Let’s play with THAT a minute:

You mean the “rubble” that makes the twin-towers rubble look like something you could pick up in a goddamn dustpan?

THAT fucking rubble!!!????

(No angry face big enough…)

I don’t read him, but from what you posted:

Comparing Gitmo to the Soviet Gulag actually works – people were thrown in there without much trial and they weren’t freed even if known to be innocent because that would throw the whole system out the window. Means that the leaders acna make mistakes…and we cant have that! Sounds pretty close to me.

And of course, Saddam was a vicious human being with spawns from hell. Would anyone here disagree?

But I do think that the comparing Bush to Hitler shows a real immaturity and ignorance and I am embarrassed when I see it. It makes it so easy for the establishment to roll its collective eyes and write us all off as ill educated, hysterical dopes.

deadissue @ 95

The daily events in Gaza (if the world actually got to find out what they were) would tell a good story about what Israel does to bring on the hatred of others with their own actions. I suspect their government, like ours, is fully infiltrated by the mass-murder industry, and to them it’s as simple as Fraggles eating Doozer Sticks…if they don’t, then the construction will simply pile up so high, all the Doozers will have no choice but to leave…

And so, the stockpiles of munitions MUST BE USED, or else…hmmm

As with most things, it’s ever more complicated than that. First off, the Israeli government isn’t buying the weapons–they largely come from what can be described as a grant structure within the Pentagon through its Foreign Military Assistance program. At present, we give about $2.2 billion in military assistance to Israel. More complication–we also provide about $800-900 million a year in what is generically called “economic assistance.” Most of that money is used by the Israeli government to fund start-up companies to reproduce US arms technology locally in Israel, for both use by the Israeli military services and for sale around the world. The other fly in the ointment is guaranteed loans. Those are often more than direct grant assistance, and Israel regularly does little more than pay interest on the loans, which, after some years, are quietly forgiven by Congress, usually as part of some other legislation.

After almost fifty years of such support, the Israeli economy has become inordinately dependent upon arms production and sales. I read an estimate recently which shocked me–one in four livelihoods in Israel are dependent upon arms production, the military or international arms sales.

So, if the US were to suddenly withdraw all or part of its military assistance/loans/economic assistance, the Israel economy would likely collapse. It is similar to the problem in this country–we really can’t afford military spending at the level it has been for the last twenty-five years, with the taxation levels we impose (particularly on the well-to-do), but there has been an economic dependency created which doesn’t lend itself to quick or easy solution.

Cheers.

Their economy, as I view it from afar as an investor, was in recession according to returns last year…how the hell can anyone put up with that while at the same time pouring dumptrucks full of salt into the wounds of their neighbors?

What you described is…in my mind, the perfect scenario for a cycle to be studied hundreds of years from now in classrooms, detailing the fall of post-millenial world powers. In fact, the details “on the ground” aren’t nearly as informative as this right here…what you posted.

Because the product they rely on must have victims, and as long as that’s the case, peace isn’t a word that belongs within 100 miles of the conversation! Coming to terms with these underlying mechanisms should be the goal of our generation of keyboardists…just figure out a way to locate and store the information, pile it up, and then make it available to the public.

All this “the government is everywhere and we never know about…” stuff we grew up assuming at the end of the cold war…with the technology at our disposal now, the details of everything the public “can” know, should be organized and available at the push of a button.

Any country we maintain a relationship with like the one we have with Israel should be put out in the open. I’m really tired of knowing that my country’s top contribution to the world happens to be highlighted by the inovative methods of death that can be wrought on fellow human beings.

Defense is a bullshit word to me at this point. Israel is proof that it’s more about offense and using up inventory to make room for more.

Thank Buddha I get to see Patriots plat tomorrow!

Peace – DI

The truly anazing thing about our country is the self-knowledge of its founders as they fell short of the ideals they propounded.

Uh, no. You’re thinking of their offspring.

The daily events in Gaza (if the world actually got to find out what they were) would tell a good story about what Israel does to bring on the hatred of others with their own actions. I suspect their government, like ours, is fully infiltrated by the mass-murder industry, and to them it’s as simple as Fraggles eating Doozer Sticks…if they don’t, then the construction will simply pile up so high, all the Doozers will have no choice but to leave…

And so, the stockpiles of munitions MUST BE USED, or else…hmmm

As with most things, it’s ever more complicated than that. First off, the Israeli government isn’t buying the weapons–they largely come from what can be described as a grant structure within the Pentagon through its Foreign Military Assistance program. At present, we give about $2.2 billion in military assistance to Israel. More complication–we also provide about $800-900 million a year in what is generically called “economic assistance.” Most of that money is used by the Israeli government to fund start-up companies to reproduce US arms technology locally in Israel, for both use by the Israeli military services and for sale around the world. The other fly in the ointment is guaranteed loans. Those are often more than direct grant assistance, and Israel regularly does little more than pay interest on the loans, which, after some years, are quietly forgiven by Congress, usually as part of some other legislation.

After almost fifty years of such support, the Israeli economy has become inordinately dependent upon arms production and sales. I read an estimate recently which shocked me–one in four livelihoods in Israel are dependent upon arms production, the military or international arms sales.

So, if the US were to suddenly withdraw all or part of its military assistance/loans/economic assistance, the Israel economy would likely collapse. It is similar to the problem in this country–we really can’t afford military spending at the level it has been for the last twenty-five years, with the taxation levels we impose (particularly on the well-to-do), but there has been an economic dependency created which doesn’t lend itself to quick or easy solution.

Cheers.

Urban Pirate @ 55

Ed*ard Teller @ 43

Urban Pirate @
34

There’s an awful lot of Kleins and Bergs and Cohens and Liebers rallying to support this war despite logic.

Must be a coincedence.

Urban Pirate,

Your point appears either vague or distasteful. Do you mind clarifying?

Well, although I am loathe to say it out loud, I am constantly surprised (disturbed?) by how many Jews are supportive of the war despite all logic. It’s like certain folks who may be otherwise firmly footed in reality are blinded by this, and unflinchingly, illogically supportive.

Keep in mind, I live in New York. I hope none of my comments are taken out of character. That being said, this war has a large “Isreal first” contingent of supporters. They’re about the only ones left. At this point, they make me sick

Thanks for your response. I’m afraid you’re wrong, even about greater NYC. The preponderance of American Jews are Democrats and a majority of those want rational peace in Palestine/israel as well as the rest of the Middle East. Many of the most active and eloquent among American peace activists are Jewish. More than a few of them comment here at fdl. Some Jews critical of Israeli policies are wary of making public statements.

No time like the present as I see it! The immediate anti-semitism response you’ll get from right-wingers in the media now has a lot to do with the fact that Israel buys heavy from our mass-murder catalog of products year after year, and if “defending themselves” means ka-ching, then anyone who criticizes is being anti-semitic…it works out well for our defense industry.

The daily events in Gaza (if the world actually got to find out what they were) would tell a good story about what Israel does to bring on the hatred of others with their own actions. I suspect their government, like ours, is fully infiltrated by the mass-murder industry, and to them it’s as simple as Fraggles eating Doozer Sticks…if they don’t, then the construction will simply pile up so high, all the Doozers will have no choice but to leave…

And so, the stockpiles of munitions MUST BE USED, or else…hmmm

All this “the left” and “leftists” crap is shorthand for: “Hey, I don’t like it any more than you do, but AT LEAST I’m not identified as a _______” – - – - From there the posibilities are endless.

Give up on even the argument that Iraq was a good idea (which he did as I recall), and with that example of poor analytical judgement (ie, uh-oh, I hope they don’t ALL figure out that I’m just splattering a quota-worth of words onto a computer screen for money…I hope they don’t ALL realize that I’m no more smarter than any of the people reading my work), he’s left in the same spot as hundreds of other right-wingers who pay their bills off of babble, and really need to hang on to the gig as well as the notion of self-worth that they’ve come to believe only stems from “understanding what’s REALLY going on”

They’re bankrupt at this point, because their readers aren’t looking for the truth…that’s not why they patronize political media in the first place…no, they want to be given a pat on the back for hanging in there, and the only way to provide that service to the customer while retaining one’s dignity is to:

A. Admit the situation is bad
B. Say it’s not as bad as the opposition tells it
C. Chastise the opposition for overdoing it with their criticism
D. Eventually start blaming the opposition entirely for what is wrong

I’d imagine that if you looked across the spectrum of right-wing writers, you’d find this dynamic all over the place. Some will blame Bush, but never moreso than they blame you and I…who of course had nothing to do with any of it.

Nice pull and breakdown! This crap coming my way in tomorrow’s paper should make for good kindling…as long as it’s not below Rich’s column!

What Scarecrow said, 83.

Israel/A*PAC is probably the most toxic subject in the blogosphere, the one every blogger who moderates a comment thread dreads. My wish for the new year is that we find a way to discuss it without shooting everyone in the building.
[Jane, dear, trigger words.]

It really is hard. I’ve expressed impatience here on this in ways similar to how it got out of control in this thread. Minus the racism. Not for a while, but – sorry. The most courageous reporter/blogger on the issue Jane brings out right here is Phil Weiss, who writes for The Nation and The New York Observer. A look at his blog shows every aspect of what Jane so accurately describes as “comment thread dread.”

http://mondoweiss.observer.com/

But Weiss usually writes his essay, then stays aloof as the comment thread takes on a life of its own.

[Mod Note; Does that mean we could take the night off?]