In response to Kevin Drum's post about letting the warmongers have their "surge" so Lord McCain and his fellow wingnuts can't run around saying "we would have won if only" for the next 20 years, Digby says:
As for the long term, it doesn't matter how spectacularly they fail, they will never admit it. We would have won "if only" no matter what actually happens. If only we'd put in more troops earlier, or more troops now, or reinstituted the draft or dropped some daisy cutters or whatever. These people live in a fantasy world in which they are always right but others are continuously conspiring to rob them of whatever they really need to prove it. In the long run, they will insist that the war could have been won if only the wimps hadn't lost their nerve. And they will persuade a fair number of people that this was true — Americans don't like losers and don't like to think of themselves as losers. The paranoid strain will be happy to re-argue, re-litigate and re-write history down the road to say that America was betrayed from within. It's what they do.
There is still a strong strain of "we would've won in Viet Nam if only…" because no other narrative emerged to trump it in the pea-sized right wing imagination. The crimes of Watergate seemed wholly removed from the travesty of Viet Nam, whereas the greed and corruption of those who wielded decision-making powers in the Iraq war are ripe for big, public exposure. While I agree with Atrios that in the short term nobody is going to stand down and let the dirty fucking hippies run things, I think there is a target-rich environment to disgrace the right wing idealogues and the extreme zealots of the GOP who planned this little disaster. Then the Joke Line's of the world will just claim that they have always ascribed to this worldview, and nobody will ever admit that they thought differently.
I honestly believe that's the only way to break the back of this war — until you can give people an excuse for retreat that doesn't say "we lost," we won't stop meddling in the Middle East. But "the wingnuts fucked it up," ran the war like they did Katrina, betrayed the military in the process, wasted money like a drunken sailor and stole everything that wasn't nailed down — that plays into many popular narratives that the American people will find acceptable, nay comforting.
There is a big need for spectacle here (paging Henry Waxman) and a way to demonstrate that if there was ever was hope for a successful outcome to this fiasco it was a function of post-war reconstruction. Not that I think there ever was much hope, but if there ever was even a one per-cent chance that something positive could've emerged that would've been it. It was entirely flubbed by the GOP. There is not another administration to smear blame on, nor can it be placed in the lap of the military. And the "anti-tax" crowd (who damn near lynched Liddy Dole for supporting "tax'n'spend" Lincoln Chafee over Steve Laffey) comprise a lot of that hold-out set Digby described; as much as they don't like to lose, they hate being ripped off for the privilege of losing even more (see: Cafferty, Jack; Dobbs, Lou). I mean, Halliburton might be marginally more worthy of stealing from the government than your average welfare queen in the eyes of your garden variety mouth-breather, but only just.
Big lights. Lots of cameras. Pitchforks and torches. Everybody will be running from the NeoCons like they had LieberCooties. (And speaking of Lieberman, his committee — the Senate counterpart to Waxman's — will stay conspicuously silent on the subject. Many in the blogosphere will no doubt be calling loud attention to this fact.)
BTW — when did we start calling Kevin "K-Drum"? I must've missed that.
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Jane!
We shouldn’t send more people to their deaths just to stop the wingnuts from saying “I told you so.” We should care about what actually happens to people, not what hateful idiots might say…
Until there is a settlement to the Palestinian “question”, there will be no peace in the Middle East. Ever.
Carter did it up right with Camp David. Clinton followed up. Bush and Cheney blew it all to hell. I want these Bush lunatics called to account.
Investigate AIPAC.
Oklahoma kiddo @
3
Actually, their IS a settlement; Israel needs to give the Palestinians land, and the Palestinians have to live as peaceful neighbors.
But neither side is ready to do their part…
I suggested myself a few days ago that maybe we should let them have their escalation in order to shut them up when it failed and deprive Lord McCain of the nomination. But I followed it up by saying it would not be worth the lives lost. Especially not if, as Digby suggests, it would not shut them up anyway.
Publicus @ 6
Well… lets see. In 1948 the Palestinians were forced to vacate their land. And Israel was given a homeland. Rightfully. Where lies the justice in that?
Hey Jane!
I sure hope Waxman is resting up and getting into fighting weight for this one! After all those years of trying to get folks to pay attention, he finally has a proper stage on which to call out these criminals!
If it was right for the Jewish people to be given a homeland, then so shall it be right that the Palestinians be granted the same.
OT, but worth a giggle:
Over at Vanity Fair, David Friend’s Dick Cheney’s Google searches.
My Fav?
Fabulous post Jane.
Reservations have no place in the civilized world. Gaza is a reservation.
I read Kevin Drum’s comments, and I just couldn’t believe it. How can any even semi-rational person believe that when Iraq continues to blow up after we send another 3,000 American soldiers to their graves — that the Republicans will say “oh, I guess we were wrong.” It’s just never going to happen. They’ve fucked up completely already — we talked about overkill during the Cold War, there have already been enough megatons of stupidity expended in this war to destroy any neocon ideology a dozen times over.
Just say no. And keep saying it.
the morons still trying to defend the president actually continue to defend haliburton with just as much zeal
no kidding, you try to point out how much haliburton stole from us and a barrage comes back atcha
I know this doesn’t resonate as well,
but if someone insists on taking the wheel and leads you down a disastrous road,
do you really want to trust them to get you out?
Kerry really had a point (lousy delivery but good point) about doing the homework.
This war was planned and sold the way I wrote term papers in high school – all form and no substance. In college I had to mix in substance to get a passing grade.
by the way, Keninny over at Howie’s place has a great post on Carter and his book and Fisk:
http://downwithtyranny.blogspo…..elves.html
Mad Dogs @ 11
quagmire
Digby is absolutly right. Nothing is going to satisfy these people. As long as someone else is doing the dying. Even if there is a “surge” it won’t be enough. These nuts are addicted to war and “winnin” even if they have no clue what that really means and the outcomes it generates…
I seriously wonder the percentage of Americans who are hearing the: “Wait! We can fix it! We just need to send MORE troops! Yeah! Yeah! That’s the ticket!
I think the WTF? quotient in America is going through the roof.
Yes it is hard to admit to losing a war. However, look at all the missions that did not get accomplished (found no WMD, did not bring Democracy to Iraq, did not stabilize Iraq). This looks to me like a failure and a big fat loss. Don’t blame it on General Shinseky!
LieberCooties!!!!! Brillant.
Oklahoma kiddo @
4
Clinton did a lousy job re Israel/Palesrtine. Lousy. But you are right. The key to long-term peace in the Middle East is out of reach as long as Israel is allowed to continue expansion and allowed to replenish its armaments such as cluster bombs with the FULL consent of the majority of Democrats, let alone all the Republicans in Congress.
But the wingnuts will refuse to do that, and the Dems in Congress will be willing enablers. Re the question of whether or not to fight the pro-surge meme? The surge idea is totally insane. It is escalation. It will doom hundreds of young Americans and thousands if not tens of thousands of Iraqis. For nothing. To not resist this is immoral. Period.
EPU’d re my EKG. Routine EKG as prep for routine shoulder surgery. Nurse says I have the heart of a 35-yo, and I’m 60….. Thanks for your concern, pups.
We, (the U.S.) has no money. We ran out of this stuff back at the start of the Bush regime. We are in negative dollars territory. We want more money? Print it. One problem. In order to print that money we have to sell off this country’s assets. Like to China. The loan from China, Japan, Britain and others is coming due. Of course Bush and his crowd will gone by the ‘due-date’.
Titanyum @ 21
I would really like the democrats to get off of the “we lost the war” stuff
this president started a fight, he lied us into it, America won the fight, our military was an unqualified success
then the president changed the parameters of the fight, and kept changing it
the president lost, this is his failure, it’s not our failure, it’s not the military’s failure, it’s not America’s failure
it’s the failure the sick fraternity known as the PNAC, it’s the failure of the morons that insisted on overruling the heads of our armed forces and it’s the failure of the administrations maniacal visions that he is some kind of deity in conversation with the almight himself and his Messianic vision of self granduer
Umm, it might be that the Bushies have almost gotten one of the things they’ve wanted so that they’ll be able to declare victory….
Now, all they need is a status of forces agreement to keep US troops in Iraq indefinitely (to protect the oil and to provide a jumping-off point for further Middle East misadventures), and they’ve won the war that they really wanted to fight.
Not the one they told the public they were fighting, but the one they really wanted….
Ed*ard Teller @
23
I’m kinda skeptical about that, actually. I simply do not believe there is any one magic bullet that would make the Middle East all better.
That being said, I would still like to see Israel/Palestine resolved, because the current situation is a humanitarian disaster.
Lieberman is nothing more than treacherous.
If the Surge doesn’t work, the next Bright Idea we hear will probably involve nukes…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 28
My contempt for Joe Lieberman knows no bounds.
neurophius @ 30
Hopefully he will get the historical legacy he deserves, and lives long enough to taste his own disgrace.
Manna will fall from heaven and pigs will fly before the wingnut-Wulitzer chorus admits to having failed. St McCain/Lieberman will get their escalation now that the generals are “on board”. Fantasies abound about a rapproachment bewteen Al Sadr and the Sunnies. The generals have apparently been bought off with promises of a bigger military. (Fool me once…)
None of this will make a damn bit of difference. So whose son/daughter will be the last one to die for this epic mistake?
I firmly believe the government of Israel, like our own, is out of control. The Israeli government’s actions, and influence in this country must be ‘checked’. No matter the party in power in Washington.
Meanwhile, in Somalia, there is yet to be another Afghanistan style nation beholden to radical Islamists.
Looks like the moles are winning in this whack-a-mole game.
-GSD
GSD @ 34
You know your country’s in trouble when the moles have better vision than your government.
drum is a closet neocon. his latest is perfectly consistent with his original support for the invasion. drum is a PRETEND left-leaning nice-guy. But its a completely phoney act because on everything that matters he’s right there with the wack-pack.
Drum is essentially a plant that undermines left positions.
.
I want our men and women out of Iraq now. I have seen no arguments that come near convincing me that staying in Iraq serves any purpose whatsoever.
The american people have said in no uncertain terms that they want out of Iraq. If this adminstration proceeds with their “surge” then immediate impeachment proceedings should begin.
ragz @ 38
I’d love to impeach. But what of the “super majority” thing?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 39
Oh, you want a *conviction*…
Eli @ 40
I surely do.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 41
Of course, Bush could always pull a Nixon and resign rather than face impeachment…
(must… maintain… straight… face…)
While I agree with Drumm as a political response, we simply can not countenance another American soldier dying in this fiasco. Politics be damned, we must get out.
Ed*ard Teller @ 23:
EPU’d re my EKG. Routine EKG as prep for routine shoulder surgery. Nurse says I have the heart of a 35-yo, and I’m 60….. Thanks for your concern, pups.
Dude, she was hittin’ on ya.
If The Surge fails miserably, Bush and his minions will simply declare that it was because it wasn’t big enough, on account of those damn fainthearted pacifist Democrats.
ET – I am sooo glad to hear the surgery is of the less exciting sort!
and yep, she was hittin’ on you! ;->
Eli @ 42
I am hesitant to envision this President having the smarts, or for that matter perhaps, the ‘morals’ of Nixon.
Maybe Bush is going to get his “bigger army” through engaging Iran. Then he’d be covered in reinstituting the draft because of the dire circumstances. (Never mind that he caused all of them).
Oklahoma kiddo @ 47
It’s not really about either of those. It’s more like… the ability to recognize/admit error or defeat.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 47
And part of my #48 was stirred by reading at Raw Story yesterday that the Selective Service is going to “run through their procedures” for call-up for the first time since 1998.
The difference between Nixon and Bush is that when a delegation of senior Republican congressmen went to Nixon and told him that impeachment was inevitable, he resigned.
If a delegation of senior Republican congressmen went to Bush and told thim that impeachment was inevitable, he would probably respond by throwing them out of his office and sending more troops to Iraq.
Or, say, by bombing Iran.
The “morals of Nixon ” is the ultimate oxymoron. But Rush Limbass would confuse that with his fake prescriptions.
Ed*ard Teller:
Best wishes.
Hope post-op therapy includes plenty of keystrokes from your hands to our pixels in the New Year.
I also had a ‘WTF!?’ reaction in ignorance of the details.
We already knew you’re all heart; good to have official confirmation, just for the record.
—-
edit save typo fix.
Eli @ 49
Well now. Let’s perhaps just say, I do not see George having the intelligence, not to mention the “ability”, to admit that he might be wrong.
Ed*ard Teller:
I hope you have a successful operation and a quick recovery.
We need your wisdom here.
neurophius @ 56
Amen.
BTW, I’m 37, but a nurse recently told me that I have the wisdom of a 12-year-old.
the idiocy of the politcal discourse of mccain’s/lieberman’s/bush’s escalation, i.e., the so-called “surge” underscores the problem with a war of choice – there is no guiding principle like win or be conquerored that governs participation in wars of necessity. This fact leaves idiots like mccain, lieberman, bush, and drum to have the disasterous positions they do.
.
George has never *had* to admit he was wrong. Somebody else has gotten his a** out of whatever sling he got it into every time. He’s always walked away and left the mess behind for others. That’s been his training his whole life. He knows no other way.
SusanD @ 59
Think about the course of history if Poopy had just not paid his bail once or twice…. *sigh*
I agree, and I feel this is the only way to stop the war.
BTW, deaths directly attributable to shrub’s neglect, incompetence, murder by proxy probably just topped 10,000.. in broad numbers:
Iraq US/allied military 3211
Iraq US/allied civilian 377 contractors/approx 125 journalists
Afghanistan/other fronts US/allied military 515
Katrina 2541
9/11 2993
Totals 9762… throw in another 250 we don’t know about…
Add to this 55,000 dead Iraqi civilians and however many dead Afghans…
Good job shrub.
ragz @ 38
montag @ 60
Or accepted his drunken mano-a-mano challenge and beat the fucking snot out of him.
From Atrios:
It’s not clear there was ever a Friedman Unit that was ever the “make or break” period, when, if we’d just got that right, everything would have turned out much better; but if there was, it was probably that six months before we invaded Iraq. I hope Waxman et al focus on why we got that wrong, and who got it wrong, cause everything important is tied to that.
neurophius @ 52
That’s right. I’m thinking. I mean George basically threw his daddy’s men (Baker’s ISG guys) “out of his office”.
K-Drum says,
“Well, screw that. There’s nothing we can do to stop them anyway, so give ‘em the resources they want. Let ‘em fight the war the way they want.”
How many more troops–and civilians–is he willing to let die in order to satisfy the wingnuts?
I like that idea. It’s strangely…..satisfying.
Eli @
57
Jeebus, Eli, I thought you were much younger than that.
There go all my jailbait fantasies.
SusanD @ 66
I know it’s a terribly atavistic and backward viewpoint, but I think Dubya would be a much better person if at some point in his spoiled, wretched life he had gotten the shit kicked out of him. If for no other reason than to teach him the important lesson that being an asshole has negative consequences.
Eli @ 62
Now that would have been a Wimp-a-thon worth watching. I don’t think much money could have been made selling tickets, though. :)
They’re both such sneaks that they would have spent the evening dancing around trying to find an opening for a sucker punch….
Jane Hamsher @ 67
I could dress like little Jack Roberts, if that would help…
(Gah, now I’ve creeped *myself* out)
montag @ 69
Fortunately, through the power of the internet, I have been able to find this very vivid simulation of what this epic battle would have looked like.
Remember when there were adults in the Republican Party who had values and ethics?
Vermont’s former Senator Stafford dies.
Catch his quotes on the gay marriage issue at the end of the article.
-GSD
President Bush signed an executive order Thursday to raise the pay of federal workers, members of Congress and Vice President Dick Cheney in the new year.
Oh goody. Dick, Joe and Hillary get a pay raise. I feel better now.
Was this before or after the order to end Katrina housing assistance?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 73
The Muslim prophet born in Bethlehem
The story of Jesus held a special place within early Islam. There is no need for a clash of civilisations
Karen Armstrong
Saturday December 23, 2006
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm…..18,00.html
We need to tell them that the price to escalate this war or even continue it is THEIR KIDS. That’s right, “you can’t say we would have won if only…”, unless you are willing to shovel the lives of the very elite’s kids into this damn disaster.
We also need to make it clear to those that advocate continuing this disaster that we can’t continue to fund it, unless they pay as they go.
Keeping up this war may feel good for the wing nuts, but putting the bill on the backs of our kids and grand-kids is like Mortgaging your home to smoke Crack.
Eli @
70
Yeah that was too far, Eli. Image be gone.
Ron Russell @ 76
How do you structure a draft so that the rich and the powerful cannot manipulate the system to keep their kids out of service?
Jane Hamsher @ 77
If it’s any help, I’m not as accomplished a dancer.
perris @
25
very good
I blame Skull and Bones. They should’ve kicked him out for being such a dick. Then Poppy WOULD’VE beat the tar out of him.
Do I really understand what the ramifications of nuclear poisoning, like in “fall-out”, is like? It’s like leukemia. With no pain killers or medical help.
I have to wonder. What exactly does Christmas mean to those who support war?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 83
It means sneaking into Iraq and posing for pictures with a fake turkey.
Or was that Thanksgiving?
‘Coaliton Of The Willing’ member stays the course:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Poli…..amp;page=3
ABCNews basically says and cites the LATies today – reporting the surge is surging ahead ala AEI. Touches Dems objections. Quotes Bush via Saturday Radio Address to the troops (’You’re staying the course, cause we’re surging now.’) And then:
OK Kiddo – have you ever read Robert Jay Lifton?
His book Death in Life is an astonishing work on Hiroshima and the aftermath – as well as the psychological impact on us and the whole world for entering the nuclear age.
And when I went to see if it is still in print, I noticed that he and two others have a recent book Crimes of War:Iraq which repeats the brilliant work they did on war crimes in Vietnam. I’ll be ordering that myself.
But Lifton is a very worthwhile read – he’s a psychiatrist who has studied Hiroshima, Nazi doctors, Aum Shinrikyo and Timothy McVeigh as well.
Siun @ 87
The psychic numbing of everyday life…. Quite a concept.
I haven’t seen enough work on our Vice President.
The guy has gotten a free pass from the media. He hides out and only occassionally allows Fox News or Timmeh to lob a softball or two.
Here’s what a real journalist would do: stake him out. Find him. Force him to face a camera while tough questions are being asked.
It has never happened. Why not?
OK Kiddo – this might give you some reason to smile.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/…..index.html
I thought I saw something about Joe Strummer passing. If so, Bummer.
Is this true?
Slothrop @ 89
A large Secret Service contingent?
Slothrop @ 89
He’s surrounded by security at all times. There’s a parade of security forces everywhere he moves–from the Naval Observatory, to the White House to his “vacation” home to the airport.
That might be a reason why not.
neurophius @ 81
“Thank you sir, may I have another.”
No “surge”. No escalation of any kind. What part of out of Iraq now don’t they understand?
Montag … nodding …
Lifton was the bible for a group of us who worked against Trident – he really puts you on track. And his writing on survivor guilt was very important to me at a stage when I was working out stuff about my father’s death.
Well then, where’s the story about how he avoids tough questions while hiding behind bodyguards? Where are the news stories about this kind of cowardice?
I want to see a network reporter yelling questions at the guy despite the security. I want to see someone arrested for being aggresive about questioning the Vice President.
Our Washington press corps…”uh, well, gee, that might be unpleasant or something, I don’t know…”
What a bunch of pussies.
Urban Pirate @
91
four years ago, yesterday.
Broken hearts are hard to mend,
I know I’ve had my share,
But life just carries on,
Even when I’m not there
Slothrop @ 97
Sam Donaldson used to do this at every opportunity with Reagan. It made people think Donaldson was Rude or just doing schtick. Reagan got sympathy for putting up ith it.
All for real investigation, but that stuff is show biz.
Patrick, I disagree. The VP is an elected official — it’s not show biz to ask questions. Donaldson was doing his job. I doubt Dick has Ronnie’s ability to make it look good. I want to see facial reactions to tough questions.
Slothrop @ 100
Kinda hard to picture Cheney affably pretending not to be able to hear…
Slothrop @ 97
Any reporter in position to do that is probably afraid he or she will lose his or her precious “access”–and, as a result, perhaps his or her job.
Wimps.
Holy Mary. It’s almost Christmas!
I am running out of rope here. Saving enough for a noose at the Hague.
Slothrop @ 100
I mean the yelling and getting arrested. That’s show biz.
Unless reporters do real homework, all that on-camera questioning is jsut for show. They ask a question, and in a press conference, the prez or a VP just has to run out the clock. The follow-ups, when they get them are lame.
Thw questions are important, but without laying the ground work before those questions are asked, preparing the field for the questions in the public’s mind, the public official’s answer doesn’t matter, whether the answer is yes, no, or that reminds me of a funny story.
Slothrop @ 97
In practical terms, he’s always too far away to even shout at. He’s the most secretive and isolated VP we’ve ever seen, and that’s by design.
We do not even know, for sure, how many people are on his staff (the estimates vary between eighty and 115, and even the lower number is many more than any previous VP). When asked, the press is told, “we don’t give out that information. He does not release any records–of travel expenses, contracts made by his office, etc. Right now, he’s being sued by the AP for the release of his daily logs of meetings, and my guess is that even if the courts agree, he’ll ignore them.
Everywhere he steps is either federal or private property, and his security forces would simply arrest someone trying to break through that security as either trespassing or, worse, as posing a threat to him–when he was campaigning before this past election, someone did manage to walk by him in Colorado and said something disparaging to him about the war. The person was arrested for threatening the VP.
So, given all that, what functional good does it do for a reporter to get arrested? There’s no story to get by being arrested.
The only way any of this gets busted open is if Congress pushes for accountability from his office–and, even then, it will be a battle royal to get anything from them.
Off to a party.
Take messages.
As I watch this fiasco of the “surge” being played out, I keep wondering how the people who turned the bastards out last month actually feel about this. The Holidays with the feel good approach to news really hasn’t asked anyone or so it seems to me. If they go with this escalation, just how pissed off are the masses going to get? Maybe marching in the streets? I remember Grant Park in ChiTown/ Dem convention. Those were some seriously pissed off people out in the streets.
OT: I’m all for separation of church and state, but this is a bit much:
Isflamists
new thread
White Riot upstairs
I want out of Iraq. I want a two-state solution. I want accountability for my countrymen and women’s deaths. I want justice for the crying children in Iraq and here. Anything, and I mean anything less, will not do.
Merry Christmas.
punaise @ 98
Oh jeez. I’m fucking clueless. RIP Joe.
Suppose that the US ‘wins’ this war, but the oceans are acidic, hurricanes wreak havoc on cities and food supplies, and we have increasing resource scarcity. What will we have ‘won’?
Re-read Soros. Re-read John Dean.
Soros connects dots between energy, globalization, outmoded political institutions, international politics, and the economic dangers of poor government policies. That’s what we confront — along with toxins, pollutants, and acidic seas.
The Republican Authoritarians will never, ever admit they lied, tortured, and scammed. The more guilty they are, the more vindictive they become. Take Snidely Whiplash and hand him a cell phone and he’d fit right in with these clods, who got stuck somewhere between 1880 and 1965.
Authoritarians are the LEAST intellectually, psychologically, emotionally, or socially able to grapple with what we confront.
The economic future lies in biofuels, biomedicines, informatics, and related fields. Amoral, secretive, arrogant ideologues are the least qualified members of society to move these technologies forward and develop a new economic base.
We need Captains Kirk and Picard to timewarp back to the 1880s railroad tracks, haul Snidely’s sorry ass before a thorough, compelling investigation, and let the Maiden return to her research into biofuels, while they focus on passing Net Neutrality.
Snidely will end up in jail, wailing he’s innocent.
Assuming that people got a VERY clear picture of how Snidely deliberately, slowly, and cruely tied the Shrieking Maiden to the tracks in the face of the oncoming train –while seeking to extort her knowledge and research leads — his wailing will fall on deaf ears, or perhaps those of his new cellmate, Abramoff.
With any luck, the Clever Maiden will be sunning herself on a sandy, tropical beach enjoying a cool margharita, enjoying the revenues from her biofuels patent, watching colorful fishes swim in non-acidic seas.
Dear Jane,
They must start with at least some small amount of ‘Grace’ in order for that to happen.
Unfortunately, that fails to acknowledge that the whole thing was doomed to fail from the start. It makes it sound as if someone else (Biden? McCain? Clinton?) could have invaded Iraq, set up a puppet government, and had the oil pumping years ago.
It’s not the American people who need the comfort of this fiction. It’s the people in Congress — including about half of the Senate Democrats — who want the cover to say it would have gone down different if only people had listened to them. This is exactly the same scenario that played out as Vietnam was winding down, when the people who said we should never have gone in were exiled to salve the electoral consciences of the Democratic-controlled House and Senate. It’s why people still blame the hippies and the media for “losing” Vietnam rather than the people who got the US involved in the war.
When you jump off a cliff, no amount of flapping (surge!) is going to make you airborne. You’re gonna fall.
“Letting” them have their escalation so we can pin the war on them is immoral idiocy. It only means MORE MURDER. Poor Kevin. Poor Jane! An entire American army in Iraq is about to be sacrificed, and we’re looking for silver linings. I really have to stop reading all these formerly progressive bloggers. Whatever happened to simply being against the war? And even after we won the election…
The mind boggles, the heart is sick.
“There is still a strong strain of “we would’ve won in Viet Nam if only…” because no other narrative emerged to trump it in the pea-sized right wing imagination.”
One of the most telling quotes ever uttered about the Vietnam War, in my view, came from a former member of the Viet Cong several years ago. When asked his opinion about the U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War and why the North Vietnamese (NVA) and the Viet Cong continued fighting after so many had died, he matter-of-factly stated, “We’ve been fighting the Chinese for over a thousand years.”
In other words, if the Communist Chinese suddenly got a wild hair and decided to “colonize” Vietnam, then they would suffer the same fate as the French and the U.S. forces, since the Vietnamese have been fighting “the Chinese for over a thousand years” along the Vietnamese/Chinese border. Guerilla warfare. Political assassinations. Etc. Until the last non-Vietnamese was driven out of Vietnam.
So the neo-con Republican fantasy that we could have “won” in Vietnam if we had just stayed a few more years (or decades) is just that…a fantasy. Just like their fantasy about Iraq and trying to spread any semblance of democracy into countries in the Middle East ruled by autocratic, often-religious nut-job despots. Fantasy. Fantasy. Fantasy.
Delusions like those of the neo-con Republicans only end up getting a whole lot of people killed…while the war profiteers make out like bandits. Oh. Um. Maybe their delusional talk is just a cover for their real motives. Money. And yet a whole lot of people must suffer and often die for all the neo-con blood money they hope to reap. And to think that some of these neo-con Republicans still claim that they are followers of Jesus Christ. NOT!!!
Publicus @
6
So, are you saying that Israel has given the Palestinians their land back and the Palestinians aren’t satisfied?
Asking more people to sacrifice life and limb, loved ones, billions of more dollars and the distinct possibility of an even more serious deterioration of the situation in Iraq to obtain the chance of some sort of absolution is morally and ethically bankrupt and an act of political cowardice. I cannot comprehend the rage I would feel I my child or parent was sacrificed in the name of political futility. Bad enough as it is, such a political equation is mind numbing.
montag @
106
So the thing to do would be to have a congresssional commission to investigate. Grant you he will stone- wall the answers, but it will be in the news that he did NOT ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, and that will be the point brought across. Then the questions of whether he is trying to hide sometime, etc., will start to come.
I think there is a good chance this will happen, and might well be the straw the broke the camel’s back, so to speak.
Food for thought. Bb