Comments on: Who’s Driving the Bus? http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/ Firedoglake weblog Wed, 25 Nov 2009 21:01:04 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: mogthemonk http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-423132 mogthemonk Mon, 18 Dec 2006 14:30:01 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-423132 <p>I believe this “surge” is intended purely to launch an assault on Sadr city, whether the rumoured assault on the Green Zone occurs over Christmas or not. This could be part of the price paid to the Saudis not to officially fund and arm the Sunnis. Even Powell commented yesterday that the numbers weren’t enough to bring Baghdad under control which leaves an assault against the Sadr militia as the only realistic option IMO.</p> I believe this “surge” is intended purely to launch an assault on Sadr city, whether the rumoured assault on the Green Zone occurs over Christmas or not. This could be part of the price paid to the Saudis not to officially fund and arm the Sunnis. Even Powell commented yesterday that the numbers weren’t enough to bring Baghdad under control which leaves an assault against the Sadr militia as the only realistic option IMO.

]]> By: rumi http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-423090 rumi Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:37:21 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-423090 <p>Here’s a way to frame the issue that folks will understand. The ’surge’ could be called <i>Task Force:Target Practice</i> because that’s all that number of troops would provide to Iraq.</p> Here’s a way to frame the issue that folks will understand. The ’surge’ could be called Task Force:Target Practice because that’s all that number of troops would provide to Iraq.

]]> By: Mike http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422961 Mike Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:20:33 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422961 <p>Don, it’s noble and all of you to feel bad for our troops, who volunteered to die for Bush’s follies, but maybe you can save a little bit of sympathy for the 600,000 dead Iraqis who most certainly did not? I still don’t understand how anyone can think that one human life has any more value than another- it’s absurd. (<b>Not making that accusation of you Don</b>, just pointing that out because I rarely see anyone asking realistically what is good for the Iraqis and what the Iraqis want, rather than what advances American interests. Funny because all these neocon leaders always say that they’re liberating or helping Iraqis, when in reality they couldn’t give a damn about them, judging by their tactics.)</p> Don, it’s noble and all of you to feel bad for our troops, who volunteered to die for Bush’s follies, but maybe you can save a little bit of sympathy for the 600,000 dead Iraqis who most certainly did not? I still don’t understand how anyone can think that one human life has any more value than another- it’s absurd. (Not making that accusation of you Don, just pointing that out because I rarely see anyone asking realistically what is good for the Iraqis and what the Iraqis want, rather than what advances American interests. Funny because all these neocon leaders always say that they’re liberating or helping Iraqis, when in reality they couldn’t give a damn about them, judging by their tactics.)

]]> By: Don N http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422956 Don N Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:06:55 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422956 <p>The ppt presentation is amazingly silly. There really wouldn’t be much reason for it to get to the president - other than making him feel good. It shows no understanding of what is happening in Iraq at all. If the author hadn’t been killed he would be an object of ridicule. I am so sorry for our country. I am so sorry for our troops caught in such a trap with idiots like this as leaders.</p> The ppt presentation is amazingly silly. There really wouldn’t be much reason for it to get to the president – other than making him feel good. It shows no understanding of what is happening in Iraq at all. If the author hadn’t been killed he would be an object of ridicule. I am so sorry for our country. I am so sorry for our troops caught in such a trap with idiots like this as leaders.

]]> By: Ron Russell http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422954 Ron Russell Mon, 18 Dec 2006 07:01:58 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422954 <p>Has anyone considered the last historical instance when a country “surged” it’s military like we are about to do in Iraq? <b>In terms of a military surge, the Battle of the Bulge comes to mind and it hastened the fall of Hitler’s Germany. Sure, they gained some ground in the short term, but the loss of men, tanks, etc made the whole thing a Loser for the Germans.</b> “Surge” as Powell said today is nothing more than speeding up the deployments that are planned and leaving those there, there without the relief they were expecting. From a National Security perspective, this “Surge” is an unmitigated disaster. What if we had a real crisis, instead of George Bush’s phony war? How long could the stripped fortifications in South Korea hold off the North? I don’t understand how the residents of WingNuttia can’t be afraid of China conquering Taiwan. If our military is broken, how in heck would we even raise a fuss if they decided to take that island? At this time, when folks on our side of the isle get into it with Wing Nuts, we should ask them what do we do if a real emergency (like China), comes our way, when our military has been ground under in Bush’s Quagmire!</p> <p>It will take years to expand the force to the level they would need in Iraq and they’d have to re-introduce Conscription to get it. Then again, even another million troops can’t fix the mess Chimpy McClusterPhuck has made.</p> Has anyone considered the last historical instance when a country “surged” it’s military like we are about to do in Iraq? In terms of a military surge, the Battle of the Bulge comes to mind and it hastened the fall of Hitler’s Germany. Sure, they gained some ground in the short term, but the loss of men, tanks, etc made the whole thing a Loser for the Germans. “Surge” as Powell said today is nothing more than speeding up the deployments that are planned and leaving those there, there without the relief they were expecting. From a National Security perspective, this “Surge” is an unmitigated disaster. What if we had a real crisis, instead of George Bush’s phony war? How long could the stripped fortifications in South Korea hold off the North? I don’t understand how the residents of WingNuttia can’t be afraid of China conquering Taiwan. If our military is broken, how in heck would we even raise a fuss if they decided to take that island? At this time, when folks on our side of the isle get into it with Wing Nuts, we should ask them what do we do if a real emergency (like China), comes our way, when our military has been ground under in Bush’s Quagmire!

It will take years to expand the force to the level they would need in Iraq and they’d have to re-introduce Conscription to get it. Then again, even another million troops can’t fix the mess Chimpy McClusterPhuck has made.

]]> By: Phoenix Woman http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422866 Phoenix Woman Mon, 18 Dec 2006 05:01:31 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422866 <p><em>EvilDrPuma @ 147</em></p> <blockquote><p><a href="#comment-422736"><em>jeffreyw @ 144</em></a></p> <blockquote><p>John, over at Americablog has <a href="http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/12/senator-reids-game.html">this take</a> on the Reid comment. Fits what he actually said, we’ll see.</p></blockquote> <p>That’s closer to my reading as well. Reid is quite explicit in linking his two- to three-month surge to a planned withdrawal. I do not read this as a statement of support for Bush’s “last push.”</p></blockquote> <p>That’s exactly it.</p> <p>Thing is, WE WILL NEED THE EXTRA TROOPS TO HELP US LEAVE WITH A MINIMUM OF HAVOC. If we don’t have them, the chances of us having to do a “fighting withdrawal” increase a great deal.</p> <p>Trust me, we really, really, REALLY don’t want to have to do a fighting withdrawal. We would rack up more casualties in a month than in the past three-plus years.</p> EvilDrPuma @ 147

jeffreyw @ 144

John, over at Americablog has this take on the Reid comment. Fits what he actually said, we’ll see.

That’s closer to my reading as well. Reid is quite explicit in linking his two- to three-month surge to a planned withdrawal. I do not read this as a statement of support for Bush’s “last push.”

That’s exactly it.

Thing is, WE WILL NEED THE EXTRA TROOPS TO HELP US LEAVE WITH A MINIMUM OF HAVOC. If we don’t have them, the chances of us having to do a “fighting withdrawal” increase a great deal.

Trust me, we really, really, REALLY don’t want to have to do a fighting withdrawal. We would rack up more casualties in a month than in the past three-plus years.

]]> By: Mike http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422862 Mike Mon, 18 Dec 2006 05:00:38 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422862 <p>“rw, for the first time in this tragic horror, we must accept the truth of our history and values and leave. No more rhetorical gymnastics, no more pseudo-realpolitik, we must leave the field and deal with the consequences of our imperial war-mongering. It is not fair to leave this mess to the innocent people who didn’t make it…but that certainly is no argument for staying.”</p> <p>This is exactly right. But it is not just our responsibility to leave almost immediately- it is also our responsibility to be holding intense talks with Iraq’s neighbors and getting the UN to mediate in terms of resolving Sunni-Shia-Kurd disputes. If our leaders were at all genuine and had the least fucking concern for the actual Iraqis who they think they liberated, they would be talking to Iraq’s neighbors, one of which holds enormous control over Iraqi affairs and is vilified, like Syria, by us. America needs to re-learn how to conduct diplomacy, not just to regain any kind of moral influence or authority- but to begin to correct the huge injustice we have committed against the Iraqi people. Our agreeing to set a fixed timetable, very soon, to withdraw, is the only way to heal the political process in Iraq. A military solution simply is impossible at this point, and anyone who says otherwise (like Reid) I consider to be imperialistic and not at all progressive or realistic. How is it that former Republicans on the Iraq Study Group recommend talking to Iran and Syria, but the supposedly “progressive” Reid instead says he’s “OK” with sending in more troops temporarily? This reflects a political cancer eating away at the heart of American democracy- the cancer, that is, of imperialism.</p> “rw, for the first time in this tragic horror, we must accept the truth of our history and values and leave. No more rhetorical gymnastics, no more pseudo-realpolitik, we must leave the field and deal with the consequences of our imperial war-mongering. It is not fair to leave this mess to the innocent people who didn’t make it…but that certainly is no argument for staying.”

This is exactly right. But it is not just our responsibility to leave almost immediately- it is also our responsibility to be holding intense talks with Iraq’s neighbors and getting the UN to mediate in terms of resolving Sunni-Shia-Kurd disputes. If our leaders were at all genuine and had the least fucking concern for the actual Iraqis who they think they liberated, they would be talking to Iraq’s neighbors, one of which holds enormous control over Iraqi affairs and is vilified, like Syria, by us. America needs to re-learn how to conduct diplomacy, not just to regain any kind of moral influence or authority- but to begin to correct the huge injustice we have committed against the Iraqi people. Our agreeing to set a fixed timetable, very soon, to withdraw, is the only way to heal the political process in Iraq. A military solution simply is impossible at this point, and anyone who says otherwise (like Reid) I consider to be imperialistic and not at all progressive or realistic. How is it that former Republicans on the Iraq Study Group recommend talking to Iran and Syria, but the supposedly “progressive” Reid instead says he’s “OK” with sending in more troops temporarily? This reflects a political cancer eating away at the heart of American democracy- the cancer, that is, of imperialism.

]]> By: NorskeFlamethrower http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422821 NorskeFlamethrower Mon, 18 Dec 2006 04:39:30 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422821 <p>1,365 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..</p> <p>rwcole:</p> <p>Brother Cole please, this is not a geopolitical “problem” to be worked analytically with variables that represent impacts on our “strategic interests”. </p> <p>“…It is right and intelligent to leave asap…” not ONLY because “it was wrong and stupid to go into Iraq” but because it is right and our presence can not make things better for ANYone’s interests and our continued presence will only assure a regional war.</p> <p>rw, for the first time in this tragic horror, we must accept the truth of our history and values and leave. No more rhetorical gymnastics, no more pseudo-realpolitik, we must leave the field and deal with the consequences of our imperial war-mongering. It is not fair to leave this mess to the innocent people who didn’t make it…but that certainly is no argument for staying.</p> <p>As for Reid’s statement…I too think it’s rope offered to the criminal to tie himself up or jest hang himself outright. Politically it takes the “stabbed in the back” meme out of McCain’s playbook…it’s brilliant and puts the whole weight of events from now on in the fascists court.</p> <p>KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T SHOOT YOUR OWN TROOPS!!!</p> 1,365 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

rwcole:

Brother Cole please, this is not a geopolitical “problem” to be worked analytically with variables that represent impacts on our “strategic interests”.

“…It is right and intelligent to leave asap…” not ONLY because “it was wrong and stupid to go into Iraq” but because it is right and our presence can not make things better for ANYone’s interests and our continued presence will only assure a regional war.

rw, for the first time in this tragic horror, we must accept the truth of our history and values and leave. No more rhetorical gymnastics, no more pseudo-realpolitik, we must leave the field and deal with the consequences of our imperial war-mongering. It is not fair to leave this mess to the innocent people who didn’t make it…but that certainly is no argument for staying.

As for Reid’s statement…I too think it’s rope offered to the criminal to tie himself up or jest hang himself outright. Politically it takes the “stabbed in the back” meme out of McCain’s playbook…it’s brilliant and puts the whole weight of events from now on in the fascists court.

KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T SHOOT YOUR OWN TROOPS!!!

]]> By: Siun http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422814 Siun Mon, 18 Dec 2006 04:33:58 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422814 <p>see Arianna’s right-on post on Reid and surges:</p> <p><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/a-surge-of-insanity_b_36585.html">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....36585.html</a></p> see Arianna’s right-on post on Reid and surges:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..36585.html

]]> By: rwcole http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422776 rwcole Mon, 18 Dec 2006 04:15:31 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/17/whos-driving-the-bus/#comment-422776 <p>It’s pretty clear that the “surge” strategy is pure bullshit- an attempt to get credit for doing something different- by doing close to nothing at all. </p> <p>It has been mentioned as a face saving first step to withdrawal- and that may be exactly what it is.</p> It’s pretty clear that the “surge” strategy is pure bullshit- an attempt to get credit for doing something different- by doing close to nothing at all.

It has been mentioned as a face saving first step to withdrawal- and that may be exactly what it is.

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