
(Al Askari Mosque, Samarra, Iraq, before and after the bombing of February, 2006)
Something that enabled the Bush administration to foist its illegal invasion of Iraq on the public and has deeply complicated its execution has been widespread ignorance on the part of Americans about the political, cultural, and religious history of the region and the true nature of the relationships between the main ethnic and religious groups on the ground.
Via Raw:
Former Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith is claiming President George W. Bush was unaware that there were two major sects of Islam just two months before the President ordered troops to invade Iraq, RAW STORY has learned.
(snip)
A year after his “Axis of Evil” speech before the U.S. Congress, President Bush met with three Iraqi Americans, one of whom became postwar Iraq’s first representative to the United States. The three described what they thought would be the political situation after the fall of Saddam Hussein. During their conversation with the President, Galbraith claims, it became apparent to them that Bush was unfamiliar with the distinction between Sunnis and Shiites.
Galbraith reports that the three of them spent some time explaining to Bush that there are two different sects in Islam–to which the President allegedly responded, “I thought the Iraqis were Muslims!”
I read that and snorted through my nose. But then I realized that if someone asked me to explain the difference between Sunni and Shiite Iraqis, I wouldn't be able to tell you much more. So, I enlisted the aid of up and coming young blogger Jebediah from the excellent blog Foreign Policy Watch to give us a primer on what our President was too busy riding his bike and clearing brush to learn before he launched his cataclysmic war.
From FP Watch:
The division dates back to the time after Muhammad's death in 632, in the area which is now known as Saudi Arabia, when the next leader of the Muslim nation had yet to be decided. One group of people (who would later become known as the "Shiites") believed that the ruler should be a member of the prophet's family, while another group (who would later be called the "Sunnis") believed that Muhammad’s successor should be chosen from amongst those who were most qualified. While Shiites desired the succession of Muhammad’s cousin “Ali” as the next leader, Sunnis opted for “Abu Bakr,” a close friend to the prophet. The Sunnis quickly prevailed and Abu Bakr was installed as Muhammad's successor.
To break it down and possibly over-simplify it, the Shiia follow the bloodline of Mohammed and the Sunnis follow the Qur'an and the Hadith, a sacred Muslim text that details the words and actions of the Prophet Mohammed. Conflicts arose from this disagreement between the two sects culminating in a bloody civil war in 656. Differences hardened and the religion formally split five years after the outbreak of the war.
Since the split, several religious differences have emerged between the two groups. Shiites, for example, have more of a formal religious hierarchy than Sunnis do. For Shiites, those who are descendants of the prophet are particularly important and are often looked to for spiritual and social guidance. For Iraq’s Shiite population, for example, the clerics Ayatollah Sistani and Muqtada al-Sadr are prominent, influential figures because of their positions as descendants of Muhammad. In the picture, you’ll notice that both Sistani (in the banner to the left) and Sadr (right) wear black turbans around their heads, a symbol that shows lineage to the prophet.
For Sunnis, on the other hand, there does not exist the same religious hierarchy. To them, elevating descendants of the prophet to positions of power is an incorrect interpretation of the will of God. Instead, they hold the Qur'an and the teachings of Muhammad to be the primary sources of information on Islam. Shiites and Sunnis also disagree somewhat in their interpretation of certain passages of the Qur'an and the Hadith (the words and actions of Muhammad) and they also differ in the manner in which they pray.
(snip)
Sunnis make up roughly 85% of the Muslim population in the world. In the Middle East, most countries have majority Sunni populations. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the Palestinian territories, Jordan, Turkey, and the Gulf states are all Sunni-dominated.
Shiites, on the other hand, maintain majorities in Iraq, Iran, Bahrain, and Lebanon. Iran, in particular, has a very large population of Shiites. Over 60 million, in fact,which is more than in any other country in the world. In the map to the right, you'll notice that the light green Sunni-dominated areas cover far more territory than the dark green Shia-dominated areas.
Professor Juan Cole of Informed Comment makes a very important point in this NPR interview from earlier this month. For most of the 19th and 20th centuries, Sunnis and Shiites have lived in Iraq largely free of conflict. It was our invasion of that country that inflamed the sectarian tensions and created an environment of chaos that has given birth to a Medieval bloodbath:
JC: The degree of rancor and hatred and sheer brutal violence that's going on in Iraq right now between Sunnis and Shiites is, I mean, I think you have to go back to the 1500's to find another period in which it was this bad.
NPR: So, it sounds like the political aspirations of different powers within the region are exacerbating these theological and cultural differences between people, as is often the case in ethnic violence.
JC: Yeah, I don't think that people in Iraq are ultimately fighting over Sunnism and Shiism very much, now. One prays with their hands at their side. Another prays with their hands folded in front. I don't think that people are killing each other over those kinds of minor differences. They're killing each other because these religious ideologies are being marshalled in a quest for power.
In short, political operators in Iraq are cynically manipulating the faithful in order to further their own ends, rather like the GOP turning to the Christian Right whenever it needs to swell its election numbers and fill its coffers. Some people may take exception to that characterization, but to my thinking it's a distinction of degree rather than intent.
PS I see a lot of pundits and politicians saying that Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq have been fighting for a millennium. We need better history than that. The Shiite tribes of the south probably only converted to Shiism in the past 200 years. And, Sunni-Shiite riots per se were rare in 20th century Iraq. Sunnis and Shiites cooperated in the 1920 rebellion against the British. If you read the newspapers in the 1950s and 1960s, you don't see anything about Sunni-Shiite riots. There were peasant/landlord struggles or communists versus Baathists. The kind of sectarian fighting we're seeing now in Iraq is new in its scale and ferocity, and it was the Americans who unleashed it.
See Brian Uhlrich's comments on this, linking to Issandr El Amrani re the New York Times op-ed by Lee Smith. Contrast to this better overview in NYT recently.
I remember a Peanuts cartoon in which Charlie Brown observed Lucy filling Schroeder's head with a bunch of nonsense. He observed that it would take the poor guy 12 years just to unlearn all the silly things Lucy had taught him. It is the same with Americans and the Neocons on the Middle East. (emphasis mine)
If we as bloggers, readers, and members of the public are going to push back against the gushing fountain of misinformation and ignorant rhetoric that spews forth from Pox News and The Glenn Beck Network, we owe it to ourselves to learn as much as we can about what's really going on. In my opinion, you can never be too rich or too well-informed.
Related posts:






Spotlight








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

Not My President
Raw, sects, & TRex!
TRex,
My queer hero.
I will be spotlighting this post.
But I could sure use a hit of snark. Got any extra laying around?
MERRYGREGIOUS, EVERYBODY!!
Fitz. And soon please God.
Now THAT gave me immense satisfaction.
I just clicked away from that moron Pat Robertson going off on a whine-fest about the Episcopal Church’s break up over gays…
And I switched to Brokeback Mountain on HBO-W.
Take that, you old, sad, sorry, useless f*ck. God have mercy on your hating, dried-up raisin of a soul, Robertson.
Rayne @ 6
Yay!! Less sanctimony! More hot man-sex!! Hooray!!
OMG, not more Bush crap!
Oh TRex, you’d make such a better leader of the free world…
At least you know the difference between Sunni and Sh’ia Islam!
Oh, and btw, hi everyone! : )
Excellent post. It is wonderful to spread the knowledge of history and other cultures. This information perfectly underscores why we should not have gone there in the first place, but more important that we need to leave.
We started the war but we don’t have to continue it with our presence.
Our government is so irresponsible.
Oh and FITZ!
This will go a long way to help parents talk with their kids about sects.
Sorry, TRex, I went OT. Damn, but that old bastard has always made me sick; he’s not right in the head, was always borderline and is now clearly over the edge. I stuck around to catch the opening of his program; he looks like he’s on death’s door, can’t follow cues well, acts like he’s propped up.
Times have changed for the better, if only slightly, if I can choose Brokeback over that hypocritical and pretentious demon.
Trex- a profoundly important post.
Thank you ;)
I have long been sick about the people who spew that “those people have been fighting forevah!”
That is ignorance; thanks for helping to sweep that and much more into the dustbin of lies.
For all its faults, it must be remembered that Iraq was a largely secular nation before we got there.
Okay, now chilled out enough to get back on topic.
Cannot recommend enough this great article at New York Review of Books, “War within War“, by Max Rodenbeck.
It’s not about Iraq, but about the wider problem across the entire Middle East; we are on the cusp of a conflagration between Shi’a and Sunni that extends across the entire region. The hostilities this summer between Hezbollah and Israel were a foreshadowing of the spread.
Imagine what it would take for Saudi Arabia to align with Israel; boggles the mind, and an overwhelming percentage of Americans have no ken of the undertow at work here, or the size of the djinn Americans let out of the bottle.
TRex @ 13
yeppers and i would venture to say Iraq does not have any fault when it comes to our invasion and occupation…
the people suffered under Saddam and thru Poppy and Clinton and now worse than ever under dubya.
TRex @
13
Which tends to be one of the major points that I make when describing the differences and the cultures to others. ::sigh::
I really do try, but even in Seattle, many people don’t want to have think. I know too many people who are willfully ignorant, so trying to get them actually understand what’s going on makes my head hurt.
Hey Trex!
Good info – and so important to point to the fact that it is the American invasion – and the resulting “choices” made by Bremer and gang that encouraged sectarian divide.
Can we all just wake up from this horrible nightmare called President Bush?
Sometimes I wonder what will happen when these sects find unity in hating the USA, and turn against us together, united. Surely their differences between one another are less than either of their differences with us. Especially given the hellhole we’ve made of their homeland.
Thanks for this education, TRex. Odd that God would pit us one against another for the way we choose to worship God, but what are ya gonna do?
The post reminds me of an interview I heard a couple of years ago on NPR with a “middle east expert” (college professor)
He said “Well the administration may have some really bright people- but they SURE ARE IGNORANT–for instance Wolfowitz was talkin to some people at a social function where he said that we were lucky cause there were no important religious shrines in Iraq like there are in Saudi Arabia”
He also said that the NEO CONS should have known- but didn’t- that the first history lesson Iraqi schoolchildren get is about how they threw the Brits out when they came and said “We’re here to liberate you”.
Resistance to occupation and imperial dominance is at the heart of Iraqi nationalism…
DUHHHH!
OT– ROTFLMAO– you gotta see Colbert!
What did the neo-cons need with Iraq experts or scholars- they had their own!!
angie @ 21
Tonight’s word – The Draft
Ryan @
18
Unfortunately, this isn’t the type of nightmare one can “wake up” from. One has to actively do something to do end it.. or in this case it’s probably a series of things…
This is really fantastic work. Very important, and great job finding FP Watch.
Pachacutec @ 25
Thank you, Pach.
And FP watch found me.
I don’t think Galbraith says that Bush didn’t know the difference between Shia and Sunni, I think Galbraith says that Bush didn’t know there was a difference between Shia and Sunni. It’s on page 86 of his book “End of Iraq”. Go to Borders, etc. and take a look and if you aren’t sick, before you read it you will be after.
Bush is causing pain deep in the heart of Texas — not just Iraq…
Guess they’re used to his MO:
And it all ends with..
Hey, isn’t there some gooper penchant for cost-benefit analysis? Yo Goopers — get out your green eyeshades! Dumbya’s runnin up a heck of a bill and now he’s printing those gangster presidents. All of it hot!
I wish the Washington Note had some kind of sitemeter so we could see how many CIA hits it’s getting.
Now that is a very instructive map…Course I love maps anyway, but it is very interesting to see the distibution of Shia and Sunni across the Muslim world.
Thanks for some good information. I understood the original point of schism between Sunni and Shia, but not the relationship to religious hierarchy or the differences in interpretation of the basic texts. So, you gave me a bit of new information to chew on.
It occurs to me that, if members of the two general sects in what is now Iraq managed to get along for as long as they did without Saddam’s secularized strongarming, there might be some historical basis for reconciliation. Provided, of course, that some third party (not the U.S., obviously) were able to get the political aggrandizers in both groups to put a sock in it long enough to explore that basis. Trouble is, as long as Der Shrubbenfuhrer is determined to make matters worse (read: do pretty much anything except withdraw and look for regional diplomatic consensus, or more briefly, anything Bush can conceive of), that isn’t likely to come about.
William Jensen @ 27
Either way, did Bush think there were two sects with different names only to explore the rich phonemic possibilities of the Arabic language? What a stooge.
Well, kids, I’m about to head home. I’ll check back in from there.
I was kind of hoping that Jebediah would show up tonight so we could all thank him, but he’s either being shy and lurking or too busy studying for his final exams. Well, hopefully, we’ll be seeing a lot more of him in the future.
Since Shrubya also doesn’t know the difference between Shit and Shinola, this particular blind spot can’t be surprising.
Colbert: “You’re retired, how are you getting by on a fixed income?”
Jack Welch: “Social Security….”
Great post TRex, as usual. What hurts most, as an American expatriate in Canada now for 30 years, is that if you had our parliamentary system Bush would have been long gone due to a vote of non-confidence. It’s so frustrating to watch my homeland just come apart.
It seems unlikely that Bush has ever had more than a grade school understanding of the world and how it works- worse- he has a crazy fairy tale version that he partly invented himself- that causes him to ignore anything that he might otherwise learn…
Things are goin Jest FINE.
Colbert: “You know, I have a foundation….the STEPHEN and Melinda Gates Foundation….”
TRex,
I started reading your posts during YK when you did that brilliant piece on wonkett. Since then I have enjoyed the near nightly snarkfest.
Thanks for highlighting your serious side tonight.
thanks for the pictures above– so terribly sad.
Iraq includes within its borders the ancient fertile and coveted land located between the Tigress and Euphrates Rivers.
While it is interesting to note the fundamental differences between the Shiites and the Sunnis, I find it most interesting to learn that the US has caused the two factions to go after each other with a bloodlust never before unleashed. Fascinating too is the overwhelming number of Sunnis throughout the Muslim world and the concentration of Shiites in Iraq and Iran. Really is one hell of a clusterfuck or a Custerfuck, even.
OT – snow cones
twolf1 @ 42
707!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great post, it leads me to a question. So when Cheney claims the aim of some group is to re-establish the great Caliphate, would that be the Shiites who plan to convert the other 85 percent of the Islamic world in order to do so?? Was the Caliph a Shiite? And how freakin’ likely is that? (That one was rhetorical.)
Tony Snowcones.
Scoop @ 44
I see no reason to believe Cheney cares, even if he understands the question. He’s just talking trash.
Good one, TRex. Thanks.
I wonder why the sectarian violence in Iraq looks so much like what was going on in places like El Salvador and Guatemala. Folks who’ve gotten along, even at arms’s length for many years suddenly plagued by death squads.
I’m more than beginning to think that some folks over there were trained in something very much like the school of the americas.
Perhaps it’s the rolling image of contractors in a van shooting civilians on a highway to a Elvis Presley tune. This so called sectarian violence smells of Negroponte…
Need a little Christmas?
Scoop @ 44
I believe it is Osama and his buds (al Qaeda, Sunni) who want to restore the Caliphate.
“Boyo, I shore am glad we part of the Western Xtian world where there ain’t no stuff like these feckin’ religious sects killin’ each other.” said Paddy O’Toole of Belfast, Northern Ireland.
Blogkeeper, another round for me an all me Irish relatives.
In order to excuse the US government of any responsibility for the tragedy it has created in Iraq, some claim that the Sunnis and Shiites have been at each other’s throats since the death of Ali in 661. This is vicious propaganda. However, even if it is true that “it was the Americans who unleashed it” (Professor Juan Cole), there still had to be something to unleash.
I am still hunting for a good explanation of why the differences between Sunni and Shia are capable of resulting in mass murder. And not just in Iraq. In Afghanistan, Sunnis persecute the Hazara people, who are Shiites. (The Hazara are racially quite different from other Afghanis.)
I am not an expert and would really love to hear from someone who knows more, but here are the factors I have figured out so far.
1) The first officially Shiite government was the Safavid dynasty in Persia (Iran), founded in 1501, which is much more recent than the death of Ali in 661 (when the Sunni-Shia division first occurred). Since then Shia is associated with Iran, so the Shia-Sunni divide is often also a cultural divide between Persian culture and Arab culture. So there is a close, but not complete association with ethnicity. In reports from Iraq (in English), I have read that some Sunnis refer to Iraqi Shiites derogatorily as “Iranians”, even though they are Iraqis and Arabs.
Persia/Iran is nearly twice as old as Islam, so the role of Persian/Iranian culture within Islam seems to have been an ongoing issue within Islam. In many other areas, the pre-Islamic culture was pretty completely overwhelmed (Pakistan), but not in Persia.
2) Islam places a strong emphasis on unity. It discourages theological speculation of the kind that led to disunity and large-scale mutual killings among Christians in the areas that Islam first expanded to from Arabia. Sunnis particularly emphasize this. For Sunnis, all the big questions are already settled. Opening them to renewed discussion creates the potential for disunity. Disunity can lead to disaster. Anyone who re-opens the big questions can cause huge harm to all Muslims.
Shiites have a more elaborate religious hierarchy and have imams. Imams are _very_ roughly analagous to popes. They can change doctrine that Sunnis consider settled. On this basis, Shias are very roughly to Sunnis as Mormons are to Christians. Or Shias are very roughly to Sunnis as Nyingma Tibetan Buddhists are to Gelukpa Tibetan Buddhists (the Dalai Lama’s school).
3) Muslim forces outside Iraq are helping fuel the fires of Sunni-Shiite conflict as part of their rivalry. In particular, Iran is aiding the Shias and Saudi Arabia the Sunnis. So a regional power struggle is amplifying these tensions.
4) Now for completely pure speculation. If you look at the history of British colonialism, the British were very big on “divide and conquer”. Most of the civil wars since WW2 occurred in former British colonies between groups that the British had played against each other: India vs. Pakistan, West Pakistan vs. East Pakistan (Bangladesh), Greeks vs. Turks in Cyprus, the Karen rebellion in Burma, Protestant vs. Catholic in Northern Ireland, Jew vs. Arab in Palestine (now mostly Israel). I can not help wondering if the British might have been playing off Sunnis and Shias in Iraq while they ran the country.
Again, I am _not_ an expert and hope someone out there can and will explain this better than I did.
Got a question for WaPo White House correspondent Peter Baker? He chatz tomorrow at 11am eastern. Questions accepted anytime!
Also, Opinion Columnist Eugene Robinson chatz at 1pm eastern.
I almost choked on my snocaps when I heard John Kasich say one day that Sunnis and Shias have been fighting “for two thousand years.”
Fern @
30
Jon Kilpinen of Valparaiso University teaches geography, and put together a great set of maps for his course entitled “American Ethnic Geography.” He has groups of US maps describing the distribution of ethnic groups, culture regions, religion, language, politics, and socio-economics. I ran across it when looking for some basic maps on American religious diversity, and these offer a lot of interesting information.
Great post, TRex – and greatly needed.
While it is interesting to note the fundamental differences between Shia and Sunni, I am reminded of the religious wingnuts here in the homeland: Evangelicals like Pat Robertson, Falwell and Dobson; the fire and brimstone Baptists; Catholics with Pope Benny denying Kerry communion and meeting with Neil Bush. They put aside their differences to persecute gays and women in order to stop abortions and support a war.
Gotta love religion and its long-standing relationship with the right wing!
Speaking of Cheney and the Shiites, I was reminded of this quote in Gary Kamiya’s review of George Pakcer’s book in Salon:
hackworth @
41
Maybe this was paramount in the minds of American Neo-Cons and Likudniks, weaken the ‘enemy’ and reap the spoils.
Sure looks like it is panning out that way.
Looks to me that BLACK OPPS blew up Al Askan Mosque up and blamed the Sunnis in order to get Iran sucked in so we could A bomb then.
James E. Thompson–@ 57– you may very well be right, imho.
OT–
but I can’t stop thinking that if you’re gonna send troops in without equipment, the Scots are doing much better than we are…
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..t_shortage
Thanks, Peterr – duly bookmarked – They look like fun – I’ll come back these when it’s not the middle of the night.
Night all,
Fern
Iraq Insurgents Starve Capital of Electricity
Sparkles at 56-
Makes me wonder how Bush and Friends could engage in such a plan with good buddy Saudi Arabia being naturally, perhaps vehemently, opposed to helping Shiites make any gains.
twolf1 @ 60
Is it really the “insurgents” doing this??
I do wonder.
I’d be interested to understand more about the attracting/repelling forces between Qom and Najaf within Shiite circles as it relates to the emerging relationship between Shia in Iraq and Iran.
There’s another word I’m looking for that I’ve seen paired with Qom – the ‘Um’ or something. It points to an old separation within the Shiite sect that has promoted a degree of separation between Shia in Iran and Iraq.
Joint Chiefs unanimously oppose The Surge.
hackworth 41 — I suspect there’s been bloodshed between sects that Americans didn’t grok.
Hezbollah = Shi’a
Hamas = Sunni
Wahhabi = orthodox Sunni
And then there’s all the other political factions that may or may not be exclusively affiliated with one sect or another.
What were Ba’athists? They were founded upon secular ideas, but were they primarily Sunni?
What is the PLA and the Palestinian Authority? If they’re not Hamas, are they Shi’a? Or Sunni? some sub-sect or school?
If only it was as clear as Ireland…
Pachacutec – if you’re around left you a comment downstairs -208 in EPU time.
Hey TRex and all – sorry to be so late and OT – been that kinda day. So happy everyone is still up. Please excuse me while I catch up on my Late Nite reading of TREX & y’all.
TeddySanFran @ 64
Good Find, TSF. Though carefully worded, it looks like a much bigger rift between the Bush WH and the Pentagram than what they care to share. Note how they avoid the word escalation.
Rayne @ 65
Ireland is an interesting parallel. Although the particular sect is an important marker, it’s not the only one. Some of the strongest Irish nationalists – Wolfe Tone, for example, were Protestant.
The sectarian divisions in Iraq, though important, are also not the only ones. There are also tribal, regional and ideological splits that feed into the current turmoil. We also can’t discount the ideological, political and economic alliances that transcend the sectarian divides.
Yes, Sunni.
This is my next line of inquiry. I also want to find out why Fatah and Hamas are at each other’s throats right now. They’ve just called for early elections to see if Hamas can be ousted from power. Given the hardship imposed on that regime by the international community, I suspect that life under Hamas has not been all that great.
We all need to know this stuff. The Iraq War and its consequences are going to be with us for a long time.
Update: 17 of the Red Crescent kidnap victims have been released, 13 are still held. MfI’s site will have updates direct from Baghdad.
Trex – as always the best source for all of that remains Fisk … check him out. Plus he gives great context from British colonial days and previously covered Northern Ireland so he groks the parallels.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/
One of the best while reasonably short essay’s on the Iraqi Sunni/Shia battle is in the boston review:
http://www.bostonreview.net/BR31.6/rosen.html
Patrick 4/4 — Can’t disagree there; the Kurdish, for example, are an entirely different situation and challenge. A logical solution is an independent Kurdistan, but the very idea is anathema to Turkey and would cause a catastrophic break between the U.S. and Turkey if the U.S. were to endorse it. Not to mention whether this might also rile up other neighboring but less friendly countries bordering the potential independent Kurdistan.
I wonder about the Assyrians; they are never mentioned; same with the Marsh Arabs, nary a mention in the press. Yet they must be woven into the fabric of Iraq.
Rayne @ 73
Which of course, points again to the idiocy of this whole adventure. Rummy was entirely too confident that he had the unknown unknowns under control.
Patrick 4/4 — read between the lines of Sibel Edmond’s writings, and remember that Brewster-Jennings covered Turkey. Remember also that troops deploying to Iraq in early 2003 were delayed by Turkey. There’s also the issue of the PKK; look at its source of funding, just for starters.
Hell yeah. Unknown unknowns under control, my left cheek. Arrogant, stupid white men run amok with this country’s check book, unable to find an encyclopedia to save our lives.
Sorry to all my white male peeps, but you know, after watching a lot of CSPAN and cable news today, I’m really sick of the sound of white middle-aged men in the Beltway bloviating over stuff like Iraq that they don’t understand and about which they’ll never catch a clue.
I fart in the general direction of the White House.
Damnitall, here I am, up way too late again, chatting with FirePups.
Sad: Heath Ledger crying over unrequited love
Sadder: Me crying about Iraq, because even less will come of it than Ledger’s tears.
Rayne @ 78
Tears over Iraq are understandable, but we have to dry those now, keep pressure on the new Congress to do the right thing and get a new President in 08 who will work for the people.
TeddySanFran @
65
gee, wasn’t junya sayin’, just the other day, he was listenin’ to the generals?
TRex, thanks for the needed Islam 101 primer. now, which ones are the birds, and which the bees?
Rayne @ 76
Not only that but they want to make you go to churchy and give parental rights to rapists.
Have at it. The men have effed things up all this time. We need some women in charge.
It’s completely off topic, but here’s the start of that blog I was talking about a few days ago.
Now, to go back and catch up on the comments since I last commented. I’m exhausted.
OldCoastie @
80
we need one of these
“This is my next line of inquiry. I also want to find out why Fatah and Hamas are at each other’s throats right now. They’ve just called for early elections to see if Hamas can be ousted from power. Given the hardship imposed on that regime by the international community, I suspect that life under Hamas has not been all that great.”
As far as I know, all the Palestinians are Sunni. However, that has not been a major element of Palestinian identity. Since many Israelis have said that Palestinians are just Arabs and should assimilate into other Arab nations, to emphasize a Sunni identity would actually undercut their specifically Palestinian identity and their claim to lands in Israel/Palestine.
I read somewhere today that the Saudis have offered large funding to Fatah if it will crush Hamas, because Hamas is tied to Iran. Also, Fatah is secular and Hamas Islamist.
(Yes, Hamas is Sunni and Iran is Shiite, but in this case what is more important to them is that Hamas has wanted funding from Iran and Iran has wanted the prestige of being seen as helping the fight against Israel. For that matter, Fatah has always been secular, so for them to be backed by the ultra-religious Saudis is odd. More than Northern Ireland, this resembles the 30 Years War.)
OldCoastie @ 80
He meant to say hearin’. He wuz hearin’ the generals. He’s listenin’ to god. God told him to strike so he did and do still he strike.
Theres a sayin in Tennessee an in Texas. Don’t get fooled agin! But we did!
DreamingCrow @ 83
bravo! beautifully expressed and written.
this is such an important topic and you certainly can be an enormous help and resource for people.
good luck!
I just wrote both my (D) Senators. Usually I try to have a monicum of politeness, but somehow the words, “that nitwit, Bush” just slipped so easily right into the emails.
I’m not calling him “president” any more.
I’m going to try a bit harder to let my outrage show with my own Tom-Delay-Republican Congress Idiot.
angie @ 87
great start. I hope you find light at the end of that tunnel.
angie @ 86
Well done, indeed. If there are any resources that haave been helpful to you, add them to your sidebar. You are off to an impressive start.
Well, has someone now actually explained the basic sectarian distinctions of the region to President Dimbulb? I demand proof that he has a clue today. Was he even curious enough to ask?
g’ night, all… past my bedtime…
DreamingCrow @ 83
Wow DC, whatever you do, don’t get so exhausted that you stop that superb writing at your new blog!
Is there anything we can help you with?
John @ 91
C’mon, you know that answer…did you have to ask?
TeddySanFran @ 65
TeddySanFran @ 65
Note that the WaPo has totally bought the White House’s framing of the debate–it repeatedly speaks of a “surge” without using quotation marks, rather than the perhaps more descriptive [and clearly understood, to those whith memories of Vietnam] term “escalation.” A “surge” suggests a temporary upswell, whereas “escalation” seems more open-ended, as would be what the White House is suggesting.
OldCoastie @ 92
gnight OC!
rwcole @
20
resistance is feudal
Kevin Rooney 85 — my comment about Ireland upthread was that Ireland was easier.
Not that the players were necessarily along sectarian, political or national lines, but there were fewer factions.
And the U.S. grokked the nature of the problem, being as Irish as it is.
But look how long it took for Ireland resolve its unrest…daunting to think how long in comparison Iraq may take.
neuro, I’ve also written to Peter Baker that his characterization of a “split” in the Bush Administration is wrong. The American military is unanimously opposed to the White House proposal, and the American military is NOT part of the Bush Administration.
Not sure the point will get across, but there’s some pretty un-subtle framing and stenography in Baker’s article tomorrow.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 96
night, fini -that punaise… he’s pretty damn funny…
angie @
87
Thanks, Angie. I’m going to be working on this as I have time, which is obviously not too much right now. I have hope, though.
what a way to leave this mortal coil:
bonne nuit, OldCoastie…
punaise @
89
Thank you.
Patrick 4/4 @ 90
That would be one of the next steps. If I ever get this stupid project done and not hanging over my head, I’ll have more time to devote to it.
Baker’s article — this part:
– kinda makes it sound like every single Pentagon commander is asking the C-in-C, “What the fuck’s the mission, dude?”
Dude, of course, is clueless.
punaise @ 97
Bush = Sheriff of Nottingham?
punaise @ 101
And as Gilroy is home to the Garlic Festival…
I hope you find light at the end of that tunnel.
better yet: I hope we can help light the way through the tunnel, in some small way
Driveby- shout out to Punaise.
Mad Dogs @ 93
Um, wow. Thanks. I’m really overwhelmed by all the kind words about the writing.
I don’t know of anything yet, but I can guarantee you that I’ll be picking brains here.
Aloha kakou, ‘Pups. Malama pono!
Valley Girl @ 109
heh. *waving* – smoked ya out!
punaise @ 108
Thank you. You all are already helping.
Patrick 4/4 @ 107
Oh man, the karma of dying in garlic stanking poo has GOT to put you front of the line if you’re not that evil. Or maybe whoever the pilot was maybe was a closeted gay minister sex offender that marketed asbestos laced cigarettes to children of crack addicts.
Punaise- yeah! So you did smoke me out. Great post by TRex. Great to get back to some serious stuff. Still unhappy with some of the regs. who were pitching c*** ha-ha on the after-language c*** thread. Truely pissed me off in fact. Hope that doesn’t ever happen again here. But, I will remember your dark sides. (not you, Punaise).
hey VG!
Secular and sectarian distinctions aside, at bottom, Bushco doesn’t actually care about stabilizing Iraq, beyond making it tolerable for a continuing U.S. presence to guarantee a flow of oil to the West.
For all the free market posturing of the neo-cons, there is a basic distrust that we will be able to compete with the rising oil suck that is China, and not far behind, India. The Chinese are already competing for oil contracts in Africa and there is no way we are going to let them into the bidding for Mid East oil. Permanent bases in Iraq are the goal, along with our new buddies in Kazakhstan, to bracket the Mid East with U.S. troops to “protect” the oil fields. And, to pose a not-so-subtle threat to our friends that they don’t dare sell it to anybody else.
Iraq was supposed to be a push-over – and it was – for about six weeks.
TeddySanFran @
105
So they’re against the plan, but no one has the guts to say so to the President’s face. Is that about right?
Patrick 4/4 @ 117
pushed over the edge of a cliff, unfortunately
Senorita del Valle!
Patrick 4/4 @ 120
Hope the message sent has registered. I was very disappointed by your behavior.
The Codpiece in Chief doesn’t do so well with unpleasant news delivery. My guess is no one wants to hear his yappin’.
Hmmm. If the U.S. military forces “surge” in Iraq, does that make them “insurgents”?
Oh, Shit!
Subway Serenade @ 124
No doubt the last words of the sad bastard pilot. I’m gonna have nightmares about this tonight
I’m certain. I can’t stop thinking about the absolute horror of this story. The family is who I feel the most for.
Wow, I’m really surprised to see people called out in tonight’s comments for comments made on another thread quite some time ago. That qualifies as highjacking and is to be avoided, I would think….
Punaise- thanks for the sewage pit crash story. Sad for the pilot and passengers, of course, but in a meta kind of way, so funny. Have you thought about sending your FDL CV to The Onion?
Valley Girl @ 127
sad as it is, you can’t make that kind of stuff up. well, you could, but “truth is stranger than fiction”, and all that.
If I had to choose another career it would be to write for The Onion.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @
125
I pity the first responders.
TeddySanFran @ 126
Well then, you have no idea of the hurt and anger caused. If it were not for the dearness of Punaise, I would have never come back to FDL.
Valley Girl @ 120
Mine in particular?
Bob Geiger lists the Senators up for reelection in 2008.
Democratic
Max Baucus (D-MT)
Joseph Biden (D-DE)
Richard Durbin (D-IL)
Tom Harkin (D-IA)
Tim Johnson (D-SD)
John Kerry (D-MA)
Mary Landrieu (D-LA)
Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Carl Levin (D-MI)
Mark Pryor (D-AR)
Jack Reed (D-RI)
John Rockefeller (D-WV)
Republican
Lamar Alexander (R-TN)
Wayne Allard (R-CO)
Saxby Chambliss (R-GA)
Thad Cochran (R-MS)
Norm Coleman (R-MN)
Susan Collins (R-ME)
John Cornyn (R-TX)
Larry Craig (R-ID)
Elizabeth Dole (R-NC)
Pete Domenici (R-NM)
Michael Enzi (R-WY)
Lindsey Graham (R-SC)
Chuck Hagel (R-NE)
James Inhofe (R-OK)
Mitch McConnell (R-KY)
Pat Roberts (R-KS)
Jeff Sessions (R-AL)
Gordon Smith (R-OR)
Ted Stevens (R-AK)
John Sununu (R-NH)
John Warner (R-VA)
Two thoughts.
1) Looks like John Kerry and Joe Biden are going to have to decide what their priorities are.
2) I would like to be the first to contribute to the campaign of whoever runs against Saxby “Rancid Sack of Shit” Chambliss, if I could figure out who that is going to be.
Is Max Cleland going to attempt a comeback? If so, I will be extra generous.
Valley Girl, good to see you.
TRex, this is very interesting. It isn’t hard to understand, really. It’s important that we do understand it.
Give me a few days, a few flash cards and some treats, and I bet I could have the prez himself understanding it.
No, scratch that.
I think I’ll take little walk….
http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/16132836.htm
but he is a good man and a vet– maybe we can persuade him with a fine & progressive recruitment campaign.
Patrick 4/4- No, not just you. I replied to you because it seemed so totally out of character for you.
Because I’ve managed to depress myself with the blog and this subject, here’s something that makes me smile, a product of my other hobby.
Raven in Winter #5: Flight
..but first, I kid you not: on the same page as the Gilroy incident, this headline for another article:
I Drowned Winnie The Pooh
TRex, Great post. Many thanks from a professor.
punaise @ 134
Punaise- first real laugh in a long time! LOL
TRex, great post. I’m outta here tonight, clearly the company’s got yesterthread on its mind, why that’s important I don’t know, smell ya later…..
Dreaming Crow–fabulous photo, thanks!
TeddySanFran @ 141
No, you obviously don’t.
Many years ago I ran across an old paperback book (don’t recall the name but checked at the time and it was out of print) by an american who was traveling the world in the 50’s looking for snake charmers and other quirky acts. I think he wrote and sold magazine articles to finance his trip (just barely). He started out in Egypt went through Iraq and on to India. In Iraq a few of the stories were of a very violent rather multi tribal country under such a heavy religious authoritarian rule, he barely got out alive. The stories were harrowing for even an experienced traveler. Gambling, whore houses, bribery, corruption on all sides, everyone carried guns, especially brutal police were just a way of life. Lots of poor folks, lots of micro tribal rituals to observe or die on the spot. Lots of hypocrisy.
The guy was a street smart traveler, not an arrogant or flashy american in demeanor. He left Iraq without any belongings (robbed daily), any money (robbed and swindled repeatedly) and just glad to be alive ( also escaped torture situations).
Doesn’t sound like much has changed in Iraq nor will it change anytime soon.
angie @ 135
In the happy event our momentum continues and we actually put a Democrat in the White House surely a hero like Max Cleland would be tapped for a meaningful appointment by the new President (dare I say Pelosi?)
Oh please do, often and loud enough for Cheney to wake up when he hears you…)
I have no idea of what stresses are causing what in the comments tonight.
I think I’ll say thanks Mr. TRex for filling in some of the gaps in this old dog’s education and ask for more, please.
Suzanne – Ditto and hiya..)
Valley Girl @
136
Indeed, it would be out of character. I double-checked to make sure i wasn’t misremembering. I did not comment at all on the Tauscher thread that started it all, and i went through all my comments on th “On Language” thread to see what might givve offence. I found nothing that I could construe as especially insulting or sexist.
In fact, my opening position was, and is, that while I am not offended by language, I can see how others might be, and how our failure to take their legitimate offense works against us.
That said, can you see, by the reactions that people seem to be having to your approach tonight, that that approach also seems to lack an understanding of how commenters and posters might have a legitmate disagreement with what you believe?
Is it not possible that people of good will might disagree with you on methods and manners without intending to give offense to you? I hope so. You have been a valuable voice here, and have been missed.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 146
Well ok Eureka Springs – happy to do so. In my comment to Pachacutec – in previous thread #208 – I seriously postulate Pelosi for President 2007. My bumper stickers, pins and long sleeved tee arrived the other day and even my conservative friends in Pebble Beach and Monterey – all three of them – said they’d vote for her. Bush/Cheney are finished here. Leon Panetta is a beloved local icon and served on the Iraq Study Group.
Sorry, everybody. Got called away from the computer.
How are things? Am I going to have to separate some of you?
TRex @ 151
Trust your instincts. So long as you’ve already eaten.
There’s major cat cuteness happening here. Juan Carlos is playing hockey with a wadded up ATM receipt. There’s just something so samurai-like about them when they go all cross-eyed and ferocious.
I love Eureka Springs! (The town… I don’t know the commenter…)
Santa is a cylon, by the way. Incontrovertible proof here.
яояšдč @ 154
Uh.
Mah.
Gawd.
Hilarious.
So say we all.
TRex @ 155
You never see Santa at Starbucks. Why is that?
DreamingCrow @
83
Oh good, I’m glad to see it. Thanks for letting us know!
Well, now that I am done speaking my piece on a private mailing list about a free speech issue, I can get back to FDL and say that the carnivorous reptile has offered up a very good post tonight, exhibiting, if anything, that a half-hour on Google provides more information than the president of the United States is capable of absorbing in a lifetime….
newspaperbrat – Yes I read your late addition (EPU) on the last thread. Are you going to sell Pelosi promotional goods? If so I want a T-shirt!
Panetta needs to stand up quickly speak out against Bush Jr. for ignoring the ISG report, imo. Someone posted a link earlier today where he expresses his dismay in a way that made him sound rather out of touch with his expectations from Bush.. (sorry I don’t have the link)
montag @ 158
But if you went to The Google, you might come up with a different answer.
Valley Girl @
143
wtf?
яояšдč @ 154
Jumpin Judas Priest!
Kids, I’m beat. Everybody have a good night.
g’nite Mr. TRex, and more please!
яояšдč @ 154
Hey Rorschach. Good to see you. Well we still have a few hotties running around their folks hotels and don’t tell everyone about our little progressive oasis *s*. You ever get out this way again let me know…)
Thanks again, TRex for this great introduction. I’m looking forward to learning more! Sleep well, dear theropod.
TRex @ 163
Tu aussi.
Patrick 4/4 @ 160
Yeah, maybe. But, what is lost in all of this is: George W. Bush and/or his Poopy have been in the pocket of the Arabs for well on forty years. Putz knows that it’s a sign of friendship for men to hold hands in Arab communities (we know he does because we have pictures of him doing it), but he’s never asked an elemental question about schisms in Muslim religion in all these years? That’s a fuckin’ dolt, pure and simple. No curiosity about anything, except who’s going to pay the bills he’s run up.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 165
That I shall, ES. I used to have a huge crush on a girl whose parents owned the Alpendorf, way back when…
Not the only reason I ever went there, but it was a reason for a while there.
Sleep well, TRex. Thanks for another fine post!
I remember your alpenette stories, amigo, I remember.
montag @ 168
I wouldn’t ay in the pocket. I think it’s a mutually benficial relationship. As in any business, there are frictions. Sometimes, it’s helpful, you know, to call in your lawyer to point out a clause your business associate may have overlooked.
The Bush’s lawyers, in this instance, are the Third Infantry Division.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 171
If that’s addressed to me, then I’m confused, as I don’t believe I’ve ever mentioned her online. Or to anyone I know in real life, for many years.
Oh yes, you mentioned it to me right here. You went to or lived in Fayetnam etc.
Hrm. When would that have been?
Good night to anybody who’s still hanging around.
It’s been a few months. Don’t worry about it, heck I am a bit surprised I remember it but your name is unique (and popping up strange tonite). Noone else on the internet has told me of an old romance with the cute little alpendorf hotel girl. What else can I say?
Hot chocolate anyone?
g’nite P 4/4 sleep well.
http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s798664.htm
Someone upthread brought this up…
I thought I remembered reading something about the Saudi royals, and how they had to give in to some demands from their much more devout/extreme citizens in order for there to be peace in the country.
Just imagine our country if we’d cut a deal like that with the Bob Jones U. crowd!
Yeah, I’ve been playing with the Character Map, so my name looks all funky.
You’ve a better memory than I. But alas, there was no romance–no reciprocation. I just longed for a while… so it goes, no?
I’m impressed that you remembered!
Margot @ 179
We’re not that far away from that, if one considers the agenda of the religious far-right and the extent to which they’ve insinuated themselves into the Republican Party.
The problem that the Saudi royals have is that they’re basically corrupt–politically and religiously–so they pay off the radical religious types in their country to leave them alone. The money they give to the radical mullahs funds madrassas which produce ever more radical students who demand more and more social and religious repression.
They’ve created their own monster, and they keep feeding it in order to prevent the mullahs from condemning them publicly.
TRex has a way with words, but this latenight post was the first one I remember here that gave Juan Cole his full due. Maybe I missed one that did it better, but…..
So much information, so few people interested in digesting it rationally.
Margot @ 179
I think we may have.
At the end of your link:
We are leaving Saudi people no choice (as they see it) but to support their own nut cases.
Fundie-mentals everywhere.
Ed*ard Teller @ 182
Agreed. The daily JC piece (as well as TRex’s post) needs to be Spotlighted to Senators & C/Critters
Frank Probst @
118
maybe jim webb would be willing to tutor them ….
Eureka Springs, AR @ 183
I would, alternatively, suggest that it’s not the “Saudi people” that have no choice. Saudi Arabia is a monarchy controlled by a relatively small percentage of its population. It is the interests of the Saudi royals which are dominant here.
Cheers.
fahrender – Kudos to you for your late roundup on the book salon thread.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 187
i’m having some vacation time at the moment so i’ve been posting more these past few days. i don’t recall off hand what i said so maybe i’ll go back and check to see what you have reference to. but, thanks! it’s always nice to know about approval …..
Kevin Rooney @
51
i usually dismiss stereotypes. my radar goes up real quick. here are some observations from direct experience however:
i was in sudan for three years during which time i dealt with saudis, libyans, pakistanis, indians, iraqis, egyptians, palestinians, malaysians, iranians and sudanese (northern and southern).
sunnis of whatever nationality are expected to make the pilgrimage to mecca. if one wants to rise very far in the hierarchy of muslim society this must be done. it all links to the saudis. perhaps, in part, for this reason saudis are regarded by the others as snooty and arrogant. they are often resented.
my experience, admittedly anecdotal, is that sunnis, whether saudi or not, look askance at the shiia. sunnis regard the shiia as misguided. case closed. how this could translate into violence may be a stretch but, you may be sure, it certainly doesn’t work against that possibility.
shortly after i went to sudan, i happened to be in kenya after having travelled to ethiopia for a conference. it just happened that i picked up a book by v.s. naipaul entitiled “beyond belief”. it’s about how non-arab countries which have been converted to islam have fared in recent years. at the opening of the book, naipaul is visiting indonesia. naipaul is a master of english prose, perhaps the greatest of the twenty-first century. a few days later, having returned to khartoum, the first al qaeda bombing of bali took place. suddenly, reading this book had an entirely new urgency for me. his first book on this subject is called “among the believers”. both are excellent.
“among the believers” was written first. naipaul travelled to iran (shortly after the khomeini revolution). he then visited pakistan, malaysia, indonesia and india. in “beyond belief” he revisited those countries and tried to find the people he had met on his first visit. naipaul doesn’t pretent to be a scholar, nor does he pretend to be objective but he is a first rate mind and brilliant writer. anybody that wants to understand how islam works in the world should read naipaul.
TRex,
Thanks for providing the info. Too many Americans don’t have a clue about Islam and need info like yours to understand, even a little, what is happening in Iraq.
I’m a long-time lurker with little to say, but I always enjoy your posts. You remind me of a couple of gay friends that I used to hang out with (I’m straight) and the snarky dialogs we had.
Good stuff.
kevin,
sorry, i should’ve said that i am certainly not an expert either. the brits also did that nasty little trick of divide and conquer in sudan as well. it’s hard to say how much they should be blamed for the ensuing results but the list is pretty damning:
india (pakistan, bangladesh)
cyprus
palestine
iraq
sudan
kenya
OldCoastie @
88
(laugh-clapping) This is pretty funny, and also a common problem, I suspect. One could do like Meteor Blades from Next Hurrah, etc., and call him Mister Bush. Spelled out all the time, just like that.
Me, I have a half-dozen or so nicknames I throw at my own problem with overwhelmed discipline and him, sort of in “honor” of his insistence on calling one and all out of their names—Bootsy, Brush, stuff like that. Then there are those other names …
Great Monday threads, which I’ve just got to reading. Thanks especially to CHS for the one on Abrams, and to the commenters—I know Jane was one, but there was at least one other—who linked Abrams’ getaway from I-C repercussions with the deadness and cynicism that so many of us have struggled with since then. That whole, obviously rigged debacle turned me off for a while when it happened, but never again.
Patrick 4/4 @
107
Ah, reminds me of an old s.o., a former recon marine and all-around unique character. (My apologies if I’ve told this before.) He suffered his most severe wound in Vietnam by setting off something called a bouncing Betty while he was in a fresh rice paddy “doing something stupid. That would be when you get hurt.” His last coherent thought, spoken with great deliberation, before losing consciousness: “I am falling into shit.”
He said it was partly the conviction that his life could not possibly end like that helped him hang on. I never saw him with a more reverent attitude than when he spoke of the rescuers, medics, doctors and nurses who found him out in the boonies and brought him through weeks of raging infections, though.
Good morning, all. Today’s experiment was block quotes, which sort of worked. If you want to take a gander at the NYT columnists you can find them here:
http://mgpaquin.blogspot.com/
Nicholas Kristof from Cambodia, and a Harvard sociology prof who starts off with
Is this working better???
The Shiite has hit the fan.
Al Franken has mentioned quite a few times an anecdote involving Bush not knowing the diff between Sunni,Shia and the Kurds in the run up to his war(and it is his war-we will only inherit his mess-the gift that keeps on giving,as it were). And who is really surprised by that,considering the man hasn’t even mastered differences in THIS country,or mastered our language. The fence around my veggie garden has more intellectual curiosity and common sense than this buffoon.
wow trex, nice job educating those of us with little or no understanding of the problems in Iraq
could you now tie the kurds into the picture?
Marion in Savannah @194
Well, certainly I can read them now.
I appreciate your effort and hope it flies under the radar…
We’ll keep it on the downlow .
That’s simple – they have alot of oil, a well developed civil government and are doing their best to stay out of the way.
Now, consider their relations with Turkey and their neighbors to the north and you will see more potential conflict and de-stabilization.
perris @ 197
Good morning. Could not sleep anymore.
Very interesting post TRex. Thanks. The only thing I knew already was that Bush is an idiot. Also I believe that, like Norquist wanted, they have broken the government and now that many are worried about the deficit, they will try to solve the problem by cutting the safety net of young and old.
That was the plan all along. Isn’t Wall Street doing swimmingly? Absolutely. Aren’t all the rich republican doing well? Absotootingly. So, they have succeeded. Now if they can just spin his legacy.
And can’t someone please call up Leon Panetta and ask how we knew that Bush, the junveile, was going to mess up whatever plan there was, and he did not? I find that amazing he is so surprised that Bush is not listening.
HELLLOOOOOOOO D.C. Time to wake the ***ck up.
Mornin’.
Also one other note. Totally off any topic.
Come January, I will be reserving rooms for Yearly Kos. I will be coming in on Sunday, Aug. 1 and leaving Aug. 5 p.m. I am hoping to find a roommate to share expenses with me. Someone had mentioned this earlier and I hope we can do that.
Funny though, the Yearly Kos webswite for lodging has this disclaimer about not pairing up ’strangers, friends or lovers.’ Ummmmm
Back to listening, and LEARNING, mode.
Good morning egregious. Surprised a bit that with at least one of your children home for the holidays you are here this early.
OR if, like me, I can’t turn my mind off. It just keeps going from one worry to the next until I distract myself. I knit 10 pairs of mittens as gifts and my kitchen looks like a gift wrapping present mess. My kitty is veeeery happy chasing the ribbons around.
There are significant class elements to the Sunni-Shia divide as well.
Historically, in the Arab world the Sunni have been the ruling class and the Shia have been excluded from power. Iraq is an oddity in the Middle East, in that it is a majority Shia country that is also predominantly Arab.
The Sunni elites throughout the Middle East have been nervous ever since the Iranian revolution — they view the prospect of Shia political empowerment with horror, since they view the Shia as unsophisticated, heretical rabble.
Therefore, most of the violence in Iraq has been instigated by Sunni foreign muj working in concert with the more violent Iraqi Sunnis, looking to destabilize and delegitimize any Shia-majority government. Until recently there has been a power struggle on the Shia side, between the moderate scholar al-Sistani (an Iranian cleric living in Najaf whose mentor was a major rival and critic of Ayatollah Khomeini) and the radical and violent populist al-Sadr.
Before the war, Sistani was extremely influential in Shia politics, and preached that the Shia should exercise restraint in response to Sunni violence, instead focusing on building their new government. Sadr became a warlord, creating and arming his militia and conducting violent reprisals against Sunni militants. Sistani had brought Sadr to heel for a time, but now it’s pretty clear that Sadr’s faction has won. Sistani has more-or-less given up and retreated to his books, and the Mahdi Army is engaged in a program of sectarian slaughter that rivals that of the Sunnis.
Iran is an entirely different matter. They are of course sympathetic to the Shia and looking to create a Shia-controlled buffer zone between themselves and the rest of the Middle East. Most of the Iraqi Shia are generally friendly to Iran, but would balk at installing a puppet government that takes orders from Tehran. The Arab-Persian cultural divide goes quite a bit deeper than Shia unity, and neither side has forgotten the Iran-Iraq war. So for the time being Iran has contented itself with arming Shia militias, assassinating the occcasional Sunni leader, and biding its time, waiting to be invited to the table to discuss the future of Iraq.
I would highly recommend The Shia Revival by Vali Nasr; it does a great job of explaining how the historical and theological divide between Shia and Sunni has taken on several cultural and political dimensions as well.
prostratedragon @
192
anybody that calls one of his closest associates turdblossom deserves what he gets. his arrogance and meanness, alone, invite whatever epithets we can heap on him. that’s why i call him fuckwad.
Great idea for a post, TRex. This is very helpful. Thanks for putting this together.
There was a Middle Eastern Studies professor from George Washington University on the radio the other night doing a very good interview about Islam, and one of the significant influences on Shia he mentioned was that Iran had the experience and memory of being an empire before it was (mostly) converted to Shia Islam, and this has colored Shiism as Iran became the dominant Shiite country. I wish I could remember more of the details; now I’ll have to go look it up.
With all due respect to Prof Cole, it was Linus, not Schroeder that was the unlucky recipient of Lucy’s lectures. Schroeder is the child musical prodigy who is the object of Lucy’s unrequited love (Schroeder was modelled on Van Cliburn who is openly gay which probably explains Schroeder’s indifference).
Kevin Rooney @ 85
Also important to remember is that the PLO, which became Fatah, was not only secular but socialist, which is one of the big reasons why the US was so utterly opposed to them during the Cold War.
OMG T Rex – you are soooo teh clevah !
help for the older folks w/ no teenagers in the house
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLZT-2SVsKU
Let’s talk about sects, bab-y
Let’s talk about Shia and Sunn-i
Let’s talk about al-Sadr & Sistani
And the coming Shia Crescent that may be
Let’s talk about sects
Let’s talk about sects
This president uninformed? Who would have guessed?
Redshift — yes, amazing, isn’t it, that cultural memory is so deep? It boggled my mind during the Clinton Administration that we were trying to resolve ethnic strife in Serbia that went back nearly a thousand years; now we are wrapped up in differences that extend back nearly a thousand years before Christ.
Matt McKeon (204) mentions the Arab-Persian divide; it’s compounded in language, split between the Arabic and Farsi. The Kurds also have an entirely separate language, too. Bugs me that we’ve heard so much about the lack of Arabic-translators or Arabic-speaking troops, but very little about the need for Farsi or Kurdish. Yet one more sign of our apparent lack of comprehension.
oh and Good Morning Firedogs !
Redshift – was it this guy ???
http://www.amazon.com/Shia-Rev…..0393062112
although I think he’s w/ Naval Post Grad in Monterey
along with all we need to know of the peoples of the region, it wouldn’t hurt to read up on it’s ‘treasure’
http://www.amazon.com/Prize-Ep…..mp;s=books
now in paperback, and Gilliard his own self listed it in his top 5 fave non fictions
TRex @ 70
It hasn’t, but it has also generated great cynicism about democracy among the Palestinians, since they (correctly) perceive the international community’s attitude as “it’s great that you’re a democracy, but if you elect the wrong people, we’ll force them out.”
I’ve also read some discussion about how it seems reasonable to require parties to renounce violence to participate in the political system. It seems to me that’s taking a standard position for a civil-war situation (where that is indeed essential) and trying to apply it in cookie-cutter fashion to a situation where most of the violence is directed externally. What does it mean to “renounce violence” in order to participate in the “government” of an occupied land which is not permitted to have an army or control its borders?
Will be sending a copy of this highly informative post to
Silvestre Reyes – incoming House Intel Chair
or
Idiot Boy as we Texas Hippies like to call him – he has also ‘had some trouble’ in the recent past with the subject matter
he’s also advocating sending another 20k troops for the coming Sadr City bloodfest
and to think of the time wasted visiting Cornyn and Hutchison’s offices – No Cobbler For You – One Year !!! sheessh !
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…../134551/57
Morning all — fresh thread, everyone.
Thanks to everyone here for the great educational conversation in this thread and post. I think that the understanding will not be more beneficial until we also understand the covert forces working to manipulate the sects/parties/govts all along. Redshift’s comments on perceived democracy might be a good start. When the true power of controlling events is shadowed politcs/business that “allows survival” through coercion, then how genuine is our understanding of the events we can see?
Ok, who are we Christians to point fingers, what with all of the killin’ and burnin’ we have done over the centuries due to sectarian violence. But it seems to me that Josh Marshall may be right about something: the Muslim world is in need of a Reformation. It is bubbling over with tension. They need a Martin Luther to point to a new direction that will lead the vast majority of Muslims to a new understanding of their faith and leave the extremists to battle it for the tiny swath of Muslims who are left.
What I can’t understand is why the Muslim world does not seem to produce these kinds of leaders. Could it be that questioning the Koran in any way is so blasphemous and carries such a dangerous fatwa that few are willing to attempt such a thing? If so, the Muslim Reformation is going to be a bloody thing and personally, I don’t think we want to be in the middle of it.
Muhammed should have spent a little more time on administrative details.
An Angry Old Broad @
196
This is the voter’s fault. It was well known months before the election that Bush was a lightweight with respect to international affairs. He knew nothing about the coup in Pakistan and that turned out to be pretty important in the long run.
But NOooooOOoo. The press treated us to endless popularity contests. Who would you rather have a beer with? Who would you rather invite to a barbeque? Doesn’t Bush swagger? Isn’t he hot? (Gag me)
That is why it is so important that THIS time, the candidates should be able to ace a “Wait, Wait! Don’t Tell Me.” quiz with flying colors. No more of the “I’m just an average guy. I’m like you.” crap. Anyone who tries to pull that this time should be called what he is: a moron. And lots of mockery and shame should be heaped upon the person who even begins to think he can get away with it.
I think it is funny when somebody calls somebody else ignorant for not knowing what they dont know themselves. But good on ya for being honest about it!
Fahender
Thanks for the info. I will check out the Naipul book.
Kevin
fahrender @
191
What’s the beef, kitty?
TRex and the rest of the FirePups here like myself don’t have access to the intelligence resources of the U.S. Government, including the State Department. Seems like the American President should have the best command of these resources and actually use them, since it’s part of his job. It’s hardly funny that we have to call the American President on this; cripes, all he had to do was use the toobz and Google and he’d have learned the difference between Shi’a and Sunni. It’s not funny; it’s sad and a criminal shame.
Matt McKeon @
204
This is something I was wondering about. We may see some future posts about class in the Muslim world.
Thanks, TREX for the helpful post. I’ve been vaguely aware that there’s an important difference between Sunni/Shiite, and that it had to do with succession. But that was about all I knew. Your summary and excerpts have already improved my state of understanding.
These links to the invaluable Juan Cole and to the Foreign Policy Watch blog are my required reading for today (along with those little articles my doctoral committee has suggested that I, uh, peruse).
Happy holidays to all from this faithful reader and semi-lurkish poster!
FITZ!!11!!1
/ that was my first FITZ.
// It felt good.
/// Burma.
Great article. One question: while the current violence is unprecedented, is it not fair to say that sectarian tensions were already existent in Iraq, inflamed by nearly 40 years of oppressive Sunni rule? In other words, is the violence primarily a reaction to the occupation, or is it rooted more in settling old greivances?
I think she was refering to the following night’s thread.
P4/4 – I can’t speak on VG’s behalf, but I believe she (and some others) took major umbrage at the deliberately provocative follow-up Late Nite post which devolved into a lot of gratuitous cussing, IIRC.
punaise @ 228
Following Pach’s or the language thread?
following the language thread. with the Tori Amos header.
I briefly scanned that thread and saw mostly music links from you, so I may be way off base on this.
or maybe it was this one:
http://www.firedoglake.com/200…..-stood-up/
punaise @ 230
I understand the provocation of the post. I understand why she’s angry.
I’m baffled as to my part in it.
P4/4, I dunno. perhaps she’ll back soon, and you can ask for elaboration….or not.
punaise @ 232
I don’t think so. It’s OK. Sometimes when people get angry they swing wildly. I meant what I said farther up this thread. I miss her commenting and would be happy if she came back.
Thanks for sorting through this with me.
sorry not to be a better informed go-between. if you really are curious to pursue it, I can email you.
punaise @ 236
Probably best to let it go. If she feels like coming back or elaborating on it she’s more than welcome. It’s nitpick at adelphia dot net btw.
okee-doke. I’ll shoot you an email just for future offline use, if need be. now, back to work (for me, that is)!
punaise @ 238
Ta!