used to.
The FSB is suffering from brain drain and my best guess is that they didn’t do it in-house, but contracted out to some real bozos.
montag @
85
Great link, Montag. I used to have a modified CDV-711 with a wand, but loaned it to this guy
http://www.tcfn.org/timecapsul…..acord.html
and haven’t seen it since.
Ed*ard Teller @ 105
Should be like loaning out a chainsaw in Alaska–never let it out of your sight. :)
ET, the reason the Polonium was not detected is that it emits alpha waves, not gamma, which the standard geuger counter detects.
But then, that is based on memory, which tonight has not had a good track record.
At least the US isn’t the only country getting ripped off by private contractors.
montag @ 103
I see what you mean when I read about the Dulles brothers. Who watches the watchers?
I think of the Cold War…we were not engaged in combat with every Soviet satellite. We did have spies and we certainly needed them.
Dr. Hillhouse, that Independent article was interesting. So now they think he was poisoned twice and are looking at where he was in the days before receiving the second dose at the Pine Bar at the hotel.
Interesting, very interesting.
It’s a quiet night and there are some spookophiles out, so maybe somebody can help me get a sense of some stuff. In the spy novels, which I presume have some resemblance to the real shadow world — leCarre, I’m thinking of, haven’t read him sind Cold War ended, but I used to know a bit about the Old Bills, Donovan and Stephenson, from WWII.
And I think that at least some deaths that we see as accidents are hits supposed to look like accidents, suicides or disease. Could anyone hazard a guess as to how often this would occur? I am curious about the scope of covert wars ’surfacing’ in normal life and also about the success with which they can be covered up. Or in general, how much of that life affects or spillos over into ours.
Again, I apologize for being so clueless, I don’t even know how to begin to ask about this stuff.
Suzanne @
108
Good point. The alpha-gamma thing, not the memory. So should every homeowner’s kit include detection devices for this stuff along with CO and smoke?
BTW, the price they’re asking for CDV-711s is crazy! $275.00. I was civil defense director for my town for five years in the 70s-80s, and I saw palette loads of boxes of those things on loading docks in Anchorage, waiting to go to the dump back around ‘79.
The reputation of the Russian mafia is dark. Tentacles everywhere, quietly and ruthlessly doing whatever they will. I wonder what the Russian word for hyperbole is?
Is Moon really involved with Russian mafia?
Darn Treo.
HotFlash @ 112
I did some digging on the internet regarding various combinations of “polonium”, “assassination”, “poisoning”, and “cyrus hashemi” (who in 1986 met a fate that had symptoms remarkably similar to Litvinenko’s. What I came across was both remarkable and bizarre, but I found no mention of nefarious polonium poisonings prior to the Litvinenko case.
Some, but not enough IMHO.
It happens. There is a very real, dark world out there. International politics are often not what they seem. Invisible forces are indeed at work.
HotFlash, I was packing up stuff tonight and found my training manual from the Criminal Investigative Analysis School I attended (that was what they were calling psychological profiling back when I attended in ‘90). Put on by FBI and CalDOJ and held at SFPD’s academy. Brought back sweet memories of an entire class devoted to deviant behavior and using the victim information to try to define the types of behaviors of the offender.
Read over my typewritten notes (yeah – I used to be that methodical) and realized just how my training is American based and totally useless in this case.
I forgot to mention in #84,
newfound respect for Wigwam too.
Suzanne @ 107
Actually, sort of, in terms of detection. Alpha is easy to find because most so-called Geiger counters today will detect alpha, gamma and beta emissions.
Polonium is fairly easy to detect because its alpha emissions are at a much higher rate than its parent, uranium–138 days half-life, as opposed to 3.5 billion years. The decay process is U-238->Ra-226->Po-210->Pb-207.
Cheers.
OT musing: Just a little bit ago, I saw a TV commercial that showed an office exploding into angry anarchy because, unlike their placid neighbor elsewhere in the building, the benighted workers lacked comcast broadband, and so were enduring the frustrations of frequent service outages.
I saw this commercial in the first place because I was killing time waiting for the knowledgeable housemate to return and bludgeon our comcast broadband system back to life, if possible. I might or might not notice any subsequent conversation here or anywhere else in the Internet in a timely fashion.
Margot @ 109
Just the ones we thought we could fight wars against, like Vietnam….
Just for the record, there was one CIA spy in Hungary, and the attempted revolution there caught him completely off-guard….
EDP at 8:59PT — Whoop-de-do!8)
HotFlash @ 111
CIA manuals say the easiest way to off someone with minimal investigation is defenestration. Throw `em out the window from a high place. Almost always determined by the coroner to be suicide.
HI Wigwam,
I read a reference to ‘gave him a polonium cigarette’. I believe the writer said an Israeli friend in the business told him that was how Hashemi was poisoned. But it seems that Litvinenko was given way too much and died more spectacularly than was intended, so perhaps it would have been just caused leukemia and what with alpha instead of gammas no one would have noticed if they weren’t looking for murder. Or it may have been to send a message. Or it may have been just plain stupidity.
But what I was thinking of was more along the std accident or suicide stuff, like this:
I was reading a list of ‘convenient’ plane crashes like Paul Wellstone and suicides where the family denied that there had been any indication or stress or depression, like Paul Sanford. Rumi, I think it was, has a list of them. And just so I’d know what angle to keep my tinfoil hat at, I thought I’d ask if anyone had a clue how often these convenient deaths might be murders by govt agencies — the CIA etc are certainly responsible for hundreds or thousands of deaths outside the US, I can’t see them not killing Americans in the US if they felt it was, um, important to do so. But I don’t know the area at all. So I’m asking, it’s on topic and all.
montag @
119
My memory is zero for two tonight. Dayam 50’s!
If your talking about the deaths of the right enemies, the Agency would be flattered. Flattered only, however. The numbers are much much lower, even if you count the Soviet soldiers killed by the muj in Afghanistan.
Suzanne @ 117
“American based.” Funny you should say that, I have been trying and trying to figure out what is going on in the world. First, I think that one has to look at what is actually happening and just ignore what anyone is saying about it. And then, one has to look way beyond the US. It’s not all about George and his oil.
Montag, is there a reason that the CIAgent in Hungary missed the attempted rev? Was he focused on something else? I understand that the collapse of the USSR caught just about every US agency flat-footed. So, what are they looking at? Was it a low-level or a high-level failure?
R J Hillhouse @ 126
What about central and south Americas?
Suzanne @ 124
Well, the original Geiger-Mueller tube, attached to a particle counter, was the Geiger counter, so-called, and was specifically designed to count alpha particles, because alpha particles were highly able to ionize the argon gas inside the counter. Once ionized, the released electrons migrated to an electrode in the counter which recorded the current change on the counter dial.
Geiger counters recorded alpha emissions, which is why they were SOP equipment for uranium prospectors in the `50s movies. :)
Ooh, fascinating as this is it’s tooooo late for me. I have to pack it in or I’ll be toast in the am. My dear kitty got herself hurt fairly seriously, that’s sort of why I’m still up, washing the blood off and holding her paw. I want to get her in to the vet first thing.
Thank you all, Dr Hillhouse, montag, Suzanne, ET, lots to think about tonight. TRex is gonna be so mad, that’ll teach him to finish off the whole stegosaurus before getting back too the thread.
PS I voted for “All of the above” for the Get Smart award.
TREX!
The best CSI-FDL since Dick Cheney shot his lawyer in the face.
polonium haikus? there’s a periodic element haiku site out there.
HotFlash @ 129
Best wishes to the feline friend. Keep in mind that they heal better than we do. :)
Defenestration, huh? Like this?
LINK
Just a guess.
I’d still place numbers below six digits. I’ll ask around and see if I can get some better numbers for you.
montag, this dayam aging process is now why i quantify things from memory. I do recall an article that talked about why it was not detected coming into to London (airport detectors or such).
I am still a highly trained observer – my girls will attest to that – my skills are just rusty.
Ed*ard Teller @ 130
Too bad Litvinenko is four syllables all by itself….
hotflash – kitty kisses for the boo boo and positive thoughts for tomorrow’s vet visit.
Suzanne @ 133
Well, perhaps I have a small advantage–I’m an English major who still managed to ace first-year nuclear chemistry. :)
montag @
135
yeah, too bad. he’s already been stuck at the wrong place in line enough, eh?
montag @ 132
Yeah, but it’s three of her four feet cut up pretty bad, I think I can see bone on her hind paw (heel joint). Bugger walked home from wherever, though, and climbed up the TV tower to the second floor window, her usual means of ingress. She’ll live, for sure, but she’s telling me it hurts and I don’t have any kitty-sfe painkillers.
Thanks for the reassurance, montag. Nite all.
I have a comment in moderation, bummer. Let me try an abbreviated version.
From the Wilderness.
Ed*ard Teller @ 137
[slightly sardonic laughter] Yeah, I don’t think he expected to be where he is now.
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON? ..
there’s a 5-7-5 Japanese poem structure too, isn’t there. otherwise polonium and Litvinenko can’t be in the same haiku together.
TheOtherWA @ 139
Yeah. That one’s been bothering me for years now. If he was just gonna pitch himself out of a window, why did he take off his jacket and shoes?
montag @ 145
And why do it when his wife was waiting for him in the parking garage? It makes no sense.
Ed*ard Teller @ 142
Haiku is supposed to be directed toward nature. The other forms are directed elsewhere. But, even if Litvinenko could be worked into the 7-syllable line of the stanza, one would probably have to reduce it to: “Litvinenko got fucked, huh?”
ANd Paul Sanford on Christmas Eve day:
thepoetryman @ 142
In 2006, after Dick Ceney shot his friend on a
drinkinghunting trip, fdl was the place to be in crime analysis. hence, CSI-FDL. one night, a haiku competition started spontaneously. eventually, there was a multi-night poetry contest. I didn’t even get an honorable mention, but it was sweet…Ed*ard Teller @ 149
I think poetyryman may be referring to this.
montag @
107
Guys,speaking as a EX-nuke,there is lotsa beter places than that guy to pick up a {shithitthefan} survey meter…check a place http://www.ki4u.com… I bought some products from him and checked them out @ a “real” health Physics lab..they are certified and cheap
Good night, all. Thanks for the hospitality. You’re a great bunch! FDL is so lucky!
HotFlash @ 148
this one makes me ill
HotFlash @
150
thanks, poetryman and HotFlash. what a poetry site.
File that under Makes No Sense too.
Thanks for stopping by RJ. I hope you visit again.
snuffy @ 150
Yeah. Makes no sense, given the background.
punaise @
87
wow, pun, that’s scary.
Wasn’t there another strange suicide, or at least death, around then? I’d forgotten that one but sure did notice it at the time.
Here’s an illustration of the Salvador option, by which most of those Central/South Americans deaths mentioned upthread, in its incipient stages. The operations in question are in an eastern provincial town called Fontimiya:
I’ll bet that fellow wows them at Eid banquets. And I’ll bet the detained teen is the most informed person in the village. But what really reminds me of what I’ve read about how the contra-drug and such operations worked, besides the unleashing on villagers of elements that probably don’t need much encouragement to brutality, is the evident bribery of the local militias that U.S. personnel—regular military, CIA, whatever—are willing to engage in to keep them on the job. No doubt after the U.S. troops are “withdrawn,” the intention would be to leave contacts behind to keep these guys happy, and also to seed them with some kind of dirty business to provide them with a flow of funds, much as cocaine transit did in Central America, and probably is doing in the Andes as well. How you keep something going even after Congress (ha!) has told you to stop.
The passage is from the LA Times via Steve’s.
for those of you who want the survey gear I.E. geigercounters ect there is a much better place to get itEd*ard Teller @
106
try a outfit http://www.ki4u.com Ihave no affiliation…I didbuy some of ther gear as they certifie and calibrate the meters they sell…you are not purchaseing junk{I am a ex-nuke… ANSI3.1 SeniorHealth Physic tech}
some of my posts appear to have been eaten by the machine?is their a problem?
snuffy, are they in moderation? sometimes, the automatic spam filter will trigger on things such as more than 2 links or v*agra or pen*s.
prostraredragon @ #156,
the community included a number of fighters who fled on motorcycles through the canal network at the first sound of U.S. helicopters. The boy also said residents received regular visits from masked men on motorcycles who warned them
which roads were mined.
grizzled German veterans called Stalingrad “Verdun on the Volga.”
US soldiers are reported calling Baghdad “Stalingrad on the Tigris.”
I don’t see a Stalingrad parallel, but the quote above….
prostratedragon @
157
Here’s a list of some that Rumi(?) linked to the other day
Suzanne @ 161
Thankyou..was unaware of the “wards”
ET, perhaps referring to the people of Stalingrad, who did not give up, in spite of all the German Army threw at them, including the seige.
HotFlash @ 126
Well, I refer to 1956, thirty-five years before the fall of the Soviet Union. Mostly, I think, I refer to the indifference of the CIA to actual security concerns or matters of spreading democracy, and more to Cold War-game playing.
HotFlash @
161
Thanks for the list (sigh).
Ed*ard Teller @
160
yeah, maybe they’re referring to the seemingly off-hand ways communication can be done in an urbanized environment. Also, wasn’t there some use made of “guys on motorcycles” in the innovative counterattack of Millenium Challenge? Don’t remember, but seems to me that kind of quick, cheap hand-to-hand was made to work around high-tech attacks from the toy U.S. forces.
When a government has one of its critics assassinated, the purpose is not simply to get rid of the current victim, but also to send a message to others. It wants these like minded to be in no doubt that the government was behind the hit, yet it also wants sufficient ambiguity among the majority of citizens so that can choose to hide from the uncomfortable truth and believe that the authorities are not as evil as to do this. Keeping the balance between certainty in the minds of critics and uncertainty in the population at large can sometimes be difficult. Look at the case of the Marcos regime’s 1983 assassination of Benigno Aquino. This was one murder too many and the majority of the Philippine population saw it the same way as did Marcoses’ opponents. Insufficient ambiguity and the Marcos regime fell.
The best guide to whether Putin was behind the murders of Politskya and Litvinenko are the opinions of Putin’s other critics. The fact that Litvinenko himself blames Putin I think is strong evidence. Also the deliberate slowness of the Kremlin to criticize the murder of Politskya is indicates its involvement in that murder.
My guess would be that the probability that the Kremlin killed Litvenenko is about 80%.
The use of Polonium 210 can be interpreted as a message in two opposing ways. Assuming the planners of the murder thought that the cause would be identified eventually as radiation poisoning from Polonium 210 a short lived isotope that could only be obtained from a state owned nuclear complex, then it could be meant as a message (either true or false) that it was us the Russian state behind it. On the other hand, it may be that the perpetrators expected radioactive poisoning to be thought so unlikely that no one would test for it. If no tests for radiation had been made, the death would still have been an obvious hit, but with more ambiguity protecting the Kremlin.
Just how likely was it that the investigators would zero in on the Polonium as cause.
HotFlash @
124
Is this list of any interest?
wigwam, that list convinces me to never ever get into a small plane with a political or investigative type.
Good morning, pups. We have Bob Herbert and Paul Krugman in the NYT today, Herbert on income inequity and Krugman on the
surgeescalation, and he even points out the Wingnut Welfare program.http://mgpaquin.blogspot.com/
It’s raining AGAIN…
I must have been put into mod because I used a bad phrase about famous sons of famous fathers. I probably shouldn’t have said what type of welfare program it was. In case it takes a long time to get sprung, here are the NYT guys, Herbert & Krugman:
http://mgpaquin.blogspot.com/
Mornin’.
HotFlash @
161
Is that when the murder/suicide of William Lash and his autistic son were mentioned by me? That one is a true tragedy but it has too many curious coincidences to ignore. I think there may have also been a hearing into reconstruction money matters just a week or so before the incident. In looking back over that time, I just found that my comments at TalkLeft are now under the name of TalkLeft Visitor instead of rumi. I hope I didn’t piss off Jeralyn and the TalkLeft folks. They’re some of my favorites and I only stopped posting there when I got inadvertently locked out by an upgrade.
The long list of curious deaths goes back over decades with eerily striking patterns of accidents and political events. I’m sure some are just ‘normal’ tragedies but I see no reason to doubt the possibilities of political assassinations or targeted hits. The accepted intertwining of global criminal networks to run political systems has made many crimes more ‘tolerable’, I guess.
Whow. Bushs numbers suddenly turn really shitty. 17000 dead in half a year
From the Chicago Sun-Times:
“Sen. Joseph Lieberman is making clear that, after losing the Democratic primary in Connecticut and being elected as an independent, he wants henceforth to be listed as an ‘’Independent Democrat.’’
OT, but what the f**k is an Independent Democrat?
Please, FDL’ers, don’t hold back here . . .
… or conveniently mugged? This is another that bothered me.
g’morning all, sorry for the tragic early content if it’s upsetting.
mandrake @ 175
An Independent Democrat is the last kid picked when choosing sides for Dodgeball.
late to the party down stairs and off topic here but I would really like to get more responses over at the wapo on mccain’s oped
I think they only have three pages of response here
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..ts/display
liarman’s 37 pages of negative response dwarfs mccain’s and I think we can do better
here’s my post
He knows with no doubt the assets do not exist for the surge he’s suggesting is needed for success, he also knows he doesn’t want to through the president under the bus and thell him the strategy is going to be the failure all of his military advisor’s tell him it’s going to be
here are the questions you yourself need to ask before you can support this “surge”, which to my understanding according to your plan is no longer a surge it’s an escalation…never the less, here are the questions you need to ask and have answers for;
1)where are these assets coming from
2)if some are from redeployment, are they still efficient assets and will forcing yet another tour will that undermine our ability to recruit further for this engagement
3) if the assets are coming from other venue, will that undermine those respective theaters of engagement
4) how will we replenish the man power and assets invested in this surge
5) how long will it take to replenish the assets from the theater they came
6) will the overall affect have a negative or positive affect on our armed forces
7) will the overall affect secure Iraq
now, there are some other questions, these are the obvious off the top of my head, I am certain you have other questions that need answering as well
Senator McCain, you once had my vote, you once seemed like a man of principle who would speak against your party if that meant it was for the good of your country.
Then I saw you acquiesce to the administration concerning torture, I couldn’t believe it.
and you acquiesce to the most extreme factions of your party, the theologists.
Look senator McCain, there are no assets to send, you know that as a fact, the military has informed you they would allow for about 9,000 and even that small figure would exacerbate the theaters of engagement they are already deployed
so, where do YOU expect this force of 20,000 SUSTAINED soldiers to come from?
the answer is you don’t, you know it can’t happen and you want to able to say you supported the president even though you know as a fact the plan will fail.
That’s the first thing.
We needed a half million assets in the campaign before it started and before it got out of hand, now that it’s out of hand we’d need an exponential degree more then half million
Senator McCain, you know the correct ration is 20 soldiers to every insurgent, you also know that the very presence creates insurgency, and you also know Iraq had nothing to do with the fight against terrorism, you also know Iraq has created more terrorism
Time senator McCain for you to take the reigns of your integrity again, if you expect to regain the respect you once enjoyed from patriots like myself, you must beging your denouncement of the president and his strategy.
Hey, Mandrake -
Check to see if you rec’d mail time-stamped my end Sat 12:30.
Guy on C-Span1 right now talking about Bill Richardson’s potential as presidential material.
Oh, this is just too delicious… Anu Garg at http://www.wordsmith.org has a word of the day. Today it’s malkin. Snort!
http://wordsmith.org/words/today.html
Marion – “Today it’s malkin. Snort!”
Thanks so much for the spew alert :-)
Mornin’ all!
Marion in Savannah @ 179
Not just delicious. It’s apropos. :)
The Weather Outside Is Frightful
Balmy Breezes Blow Ill Winds Through Ski Resorts, Suffering Their Worst Season in 25 Years
At Liberty Mountain Resort in Carroll Valley, Pa., a popular destination for Washington skiers and snowboarders, the slopes have been closed since Dec. 15.
Waccamaw @ 182
I try to be a responsible citizen… I just HATE having coffee squirt out my nose!
I come late to this discussion (early?? a.m.), but having experienced the last six years under the Bush thugs administration, nothing that we read in the news is to be believed straight up.
With Negroponte in this administration, I believe America has black ops going all over the world. They are spending money to discredit Chavez (a thug, but he hates Bush so there is some commonality between a grandma and a South America leader), and are we sure who was doing the killing in Lebanon?
I have laid in a year’s supply of aluminum foil. Buy stock.
Oh, and good morning everyone. And as of this morning’s weigh in, I am 3 lbs away from losing 100 lbs. I have no clothes left that fit. :)
GrandmaJ @ 188
After Littlepropr was born I had 80 lbs to lose. It took a really long time (years) but boy o boy was the clothes shopping fun at the end!
Way to go grandma.
Mornin’ Firedogs -
has this been discussed previously ?
Put The Blame on Plame, boys
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._0107.html
my initial thought was something like this could prejudice a jury -
Wigwam @ 169
Did you see on that list that Salem Bin Laden (Osama’s big brother) was an investor in SHrub’s personal welfare project Abuto Oil Company? How has the MSM missed that little factoid? Maybe it explains why the US is “unable” to find a 6′6″ dailysis patient.
cbl @ 190
No this is a pattern that is going on by the Admoin to silence whistleblowers. I know former DOJ people who have had books held up for more than a year for “security review” (a proccess that used to take a coupple weeks for an article and a couple months for a book). They are being toldthey cannot write or speak even if they stay entirely withing the parrameters of previuosly cleared publicaions.
Did you miss the whole flap with the ex-CIA agent with the NYTimes article a couple/few weeks ago?
It’s not just CIA. It’s anyone who signed an “Executive Agreement”
More abise of the classifiaction process. Mary is SOOOOO right
GrandmaJ @ 188
That’s a true feat of will! Wish I had that kind of mind-power over mouth ;-) To give you a warning tho’……my cousin has lost considerable lbs in the last year & is now having problems finding clothing at the quality/style/price she needs. Do you have access to a large resale store? Sometimes very good items available that at least meet the quality/price criteria, especially if you expect any additional size reductions.
GrandmaJ – wow ! a great big good on ya, gal !
thanks lhp, re: exec agreements – yes, I missed quite a lot for about 6 weeks after the election (personal business & singular focus on eye-rack)
have been missing Mary, what is she using for a handle these days ?
reusing clothes-I love salvation army-at 51 I still shop there if I need to shop. Was in mall last week returning a gift and was outraged at the prices of “new clothes”. Also peeved because the store wouldn’t refund the 82 cents left on the gift card after I purchased towels (which I use until they shred….)Since I will never go into that store again willingly (over 82 cents!!) I gave the card with its balance to another shopper in the store.
agree, agree, agree on Salvation Army, Goodwill, etc. and recommend checking out any Junior League/American Cancer Society type shops that may be in your area -
I still believe it was the Kremlin. Shooting him is too easy. They wanted him to suffer an excruciating and public death to serve as an example to anyone who dares defy Mother Russia.
They just didn’t think the polonium would be discovered.
grandma – congratulations!
PC – Anything to the claims of possible blackmail attempts?
HotFlash @
99
Great point. I wonder how many people DON’T know that.
It’s “spooky”.
Kinda makes ya wonder if those guys used their spy-biz knowledge to get elected/appointed/into-office. Seems likely, eh?
Well, so much for Democracy. It was nice while it lasted, I suppose. Dead Democracy walking?
Can it be saved?
montag @
123
I wonder if that’s what happened to the USC kicker in California? Is someone that into fixing football game outcomes?
BTW, in Italian a small quibble is probably
quibblini