Albatross said :
“Rather than let it get that bad, Dems need to produce an actual plan for VICTORY in Iraq, with Victory defined in Democratic terms that the American people will understand.”

That presumes victory is possible. If anyone thinks that a cease fire will work in iraq, then they are not understanding the situation. It is NOT in the best interests of many of the parties to get a cease fire. Sure it helps the US, but not its opponents, who see victory in chaos.

There comes a point where any good outcome for one side or the other does not exist. We have passed that point. Many do not want to realize that. And in terms of leadership, I think I’d respect any party that withdrew us from an unwinnable situation, and re-engaged on a different field, than sticking it out til body counts affects poll numbers and they felt politically covered in leaving.

Tim also makes what I think is a great point – that many of us feel we used our power on at least part of the right people (mostly the Taliban, but some think Saddam as well) and wonder how something that seemed right can now be so bad.

I think it is a basic misunderstanding of the use of power, and the difficulty of defeating a movement in an undeveloped part of the world that has been wracked with violence for 50 years or longer.

To take out just the Taliban, we needed many of the special forces sent to Iraq, we needed Pakistani support and permission to go into the Pakistani tribal areas, and we needed (need) to stay a good long time. Didn’t happen, We got sidetracked, and pulled into a place that required more $, people and diplomacy than we could spare to get any real sense of success. We felt we had beaten the Taliban, and that we’d beaten the Iraqis before. Militarily perhaps, but why we didn’t understand the lessons of the Intifada or Vietnam of the NW Border problems when the British ruled India is beyond me. Only thing that makes any sense is sheer hubris.

That’s going too far into the realm of fantasy.

Lemieux is right. Think of the men and women in the special hell that we’ve made of Iraq right now, and demand withdrawal. Do the right thing and quit obsessing about “how they’ll frame us”.

The question here isn’t so much about withdrawal, which I believe Ackerman, Farley, and Lemieux all support, but about how to handle withdrawal politically in order to minimize damage to the Democratic Party.

Keep the focus on the lead up to the war, the lies that were used to sell the war, as well as the incompetent execution of the war.

Ask lots of questions, subpoena witnesses, get documents released.

It doesn’t really matter that the Democrats don’t have any good options on the question of withdrawal. nobody does

Just keep hitting the Republicans over and over again with the fact that they went to war based on a pack of lies. They cooked the books on intelligence, they falsely linked Iraq to 9/11.

The public will eat it up because nobody wants to believe they were wrong to support the war. Telling them they were duped and lied to, and then the execution was screwed up is a much easier sell.

To Octopibingo #122, when did you get back or when are you going to basic training? Me? 13F 87′-89′. Step up and lead by example.

Haven’t lost it yet, though the Democrats are doing everything they can in that respect. Vietnam redux, indeed.

But, mimicking their heroes, the French, the Democrats won’t lost, just surrender.

Bush’s intent is to force the hand of a Democratic Congress to cut off funding, thereby recreating a scenario ala Vietnam when the theme of “they sold out the troops” worked to perfection for a generation, convincing millions of idiots that only Republicans ever had any love for the military.

That’s the “longview” of all this, and one that Bush is very much aware of (comma anyone?) – and for him, to come out of Iraq eventually with nothing to show for it would be far easier to get over than having that combined with being unable to even trap a Dem Congress into looking bad over it.

Hence the push for a larger military (AFTER YEARS OF THE RUMMY TALK ABOUT A SMALLER MORE AGILE FORCE)…force the Democrats’ hand by insisting more is spent and see how long they can hold out.

In Bush’s mind right now it’s: “Will they hold out and roll the dice on winning in 2008, or can I somehow force them into actions that can be spun into a storyline about how ‘Democrats will not allow for victory – They are not willing to provide the resources that are essential to achieving victory.’

Stay with that idea in the weeks to come and see if it becomes a factor. Right now the generals are against Bush’s ideas, but keep in mind that promotions to fill those spots are in the air, and if Colon Powell is a great military blah blah blah, then you can bet your ass they’ve got plenty more where that came from…it goes like this:

“The big cheese has his eyes set on you, but he’s not about to place loyalty and reward you with this post if you’re not ON BOARD“

This part of the game…Bush has proven he understands it. The bullshit power politics game…whether his mojo is already spent up or not remains to be seen.

I am so sick to death of all the game-playing and “strategizing.” I don’t give a fuck what kind of damage withdrawal from Iraq will cause the Democratic party because PEOPLE ARE DYING EVERY DAY FOR NO GODDAMN REASON.

We need to withdraw immediately because the war is wrong. To hell with the Democratic party.

I sympathize with your frustration, but there are two problems. First, there’s not enough people in favor of immediate withdrawal to force it to happen. So, instead of merely asserting that it needs to happen, you/we need to find a way to persuade people.

Second, even if enough of a groundswell developed to force a withdrawal, the GOP will be happy to watch the aftermath, proclaim the withdrawal-now advocates responsible, and use that argument to elect a Republican president in 2008 or 2012 (supported by millions of now-guilty supporters of withdrawal) who may well take us into another war. How comforting will your being right feel then?

In The Fall, Albert Camus tells a parable about a

… little Frenchman at Buchenwald who insisted on registering a complaint with the clerk, himself a prisoner, who was recording his arrival. A complaint? The clerk and his comrades laughed: “Useless, old man. You don’t lodge a complaint here.” “But you see, sir,” said the little Frenchman, “my case is exceptional. I am innocent!“

Your case is exceptional, John — you’re right about the Iraq war.

So, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to think about how to persuade others who don’t agree with you, or are you just going to wallow uselessly in your rightness?

Continue on with your dinner conversation.

We need to withdraw immediately because the war is wrong. To hell with the Democratic party.