
While the President considers how best to sell the country on escalating the Iraq war, and Democrats like Joe Biden try to figure out how to counter that strategy, it would be nice if someone could identify the good guys from the bad guys. Who, exactly, is our enemy? Lately, it's becoming a little confusing.
On Monday, British troops raided an Iraqi jail in Basra (mostly Shi'ite) run by an Iraqi police unit aptly called the "Serious Crimes Unit." The purpose was to rescue the prisoners from conditions far worse than those reported at Abu Ghraib. A British Major who witnessed the liberation and subsequent destruction of the jail described inmates with crushed hands and feet, burn marks from cigarettes and electrocution and worse, and living conditions that literally packed 100 inmates into a small cell with minimal sanitation. All that was reported Monday in British and US papers, and linked in a post by Christy. The MSNBC version is here. But there's more.
A new British report in The Guardian indicates that just before the raid, the British troops were still uncertain who among the police were the enemy from whom the prisoners were to be liberated.
No doubt we should rejoice that al-Jamiat police station in Basra has been destroyed and its prisoners taken to the relative security of a compound in which detainees are hopefully not routinely tortured. But if a sick satire on an obscure television channel included a sketch about British troops attacking a unit of the police that they established and with whom they had been theoretically working for nearly four years, the outcry would not have been limited to complaints about undermining the morale of our troops under fire. We would have been told that the whole idea was too fantastical to sustain the lampoon.
But that is what really happened on Monday. . .
According to the official statement, the army had "clear directions" from Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, and Muhammad al-Waeli, Basra's governor, to "dissolve the unit". That, at least, is a relief. But what about General Muhammad al-Musawi, Basra's chief of police? He was reported to be "furious" at what he described as "an attempt to stir up trouble." . . . The place is unmanageable in part because nobody can be sure who is on whose side. The confusion of loyalties highlights the cause of the continuing horror.
We find the same confusion surrounding US/Iraqi efforts to form a new "moderate" coalition of Shi'ite, Sunni, and Kurdish parties. In another story reported Tuesday, the US seized and arrested several Iranian officials, some of whom were subsequently released because (1) they had been invited by members of the Iraqi government, and (2) they had diplomatic immunity. Their military aides are still being held on suspicion of planning attacks inside Iraq. But the interesting fact is where they were arrested:
[T]he more significant raid occurred before dawn the next morning, when American forces raided a second location, the general said. The military described it as “a site in Baghdad,” but declined to release further details about the location.Iraqi leaders said last week that the site was the compound of Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, one of Iraq’s most powerful Shiite political leaders, who met with President Bush in Washington three weeks ago. A spokesman for Mr. Hakim said he had not heard of a raid on the compound.
A careful reading of General Caldwell’s statement makes it clear, however, that the location itself was of central importance. The military gathered “specific intelligence from highly credible sources that linked individuals and locations with criminal activities,” it said. The crimes were against Iraqi civilians, security forces and Americans.
So let's get this straight. US forces claim the visiting Iranians were plotting with Iraqis to carry out attacks on other Iraqis and US forces. And without the consent of the Iraqi government we captured and arrested the Iranians inside the compound of Mr. al-Hakim.
You'll recall this is the same al-Hakim whom President Bush met in Washington only two weeks ago. He's the same al-Hakim whose SCIRI party is the principal Shi'ite player in forming the "moderate" coalition the Bush Administration wants to save the Iraq government and allow the US to focus it's hostilities on al-Sadr (who actually supports the al-Maliki national government) and his Mehdi Army (with whom our forces keep skirmishing).
It appears we have no idea what we’re doing, and can’t explain who the enemies are, or why.
Thanks to TRex for adding the picture from Abu Ghraib.
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Scarecrow!
Scarecrow and TRex…now there’s a team.
And Saddam ’swings’ and Bush parties in Crawford.
scarecrow,
I’m seeing your head exploding while putting all of this together. It frightens me.
RevDeb @
4
Not to worry. I have it all straight in my head. Bush bad; Cheney bad; neocons nuts.
This is all getting wa-a-a-aaaayyy too complicated for George to ever comprehend.
The bad guys are the ones we kill.
The ones who help us are the good guys.
It’s simple really.
We are at war with Oceana.
We have always been at war with Oceana.
RBG @
2
Yes, but we needed a moderator. ;)
It’s time to stop this madness.
Will the grown-ups pleeeze take charge and stop the violence?
And bring our troops home.
Now.
Mack @ 6
Except when we’ve been at war with Eastasia.
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
The MSNBC link to news from Najaf is quite important. Note that US troops had just handed over security in Najaf province to the Iraqis – and then US troops went ahead themselves and attacked this man’s house and shot him dead in front of his family.
Who are the Death Squads now?
Scarecrow!
Our money supports these Iraqi jails. Taxation without choice of where our taxes are sent, or for what purposes? I’m thinking about being angry.
I sure hope that the dems are really going to do their jobs starting Jan. 4 or there will be such despair across the land, and I don’t mean just Iraq.
These are all things the President is “thinking” about.
Scarecrow—facilitation perhaps, but moderation…I’m not sure I have the temperament for that.
We’re just gonna kill a lot of people and say they were the bad guys.
Old Soviet trick.
“Serious Crimes Unit”
Who’s been watching too much Law and Order? Is that where their American advisors are getting their ideas from? Law and Order: Criminal Intent, with torture.
RBG @ 16
Are you saying you’re an immoderate fellow?
Yes.
Thanks Scarecrow.
Siun @ 11
Yeah, I saw that. Have you seen anything that talks about why the US forces seem to be deliberately provoking al-Sadr? or is it the other way around. Hard to tell from here, and how would we know?
The same things are going on in the jail that is Gaza.
Bush considering…now that is an oxymoron! If we could just stop pretending that Bush makes any decisions, we could listen and talk to those really in charge and real progress might be made. George H.W. Bush, have you no soul? Fix this for the sake of your grandchildren.
it would be nice if someone could identify the good guys from the bad guys. Who, exactly, is our enemy?
There *are* no good guys, and just about everyone is our enemy. This was pretty much an inevitable consequence of our laughable excuse for a strategy.
(Actually, I’m sure there probably are plenty of good people in Iraq; but I think most of them are hiding, and I don’t think very many of them are our friends)
Are those the same US forces who seem to be deliberately provoking Iran? No, no, those are our carrier groups.
Someone needs to explain to W that foreign policy is not like blowing up frogs. Take away the lad’s firecrackers, please.
Thanks, scarecrow, this was the narrative arc, and excellent linkage, I was seeking on this topic, exactly.
And when someone’s little girl, or boy, or mama or papa gets shot or blown to bits in the Middle East, they’re the bad guys. It’s easy.
Eli – over 1 million Iraqis have been forced to flee their homes since the start of our invasion of their country. Many are now living in refugee camps without adequate water, food or medical care.
If by “the bad guys” you mean the death squads, remember that we are the ones who have established, trained and paid those death squads. Dennis Kucinich called out Rumsfeld on this very topic in May but no one seems to have noticed.
Scarecrow wrote:
Did you mean before Saddam was removed from power or after? That report from Basra sounds disturbingly like what went on in prisons like Abu Ghraib under Saddam. Seems like we’ve finally arrived back where we started, with brutality being the principal means of political persuasion and control.
Good gravy. Look what showed up downstairs.
What is with him? Does he have a sick need for throttling or what?
shhhhhh.
Don’t talk about Iraq while W’s deciderating::
Eli @ 25
On this we agree. I suspect that most folks now resent us to at least some extent for what happened. The ones who lost power and the ones who fear for their lives now, who seem to be the majority of the country, almost certainly resent what we did.
Siun @ 28
As far as I can tell, none of the internal or external forces acting in Iraq (as opposed to the people just trying to keep their heads down and survive) seem very admirable to me.
We’re the bad guys, and everyone else fighting bloodily over Iraq’s corpse are also the bad guys. The majority of the population is just caught in the middle and trying not to get blown up.
Cujo359 @ 29
Yes, that distinction is important. I meant the Abu Ghraib under US control, but Saddam was probably as bad or worse.
Rayne @ 30
He agrees with ME!
How fucking validating is that!!
Troops
Home
NOW
Rayne @
30
That’s not him. It’s somebody plagiarizing him.
I think I read that somewhere. Or I wrote it.
Or…
Scarecrow @ 8
I found some good answers at Informed Comment.
Essentially, we need to just get out of the way so these groups can sort out their own system. Our military presence is providing an unfair advantage to some and that is being abused. So far, the one thing all of these groups agree on is us leaving.
And um, …Wolverines!
I think some of these concepts of “better” or “worse” are relative, at best. From the point of view of the person getting tortured, I’m not sure it’s somehow “better” to be tortured by Americans who torture dozens-a-week as opposed to getting tortured by Baathists in the bad-old-days, who tortured hundreds-a-week. Getting your fingernails pulled out or your limbs crushed is the same, whether done in the name of Democracy or Uday’s vanity. This is why torture is universally outlawed. But expecting b43 to put himself into the shoes of torture victim is probably too much to ask. Heck, he probably goes around bragging about the adrenaline rush he got when he tortured people as a bully in prep school.
The Middle East is ready to explode.
The forces of the Ministry of the Interior is maintaining something like 1200 prisons throughout Iraq … torture is common, judicial oversight and review nonexistant.
Scarecrow – re al-Sadr – my take is that we need to always have a bad guy at the ready. Al-Sadr is quite inconvenient to american plans for permanent control of Iraq. He has a following, he is more and more the only legitimate voice of the Shia and he is arguing for a unified Shia/Sunni collaboration. He has won support beyond his normal constituency by providing food distribution (people are starving) and he is opposing forces in the govt recognized as highly corrupt. None of this makes him popular with the US. Just as we would like to find a “reason” to attack Iran, going after his leadership provides the pretense of “progress” for W (since we’ve already set up Al-Sadr as almost al quaeda) and deepens the chaos that “justifies” the need for surges and escalations and permanent bases.
Cujo359 @ 32
It’s safe to say that any survivor of collateral loss of life, victim of insult and/or heavy-handed tactic or relative of such has sworn to avenge those transgressions.
Is it an international crime to kidnap and hold diplomats with no notice to the country where you do this or the country whos diplomats you kidnap?
How far from Geneva can we go before it’s called star wars?
Get the he*l out of Iraq, Mr President.
I’m sure somebody’s already cited this article here, but given the topic I thought I’d post it again.. analysis piece in WaPo about what’s going to happen if our grand misadventure in Iraq continues for much longer:– a war whose combatants include Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Turkey. I don’t thinik there’s many experts left who aren’t card-carrying PNAC members, who refute this scenario.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01490.html
Siun @ 41
I’ve read in several places that al-Sadr has also kept a lid on violent uprisings/retaliations among his followers. Imagine how quickly the tide could turn against US troops if an escalation occurs and it’s goal is to eliminate this friend of the people.
1,377 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Scarecrow and the Firepup Patriots:
It is time now to round up the 100,000 corporate mercenaries and station ‘em on the perimeter of the Baghdad airport and evacuate ALL our troops…then let the scumbag profiteers figure their own way out.
Not one more Levy of American troops, not one more extension for kids already there…jest get them outta there NOW!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE FUCKIN’ AMMUNITION…NO PARDONS AND NO MERCY FOR ANY OF ‘EM!!!
We are heading fast toward world war. Get out of Iraq.
Isn’t it an international crime — actually, the supreme international crime — to start a preemptive war? Torture is there somewhere too, as is extrajudicial disappearance, exhibition of detainees for the purpose of propaganda, violating international treaties, killing noncombatants.. heck, it just may be true that the entire b43 foreign policy is international crime.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 43
Actually, I see some fragments of logic to what the U.S. is doing.
Sending a message to Hakim (or Sadr) that “We want to work with you, but we won’t accept ____” is, theoretically at least, more sensible than most of what the Bushites have done in Iraq — it’s mixing carrots with the occasional stick.
But that doesn’t mean the specific step of detaining the Iranians made any sense, or the killing of the Sadr aide in Najaf. I have no idea if those folks were up to any nefarious business… and unfortunately, I doubt the U.S. military knows much more than I do.
Blub @ 48
Just adding it to the list..)
Obviously the international courts are falling down on the job here.
I’ve said it before, we need help!
Swopa @ 49
You’re assuming that this is actually what they’re trying to do.
Remember before the war, when we moved all those troops onto Saddam’s doorstep, and he caved and agreed to let inspectors in? I recall reading some expressions of grudging admiration at how Bush had bluffed Saddam. Only it wasn’t a bluff, and he was determined to go and do something macho and stupid even *after* he had gotten what he supposedly wanted.
So yeah, maybe this is a threat that sends a message, but knowing Bush, look for him to follow through with the threat whether it’s heeded or not.
The trials of occupation
Executing Saddam will not bring peace to Iraq. That can only come when US forces leave
Burhan al-Chalabi
Thursday December 28, 2006
The Guardian
The imminent execution of Saddam Hussein is nothing but a smokescreen – a diversion in a series of diversions that will do nothing to address the price of the occupation of Iraq. If the Bush administration truly wanted to curb the cycle of bloodshed, it would come clean and share with the US public, the Iraqi people, and the international community the real goals of this disastrous neoconservative adventure.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm…..94,00.html
Oklahoma kiddo @ 52
Executing Saddam is a sideshow, and will probably used as yet another imaginary milestone which will magically make Iraq a success (the Iraqi people will surely form a secular democracy now that they have closure and realize they no longer have to fear Saddam’s return!).
Eureka Springs, AR @ 50
Go you, or anyone else here remember the Jr’s news conference where a question was posed to him concerning possible violation of international law, pre-emption I think. He scoffed, smirked and sarcastically said something to the effect of ‘getting his lawyer right on that’, or “I’ll have to ask my lawyer ’bout that”.
It was late 02 or early 03 at the height of his prewar arrogance.
rumi at 37: thanks. Always smart to check Juan Cole.
siun at 41: yep. It bothers me that all the media and the Dems just assume that Bush’s naming of Sadr as the bad guy is credible. Just like before the war.
rumi @ 45
Um, just to be clear… Moqtada may be a nationalist, but he’s also a thug. Hakim’s no better, but don’t delude yourselves about Sadr.
It’s not a coincidence that after his faction took over the Ministry of Health, death squads started operating in Iraqi hospitals, killing wounded Sunnis.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 49
Since the preznit opted out of the international courts long ago, he/they somehow think they’re above it all.
Anyone know what happened with the case against Rummy that was brought in Germany (I think it was Germany anyway)?
Scarecrow @ 55
I was following Sadr back in 2003-04, when his people were trying to take over the most lucrative Shiite mosques by force, and razed an entire gypsy village for being insufficiently Islamic. I didn’t need Bush to tell me Sadr was a bad guy.
Swopa @ 58
But Sadr is the absolute worst, most reprehensible kind of bad guy: Not Ours.
Amato today says:
George Will once again just can’t help himself from eating a good helping of zombie brains before he goes on the air. He tries sooo hard to sound sooo much smarter than everybody else that I got bored and almost missed it.
Will: Baghdad is the problem and while we debate what to do in Baghdad, the Shiites are changing the facts on the ground in Baghdad through incremental—not at all stealthy—rather rapid ethnic cleansing. So we may get a monochrome Baghdad out of this which would be ahhh, sad, but perhaps tranquilizing.
Monochrome and Tranquilizing? Is he fraking kidding me. You don’t need Will’s thesaurus to understand how sick and twisted that statement was. The insurgents are slaughtering hundreds of people (did he expect them to kill a little stealthier?) at a time and he calls the outcome of that display of savagery as having—a calming effect…You know–I wonder if George Will has ever looked in the mirror?
Swopa – I’ll check with my sources on the Min of Health issues – do you have some cites I can look at? I do know that friends on the ground in Baghdad who are close to many in the medical professions are looking somewhat favorably on Sadr but detest Hakim – and it is under Hakim that the worst of the death squads has developed … Hakim is our guy and is also an oil smuggler amongst other things.
See the info floating around on Jabr et al … I’ll try to pull some notes together soon on this.
Swopa — Thanks for dropping by. There may be a logical tactic, but what’s the strategy? Why provoke al-Sadr? And why ally with al-Hakim against al-Sadr. I don’t see any long-term benefit from picking among thugs who may wind up having their own civil war.
Um, just to be clear… Moqtada may be a nationalist, but he’s also a thug. Hakim’s no better, but don’t delude yourselves about Sadr.
It’s not a coincidence that after his faction took over the Ministry of Health, death squads started operating in Iraqi hospitals, killing wounded Sunnis.
Patrick 4/4 @
38
??? (ears perking up)
Twisted Martini – ah, don’t get excited…Patrick 4/4’s been watching Red Dawn again.
Oh, for the good old days when the bad guys were Soviets and Cubans and not Americans…
Once upon a time not so long ago we thought Saddam might be an S.O.B. But he was our S.O.B. That of course was before Saddam got too big for his britches. The scent of our government’s hypocrisy is absolutely suffocating
Rayne @ 64
Damn, I thought we were going to be talking about the Rose Bowl and those evil Trojans! (evil in a football and non-planned parenthood way)
Scarecrow @ 62
I said fragments of logic; I didn’t say there was a genuinely effective strategy at work. :)
Rayne @ 64
I seem to remember the Cuban being a sympathetic character. Even in the testosterone charged world of couch potato warriors, apparently moral ambiguity sometimes intrudes.
Siun @ 61
Washington Post: Iraqi Hospitals Are War’s New ‘Killing Fields’
You don’t need to convince me about Hakim and Jabr; I know they’re corrupt thugs, too.
Swopa @ 67
When you have no plan or policy implemented, everything depends upon expediency, and the reasons guiding an expedient response can change day by day.
If the goal was (and most probably is) to create a puppet government amenable to all US demands, one can attract a great many fairweather friends….
Gilliard has a kick ass post about those intellectually bankrupt pieces of shit at Fox News.
We need to kill these zombies with rhetorical head shots, they deserve no quarter and shall be given none.
http://stevegilliard.blogspot……again.html
Purple fingers aside (or shoved where the Republican sun don’t shine), the Bush administration continues to treat Iraq as a colony. That was the original plan, and they are sticking to it. The Iraqi government has no business doing diplomacy with its neighbours. That’s our business, not theirs.
FWIW on an earlier comment of mine, the bushed remark was in response to a question on the proper judicial course for Saddam after his capture.
I’m not advocating one bad guy over any other. I’m trying to see the situations from the perspective of innocent civilians who have/are suffering without utilities, food, employment, security, health care and other basics of normal life. If I mention that I’ve read that al-Sadr has prevented major violent uprisings by his followers, it’s only to convey the possibility that might exist without his influence.
What any of us thinks doesn’t matter to the Iraqi people like being provided food, water and some measure of security no matter who provides it.
Twisted Martini @ 63
Not Michigan. Red Dawn – in honor of what I think is a faux Ben Domenech (sp) at the end of last thread.
In its 12/18 issue, The New Yorker has an article “Knowing the Enemy”
that spotlights the work of a young captain in the Australian Army named David Kilcullen. Kilcullen is a former cadet of Duntroon, the Australian West Point, and doctoral candidate in political anthropology who recently began working with the US State Dept. to help redefine fighting the “the war on terror” in terms of “global counterinsurgency.” He describes how we need to change from playing into the hands of our enemy from making it all one fight with a monolithic response to one where we recognize that there are sixty different groups in sixty different countries who all have different objectives.
The information battlefield is where the counter-insurgency needs to be waged and at present America and its allies are barely competing. Kilcullen’s thinking is broadly informed and ranges from his own personal immersion in villages of West Java and interviews with former guerillas in the early 90’s to a foundation in key texts encompassing Cold War social science through recent studies of radical Islam.
This lengthy article is loaded with discussion-worthy information with ties to several different topics.
“Knowing the Enemy”
.
Rayne @ 64
Hee hee. Actually I was watching Dirty Dancing and started thinking of other Patrick Swayze/Jennifer Grey pairings.
Siun – In case you missed it, montag posted a moony link earlier today. Pretty good timeline. The last third was somewhat new to me.
Swopa – thanks!
I’ll pass along anything I get as well. My understanding is that the Min of Interior is SCIRI turf but I don’t know enough about Min of Health.
The Senate (or the House Committee responsible for foreign affairs has got to haul in Condi and Hadley’s ass, and make them testify on oath what exactly our policy in Iraq is, and if they can be forced to make a grammatically and logically coherent response, to explain exactly how we get to there from HERE. For a good prosecutor, this shouldn’t be rocket science, and there have to be a couple on every Democratic Congressional committee’s staff.
Swopa @ 69
More via Juan Cole:
I highly recommend reading the second Logan link above.
rumi – Thanks
So what happens here? Isn’t a treaty (geneva) bound by our constitution? I know the MCA/ Senate 3930 passed. Are we no longer members of the Geneva convention? Just because, you know, the constitution is just a GD piece of paper.
Ford disagreed with Bush on invading Iraq
Former president made comments in embargoed interview in July 2004
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16372929/
I don’t look for much to happen from asking Condi or Hadley ANYTHING- unless the questioner knows the answer and is prompting the lyin sacks of shit to lie under oath..
They can dance around questions about “what’s our goal? strategy? etc. for hours without breaking a sweat-
You’ve got to ask em about illegal activities and get em to lie.
Siun — NPR had a report a couple of weeks ago about the Sadr squad killings in hospitals of Sunni patients as well. It was haunting. I don’t have a link, but you could likely do a search on their website for it. Can’t remember if it was NPR or if it was the later PRI “The World” broadcast on which I heard it, though. Sorry this isn’t much help — am headed to bed, but I’ve heard the same that Swopa has about all three factions. SIGH What a freaking mess. But the report was talking about how Sunnis were terrified to go to hospitals in certain parts of Baghdad — that they would risk bleeding to death rather than go to certain ones controlled by Sadr’s faction, because it would mean torture and slower death — they’d risk trying to make it across town instead. Really haunting stuff from, if I remember correctly, a journalist whose name rang a bell as someone who had been there quite a while. I’ll try to dig up a link and will e-mail it to you if I find it.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 82
See? Ford took a few blows to the head getting in and out of helicopters, and he still had more going on upstairs than Der Shrubbenfuhrer. Of course, that only requires two neurons.
…about those death squads…
It’s interesting to go back and re-read the articles from the time they were written. Most of this has been before us like a slow motion train wreck.
Christy and Swopa – thanks to you both.
I am very concerned about the current effort to go after al-Sadr rather than face our own culpability in the death squads. That doesn’t mean al-Sadr is a good guy but I think we are being pointed, once again, in the wrong direction.
The wall-to-wall coverage of Gerald Ford’s death has been going on for almost an entire 24-hour news cycle.
That is enough.
It has gotten to where every word that is said about Ford on cable TV sounds like a cliche–because we’ve already heard it said multiple times in the past 24 hours.
Every bit of history. Every anecdote. Every opinion on what a “decent guy” he was. Every declaration that he “healed” the nation’s wounds from Watergate [although he failed to excise the cancer of the Rumsfeld-Chaney crowd from our government. And pardoning Nixon was not my idea of “healing”).
Allow them an additional 24-hour news cycle to cover his funeral.
Other than that, c’mon, MSM, let’s get back to covering whatever else is going on in the world.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 81
well, now, Saddam is sentenced to be executed in less than 30 days by order of an appeals court that upheld his verdict…all done in Iraqi court under US supervision. He’ll probably be executed before the preznit announces his plan next week or so.
If I remember how this works, and I may not be remembering it correctly, this isn’t quite as simple as one might hope. The way the US considers itself bound to international treaties depends on how that treaty was ratified (the wording in the Senate legislation leading to ratification). Some treaties are ratified as self-executing (basically, their requirements are OUR requirements) while other treaties are ratified but only enforceable in a US court on the US to the extent required in the ratification statute (treaties are, more often than not, ratified with reservations imposed by the requirements of the ratification statute and, sometimes, directly by a president). If this is correct, you’d have to look at more than just which treaties we ratified to figure out what precisely our requirements are, under each of them. Basically, it’s pretty hard to nail the US under US law for a violation of a treaty
obligation.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 81
Good post Scarecrow!
Let’s toss in a couple of other things.
The Iranian diplomats were actually direct invitees of Talabani, our Kurdish friend (who has felt less friendly since we began to let Turkey smackdown the Kurdish PKK terrorists and since the kurds jumped around the Iraqi Constitution and US companies and cut some new drilling deals with a nonUS nonUK company).
So that coalition W was counting on, moderate Sunnis (apparently they’ll be coalescing from Jordan and Syria where they have taken refuge), kurds like Talabani (who invited the Iranians) and al-Hakim (at whose compound the Iranians were found) – doesn’t look good, does it.
The big US complaint about Sadr is that he is much more ant-American than Hakim and his Badr Brigade. Also anti-Persian. He wants an Arab Shia Iraq. At one point, he might have gone for an Arab Shia AND Sunni Iraq – but who knows now? He isn’t a good guy – otoh, his Mahdi crew proffers more services (ambulance, medical, food, etc.) in many areas than the gov does (granted – Shia, pro-sadr areas).
He is not a nice man and his hooks are deep in the Interior Ministry/police – but I think the main US problem is that he is just flat out anti-American and anti-nonMuslim, nonArab presences in Iraq.
The other interesting point – Najaf is where Sistani hangs out too. In connection with making arrangements with Hakim to come visit GWB, the US made the unusual turnover of Najaf to Iraqi forces (go read about the ceremony – the biting off frogs heads and biting into a living rabbits heart and sharing around and try to imagine just how well we understand the culture, ‘kay?).
IMO, that was meant to be a carrot to Sistani – his home digs, Iraqi control, com’on Al, doncha like us a little?
Unfortunately, Hakim goes back and the delegation goes knocking on Sistani’s door because he won’t even speak with infidel Americans and guess what? He’s not buying what they are selling. He’s got some tight Iranian ties from his exile, and while reputedly he is no fan AT ALL of al-Sadr, Sistani nixed any approach that tries to marginalize or cause dissent between any Shia groups.
Granted, starting yet another civil battlefield, Shia on Shia, seemed like a bad idea, but whoever spent long hours thinking it up for W and doing the triptics for Hakim’s vist, saw their gameplan get shot down fast.
So soon after Sistani smacks us down, we go after Sadr’s aide. In Najaf. And Iranians too.
I book it as sending a message to Sistani more than Sadr even, but who knows?
Siun @ 87
I think whatever we do is likely to be the wrong move at this point. The folks who are capable of gaining power in the sort of chaos Iraq is experiencing aren’t going to be nice people. The only one I can think of who seems above reproach is the Shiite Ayatollah (Al Sistani?, can’t remember) who’s been urging calm and cooperation. The rest all seem to be the sort of folks you wouldn’t let anywhere near power if you could manage it. If al-Sadr is gone there will probably just be another bastard to take his place.
Marcy’s book is out!!
http://thenexthurrah.typepad.c….._dece.html
yay!
Siun @
87
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01680.html
Don’t know if this is what you were looking for. I remember the hospitals story too.
Mary at 91 — interesting. I chills me to think the bush idiots are trying to play checkers with these people. “How about a nice game of chess?”
neurophius @ 88
And, not much mention that the people didn’t feel very healed by his pardon of Nixon. His popularity upon inauguration was around 70%, and it fell precipitously (~25-30 points) immediately after the pardon. The press isn’t going to say that now.
Mary,
From everything I have read they are all saying no to US. Just no.
montag, The press is saying that–every news hour on MSNBC tonight has included the plummeting poll numbers after the pardon. I believe it was Pat Buchanan.
Late Night’s upstairs.
Eureka – at least they can use the leftover drug campaign t-shirts for something. That went well, after all. It’s not like there’s a meth or opium or huge %of population in jail for drug charges or stuff like that here in the US. We really dodged that bullet. Whew
I am not a Middle East scholar,
but it seems to me that there are two models for stability in Iran
One is the model we deposed; and iron fisted dictator
the second is some sort of fledgling representative model albeit with functional ties to Iran, Turkey and Syria (Israel would be nice to add to this list, but unlikely)
The US has historically looked for a Model One leader who was in our court, but it has not worked out so well of late.
Dana @ 98
Ah, well, Buchanan is not the press. What I’m hearing, mostly indirectly, is how “Ford healed the nation,” or some such. The truth is that he pissed us off. (!) And, I kind of resent that sort of revisionist history.
scarecrow, Thanks for another fine post.
hey, montag. Yeah. I detest that kind of history too, of course. Buchanan is not the press, yes, but the information is on t.v. –I can hardly take Buchanan, but once in awhile, I can.
my gosh. listening to scarborough now. he has speaker after speaker on, doing nothing less than causing the president “unstable” and his Iraq/Iran posture (I won’t dignify it with the word “strategy”) insane…
http://video.msn.com/v/us/msnb…..9/&fg=
causing=calling.. typo
Scarborough and similar animals are brutal when they commence to eating their own.
hehehe. I’m loving it.
rumi @ 107
Is this the same El-Hakim that Bush called”Your Emminence ” ????
deblonay @ 109
yes
Eureka Springs, AR @
103
Lots of great comments tonight. Appreciate it.
…and a thanks to all from me too for a great discussion
Eureka Springs, AR @
110
I thought Ali Hakim was was played by Eddie Albert? Oh, wait…