
So, Dick Cheney is likely to take the stand in the Libby case. But what does that mean, in terms of testimony? We've discussed that a little bit, but I wanted to take it a step or two further, by highlighting some very astute reader comments. First, this one from Caoimhin Laochdha:
While Cheney may “be able to have a lawyer present,” his attorney won’t be able to do anything other than sit back and watch. No smirks, hand signals or head nods either.As a non-party, Cheney has no right to an attorney and the only participating attorneys will be Libby’s or Fitz (and maybe a ? or two by the Judge). Libby’s attorneys likely won’t risk speaking (directly) w/Cheney pre-trial because any hint that they have and those discussions are subject to cross examination since no testimonial privilege is in place between Cheney and Libby’s attorneys.
Unlike in the grand jury room, at the Libby criminal trial the prosecuting attorney has another attorney representing the interests of the defendant, who will challenge what the prosecutor is doing. However, neither advocate has Cheney’s interest at stake. And in fact, Fitz may have an interest in making Cheney look good on some questions and Libby’s attorney may have incentives to make Cheney look bad on some issues.
That could make for some very interesting back and forths on the direct examination -- and even more intriguing back and forth on cross.
I've been promising you all some detail on the differences between direct examination versus cross examination of witnesses. Essentially, direct examination is where an attorney representing a party on the same side/perspective a a particular witness asks that witness questions. The questions must be open-ended, cannot be leading (as in giving the witness any hint as to the answer), and must be fact-oriented, to the extent possible.
What you want as an attorney asking questions of a witness on direct examination is to guide the witness, step by step, into telling the story for the jury -- in their own words, not yours -- so that the witness lays out the narrative for you. You do this by structuring your questions in such a way that the answers you anticipate lay the story out a piece at a time. This can be extremely effective, especially if you have a witness who is honest and open with the jury about all of the facts.
But it can be very tricky when you have a witness who is squirmy, dishonest, hostile or, even worse, holding things back which can then be picked apart by opposing counsel on cross-examination.
Cross examination is where opposing counsel gets to ask questions -- often very leading questions which, when structured carefully, can be asked in such a way that there is really no good answer for that particular witness. There is an article on the ABA website that hits the high point on this:
The closing argument is the last occasion for the jury to learn why they should find liability and award substantial damages. A good closing argument reiterates the theme of the case, gives a summary of the facts, and tells the jury what it should decide. It is argumentative in that it states inferences which should be drawn from the facts and therefore why certain facts should be believed over others. It is an opportunity for the attorney to tell the jury the story they should believe. Because the story is in conflict, the story is not really important. It is the credibility of the attorney trying to convince the jury what to believe that’s important. Credibility of the attorney is enhanced by use of actual and demonstrative evidence, which are essential to the art of persuasion.A good cross-examination is similar. It makes the witness admit or focus on the plaintiff’s theme of the case. It tells the jury what it should decide. It is argumentative. It states inferences which should be drawn from the facts and therefore helps to persuade the jury which facts it should believe. The attorney, not the witness, is the star. Use of actual or demonstrative evidence may be vital.
Thus, the good cross-examiner asks long, narrative, leading questions. The witness answers yes or no. The attorney stands in the center of the court room, often directly in front of the jury, so that the argument/question of the attorney is the focus. The witness is subservient, almost unnecessary. The attorney is paramount, the star. The attorney says a lot, the witness says little.
To be sure, the attorney must argue in a question and answer format. But that is simple. The attorney makes the argument directly to the jury, just as will be done later in the closing argument, and then the attorney turns to the witness and asks “isn’t that true?” or “you agree with that, don’t you?” or “that’s a fair statement, isn’t it?”
The very heart and soul of an effective cross-examination is in selecting those arguments where it doesn’t matter whether the witness agrees or not. If the witness agrees, great. If the witness doesn’t agree, the jury will still believe the argument for other reasons.
There is a point in this with which I do disagree -- and strongly. The attorney is not the star of cross-examination if it is done well. It is the facts that shine out, and shine out strongly, in a well-done cross. And the fact that the person on the stand is a prevaricating smarm merchant who has spent all of direct examination trying to manipulate the jury by telling half-truths and attempting to produce sleights of hand with the evidence.
Of course, that is only true if you have a witness on the stand which fits that prevaricating, manipulator of the facts scoundrel bill. Since we are talking about Dick Cheney in this particular instance, I'll let you be the judge on whether that will come up for cross-examination.
The thing to remember about direct and cross is this: opposing counsel is limited on cross-examination to asking questions which are related only to those issues which are raised in direct examination. Nothing more, nothing less. But witnesses on direct cannot be led by the attorney asking the questions, and they do tend to ramble on occasion, which can lead to a lot of interesting avenues and opened doors for opposing counsel to peer into on cross.
Which leads me to an interesting vignette that James Robinson posted in the comments:
Cross-examining someone who’s stonewalling is actually pretty easy. David Boies did it to Bill Gates in the Microsoft trial: Upon realizing that Gates was going to answer every question with “I don’t know,” Boies began crafting more and more telling questions that he knew would elicit that answer after consideration, forcing Gates to say “I don’t know” over and over again. At one point, it took Gates over 20 minutes to finally answer “I don’t know.” The judge dismissed his testimony as unreliable and seriously considered taking Gates down for perjury.The best thing that could happen is Cheney believing that he could lie or bluff his way through cross-examination with someone as careful as Fitzgerald. I think it’s more likely that he’ll stall and stonewall so as not to give Fitz any handholds; but as Gates learned, that’s not a foolproof strategy.
Which leads me to the final nugget, from LHP, from the comments that is well worth considering in the context of these particular actors, and Dick Cheney especially:
I actually wasn’t thinking of authorizing lying to the GJ, but now that you mention it, could be.Back in the 80’s, Adnan Khashoggi and a retired Israeli general (why can’t I remember this guy’s name?) were indicted for violating a US ban on selling arms to Iran. The Israeli General claimed that he had been in meetings with Poppy Bush (then VP, former CIA Director) and that he (the Israeli general) had been “authorized” by Bush to sell the weapons to Iran.
In fact the weapons, in some cases turned out to be US weapons. They were being “laundered” through a couple of front companies and had false information about who the end purchaser was supposed to be. In at least one chain of invoices, IIRC, the end recipient of the arms was supposed to be Israel.
The fact that an former Israelii General was part of the transaction helped to disguise the fact that the arms were, in fact, going to Iran.
The general wanted to call Poppy Bush to the stand so that he could be confronted about having “authorized” the violation of US law.
At the time, the AUSA prosecuting the case thought it was greymail. And grandstanding–trying to capture press attention with a bright shiny VP.
She litigated the shit out of resisting the defense attempt to compel Poppy to testify. She had no idea that there might be any truth to these claims. She won. Poppy never got called to the stand. If memory serves, the subpoena was quashed.
This particular defense is well known to the Bushies.
[edited to correct some typos]
You do not claw your way to the top of the power heap in Washington without stepping on a lot of toes along the way. Dick Cheney has been around this block a number of times -- and knows the ropes altogether too well, some might say. Patrick Fitzgerald has stared down terrorists and mafia dons -- and Dick Cheney is small time compared to what some of those folks are willing to do with their own, bare hands. This is going to be one battle worth watching, though.
Don't know about you guys, but I bought some extra popcorn...ringside seats, anyone?
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FITZ!
PEANUT! for her first foray into the blogosphere today.
Evening, T-. How’s tricks?
Lol Jacqrat — she was typing as I was grabbing my bag to run out to the store. hehehe Too funny.
Yes, that was the coveted zed. [bows deeply]
Hi Christy. Hope the Peanut is feeling better today.
Tricks?
The Peanut is much better today, thanks. For which her momma is most grateful. “How’s tricks?” equals “how are things with you?” around these parts. Maybe it’s not a whole south thing. *g*
From what I could tell, the ‘nut doesn’t fall far from the tree! Looking forward to reading many more missives from the missy… when the “muse” strikes, of course.
Well… I never thought I’d here myself saying this. A Republican is much smarter that a Democrat on Iraq.
“Scarborough has made a definite turn-around on Bush over the past year, but it hasn’t been as evident as it was on Wednesday’s Scarborough Country.”
The dumb Senator Demo from NY, I’m referring to is… guess who?
Yeah, that was a new one. Everything is great this holiday season.
Have to put together middle Little T-’s mickey mouse trike tonight, so the den doesn’t turn into Santa’s all-nite workshop on Christmas eve.
I still think Cheney’s going to flip everyone the bird on the stand.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 6
It works in Ohio anyway.
egregious at 10 — how are things with you today? We are fast approaching the shortest day, which means incrementally more sunlight in the days to come for you. :)
“Robin Hayes has the solution to the Iraq war: have our soldiers convert all Muslims to Christianity.
Having won the election by only a hair’s width and almost getting himself kicked out of Congress seems to have had some profound psychological effects on poor Mr. Hayes. A speech that flip-floppin’ Robin gave last week at the Concord Rotary Club seems to prove he has finally gone off the deep end.”
These guys are nuts. Absolutely nuts.
Happy Solstice!
Have we really had any clue yet on what Cheney will testify to?
I mean, are they really going to run him in there to tell the jury that Libby was busy?
IIRC, he’s on the hook for false statements (to the FBI agents) and then for lying to the GJ, right?
Christy et al - if Fitz ‘knew’ (or believed) that Libby had lied to the FBI agents, is he under any compulsion to try to find out why in front of the GJ?
In other words- if he lied and said he never talked to (blank) is Fitz likely to confront him with that in front of the GJ? i.e. Fitz: Did you discuss Plame with Fleischer on xx/xx/xx. Libby- ????
If Libby “lied” to the GJ, doesn’t that means he didn’t answer “I don’t remember”, I don’t recall’ etc….
Gotta love Christy after sundown…love to stay and chat but ’tis the season.
Off for another round of holiday cheer!
I’ll toast the solstice for you, egregious.
I think egregious will be OK. After all, she is Cherokee.
looks like I was wrong when I said I didn’t think cheney is going to testify.
I’m gonna be stubbern and stick to the old “I’ll believe it when it happens”
anyway, very interesting as we come around to the final stretch
Steve at 14 — My best guess at this point — because there has been no proffer to my knowledge that has been made public as to scope of testimony — is that this is in regard to the multiple NIE selective disclosures that Libby made to various reporters at Cheney’s urging.
by the way
any predictions whether or not Wilson is going to win his motion not to appear?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 12
Well, it *is* more humane than the right-wingers’ kill-them-all alternative…
perris at 19 — no idea on that one. There will have to be a proffer and/or argument made as to what issues the defense intends to raise with him. I tend to think the Judge may be skeptical about him being called, simply as a means of raising a fuss by Libby’s defense team given the particular charges in the indictment. But it will depend on what Team Libby is trying to push with him — and how well Wilson’s attorneys are able to blow through the smokescreen to rebut the need to call him at all.
Christy,
Referring to your title “Ringside seating, anyone?” - does anyone here know what courtroom has been selected for the trial, how big it is, any special rules on who attends? My son will be in DC this Spring as part of his HS senior year “Close-Up” program. I’d like to see if he can get into the trial, if possible.
I give cheney no credit at all, I think he’s going to crumble, he has no self control, and I think his alleged inteligence is far over estimated
fitz is going to be playing handball with a toddler in my mind
Christy-
Okay, so Dick testifies about the NIE disclosures- but he’s not on trial for that, right? And maybe it ties into how busy Libby was, but so Cheney authorized him to leak the NIE stuff, that doesn’t change the facts on the ground re false staements to the FBI and lying to the GJ, right?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 11
Thanks for asking. It’s been a very difficult couple of weeks, and likely will be this way til about the 27th-28th. I’ve been trying to keep on an even keel emotionally, not so easy.
One way to judge where my brain is: puzzles. This morning I was having trouble doing a puzzle while looking at the answer. That’s kind of pathetic. Better soon, much better by mid-January.
A big shoutout to all you other seasonal depression people out there.
Christy Hardin Smith @
4
Christy - in which thread was she posting, please? I missed it.
steve at 24 — that’s correct. A lot of what Team Libby will be doing is throwing up “shiny objects” as LHP calls them, to distract the jury and take their eye off the ball in terms of the very narrow charges on which this indictment was brought. What Fitz and his team will be doing is bringing the jury’s eyes right back to the ball, time and time again. A focused prosecution team can do that well when there is a substantial amount of evidence to repeat via multiple witnesses, over and over again. Here’s hoping…
Oklahoma kiddo @ 16
:)
Hey cousin.
Stephen at 26 — I think it was in Pach’s thread earlier today, if I remember correctly. She was just having fun with the keyboard — don’t think we actually got a word into the whole string. *g*
Christy Hardin Smith @ 27
I’m sure Fitz can separate the deed from the chaff.
Jacqrat and T- @ 5:10 pm -
This year’s December solstice will occur at 7:22 PM Eastern Standard Time this evening.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 29
Thanks - I still haven’t had a chance to read the comments in that thread all the way through.
Reprinted by popular demand:
.,mnbvvccxxzz/.m,nbnbvcxzzzzpo]p[
(Peanut typing…)
egregious @ 33
forgot the bolockquote tag
go back and edit please
egregious @ 33
A regular chip off the ol block. *g*
Btw, She types better than I do!
perris @
23
Don’t know if I’d go that far, but I think Cheney’s problem is that, surrounded mostly by sycophants and those who are willing to defer to him (Russert, Matthews, Hume, et al), this will be a different world, where he isn’t the last word - the judge is, and where he has rules to follow (a) that he can’t change on a whim and (b) for which there are penalties if he doesn’t follow them.
Fitz is a bit more dogged than the DC MSM/punditocracy, methinks.
Christy —
Peanut’s punctuation skills are far more advanced than miniralphbon’s, who turned 20 months yesterday. My wife and I call him Scooter, btw. Libby himself may be beyond redemption, but there’s no reason not to rehabilitate a perfectly serviceable nickname.
Back briefly to the topic of keyboard gibberish, my cat walked on my keyboard once while I was writing a medical videoscript. At the time, I was writing a scene for a live-action dramatization of a man having an ischemic stroke. I wasn’t going to write dialog for the man’s loss of coherent speech, but the cat’s tapdance fell right at that spot, so I left it in.
My cat’s writing actually made it through one round of medical/legal review at a major pharmaceutical firm before being deleted.
Mutant Poodle @ 36
there it is, you hit the nail right on the head
everyone defers to him…he looses control when they don’t…witness the exchange with leahy, a sitting vice president actually told a senator to “fuck off”
all the fitz has to do is challenge his authority and he crumbls
perris @ 38
Now if only we can get Fitz to cross-examine Dubya…
hey, Eli! long time no see?
steve @ 14
My guess, and it’s only a guess. Is that at a minimum Irving wants Cheney for the “I’m too sexy for my shirt” portion of his defense.
Don’t forget. Part of Irving’s memeory defense is that he is a very important (too sexy) person who’s mind was occupied with talking to and interacting with other very important persons (also too sexy) about things that are WAY WAY more important than, what was that woman’s name again? Blame? Flame? Tame?
So, to prove he’s too sexy for his shirt/too important to rememer piddling details about this Valeria person, he needs some other very important people to lend some glamor. To buttress his claims of glamorous, sexy very important personess.
He wants to distrat the jury with very important people hoping that they will pay more attention to the testimony of household names b/c the jurors will be so starstruck that their attetnion will be diverted from the mundane testimony of mere FBI agents and secretaries and , you know, little people with unsexy shirts.
Christy- thanks for the responses-
know can one of you lawyers tell me this- if Libby had just answered “I don’t remember”, (in front of the GJ)wouldn’t that probably get him out from the perjury charge?
I can ‘understand’ the false staements to teh FBI- if he was reallythat busy, and doesn’t remember…But for it to be perjury, they had to ask him about it, AND he needed to deny it, right?
And that’s why (IMH-(nonlaywerly)- 0) Libby’s toast. All the shiny objects won’t overcome Fleischer et al getting on the stand and saying ‘yes we talked about Plame on xx/xx/xx” as Libby continues to deny it…Or at best says NOW that he doesn’t remember it…
Am I totally off-base, if he’d left himself some wiggle room in the GJ, doesn’t that cut the legs out of the perjury charges?
egregious @ 33
Wow! That looks almost as complex as some of the motion formulas I had to commit to memory in Physics.
Yo, peanut… try this:
Δs = V0Δt + ½aΔt2
:-)
Christy - A few thoughts on cross-exam. An old federal defender from Chicago named McCarthy (first name lost to jet lag at the moment)teaches a CLE course that I have found works. He says that cross if for the lawyer to testify. The witness is just there to say “yes”. he advocates short statements (You saw a green car). This style really favors the prepared examiner, so if Fitz cross exams Dead Eye it should be pretty cool to watch. Too bad it’s in Fed Court so we won’t have live TV coverage.
I’ll have butter and light salt on my popcorn please.
taking daddy to dinner guys…c u L8ter
punaise @ 40
Hiya, pun. Been on vacation and haven’t been online much. Currently on a brief vacation from my vacation, tho.
Mutant Poodle @ 36
Although I’d love to see Cheney go ballistic on the stand (btw, any word on if cameras will be allowed in the courtroom?), I think he’ll maintain his composure throughout…while getting levelled by Fitz, anyway. Remember the memory expert-that’s what Cheney has to look forward to.
Ed*ard Teller @ 22
I don’t know which courtroom, but I have heard that the amount of available space will be an issue. The press is going to want a big reserved area. There are evidently more parts of the trial support teams than can fit in the well, so part of the spectator’s gallery may have to be reserved for them. Usually the trial teams get to reserve a few pews for their own family and friends to come watch them in action. Considering how huge Irving’s trial team is, there may not be much space left for the “general” public.
You can call the the District Executive’s Office (it should be listed on the DC circuit court’s website) and/or the Marshall’s service for that district (they supervise courthouse security) and they may be able to tell you if there will be a seating tickets lottery or some other method for queying up for tickets.
perris @ 23
I don’t think he will crumble. I think he will lose his temper. There may even be shouting?
Thanks to you too, LHP, I’ve enjoyed reading your ‘takes’ on this too, BTW…
But here’s my question- if he WAS too sexy for his shirt, where was his sexiness in front of the GJ…
I just keep coming back to the idea that for him to commit perjury in front of the GJ, he had to ‘lie’ about convo’s Fitz had in the bag…Not just say he doesn’t remember them, but deny they happened at all… So he was too sexy to remember (for the FBI) talking to little people like Flesicher or the CIA guy…By the time you’re re-called in front of the GJ, don’t you MAYBE give yourself a little wiggle room…”Fleischer? I dont RECALL a conversation, but I guess It could have happened, I’m so sexy that I only remeber convo’s with Dubya, Dick and foreign heads of state”…
looseheadprop @ 48
Fixed your typo.
Dammit, now I’m picturing Scooter strutting around and singing “I’m too sexy for the truth”…
f(x)=y
egregious @ 33
I like that Peanut’s mastered the ][. The NYT first used those about [danGerstein] — so Lieberblogging may indeed be in her future!
looseheadprop @
48
looseheadprop,
Thanks for the help. I think they go in March. I’d love to go with them, but won’t be able to take that much time away from work. Last time I was in DC was 1969.
Eli @ 52
Cheney: 88 lies about .44 magnum
oh, yes, please, shouting!!
…and a reprimimand from Judge Walton.
…and more shouting.
…and contempt.
…and a night in the DeeCee jail to cool his gout-slippered heels!
steve @ 50
Libby didn’t say he didn’t recall a conversation. Libby MADE UP conversations that never occurred and said that he first learned the name Valerie Plame from a reporter (I think Russert?). However, Fitz later established that Libby had learned her name way before that at the W/H.
THEN Libby claimed he forgot that he knew who she was (she’s one of the little people after all and a too sexy guy like him can’t be expected to keep track of the plebians after all)and THOUGHT he was hearing it for the first tme when the reporter told it to him.
Only that reporter didn’t know it yet on the day Scooter says the reporter told it to him.
His story is so farfetched because it does not merely invovle him forgetting, He made up conversations that never occured.
THAT my dear, fits anyone’s definition of perjury. You don’t need to be a lawyer to no you don’t make shit up out of whole clothe and tell it to the Grand Jury instead of telling truth
Eli @ 51
Laughing too hard to type!
No shooting. They have metal detectors at the door to the courthouse.
Just maybe some shouting
dang superscript & subscript tags diint werk
phooey
:(
Eli @ 52
And it’s going to go around and around in your head for hours and you will be mad at me
Ed*ard Teller @ 55
You think this trial will go on into March? It’s starting Jan 15th. I know Ted Wells loves to talk, but Jeez, March?
looseheadprop @ 60
Actually, I like the song. I just don’t want to picture Scooter in a black mesh muscle shirt.
I still think that there will pardons before the trial. George H.W. Bush pardoned the Iran-Contra trial away on Chrismas Eve in 1992. There may soon be pardons from Bush Jr. too.
I predict at least one Friedman unit.
Bustednuckles @ 64
The trial is in its last throes! A verdict is just around the corner, we just need to add more jurors!
Bustednuckles @ 65
I thought a Friedman unit was 6 mos.
Hey Eli!
Nice to hear from you.
What’s new?
Bustednuckles @ 65
I don’t care how long it takes, provided it doesn’t result in a freed man.
Sorry sweety, I forgot to add;
/snark. :)
Eli, they’ll have to [gasp] re-instate the draft to get enough jurors!
LOL
egregious @ 67
Hi, egrege!
I can’t even *remember* what’s new. I finished an Insane Project From Hell at work, and am taking the entire second half of December off, mostly in SC (just returned from) and NY/NJ. Oh, and I got a promotion but no raise as of yet…
I’m really hungry. I want the huge enchiladas in this whole Plame mess. I won’t even mention Iraq and Lebanon. Some people deserve some serious prosecution.
lhp at 41 Irving wants Cheney for the “I’m too sexy for my shirt” portion of his defense.
lol!
Was very interested to hear your Dad was a Teamster. That explains a lot. There is a special kind of power in your work. I always look forward to both your family stuff and your superior intellectual arguments.
Bustednuckles @ 70
Awhh , you called me “sweetie” (blushing)
Ed*ard Teller @ 22
Good for him; a friend of mine works at the Close-Up foundation; it’s a very cool program.
Eli @
66
I think the trial will last into early April. If it starts on time.
So, that would be .6 FUs? Two last shots? One and a half last throe?
Of course, when Cheney is involved, it is bound to go through at least one FU….
Eli @ 72
Wo. Lot to think about. V funny that you are on a vacation from your vacation. I definitely understand about your IPFH.
and,
WOO! Congrats about your promotion, and here’s hoping a big fat pay increase comes along soonest. If you do get a raise will you give out cookies here? :)
Thanks for the court info, lhp. Since I’m local, I’ve gotta see if I can get in for at least a bit of it, just to be able to tell my hypothetical grandchildren I was there.
looseheadprop @ 61
Who has that picture of Eli? You know the one I mean.
egregious @ 74
Thank you. My old man was one tough nut. And one of those spare the rod spoil the child types. I had to learn early how to stand up for myself or there would have been no living with him.
Consequently, all my sisters and I grew up to be very willing to speak truth to power. And willing to take the lumps that come from doing so.
egregious @ 77
Thanks! I should find out about the raise in, well, about a Friedman. I’ve gone from being just past the midpoint, to being just above the minimum for the new pay grade, so I’m hoping that entitles me to a juicier raise than usual.
Cookies for all!
As a former DeeCee resident called for juries both “local” and Federal, I can tell you that Ted Wells is quaking in his boots. This is not a jury pool likely to favor anything or anyone associated with BushCo. I know you lawyers here are probably worried about Judge Walton’s admonishment, but IANAL, so I’ll say it: Scooter’s ability to get a fair trial is severely hindered here. I’m amazed — and I think it’s ground for an incompetent counsel appeal — that Wells hasn’t filed a change of venue motion based solely on the election results for 2000 and 2004 in DeeCee. The jury pool is hopelessly prejudiced against Scooter, and BigTime too.
If all goes well, we should be in for quite a show. But, there’s a lot of room for slipups that might derail a trial - starting with pardons and ending with BigTime getting promoted by invoking XXV Section 4.
just saying
OT.
Our good friend Taylor Marsh could use a little Christmas cheer.
I know I’m going to kick a little her way.
See here;
http://taylormarsh.com/
grounds for an appeal….
egregious @ 79
This one?
Ed Teller
I feel a betting pool coming on. This could be a fun thread, maybe on a weekend when we tend to get a little sillier.
What about a thread where we all make our predictions of how long the trial is going to last?
BUT, you got to show the math. You need to lay out how long you are estimating for the various components. For example how many hours (or days) do you think Cheney will be on the stand?
Right now, unless I hear more info that changes my mind, I give him less that 1/2 day. Maybe less than 2 hours. If he only there about instant declassification, definatley less than 2 hours.
Anyway, a little contest predicting end date might be fun.
If we’re starting a pool, I’ll take never as the start date.
W’s new years re
svolutions:1. war on iran
2. conscription
3. lock up the rest of the aliens
4. pardon scooter
5. net non-neutrality
6. rapture
TeddySanFran @ 83
Teddy, Incompetent counsel appeals involve counsel appearing in court while itnoxicated, counsel who does not communicate with the client, counsel who are disbarred, counsel who fail to cross examinwitnesses and don’t offer any witnesses on behalf of the defense. Stuff like that.
Nobody is going to take an appeal alleging that 4 of the most respected law firms in the country (It’s not just Wells here guys) could not amoung themselves collectively provide Libby with adequate representation.
A bad strategic decision, even a fatal one, does not= ineffective assistance of counsel.
It’s one of those legal concepts, like insanity defense, that don’t mean what the words seem to say.
TeddySanFran @ 88
You forgot nukes - or is that part of #6?
Badwater @ 64
Michael Isikoff on Hardball mentioned this afternoon that the christmas pardon list was released this morning. No Libby pardon, yet.
lhp - I just got back from a CLE video replay for corp counsel and it was interesting to have the hindsight aspect. The speakers were ‘knives drawn’ over the Thompson memo. One, an ex-Starr cohort, waxed almost poetic and definitely indignant about how awful the Thompson memo was.
***************
The only thing I really care about, if Cheney testifies, would be to hear him say that it was actually George W. Bush who made the conscious decision to allow the NIE to be surreptitiously politicized and cherrypicked.
But I’m not sure they will get to go there. If they do, I’ll wish I had been there to hear it.
looseheadprop @
87
I first came to fdl because I read it was THE place for what we’re discussing right now - the sliming of Valerie Plame and Joseph Wilson. It certainly is that and much more.
That being said, I’ve got lawyerphobia. I’ve always run my businesses, government departments, quasi-government entities in ways which relentlessly sought to avoid legal problems. But in the early 1980s I had to hire a string of attorneys. I finally won, but have since avoided thinking about the law as much as possible. But, knowing what little I know, I’ll play - trial ends April 12, 2007.
One thing I did learn back when I was going through lawyer hell in the early 80s: If you have to hire a criminal defense attorney, get the best murder attorney within 1,000 miles. That way, if things go downhill for you, you don’t have to go shopping again.