
Media Bistro reports that Time magazine will be laying off two dozen employees including some senior staff. Unfortunately, none of them is Joe Klein. Nope, these layoffs target the consumer marketing department. Apparently, managing editor Richard Stengel is sticking to his plan as outlined in the WaPo last May:
Stengel, 51, said that he sees Time, the top-selling newsmagazine, as "a guide through the media chaos" and that he hopes to hire and develop more "star writers" in the mold of columnist Joe Klein. As a "writer's editor," he said, "I'd like us to have a stronger point of view about things."
Ah, yes, and what greater champion of "a stronger point of view" could we have than Joe Klein, the man whose moral compass is so wonky that he gets lost in the bathtub? Well, clearly Stengel's plan is reaping the whirlwind if they're having to do a set of personnel cuts right before Christmas like this.
Funny, I was just thinking about Joe Klein today. Atrios pointed me to a Greg Sargent piece that details Joke Line's latest about-face on the Iraq War.
Sargent:
As Atrios has noted, six months ago Klein wrote this:
What can the Democrats do? They can play politics or be responsible. The political option is to embrace "cut and run"; call for an immediate withdrawal, as Kerry did; and hope the public is so sick of Bush and sick of the war that it will punish the g.o.p. in the fall. But embracing defeat is a risky political strategy, especially for a party not known for its warrior ethic. In fact, the responsible path is the Democrats' only politically plausible choice: they will have to give yet another new Iraqi government one last shot to succeed.
Right. So, in other words, six months ago to call for a withdrawal from Iraq was to "cut and run" and "embrace defeat", a course of action Joe painted as "political" and slightly less palatable than eating a litter of live kittens. To Klein's thinking at the time, the only "responsible" way to quit Iraq was to take another massive gamble on yet another makeshift Iraqi government.
Kleiny's such a mensch to carry all that heavy water for the Republicans, isn't he? With "democrats" like Joe Klein, why on earth does Tom DeLay need a blog?
Well, somewhere in the intervening six months, Klein has suffered a sea change in his views on Iraq, but buries the evidence in the closing paragraphs of his November 25th column:
JOE KLEIN "EMBRACES DEFEAT," CALLS FOR WITHDRAWAL FROM IRAQ.
At least, that's what it seems like Joe Klein has now done. Check out these passages buried in his latest column just posted on Time magazine's site:
And so we have reached the point where there is only one meaningful decision left for George W. Bush in Iraq: what to do with our troops there.… Now, finally, the uniformed brass seem poised to speak more candidly. But that doesn't make a military solution to this disaster any more plausible. "You know, we're trained to complete the mission," a senior military officer told me. "And that's our reflex reaction, to come up with a can-do plan—'Here's how you fix it, sir!' But we may lack perspective now. The situation may be reaching the point of no return." Indeed, the best advice for the military to give the President at this point may not be how to "win" in Iraq—but how to withdraw creatively…
Are you sure you want to say that, Mr. Klein? What will your bipartisan (translation: "Republican Owned and Operated") buddies on the cocktail weenie circuit say about your rush to Cut and Run and Let the Terrorists Win? Did you mention this to your BFF Joe Lieberman before he went over to Iraq with St. John of Arc to swan around the Green Zone and call for more troops?
I guess we should give credit where credit is due and celebrate Mr. Klein's arrival at the Reality Based table on the issue of Iraq, but I'm not sitting next to him. We should probably just set aside a group of chairs for Klein, Wonkette, and Andrew Sullivan. The three of them can get tanked on appletinis and talk Time shop while they congratulate themselves on being so much better and smarter than everyone else that their magazine would completely shut down without them, and then what would all of us hapless peons do without these fine, estimable opinionati to tell us what to think?
Actually, come to think of it, if those three are coming to the table, I think I'm just going to stay home and order in. I had crap for lunch, thanks.



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Fitz Again
Funny, I’ve always thought of Klein as a fart in a whirlwind.
He is why I cancelled my scrip.
near frist!
actually, after reading that, I think I like ‘near Fitz’ much better….
T,
That table is needing many chairs. The wingnuts are eating their young to distance themselves from BushCo’s disaster.
Although Pelosi says that Impeachment is off the table, look for the Old Guard Repugs to start the purge of BushCo.
“withdraw creatively”? That’s hot! Joe Klein. Political Renaissance Man in reverse.
I don’t even want to guess what “withdraw creatively” might mean. Maybe the troops all dress in clown suits so any insurgents shooting at their backs are laughing too hard to aim straight? What the hell is Klein talking about?
since when is Liarman a military strategist?
Who cares about Klein? Really.
Does anyone believe him or any of the other clowns who were for the war before they were against it?
Is he really credible? Or is Time going to join the WaPo in a death spiral?
I think that to “Withdraw Creatively” entails a bit of interpretive dance on the battlefield, followed by a session of constructing papier-mache models of your frustration.
seriously, within the business, klein has no credibility. he’s a joke.
and if that’s the path stengel thinks time needs to take — the so-called “voices” angle — it’s not going to build the subscription base.
time and all of the newsweeklies have been outgunned. not so much by the dailies, but yes friends, by the internet. the one thing they used to bring to the table was analysis of a week’s events. now, they ar eoutgunned, outanalyzed, outvoiced by HUNDREDS of intelligent commentators on a cycle that replenishes every few hours.
the weeklies cannot hold onto their readers, and they cannot hold onto their advertisers.
type a 30 on them, they’re done.
Pelosi is starting to seriously tick me off anyway. There was a clip of her on TDS tonight blathering away indignantly about the Iraqi people. “Look we gave them freedom, and they’re just using it to kill each other.”
Lady, I got news for ya. Whatever we gave them wasn’t freedom. Unless you count freedom from jobs, safety, food, water and electricity.
No. What we gave them looks more like one of the middle circles of Hell.
I keep reading about this Time magazine. I can’t quite place it. I seem to recall that my dad used to have a subscription back in the 1950’s and that the main theme was the genious of John Foster Dulles and that Clair Booth Luce saved Italy from the Red Menace.
But that was back in the 50’s. I’m stunned to learn that Time continues to be…what do they call it…published?
Joe Klein. What schools do these guys come out of? My Siamese cat can write better.
Perhaps Joe-Bama won’t be far behind in calling for a creative withdrawal?
Maybe he will cloak his change of mind with his trademarked moral unctuousness?
But then he will vote for $100 billion more for a failed war… not cheap!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 14
Oooh!! Do you have photos of this literary lion of a cat?
TRex @ 16
It’s a Siamese. It writes under a psuedonym while hiding under the bed, and God help your ass if you try to get it to come out, let alone take a picture.
My two Siamese have flat refused to learn to operate a computer, so not only do they never answer my emails, they’re useless when it comes to writing a blog post.
Ungrateful bitchez.
TRex @ 16
Gazillions.
TRex @
10
{funny}
Reese Witherspoon on getting divorced:
I hope she doesn’t mean that like Britney apparently meant it.
Can we see?
Joe Klein, “star writer.” Brought to you by the same mucky-mucks who designated me as 2006 Person of the Year and sent me a shiny mirror on the cover of the latest issue so that I could preen at myself.
But I was having a bad hair day. So I made three resolutions for 2007: Cancel subscriptions to Time, Newsweek, and the unutterably awful San Diego Union-Tribune.
Thereby getting the New Year off to a good start.
Joe Klein, and people like him, with their black-and-white view of everything, their exaggerated slogans, “cut and run”, “embrace defeat”, leave themselves no wiggle room at all.
I don’t expect Bush or any of the war-lovers to embrace defeat. But I sure would feel a lot better if they could at least recognize it. They’ve been staring right in defeat’s face for a way long time now. It would be good if they could acknowledge what they’re looking at instead of acting like somebody at a class reunion who can’t recognize the people he went to school with.
TRex @
21
You leave our little Reese alone, you!
Hi Trex!
(I used to embrace de feet, but right now I’m too fat to bend over)
sue d @ 12:
am thinking that pelosi merely wants to get to january without whipping up a huge distraction — then she wants to nail down a few solid democratic accomplishments, like minimum wage, say, and (not so small) fixing medicare prescription plan.
meanwhile, waxman et al. will be riding herd on a few well chosen investigations. a few months of those, and depending on the evidence, traction — public support — might build for impeachment. i think this is one of those times when unfortunately it actually makes sense to wait.
the bigger concern? that bush pushes into iran or some other idiocy. but if you want to see a firestorm of public outcry lit, that would do it.
Two things:
If I were Stengel, I’d be wondering why I’d assembled a pundit team that resembles the ‘62 Mets.
Second, I’d never heard the word “swan” used as a verb until tonight. I’m teh stoopid.
um, anybody got reece’s phone number? i’d love to take her to a patti smith show on new year’s eve.
Nice post and catch TRex.
So Bush needs the generals to take a spin withdrawl seminar from Karl. Say were leavin’, look like were leavin’ but really, were gonna increase the troops or at least keep 70k troops and 100k militia there forever. heh heh…
How much do the neonuts (or for all we know the taxpayers) pay Time to keep jokeline in print?
Say, do you suppose we could collect those Time covers with the mirrors on them and use them to flash distress signals?
Hey Pach and Trex and all!
I’m really enjoying the erudite Trex mode … good stuff!
and swanning about it a great verb-iage too rarely used!
I think Joe Klein is like Ecclesiastes.
To Cut and Run? Turn, turn…
To Stay the Course? Turn, turn…
To Clutch My Pearls? Turn, turn, turn…
To every opinion, there’s a season under heaven…
TRex @ 22
I shall have to consult with her highness. But I think it’s possible. She is rather an exhibitionist. She knows what she has, and quite frankly, is not immune to flaunting it.
I love TRex!
Hey, Patrick!!
*waves*
ETPhoneHome @ 35
Aw, I love you, too!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 34
I have wondered from time to time if I may be part Siamese cat.
*part*?
honey you are purebred!
And.. check your email right now TRex…!
Siun @ 32
These days I worship Erudite. The goddess of scholarly love.
Pachacutec @ 28
A Brit-ism, Pach. As in, “Joe Klein, glowing from Stengel’s praise, swanned into the room.”
Because my books are mostly set in England, I’ve used the expression a few times. Mostly because I like it, effete snob that I am.
ETPhoneHome @ 40
Checking…must be a backup in the Toobz.
CatelynK @ 42
I’ve seen it used by American writers, I swear!
hmmmm…. do we need an altar to Erudite?
and CatelynK – what do you write?
My Christmas Card …..
More Left Wing propaganda :
http://img205.imageshack.us/ img2…desktop7lt2.gif
TRex @ 44
only erudite american writers!
I swan I never heard that before.
TRex @ 41
Speaking of scholarly love, here’s a little item from the “Well, duh!” department:
Most Americans have had premarital sex
Read to the end for a hilarious dismissal from Janet Crouse of Concerned Women for America. Apparently she doesn’t want to face the fact of her own unpopularity.
didn’t Stengel recently hire Kristol as a columnist? Or was that a nightmare?
From Webster’s:
Hey TRex, your Christmas present should arrive either tomorrow or the next day at work.
Merry Christmas!
Smooches.
Sorry for the bum link :
http://img205.imageshack.us/im…..op7lt2.gif
COLORADO BOB @ 53
Oh, gosh. Great work, but poor birdie! Makes me want to run in there with a bottle of Dawn liquid.
EvilDrPuma @ 49
“Any time I see numbers that high, I’m a little suspicious,” she said. “The numbers are too pat.”
Ahem.
Siun @ 45
Historical (Jane Austen era) romantic adventures. Sixteen to date, but I’m changing course and following my other true love, fantasy romantic adventure.
Not sure we need an altar to Erudite, but I’d like to smash Bush’s altar to Stupidite.
EvilDoc – my son sent me two links today – one Dan Savage on Colbert and the other Dan Savage and Anderson Cooper take on Janice Crouse … who my son calls “the ultra-bitch”
here are the links for your amusement:
Dan Savage on Colbert:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3W_O6BxA2E
Savage and Anderson Cooper hand Crouse her self-righteous ass on a plate:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=L4DWILX-Xp4
Joe Klein is just tellin’ the Dems that he is now “available” for their cocktail weenie circuit.
“Where ya’ll been? I’ve been so lonesome. The other side’s weenies are so…small…and ahem…tasteless. Not like you, big boys!” says Joe “Cluck” Klein.
Luuuuvvvvv, ain’t it grand!
Catelyn – neat!
I’m mostly a science fiction reader but at times lunge into historical fiction.
And I saw a very cool (no one laugh) project recently from Harlequin at a business conference on corporate responsibility (my field) … Harlequin has a contest every year and their readers submit the names of women they know who do great things for their communities – then 5 Harlequin authors write short romance stories framed around the community work/charities/etc of the five women selected – and they publish an anthology. The sales profits go to the charities – it was just such a nicely done project with everyone involved and encouraging women, esp women who normally get no recognition, in good work.
ok gang … it’s off to sleep for me!
g’nite all!
Heading home, kids. Will check in from there.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bull…..s/436.html
“I swan” means “I swear,” in the US usage.
our magazine is losing readers, we need to hire sensational writers.
(not good ones, just ones that know sensation when they invent it)
here I was, hanging out on the previous thread, wondering where the hell everyone was … Does anyone really know what Time it is? Does anyone really care?
Its Klein Time.
about Time? no, i can’t imagine why.
For TRex…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/…..-ap150.jpg
It’s past Time.
The conscious mindlessness of conservatives
EvilDrPuma @ 49
This would be amusing were it not so sad: how much has the Bush administration spent on abstinence-only programs? And how well do they actually work? And, more importantly, does it apply to the twins??
AirportCat @ 70
Does it count if I abstain from the twins?
What was he doing with his compass in the bathtub, anyway? When I find an image like that funny, I know it’s time for bed. Good night, all. Good post, T-Rex.
AirportCat @ 70
“Don’t cop a feel, Argentina…”
**waves to AirportCat on the way out**
Slothrop @
13
My parents refused to have it in the house. Too…Republican, doncha know.
Lindy @ 72
Well, something was pointing North.
neokneme @ 75
Let’s do the Time Warp again!
Lindy @ 74
** waves back, also heading for the exit **
Evening, firepups and firecats.
Does anybody know what time it is?
Does anybody care (about time)?
EvilDrPuma @ 78
Ask me for anything but time.
Patrick 4/4!!!! xxoo Sorry for the drive by.
Great post TRex. FDL made jokeline famous/ infamous. Sorry, gotta get back to my exam key.
EvilDrPuma @
73
damn. wine in the keyboard.
Hey, VG!
And you know Time won’t give me time,
And Time makes lovers feel
Like they’ve got something real,
But you and me we know they got nothing but Time…
Valley Girl @ 82
Heya!
I’ve never counted it up, but thinking back over the couples that I have married, that 95% figure for pre-marital sex fits – in fact, it may be low.
TRex @ 84
Joe Klein and Boy (King) George. Works for me.
[[Imagine some interesting, witty comment here.]]
I think I need to go to bed. I can’t even think of anything to say. Life is eating my brain. :p
Peterr @ 86
I think they’re summing up the data incorrectly.
What they meant was for each person, 95% of the sex was pre-marital.
DreamingCrow @ 88
JokeLine has that effect on people, I’m afraid.
Patrick 4/4 @ 89
That explains the Janet Crouse’s reaction. The time she did it, she was already married.
Patrick 4/4 @ 89
Or the various permutations of “it doesn’t count if . . .”
Peterr @ 92
What happens in Vegas…
…is a lot more expensive than you thought it was going to be.
Joe Klein, clown of Time,
my how his columns blow,
with rants that pull, and cock and bull,
and inanities all in a row.
EvilDrPuma @ 7
He probably meant moonwalking — look like we’re advancing, while sneakily withdrawing. Unfortunately, but the time Bushie got through with it, he thought it was better to make it look like he might take advice to withdraw the troops, and then mysteriously end up with 30,000 more…
Janet Crouse obviously doesn’t get out much, and her friends that do obviously don’t tell her about it.
Next week’s story: “Researchers confirm that 100% of all Americans breathe on a regular basis. ‘Any time I see numbers that high, I’m a little suspicious,’ said Janet Crouse of Concerned Women of America. ‘The numbers are too pat.’”
yet another drive by . . .
T REX !!!
usually catch the hot Late Nite action early in the am, always good stuff, but wanted to make a quick stop this evening, stand up and yell Bravo ! for last night’s post – jeebus child – spotlighted the stuffin out of it all morning
oh, and Joe Klein is velveeta and miracle whip on wonder bread
Glorfindel @ 94
Very nice, very nice!!
clapclapclapclapclapclap
Peterr @ 96
Janet is going to hold her breath until America turns blue.
They tell me I shouldn’t have pre-marital sex, BUT THEN THEY TELL ME I CAN’T GET MARRIED!!
Bitchez.
Oh, say it’s true!
;) Tanks. Honored.
Redshift @ 95
Or it means the strategic deployment of lots of bright shiny objects to distract the resident insurgents. “Oooohhh – lookit that . . . what’s that shiny thing over there?” Meanwhile, tens of thousands of troops tiptoe to the border.
Hey, if they could get Bush into the White House twice, maybe they can get the troops out of Iraq once.
Patrick 4/4 @ 99
Here’s a blast from the past:
“If I can’t keep Mr. Stevenson, I’m gonna hold my breath until I turn gay!”
–Kids in the Hall
TRex @ 101
Would I lie to you?
Patrick 4/4 @ 105
That was supposed to be a link, but it won’t play nice.
http://video.google.com/videop…..8221;would i lie to you”
TRex! oooxxx drive by. back to exam key. So sorry I haven’t had time to appreciate fully your JoeKline. still having to deal with alpha-gamma coactivation, and decerebrate prepartions. Being a science wonk, you know all about that, of course. Or, if you don’t, you don’t want to.
TRex @ 100
I had a gay friend who got into a conversation with a bishop about “practicing gays” not being able to be ordained. Said my friend, “No sex if you are gay and want to be ordained? What does that mean? Can I gaze longingly into my partner’s eyes? Can we whisper sweet nothings to each other? Can he brush his hand through my hair? Can we hold hands? Can I give him a massage? Can we kiss? Can we . . .”
That’s about when the bishop stopped him. Too bad. I wanted to see the look on the bishop’s face when things got a little more . . . how to put this? . . . delicate. Even so, he was more than a little uncomfortable by the whole exchange.
Bitchez indeed.
Of course, if you’re NEVER going to get married, then it’s not pre-marital. “Pre-” implies that someday you will be married.
Sounds like a loophole, TRex . . . have fun.
*dancing around the living room*
MY FRIENDS! KNOW WHAT’S IN STORE!
I WON’T BE HERE, ANYMORE!
Etc., etc.
TRex @ 109
I bought my wife a dress like that once.
“Oh honey….”
I think I like your friend. A lot.
Oh, trust me. I’m way ahead of you on that one.
Your friend’s conversation with the bishop reminds me of one I had with a coworker at a temp job who suggested I go to a Christian ex-gay camp and get “healed”.
“Okay,” I said, “And when I get back, you’ll be perfectly alright with me marrying your daughter? I think that’s great. It would be GREAT to come to your house for Thanksgiving and Christmas, I just know it. How much do these camps cost?”
That shut him down.
And, can I just mention that FDL introduced me to YouTube, and so I have some small measure of “coolness” with my students. TRex, I’ve already sent this link to you, and I bored the pants off punaise by sending him the same link, but I do love this one. OT, per usual for my LN contributions. (hint for others- essential viewing for kitty lovers) I showed during a lecture on animal locomotion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peLD2vlxRM0
JoeKline and DangerStein: two pees in a pod?
Got to go – have fun everyone!
My life in a nutshell.
Valley Girl @ 112
When Kitty figures this out, Kitty is gonna kick somebody’s ass.
This little lady looks and moves almost exactly like Juan Carlos, my younger kitty.
Patrick 4/4 LOL. I can’t tell you how many times I have watched that YouTube video. Yours, Kitty.
Bush has to go:
All it will take is to convince him that he is likely to be impeached by a simple 2/3 majority of the House.
TRex @ 117
Well, of course I had to follow that link and watch the cat behavior. Great swishing of expressive tail.
But!!!! did you see this one? Came up as the next selection on YouTube. Weird life, that man has. Well, sorta. Just make sure next time you go to the fridge you don’t ask the 2 cat guys “can I get you anything?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNv9nGdi8wU&NR
Wigwam @ 119
I think that may only mean that a president may not pardon the impeached and convicted in the Senate – that is, undo what the Senate has done – remove someone from office. Someone who has been impeached and convicted can still be tried in the courts for those crimes – for which the President can then pardon them.
Wigwam- As I remember, there were some stern folks who twisted Dickie’s arm. And, apparently he was willing to listen. Not so sure either is the case now, tho I wish.
Valley Girl @ 120
Wow. That’s a herd of cats. All Siamese, too, or versions thereof. That guy must have a weird life.
Patrick 4/4 @
121
It only says “impeachment” and doesn’t mention “conviction.” I’d like to believe that mere impeachment, which requires only a simple majority of the House, would destroy the impeached’s pardonability. But I could be convinced that I’m wrong.
Guys, I’m going to eat and then hit the rack. Y’all have a good night!
Why do people still call Ana Marie Cox “Wonkette?” Didn’t she sell the site or turn it over to other people to run?
Wigwam @ 124
Impeachment doesn’t require pardon. It’s the same thing as an indictment. Therefore it seems unlikely that that would be the intent here. Without conviction, there is no offence to pardon. The purpose of a pardon is to relieve the penalty upon the pardoned – the only penalty from impeachment and conviction is loss of office (and, I believe, pension).
The intent, I think is to tell the President – “back off, this is the legislative branch’s business”, nothing more.
TRex @ 125
See ya.
Ed*ard Teller @ 126
Gad, I’m commenting too much tonight. Ms. Cox was an employee of Gawker Media, which actually owns the Wonkette site. They refer to her there as Wonkette Emerita.
It’s a shorthand identifier.
Patrick 4/4 @
129
Nice title. But I feel she lost rights to what was a cool handle when she started ass-fucking progressive bloggers after YearlyKos.
Ed*ard Teller @ 130
Only proving that it’s a very short trip from “Wonkette” to “Wankette.” :)
Ed*ard Teller @ 130
No argument from me. She can be very funny, particularly when deflating and humiliating the pompous, but her evident ambition is rapidly becoming her defining characteristic.
Flynt Leveritt’s talk on Iran, has been up on C-SPAN’s download pages now for almost 36 hours, and has never worked, from what I can tell.
See if you can get it to work:
http://www.cspan.org/VideoArch…..amp;Page=2
OK. YouTube is now carrying his talk.
Patrick 4/4 @
127
Clinton pardoned many and commuted the sentences of many others. The point is that the post-conviction term is “commutation of sentence.” But Ford pardoned Nixon before Nixon was even indicted.
My sense is that once an impeachment occurs, the case becomes a “case of impeachment,” and the accused becomes unpardonable.
Well, that and the fact that she doesn’t actually write much of anything anymore.
Okay. Really heading for bed now.
*sigh* If only reading it could make it so..
From wiki
(scroll down a little bit)
Pardons and clemency in the United States
snip
Wigwam @ 134
We’re going to have to agree to disagree on that. I also think the range of disagreement you’re likely to find over the likelihood of that being a workable premise would pale before the unlikelihood of getting the House to seriously entertain the prospect.
SusanD @
12
That was Barbara Boxer on TDS, not Pelosi.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 136
From that, I think we go back to the President may not block the impeachment process once articles are voted. Just as impeachment and conviction in the Senate do not prevent a person from then being prosecuted, I can’t see any reason why the president couldn’t grant a pardon for the crimes being prosecuted outside the Senate.
It is, I think, a question of jurisdiction. Just as a person can be tried in State and Federal Courts for the same offence under different laws and jurisdictions and not be put in double jeopardy, a person can be impeached without prejudice to the applicable laws in State or Federal Court. The pardon power should still hold in those instances.
Oh Christy…
Patrick 4/4 – I agree, but knowing this president he would try pardoning himself just for kicks or for Cheneys kicks.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 140
I’m still going to go to bed dreaming of hearings.
Let’s give Daniel Inouye one more shot at glory.
Goodnight all.
here here
Cannon – fodder.
… or you could read a candidate for the anti-Klein, Jay Rosen,
Retreat from Empiricism
(h/t War and Piece). Herewith a scraping:
Today the NYT columnists are Thomas Friedman and Maureen Dowd. Don’t go anywhere near Maureen if you have high blood pressure. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.
http://mgpaquin.blogspot.com/
late to this party, sorry
the worst thing about Joe Kline is that he gives credibility to the marketing tools of the neo cons
“the democrats can embrace cut and run”
bull crap, the democrats never proposed cut and run, they proposed benchmarks and leaving Iraq as soon as practicable.
bush cut and ran from every opportunity to defend this country, from the precise data he received telling him we’d be attacked and taking a vacation, to cutting and running from the fight against terrorism instead to initiate war against a country that was itself against terrorism.
how the hell does ANYONE have the nerve using the term “cut and run” against DEMOCRATS when they SHOULD be using the term against Republicans
and the term “EMBRACE DEFEAT”
ANOTHER marketing phrase that has NOTHING to do with the democrats
THE PRESIDENT INITIATED AN UNPROVOKED AGGRESSION AGAINST A COUNTRY THAT HE KNEW POSED NO THREAT WHAT SO EVER
our armed forces realized AN UNQUALIFIED SUCCESS, they overthrew Saddam, they insured there was NO “weapons of mass destruction”, AND THEY SUCCEEDED
THE PRESIDENT’S PLAN TO OCCUPY IRAQ IS WHAT FAILED
and there is NO reason we need to protect some kind of victory that this president envisions
he DOES NOT envision democracy he deliberately installed THEOCRACY, he DOES NOT envision a sovereign nation, HE WANTS AN OCCUPIED COUNTRY
AMERICA SUCCEEDED IN IRAQ, the moronic “strategy” that went against ALL military advice that this administration INSISTED on using is what failed
SO STOP CLAIMING LEAVING IRAQ IS “EMBRACING DEFEAT” for America, it is DECLARING that the president’s NOTION of conquer and occupy IS A FAILED STRATEGY THAT NEEDS TO BE ABANDONED.
JOURNALISTS need to STOP embracing the MARKETING PHRASES the noe cons use that turns them into mindless marionettes moving in sinc to the mindless maniacal machinations from the moronic puppeteers
Mornin’ pups,
Coffee’s ready
looseheadprop @ 147
Thanks for your analysis as a Fitz fixerupper..
Jack
Thanks Marion
I only made it as far as this…
Rule 11: The most underestimated emotion in Arab politics is humiliation. The Israeli-Arab conflict, for instance, is not just about borders. Israel’s mere existence is a daily humiliation to Muslims, who can’t understand how, if they have the superior religion, Israel can be so powerful. Al Jazeera’s editor, Ahmed Sheikh, said it best when he recently told the Swiss weekly Die Weltwoche: “It gnaws at the people in the Middle East that such a small country as Israel, with only about seven million inhabitants, can defeat the Arab nation with its 350 million. That hurts our collective ego. The Palestinian problem is in the genes of every Arab. The West’s problem is that it does not understand this.”
…before I had to say something.
Friedman asserts his misunderstanding of the general MidEast problem once again. While he is correct that the humiliation factor is underestimated by most Americans (and evidently political committee chairs) Friedman shows his ignorance of cause and effect. American politics uses the power of money to inflict damage on others with humiliation being just one of many desired effects.
Like many other pseudo-journalists, he ignores the factor of MONEY, unbalanced US foreign aid and policies of coercion through cash.
thats why I canceled my time and newsweek subscription,you cant trust them,and if I cant trust you to be honest,why would I waste my time reading your oppinions.
thanks Marion
Jay Rosen
Maureen Dowd
Compare and Contrast adjacent links
Dowd is dangerous because she is actually capable of giving the appearance of a reasoned, intelligent comment while in actuality providing a textbook approach to logical fallicies
so what you are saying Mack is that MoDo is real good at polishing a turd?
Jack
What’s a Fitz fixer upper?
I’m guessing this is a compliment, and if so, thank you. But I didn’t understand the reference
Added to the rab humiliation problem is the fact that westerners tend to treat most muslims with the same racism we display toward all non-whites.
We treat them like third worlders even though some of these nations are awsh in oil and the money it brings.
Middle eastern countries, run by people with IvyLeague eductions and with sophisticaed banking and other commercial infra structures, sometimes with state of the art medical facilites that make our own hospitals look primative by comparison, get treated by the American man in the street like poor ignorant camel jockyes.
We treat them like they are still occupied by colonial powers. They may be free from English or French or Belgian imperial occupation, but they don’t get treated like full fledged equal sovereign nations, and their citizens are looked down on by citizens of western European and North American countires.
Short version” We treat them with contempt, that’s why they hate us
Gotta go. Early depostion today.
Enjoy the coffee and have a good day all
…lipstick on a pig; it doesn’t much help the appearance and it annoys the hell out of the pig.
Patrick 4/4 @ 137
The Constitution is quite vague on this matter. It simnply says that the President has the power of pardon, “except in cases of impeachment.” But here is what Hamilton had to say on the matter in The Federalist Papers, No. 69:
looseheadprop @ 155
Thanks, and have a good one.
You hit an important point with our collective condescension.
looseheadprop @ 153
Yes, definitely a compliment… I’ve enjoyed
your practical input and analysis of the case.
A Fitz fixer upper is a thread that satisfies
my thirst to discuss my emotional attachment
to this case… I feel it may nail this
administration for their lying, and smearing
of good people.
I have so much contempt for Bush, Cheney,et.al
They have tried to put a knife in my country…
Jack
Good Morning Firedogs,
someone upthread was looking for Flynt Leverett video
former WH guy claiming Iran made diplomatic overtures in 5/03
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._1219.html
thanks for the coffee lhp – sorry I missed ya
gratuitous best kitteh video evah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5Ilq3kFxek
Wigwam
It’s my opinion that Cheney has engineered, from the shadows, the protections of secrecy and immunity.
With the apparent protection by his political peers who fear any scrutiny of their own personal demons, do you think their will be any accountability for this administration?
Thanks for dropping in, looseheadprop.
Ditto on the racism towards Middle Eastern folks. Americans in general either have forgotten or never learned about the library of Alexandria, and its collection of scholarly works from across the Middle East. There was a culture of knowledge in place thousands of years before America was born. Why are we not encouraging the rebirth of the collective knowledge of the Middle East rather than acting dismissively? Because we are quite ignorant ourselves and are unable to see both our ignorance and this opportunity. Gah.
coffee’s almost ready…
dayum, it’s COLD!!!
I thought this was supposed to be sunny So Cal?
I think the dogs need some mittens and tail warmers…
Mornin’ all!
U.S. defense secretary visits Baghdad
FBI investigates N.Y. Senate leader
Joseph Bruno, who will be the state’s top Republican in January, said Tuesday he was told by the FBI in late spring that he was being investigated. The 77-year-old lawmaker said he doesn’t know exactly what investigators are looking for, but he has cooperated.
Chimpy to hold news conference today at 10 AM Eastern
twolf1 @
167
No, not a corrupt Republican?
-GSD
This could be Bush’s meltdown presser.
-GSD
Kim Jong Ill wants his iPods back
GSD @
170
That would be fun to watch
Creative withdrawal. That’s the ticket.
If the Democrats lend an ounce of support to Bush’s new surge toward Armageddon, they’ll turn this Republican nightmare into a bipartisan homicidal/suicidal orgy.
The politically astute will be appalled at the “bipartisan” aspect. I can’t get past the blood.
The road home begins with “No, thanks.” If the president doesn’t listen, the next step is a flat “No.”
CNN says today’s Chimpy statement at presser will be 10 minutes long. No word on whether he will be taking questions or not.
Al-Zawahri: U.S. should talk to al-Qaida
So Powell et al are in full on cya maneuvers. Great. We need to leverage these idiots against each other. The more they are pressed a bit harder in interviews (see below) the more likely that soon they will give each other up.
http://www.tinyrevolution.com/…..01238.html
Oh nuts, we should take bets as to the other topic of the McChimpy presser. There must be something else besides, “I didn’t say what I said about not saying we’re winning in Iraq…”, don’t you think?
Ten minutes is a lot of time for nothing…
rumi @ 161
It will be a tough ballgame. These guys are tough and smart — look at how James Baker handled Gore and company in Florida and how they slipped past everything in the Iran/Contra scandal. But they can be beaten. A lot depends on who is calling the shots for this side.
Also notice that they are scared. They know that they are legally vulnerable and are devoting a lot of energy to protecting themselves. Bush lawyered-up in 2004. They went to great lengths to push push through the MCA in hopes of gutting the War Crimes Act of 1996 and giving themselves retroactive immunity. They’ve been preparing a sanctuary in Paraguay:
And I’ve read that Bush recently bought a ranch there.
They’ve certainly gone methodically through all of the what-if’s and have a plan for every contingency. But they are’t comfortable, and here’s why:
* There are no statutes of limitation on war crimes and crimes against humanity.
* Many countries, especially in Europe, believe in universal jurisdiction in matters of war crimes and crimes against humanity. (E.g., everyone applauded the apprehension by Israel of Adolph Eichmann in Argentina for crimes committed outside of Israel and before Israel existed. I suspect that many countries feel similarly about GWB and friends.)
* The Geneva Protocols, the U.N. Charter, and the Treaty Against Torture are Senate-ratified treaties, which make them “the supreme law of the land” by Article VI of the U.S. Constitution, their Military Commissions Act not withstanding.
So, IMHO, they’ll be brought to justice somehow, somewhere, sometime. They’ve been messing with people who have very long memories and international law on their side.
twolf1 @ 172
Why do I get the feeling that Bush’s meltdown just means the rest of us are in more hot water?
Rayne @
177
I bet it’ll include a lot of fomenting.
new thread
twolf1 — pardon me, I don’t think I heard you correctly.
Was that fomenting or foaming?
Heh.
Christy’s up top with DeadEye. Bring your Kevlar.
Rayne @ 182
fomenting at the mouth
Wigwam @ 178
Thanks for the detailed reply. I didn’t see anything at all that I disagree with. When Bush lawyered up in 04, wasn’t it also coincidental with the Enron investigation/trial and that it was also Ken Lay’s lawyer? He’s probably lawyered up more times than that one, but is that the same one as you mentioned?
rumi @
184
His name is James Sharp, and here are some details about his past.
Ripping them for finally getting it is going to discourage them from getting it.
Klein just reflects the kewl kids conventional wisdom in any case. The Gang of 500 is turning against the war. We should not deride this. We should encourage it.
Wigwam @
157
Wigwam: My apologies if this is so late you don’t see it. I’m not trying to get the last word, but I do want to respond. We can dig into this more any time you’d like.
I think this part of the Hamilton excerpt
supports the idea, that although the President may pardon wherever else he wants, he cannot interfere with the impeachment process.
There is no suggestion here that impeachment trumps the otherwise normal course of law which would include indictment, trial, conviction and pardon.