
By now you have no doubt heard or read that Saddam Hussein was hanged in Iraq. The death sentence that had been passed from the courts during his first trial was carried out, after one last appeal for a retrial on legal grounds of inappropriate conduct and/or incorrect application of law and evidence or request for clemency was rejected.
I am struggling, frankly, to decide how I feel about all of this in the wake of the swiftness of the appeals process. To be honest, Saddam Hussein was a murderous tyrant who terrorized the population of Iraq, including members of his own family, for reasons that only he in his madness and anger understood. People were brutally tortured and murdered at his command, often for very minor offenses. He was a brute and an altogether evil human being. Having spent time as a prosecutor, and as defense counsel, for folks who fit part of that description, and knowing that there are some people who are not fit to walk freely among the rest of us -- truly, and honestly, not fit nor safe under just about any circumstances -- I can see the argument for the death penalty for someone such as Hussein.
But I cannot be comfortable with it. For some reason, no matter that I know what horrors he committed over the years, this does not sit well with me.
Perhaps it is the rush of the appeals process. Perhaps it is the mess of a trial, the fundamental questions as to whether true due process could ever have been achieved under circumstances such as this. Perhaps it is the whispers of the heavy thumb on the scales of justice that the US is said to have weighed in with in this particular case, or the questions of the verdict being assured from the start. Certainly there is more than enough evidence out there that Saddam Hussein ought to have been convicted, but to do so through a trial where the circumstances were not all open, above-board and as beyond reproach as anyone could ever muster makes me uncomfortable, to say the least.
Perhaps the issue for me is the seeming lack of any empathy, even for a monster like Saddam Hussein. I have asked for other human beings to be sent to the penitentiary for the rest of their long lives, sometimes very young people facing a very long life in a dank hole with barely a window and a whole lot of violence. These were people who deserved such punishment in my evaluation of the evidence and their potential to do even more harm were they free. But I never, ever did so lightly, and never without some pang of remorse for having to do so -- no matter the long string of evil that the person had done.
To be involved in such a case is personally painful. On the one side, you see the family of the victim(s) involved, their pain, their anguish, their longstanding anger at the person who committed the crime against their loved one. On the other, you see that same pain and anguish, but for different reasons entirely, in the family of the accused -- trying to make sense of the violence and horror that their loved one has committed, and never quite being able to reconcile the child they remember and the evil that they have become.
It is a horrible moment, that first time that the families meet eyes in the courtroom, the tension, the anger, the pain, all comingling in the brief glances or the avid stares; the accused's family fighting between the pity and horror of what has been done, and the wretched anguish of the punishment that may be meted out -- and the desperate, clinging hope that whatever the evidence, that it will not be found to point toward their child, their brother, their friend. The family of the victim simply stares back, willing some answer as to how the seemingly decent folks across the room could have raised such a monster, and desperately wishing that their lost loved one would come walking through the courtroom door once more, but knowing in their heart of hearts that it will never be.
It is never easy, nor should it be. Mercifully, for my conscience, WV is not a death penalty state. I think that may have been more than I could have wrestled with, to be completely honest about it, the fear always being that you get it wrong -- somehow, in all of the evidence evaluation and all of the days of investigation and review, that you still, somehow get it wrong. To do so in a case where someone was killed in the name of justice would have been unbearable.
I have always understood the celebration at a guilty verdict and tough sentence on the part of the victims' family. There is a need for some form of closure, some retribution, something to happen to the person who has taken the life of the person that you loved with all your heart. It's human nature. And it is human nature as the person requesting that verdict to feel pride in achieving that result.
But I never did so in any case without a comperable feeling of loss -- that this person, no matter how horrible, how evil, how heinous their crime, no matter the hours that I put in on autopsy photos and tracking back their criminal history, no matter how well deserved and necessary, that this broken, lost soul was to be locked away. It should never be easy. (Of course, I say this from the comfort of my home state, having never had to face the murderous evil of a serial killer through the course of my career, and I imagine that may have been a different level of evaluation on my part, had that occurred.)
Perhaps it was because, in the digging and investigation, you so often got a glimpse of the horrible childhood, the physical and emotional abuse, the abandonment, the stark realities of life that came crashing in on that person at such a young age -- which was never, ever an excuse for the conduct -- EVER -- but did explain, on some level, why the person was so irretrievably broken in those occasions where long-term incarceration seemed the only and best answer for the rest of society's benefit.
As I read through the news articles on the Saddam hanging this morning, it was that lack of human compassion, even on any level, that struck me as somehow unseemly, as undignified and as uncivilized, barbaric even. That feeling of someone being thrown to the lions, no matter how deserving of punishment, while the masses look on and cheer at the tearing from limb to limb -- the disgusting spectacle of bread and circuses, set to a theme song and a hasty graphics design on the 24-hour news networks.
And then I found the article that John Burns did for the NYTimes, and I understood what it was that I had been looking for -- some sense of the whole of the story, not just its disperate parts. Burns has been covering the Middle East and, in particular, Iraq, for over a decade now, and his pieces never fail to illuminate some aspect of the culture or the people involved in a way that I had not thought of before. I love his prose, his eloquent writing voice but, in this article in particular, it is the balance of all the disperate threads into a bumpy, ill-weaved whole that finally brings together the story for me.
It is this portion that really brings the dichotomy of the situation into full, stark view:
...From 20 feet away on an observer’s bench, seated beside the late Peter Jennings of ABC News and Christiane Amanpour of CNN, I caught my first glimpse of the man who had become in my years of visiting Iraq under his rule, a figure of mythic brutality, a man so feared that the mention of his name would set the hard, unsmiling men assigned to visiting reporters as “minders” to shaking with fear, and on one occasion, in my experience, to abject weeping.But this was not that Saddam. The man who stepped into the court had the demeanor of a condemned man, his eyes swiveling left, then right, his gait unsteady, his curious, lisping voice raised to a tenor that resonated fear. Quickly, he fixed his gaze on the handful of foreigners in the court, and I had my own moment of anxiety when it came to my mind that he was intent on remembering the faces of the non-Iraqis that were there to witness his humiliation, perhaps to get word through to his lawyers, and then on to the insurgents, that we were to be punished for our intrusion. It was only later, after I learned what he had been told before being taken from his cell to the court, that I understood that our presence meant something else to him entirely, that with foreigners present, he was not going to be summarily hanged or shot.
THE Americans who were his jailers in the first days after his capture — aboard an American aircraft carrier and then at a converted detention center known as Camp Cropper at the edge of Baghdad’s airport — had chosen, on that summer day, to give Saddam a taste of the fear that he exhilarated in imposing on others. All he was told was that he was being taken “to face Iraqi justice.” Small wonder, as the architect of a quarter-century of repression, that he should fear that he was about to suffer the torture and grisly death that he had inflicted on so many others.
At that instant, I felt sorry for him, as a man in distress and perhaps, too, as a once almighty figure reduced to ignominy. But the expression of that pity to the Iraqis present marked the distance between those, like me, who had taken the measure of Saddam’s terror as a visitor, shielded from the worst of it by the minders and the claustrophobic world of closely guarded hotels and supervised Information Ministry trips, and Iraqis who lived through it with no shield.
That I could feel pity for him struck the Iraqis with whom I talked as evidence of a profound moral corruption. I came to understand how a Westerner used to the civilities of democracy and due process — even a reporter who thought he grasped the depths of Saddam’s depravity — fell short of the Iraqis’ sense, forged by years of brutality, of the power of his unmitigated evil....
The process of demanding someone's incarceration or, in this case, death by hanging, can be such a matter of perspective. Having stood with my feet on both sides of the legal aisle -- as criminal defense counsel for a number of years and then as an assistant prosecutor, how you view the defendant can be very different on either side of the case -- although not always, despite having to do your job with vigor as defense counsel regardless.
We have yet to discover what the long-term results of such a death will be. Perhaps they will be nothing, Saddam having been captured and his trial and its results having been a foregone conclusion in a lot of minds for quite a while now, although I suspect his hanging will have been a jolt to a number of his Ba'athist supporters who probably still suspected that Saddam Hussein would die of old age in prison rather than the government taking the chance of his hanging inciting more violence in an already war ravaged nation.
In my mind, though, the greater question is how this particular trial, this particular action and death will affect the long-term view of the United States as a true voice for justice and human rights, for which we have long been such an able voice in the international forum. If there are so many questions being asked about the conduct of the trial, the swiftness of the appeals process, the custody of the person being hanged, and on and on, will these questions ever be truly answered. And once they are, will they leave us in a good light.
I know that the argument should and will be made that this was an Iraqi trial, by a sovereign Iraqi government and judiciary system. But the trial and judges and attorneys, all of the person involved being constantly under threat of death throughout, were up to their robes in American judicial advisors. And, as such, I believe it was incumbent upon those advisors and our government to ensure the fairness of the proceedings to the fullest extent possible. The question is -- did we do so?
And that answer, I am afraid, is the one that we will not get for a long time to come. And in the waiting for it to even be asked is the further consequence to our reputation as the guardians of justice. The search for any sort of justice does not come in the easy cases, the ones where you have a confession and a crime so heinous that the request for punishment comes as a relief to everyone involved, including the remorseful defendant.
The search for justice comes in the little actions, the difficult choices, the close cases, the ones where you have a difficult defendant who has committed heinous atrocities, and you still have the character and the moral standing to treat that person with the same standing as anyone else would be given under the rule of law. Was that the case for Saddam Hussein? History will long-from-now look back on this and judge it, kindly or harshly, but in the meantime, the world looks on and we will know their judgment soon enough. But it is my own doubts about our role in this process that are causing me to ask questions -- and I am not certain that the answers will bring me much, if any, comfort.
But, search we all must, because that is our duty as citizens of this nation. For it is in the accounting of this and every other case that the true search for justices lies. Especially where those answers seem as difficult as these may be.
(Artwork is one in a series by Edwin Abbey.)
Login Here
Share This
Spotlight
Fitz!
Anyone here going to argue for Saddam’s hanging?
I remember the old John Wayne movie “Chisum” where the character playing the now famous lawman Pat Garrett told Billy the Kid that around Billy there was always that “smell of death”.
Giveb Bush’s propensity for executing prisoners in Texas while Governor, or his execution of brave American troops engaged in his personal vengetta, and now the death of Hussein, every time I see or hear Bush, I can’t help but think about his “smell of death”.
Noonan @ 2
I still think it depends whether you accept that the death penalty is a just punishment or not. How can anyone who is morally against the death penalty applaud this hanging?
The dubious justice of hanging Saddam aside, this execution rules out his blowing the whistle on the totality of his dealings with U.S. administrations over the years.
We would have been better served if, instead of hanging the jerk, he had been subjected to a lengthy public debriefing, a chance for him to “tell all”…
But that would have upset too many apple carts, now wouldn’t it have?
Better with these inconvenient dictators who were once on cozier terms with our own deciderers to silence them and slam the door shut on inconvenient and embarrassing revelations.
typo - graf beginning with “In my mind” - for justice aNd human rights
[Mod Note; thanks for the heads up. Refresh and it should be corrected]
poztron @ 5
Bingo. hammer, meet nail…
christof @ 4
On the question of “just punishment,” I think it is important to first establish whether the death penalty is any kind of “punishment” at all. In behavioral psychology, “punishment” is the application of an undesired stimulus toward the goal of modifying the subject’s behavior. By that definition, killing can never be punishment–it does not and cannot elicit a behavioral modification.
There is something so pathetic about this video, including the way Saddam almost has dignity at the end.
The rushed necktie party with all the trimmings: black masks, a giant noose, executioners that looked like hired NYC taxi drivers…all put an end to further trialsespecially for the Kurdish Massacre in which it would have been proper to call Bush Sr. and Rummy to the stand to explain themselves.
This was badly played and will come back to haunt us.
christof @ 4
Amen…..
Then there is the whole timing of this event. I cannot forget that BushCo still controls things and events. John Dean told me that BushCo … everything they do, say, decide and develop is 100% politics first. No thought of what is good for the Country, the World, or the American People. It is Politics.
So what is the politics of Saddams death?
Take the media spotlight off the Ford - Woodward interview?
Take the spotlight off the developing buildup of troops and navy in the middle east?
Is it to hide the eventual start of WWIII?
Or some other crime?
As I stated downstairs…. I am sick of heart today with the execution. I have lived in the near middle east, I experienced life and events that occured in Iran/Iraq and other countries. I guess as a person, I have evolved from the eye for an eye to What you do to the least of us.
It was no accident that the first (and only completed) trial for Saddam covered an incident in Dujail which had no U.S. involvement, either directly or indirectly.
poztron @ 5
Or, how about having him tried at The Hague as a chance for all of the above, plus the added bonus of providing the international community to give more legitimacy to the Iraqi government?
Thank you so much for this post, Christy. I think this will be one of the few places where the WHOLE of this will have any chance of being thoroughly discussed, thoughtfully.
Perhaps this is an area where the idea of “justice” as in “Middle East” and “West” will come face to face.
What strikes me is the history of the use of the death penalty in Saudi Arabia (for one example) against women, by the sword IIRC, (for indiscretion that seems incredibly minor to me/maybe us) by hanging (in Saddam’s case, and others in Iraq), the scale of the crimes (in his case, by comparison), and our use of it–let’s just use TX and FL as some examples.
Anyway, I imagine we could just compare and contrast. The use of the death penalty in the Middle East seems a bit capricious perhaps.
But we have overlaid our own sorry aspect on this, and while there is celebration in Iraq by many, I really cannot celebrate this. At the same time, perhaps even in kangaroo version, Saddam got better than some poor women in Saudi Arabia, with his trial.
One thing I have found interesting is his final missive, “don’t hate the occupiers.”
Again, thanks for this.
katymine @ 10
I doubt that it was timed in that way. I suspect that they just said” “get it over with before the end of the year.” That way they can look back on 2006 and say, “well, at least we brought Saddam to justice!”
I expect to see that bragging point brought up by Georgie very shortly.
Christy - As a lawyer, I think I can help with your dilemma. My feelings were as ambivalent as yours; certainly he was a tyrant who, if anyone deserved the death penalty, fit the criteria, and yet…
I think that we are offended, not by the punishment, not even by the process, but by the LABELING of the process as a ‘fair trial’ or as ‘due process’. As members of the bar, we were taught how the law is the servant of the people and the great equalizer. Here, the law was perverted in a Queen of Hearts manner (Sentence first, verdict afterward), which I think, even if it was ADMITTED that it was a perversion, I might not have felt so, well, soiled about.
Instead, we’ve heard solemn pronouncements about how fair the process was and about how the ‘law worked’.
In our hearts, we, as members of the legal fraternity know damn well that ‘the law’ had precious little to do with it. I can only speak for myself on this, but I think I would have felt better if he had been shot in the spider hole.
This is a true test of one’s conviction opposing capital punishment. For me, this was wrong. The process was wrong, and the purpose of killing Saddam was not for anything noble like justice. As Steve Gilliard pointed out, weak governments kill their enemies.
I can’t help but think the rush to the gallows is tied up in Bush the Lesser’s death fetish combined with his understanding that in a few days, when the Democratically-led 110 Congress convenes, his time as dictator of the United States comes to end. He needed to kill Saddam before he was prevented from doing it, and to prove to himself and/or the world that he’s tougher than his father.
The trial not being held in a neutral place like the Hague is a travesty of international law. The sudden, secretive execution in the middle of the night was more like a murder than carrying out any form of justice.
Our country is being led by cowards.
josh marshall says it well:
Saddam is dead. All of this navel gazing is too late.
Saddam was a monster, but I pose this uncomfortable question; is Iraq better off now thsn it was under this horrible, and violent man? Think clearly here. Read the news accounts, and see 2998 of our sons and daughters are dead due to the lies, incompetence, and delusions of old men refighting a past war?
Saddam was terrible. But he was an old tyrant of nearly 70 years of age. He deserved to be at least locked away. But this wasn’t about justice, or fair play or morality, or ‘doing the right thing.’ Saddam’s execution was about revenge. It was a rub out of a gangster by other gangsters. All of the legalistic cogitations this side of Des Moines will not make this rub out any more than the silencing it was.
If this were about justice Christy, Saddam would have been taken to the Hague….but justice wasn’t the objective here. Saddam’s silence was.
Whatever the merits of the death penalty in the case of Saddam (which merits could also be argued for the war crimes committed by our current war criminal in chief), the reason for the rush to execute him were, as chance would have it, properly pointed out today by a country that wanted him dead long ago: Iran. Those reasons were simply that the Iraqi/U.S. puppet government rushed the sentence being carried out so that the U.S. would be spared a dead-row Saddam spilling the details of how he for many decades, beginning with his taking power, was a pawn and agent of the U.S.! Read the history: Failed States by Noam Chomsky has a good summary of the appalling hypocrisy of U.S. policy, including the history of Iraq. Saddam was, like Noriega, for many years a C.I.A. asset; and therefore necessarily had to be silenced once he no longer was an asset to U.S. national interests, as determined by the U.S. ruling elite…
Written like a true attorney, Christy. Examine the details and fundamentals of the trial to determine if justice was served.
I share in the philosophy of the means justify the results, and feel this deserves examination.
President Carter was the one who placed human rights front and center in American foreign policy and has been roundly ridiculed by the conservatives.
Further examinations require one to seek the the conception of of this trial–why did it occur. The tragic and brutal treatment of Iraqi’s by this sadistic dictator are the reasons cited at first blush.
It was the war that gave birth to this trial, and the reasons for it have all fell by the wayside, save one.
“He tried to kill my Pa.” Farticus
Dan Rather
Ann Richards
Just another check on Jr’s. hit parade.
I don’t think the jury is out on America’s position on human rights 2.0
Darfur?
Or closer to home:
Katrina.
wonderful post, Christy.
Sometimes I wonder if there shouldn’t be some requirement that the attorneys on either side of major felony cases have experience on both sides of the aisle. Impractical, I know. I, for one, would be disqualified, because I just don’t know how I could ever prosecute. Present company very much excepted, the prosecutorial mindset, at least around here, has too much of a God-complex for me.
But I love that you have been on both sides, and it always heartens me to read your opinions, forged after viewing the crim justice system from both sides. Not to mention the way in which you describe yur thought process, and the care and genuine concern, for all involved, which always comes through.
Wish there were more like you.
God loves us, I hope. All of us.
poztron @
5
exactly. same with Timothy McVey
Christy.
I left a thingie EPU’d downstairs (PullUpaChair #199).
Not at all relevant here, but would appreciate your considering suggestion therein for future subject matter. Thanks.
Thank for this post, Christy. You’ve expressed much of what I’m feeling, and I don’t even have your own experience in prosecution.
There is nothing that will make whole or right the damages Saddam perpetuated on the people of Iraq; this is why I feel not only disgust but dissatisfaction with the death penalty for any criminal. Yet I cannot help but feel that forcing him to work with his bare hands to improve the lives of others would have been far more just. Sentencing him to feeding the some of the poor of his country by obligatory hard labor in a prison garden would have been much closer to justice.
His corpse provides for no one.
And then there’s the complicity of others; was the timing of Rumsfeld’s stepping down as SecDef related to this debacle? What will the former SecDef do to make whole the people that he has damaged — if ever?
dratty @ 15
Agreed. Had this been the result after a trial by, and in front of, impartial parties (the Hague, as someone else said) then I could say, “Justice has been done.”
Instead, I’m just left with a queasy feeling, because - just like the deaths of almost 3000 troops - his death will change nothing in Iraq.
the reason you aren’t comfortable with it is the very people that brought him to trial are the people that brought him to power, sold him the tools of his depravity, protected his power, held him in power, and condoned his actions while he was committing them
saddam didn’t become an enemy of America until he threatened to trade his oil in euros
you will be satisfied when his accomplices are brought to the same justice saddam earned
please to watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r42oejmpkgw
I don’t know if anyone has dealt with this idea in the thread, but my first shuddering thot, after being moderately surprised execution could be scheduled so soon after conviction, was that surely the faceshooter must be jealous of their efficient system of “justice”.
We MUST keep up the fight to restore justice within our own country…
Thank heaven for FDL.
See a sarcastic visual of George Bush playing a round of “Hangman”…here:
www.thoughttheater.com
dratty at 15 — I think, perhaps, you have hit on much of my discomfort there. Thanks. It’s the same discomfort I feel each and every time some botched criminal proceeding gets splashed all over the news — knowing that getting to the real truth or justice of the case is likely lost in the mess that has been made of the case, and what a shame that is for everyone involved. What a mess.
Saddam is dead, let it go.
unclemike @ 31
No, goddamnit. I most certainly shall not.
surely the faceshooter must be jealous at their efficient system of “justice”.
Actually, it occurs to me that this example of “international justice” might just scare the shit of Mr. Cheney.
Arrogant head of state, responsible for tens of thousands of Iraqii deaths. Mislead world about Iraqii WMDs.
Hague would have been better, IMHO.
puppethead @
16
Let me associate myself with these remarks.
We have to keep reminding ourselves what a beast Saddam was, don’t we? No one has a fair trial whose lawyers are in fear of being killed or of their families being killed.
It was a show trial. We all know it. Whatever Saddam Hussein was, the trial and execution are about the triers and executioners.
I feel guilty about the entertainment that this act has created.
Did I watch the TV like a crack addict waiting for an announcement where to get a free month’s supply? Of course…
Did I log on this morning while my wife and sick kid were in the living room enjoying a pleasent chat? Of course…
I want to let it go. But the compulsion to read just a little bit more, to watch just a little bit more has become tiresome, it not worrisome.
And what have we accomplished? Justice? Revenge? Politics?
Now I’m going to seek balm in the mundane: shop for groceries; put food in my house; do some laundry; hug my feverish daughter.
Thanks for listening.
typo
paragraph 12, line 4 “thrown”
[Mod Note; nice catch. Refresh and it should be corrected.]
Looks like this latest “milestone” on the road to Iraqi democracy is already paying dividends.
Astounding. 68-plus die in a day, and the AP can blithely report that this was “not unusually high.” Kinda makes you want to take a journalist out for a drink and then puke on him, doesn’t it?
tryggth @ 34
Do you mean Bush or Saddam? And should it scare me that I find it necessary to ask?
Wonderful post Christy.
Thank you for putting us inside a fine attorney’s mind. Takes one doozie of a writer to do that so well. ;->
And…
Now we don’t have to worry about Saddam chirping from the peanut gallery during the congressional investigations due to start. So that’s a plus….
unclemike @ 31
Oh, sure, Unca Mike, yep, we’ll let it go. Everything’s better now, the war is won, it’s the Big Iraq Candy Mountain.
Offing Saddam Hussein before security was established is worth an extra 200,000 dead people in 2007. Or to put that into terms you can understand: it helps push the Iraqi conflict into a wider Mid-East conflict, which will make your gasoline more expensive. And that’s a real bitch, idn’t it?
EvilDP, left a question for you under the chair.
perris @ 27
dollars, euros, Iraq
off topic, but you should get an image security
code to prevent the annoying automatic responses from twolf1
Earlier this morning on MSNBC I heard a Northwestern University law professor make a point that resonated. The speed of execution meant that Saddam would not testify in any other trials against himself/his cohorts. The professor noted that Saddam’s own testimony revealed information no one had previously known.
Such potential information is now lost to judgment and history in other trials such as re the marsh Arabs.
Mr. Sunshine’s point was more direct: history is filled with tyrants and their crimes and whether/how they are brought to justice. But who will tell us now just how they drained those marshes?
I see the whole thing as more short-term thinking by Bushco…seemingly all they are capable of, whether it’s war or economy or environment. And let history and generations to come be damned.
John Rice @ 45
Off topic, but if you don’t like it, don’t read it.
Not to belittle the ‘labeling’ problem that I alluded to upthread, but I think that perhaps this hypothetical fact pattern might be in order:
It’s December of 2004 and the war has been fought to a standstill. The coalition has taken most of Iraq, including Baghdad, however Saddam has fled and successfully set up a government in Al-Anbar province. While inspecting troops on the frontline at the border of AlAnbar, Gen. Abazaid’s motorcade is ambushed and he is captured.
He is put on trial, WITH THE SAME RIGHTS AND PROCEDURES AS SADDAM HAD and with the same result. He is sentenced to death. His appeal is quickly denied and the sentencing is carried out WITH THE SAME RESPECT, AND WITH THE SAME MEDIA COVERAGE BY IRAQI STATIONS AS TODAY’S.
Anyone wish to venture a guess as to how many media pundits would be using the words ‘fair trial’, ‘due process’ or ‘justice’?
Mommybrain @ 43
For some damn fool reason, my browser won’t let me open that thread right now. I’ll check it again later.
John Rice @ 45
Here we go again - over-educated readers thinking our traditions are silly. Or worse.
Mommybrain @ 50
is he jealous?
John Rice @
45
eh?
Mommybrain @ 50
Exactly. And now, he’ll wonder why his whiny nitpicking meets with hostility.
Leisure Guy!!!
God! This is exactly what the conservatives don’t get about us and sometimes, frankly, it confuses the hell out of me too. No, I do not support Bush’s war in Iraq (I don’t support anything that mongrel frat boy has done) and yes, I think it has been a colossal waste of blood and treasure BUT Saddam Hussein got what was coming to him. Period!
Cripes! If thousands of Iraqis, who are daily suffering through the agonizing hell that we have inflicted upon them, can take to the streets and celebrate the justified execution of this monster, what f88king right do we have, from the comfort of our homes, to kvetch and moan about due process and the morality (or lack thereof) of capitol punishment?
twolf1 @ 52
He doesn’t like the first-post tradition. Screw him.
I am sure the Shiites and Kurds are happy. The American have probably come to the realization that his death is not worth the human life and and treasure it has required. It reminds me of Howard Dean saying we weren’t any safer after he was captured. The media collectively rolled their eyes when they reported him saying it. The country was still full of that landing on the carrier. How far we have come and how much wiser we are on the day of Saddam’s death.
twolf1 @ 52
just tell ‘im yer annoyed, & so’r yer friends…
Okay gang, let’s not pile on, shall we? Opinions expressed on both sides, so please let it go now. Thanks.
Not to belabor the ‘labeling’ problem that I alluded to upthread, but I think that perhaps this hypothetical fact pattern might be in order:
It’s December of 2004 and the war has been fought to a standstill. The coalition has taken most of Iraq, including Baghdad, however Saddam has fled and successfully set up a government in Al-Anbar province. While inspecting troops on the frontline at the border of AlAnbar, Gen. Abazaid’s motorcade is ambushed and he is captured.
He is put on trial, WITH THE SAME RIGHTS AND PROCEDURES AS SADDAM HAD and with the same result. He is sentenced to death. His appeal is quickly denied and the sentencing is carried out WITH THE SAME RESPECT, AND WITH THE SAME MEDIA COVERAGE BY IRAQI STATIONS AS TODAY’S.
Anyone wish to venture a guess as to how many media pundits would be using the words ‘fair trial’, ‘due process’ or ‘justice’?
twolf1 @ 54
LOL - (the veterans will understand)
OT: Guess this ends the myth that morale is high and the troops are gung-ho for Bush, eh?
goodgawd whose the one who had problems wid a puppy chasin’ the kitties? heh
Christy Hardin Smith @ 59
aw gee whiz mom. awright, sigh.
When the chrages were first announced against Saddam, the reporters covering it live were all stunned. Dujail? What, where? No one had heard of it.
The extremely fast time from verdict to carrying out the sentence was not surprising, considering how many of Iraq’s new laws were written by Bush cronies. Boilerman10 has it right.
He had to be gone before too many questions were asked about the Reagan-Bush era Iraq related activities.
Thank you, Christy, for saying what no one on tv will. Even this case isn’t as cut and dried as they claim. There’s a reason abused kids grow up to be criminals, and Saddam was abused as a child. You’re absolutely right that it’s not an excuse, but there are reasons. He lived a miserable life and died a miserable death.
be sure to check riverbend
Saddam’s is but one more in the train wreck that is the US invasion of Iraq.
I look at it the same as any murderous madman killed along with hundreds of thousands of innocents.
Nothing to mourn, but hardly cause for celebration.
Adults in charge!
Now!
dratty @ 60
Thanks, Dratty, that was really good.
Rob at 55 — The Iraqi portion of all of this isn’t something I question because, frankly, that is their place. But our involvement in this — in the judicial process, in the pressure of folks involved in that process, etc. — that is for all of us who live in this nation to look at and ask for some measure of accountability that our conduct was just and honorable. It is what the rule of law and checks and balances are for, after all, to ensure that mistakes, if any were made, are not repeated in the future. That is what a civilized nation does. Otherwise, we should just all sign up for a tin can dictatorship and be done with it and I, for one, am not putting my name on that list, thank you very much.
Well, it does seem to have American fingerprints all over it. The trial was a conclusion looking for evidence. The timing is suspect. The lack of consideration for appeal seemed hasty. What does it matter if Saddam was guilty, if the system entrusted with proving so is questionable? That feeling in the pit of your stomach that something dirty and wrong took place is there for a reason. The man may have been guilty as charged, but the process would allow for only one outcome. It is no longer food and circuses. It is unabashedly blood and circuses. The voice intoning the imminent death by hanging of Saddam Hussein on CNN sounded like the introduction to the latest horror flick. The MSM all but salivated. So if we all feel a little dirty and ashamed, there is good reason for it. Saddam may have received justice, but it was not necessarily by the book. The conclusion and sentence preceded the mock trial.
Summarize:
War bad–Saddam terrible–good riddance, with reservations.
When the choice is between two wrongs, which is the least wrong?
My feeling is as bad as Saddam was for Iraq, Bush is 1000 times worse–for them and for us and for the entire Middle-East, if not the world.
All is left is an experiential learning process, complete with bright shiny hearings to determine how we arrived at this place of horror and prosecutions for all those who misled and profitted from it.
No pain, no gain (ala Vietnam)
I don’t know if anyone else here reads OpinioJuris, but they had a post about the timing of the execution and the implications for Shia and Sunni. The article also links to a great piece by Juan Cole @ Salon.
Perspective:
The US invaded a sovereign nation in a pre-emptive strike against a fictitious threat.
All other actions taken in our name pale in comparison.
The only question is whether an international court will have the cojones to indict and how much it will ultimately cost our nation.
Rob @ 55
I think it might be the complete withdrawal of the United States from international law and international civility. It might be about due process. It might be about breaking apart a country that was not ours to break. It might be about the liars, felons and war criminals in our own government.
TheOtherWA @ 64
Nobody wanted to hear what Saddam had to say about cozy past business relationships. The US was the ringleader, but no other nations seemed to object to Saddam’s speedy kangaroo court trial and execution. Nobody wanted to air their dirty laundry so Saddam got the noose. Its disgusting and demonstrates how far we’ve come in two thousand years. We are still barbarians.
Adie @
63
They’re all sleeping like little angels now. :) I’m not, unfortunately.
btw, just a heads up gang — Howie will be here at his usual Blue America time today to kick off the next round of candidate discussion. We’re starting early for 2008 so we’ll have plenty of time this round. :)
dratty @ 15
Yes, exactly. Or if he had been dragged out and shot with only the thinnest excuse of a trial, like Ceausescu, it wouldn’t have been so offensive. And we have yet to be treated to endless declarations that he has been “brought to justice” by someone who believes that “justice” is the execution, not the trial.
EDP @ 38..It looks as if “another milestone” will be reached. 3000 US service-members will be killed before 2007. 2998 as of today.
OT but if you want to know where the troops are coming from for the “endless surge” go to Gilliard, “Not Again”
http://www.stevegilliard.blogs.....again.html
Glenn on the dichotomy of a fair trial for Saddam and our policy of internment for US citizens.
my global conscious @
170
MyGlobal Conscious - if you are still here, click on my name.
I come at this from the perspective that we have got to move from a paradigm where we control other people in order to have peace and serenity. The truth is that we each have peace if we want it. We have that power within our brains and do not need to control (or kill) to stop others from interupting our serenity. We can instead focus on our own sense of peace and create it. That is the power of the human brain and the message that Jesus taught us in his death. If I am jumping out of a burning building I have a choice about how I spend my last few moments. My pledge is to peace. And of killing another human being for the sake of some abject idea about how the world “should” be does not bring me peace because I am left with the inenviable position of not being “sure” it was okay to kill. I am painfully aware of the need to justify and this destroys my serenity. It is not my job to kill. It is my job to maintain my sanity no matter what the world is doing.
Wonderful post, Christy, and as usual at FDL, wonderful comments, like this one:
boilerman10 @
18
It’s easy to notice when something is present. It’s harder to notice an absence, until it’s pointed out. What this post and this comment points out to me — and correct me if I’m wrong — is that from the moment of his arrest to the moment of his death, Saddam was never once allowed to talk to a reporter, or to anyone who might have repeated his words without mediation by authorities, Iraqi or American.
Seen in that light, the speed with which this happened looks very bad indeed.
I believe that we are appalled for several reasons. The world knows that W. got off on the hanging of Saddam. The world knows that W. is just a evil. And since we all knew Saddam through the media it was like a distant neighbor had been hanged. It was personal.
The Search for Justice is the admirable title of this text. Evidently the search involves Saddam and the author, after going in to bizarre and baroque somersaults to make every reader understand that she is firmly convinced that Saddam was just as evil and nasty as evil and nasty can be, eventually expresses unease about the recent execution (= judicial murder = murder) of the brute. I stopped reading at this point so I’ll never know if she eventually gets around to musing about the usefulness and moral acceptability of murder by the state. You see, if Saddam had not been murdered, no one would feel unease and the rest of his acts could have been clarified and exposed to the world in the years to come. But, now, the beast had to be slaughtered, almost like the ritual sacrifice to which Saddam compared himself. The death penalty is a nasty relic of the past. I have the impression that nothing more strongly separates Europe and the other countries which have abolished judicial murder from the U.S. than this issue. Why are the good people of the U.S. so convinced of its usefulness and moral acceptabilty? They have a Leader with autocratic tendencies who seems to have reveled in his duty to have criminals executed while he was governor of Texas. Saddam has been silenced. Tariq Aziz has recently said he is ready to testify in trials and will spill the beans about some people in and outside Iraq. Can anyone imagine who he’s talking about? Maybe it’s time for another execution! Saddam could have been locked up in the Hague until another day and we would eventually have learned about a good chunk of Iraqi and western history during the second half of the 20th century: I’d call that Tales of the U.S. Empire.
Quentin at 85 — Well, if you hadn’t been so convinced of your superiority to the author on moral grounds and simply read a bit further, then you’d see that I, too, have difficulty with the death penalty. But, alas, you had to post prior to actually finishing the read.