
The US military death toll in Iraq has topped 3,000 (H/T to Barbara O'Brien posting at C&L for this link to Time), and this morning I am asking myself how long the Bush Administration and the McCain/Lieberman doctrinal supporters of escalation will be allowed to continue their folly without being asked how they do so in the absence of public support. Are they elected to serve the wants of the American public as a whole, or only to foist the tyrranny of the minority of fervent, self-deluded neocons on the rest of the nation? From the Time article:
Others, not least the White House and the Pentagon, say, all too blithely, that numbers like these are arbitrary and unimportant. But that only highlights the non-numerical false milestones and would-be watersheds they have set up in the past. It is not just statistics that can lie. When Saddam was captured, it was going to break the back of the insurgency. Same when a democratic government was elected, a constitution drafted, a coalition government formed. The latest false milestone is the death of Saddam, another momentous event in the history of Iraq that is unlikely to change a single thing for American forces or those who are fighting them.
In Plato's Apology, Socrates declares that "the unexamined life is not worth living," refusing to accept a penalty of silence and/or the cessation of public discussion and search for the truth as the price for remaining alive. One of the more troubling aspects of the Bush Presidency for me (aside from the disregard for the rule of law and the attempted perversion and warping of the Constitution for their own unilateral Presidential purposes) has been that feeling that the only things which are examined are those which uphold or sustain the truth that they want to have us all believe — and not the actual truth of the matters at hand. This morning, Arthur Schlesinger has an insightful op-ed in the NYTimes on this very point:
We are the world’s dominant military power, and I believe a consciousness of history is a moral necessity for a nation possessed of overweening power. History verifies John F. Kennedy’s proposition, stated in the first year of his thousand days: “We must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent or omniscient — that we are only 6 percent of the world’s population; that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94 percent of mankind; that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity; and therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.”History is the best antidote to delusions of omnipotence and omniscience. Self-knowledge is the indispensable prelude to self-control, for the nation as well as for the individual, and history should forever remind us of the limits of our passing perspectives. It should strengthen us to resist the pressure to convert momentary impulses into moral absolutes. It should lead us to acknowledge our profound and chastening frailty as human beings — to a recognition of the fact, so often and so sadly displayed, that the future outwits all our certitudes and that the possibilities of the future are more various than the human intellect is designed to conceive.
Sometimes, when I am particularly depressed, I ascribe our behavior to stupidity — the stupidity of our leadership, the stupidity of our culture. Three decades ago, we suffered defeat in an unwinnable war against tribalism, the most fanatic of political emotions, fighting against a country about which we knew nothing and in which we had no vital interests. Vietnam was hopeless enough, but to repeat the same arrogant folly 30 years later in Iraq is unforgivable. The Swedish statesman Axel Oxenstierna famously said, “Behold, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed.”
That this Administration and, indeed, so many in America, cannot seem to look themselves and the consequences of their choices and actions squarely in the face — no matter the number of deaths, the number of injuries, the number of allies who back away in horror at the mess that we are making of the world around us — that this is how the Bush Administration conducts itself because they are too cowardly, too full of pride to admit a mistake to themselves, let alone the rest of us, is folly. Of the most dangerous sort, because in refusing to see the entire truth, the only things that are considered are the ones which back up the continued delusions and failures of the past.
Our nation is being led by a cabal of immature boys and sycophants and war-loving neocons. And at the top of that dismal heap is George Bush, a man for whom diplomacy means riding his bike on different continents, talking with his mouth full, and on at least one occasion caught by public cameras, groping the leader of another nation. Aren't we proud.
That this President has not been called to account by the rubber stamp Republicans in Congress was documented continuously here and all over the left blogs. As was the constant propping up and enabling of these piss poor policies by the right wing noise machine, including Rush Limbaugh's asinine statement that our actions in the Middle East were "a gift to the world." Do you have a receipt for that? Because I have a feeling that a number of the folks around the world would prefer an exchange for something much better.
The compounded failures of the Bush Administration, and their resulting pile-up of petulant refusals to ever admit to anything approximating the tiniest of missteps is an embarassment. Josh gets this absolutely right:
The Iraq War has been many things, but for its prime promoters and cheerleaders and now-dwindling body of defenders, the war and all its ideological and literary trappings have always been an exercise in moral-historical dress-up for a crew of folks whose times aren't grand enough to live up to their own self-regard and whose imaginations are great enough to make up the difference. This is just more play-acting.
This is the mindset that is leading our nation. Now that it is January, we must hold the Democratically-controlled Congress to its word that there will be some measure of oversight, some accountability, some stabilizing of this tilted mess of a ship of state. We can no longer afford to wait and hope for the best. The best is not coming from George Bush — it is high time we all accepted that fact and went to work on what needs to be done to correct all of the errors that have been committed in our names the last six years — because a correction from the Bush Administration alone will not be forthcoming. Ever.
And if there are Democrats out there who do not understand the urgent necessity of this, I say this to you: if you wait for the Republicans in Congress to provide you cover with their internal dithering about the wisdom of escalation, they will play you just like they did with the FISA provisions and the end-run of habeas. Wake up, stand up for your principles, or get the hell out of our way — because we cannot, will not, back down.
Look at the names inscribed on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial above, and understand why we cannot back down and will not do so. There is no policy objective to be obtained, no clear cut strategy for anything other than "stay the course" by keeping our soldiers in the middle of a civil war in Iraq of our making because we have a President and Administration who refuse to admit — to themselves or anyone else — that their ideas were false and their results are nonexistent. No soldier whould be asked to die as a salve to a President's ego. Not one.
No more. These are not just numbers or names inscribed on a wall somewhere. They are human lives, flesh and blood, heart and soul — and their families, their friends, their brothers and sisters in arms deserve far better than a President who prefers stall tactics to being honest with himself. No escalation. No more.
The opportunity cost of George Bush's ego is far too high — and it is other people's children who are paying for it.
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Fitz!! Danke christy
Now that the Dems have a majority in both houses of Congress, it’s up to them and the American people to help stop this madness in Iraq. We’ll (obviously) see what happens
You might imagine that after only 4 months here, having a zed (did i really get a zed?) on the first of January might make me begin having auspicious thoughts for 2007.
Now to go read the post, of course.
It’s sad to watch the crumbling of an empire.
Hope we can minimize the damage on the way down.
I’m impressed that you’re up to doing a serious, worthwhile post first thing on New Year’s Day. I was going to invest my energy into trying to get one of my Sims to turn into a vampire.
Thanks for staying on top of this. I keep thinking I need to do a bumper sticker succinctly addressing the exchange rate of 3000 troops for one dead dictator, but I haven’t found just the right words.
“Fight stupidity” is one of the actual, written goals of our charity.
If these criminals follow through with escalating this war, I hope, at last, there will be some serious anti-war demonstrations. People need to take to the streets in the millions. We cannot sit quietly by while a small group of deranged imperialists ignores the message of the 06 election and takes this country further into the sewer. This is not a monarchy!
Me don’t put much truck in the Dems standing up to the abuse of the founding Constitution strongly enough, nor reversing the trend of decline and fall of the empire. But on the 1st of the year, one can hope, and remember that John Conyers and Henry Waxman already have a track record upon which hope could be built.
But it’s not all so bleak. I call your attention to the fact that it was Amurka’s might and foresight which allowed us to free several hundred medical students and defeat the threat of Grenada.
Is jusice only what the strong decide?
Christy,
Great to get the New Year off on the right track. I’ve been out of touch since saturday morning. Bee staying with my Mom who does not have any TOOBZ access.
Come into the office today to tidy it up so as to start the New Year off all organized.
I think I’m th only one in my office building, there are no other cars in the parking lot!
Good to have you guys to keep company with
3,000. Wasn’t that the estimate of how many we lost on 9-11? So now Bush has killed more Americans than Osama?
After recommending the web site that showed Todays Front Pages on the last thread, I went over and took a peek at some of them. the Phliiy Inquirer and the San Antonio Express News were particularly chilling in keeping with the picture above. They show pictures of the print version of the front pages, not the web sites.
Last night at my house we lit a Yahrtzeit candle to mark the passing of not just the 3,000th but of all the men and women who have died in this madness. The candle sputtered and almost went out many times. I’ve never had this happen before with a Yahrtzeit candle. It was rather spooky. It will probably burn on for another day even though it should only last 24 hours.
So sad.
Lieberman received 37 pages of seriously negative responses to his WaPo op-ed -
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..6122801055
Too bad he probably won’t read them.
must read this;
skull and bones
this is incredible when you see the following was written in 1991;
this is as damning as the PNAC’s charter
one week till oversite begins…my heart pounds so hard I don’t know if it’ll fail before we get there
It’s a relatively simple matter. Bush is an everyday, common, garden variety megalomaniac war criminal.
Great post. As a Canadian watching world affairs, I found this to be very interesting. I had not been aware of the JFK quote – “We must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent or omniscient — that we are only 6 percent of the world’s population; that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94 percent of mankind; that we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity; and therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.”
Thanks!
Just found a link to this on the NYT.
More tears.
Gosh, did the mods just throw out a set of piss-stained pajamas? Thanks, mods! Happy New Year, and thanks for all you do.
christy, thanks for this strong, eloquent indictment, and a reminder of the very long, hard work that has to start today.
we have come from a state of very few tools save our outrage and the ability to share it, to returning a measure of balance to the levers of power.
really, this is where the heavy lifting begins. because the one thing we know for sure is that, even as the clock runs out on the bush administration, even as the pendulum swings farther against this perversion of foreign policy into pathology, even as we try to rout the forces of stupidity, and corruption, and prideful, arrogant authoritarians, they will NEVER go away.
even as we wrest the nation back from these bloody jackasses, we must keep them from regaining leadership roles. and we must get our troops out of an impossible mission these demented souls keep them in, for nothing more than their own self-regard.
The timing of this number like everything else is so suspect, imo. The very suggestion it’s just a number infuriates me and should ignite a flame in any citizen or journalist. Not to mention the blatent lies and manipulation of numbers.
One important point I was reminded of during Ford reviews last week is that congress stopped funding of the Vietnam War. Presidents don’t end failed wars, congress does.
Stop this war now congress and as TSF suggests we can’t wait for so many reasons, Democrats must not accept ownership of this disaster.
We have to get our Teamwork On: to push the Democratic Congress to do the bidding of the voters, to support the soldiers who have lost faith, for our children’s children, for the planet and all the creatures and skies and lands and waters–our job will be difficult, we must work together for the change that must come.
With all of us working together. Now.
RevDeb @ 18
revdeb, yes this was an extraordinary account, well told and in its telling, a glimpse into the war crimes of this administration. to so smugly discard a life such as his, all for nothing.
god bless dana, and charles, and their family.
I’ve been reading Glenn Greenwald’s book “What Would a Patriot Do?” — one of several very nice Christmas gifts I received — and to see it all put between two covers is truly appalling. This is not the United States I grew up in. A Republic, if we can keep it … we haven’t done so well these past few years, and I don’t believe very many citizens understand just how badly we’ve gone astray.
Oh, and…GO MOUNTAINEERS!
From the WaPo.
Notice that Liarman’s party affiliation is not given, perhaps some one there is reading blogs?
Re turning points/milestones, my most recently updated list:
1. May 1, 2003 End of major combat operations announced on board the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln: Mission accomplished
2. July 22, 2003 Saddam Hussein’s sons Uday and Qusai killed
3. December 13, 2003 Saddam Hussein captured
4. March 8, 2004 Interim Constitution
5. June 28, 2004 Interim government formed/Sovereignty returned
6. November 2004 Second siege of Fallujah
7. January 30, 2005 First elections for transitional assembly
8. May 3, 2005 Transitional government formed
9. October 15, 2005 Vote on constitution
Alternate: October 19, 2005 Saddam Hussein’s trial begins
10. December 15, 2005 Elections for permanent assembly
11. April 22, 2006 Jawad al Maliki replaces interim PM Ibrahim Jaafari in forming a permanent government
12. May 20, 2006 al Maliki presents permanent government: Defense, Interior, and National Security Ministries left unfilled
13. June 7, 2006 Jihadist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi killed; June 8, 2006 last ministries filled in permanent government (175 days after the elections)
14. December 30, 2006 Saddam Hussein executed by hanging
I have a list nearly as long as this one on the reasons why we invaded Iraq. When you look at these lists or Bush’s endless tax cuts, attacks on the Constitution, and saber rattling, you realize these guys are never, never going to change. They will only continue to make more and bigger mistakes. And so I agree completely with the following sentiment.
Christy… Ya hit another one right out of the park!
The Vietnam memorial holds the name of my first beau who died within three months of being in country. There are so many names of my high school class mates and fellow nurses who served. The other sad fact is knowing the life long effects of that war on the military and their families.
My ex was in the USAF for 12 yrs in the 70-80’s. Many of the guys who served were Vietnam Vets. One of my neighbors had been soaked in Agent Orange, he had health problems, one child was profoundly retarded and the other three had various health issues. One guy could not keep an alarm clock, kept throwing them against the wall.
Another generation, another war, ignore the effects to repeated deployments on the troop and their families.
Beautifully crafted and inspirational. I appreciate the integrity from which Firedoglake springs. thank you.
katymine at 27 — The Schlesinger op-ed is great read. Sobering, but necessarily so. And the piece that RevDeb linked above at 17 – I couldn’t even get past the first three paragraphs this morning. So many lives lost…
Christy,
You have hit the nail on the head..I was just having this exact conversation with my husband. We (the collective American we) are the spoiled brats of the world, who have been raised to believe we are always right and deserve whatever we desire. The phrase “ugly American” had a genesis somewhere; it didn’t evolve out of the blue.
On another note: Maybe, just maybe, GW really does finally realize just what trouble he may be in. Read here. Is someone afraid he may have to bolt the good ole USA?
How does one comment on a wapo article? Sorry I don’t see where I need to click and thanks for any help.
The thing that depresses me the most is that MOST of the Democrats who have somehow made it to Washington have essentially the same mindset as the folks who got us into this catastrof**k (thanks Daily Show) in Iraq.
This is NOT about Dems developing a “spine” or liberal “journalists” writing the truth. The issue for the rest of us is to recognize that the “spineless” Democrats are the way they are because they AGREE that running around the world killing folks we don’t like is a good thing–they are just disappointed that Bush and company did such a poor job of it.
Count on the AP to go to bat for the warmongers.
Like the cost of the national soul, perhaps…
Getting warmer, but still paraphrasing Bush. How about: it’s an illegal, immoral, strategically and tactically pointless war, and would be even if it were prosecuted with the slightest hint of competence? How about that, Jeff Donn, AP
sycophantwriter?I and others have wondered if the DoD count included “out of theater” deaths, ie. those deaths in hospitals in Germany or US. icausualties.org tracks the numbers and out of theater deaths are included.
http://www.icasualties.org/oif/
Will the veterans of this war get a memorial on the Mall?
Perhaps it would be better to place one next to the Bush library.
Sue @ 13
Yeah, but y’know, the public just doesn’t understand why these sacrifices are sooooo important. They need the likes of Holy Joe to hold their hands and gently lead them down the righteous path.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 29
Christy….I grew up raised by parents who served in WWII. My father was a Marine and fought in the battle of Tarawa, one really bloody battle. He was one of 11 who survived in his unit wounded and returned stateside via the Queen Mary which served as a hospital ship.
I know the lifelong effects of war because I lived them. My Dad is a really good man, used the GI Bill and became a Wildlife Biologists. But I saw how the injuries stopped him from doing things he wanted to do, but you should see him today, he is so excited because they start their next housing project for his Habitat for Humanity chapter tomorrow.
We have become an incredibly stupid people, I said to my spouse, after reading JFK’s speech.
Read any of JFK’s, RFK’s, MLK’s, FDR’s speeches and the truth will hit you like a ton of bricks, that the American public have dumbed themselves down over the last 5 decades — and they do so at an even faster rate when they elect Republicans.
When was the last time you heard any Republican president’s inaugural speech quoted at length?
I can’t remember it happening. I can remember little snippets taken from Republican president’s interactions, like Reagan’s “Trust but verify,” Ford’s “national nightmare is over,” or GHW Bush’s “Read my lips” and “thousand points of light”. But the general content of their speeches has been grossly insufficient, poorly communicating to their constituencies, to the rest of the world, and to the future.
It is this stupidity that dumbs down their comprehension to numbers; while there are volumes to be said about every single digit, the public and their corresponding moronic leaders quibble about the relative value of the figure. “It’s only a number,” we’re reminded. The public takes this at face value, reminded too, that they’ve had one execution as an offset. No quibble about the merit of expending 3000 American troops’ lives, tens of thousands of American troops injured, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis’ lives for this one execution. It is no wonder that videos have been leaked of the execution; if the now-stupid public plays them over and over again, maybe they can weakly rationalize away the numbers.
Steve @ 34
one thing i know it doesn’t include: the number of military or civilian deaths and casualties in afghanistan.
BUSH’S FOLLY
The bones of one hundred and fifty score
Lay supine to eternity.
The bones of their families ache, then sleep, then ache again.
The bones of those who pushed them
Into the intersection of time and violence
Rot from within.
Corruption self-limits: what has no foundation, is bound to fall.
My bones sigh with the weight:
An eight year old daughter will inherit what?
And as the darkness creeps into my life
I cling to this floating straw:
Hope flew out last.
Hope still hovers over all.
Hope still hovers over all.
Peace
Eureka Springs, AR @ 31
There are several ways to comment; the ombudsman brings little result:
1. Click on the reporter’s name at the top of the article if it’s clickable. Some are not, such as op-ed pieces or wire stories without WaPo employee involvement.
2. Scroll down to the bottom of the page; there’s usually a comment box and a clickable “view comments” link.
3. Email Deborah Howell at ombudsman@washpost.com.
4. Skip step 3 and email Executive Editor Len Downie at executive.editor@washingtonpost.com or at this page.
dmg @ 39..correct…Iraq theater only.
Sue @
13
Sue, I have reveled in reading those responses. And you’re right. He probably won’t, but “the little people” will.
dmg @ 39
Iraqi guerrillas killed 6 more GIs and AP put the total dead in combat at 2998. The dreadful milestone of 3000 is upon us.
Like all statistics, this one is deceptive. It does not include US troops killed in Afghanistan, that oddly forgotten war where the US still has a division engaging in active combat. Nor is it nice to ignore NATO dead in Afghanistan, including French and Canadians (yes).
The number does not include the Coalition troops killed in Iraq. The sacrifices of the British, Italians, and others should be included.
http://www.juancole.com/
Who would have known that Saddam Hussein would show more composure at his execution than George H.W. “Poppy” Bush would show when talking about how Jeb lost an election.
Who would have known.
-GSD
My mother hadn’t been following the news in the past few days. She said she had seen a snippet on the news and thought that the insurgents had released a new video where they were parading around a hostage.
Turns out it was “our” allies in Iraq looking so Zarqawi like in their executorial zeal to wipe Saddam off the map.
-GSD
Snowbird @ 42..icasualties.org has all the stats for Iraq. Afghanistan, coalition, private US, etc.
A few people are doing a hell of a lot of work to keep the govt honest.
Reading through the numbers makes me ill; my only hope is that their sacrifice will destroy the Republicans as a national party.
RevDeb @
17
Thanks RevDeb. I just read the article. Very moving and very sad.
And thanks, Christy, for this post. JFK was the very first presidential candidate I ever voted for. I’m still proud of that choice.
Steve at 34
So it seems we have discovered the one aspect of the horrible situation in Iraq that the administration is telling the truth about?
The number of military personel who have lost their lives in this catastrophe.. how kind of them to tell the truth on this one critical aspect of the ongoing fiasco…
because if the numbers were actually much, much worse, they surely wouldn’t want to cover that up, would they?
perhaps the Lancet methodology should be applied in the U.S.A, to see if there is a rough statistical correspondence to the 3000 number.
If the death toll is actually a multiple of that number, that should come through as well.
Riverbend:
Me staring at my laptop with FDL on the screen. Boot Liquor radio on the Toobz from SomaFM, the center of hardcore country music from that bastion of cowboys and cowtippers and House speakers, San Francisco. The song, a country weeper?
“I’m in love with the girl who ran off with my wife.”
Guess there’s still hope for amurka to recapture some San francisco values.
GSD @ 46
Last semester, when I was teaching a class on human and animal sacrifice, I screened “Dead Man Walking” and asked the students to write an essay arguing for or against capital punishment as a form of human sacrifice. (Not whether they were “for” or “against” the death penalty, just whether it fit the parameters for human sacrifice presented in the theoretical readings for the course.) I was pleasantly surprised to see about a 50/50 split in the positions taken. I still haven’t committed myself, but I will say that at a minimum, capital punishment enters a gray area, and scapegoating behavior such as your mother comments on is a big reason why.
a bit of lou reed, a far hipper soundtrack than the nihilists in the white house deserve, but on point nonetheless:
“And there’s even some evil mothers
Well they’re gonna tell you that everything is just dirt
That women never really faint
And that villains always blink their eyes,
That children are the only ones who blush
And that life is just to die!”
And my heart goes out to Riverbend, and every single human trying to live through poison assault on humanity in Iraq.
Re Socrates and Plato’s possibly revisionist history, read I.F. Stone’s The Death of Socrates. Stone delves through historic documentes and reaches the conclusion that Socrates was a fascist with sympathies tied to Sparta and was undermining the Athenian democracy. Aristotle that was the Democrat!
Crazy Horse @ 54
i’m glad she’s posting again — hadn’t it been something like two months? i was assuming the worst.
Woodward unveils another “scoop”.
Interview with Saddam
RevDeb @
17
Damn, Rev. i very ever cry, but this did it. What a beautiful man and his son will never know him.
Thanks TSF, One win we cannot be denied is that Lieberman is not a Democrat or an Independent Democrat!
CT For Lieberman (Party of One)
CT For Lieberman (Party of One)
CT For Lieberman (Party of One)
CT For Lieberman (Party of One)
jeffreyw @ 57
Snicker.
Sue @
13
Wow Sue, that is impressive. Thanks for the link.
And happy new year, everyone. From our poodle-whipped house on the Oregon coast.
What say we do this blog thing for another year?
Jane Hamsher @ 61
What say we do this blog thing for another year?
Can I get an “Amen?”
Jane Hamsher @ 62
I can’t imagine going without it!
Yes Please.
Jane Hamsher @
61
Lovely thought! Let”s.
please, jane, may i have another?
Anybody on here seen the new move “Children of Men” yet?
VERY limited release so far but I read the book many years ago and remember it well. Chilling.
Riverbend:
“America the savior… After nearly four years and Bush’s biggest achievement in Iraq has been a lynching. Bravo Americans.”
My anger doesn’t break through the tears.
EvilDrPuma @ 63
What say we do this blog thing for another year?
Can I get an “Amen?”
Amen and pass the black-eyed peas..)
EvilDrPuma 33,
3,000 is an arbitrary number. My response to the AP writer is “So what?” It is a number that we have all accepted as significant in this conflict. I would turn the argument around and ask why if 3,000 deaths is not sufficiently significant for this writer why that writer had not written such an article any time in the last nearly 4 years. What is dishonest about such articles is that they accept that something is significant (because they are writing about it) and then try to minimize or negate that significance (which again they could have done at any point before if their view really had been it was without significance).
Soldiers dying is arbitrary and unimportant to BushCo.
Bush cares about the Troops only as far as their use as photoprops and for stirring up Patriotic Pride.
Beyond that, he could give a fuck. Republicans and Bush say “support the troops” out of one side of their mouth and cut VA benefits out of the other side of their mouth.
Kathryn in MA — did you mean The Trial of Socrates? It’s on my rather lengthy wish list, buried, I’m afraid. I’ll have to move it up the list.
Socrates could have been a fascist, but his sentencing without appeal to immediate death for dissent through speech still instructs us.
He was snarky to the end, yes, but is snark an offense to the well-being of a just people?
If Bush were only snarky, and not otherwise actively malignant…
perris @
14
maybe that’s why kerry’s campaign was so screwed up …….
Seen during this morning’s Rose Parade, as the camera focused on ‘Vader’, a banner reading ‘IMPEACH’.
EvilDrPuma @
62
What say we do this blog thing for another year?
Can I get an “Amen?”
More, please!
Rayne, Yes! The Trial of Socrates I lent it out and never got it back – ditto Gore’s Earth in the Balance
Jane…it’s a deal.
Christy – right on!
and leftdog – I was startled by the JFK lines as well. The very dangerous fantasy of american exceptionalism is perhaps our most important crime … and we will not have a place among the family of civilized nations until we give it up. This is the reason I have minimal hope in the democratic majority to actually stop this madness – so long as we are led by people who forget our place within a global humanity – or as my arab friends say – amongst our brothers and sisters in humanity – we will continue with these disasters.
Food for thought:
“A society that presumes a norm of violence and celebrates aggression, whether in the subway, on the football field, or in the conduct of its business, cannot help making celebrities of the people who would destroy it.”
– Lewis H. Lapham, editor and writer (1935- )
Rayne, It wasn/t snark so much as teaching the youth precepts that undermined democratic process. IIRC, Athens lost their democracy already to Sparta, and was on the verge of losing their democracy again. As we all know, getting back our democratic government will be a tough fight. He was executed as a traitor, and Plato, his favorite student, wrote glorious revisionism.
Rayne @
38
What is the name of the last United States President who wrote his own speeches?
Jane, would it affect the future of this blog’s financial stability if there were dirty friggin hippy pj’s with the FDL breastpatch available for purchase? (what do you call those pj’s with the button-down bottoms?)
I mean, then we wouldn’t have to post nekkid, which might increase readership, or not. (Though i get a sense some post from their offices, which might mean FDL cravattes also, as well as FDL Condi whips for the more adventurous.)
silvester greetings to the clan at the Oregon coast.
Good Morning Fire Dogs,
Just ran across this link -
Faces of the Dead in Iraq – NY Times
My resolution for 2007 is to fight like hell to end this war.
Jane Hamsher @
61
Too right!
More numbers.
September 7, 2004 American combat deaths in Iraq reach 1,000 (537 days from the beginning of the invasion on March 20,2003)
October 25, 2005 American combat deaths in Iraq reach 2,000 (413 days)
December 31, 2006 American combat deaths in Iraq reach 3,000 (432 days)
As these numbers indicate, the rate of deaths as been little changed in the last 2 years although the situation on the ground has considerably worsened during that time. If going nowhere or downhill is the criterion, the quagmire began (at the latest) back in September of 2004.
Lindy @
43
i think we should also take note that there were some responses to holy joe which were clearly anti-semitic. we should be careful to disassociate ourselves and this website with that kind of reptilian trash talk.
i have been critical of AIPAC and American politicians who unquestioningly back the Israeli government even when it is wrong. joe lieberman is at the head of the line amongst that group. i think he is dead wrong about a lot of things including his position on iraq. that being said, we should make sure we separate our position from that of the flatheads.
I read a Kos diary that said msnbc would have Olbermann and Wallace doing the Ford funeral.
I hope it gives Keith an inspiration regards the awful legacy left by the Nixon pardon. What a fine rant that could be. Maybe prep the audience with some Dean and Greenwald commentary.
Jane! we get to do another year?! Woohoo!
I’m in!
Hugh, thanks for the two timelines. Then insert the timing of Ray McGovern’s comments, the Downing Street memos release, the Joe Wilson editorial, and whole herd of prescient comments.
And we still don’t know where it leaves us.
Hugh @ 84
This pdf contains detailed information. Useful (and relatively up-to-date) reference.
I’m down for another year.
Kathryn in MA @
55
i’m not 100% sure i accurately remember my political philosophy class of 1965 but it goes something like this: what we know of socrates’ teaching we get through plato. plato could be taken for a fascist, or at least not a democrat. and what fascist implications might have meant then can be quibbled against the 20th century version. how socrates would have dealt with the issues we face now is unknowable. the athenians felt threatened by socrates because he taught young men to think, not because he wanted Athens to have it’s democracy undermined. not altogether different from the situation we find ourselves in riiiight now. who’d a thunk it.
Steve @
34
I think the count does NOT cout out of theater deaths. The count is only those who die on Iraqi soil.
Fresh thread, gang.
tryggth @ 89
Thanks for the link. I didn’t know this report was available although I had heard about it. The author Michael O’Hanlon from Brookings was a member of one of the working groups of the Iraq Study Group. He was one of the few liberals involved and he was included I think precisely because of the this work in parametrizing progress, or the lack of it, in Iraq.
looseheadprop @ 11
I think we really passed 3,000 some time ago. As others have noted, this toll doesn’t include all “out of theater” deaths. It doesn’t include the deaths of contract personnel, many of whom are Americans. It also doesn’t include “non-combat” deaths, accidents, disease, that sort of thing, which are more numerous because when you’re in a dangerous environment already these things happen more often.
P J Evans @ 73
Thanks for the tip. I’m watching a rerun of the parade now, and that sign shows up a lot. It’s right near the Norton Simon museum, so the cameras pick it up nicely. But I’m surprised no storm troopers have showed up to eliminate this threat to America’s long national hangover.
fahrender @ 90
history does recycle itself!
I haven’t read the book in years, so i don’t know what Stone had to say on that, but, for myself, people have to think in order make decent decisions – i’ll have to buy the book again, and go over that point again.
Sue @ 13
So glad you pointed this out. Whether or not Senator Lieberman reads his reviews or not, he will be made aware of his reception. Just added my two cents worth to the drubbing. God that felt good, what a way to start the New Year! Thanks. Christy, great post!!
Just got back from the PayPal page, I’ve tucked in a few bucks for bandwidth or poodle chow or TRex chow (don’t call him late for dinner).
BTW, Jane or Christy,
The Salon wish-page was history when I got to it yesterday, but I’d love to see some interviews with possible BlueAmerica candidate. I would like to see how Howie vets ‘em, as I have a congresscritter who seriously needs the door shown to her. Dems are pretty lethargic in MI-10, but starting early is a good way to make the most of small $.
If FDL funds are req’d, how about a BYOB (Bring Your Own Bandwidth) day? One day where you have to pony up $5 to post or somehing? Also, I have no idea of what a reasonable contrib would be, I’m just going by what I’d pay for a newspaper or a magazine.
Hotflash at 99 — Thanks, it is much appreciated. And great suggestions. :)
What if EVERYONE who READ THIS BLOG -emailed the NYT article to everyone they know — including links to “PEOPLE’S” HISTORY –
“WE must be the change we seek.” Ghandi:
A People’s History of the United States
by Howard Zinn
http://www.thirdworldtraveler……_Zinn.html
Stephen Parrish — good question, to which I honestly don’t know the answer. I suspect you do…? I think that John Kennedy absolutely did have a tremendous role in writing his own speeches, and his brother surely wrote most of his own. MLK certainly wrote his. Of FDR I am uncertain — but I am confident that all of these figures KNEW, fully grasped the content of their speeches.
I don’t know about Carter, but I suspect he would never read anything out loud to which he could not subscribe. Ditto Johnson, just because he was an ornery cuss who would not be caught dead in a situation where he could not back what came out of his mouth (hence his response to feedback from the infamous Daisy ad).
Kathryn in MA — that’s an unsolicited recommendation if both Trials and Earth in Balance never returned. Heh.
fahrender — I think the other point we are missing about fascist/not fascist is that the governments of the Mediterranean were hardly what we Americans would recognize as democratic today, as evidenced by the lack of an appeals process and the immediacy of punishment following Socrates’ sentencing.
Kathryn in MA @
97
there have been a lot of interpretations of plato and socrates and some of them are significantly different from others. the same can be said for nietzsche. i’m embarassed that i don’t remember the name but there was a swiss political philosopher, who taught at LSU of all places, during the late thirties and early forties. hubert humphrey went to baton rouge to study with him. my class was with another of his students. i do know that what he had to say was significantly different from that of the guru at the university of chicago that wolfowitz and the neocons studied with.
Rayne @ 102
rayne,
agreed. ironic how this description echoes that of what happened last weekend.
fahrender at 103 — I studied with a professor who had studied under Strauss at the UofChicago for his graduate work — the very same Strauss that all of the neocons claim as their forefather of thought. And his interpretations of Plato and Nietzsche and many other political philosophy strains was not remotely lockstep with what Wolfowitz and the neocons have put forth as Straussian philosophy. I think they have done with the work of Strauss and the reading of all the great philosophers what they have done with every other piece of information that has come across their paths: cherry-picked those bits which affirmed their own worldview, and ignored or attempted to discredit the rest, regardless of its solidity of foundation.
Which is to say, again, they lie to themselves as much as they lie to the rest of us.
But the professor that I had was very much the Socratic method sort of prof — and demanded that we rigorously be able to not only pick through all sides of an argument, but that we be prepared to stand up for our end of things as well and to look at its weaknesses from all sides. He and Alan Bloom had regular phone calls wherein they haggled various philosophical bits and pieces, and he never stopped asking questions which, to me, is the point of philosophical examination.
And to be clear, I’m not saying that Strauss was correct in all of his thinking — but I do find it beneficial to look at an issue or a theory from a myriad of sides. And I occasionally do pull out a Straussian text to counterbalance something I’m reading and can find it very useful. The point being that everyone has to work toward their own truth — really work — and not just use the information in front of them as a series of props that can be picked through at random to prop up the play scenery. That gets us right back to the cave allegory in The Republic, which is where I sometimes feel far too many folks get mired and never bother to emerge.
Cujo359 @
95
Do you remember one of the first curious deaths when (MS)NBC’s David Bloom died as he was reporting on extremely toxic chemical levels in either the Tigris or Euphrates?
“We must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent or omniscient — that we are only 6 percent of the world’s population; that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94 percent of mankind..”
Actually, using the US and World population clocks at http://www.census.gov I find that we are 4.58% of the world’s population. And we use 25% of the world’s resources. This is grotesque, and the ultimate source of our wars–to maintain this hoggish lifestyle. We need to join the rest of the world in finding a way to right life on our only planet.
Christy Hardin Smith @
106
yeah, you are sooo right. nobody has it all down. like science itself, seeking something which is more true than what we think we know now. meanwhile, we keep kicking fuckwad’s arse!
3,000 Dead Soldiers
3,000 Flags (very patriotic)
3,000 Flower Arraignments
(Maybe this is what Bush/Cheney/Rummy meant when they said we would be greeted by flowers. It reminds me of the stories NYC children told of the birds flying out of the towers on September 11th. Under questioning, the children admitted that they knew the birds were really people. Will the child Bush ever admit the flowers we were greeted with were funeral arrangements?)
Ya’ know, I’m just so glad to see Russ Feingold finally get some damned credit, I had to share this!
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=152347