
By now you have no doubt heard or read that Saddam Hussein was hanged in Iraq. The death sentence that had been passed from the courts during his first trial was carried out, after one last appeal for a retrial on legal grounds of inappropriate conduct and/or incorrect application of law and evidence or request for clemency was rejected.
I am struggling, frankly, to decide how I feel about all of this in the wake of the swiftness of the appeals process. To be honest, Saddam Hussein was a murderous tyrant who terrorized the population of Iraq, including members of his own family, for reasons that only he in his madness and anger understood. People were brutally tortured and murdered at his command, often for very minor offenses. He was a brute and an altogether evil human being. Having spent time as a prosecutor, and as defense counsel, for folks who fit part of that description, and knowing that there are some people who are not fit to walk freely among the rest of us — truly, and honestly, not fit nor safe under just about any circumstances — I can see the argument for the death penalty for someone such as Hussein.
But I cannot be comfortable with it. For some reason, no matter that I know what horrors he committed over the years, this does not sit well with me.
Perhaps it is the rush of the appeals process. Perhaps it is the mess of a trial, the fundamental questions as to whether true due process could ever have been achieved under circumstances such as this. Perhaps it is the whispers of the heavy thumb on the scales of justice that the US is said to have weighed in with in this particular case, or the questions of the verdict being assured from the start. Certainly there is more than enough evidence out there that Saddam Hussein ought to have been convicted, but to do so through a trial where the circumstances were not all open, above-board and as beyond reproach as anyone could ever muster makes me uncomfortable, to say the least.
Perhaps the issue for me is the seeming lack of any empathy, even for a monster like Saddam Hussein. I have asked for other human beings to be sent to the penitentiary for the rest of their long lives, sometimes very young people facing a very long life in a dank hole with barely a window and a whole lot of violence. These were people who deserved such punishment in my evaluation of the evidence and their potential to do even more harm were they free. But I never, ever did so lightly, and never without some pang of remorse for having to do so — no matter the long string of evil that the person had done.
To be involved in such a case is personally painful. On the one side, you see the family of the victim(s) involved, their pain, their anguish, their longstanding anger at the person who committed the crime against their loved one. On the other, you see that same pain and anguish, but for different reasons entirely, in the family of the accused — trying to make sense of the violence and horror that their loved one has committed, and never quite being able to reconcile the child they remember and the evil that they have become.
It is a horrible moment, that first time that the families meet eyes in the courtroom, the tension, the anger, the pain, all comingling in the brief glances or the avid stares; the accused's family fighting between the pity and horror of what has been done, and the wretched anguish of the punishment that may be meted out — and the desperate, clinging hope that whatever the evidence, that it will not be found to point toward their child, their brother, their friend. The family of the victim simply stares back, willing some answer as to how the seemingly decent folks across the room could have raised such a monster, and desperately wishing that their lost loved one would come walking through the courtroom door once more, but knowing in their heart of hearts that it will never be.
It is never easy, nor should it be. Mercifully, for my conscience, WV is not a death penalty state. I think that may have been more than I could have wrestled with, to be completely honest about it, the fear always being that you get it wrong — somehow, in all of the evidence evaluation and all of the days of investigation and review, that you still, somehow get it wrong. To do so in a case where someone was killed in the name of justice would have been unbearable.
I have always understood the celebration at a guilty verdict and tough sentence on the part of the victims' family. There is a need for some form of closure, some retribution, something to happen to the person who has taken the life of the person that you loved with all your heart. It's human nature. And it is human nature as the person requesting that verdict to feel pride in achieving that result.
But I never did so in any case without a comperable feeling of loss — that this person, no matter how horrible, how evil, how heinous their crime, no matter the hours that I put in on autopsy photos and tracking back their criminal history, no matter how well deserved and necessary, that this broken, lost soul was to be locked away. It should never be easy. (Of course, I say this from the comfort of my home state, having never had to face the murderous evil of a serial killer through the course of my career, and I imagine that may have been a different level of evaluation on my part, had that occurred.)
Perhaps it was because, in the digging and investigation, you so often got a glimpse of the horrible childhood, the physical and emotional abuse, the abandonment, the stark realities of life that came crashing in on that person at such a young age — which was never, ever an excuse for the conduct — EVER – but did explain, on some level, why the person was so irretrievably broken in those occasions where long-term incarceration seemed the only and best answer for the rest of society's benefit.
As I read through the news articles on the Saddam hanging this morning, it was that lack of human compassion, even on any level, that struck me as somehow unseemly, as undignified and as uncivilized, barbaric even. That feeling of someone being thrown to the lions, no matter how deserving of punishment, while the masses look on and cheer at the tearing from limb to limb — the disgusting spectacle of bread and circuses, set to a theme song and a hasty graphics design on the 24-hour news networks.
And then I found the article that John Burns did for the NYTimes, and I understood what it was that I had been looking for — some sense of the whole of the story, not just its disperate parts. Burns has been covering the Middle East and, in particular, Iraq, for over a decade now, and his pieces never fail to illuminate some aspect of the culture or the people involved in a way that I had not thought of before. I love his prose, his eloquent writing voice but, in this article in particular, it is the balance of all the disperate threads into a bumpy, ill-weaved whole that finally brings together the story for me.
It is this portion that really brings the dichotomy of the situation into full, stark view:
…From 20 feet away on an observer’s bench, seated beside the late Peter Jennings of ABC News and Christiane Amanpour of CNN, I caught my first glimpse of the man who had become in my years of visiting Iraq under his rule, a figure of mythic brutality, a man so feared that the mention of his name would set the hard, unsmiling men assigned to visiting reporters as “minders” to shaking with fear, and on one occasion, in my experience, to abject weeping.
But this was not that Saddam. The man who stepped into the court had the demeanor of a condemned man, his eyes swiveling left, then right, his gait unsteady, his curious, lisping voice raised to a tenor that resonated fear. Quickly, he fixed his gaze on the handful of foreigners in the court, and I had my own moment of anxiety when it came to my mind that he was intent on remembering the faces of the non-Iraqis that were there to witness his humiliation, perhaps to get word through to his lawyers, and then on to the insurgents, that we were to be punished for our intrusion. It was only later, after I learned what he had been told before being taken from his cell to the court, that I understood that our presence meant something else to him entirely, that with foreigners present, he was not going to be summarily hanged or shot.
THE Americans who were his jailers in the first days after his capture — aboard an American aircraft carrier and then at a converted detention center known as Camp Cropper at the edge of Baghdad’s airport — had chosen, on that summer day, to give Saddam a taste of the fear that he exhilarated in imposing on others. All he was told was that he was being taken “to face Iraqi justice.” Small wonder, as the architect of a quarter-century of repression, that he should fear that he was about to suffer the torture and grisly death that he had inflicted on so many others.
At that instant, I felt sorry for him, as a man in distress and perhaps, too, as a once almighty figure reduced to ignominy. But the expression of that pity to the Iraqis present marked the distance between those, like me, who had taken the measure of Saddam’s terror as a visitor, shielded from the worst of it by the minders and the claustrophobic world of closely guarded hotels and supervised Information Ministry trips, and Iraqis who lived through it with no shield.
That I could feel pity for him struck the Iraqis with whom I talked as evidence of a profound moral corruption. I came to understand how a Westerner used to the civilities of democracy and due process — even a reporter who thought he grasped the depths of Saddam’s depravity — fell short of the Iraqis’ sense, forged by years of brutality, of the power of his unmitigated evil….
The process of demanding someone's incarceration or, in this case, death by hanging, can be such a matter of perspective. Having stood with my feet on both sides of the legal aisle — as criminal defense counsel for a number of years and then as an assistant prosecutor, how you view the defendant can be very different on either side of the case — although not always, despite having to do your job with vigor as defense counsel regardless.
We have yet to discover what the long-term results of such a death will be. Perhaps they will be nothing, Saddam having been captured and his trial and its results having been a foregone conclusion in a lot of minds for quite a while now, although I suspect his hanging will have been a jolt to a number of his Ba'athist supporters who probably still suspected that Saddam Hussein would die of old age in prison rather than the government taking the chance of his hanging inciting more violence in an already war ravaged nation.
In my mind, though, the greater question is how this particular trial, this particular action and death will affect the long-term view of the United States as a true voice for justice and human rights, for which we have long been such an able voice in the international forum. If there are so many questions being asked about the conduct of the trial, the swiftness of the appeals process, the custody of the person being hanged, and on and on, will these questions ever be truly answered. And once they are, will they leave us in a good light.
I know that the argument should and will be made that this was an Iraqi trial, by a sovereign Iraqi government and judiciary system. But the trial and judges and attorneys, all of the person involved being constantly under threat of death throughout, were up to their robes in American judicial advisors. And, as such, I believe it was incumbent upon those advisors and our government to ensure the fairness of the proceedings to the fullest extent possible. The question is — did we do so?
And that answer, I am afraid, is the one that we will not get for a long time to come. And in the waiting for it to even be asked is the further consequence to our reputation as the guardians of justice. The search for any sort of justice does not come in the easy cases, the ones where you have a confession and a crime so heinous that the request for punishment comes as a relief to everyone involved, including the remorseful defendant.
The search for justice comes in the little actions, the difficult choices, the close cases, the ones where you have a difficult defendant who has committed heinous atrocities, and you still have the character and the moral standing to treat that person with the same standing as anyone else would be given under the rule of law. Was that the case for Saddam Hussein? History will long-from-now look back on this and judge it, kindly or harshly, but in the meantime, the world looks on and we will know their judgment soon enough. But it is my own doubts about our role in this process that are causing me to ask questions — and I am not certain that the answers will bring me much, if any, comfort.
But, search we all must, because that is our duty as citizens of this nation. For it is in the accounting of this and every other case that the true search for justices lies. Especially where those answers seem as difficult as these may be.
(Artwork is one in a series by Edwin Abbey.)
Related posts:
- BREAKING: High Court Rules Safford Strip Search Unconstitutional
- Holder Overturns Justice Jackson and Nuremberg
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Christopher Eisgruber, The Next Justice: Repairing the Supreme Court Appointments Process
- A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to al-Haramain Justice
- Isikoff Pops the Question: Newsweek Reporter asks Holder About Torture





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Fitz!
Anyone here going to argue for Saddam’s hanging?
I remember the old John Wayne movie “Chisum” where the character playing the now famous lawman Pat Garrett told Billy the Kid that around Billy there was always that “smell of death”.
Giveb Bush’s propensity for executing prisoners in Texas while Governor, or his execution of brave American troops engaged in his personal vengetta, and now the death of Hussein, every time I see or hear Bush, I can’t help but think about his “smell of death”.
Noonan @ 2
I still think it depends whether you accept that the death penalty is a just punishment or not. How can anyone who is morally against the death penalty applaud this hanging?
The dubious justice of hanging Saddam aside, this execution rules out his blowing the whistle on the totality of his dealings with U.S. administrations over the years.
We would have been better served if, instead of hanging the jerk, he had been subjected to a lengthy public debriefing, a chance for him to “tell all”…
But that would have upset too many apple carts, now wouldn’t it have?
Better with these inconvenient dictators who were once on cozier terms with our own deciderers to silence them and slam the door shut on inconvenient and embarrassing revelations.
typo – graf beginning with “In my mind” – for justice aNd human rights
[Mod Note; thanks for the heads up. Refresh and it should be corrected]
poztron @ 5
Bingo. hammer, meet nail…
christof @ 4
On the question of “just punishment,” I think it is important to first establish whether the death penalty is any kind of “punishment” at all. In behavioral psychology, “punishment” is the application of an undesired stimulus toward the goal of modifying the subject’s behavior. By that definition, killing can never be punishment–it does not and cannot elicit a behavioral modification.
There is something so pathetic about this video, including the way Saddam almost has dignity at the end.
The rushed necktie party with all the trimmings: black masks, a giant noose, executioners that looked like hired NYC taxi drivers…all put an end to further trialsespecially for the Kurdish Massacre in which it would have been proper to call Bush Sr. and Rummy to the stand to explain themselves.
This was badly played and will come back to haunt us.
christof @ 4
Amen…..
Then there is the whole timing of this event. I cannot forget that BushCo still controls things and events. John Dean told me that BushCo … everything they do, say, decide and develop is 100% politics first. No thought of what is good for the Country, the World, or the American People. It is Politics.
So what is the politics of Saddams death?
Take the media spotlight off the Ford – Woodward interview?
Take the spotlight off the developing buildup of troops and navy in the middle east?
Is it to hide the eventual start of WWIII?
Or some other crime?
As I stated downstairs…. I am sick of heart today with the execution. I have lived in the near middle east, I experienced life and events that occured in Iran/Iraq and other countries. I guess as a person, I have evolved from the eye for an eye to What you do to the least of us.
It was no accident that the first (and only completed) trial for Saddam covered an incident in Dujail which had no U.S. involvement, either directly or indirectly.
poztron @ 5
Or, how about having him tried at The Hague as a chance for all of the above, plus the added bonus of providing the international community to give more legitimacy to the Iraqi government?
Thank you so much for this post, Christy. I think this will be one of the few places where the WHOLE of this will have any chance of being thoroughly discussed, thoughtfully.
Perhaps this is an area where the idea of “justice” as in “Middle East” and “West” will come face to face.
What strikes me is the history of the use of the death penalty in Saudi Arabia (for one example) against women, by the sword IIRC, (for indiscretion that seems incredibly minor to me/maybe us) by hanging (in Saddam’s case, and others in Iraq), the scale of the crimes (in his case, by comparison), and our use of it–let’s just use TX and FL as some examples.
Anyway, I imagine we could just compare and contrast. The use of the death penalty in the Middle East seems a bit capricious perhaps.
But we have overlaid our own sorry aspect on this, and while there is celebration in Iraq by many, I really cannot celebrate this. At the same time, perhaps even in kangaroo version, Saddam got better than some poor women in Saudi Arabia, with his trial.
One thing I have found interesting is his final missive, “don’t hate the occupiers.”
Again, thanks for this.
katymine @ 10
I doubt that it was timed in that way. I suspect that they just said” “get it over with before the end of the year.” That way they can look back on 2006 and say, “well, at least we brought Saddam to justice!”
I expect to see that bragging point brought up by Georgie very shortly.
Christy – As a lawyer, I think I can help with your dilemma. My feelings were as ambivalent as yours; certainly he was a tyrant who, if anyone deserved the death penalty, fit the criteria, and yet…
I think that we are offended, not by the punishment, not even by the process, but by the LABELING of the process as a ‘fair trial’ or as ‘due process’. As members of the bar, we were taught how the law is the servant of the people and the great equalizer. Here, the law was perverted in a Queen of Hearts manner (Sentence first, verdict afterward), which I think, even if it was ADMITTED that it was a perversion, I might not have felt so, well, soiled about.
Instead, we’ve heard solemn pronouncements about how fair the process was and about how the ‘law worked’.
In our hearts, we, as members of the legal fraternity know damn well that ‘the law’ had precious little to do with it. I can only speak for myself on this, but I think I would have felt better if he had been shot in the spider hole.
This is a true test of one’s conviction opposing capital punishment. For me, this was wrong. The process was wrong, and the purpose of killing Saddam was not for anything noble like justice. As Steve Gilliard pointed out, weak governments kill their enemies.
I can’t help but think the rush to the gallows is tied up in Bush the Lesser’s death fetish combined with his understanding that in a few days, when the Democratically-led 110 Congress convenes, his time as dictator of the United States comes to end. He needed to kill Saddam before he was prevented from doing it, and to prove to himself and/or the world that he’s tougher than his father.
The trial not being held in a neutral place like the Hague is a travesty of international law. The sudden, secretive execution in the middle of the night was more like a murder than carrying out any form of justice.
Our country is being led by cowards.
josh marshall says it well:
Saddam is dead. All of this navel gazing is too late.
Saddam was a monster, but I pose this uncomfortable question; is Iraq better off now thsn it was under this horrible, and violent man? Think clearly here. Read the news accounts, and see 2998 of our sons and daughters are dead due to the lies, incompetence, and delusions of old men refighting a past war?
Saddam was terrible. But he was an old tyrant of nearly 70 years of age. He deserved to be at least locked away. But this wasn’t about justice, or fair play or morality, or ‘doing the right thing.’ Saddam’s execution was about revenge. It was a rub out of a gangster by other gangsters. All of the legalistic cogitations this side of Des Moines will not make this rub out any more than the silencing it was.
If this were about justice Christy, Saddam would have been taken to the Hague….but justice wasn’t the objective here. Saddam’s silence was.
Whatever the merits of the death penalty in the case of Saddam (which merits could also be argued for the war crimes committed by our current war criminal in chief), the reason for the rush to execute him were, as chance would have it, properly pointed out today by a country that wanted him dead long ago: Iran. Those reasons were simply that the Iraqi/U.S. puppet government rushed the sentence being carried out so that the U.S. would be spared a dead-row Saddam spilling the details of how he for many decades, beginning with his taking power, was a pawn and agent of the U.S.! Read the history: Failed States by Noam Chomsky has a good summary of the appalling hypocrisy of U.S. policy, including the history of Iraq. Saddam was, like Noriega, for many years a C.I.A. asset; and therefore necessarily had to be silenced once he no longer was an asset to U.S. national interests, as determined by the U.S. ruling elite…
Written like a true attorney, Christy. Examine the details and fundamentals of the trial to determine if justice was served.
I share in the philosophy of the means justify the results, and feel this deserves examination.
President Carter was the one who placed human rights front and center in American foreign policy and has been roundly ridiculed by the conservatives.
Further examinations require one to seek the the conception of of this trial–why did it occur. The tragic and brutal treatment of Iraqi’s by this sadistic dictator are the reasons cited at first blush.
It was the war that gave birth to this trial, and the reasons for it have all fell by the wayside, save one.
“He tried to kill my Pa.” Farticus
Dan Rather
Ann Richards
Just another check on Jr’s. hit parade.
I don’t think the jury is out on America’s position on human rights 2.0
Darfur?
Or closer to home:
Katrina.
wonderful post, Christy.
Sometimes I wonder if there shouldn’t be some requirement that the attorneys on either side of major felony cases have experience on both sides of the aisle. Impractical, I know. I, for one, would be disqualified, because I just don’t know how I could ever prosecute. Present company very much excepted, the prosecutorial mindset, at least around here, has too much of a God-complex for me.
But I love that you have been on both sides, and it always heartens me to read your opinions, forged after viewing the crim justice system from both sides. Not to mention the way in which you describe yur thought process, and the care and genuine concern, for all involved, which always comes through.
Wish there were more like you.
God loves us, I hope. All of us.
poztron @
5
exactly. same with Timothy McVey
Christy.
I left a thingie EPU’d downstairs (PullUpaChair #199).
Not at all relevant here, but would appreciate your considering suggestion therein for future subject matter. Thanks.
Thank for this post, Christy. You’ve expressed much of what I’m feeling, and I don’t even have your own experience in prosecution.
There is nothing that will make whole or right the damages Saddam perpetuated on the people of Iraq; this is why I feel not only disgust but dissatisfaction with the death penalty for any criminal. Yet I cannot help but feel that forcing him to work with his bare hands to improve the lives of others would have been far more just. Sentencing him to feeding the some of the poor of his country by obligatory hard labor in a prison garden would have been much closer to justice.
His corpse provides for no one.
And then there’s the complicity of others; was the timing of Rumsfeld’s stepping down as SecDef related to this debacle? What will the former SecDef do to make whole the people that he has damaged — if ever?
dratty @ 15
Agreed. Had this been the result after a trial by, and in front of, impartial parties (the Hague, as someone else said) then I could say, “Justice has been done.”
Instead, I’m just left with a queasy feeling, because – just like the deaths of almost 3000 troops – his death will change nothing in Iraq.
the reason you aren’t comfortable with it is the very people that brought him to trial are the people that brought him to power, sold him the tools of his depravity, protected his power, held him in power, and condoned his actions while he was committing them
saddam didn’t become an enemy of America until he threatened to trade his oil in euros
you will be satisfied when his accomplices are brought to the same justice saddam earned
please to watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r42oejmpkgw
I don’t know if anyone has dealt with this idea in the thread, but my first shuddering thot, after being moderately surprised execution could be scheduled so soon after conviction, was that surely the faceshooter must be jealous of their efficient system of “justice”.
We MUST keep up the fight to restore justice within our own country…
Thank heaven for FDL.
See a sarcastic visual of George Bush playing a round of “Hangman”…here:
http://www.thoughttheater.com
dratty at 15 — I think, perhaps, you have hit on much of my discomfort there. Thanks. It’s the same discomfort I feel each and every time some botched criminal proceeding gets splashed all over the news — knowing that getting to the real truth or justice of the case is likely lost in the mess that has been made of the case, and what a shame that is for everyone involved. What a mess.
Saddam is dead, let it go.
unclemike @ 31
No, goddamnit. I most certainly shall not.
surely the faceshooter must be jealous at their efficient system of “justice”.
Actually, it occurs to me that this example of “international justice” might just scare the shit of Mr. Cheney.
Arrogant head of state, responsible for tens of thousands of Iraqii deaths. Mislead world about Iraqii WMDs.
Hague would have been better, IMHO.
puppethead @
16
Let me associate myself with these remarks.
We have to keep reminding ourselves what a beast Saddam was, don’t we? No one has a fair trial whose lawyers are in fear of being killed or of their families being killed.
It was a show trial. We all know it. Whatever Saddam Hussein was, the trial and execution are about the triers and executioners.
I feel guilty about the entertainment that this act has created.
Did I watch the TV like a crack addict waiting for an announcement where to get a free month’s supply? Of course…
Did I log on this morning while my wife and sick kid were in the living room enjoying a pleasent chat? Of course…
I want to let it go. But the compulsion to read just a little bit more, to watch just a little bit more has become tiresome, it not worrisome.
And what have we accomplished? Justice? Revenge? Politics?
Now I’m going to seek balm in the mundane: shop for groceries; put food in my house; do some laundry; hug my feverish daughter.
Thanks for listening.
typo
paragraph 12, line 4 “thrown”
[Mod Note; nice catch. Refresh and it should be corrected.]
Looks like this latest “milestone” on the road to Iraqi democracy is already paying dividends.
Astounding. 68-plus die in a day, and the AP can blithely report that this was “not unusually high.” Kinda makes you want to take a journalist out for a drink and then puke on him, doesn’t it?
tryggth @ 34
Do you mean Bush or Saddam? And should it scare me that I find it necessary to ask?
Wonderful post Christy.
Thank you for putting us inside a fine attorney’s mind. Takes one doozie of a writer to do that so well. ;->
And…
Now we don’t have to worry about Saddam chirping from the peanut gallery during the congressional investigations due to start. So that’s a plus….
unclemike @ 31
Oh, sure, Unca Mike, yep, we’ll let it go. Everything’s better now, the war is won, it’s the Big Iraq Candy Mountain.
Offing Saddam Hussein before security was established is worth an extra 200,000 dead people in 2007. Or to put that into terms you can understand: it helps push the Iraqi conflict into a wider Mid-East conflict, which will make your gasoline more expensive. And that’s a real bitch, idn’t it?
EvilDP, left a question for you under the chair.
perris @ 27
dollars, euros, Iraq
off topic, but you should get an image security
code to prevent the annoying automatic responses from twolf1
Earlier this morning on MSNBC I heard a Northwestern University law professor make a point that resonated. The speed of execution meant that Saddam would not testify in any other trials against himself/his cohorts. The professor noted that Saddam’s own testimony revealed information no one had previously known.
Such potential information is now lost to judgment and history in other trials such as re the marsh Arabs.
Mr. Sunshine’s point was more direct: history is filled with tyrants and their crimes and whether/how they are brought to justice. But who will tell us now just how they drained those marshes?
I see the whole thing as more short-term thinking by Bushco…seemingly all they are capable of, whether it’s war or economy or environment. And let history and generations to come be damned.
John Rice @ 45
Off topic, but if you don’t like it, don’t read it.
Not to belittle the ‘labeling’ problem that I alluded to upthread, but I think that perhaps this hypothetical fact pattern might be in order:
It’s December of 2004 and the war has been fought to a standstill. The coalition has taken most of Iraq, including Baghdad, however Saddam has fled and successfully set up a government in Al-Anbar province. While inspecting troops on the frontline at the border of AlAnbar, Gen. Abazaid’s motorcade is ambushed and he is captured.
He is put on trial, WITH THE SAME RIGHTS AND PROCEDURES AS SADDAM HAD and with the same result. He is sentenced to death. His appeal is quickly denied and the sentencing is carried out WITH THE SAME RESPECT, AND WITH THE SAME MEDIA COVERAGE BY IRAQI STATIONS AS TODAY’S.
Anyone wish to venture a guess as to how many media pundits would be using the words ‘fair trial’, ‘due process’ or ‘justice’?
Mommybrain @ 43
For some damn fool reason, my browser won’t let me open that thread right now. I’ll check it again later.
John Rice @ 45
Here we go again – over-educated readers thinking our traditions are silly. Or worse.
Mommybrain @ 50
is he jealous?
John Rice @
45
eh?
Mommybrain @ 50
Exactly. And now, he’ll wonder why his whiny nitpicking meets with hostility.
Leisure Guy!!!
God! This is exactly what the conservatives don’t get about us and sometimes, frankly, it confuses the hell out of me too. No, I do not support Bush’s war in Iraq (I don’t support anything that mongrel frat boy has done) and yes, I think it has been a colossal waste of blood and treasure BUT Saddam Hussein got what was coming to him. Period!
Cripes! If thousands of Iraqis, who are daily suffering through the agonizing hell that we have inflicted upon them, can take to the streets and celebrate the justified execution of this monster, what f88king right do we have, from the comfort of our homes, to kvetch and moan about due process and the morality (or lack thereof) of capitol punishment?
twolf1 @ 52
He doesn’t like the first-post tradition. Screw him.
I am sure the Shiites and Kurds are happy. The American have probably come to the realization that his death is not worth the human life and and treasure it has required. It reminds me of Howard Dean saying we weren’t any safer after he was captured. The media collectively rolled their eyes when they reported him saying it. The country was still full of that landing on the carrier. How far we have come and how much wiser we are on the day of Saddam’s death.
twolf1 @ 52
just tell ‘im yer annoyed, & so’r yer friends…
Okay gang, let’s not pile on, shall we? Opinions expressed on both sides, so please let it go now. Thanks.
Not to belabor the ‘labeling’ problem that I alluded to upthread, but I think that perhaps this hypothetical fact pattern might be in order:
It’s December of 2004 and the war has been fought to a standstill. The coalition has taken most of Iraq, including Baghdad, however Saddam has fled and successfully set up a government in Al-Anbar province. While inspecting troops on the frontline at the border of AlAnbar, Gen. Abazaid’s motorcade is ambushed and he is captured.
He is put on trial, WITH THE SAME RIGHTS AND PROCEDURES AS SADDAM HAD and with the same result. He is sentenced to death. His appeal is quickly denied and the sentencing is carried out WITH THE SAME RESPECT, AND WITH THE SAME MEDIA COVERAGE BY IRAQI STATIONS AS TODAY’S.
Anyone wish to venture a guess as to how many media pundits would be using the words ‘fair trial’, ‘due process’ or ‘justice’?
twolf1 @ 54
LOL – (the veterans will understand)
OT: Guess this ends the myth that morale is high and the troops are gung-ho for Bush, eh?
goodgawd whose the one who had problems wid a puppy chasin’ the kitties? heh
Christy Hardin Smith @ 59
aw gee whiz mom. awright, sigh.
When the chrages were first announced against Saddam, the reporters covering it live were all stunned. Dujail? What, where? No one had heard of it.
The extremely fast time from verdict to carrying out the sentence was not surprising, considering how many of Iraq’s new laws were written by Bush cronies. Boilerman10 has it right.
He had to be gone before too many questions were asked about the Reagan-Bush era Iraq related activities.
Thank you, Christy, for saying what no one on tv will. Even this case isn’t as cut and dried as they claim. There’s a reason abused kids grow up to be criminals, and Saddam was abused as a child. You’re absolutely right that it’s not an excuse, but there are reasons. He lived a miserable life and died a miserable death.
be sure to check riverbend
Saddam’s is but one more in the train wreck that is the US invasion of Iraq.
I look at it the same as any murderous madman killed along with hundreds of thousands of innocents.
Nothing to mourn, but hardly cause for celebration.
Adults in charge!
Now!
dratty @ 60
Thanks, Dratty, that was really good.
Rob at 55 — The Iraqi portion of all of this isn’t something I question because, frankly, that is their place. But our involvement in this — in the judicial process, in the pressure of folks involved in that process, etc. — that is for all of us who live in this nation to look at and ask for some measure of accountability that our conduct was just and honorable. It is what the rule of law and checks and balances are for, after all, to ensure that mistakes, if any were made, are not repeated in the future. That is what a civilized nation does. Otherwise, we should just all sign up for a tin can dictatorship and be done with it and I, for one, am not putting my name on that list, thank you very much.
Well, it does seem to have American fingerprints all over it. The trial was a conclusion looking for evidence. The timing is suspect. The lack of consideration for appeal seemed hasty. What does it matter if Saddam was guilty, if the system entrusted with proving so is questionable? That feeling in the pit of your stomach that something dirty and wrong took place is there for a reason. The man may have been guilty as charged, but the process would allow for only one outcome. It is no longer food and circuses. It is unabashedly blood and circuses. The voice intoning the imminent death by hanging of Saddam Hussein on CNN sounded like the introduction to the latest horror flick. The MSM all but salivated. So if we all feel a little dirty and ashamed, there is good reason for it. Saddam may have received justice, but it was not necessarily by the book. The conclusion and sentence preceded the mock trial.
Summarize:
War bad–Saddam terrible–good riddance, with reservations.
When the choice is between two wrongs, which is the least wrong?
My feeling is as bad as Saddam was for Iraq, Bush is 1000 times worse–for them and for us and for the entire Middle-East, if not the world.
All is left is an experiential learning process, complete with bright shiny hearings to determine how we arrived at this place of horror and prosecutions for all those who misled and profitted from it.
No pain, no gain (ala Vietnam)
I don’t know if anyone else here reads OpinioJuris, but they had a post about the timing of the execution and the implications for Shia and Sunni. The article also links to a great piece by Juan Cole @ Salon.
Perspective:
The US invaded a sovereign nation in a pre-emptive strike against a fictitious threat.
All other actions taken in our name pale in comparison.
The only question is whether an international court will have the cojones to indict and how much it will ultimately cost our nation.
Rob @ 55
I think it might be the complete withdrawal of the United States from international law and international civility. It might be about due process. It might be about breaking apart a country that was not ours to break. It might be about the liars, felons and war criminals in our own government.
TheOtherWA @ 64
Nobody wanted to hear what Saddam had to say about cozy past business relationships. The US was the ringleader, but no other nations seemed to object to Saddam’s speedy kangaroo court trial and execution. Nobody wanted to air their dirty laundry so Saddam got the noose. Its disgusting and demonstrates how far we’ve come in two thousand years. We are still barbarians.
Adie @
63
They’re all sleeping like little angels now. :) I’m not, unfortunately.
btw, just a heads up gang — Howie will be here at his usual Blue America time today to kick off the next round of candidate discussion. We’re starting early for 2008 so we’ll have plenty of time this round. :)
dratty @ 15
Yes, exactly. Or if he had been dragged out and shot with only the thinnest excuse of a trial, like Ceausescu, it wouldn’t have been so offensive. And we have yet to be treated to endless declarations that he has been “brought to justice” by someone who believes that “justice” is the execution, not the trial.
EDP @ 38..It looks as if “another milestone” will be reached. 3000 US service-members will be killed before 2007. 2998 as of today.
OT but if you want to know where the troops are coming from for the “endless surge” go to Gilliard, “Not Again”
http://www.stevegilliard.blogs…..again.html
Glenn on the dichotomy of a fair trial for Saddam and our policy of internment for US citizens.
my global conscious @
170
MyGlobal Conscious – if you are still here, click on my name.
I come at this from the perspective that we have got to move from a paradigm where we control other people in order to have peace and serenity. The truth is that we each have peace if we want it. We have that power within our brains and do not need to control (or kill) to stop others from interupting our serenity. We can instead focus on our own sense of peace and create it. That is the power of the human brain and the message that Jesus taught us in his death. If I am jumping out of a burning building I have a choice about how I spend my last few moments. My pledge is to peace. And of killing another human being for the sake of some abject idea about how the world “should” be does not bring me peace because I am left with the inenviable position of not being “sure” it was okay to kill. I am painfully aware of the need to justify and this destroys my serenity. It is not my job to kill. It is my job to maintain my sanity no matter what the world is doing.
Wonderful post, Christy, and as usual at FDL, wonderful comments, like this one:
boilerman10 @
18
It’s easy to notice when something is present. It’s harder to notice an absence, until it’s pointed out. What this post and this comment points out to me — and correct me if I’m wrong — is that from the moment of his arrest to the moment of his death, Saddam was never once allowed to talk to a reporter, or to anyone who might have repeated his words without mediation by authorities, Iraqi or American.
Seen in that light, the speed with which this happened looks very bad indeed.
I believe that we are appalled for several reasons. The world knows that W. got off on the hanging of Saddam. The world knows that W. is just a evil. And since we all knew Saddam through the media it was like a distant neighbor had been hanged. It was personal.
The Search for Justice is the admirable title of this text. Evidently the search involves Saddam and the author, after going in to bizarre and baroque somersaults to make every reader understand that she is firmly convinced that Saddam was just as evil and nasty as evil and nasty can be, eventually expresses unease about the recent execution (= judicial murder = murder) of the brute. I stopped reading at this point so I’ll never know if she eventually gets around to musing about the usefulness and moral acceptability of murder by the state. You see, if Saddam had not been murdered, no one would feel unease and the rest of his acts could have been clarified and exposed to the world in the years to come. But, now, the beast had to be slaughtered, almost like the ritual sacrifice to which Saddam compared himself. The death penalty is a nasty relic of the past. I have the impression that nothing more strongly separates Europe and the other countries which have abolished judicial murder from the U.S. than this issue. Why are the good people of the U.S. so convinced of its usefulness and moral acceptabilty? They have a Leader with autocratic tendencies who seems to have reveled in his duty to have criminals executed while he was governor of Texas. Saddam has been silenced. Tariq Aziz has recently said he is ready to testify in trials and will spill the beans about some people in and outside Iraq. Can anyone imagine who he’s talking about? Maybe it’s time for another execution! Saddam could have been locked up in the Hague until another day and we would eventually have learned about a good chunk of Iraqi and western history during the second half of the 20th century: I’d call that Tales of the U.S. Empire.
Quentin at 85 — Well, if you hadn’t been so convinced of your superiority to the author on moral grounds and simply read a bit further, then you’d see that I, too, have difficulty with the death penalty. But, alas, you had to post prior to actually finishing the read.
I have a question…..
My 83 yr old Dad said that the reason that Saddam was hung was so he could not get into heaven, that the Muslim religion would not allow it.
Tried The google but only came up with gays being hung and such. Any one know?
The sentiments expressed in the blogosphere overwhelmingly disapprove of the hanging of Saddam Hussein and call into question the reason for this rushed execution. I have been combing through thousands of postings from all over the world since 4am.
As Mr. Hendra points out in the Huffington Post:
“Former American Puppet Executed By Current American Puppets”.
So, what is Bush’s political calculation behind sending Hussein to the gallows so swiftly? Shutting him up? No allowing the trial re. gassing of Kurds to proceed to impede Hussein from spilling the beans about his long liaisons dangereuses with the U.S.?
Whatever the answer, I feel deeply ashamed the U.S government has orchestrated and condoned a lynching and that such a barbaric measure as death by hanging is still practiced in the 21st century.
Despite the fact I have experienced the loss of a loved one to murder,
I strongly oppose the death penalty. It resolves nothing and only perpetuates the cycle of violence.
I will refrain from making “hung” jokes if people use the proper term, “hanged”.
You have been warned.
Quentin, I think you’re preaching to the choir here about the death penalty and our Dear Leader, as you might know if you’d take time to read.
We all know Brits are simply superior to Americans.
/snark
katymine @ 86
You can email Juan Cole. In my experience, he will reply.
http://www.juancole.com/
katymine @ 87
There are others here who may be more expert than I, but it is my understanding that some gays are indeed hung.
dratty @ 15
If he had been shot in the spider hole, we wouldn’t have had the spectacle that Bushco wanted for whatever reason. I am sickened by the death penalty. I am sickened that so many people are for the death penalty. If it is ever justified, perhaps it is for mega-mass murderers like Saddam and Bush. But only after a real trial with real appeals. There is no justice here, not with this.
A small measure of comfort might come when we overthrow the criminal Bush administration, end the Iraq war, and make whatever restitution we can to the Iraqi people.
hackworth,
at least I warned them, tastefully even.
katymine @ 87
I don’t find any evidence of that, but I do recall at the time of his sentencing, he demanded he was entitled to a firing squad, which is the military death penalty, because hanging is for common criminals.
From About.com:
Sigh.
I guess what is bothering me is that “justice” as it is practised in the US–for better and worse–those of us who read here have a heightened sense (I believe) of what it means to aspire to justice.
The “trial” and execution of Saddam is the pinnacle of the debacle in Iraq, to me. Because we (our community, progressives, whatever) would wish that some sense of “westernized” humanity had been shown with this case.
But there is no climate in Iraq for our sense of “justice” because retribution is what Iraqis wanted. And so, while we examine the elements–secrets (ours/his), the process, etc., we have not been successful in making any kind of change. Except for Saddam.
What is interesting to me is that perhaps Saddam had the best experience of anyone in the sense that the trial–however compromised it was by our standards–might have been more just in his eyes than anything he had ever meted out or experienced. Maybe more than he expected. And maybe he had an awakening in that regard.
But I suppose all of this is just lost in translation.
Bush trumped Saddam on everything EXCEPT killing his own family. Yet, Americans just yawn when it comes to Bush. (And no, I do not think voting out GOPers last Nov. means much.)
Why do you suppose that is? Why, because he is AMURCAN.
Gag me.
Noonan @
72
Oh, mercy. I wonder if choosing the date of the execution was out of ignorance or motivated by malice?
OT: Bill Watterson predicts W’s intentions on this day more than ten years in advance.
Those scales that Justice holds tell the tale.
Justice is about balance, about making right a wrong on behalf of those who were wronged and for the sake of civil society. An eye for an eye is not a requirement, but an end limit. In other words the penalty exacted may not exceed the crime.
In the case of murderers, many feel it is only just that they be killed to balance the equation. This is the only crime for which we inflict as a penalty the same act that is charged as a crime. We do not rob robbers, assault batterers, nor rape rapists. Why then do we kill murderers?
By asking the state to mete out justice in our names, we accept a limitation on what is restored to us for what has been taken. A dead loved one cannot be returned to us, an executed killer means only more loss and the scales are not balanced.
With the state as our surrogate, we must also demand a limitation on its power. The imperfect mechanism that we do not trust to get a parking violation correct cannot be trusted with the irreversible power to take life. One might think that conservatives – and certainly libertarians – might understand this.
My issue is not Saddam. It’s George Bush.
If one accepts for the moment that Bush took us into this Iraq war knowing full well, (as I believe he did), his reasons for attacking Iraq were based upon lies, the question then for me is what is the basic difference between the man they hanged last night and our president? They both killed a lot of people ‘illegally’.
Patrick –
But how many Americans think it would be great if a rapist got the death penalty? Talk about the punishment far exceeding the crime?
Americans are obsessed with sex.
OK kiddo,
Don’t confuse Farticus’ reasons for invading Iraq with what he told the American people.
There is no relationship between the two.
As the world reflects on the execution of Saddam the dicator, it also worth recalling the words of President Bush on dictatorship:
“A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there’s no question about it.”
- President George W. Bush, July 26, 2001.
“If this were a dictatorship, it’d be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator.”
- President-elect George W. Bush, December 18, 2000.
“You don’t get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot easier.”
- Texas Governor George W. Bush, July 1998.
Shell @ 102
As was noted in Colin Powells address at the UN:
“Never turn your back on someone named Sadam, especially if you are named Colin.”
Patrick 4/4 @ 100
Nicely put, Patrick4/4. I suspect that many of these Dominionists and Christianists who have worked so hard these past 20 or so years to get themselves elected to positions of power think the state is God – or certainly should be.
Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord. Et voila.
This is an extraordinary essay. Thank you so much for writing it. You articulated my own discomfort with what looked from the outside like a sleazy excuse for a trial. I wish he had been sent to the Hague for a real trial. The Nuremberg trials stand in contrast to our shabby enabling of this very political “justice.”
As a resident of Arizona, one of the highest death penalty states – TX, FL etc. I am appalled which cases and how many are sentenced to death, so many are hispanic too.
I was hoping that eventually this country would evolve back to a non-death penalty country with DNA evidence proving so many cases wrong. But since this country has outsourced our Prison system to private contractors which treat it as a business for profit, the more we have in prison the better.
Isn’t it justified because of what he did on 9/11?
Check out driftglass on the subject.
http://driftglass.blogspot.com/
bg @ 96
I disagree with that because I see very little evidence that what happened to Saddam had anything to do with what “the Iraqis” wanted (except maybe the leaders of the current Iraqi government), though it’s possible that by chance, the outcome was the same. We captured Saddam, we held him, we had multiple advisors directing and influencing the trial, the verdict was announced just before our election, etc. It may very well be that they wished retribution, but I think it is more presumptuous to assume that (check Riverbend’s “When All Else Fails, Execute the Dictator”, for example) than to assume that there ought to have been some semblence of judicial process.
This was an American production through and through (and per Riverbend, the Iraqis certainly saw it that way), and they see it as a demonstration of our justice, not theirs, which is yet another reason why it is so awful that our government did not bother to think of it that way.
EvilDP @ 38:
No, not really. A retired journalist, I expect that kill-the-messenger kind of comment from our neocon brothers and sisters, but not here. The AP report was simply stating that any anticipated rise in the level of violence after Saddam’s death was not yet being noted.
Oilfieldguy @ 103
I don’t assume the reasons George Bush gave to the American people were the ‘actual’ motivations for the invasion Iraq. But that does not alter the premise. The President lied. And the American people we’re not allowed to make a decision on the matter based on true facts.
John Rice @
45
new thread
Yeah Clusterfuck lied to go to war- but then they ALL do- presidents don’t just stand up and tell the truth about goin to war- they lie–(cf Gulf of Tonkin).
The lyin isn’t the worst part- it’s the judgement- it’s the asinine judgement that it would be a piece of cake and over in a few weeks with minimal casualties and that the oil would pay for the whole thing..That’s what he should be impeached for- but of course he won’t be.
dratty @ 48
Right on, dratty! I wish that more Americans can apply the principle of looking at the world from ANOTHER’s point of view. Unfortunately, we are very self-centered, and very selfish. I am speaking of those leaders who are in power today, of course.
I too am having some problems with my reactions to the Saddam hanging. Man’s inhumanity to man has always been a matter for deep thought. Is it more civilized to execute a man for his evil, or more just to let him get away with murder, like Idi Amin. Who is more guilty, the leader who orders the killing of others, or the ones who carry it out, as they did in Rwanda where hundreds of thousands were ruthlessly murdered. Where neighbors who formerly were acquaintances, even friendly, murdered each other because of the promise of some extra land. There were even reports that families exchanged their woman at night because the men were forced to rape their own daughters or sisters or mothers before they were killed. And what about occupying ourselves with a lenghty trial of one tyrant for crimes committed many years before, while we tolerate the current exploits of the Jangaweed in Darfor.
And yet we call ourselves civilized. At the same time, we now have a President who does not follow our laws, who has broken his oath of office with each signing statement, and who has sent thousands to their deaths in a trumped up war. Still, the likelihood of George Bush being brought to justice for his high crimes and misdemeaners within the two year remaining time frame of his term in office is virtually nil, according to John Dean’s recent article in Findlaw. The reason: the short answer is because the adults in Congress can count. The best we can expect is investigations to determine the extent of infringements and possible impeachment of lower level officials, so that they can never come back and haunt us like the ones in the current administration have. Meanwhile, as George W cocks up to carry this mistake of a war even further, the terrorists win a little more with every loss of life and limb of our soldiers (which further weakens our armed forces) and with every one of our constitutional rights that is set aside “for our own good.” Yes, by God, it’s a great life if you don’t weaken.
I have this quaint notion. “The truth will you (us) free”.
Aside from the Iraqi people and what I certainly perceive as a puppet Iraqi government. I was surprised just how awful I felt about our example (for a supposedly new Democratic Iraq) of an exercise in justice from our government. I second the thoughts that weak governments kill other leaders. Saddam should have been removed from Iraq and tried in the Hague in a long line of trials for many, many years. The world deserved a truth and reconciliation process. Probably the loudest cheers yesterday were inside Iran.
President Bush has removed our dignity while setting up a long line of laws (patriot act, S.3930, building large detention prisons, torture, surveillance, DHS, and on and on) We are no shining example and are compromised quite possibly beyond repair. If anyone here feels uncomfortable with how the situation is handled over there, well, prepare for that treatment over here. Getting rid of Bush/ Cheney is now just the tip of the ice berg.
I believe persons in positions of authority should be held to the highest standards (from police to presidents) not the other way around. We only have ideas of what the Iraqi people wanted (the process) and none of it would have been tasteful I am sure. We ruined the gift of removal of a dictator by prolonging his life in Iraq, by joining and contributing to their ensuing chaos.
I feel bad for the people over there and what will happen to people over here if we do not get a grip on our errors and correct them quickly.
Goodbye Saddam and (soon) George, you sure brought out the worst in a whole lot of people. May we who understand this never forget.
The General predicts GWB’s next move.
Christy,
Great essay, provocative thoughts. Though Saddam was a better than average argument in favor of capital punishment, so is W. I’d like to know how April Glaspie feels about Saddam’s execution…..
Ed*ard Teller @ 121
I believe she said that the U.S. takes no position in Saddam’s dispute with the noose.
Well,
to hear wingnuts tell it Bush won a great victory.
The real reason for going to Iraq has been revealed: To remove Saddam from power, capture him, and execute him.
For wingnuts, it’s once again Mission Accomplished…
Can we leave now? Not a chance….
What WMD? What ties to Al Qaeda? What imminnent threat? What nukes and yellow cake?
All that’s gone now. We only went to Iraq to get Saddam…ladies and gentlemen we got him…
Please excuse me, haven’t read the thread, but i wanted to post what i saw this evening on Germany’s biggest TV station (ZDF).
Following the evening news was a special on the hanging. i was shocked at the difference between what i’d seen and heard from the US media… how blatant this time the difference.
The most watched station in Germany showed and connected US support for his heinous crimes. Not only Rumsf*cks smarmy video visit, but specific mention of the weapon support, including gas. The special went on to say that when Saddam invaded Kuwait, he did it thinking he had US support. (How he could have thought that, despite April Glaspie, is beyond me.)
Without going into detail or offering direct translation, two things are immediately apparent. 1. Despite Germany moving in the direction of controlled media, the difference in reporting remains astounding to this observer. 2. Germany seems to have learned far more than the US the lessons from the Nurenburg War Crimes trials.
A third point, on which i often harp, is that amurkans, being immersed in high-level professional 24/7 propaganda, often are not aware of how deeply they are being misled… despite the internet. The irony of watching such deeper free media speech here in the land where goebbels honed his chops is astounding.
In England, the Independent published a scathing commentary by Robert Fisk, who remarked among other gems that it was US orchestrated, and the US failed to understand the significance of hanging him on the holy Eid, which marks forgiveness in the Arab world.
On CNN Int, there was even an interview with one of the exiled anti-Saddam leaders who expressed grave doubts about the speed and quality of the judgement and sentence.
So firepups, please remember that the rest of the world is not subjected to the ongoing, most-advanced-in-the-world propoganda in which you must swim. And that no matter how you hang it, this is a dark day for any vision of democracy in Amurka.
Dubai just decided to put 8% of its dollar holdings in Euros… do you think there’s a connection?
CrazyHorse,
thanks for the update from the sane world (!) You are so right about most ‘Murkins not realizing how deep is the media shite in which we swim. Any chance you can link to a video of some German newscast or another?
Oh, the irony…
Christy…AMAZING post…Thank you for the thought provoking commentary.
I am uncomfortable with Hussein’s death because the trial and the sentence seemed to designed to satisfy Bush’s needs rather than the needs of the Iraqi people. I can’t escape the creepy feeling that this entire war was unleashed because Bush wanted a chance to kick a little ass as president. And what’s a better target than an unarmed nation? I’m sure he thought it presented no risk to anyone.
Maybe that’s what Shock and Awe was all about – Awe at the power of the United States which would leave Iraq a devoted satellite state of ours.
~And now for the tin foil alert~
In 2000, when control of the Senate hung in the balance, Mel Carnahan unfortunately died. In 2002, Wellstone unfortunately died. Republicans controlled the Senate through 04 only because of those deaths. Anthrax was sent only to two Democrats. Now, in 06, with the balance of the Senate once again in Democratic hands, a Democratic senator suffers a stroke which leaves him incapacitated. The Senate is mortally perilous place for Democrats when it is barely in their control. I wonder if the hurry on Hussein’s death was a warning signal to not cross George Bush.
~it is now safe to remove your hat~
A bitter family saga is at an end
Let us assume:
1. That Saddam willfully committed crimes against humanity( of this there is little doubt)
2.That his trial was fair and just.(this is highly questionable0
3. That the court had the authority to sentence him to death.
4. His appeals were fairly heard.
assuming all this– the execution was still a grotesque travesty of justice. The way that the Iraqis and the Bushies hemmed and hawed, denying and then admitting that the sentence would be carried out, in the early dawn seemed to turn it into a tawdry stunt,
not unlike the Bush campaign , where
fake news and handpicked “volunteers” rule the day.
I had the distinct feeling that the administration thought they were being “cute” by the way they handled it– that they were playing us for suckers once again.
The Bush White House is truly stuck in 7th grade.
This was an assassination; a lynching. It did nothing but further degrade world opinion against both the US and the continued occupation. God knows how low it will eventually go.
The early reports on the international wires showed that not one head of state was willing to unequivocally endorse the hanging. It was a kangaroo court, and everyone knew it. Shameful and disgusting.
By making Saddam (or the alleged Saddam) a martyr, a deliberate provocation has been given to the Muslim world — as if it needed another one. Look for the chaos and killing to increase, and that’s just fine and dandy for Bushco, who never wanted peace in the first place.
Anyone feel a draft?
We killed possibly 1,000,000 Iraqis with sanctions. Where is the justice for all those nameless, faceless people?
Thanks Crazy Horse, for that media comparison. At least someone is getting it right.
I’m not.
There is no question in my mind that Saddam Hussein deserved to die.
There is, however, a very big question in my mind that we deserved to kill him.
That is how I feel about every execution.
That Saddam was deserving more than most of the ultimate penalty is without question.
That it was undertaken to look like it was done by a band of thugs on a holiday is more proof that Bush and his minions are believers in the Saddam doctrine of power themselves.
-GSD
If you are uncomfortable it shouldnt be because of the swiftness of the appeals process. Maybe you are accustomed to a years (if not decades) long process here in the US. But sentencing somebody to death and then playing with them for years (”We really will kill you …. No No, maybe we wont …. oh yes we will… but then again ….. on and on and on ……) is probably one of the most inhumane things I can think of. I am an opponent of the death penalty but I also believe that justice delayed is justice denied. And in this case I think what is bugging you is that a death sentence may well not be the right thing to do (which would be natural because it never is, because we humans can always make a mistake) – and if that is the case then the thing to do is not sentence people to death. The thing NOT to do is to mess with them for years after in a macabre death dance.
Seems to me that now we have become more like the Iraqi’s, rather than them becoming more like us.
We have fewer principals to stand behind. America is less than what it was.
A moment of silence for the United States of America.
Christy, I very much appreciate that you opened your soul for inspection with this post, and it’s a very gracious soul we found.
Others, like Boilerman, have said most of that which I could add to the discussion. I’ve said more at my blog, posting items from Josh Marshall and Robert Fisk that also add perspective.
This was not justice. It should be mentioned that al-Sadr’s renewed support for al-Maliki set the bar at the execution of Saddam. That being satisfied now, we might consider whether the stage is now set for a Shia strongman government to replace the hanged strongman. And whether the latter will prove less brutal than the former.
I might as well hope for some positive to emerge because otherwise, there is nothing advanced nor redeemed by this death. The insult delivered by the judge to the Sunnis is not a very hopeful sign. But I continue to hope al-Sadr proves more enlightened than the media portrayals, just as he’s already demonstrated he’s smarter than the neo-crims thought.
Two wrongs don’t make it right.
State sanctioned murder is murder nonetheless.
…and for all of Bush’s faux Chistianous “though shalt not kill” rings very hollow.
Besides all of the above, I believe it would have been far more prudent to just keep Saddam in jail. Now he is a Martyr and Americans and Iraqis will die because of his death.
Everything thing about this war is wrong…I can see no positives from it all.
Also, I believe it took a strong hand to keep the sectarian and Tribal sides in Iraq in check, and for all of Saddams evils he did keep Iraq in a certain status quo. For all his faults, Saddam H. was not stupid.
People may not agree with me here but I also believe that Saddam was following the orders of the United Nations, he was just doing it bit by bit, slowly, because he knew that if he capitulated in a short time (the way Bush wanted him too) there would be moves by the different sectors resulting in the violence we see today. He was also belligerent which didn’t help.
Bush just had to have his war. And having just come over from Attytood there are still many wingnuts who think Iraq is going well and that the disastor is just a whole lot of whoohaa from the left. I was simply stunned at the ignorance.
I am somewhat bothered by the persistent labeling, in both the main stream media and the blogs, of the leaders of foreign nations as madmen. Democracy, human rights and other modern values are relatively new, coming in the last several centuries. Before the modern age, autocratic single person rule, backed by state terror, was to some degree the norm. Hitler, Stalin and Saddam had modern tools to extend variations of traditional power politics further than a Genghis Kahn or the Inquisition. Still, there is a logic to the old values. In a land divided, to some degree state terror is the sole road to what passes for ‘peace’ in a pre-modern culture.
While the current Iraqi government cannot protect the families of their police officers, the Iraqi state cannot stand. It is not lack of training that makes American units so much more effective than Iraqi units. It is terror. The American’s wives and families are safely across wide seas. An Iraqi police officer, prevented from answering terror with terror by an occupation army with modern morals, cannot win a war of terror against gloves off terrorists. Thus, the sectarian militias. If the official government is being prevented from using Saddam style state terror to win a conflict of terror, unofficial dotted line proxy groups with a thin sheen of plausible deniability have to fight the war instead. That this undercuts the authority and integrity of the official government is problematic, but perhaps inevitable.
Mind you, autocratic states ruling by terror are obsolete. If democracy cannot force the government to follow the will of the people, it can often vote the most corrupt people out. In head to head direct competition, western democracies have been defeating autocratic regimes badly in both martial and economic contests. I am no fan at all of autocratic methods and values.
But one must expect failure the verst several times an autocratic state attempts modern democratic values. How many republics has France had? How easy was it for Hitler to suppress Germany’s democracy? When Britain was developing the modern form of democracy, how many civil wars and beheaded kings did they have to work through?
Modern values are not to be taken for granted. The difference between modern political thought and traditional government is huge. Trust in the processes is hard to come by.
But those who do not share our values are not mad. They are not insane. If they are evil, they are evil by a modern standard which has no reality in their world. One could wish this were not so. One can wait for a day which is apt to come decades or centuries hence when it will be so. I expect in time Islamist government to fade as Royalist, Fascist and Communist government has already faded.
But do not underestimate the degree to which a people will cling to their existing culture. In blog space, one should be very aware how firmly the American Red values can take hold, how much it takes to shift an individual out of their firmly established perspective on how the world works and ought to work. Autocratic values are equally firm. Millennia of the world working in the old way does not make them inclined to easily release the old way. They know how ugly the world is. They don’t know that it can be different. Indeed, Allah demands that it not be different.
It is proper in Blue America to shun and recoil from the noose. Fine. Shudder and shy, preach and proclaim your virtue. Just don’t think your logic is the only logic one needs to understand. Iraq is not going to embrace Blue American values, or Red American values. That hope is forlorn. That opportunity has been botched. The logic that is going to triumph will be Saddam’s logic. We can break his neck, but another is apt to rise in his image.