(Today we'll be discussing "Whistling Past Dixie" by Tom Schaller, who will be joining us in the comments– JH)
It seems as if I've been thinking about southern politics all of my life. The truth is that since the founding, everyone who has ever been involved in American politics has thought about it their whole lives. The struggle over politics and culture and regional pride in the south is America's story — it is us and we are it, no matter where we live.
The day after the 2004 election we all looked at the electoral map and knew that we were now dealing with a rock solid Republican south. The realignment that had been in the works since the 1960's was complete. (In fact it was almost exactly the same electoral map of 1860, with the parties reversed.) The south has pretty much voted as a bloc from the very beginning. And it is also a fact that the south is the most conservative region in the country, always has been. (Even FDR had to agree to keep civil rights off the menu — and once the crisis of the depression passed, the Dixiecrats immediately got restless. That coalition forged in the depression was always on a collision course with itself.)
In his book "Whistling Past Dixie" Tom Schaller gathers all the data to prove what those maps imply — the south is conservative in ways that the Democrats cannot crack without offending its other constituents or losing its progressive identity, which is exactly what's been happening since 1992 when Clinton made a last charge through Dixie and barely managed to get 43% of the national popular vote. In this article by Schaller in The Democratic Strategist, you can see that the statistics tell the story. By all measures of gender,age, religion, family/marital status, occupation and socioeconomic status, the demographics strongly favor conservative Republicanism in the south for the foreseeable future.
And more strikingly, it's quite clear that as much as attitudes about race are losing their salience in the rest of the country, it remains a strong predictor of voting Republican in the south. From Rick Perlstein's article called "The unspoken truth about the GOP. Southern Discomfort" in The New Republic:
The very heart of his argument is a taboo notion: that the South votes Republican because the Republicans have perfected their appeal to Southern racism, and that Democrats simply can't (and shouldn't) compete.
But, among scholars, this is hardly news. Schaller builds this conclusion on one of the most impressive papers in recent political science, "Old Times There Are Not Forgotten: Race and Partisan Realignment in the Contemporary South," by Nicholas Valentino and David Sears. Running regressions on a massive data set of ideological opinions, Sears and Valentino demonstrate with precision that, for example, a white Southern man who calls himself a "conservative," controlling for racial attitudes, is no less likely to chance a vote for a Democratic presidential candidate than a Northerner who calls himself a conservative. Likewise, a pro-life or hawkish Southern white man is no less likely–again controlling for racial attitudes–than a pro-life or hawkish Northerner to vote for the Democrat. But, on the other hand, when the relevant identifier is anti-black answers to survey questions (such as whether one agrees "If blacks would only try harder, they could be just as well off as whites," or choosing whether blacks are "lazy" or "hardworking"), an untoward result jumps out: white Southerners are twice as likely than white Northerners to refuse to vote for the Democratic presidential candidate. Schaller's writes: "Despite the best efforts of Republican spinmeisters … the partisan impact of racial attitudes in the South is stronger today than in the past."
I read the paper Perlstein mentions and this is not a misrepresentation. It shocked the hell out of me.
Now, before everyone gets upset and thinks that we are saying all southerners are racists: the data does not say that. But when it comes to conservative white southerners, I'm sorry to say that the evidence is clear. When all is said and done, the thing that separates them from the rest of the nation is racism. All the racial codes, the slick misdirection, even the appeals to homophobia and religion are in some sense directed at this one simple characteristic. And that characteristic is the thing that trumps all the other concerns about economic justice that Democrats persist in believing they can use to persuade white southern males to vote for them. Democrats simply cannot thread that needle.
Schaller does not "write off the south" as so many assume. Indeed, he explicitly endorses Howard Dean's 50 state strategy to build for the future and ensure that Democrats are prepared to step in where opportunities present themselves. What he is saying is it is impossible for Democrats to currently win nationally by trying to appeal to the southern conservative majority, which seems to me to be an obvious point. You can't be all things to all people.
Yet we have seen for decades now a concerted effort to persuade the Dems that they must appeal to NASCAR dads and "the heartland" and "evangelicals" and all the other cultural signifiers that relate closely to the conservative south. But that's not where the votes for us are and the more we try to get them, the less appealing we are to everyone else. As Schaller persuasively shows, there are plenty of votes to be had among blue collar workers in the upper mid-west and among the less traditionalist and religious types in the west and southwest. These appeals offer the possibility of emphasizing areas on which we agree instead of compromising on fundamental issues on which we never can. Schaller's "diamond demography" chapter shows exactly where the Dems stand the most to gain.
The fact is that it is the Republicans who have backed themselves into a corner. By allowing their southern wingnuts to dominate they have marginalized themselves and are losing their appeal to the country as a whole.
Here's Harold Myerson in the Washington Post:
You've seen the numbers and understand that America is growing steadily less white. You try to push your party, the Grand Old Party, ahead of this curve by taking a tolerant stance on immigration and making common cause with some black churches. Then you go and blow it all in a desperate attempt to turn out your base by demonizing immigrants and running racist ads against Harold Ford. On Election Day, black support for Democrats remains high; Hispanic support for Democrats surges. So what do you do next?
What else? Elect Trent Lott your deputy leader in the Senate. Sure locks in the support of any stray voters who went for Strom in '48.
In case you haven't noticed, a fundamental axiom of modern American politics has been altered in recent weeks. For four decades, it's been the Democrats who've had a Southern problem. Couldn't get any votes for their presidential candidates there; couldn't elect any senators, then any House members, then any dogcatchers. They still can't, but the Southern problem, it turns out, is really the Republicans'. They've become too Southern — too suffused with the knee-jerk militaristic, anti-scientific, dogmatically religious, and culturally, sexually and racially phobic attitudes of Dixie — to win friends and influence elections outside the South. Worse yet, they became more Southern still on Election Day last month, when the Democrats decimated the GOP in the North and West. Twenty-seven of the Democrats' 30 House pickups came outside the South.
The Democrats won control of five state legislatures, all outside the South, and took more than 300 state legislative seats away from Republicans, 93 percent of them outside the South…
The one strategist who fundamentally predicted the new geography of partisan American politics is Tom Schaller, a University of Maryland political scientist whose book "Whistling Past Dixie: How Democrats Can Win Without the South" appeared several months before November's elections. Schaller argued that the Democrats' growth would occur in the Northeast, the industrial Midwest, the Mountain West and the Southwest — areas where professionals, appalled by Republican Bible Beltery, were trending Democratic and where working-class whites voted their pocketbooks in a way that their Southern counterparts did not. Al Gore carried white voters outside the South, Schaller reminded us; even hapless John Kerry came close.
I would suggest that there are a couple of other reasons why Schaller's theory is sound, which he doesn't mention. While the party is listening to the likes of Amy Sullivan about how to compromise on abortion rights so as to appeal to conservative evangelicals, there is a resurgence of ideological progressivism throughout the country and we are not going to sit still for anybody running against us latte swilling liberals anymore. It would behoove the party to factor that into their calculations and see if they can find a way to properly respect their left flank while reaching out to swing voters.
I also suspect that the progressives in the south, with the help of the 50 state strategy, are going to begin to work harder than ever on that stubborn old region from the grassroots — and netroots — up. If they want us, we are here to help our southern brothers and sisters, many of them African American and our most loyal voters, to change that political dynamic once and for all. There's nothing that says just because the conservatives have ruled pretty much forever that they always will. Where there are candidates who want to run, even if it's a long shot, we will do what we can to help them just as we did this time — and we'll be trainspotters for the national party to see where the soft spots are.
But the national party must forge an identity that makes sense, that conveys what we stand for and what our values are. And we cannot do that if we continue to try to split the difference on these culture war issues and tailor our message to some mythical southern white conservative whom we think will vote for us if only we wear the right clothes and carry a shot gun. The data shows that unless we start running "call me, Harold" ads, that isn't going to work on those guys. (And, btw, the southern conservative women vote pretty much the same way — no gender gap in the south.) Until further notice, they are the southern majority. We'll do better in places where we can make a case based on economic populism and civil liberties that is untainted by a majority that are still too influenced by racism and fundamentalist religion to even meet us part of the way.
The proof is in the pudding. If Democrats can gain power we can begin to make a real case for progressivism in the south based upon progressive achievement.
(I do disagree with Schaller's belief that the Democrats could turn South Carolina into the "Taxachusetts" of the south — meaning that we could use it as a symbol of being out of touch with the mainstream. I don't think it would work. That kind of thing works for the Republicans because they are exploiting an existing grievance among a group of right wingers who are perpetually aggrieved. Those guys have been railing against the yankees since before the country was even a country. It's peculiar to their own sense of regional pride.)
Now keep in mind that for every assertion I've made here, there are a hundred qualifiers and data points that Schaller's book addresses. He believes that the south will eventually become more progressive from the outside rim inwards, hence the win in Virgina. He sees Florida as a different kind of southern state and subject to a different analysis. There are many other fascinating details that only reading the book will fully satisfy.
I should also take the time to point out that it is an entertaining read for such a dry subject. Schaller spares no important data — it's a work of scholarship. But it's written in the lively style that those of us who've been reading his posts at Daily Kos, the Gadflyer and TAPPED for the last few years have come to enjoy. It is a very breezy read for a work of social science.
So, on behalf of the Firedoglake crew, I am thilled to welcome Dr. Tom Schaller to today's book salon.
Fire when ready.
Related posts:
- Is Obama Whistling Past the Graveyard on Afghanistan?
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Benjamin Page, Class War? What Americans Really Think About Economic Inequality
- FDL Book Salon – The Eliminationists: How Hate Talk Radicalized The American Right
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Ryan Grim: This Is Your Country On Drugs
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Matthew Kerbel, Netroots: Online Progressives and the Transformation of American Politics





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Tom! Ned! Zed!
I’m here folks, and thanks to Digby for all the support and her thoughtful comments. Please fire away.
I remember a line from a lady who provided a coda to Ken Burn’s Civil War.
My recall is flawed, but it went something like: “We’re still fighting the civil war, and we could still lose it.”
hey Tom — good to see you!
So, I’ll go ahead and ask the obvious question. What do you tell people who say that you are writing off the south?
Hi, everyone…
And many thanks to Digby and Mr. Schaller to come here today to talk about our problems in the South.
I’ll post my question in just a moment…
: )
While waiting for folks to pipe in with questions or comments for either me or Digby, indulge me for a moment as I say a few things about Digby.
First, her writing is to me very powerful. Why? Because, although I know she’s shared with me privately how she picks over it and anguishes before ever hitting the “send” button, it never reads like something that has been written or proofed with an eye toward hedging or compromise. It is pure, and purely argued; coherent and sentient. There is courage in her voice.
To have her host this salon, and to have her say the things she does about my book and to know that she is “thrilled” to be presenting the book to FDL readers is humbling.
Tom… what percentage of Southern voters would you say support the GOP because of its “Southern (i.e. racist) strategy”?
(oh, and quick note to digby…. I love you, but you have a guest. Introduce the guest, and get off the stage next time…i kept reading and reading and reading YOUR prose…rather than getting to YOUR guest.)
Welcome Tom Schaller and Digby! what a treat to have you both here!
Thanks so much for this. Wouldn’t it be interesting if Democrats tried to appeal to swing voters in some other way than castigating their own left flank?
I’m also curious about how racial demographics may affect future voting patterns. It was my impression certainly in Tennessee, but also in other parts of the south, that many African Americans are moving there and the numbers might change sincr they are reliable Democrats.
I know we have a bunch of progressive southerners here at FDL and I hope they pipe up and share their experiences.
I was just waiting for several hours (argh plus) for a flight to Arkansas from Ohare and folks were watching CNN – the disgust with Bush expressed by the Arkansians around me was astonishing – he has clearly violated their sense of what is right.
Heh. Sorry Paul. I’ll try to have better manners in the future. I’m new to this “hosting” thing.
Hi Tom. I was wondering if you have any thoughts on whether Dems will gain/ lose/ hold seats in Louisiana and MS post Katrina? I’ve heard arguments in support and against all 3 possibilities.
awww Paul … getting some juicy Digby thinking in addition to a chance to talk with Tom works for me!
I’m also curious about how racial demographics may affect future voting patterns. It was my impression certainly in Tennessee, but also in other parts of the south, that many African Americans are moving there and the numbers might change sincr they are reliable Democrats.
good point Jane.
But its not just more blacks …. a lot of urban areas (think Atlanta) are finding themselves with more white “Northern” transplants who don’t have the same racial attitudes that “native” white Southerners do.
Tom, is white racist resistance increasing in those states that should, demographically, be getting more “democratic”?
OK, here’s my question:
With a growing Latino population in the South, and the general Latino movement toward Democrats, is there a chance that we can start making inroads in places like Texas, which has almost as many Latinos as California?
Let me tackle a couple of these questions.
First, I can’t possibly say what percentage/number of white southerners vote based on race. And, of course, racial antipathies are hardly contained to the South. What I do know is that conservativism in the South is especially (but not exclusively) tainted by race. This is most apparent when one considers that working-class, blue-collar whites and blacks who live side-by-side vote so differently. I do not, contra Tom Frank, think that white southerners (or white non-southerners) vote “against their interests.” I just think they WEIGHT their social-cultural values more. That’s why southern blacks–many of whom are just as conservative on issues like abortion or gay rights–still vote Democratic…that is, because they weight their civil rights and economic preferences more than their social-cultural ones. This is the major reason you have 8/9 blacks voting democratic in parts of the south where 7/8 of their white neighbors (literally, neighbors) are voting Republican.
As for the percentage of Republicans, the mention of TN is very sharp…in fact, there are only two states where the African American pop share is higher today than it was in 1950–and TN is one. LA is the other…or maybe, post-Katrina, WAS the other. It may be that 10 of the former 11 confed states now have smaller A-A pop shares than a half-century ago.
This is significant because blacks are the key starting point for any statewide Democratic majority. And, the sad irony is that by the time they fought and won their equal voting rights, their population shares had shrunk and white southerners started voting republican with a vengeance.
I’m disgusted w/ myself for not having read this book yet! I’m on my way out to get it tomorrow…
Thanks for being here and the excellent information Dr. Schaller.
What would your best advise be for us Southern Progressives as far as strategies?
It isn’t easy to look at one section of America and draw conclusons about voting patterns. With such a mix of ethnic profiles how does the PR machine get directed? Is it money politics? Are they still fighting the civil war? Aren’t folks just looking to sustain their individuality? I dunno — it all seems so paternal.
Newt seems to think fear is the underlying source of unity. Fear of bloggers is the new black in phobias it seems now. Hooray! (We are likewise humbled by the power we are perceived to wield.)
Thanks to FDL for the continuous parade of top talent guests and discussion. Y’all rock! ILY Digby! And we’re still mad as hell…
(PS – is spell check down?)
p.lukasiak @ 14
OK, let me tackle the growing non-southern southern population, and the Latino question, which is a sub-part of that.
Quickly, aside from TX and FL, the southern states are toward the bottom of the latino statewide pop shares. The RATE of increase in their latino populations is often huge–but a 200% increase over the last decade from 1% to 3% seems like a lot in relative terms (it is), but in statewide threshold and multi-racial Democratic voting coalition terms it is not. UT, RI and CT all have higher Latino pops than every southern state except TX and FL.
as for the in-migration of non-southern americans (white, black or whatever) to the south, yes, indeedy, this is a key factor in the growing assimilation of the South (and other regions) to the broader american culture. as i often say in book talks, at some point my book will become obsolete, because the south is becoming less distinct every day. it’s far less distinctive now than 30 years ago and will be less distinct 30 years hence. part, but not all of this change, is being driven by growth of non-native southerners in places like the I-4 corridor in FL, the research triangle in NC, the tech belt of Austin, cities like Atlanta and Charlotte, and of course, Northern Virginia. it is ironic that some of the most competitive places for D’s in the south are the places with the highest number of non-native southerners. ironic, but not surprising.
in fact, there are only two states where the African American pop share is higher today than it was in 1950
Tom, is 1950 really the appropriate stating point? Nixon’s “southern strategy” wasn’t even started until the early 1970s, and I would think that if you are looking for the impact of the percentage of black voters in a given state on election results, you’d want to start around 1980…)
Tom Schaller 16 — interesting. I am no Harold Ford fan but I had hoped that the DSCC’s decision to run him meant the demographics in that state were shifting. Even if he lost it showed a commitment to African American voters that was hopeful; it certainly would seem true that if African Americans don’t show up to the polls, no Democrat in TN stands a chance.
Wish I could stay and chat but I have to leave soon to slice and dice a wingnuts on a radio panel show (based out of WLS-Chicago but syndicated; it starts at 6 CST so after this head on over…http://www.beyondthebeltway.com/).
The shocking thing I learned after writing about Tom’s important work was how many of our fellow Americans say that claiming that blacks are lazier than whites is not racist at all. I got all kinds of crazy emails–like the guy who wrote me and said northerners were just jealous of the South because it was such an economic powerhouse!
I sent that last one on to Tom. He said that was nothing compared to some of the stuff he’d received.
So: tell some good stories, Tom, about the reception to the book from people who don’t want to listen to reason?
Great synopsis, Digby, and welcome, Tom.
Tom,
Which states have the richest veins of potential Democratic votes in your opinion — and what do you think the Democrats have to do to get them?
On the issue of my “advice to southern progressives” the short answer is “keep plugging along.” and i don’t just say that to be kind, and here’s why: i’ve come to realize i was wrong about something (or incomplete in my thinking) in the book. my error was one i realized after spending a lot of time talking with a smart progressive NC dem named ed cone, who has a great weblog of his own. what i realized is that my NATIONAL strategy means not dumping money into places we can’t win that become money pits and make us less competitive where we can win.
so, i wouldn’t want the DCCC or DSCC sendign money into almost any races this past cycle, except the few where we had a reason expectation becuase “moral” victories are still losses.
however, i now realize that any ORGANIC resources–i.e., a check that would be written to Heath Shuler of NC but only him; a volunteer who wants to turn out for her local county execs race but ain’t going to run to NH to help Carol Shea-Porter, etc.–that raising and investing these resources does NO harm to national efforts. so go for it, and pull others in. that will help win back the south over the longer term, too.
i have a deep sense of respect for southern progressives b/c their jobs are the hardest in the country.
Wither Colorado?
hey, rick and pach. glad you could join digby and jane and all the great FDL posters and readers.
i’d actually rather not talk about the crazy emails i get. the one thing i’ll say is that i understand why people are particularly sensitive about southern-bashing, and i try to studiously avoid that. what i do is, in a wittgensteinian sense, “show but not say.” and the empirics may make some people uncomfortable, but they are what they are.
and i’ve learned to converse with many email haters by letting them know i fully recognize that there’s plenty of racism in the non-south. PLENTY. and it should be fought there just as strenously as the deepest parts of the deep south. and for the same reasons.
On the issue of my “advice to southern progressives” the short answer is “keep plugging along.”
Tom, it seems to me that one of your messages is that the south is too conservative/”anti-progress” for Democrats to win. Would southern progressives be better off calling themselves “southern populists”?
Rick Perlstein 22 — thanks for stopping by. I’ll bring you over for Thanksgiving dinner in Robertson County some day, you can hear some really outrageous stuff followed by ’some of my best friends are…’
Gunfire over sweet potatoes and turkey dressing, it should have novelty appeal for you anyway.
Yeah, well, the other thing I learned recently is that there should be nothing wrong with shooting someone on your front lawn if you feel threatened by him, and that cops serving bad warrants deserve the death penalty, too.
But that’s OT.
let me say something about harold ford, since jane mentioned him.
i was repulsed by his campaign, and in many ways i think it ratifies the point i’ve tried to make (but digby makes much better for me, in her opening essay) about the risks of corrupting oneself in the interest of winning elections. ford ran the ideal DLC campaign–he spoke about the power of his jesus; did an ad in church pews; wore a hunting cap on election day; thundered against the NJ gay ruling and piled on John Kerry. and maybe that tightened things in TN. but at what cost?
the most inexcusable moment was when chris matthews asked him if the “hey harold” ad was racist. he said “no.” twice. so here was a black man, knowing full well if he said the truth, that calling it racist might, um, risk losing the votes of some folks who don’t want to take lectures about racism from him (or anyone else), choosing not to speak truth. he was willing to sell out blacks and the truth to gain white votes. disgusting.
Having lived in the south and the midwest, I find the divide more between urban and rural than north and south. I’ve met just as many bigots in rural midwest as I have in the south.
Mr. Schaller said:
You did, however, mention local support of candidates.
I thought the lesson learned this past cycle was that we should contest every post in every state every cycle. Because opportunities can come without warning and to have a candidate with local backing who can then make that race national is good.
Am I misreading this?
pelican @ 32
Well, there’s truth to that, too. Look, people who have to live in multi-ethnic situations are forced to either deal with their inherent (and entirely human) need for similarity and familiarty, and thus to reflex to categorize based on difference. and though there are poorly-educated folks in the cities and well-educated rural americans, education is a major factor here.
we always talk about education as a solution for occupational opportunity. but better-educated people, on average, save and invest smarter; they take better care of their health and bodies; and they are more tolerant.
i never wonder why the GOP wants to do as little as possible to TRULY expand educational opportunities: a smarter America is a less republican america, because all their nasty tricks and divide-and-conquer politics are less likely to work. and fear will always have less power to suppress with those who have read generally, and read anti-utopian books in particular.
i just saw “V for Vendetta” this weekend for the first time….that’s my point.
Thanks Tom– you just answered my question at 27– there certainly is plenty of racism in the NE and West coast where I have lived.
I’ve found that the South traditionally had a closer sense of community whereas in the North and even on the West coast, not so much of the busybody attitude at all.
I do worry about the widespread racism and hatred toward brown and Muslim folk that is pervasive throughout America and has somehow united many in this country against the “boogeyman”. I think that the Republicans (and some Dems) figure that they can tap into this unfortunate characteristic of our countrymen and capitalize on it and use it to their advantage.
I was trying to say “whither Colorado.” Would you discuss any difference between Colorado Springs evangelicals and deep south evangelicals?
Tom,
How salient do you think the big culture war issues like abortion and gay rights are in the west and midwest?
Tom Schaller 31 — I always thought Ford was a poor choice because outside of Memphis the the Fords are not highly regarded (they get a bye on the legal problems in Memphis, but not outside). I understood why he did that on Matthews but it was damn hard to watch. And the hunting cap — don’t even bother.
GRANDMA J WRITES:
You did, however, mention local support of candidates. I thought the lesson learned this past cycle was that we should contest every post in every state every cycle. Because opportunities can come without warning and to have a candidate with local backing who can then make that race national is good. Am I misreading this?
yes, a bit, but probably because i am being too unclear. national resources should NOT be spent everywhere…they should be spent wisely and strategically, based on best available projections. will there be some missed opportunities? yes. will there be tons of money dumped into tammy duckworth races (and harold fords, too)? yup. but for the most part we can target now better than ever before.
but when it comes to LOCALIZED resources that would NOT OTHERWISE be spent/given to national efforts, find and raise and use and spend them without limit locally. it doesn’t hurt national efforts and won’t hurt locally. (it’s what social choice/game theorists call a “pareto improvement”…nobody does worse but some may do better. the natl party is not jeopardized, and some local efforts may yield results.
Tom, Jane and Digby — so sorry to be running late today. We had a family engagement that ran longer than I expected.
So great to see Tom and Digby in the same space!
Two questions:
(1) Any lessons to be learned from past progressive movements in the South?
(2) How do we use the increased Southernization of the GOP against it without needlessly making things even harder for Southern progressives?
Also, Grandma J, there is absolutely no excuse not to run SOME Democrat for every office, even in the most Republican areas, if only because the Republican might slip on a banana peel, etc.
Digby @ 37
well, colorado is the biggest story in democratic politics over the past two cycles. we went from no guv, no chamber majorities in the state leg, a minority of US House seats, and neither senator; now we have flipped them all, plus a majority of House and 1 of 2 senators. amazing.
colorado is changing rapidly. and yes, the evangelicals there are powerful. but guess what? that’s a good thing? as ryan sager, in his book “elephant in the room” points out, and as John C. Green at Akron U’s bliss institute, and one of the top religion-n-politics scholars in the country explained to me two years ago, the rise of evangelicals in the west is taking over the state republican parties and pulling them WAY TOO FAR to the right for libertarian sensibilities–and, by extension, making democratic messages and messengers more and more attractive. this is a big part (but only part; demographic changes are also key) to the rising democratic fortunes out west.
we had none of 8 govs in jan 01; in jan 07 we’ll have 5 of 8. amaaaaaaaaazing.
I took a little guff on a private email list for saying, pre-election, with the Senate in the balance, that I hope Ford loses. I said it because of all the reasons discussed, and also because a Ford win would set the party back, leaving significant portions of it to continue to labor under the illusion Tom so aptly exposes in his book.
Tom — on the book, which I thought was a wonderful, thought-provoking kick in the pants for a lot of the political “braintrust” types:
The Democratic party apparatus in so much of the South has been allowed to atrophy to the point of ineffective and pathetic shells of groups. That revitalization is going to take quite a while, even with committed liberals stepping into that breach. In the meantime, some tough decisions do have to be made in terms of committing resources NOW, as well as for the long-term. You make a good case on how to do that, Tom — but I know that folks like Mudcat Saunders and some of the other Southern Dem strategists had a few words about that at YKos with you.
Have you been able to change any of their minds? Or have they been able to change yours at all since then? Has your opinion changed in any way in the wake of the 2006 election cycle and looking ahead to 2008?
Paul Rosenberg @ 41
on (1), yes, and it is, sadly, this: economic populism was (and might be again) very popular in the south when the beneficiaries are (or are perceived to be) whites. the way to move the economic populism theme down there is to frame policies that way, but make them general entitlements that benefit blacks. so much of the antipathy toward welfare is driven by the fact that media depictions always exaggerate the share of blacks depending on such programs. (but see research of Martin Gilens and others.)
on (2), this is tougher. on the first part, we use the increased southernization to objectify the GOP to non-southerners and move them toward us. but on the second count, i think there is still a way to make the case WITHIN the SOUTH that the local/state GOP has isolated and marginalized itself. five of the 11 former confederate states, according to surveyUSA, have more pro-choice than pro-life self-describees. so the GOP is even out of touch WITHIN the south on some issues. press your case on their weak spots, and keep hammering them.
Tom….
Do you think its worth the effort for Democrats to attempt to appeal to “Christian Conservatives” by emphasizing was Jesus said about stuff like helping the poor and people different from yourself…. or is trying to appeal to the “Christian” in a “Christian Conservative” a waste of time?
I wonder if you have any thoughts as to why African American pastors and a leading A.A. legislator in VA actively supported George Allen even after macaca and the rest of his filthy laundry was exposed.
Was it just because of the money Allen managed to allocate to AA colleges/faith based initiatives or what?
I mean, isn’t racism toward anyone anathema to anyone who has suffered from it???
Christy Hardin Smith @ 45
CHRisty: Hey, glad you’re with us. Well, some Mudcat-types are just not gonna budge. but i talked at length with jim carville this week at a conference in NoVirginia, and he is (as may surprise some here, because it surprised me) like a completely different person off-stage when the cameras are not on. he said to me, “who is pushing back against your arguments? I can’t imagine anyone would.” i almost fell over. maybe he was just killing me with southern kindness, but i think he understands how uphill the battle is.
as for the mudcats, here’s what i say to them when they lecture me about how “immoral” my arguments are: You are the southern democrats, and you know the “bubbas” (as they call them), and so YOU are the ones that need to do the convincing. you tell me they’re not too hostile to the democratic party or too racist to vote for the party that defended the civil rights movement? prove it. and if it takes some moral suasion, i’ll gladly shut the hell up if you can make the moral case to them in their own ways/terms to make them see that the GOP is screwing them over by playing to their base motives. i still think one needs to solve the underlying problem of those motives, and that all the NASCAR sponsorships and affected accents we get from harold ford during an election year don’t fool anyone.
isn’t it immoral for the mudcats to not turn to their fellow southerners and say, “hey, some of your ideas and stereotypes are wrong…knock it the hell off!”
FBI: Recruiters Caught in Drug Probe
TUCSON, Ariz. — A dozen Army and Marine recruiters who visited high schools were among the personnel caught in a major FBI cocaine investigation, and some were allowed to keep working while under suspicion, a newspaper reported Sunday.
None of the recruiters was accused of providing drugs to students.
The recruiters, who worked in the Tucson area, were targets of a federal sting called Operation Lively Green, which ran from 2001 to 2004 and was revealed last year. So far, 69 members of the military, prison guards, law enforcement employees and other public employees have been convicted of accepting bribes to help smuggle cocaine.
The Arizona Daily Star reviewed the investigation and court documents and found that the FBI allowed many recruiters to stay on the job even though they were targeted by the investigation. Some were still recruiting three years after they were photographed running drugs in uniform, the newspaper said.
Most of the recruiters pleaded guilty and will be sentenced in March. Some honorably retired from the military.
The sting began after the FBI received tips that a former Army National Guardsman was taking bribes to fix military aptitude tests for recruits, FBI Special Agent Adam Radtke said.
Military officials say they kept the recruiters on the job because the FBI told them to leave the suspects alone to avoid jeopardizing the sting. The military said it also didn’t know some recruiters were under investigation, the newspaper reported.
Military officials say the criminal acts by recruiters were rare out of the thousands of recruiters working across the country. “This was an isolated incident,” said Marine Corps recruiting spokeswoman Janice Hagar.
A governing board member of the Tucson Unified School District, Judy Burns, criticized the FBI for allowing the recruiters to stay on the job so long.
“It’s ludicrous to me that the FBI would leave these people in place and allow them onto our high school campuses,” Burns said.
Special Agent Deb McCarley said the FBI generally performs risk assessments before deciding to keep suspects who work in public positions on the job during undercover investigations.
___
December 17, 2006 – 3:46 p.m. Cop
As a Yankee (a displaced Californian) living in the south, I have observed a couple of phenomena that may be relevant. First, there are a lot of non-southerners moving here, and that pattern will not change. It will only increase, and it has already had an effect on local politics: even Republican politicians have moved toward the center, because they are having to appeal to voters from, say, Maine and New York whose priorities cannot be relied upon to fit with the historical voting patterns in their new homes. Second—and I do wonder if I’m correctly observing this: I think some southerners may be voting more Republican partly as a reaction to more moderate and progressive Yankees moving into their territory. I have heard anecdotes to that effect from my southern friends. Tom, do you have any comment on that?
And a P.S. I thought Digby’s intro was great—it was very helpful to me.
One aspect that needs to be clarified is the difference between southern attitudes in the general population and attitudes among that subgroup of the population that votes. Fighting over the opinions of the general population is a zero-sum game, but if the Dems are working on winning elections, expanding the subgroup of voters to include more progressives is a non-zero sum game (up to the size of the total population).
This is where the 50 state strategy matters. No one wants to stand up, all alone, by themselves. But if the local folks get the sense that they are not being abandoned, they are not being forgotten, and even that they are being supported and encouraged in their efforts by folks at the national level, it’s a lot easier to increase the enthusiasm and strength of the Democratic party. That support can come from official democratic groups like the DNC, DCCC, DSCC, or from less official groups like the various 527s.
Increasing the progressive base in the south does not necessarily mean converting rabid conservatives. Efforts to convince the progressives who feel “I don’t matter, ’cause the dems always lose here” that they are wrong may be much more productive.
p.lukasiak @ 47
well, think the GOP share of the evangelical vote when from like 77% to 74%, or somethng like that, this year. (don’t hold me to these numbers.) i guess that’s good that it is moving in our direction, but for such a powerful Democratic year to yield such a marginal increase (one, conceivably, within the polling margin of error) gives me, to be honest, very little hope.
Tom at 50 — I absolutely agree. The Kerry photo-op in Ohio with the hunting jacket was so contrived — even if Kerry had gone hunting before, it just did not work for who he was. Authentic works in the South — but it has to be authentic to the individual. Those of us who live below the Mason-Dixon line are used to quirky and individual, and we can deal with that. But the phony Harold Ford in a hunting cap? So very wrong.
I wonder what the role of universities in cultural change. In North Carolina, there is a lot of economic activity, research, small businesses, arts, etc. The triangle is essential to the state.
What institutions are there to use as a base for progressive political, economic, and social development? Clearly, the influence of Bob Jones University is not going to help South Carolina Dems ever. But are there possibilities of growing a creative class, a progressive core around Emory or Vanderbilt or other universities?
What other institutions need to be in place in the long run? Are some there already?
raven and others:
No off topic comments in Book Salon, please, as is our community custom.
Thanks!
Blue Dido @ 52
BLUE DIDO: Boy, i’ll have to plead ignorance on the latter part–i just don’t know if there are studies showing that southern natives are voting more republican as a response or backlash to the infusion of non-native southerners in their region. that notion makes some sense intuitively, but often intuitions are just plain wrong. absent having read something, i’ll have to punt.
on the former part, i have already noted that some of the areas where Ds are increasing competitive are a result of in-migration to the region of non-native southerners. their arrival may be sufficient, if native southerners just vote the same way. but you’re right, there is potentially a cancellation effect.
a side note on NoVirginia and its effect on virginia’s competitiveness: this is the region that propelled warner, kaine and now webb to statewide victories. after FL, which is the most competitive state for Ds in presidential elections precisely because it has the most non-native southerners, i’d say VA is our next best opportunity. had warner stayed in (or if he runs for VP) maybe we have a shot at it in 2008. but i’m thinking more 2012 or 2016.
Increasing the progressive base in the south does not necessarily mean converting rabid conservatives. Efforts to convince the progressives who feel “I don’t matter, ’cause the dems always lose here” that they are wrong may be much more productive.
on the margins, perhaps. But it really doesn’t help the progressive movement to spend money increasing the Democratic vote in a southern congressional district from 34% to 42%.
Alison @ 56
Universities of course play a big part because they have a lot of young people, tend to have higher rates of college-educated folks, and bring non-native southerners to the south. that’s why austin, athens, and chapel hill are key progressive-liberal oases.
the problem here is that areas like the research trinagle park in central NC, which is backboned by having Duke/UNC/NCState/NCCentral all in the area (among other colleges), is that major universities don’t just pop up overnight. i teach at a school that’s only my age: 40. it’s now the second biggest research university in maryland, behind college park. but that kind of growth is rare. there won’t be another research triangle in NC any time soon.
Jane at 38 — I wondered about Ford as the choice as well, given some of the outright hostility I have heard about his family from folks who live outside Memphis. And I wondered if that just got glossed over somehow in the discussions with the Beltway crowd who got talked into going whole hog on the Ford bandwagon…and how something that obvious could just be overlooked.
SHAMELESS PLUG: I’ll be on The Colbert Report on Mon., Jan 22.
Colbert is from SC, incidentally, in case you didn’t already know.
Could be fun…
Tom at 61 — awesome! Do tell him that I worship at his snarky feet, even if he is to the right of Bill O. *G*
SHAMELESS PLUG: I’ll be on The Colbert Report on Mon., Jan 22.
never be ashamed of plugging an appearance on Colbert! :)
And given the topic, you know that Colbert is gonna be at the top of his form.
My advice… watch Penn Jillette’s guest appearance, and do the opposite…
Thanks, Tom. I am thinking of one specific anecdote told to me by a progressive native of North Carolina. He said he had asked a friend living in a small town why people were still voting for Jesse Helms, even when he knew they didn’t like Helms. His friend said, “yes, we don’t like Helms, but we don’t like you eggheads in the Triangle [=Research Triangle area of central NC, a relatively moderate-to-progressive region] even more, and we know you hate Helms. So we vote for him just to make you snobs mad.” I have much independent confirmation that the more rural parts of this state have very mixed feelings about the population of the Triangle.
I don’t know if this is a general truth, or what, but it fits in with some other phenomena I have observed around here. And at the same time that people here were electing Helms, they were also electing moderate Democrats for governor. (I can’t even bear to speak of our two useless current senators, but at least they’re not as bad as Jesse.) But perhaps this state is just a mixed bag. Still, there are a lot of progressives here, for whom I’m very grateful, and I hope we’ll be the next state after Virginia to lean more Democratic.
Thanks for the encouragement… it is very disheartening here sometimes (getting quite often!)
I absolutely do not like to see pandering to the extremist faction a la the Ford campaign as you mentioned above- I can hold my nose & vote for “marginal” Democratic candidates only up to a point!
I’m happily surprised by what you say about Carville, Tom. That’s good news since he is the “star strategist” of the Democratic party. Maybe he feels chagrined by the response he got for his stupid trial balloon about making Ford the head of the DNC.
But I think one thing we all have to keep in mind is that guys like Mudcat have a vested interest in keeping their southern strategy alive. That’s how he makes his living.
I read his book and some of it is very good. All of you who work in politics in the south should read it. He takes it right to the Republicans in attitude and I think it’s effective. It really helped Webb to be an in your face true blue marine to that phony tobacco spitting Californian (I’m one so I can say it like that.) I’m sure he’s the one who had Webb call him George “Felix” Allen.
But his policy prescription is just madness for the Democrats and I guarantee if the party goes along with their ideas we will see another Ralph nader debacle within the next ten years and a move back to the GOP as soon as they figure out their latest code.
For instance, Mudcat really wants to “put the term illegal alien in the bait can” and favors as harsh an immigration stance as the most conservative Republican. They favor it because white southern males are attracted to it.
The Democratic party, however, if it plays its cards right, is going to be the home of the second biggest ethnic population in the nation before long — latinos. Going after the white southern male by rudely dissing Mexicans is cutting off our noses to spite our faces.
That’s the kind of stuff we need to resist and we will if we reject that southern strategy.
p.lukasiak @ 59
Money remains a zero-sum element. If you spend it here, you can’t spend it there. But supporting the party is critical, IMHO, to not just congressional races but also the state legislative contests, county board elections, and any manner of local races. As Dems make inroads in the down-ticket races, the chances for success up the ticket in future elections increases.
My basic point was to look at the difference between fighting over the voters in the last election (i.e. trying to win over conservatives) versus adding new progressive voters to the game. Put in the form of a question, I’m asking this: Once we’ve decided to spend the money, which of these two approaches should we engage?
For my money, it’s the second approach that will win.
(quick note to paul…. I love you, but you are in a discussion. Ask your question and get off the stage next time…i kept reading and reading and reading YOUR questions/comments…rather than getting to the many other contributors and new faces)
The converse of Democrats avoiding compromise on “southern values” is to force the Republicans to publicly embrace them. So following up a little on Rosenberg’s second question, are there some particular issues which could be used to “wedge” the Republicans into openly supporting Southern positions that are plainly antithetical to most others in the nation? Or put another way, are there particular issues that could be used to force them out in the open on this?
A strategy to make the Republicans a regional party of the South might leave them with about 20 Senate seats and around 100-150 House seats. But such a strategy would not allow Dems to write off the South. We would have to stay competitive in the South so that they can’t triangulate away from it.
BLUE DIDO: Well, if you liked that quote about how southerners were still voting for helms, despite disliking him, as a way of spiting the folks in the research triangle, you’ll like the part in Whistling Past Dixie where i discuss the acronym native NCers have for Cary, NC, the tony bedroom suburb outside raleigh where a lot of research triangle types live: Contamination Area–Relocated Yankees.
C.A.R.Y.
pretty funny, actually.
First of all, it’s FANTASTIC to have Digby here. Your writing, Digby, is a great beacon to us, a lighthouse of rationality and reason that illuminates the whole landscape. You’re worth at least 4 or 5 of our self-styled punditocracy … as are your other commentators. So, there.
angie @
35
Tom, can you talk about the whole
idea of a regional identity and how it affects us? What other regions of the country have a strong regional identity that affects how they vote?
I’m a Yankee, but it was only after I came into contact with Southerners (including a friend during college who explained that his kin were genuinely worried from his changing accent that he was “turnin’ into a Yankee”) that I realized I had a regional identity (New Yorker/New Englander), and it’s only been in the last few years that I’ve realized I’m proud of that identity … because I contrast it to the Southern identity.
That’s not to say we don’t have our share of racists and wingnuts all over, but I’m glad that Mass. leads the nation in gay marriage, for instance. And although it’s not necessarily fair to progressives in the South fighting their battles, I feel in some way that “they” (conservative white Southerners who have been wrong on just about every social issue for two centuries) started this, and now that the NE has realigned substantially along Democratic lines, and the Southwest and Colorado, etc., can flip more easliy than the Old South, I want us to stop obsessing about them (not Southerners … just the white Southern conservative with latent racial attitudes).
Does this kind of attitude generalize? Are there other folks out there who will work against Southern conservatives because they offend a different region’s attitudes?
Kim Phillips, in American Theocracy pointed out that the South in effect re-fought and won the Civil War in the 90’s, by controlling the national political discorse. I like the idea of exporting a NE or West Coast or Rocky Mountain brand of Democratic principles to the South instead of pandering to the CW that the Dems have to run someone who will run strongly in the South.
I’ll be watching Colbert.
Tom Schaller @ 62
I’ll make sure to watch it…
And btw, thanks for answering my question upthread! : )
Re Tom Schaller @ 46
Your mention of Gilens made me think of this. He impressed me mightily when I first read him. However, one part of his analysis seems flawed in retrospect: claiming that racism generally has receeded–with many stereotypes fading in frequency, for example–leaving only a narrow residue.
However, the work of folks like Eduardo Bonilla-Silva on colorblind racism strongly suggests that the new racism is not well measured by the old measures. Your work seems to speak to this as well. Do you have any thoughts on more carefully studying how racist ideology is framed in order to counter it? Or does this seem like a waste of time to work on frontally?
Tom Schaller @ 49
Kinda reminds me of my friends who are still Republicans and claim they are “Eisenhower Republicans.” I think it’s great if they want to try to reclaim their party, but only if they’re actually doing something about it. Mostly it just seems to be an excuse to say “I’m not like those crazy types” while continuing to vote for people who pander to the crazy types.
I have met a wonderful young economist named Nathan Nunn. Nathan has written about the persistent effects of the slave trade on the countries from whom slaves were taken. Slavery, Institutional Development, and Long-run Growth in Africa, 1400-2000
What I recall is that he also found evidence that the economic life and institutions of the locales which imported slaves also have persistent effects. Their economies are depressed because of their dependence on free labor, labor without protections, labor without choices.
It seems to me that if the Dems ever want to gain a foothold in such an environment, large scale economic development is absolutely necessary. The south was always a place to manufacture goods cheaply and without employment standards. Few manufacturers choose to remain for those reasons now, when they can go to Mexico or China.
The South might be experiencing an economic dead end. They cannot survive when the real third world is not so far as it once was, and when it is so efffective at competing for the business of bottom feeding manufacturers.
Tom, I wondered if there is any evidence suggesting that attitudes about gender are among the reasons that the South has become so solidly Republican. Certainly attitudes about gender are what give the abortion and gay rights issues so much salience there. And overall the South is definitely more conversative when it comes to gender roles. The fact that there’s no gender gap in the South is interesting and surprising.
Tom Schaller @ 71
Hi Tom,
that acronym was one of the first things I learned when I moved here. Another acronym: Community of Angry Relocated Yankees. That’s pretty funny, too. And, indeed, when I started going to our brand-new Trader Joe’s, every single person in the store seemed to be from out of state–and most of them had recently moved here from California. (They didn’t seem all that angry about it.)
I haven’t had a chance to read your book, but I’m really looking forward to it (& also to seeing you on Colbert).
Must log off now and attend to despotic house-dog in need of attention. Thanks so much, Tom, for coming.
taking some of the themes from recent comments and questions about southerners’ attitudes and progressives and targeting, let me stop a moment and share with everyone a dirty little secret about this book….
…ready?
it’s really a big book about game theory. i don’t use terms like “probabilistic” or “dominant strategy” and such. and i am a progressive who believes in the argument. but if i were a conservative republican and looked at the demography (which is largely how i built the argument) and was asked to advise democrats, i’d tell them the same thing: in our “49-49 America”, where targeting is more sophisticated than ever and resources must be spent as wisely as possible, why would the more liberal-progressive of the two parties reach for the least-likely voters–the most conservative voters in the most conservative states in the most conservative region?
one never hears anyone–not rove, not broder, not matthews, not carville–suggest that george bush should wear a sideway-turned red NY Yankees cap and some bling to appeal to what i call the “J-Lo voter”? that voter is female, urban/suburban, younger, single (or serially single, in J-Lo’s case!), minority, and liberal on cultural-religious issues. yet somehow dems are supposed to go after “nascar dads”–married, white, christian, blue-collar, non-college educated, males in a country where the traditional family share, whites, christians, non-college educatees, and men are a declining share of the population and/or voters each election cycle! NASCAR may be becoming more popular, but the NASCAR profile is a declining market share.
A lot of people in the ’south’ dislike two things. Very much. “Northern attitude”, so called, and being patronized.
I apologize.
raven @
50
Pachacutec @
56
Christy Hardin Smith @ 54
“Authentic” bugs me. How is it that people like Bush and Allen are perceived as “authentic,” when their public personas are entirely fake?
Folks in the south are not stupid. They have computers, read newspapers, books, mags and watch tv. They know what the issues are. They don’t necessarily sit around making stupid jokes, drinking beer or whatever and go out at night to hunt whatever moves.
Digby @ 67
I don’t like that either, Digby. I live in a heavily Latino neighborhood, and I have Latinos in my extended family, so I’ll admit that I’m particularly sensitive to this “illegal alien” race baiting…
So anyways, now to my next question:
My dad’s family is originally from San Antonio, and my ex now lives in Dallas, so I kinda have ties to Texas. As we talked about earlier, Texas is one of the only Southern states with a large AND growing Latino population. Also as mentioned earlier, many non-Southerners (white and minority) are moving to Austin, Dallas, and the other metro areas with many new job opportunities…
For so long, Texas seemed so hopeless…
But with the demographic changes happening there, could Texas actually be one of the first Southern states to turn competitive any time in the near future?
Thanks again, Dr. Schaller, for answering my other question earlier. I appreciate your coming here to talk about the South with us. : )
Tom Schaller @ 80
The mountain west makes a lot more sense as a growth area for Democrats-I’ve heard Colorado described as “a state where membership of the Sierra Club and the NRA are not incompatible”.
Redshift at 82 — because Bush And Allen’s public personas are authentic — they come across as rednecks who don’t care about what other people think. Which, frankly, pretty much sums up a lot about both Bush and Allen. Unfortunately, there is also a segment of the population — all over the country — which thinks this is nifty. SIGH
I agree with that OK @ 80. I have lots of friends and family in the South that are chagrined not only by their fellow state citizens, but also by their countrymen. I will not ever give up on the South, myself.
I will venture to say that people like dubya and Felix (not true Southerners at all, btw) were so successful by pretending to be “aw shucks, regular good ole boys”. They were fake and yet it appealed to those that felt that the Northerners were looking down their collective noses at them.
Tom Schaller @ 80
(emphasis added)
My take – not using the language of game theory but clearly coming from it – is that Dean and Rahm are engaged in a Prisoner’s Dilemma. By pushing their separate agendas, they end up working against the broader, shared goal. Rahm wants to (a) protect his incumbent Dems in the House, and (b) take away some GOP seats. Dean wants to work on races up and down the ticket, not simply the House races.
The place where the “Prisoner’s Dilemma” falls down when applied to Dean and Rahm is that there’s no warden that keeps them from cooperating – only their own egos!
vulture @ 77
I’m less fluent on the attidinal data on gender, but here;s what i can tell you about the behavioral data (specifically electoral results): the gender gap–one of the most critical components of a national democratic majority–is smallest, almost to the point of non-existent among whites, in the South!
in fact, there were five states in 2004 where there was either no gender gap or the gap was REVERSED (women voting MORe GOP) among whites…and three of those five states were in the south. the fact is that white women in the south vote almost as republican as their sons, fathers, brothers and husbands do. and this makes winning there even harder.
as for the history of feminism in the south, most of the FEMALE anti-female-suffrage groups were founded or strongly supported in the south. so little surprise this: when the women’s suffrage amendment passed, the 36th state was TN…but of the 12 that had not ratified it yet (or voted actively NOT to ratify it), 8 were former confederate states. and to this day, most southern states rank near the bottom in terms of the share of female state legislators. (see Rutgers’ Center for Women in American Politics site). indeed, the state ranked 50th, and the only state without at least double-digit share of female legislators (at least prior to 2006, must double-check) in America is SC–just 8.8% there are fewer women in the 170-member SC legislature–get this–than there are DEMOCRATIC women in California’s 53-member US HOUSE delegation. stunning.
“Authentic” bugs me. How is it that people like Bush and Allen are perceived as “authentic,” when their public personas are entirely fake?
because their fake persona’s are a reflection of their real politics. So when the elite private school educated George Allen or George Bush puts on a “hunting cap”, he’s seen as “authentic” because he’s already established that he’s a “Good Ol’ Boy” (i.e. a bigot).
It works both ways, btw. Ed Rendell could wear a Fiddy Cents T-Shirt, and get away with it — George Allen never could.
Tom, you funny.
angie @ 88
I agree with the poster upthread, that it’s as much a rural/urban thing as it is a north/south thing. The Civil War history seems to amplify it.
Peterr @ 68
True, but the AMOUNT of money one raises is not a zero-sum game. Nationwide, those of us who feel lukewarm about the Democrats concentrating on their own Southern strategy and listening to Mudcat Saunders might be less enthused about giving them money than if they built up their own brand and went for everywhere else.
Besides, as the Republican brand becomes more distilled (Trent Lott, anyone?), will the evidence that Republicans have lost moderates and independents even within their own party not become startingly obvious for ‘08? 2010? 2012? Is perhaps the age of running towards the Republicans instead of against them already over?
When George Bush cranks up that Texas crap, he comes across as being as phony as a three dollar bill. Come on down here George, and work a couple of weeks with us in the cotton fields in late fall and the winter wheat fields in early spring. I can’t stand the President. Not for what he is, but for what he pretends to be. Bush is a ‘designer populist’.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 81
Also Oklahoma kiddo at 84:
I have heard plenty about this response, Oklahoma kiddo, though I haven’t met it in person. I don’t like being patronized, either, so I don’t blame Southerners for feeling that way. And I wouldn’t dare do it myself—my Oklahoma grandmother would rise from her grave and set me straight. As an outsider here, I don’t even know how to talk about these issues: I don’t want to give offense, and I don’t know how to get started. So I just keep quiet, read the local papers, and listen to the local radio and try to understand my new home state (of a few years now). A forum like this one tonight is helpful (though now I really have to go look after the dog!).
I find every southerner that I meet to be gracious; I can’t say the same for every single transplant I have met. And I’ve listened to some of my southern friends talk about how offended they are by certain kinds of behaviors that are being imported. So I laughed recently when I saw a bumper sticker that read: “We don’t care how you do it up north.”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 80
I don’t doubt that southerners dislike this. But let me just say, and with all due respect, is there not an anti-northern attitude that northerners must suffer? Is not the GOP the party that has made hay for DECADES now openly villifying “northeastern liberals” BY NAME? You don’t hear democrats villifying “southern conservatives” by name, even though almst every progressive change in our histry was generally supported by NE liberals/progressives and opposed by southern conservatives (Dixiecrats until mid-20th, and then a mix and now Republicans). Go look at the history of american constitutional amendments–for suffrage, child labor, civil rights. The southern conservatives fought them all. Are we liberal-progressives (northern or otherwise) allowed to take offense with that?
as for being patronized, isn’t all the “these people” comments about “urban folks” in the northeast (often just code for “lazy, shiftless blacks who want my welfare dollars”) patronizing…or worse?
there’s plenty to take offense to, all around.
Outstanding discussion. Thanks Tom, Digby, FDL…
Not much of a contribution, but a few things I’ve been thinking about recently, related to the topic:
1) Howard Dean’s comments during the Dem. debates about appealing to confederate flag waving truck drivers. Seems like an impossible battle to get some 50-State supporters to also understand the subtle difference between abandoning principles vs. being competitive all over.
2) Joe Lieberman’s race baiting in CT (What a loser). How do we get rid of that crap in the North?
3) Obama. Will be interesting to see his campaign and the ensuing reactions nationwide.
Pachacutec @ 91
Yeah, but looks aren’t everything!
Tom,
Thanks so much for answering all these questions. Wow. It’s clear that you know your material backwards and forwards.
Any thoughts on Tom Edsall’s book “Red America”?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 95
Heck, when I asked friends of my ex (Back when we were still dating, of course) about Bush while I was in Dallas, they blushed…
They echoed the same comment that got The Dixie Chicks into so much trouble 3 years ago:
They were ashamed that George W. Bush calls Texas his home!
In fact, one of them even kept repeating that Bush is really from Connecticut…
But then again, I was talking to a bunch of gay professionals, after all…
And as we all know, there aren’t many reasons for us queers to like Bush. : )
as for the history of feminism in the south, most of the FEMALE anti-female-suffrage groups were founded or strongly supported in the south.
aside — this is unsurprising, insofar as the original American suffragette movement was an outgrowth of the abolitionist movement (and a reaction to that movement’s refusal to seat women as delegates to an abolitionist convention. )
Tom Schaller @ 80
This is hardly surprising. Southern Whites are the original practitioners of identity politics. They were so successful at it, they made it invisible, like water to a fish. It’s what we swim in.
Naturally, we shouldn’t fall for it. But there’s nothing strange about the fact that people do. We just need to do exactly what you just did–find ways to point out how silly it is.
I’M GONNA HAVE TO SIGN OFF AT 4, BUT BEFORE I GO A FEW THINGS I’D LIKE TO SAY:
1. THANKS TO JANE, CHRISTY AND CHRISTINA FOR INVITING ME TO DO THIS. I’M HONORED.
2. DIGBY: WHAT CAN I SAY? YOU HAD ME AT HELLO.
3. I HAVE NEVER BLOGGED UNDER A PSEUDONYM (GOING BACK TO MY dKOS DAYS IN 2004, AND STILL DON’T, AND I ALWAYS MAKE MY EMAIL AVAILABLE TO ANYONE WHO WANTS TO CONTACT ME. HERE IT IS: schaller67@hotmail.com
4. FOR MORE ON THE BOOK, FEEL FREE TO DROP BY MY SITE. I HOPE YOU WILL SUPPORT ME BY PICKING UP A COPY FOR YOURSELF OR AS A HOLIDAY GIFT FOR YOUR FAVORITE DEMOCRAT.
5. HAVE A GREAT HOLIDAY, ALL!
CHEERS, TOM
Hey Tom,
I have a theory, and it’s just that … a theory, that the Republicans already understand your premise when it comes to Presidential elections. Starting in 1952 every GOP candidate (George Senior and Junior are [or were considered] technically Texans) has been from west of the Mississippi River.
*Ford is an aberration, he was an incumbent who wasn’t originally nominated or elected
1952 – Eisenhower – Kansas
1956 – Eisenhower – Kansas
1960 – Nixon – California
1964 – Goldwater – Arizona
1968 – Nixon – California
1972 – Nixon – California
1976* – Ford – Michigan
1980 – Reagan – California
1984 – Reagan – California
1988 – Bush 1 – Texas
1992 – Bush 1 – Texas
1996 – Dole – Kansas
2000 – Bush 2 – Texas
2004 – Bush 2 – Texas
Just a theory. Your Mileage may vary
Tom Schaller @ 96
I reckon we progressives need to get past the stereotypes and work on real issues that appeal to everybody.
(way too simplistic and complex, but there it is!)
Arrgh, I always get here a minute too late
Looking forward to reading the book, and thanks for being here.
And goddam, I sure does love me some Digby. Truly the best contemporary writer I have ever had the pleasure of reading. Thanks for EVERYTHING, Digby.
Wow, thanks for the skinny on Harold Ford. This gay black westerner (formerly a northerner) is really glad he lost.
Thank you Tom! It was mad fun.
And thanks to all you FDLers, of course. You guys throw the best parties.
happy happy, everybody.
Digby @ 99
TOM EDSALL? GREAT GUY, SMART, HAS CHRONICLED THE RIGHT FOR DECADES.
ONLY PROBLEM WITH LATEST BOOK IS THAT HE;S ABOUT 6 YEARS TOO LATE. HAD IT COME OUT IN SUMMER 2000, HE’D HAVE BEEN HAILED A GENIUS.
Urban Pirate @
107
I’ll second that, must-read daily.
Digby, I had no idea you were female!
Thank you very, very much Digby!
Digby @ 110
Thanks for hosting the salon, Digby!
I like reading your blog, and perhaps now that you’ve come here, I’ll have to start commenting on Hullabaloo. : )
May I gently suggest if one really wants to experience Northern and Southern living, then they should do so. I’ve spent half my life in No. California and the other half deep in Dixie. I have no regrets. Preconceived notions of either region does no good.
Tom at 79:
The biggest factor in determining the future of the Democratic Party in the south is how it handles the coming crises engendered by the last twenty-six years of Republican rule (Clinton was forced rightward by the virulence of the conservative onslaught against him). Just as the Great Depression drove many Republicans into the Democratic Party, so will the economic dislocations and adjustments that are to come return Southerners to the Democratic fold.
Racism aside, Southerners are suffering from the Bush Economy just as much as are their fellow Americans in the rest of the country–maybe more. The South can put aside its racism if there’s no bread and butter on the table. And indications are that–rather than turn on minorities/immigrants–the inescapable evidence of Republican malfeasance will work to the benefit of Democrats.
Racism is every bit as bad and prevalent in the North as it is in the South.
Seconded, OK kiddo @ 115.
I have lived in VA, CA, and in New England and gone cross country 3 times by car and have traveled abroad a lot. People really are the same everywhere; sometimes they just let their ugliness and beauty hang out more than not.
I also firmly believe that we seek out our own. We just need to make our brand the better option in every way.
“I reckon we progressives need to get past the stereotypes and work on real issues that appeal to everybody.”
Hamas, Fatah groups announce truce
This will be unwelcome news in at least a couple of countries. I’m thinking.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..s_politics
ptooey on them that ain’t happy about that news.
I am grateful and relieved; it must be terribly difficult to make peace when everyone around you, friends and family, are living in extremis in the world’s biggest prison………….
where did everybody go?
It’s just you and me, kiddo! (I am honored.)
Sorry I missed the party as a SP. Is that secular progressive or southern progressive. Hmmm, not sure.
I like what Tom said about tactics in dealing with the confederate south with a full frontal assault. Here in Oklahoma, I have some friends in the state Chamber of Commerce, and I’ve been harping on this to them for quite some time.
It makes it tough to increase our economic base by marginalizing ourselves by walking lockstep with dwindling vision.
They look at me like a bull looking at a new gate.
I think they are starting to get “the vision thing” since November. And they embrace legalization of immigrants (well, duh) which is out of step with the “
Lawn Order” Law And Order Republicans.Good to know Digby struggles so to hammer out those incredible posts. I had visions of a blogger sitting down and hammering out these brilliant essays in an effortless huff, pearls of wisdom cast before the swine of ignorance.
Prolly too many pronouns in the description though, supposed to be seekrit.
hiya Grampa OFG!
The smaller the unit, the less important these factors are in much of the south, thus Democrats can win state and local offices at a higher rate than statewide and national races. In fact they need to do so to eliminate the gerrymandering that has been imposed. As important as a 50 state strategy is, is an every county strategy within the states.
Thanx Angie! His name is Brando. Kewl huh.
tres kewl! Love it.
Until there is a resolution of the Palestinian homeland issue and self determination for the Palestinians, there never, ever will be peace in the Middle East. This is not a difficult supposition.
why does everyone tip toe around the root cause of the “southern problem”? The Southern problem for the United States is not racism, it is not bible beltery, it is not militarism. These are ALL SYMPTOMS, THEY ARE NOT THE DISEASE.
The disease afflicting southern whites is IGNORANCE. They are uneducated, unintelligent, uninquisitve Neanderthals that have no place in a modern industrialized, educated society.
They are dangerously ignorant; they are dangerously frightened and easy to manipulate; and they are a boat anchor around the neck of the entire country. They are the cult of republicanism that has set the US back at least a generation and I truly hope they can be held in check in the political wilderness forever.
.
Dead climber found on Mt. Hood. Bummer.
pluege @ 129
Yer funnin’ me, aren’t you?
pluege– I have to absolutely refute what you said– they are not ignorant.
You are dead wrong on this one and I find it offensive in the extreme.
Great discussion, sorry I missed it (an unfortunate trend with me and the Salon of late)…
Just an observation – but I have always wondered why the voting rates are so very low in the South. I understand that 30 years ago (and coming back if Rove has his way) they made it very difficult to vote. But in the last 20 years those rates have remained very small. Smaller than the rest of the country.
And Mr. Schaller said that increasing dem voter turnout from 32% to 42% will not help. I say that we must make them consistent voters who listen to the policies. It is the democrats who should stand for more people voting, not less i.e. the republicans.
Just my observation.
I agree with you entirely, pluege.
Slate had a most wonderful article some years ago, entitled “The Case for Northern Secession.”
Part of it was tongue-in-cheek; part of it really made one wonder…
http://www.slate.com/default.aspx?id=102291
One category of people who view another category of people as inferior is classified as racism.
Classifying “the south” as intellectually inferior, resulting in the symptom of racism, places the author in the very camp they choose to shame.
I am not a racist, and resent being called ugly by frogs.
Digby’s introductory essay was one of the most exciting posts I’ve read in a while, and it made me decide to buy Schaller’s book for my father, an 85-year-old Kansas liberal. So whoever told Digby to cut it short was way off the mark. Keep it long , Digby.
Hmmm. Let’s see now. The voters of CT. re-elected Joe Lieberman, a man I dislike. This must mean the people of CT. are ignorant.
angie @ 132
I’m sure a lot of them ARE ignorant, but ignorant white people aren’t exclusive to the south. I’ve worked in construction and manufacturing for over 25 years, and I’ve met a lot of Joe Six-Packs, both here in the US and in my native England. I’ve met a lot of stupid Americans, English, Mexicans, Irish, Indians, Pakistanis, Afro-Carribeans, Australians, and sundry other nationalities. I’ve also met a lot of smart people from those countries and cultures. Mostly I’ve met people who are trying to make a living, keep a roof over their heads, and eat. You can’t generalise like that-only Republicans can ;)
In the summer of 1966, Dr. Martin Luther King came to Chicago to promote fair housing. It was one of his rare failures. When King led a march on Gage Park, a white section of Chicago, he was confronted by a white mob and knocked to the ground by a rock. People shouted, “Kill him, kill him!” King commented, “The people of Mississippi ought to come to Chicago to learn how to hate.”
Walter Crockett @
137
Seconded.
Tom Edsall — lost me when he sat on Hugh Hewitt’s lap and said the media was comprised of a bunch of liberals with a liberal bias.
Feh.
I am constantly amazed at the human capacity for ignorance. No matter the region.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 143
or the country or the “leaders”.
Oilfieldguy @
126
You a grampa? That’s terrific news, and what a great name!
Oilfieldguy @ 136
Hell yeah, OFG.
angie @ 144
Exactly.
I’m a liberal, some might say a radical. Most people in my small town of 300 fellow southern types or so, know it. And they don’t seem to care.
With the current dismal state of the media and the Democratic leadership– who bend over backwards to not seem to have values or clear ideas or ideals–what can we do to help those that actually do have those values and act on them? I’m thinking Feingold and all the new populists elected (before they get bought by big business), and all the others who are either marginalized or those things ignored about them. Edwards too–his focus on poverty and class and the economy is already lost in all the horserace coverage. And Hillary and Obama both are either going right or scolding other Democrats for not doing so.
PeteCO and raven– i very much appreciate your comments at 139 and 140.
The South
It’s not a hot bed of forward thinking politicians- or if they are thinking forward- they wrap their thoughts in 1950’s wrapping paper..
Still dems DO win in the south..
They win in Arkansas, Louisiana, Florida, and until recently controlled the state of Texas..
Virginia is not looking bad- and North Carolina has it’s moments..Georgia had, until recently, a dem senator–etc.
So the question is not whether to write off the south- that will not happen..
The question is not whether to spend money there- dems will on promising races..
The question is really whether or not to tailor the dem message to southern tastes..
Even this is not an issue for senate or house candidates- of course they will
This whole thing is about presidential politics
Whether or not to seek southerners as candidates (sort of irrelevant- since they throw their own hats into the ring)- and whether or not to make southern leaning issues a part of the presidential “platform”..
To make it even simpler- it’s about whether or not presidential candidates should talk about their protestant faith publicly ala Clusterfuck and whether they should hold up goose guns ala Kerry.
Well that’s really a question that will be answered by individual dem presidential candidates- but probably many will decide to talk about their faith and show their guns- because it doesn’t cost em a damned thing.
amberglow @ 149
I like what you’re telling me.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 143
I prefer to be amazed at the brilliance of those such as Jane and Digby and Pach and the outstanding authors the share with us here on the book salon.
A thought for an fdl function at this years Ykos:
I come to this site to learn, as do others. I do not know if it is possible to sort IP addresses by time spent at the lake by hours, but it would be kewl to pass out honorary degrees. It wouldn’t take too much thought for clever titles.
I would be willing to help sponsor such a thing.
Tom, thanks for the kind words in comment 25.
Here’s the column I wrote after Tom’s recent visit to NC:
http://edcone.typepad.com/word……html#more
Note that Guilford County, populous and industrial but not part of the Research Triangle or the Charlottesphere, is solidy Democratic, and that Larry Kissell came very close to beating Robin Hayes in a rural/small town district. Economic populism is a real factor here. NC is a very different place than its deep south sisters.
angie @
132
Good for you – be offended “in the extreme”. But while you have you head in the sand: racism, southern bible belt religiosity, and militarism are ALL THE SYMPTOMS OF IGNORANCE!
.
President Carter and President Clinton, two men who I voted for twice, were Southerners. Were these presidents stupid? Harry Truman was a Southerner too.
The only problem is that this stuff has nothing to do with Georgraphy.
pluege @ 155
Oklahoma kiddo @ 148
My wife has an aunt who owns a sucessful small business in the Kansas City suburb of Overland Park. We make great sport of the Kansas City branch of the family, deriding their backwardness compared to we Denver sophisticates. Imagine our surprise when we met their best friends last July 4th weekend when we visited-a happily out gay couple. “In Kansas? Surely not!”
Beware of stereotypes, for they are frequently bollocks.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 156
They must have been knuckle-dragging, bible thumping, gun-toting, racist morons. They were Southerners. Ask pluege to elaborate for you.
Oilfieldguy @ 153
honorary degrees?
Well pluege, I remain offended and I live quite near ignoramuses in NH now and did for a long time in CA and CT, too.
I guess you live in a very special, smart place.
Sorry to have missed another Salon. I recruited tech workers — systems and process programmers — from the Rust Belt to the Carolinas and Virginia, for tobacco, textile, and other manufacturing companies, back in the 1980s. I could always tell how easy a “get” would be, based on the reaction of the employee being courted. Some were happy to leave the “problems” of the North behind, seeing that in their view those problems included schools being integrated and workplaces being made less discriminatory. Others were horrified after a visit to the South, especially so when their spouses accompanied them.
I wonder whether those “happy relocators” aren’t the backbone of the Southern GOP now, or if their kids are. They seemed happy to move to a part of the country where it was more acceptable to wear one’s racism openly and where their kids weren’t going to be mixing with non-whites, as had begun in Northern schools.
These people weren’t rednecks or haters, in their view. They were just happy to be relocating to an area where their superiority was acclaimed by the culture, feeling very threatened by the changes Up North.
Not sure we’ll ever win over those who believe, as some people do believe everywhere but more so in the South, that some people are born more equal than others, when our party is rightly the home of those who believe in equality of birth and equality of opportunity.
Sure to be EPU’d now.
Well, I’m just a dumb Okie. Is that what they’re called? Aren’t you a teecher?
pluege @ 156
pleuge-
I don’t know how exactly to put this to you…
But racism, fake religiosity, and militarism can be found just about anywhere…
Hell, I live in Southern CALIFORNIA, and I can show you some ugly examples of all three here on the “Left Coast”…
Of course, I can also introduce you to many good people here who stand for acceptance and peace…
And yes, it’s the same in the South…
Again, I’ve been to Dallas, and there were also nasty, ignorant people…
And there were brilliant, kind souls…
Ignorance knows no boundaries, and neither does intelligence. : )
raven @
157
I agree, there are stupid racist, religionist, militarists everywhere; in the rest of the country and whatever happens to be the most enlightened place on earth. But the problem for the South, and for the US by association is that ignorance IS the dominant position. Which doesn’t preclude that there are plenty of intelligent and brilliant southerners…just not enough to find their way into leadership positions of the area.
.
pluege @ 156
Perhaps. But, these are the “traditional” values that the GOP has been successful at stimulating. Militarism is a manipulated outgrowth of patriotism, for example. The “bible belt religiosity” has always been there, even though manipulated for political effect today. And, it’s been rooted in a kind of fierce independence that can be traced back to the Protestant Reformation in Europe. The racism, of course, is part of what Southerners conceive of as their agrarian livelihood (however much that is not literally true today).
But, keep in mind, to the extent that the charge of ignorance applies, that ignorance is correctable, a condition which never applies to stupidity….
I recruited high aptitude african americans to Dallas, Texas.
Many were living in the north in neighborhoods where they were a VERY small minority and were glad to get back into a city where there was a vibrant Black Culture…
Oilfieldguy @ 163
Yep Abner, I’m just a teeeecher. And an Okie to boot. So I am stupid. ;)
“But, keep in mind, to the extent that the charge of ignorance applies, that ignorance is correctable….”
hope springs eternal…without it there wouldn’t be much point in anyting.
.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 156
At least they weren’t Massage an Ated!
I agree. I went to the Falcons_Cowboy game last night and there were lots of Black folks there and everyone seemed to get along fine.
rwcole @ 167
montag @ 167
And don’t forget that these problems aren’t limited to the South…
Check this out!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 169
OK kiddo-
If you’re stupid, then I must be a complete imbecile. ; )
Even South Carolina is a strange trifurcated state, which goes back to early settlement: the Ulster Protestants (or self-described Scotch-Irish) in the upstate, Germans in the middle and Anglos in the Charleston area. The self-identity that brings forth a Jim Webb is very evident in the area around Clemson — a tight communitarianism that’s often manifested in oppositional terms. But it’s also Bob Jones U. country.
Having Webb in the Senate — and having Webb campaign up in Clemson in 2008 — might even make Lindsay Graham’s race in 2008 more interesting.
(North Carolinians appear to think that SC exists to make NC look good. I couldn’t possibly comment.)
The south is responible for much of our culture- much of what makes us americans..
Much literary talent is from the south- popular music exploded from both sides of Tennessee. Playwrights, novelists, and visual artists- a huge number are southerners..
The south has a large proportion of rural and small town voters- goopers do well with them nationwide- why that is deserves some attention.
Digby’s introductory essay was one of the most exciting posts I’ve read in a while, and it made me decide to buy Schaller’s book for my father, an 85-year-old Kansas liberal. So whoever told Digby to cut it short was way off the mark. Keep it long , Digby.
that was me. And the comment was offered BECAUSE Digby is such a compelling writer — the first comment on this thread was at 2:05. The first substantive comment (i.e., a comment that indicated that someone had read the whole introduction–which I did, because Digby is so compelling a writer) showed up at 2:18.
All I was saying is that FDL had a GUEST here… and that the focus should be on the guest, rather than the (insightful and brilliantly expressed) ideas of the “host”.
new orleans was not mentioned in the dems first 100 hours plan. many feel abandoned, and believe promises will be broken. not just the poor black folks you saw on the tv. the poor white folks, the large middle class black and white folks, and the rich black and white folks have been the victims of a great injustice. the federally designed and constructed levees failed under conditions they were supposed to survive. The USACE has admitted fault, several times. Independent researchers have confirmed. No one has listened. Congress has not responded. We hear arguments about whether new orlenas should be rebuilt, rather than who is to blame and how to fix it.
rwcole @ 151
Hunting and (Christian) religion sells good in rural areas all over the country, so it’s not specifically a Southern strategy. Ditto with sports and the flag. Apparently none of this works in a big way in the South unless racism is thrown in. My take on Tom Schaller’s comments is not that it’s impossible to win the South, but way more difficult than we imagine.
rwcole @ 175
yep!
Just finished listening to a “talking” version of a book about small town justice in Ada Oklahoma (by John Grisham)….It had nothing, by the way, to do with rascism- all the defendants and victims were white- but they got railroaded by cops who were threatened by unsolved murders, DAs who needed to get re-elected, and juries who found it easy to bow down to authority and give a guilty verdict when asked by one of their elected officials…
Is this a particularly southern phenomenon? I doubt it- I suspect you’d get some similar results in many small towns.
Just proves what I have always said: a rabid FRINGE MINORITY has had the floor in this country for far too long
“The past isn’t dead – it’s not even the past.” Faulkner
White, protestant patriarchy wasn’t just an unfortunate habit or a lifestyle choice in the American South. It is the central tenet of its founding mythology, the explanation for the world being the way it is.
The people of the South endured a war of unimaginable (for us) carnage and devastation. They did so willingly because it was in defense their founding mythology. They lost the war militarily but, unlike the people of Germany and Japan post-WWII, their core beliefs remained intact. Imagine Germany today if the Nazi Party, with all its racial theories, had been allowed to remain in power.
With the failure of the Reconstruction, those beliefs became the law of the former Confederacy. The legally required racial segregation in the South ruled without challenge until the 1960s. The change did not come from inside the South, but was instead forced on them with federal court rulings and federal troops.
To the average American, this is a long time ago. But historically, this is fifteen minutes ago.
Unreconstructed segregationists remained in power. Some, Trent Lott comes to mind, are still in positions of authority. Change comes slowly.
Similarly, the idea that women were not subordinate to men is a brand new idea in America, generally, and in the South and rural America especially.
All of this is brand new and still scary to many people. Republicans, who have no real political principles except “the rich should rule,” were forced to adopt those voters who resisted or refused change. They had no other constituency available to them. The good news, as Schaller demonstrates, is that this constituency is shrinking both in actual numbers and relative to other constituencies.
To reach these voters:
(1) give up on gun control.
(2) acknowledge partial birth abortion as a legitimate concern.
(3) stop ridiculing Christians.
We do these 3 simple things, we will take in MILLIONS of voters.
Right now the perception is that we are going to take away their guns, allow the murder of babies, and encourage the ridicule of religious believers.
Well?
p.lukasiak @ 58
Are you sure? What if the R screws up and that 42 becomes 51? Or what if the demographics change and that candidate can run next year, with name recognition, and win? Or what if we activate a generation of progressives in the area who know the party won’t abandon them?
Yes, focus on the most competitive races, but don’t assume we can’t win anything. The wind can always blow the other way.
EPU but….
Jeebus – Oklahoma Kiddo…my high school graduating class was TWICE the size of your town.
EDIT: And there are/were THREE OTHER HIGH SCHOOLS in this city. It was tali end of Baby Boom (’74) but still…
Hard to fathom…
Congressional districts in the south
Dems already HAVE congresscritters from the south—they are not a majority of the state’s congressional delegations, but there are quite a few of em… It’s not that dems lose all the races in the south- it’s that they lose MOST of em- and in some states- all the statewide races.
Ironically- in colonial days it was New England (sans Rhode Island) that was whacked out about religion- and the south was relatively sane.
Blank Kludge @ 185
I know. I live in a time warp. It’s kinda like that old Twilight Zone episode, “Willoughby”, I think it was, about this man that stepped of the train, and back in time. This town should really be named ‘Eureka’ (I found it). We actually have hay rides here.
Fuck’em.
Thanks -
angie @ 105 said
thank you, angie.
Arkansas is very conservative but entirely blue. A majority wanted much of what Clinton promised, for example. A Wes Clark (somewhat progressive, even populist) would beat our sitting Lieberman, Senator Mark Pryor. We need good candidates who will consistantly stand up for a few election cycles and stick to the sensible approach without a multitude of triangulation (compromised sellout or backstabbing).
Leave gun legislation off the table for the time being (at least) and restore strength behind the conviction of womens right to choose, separation of the church from strong arming state education (anti science, anti free speech) and health care; while eliminating the worst of class/race dividing issues such as campaign finance as we know it, health care for all, equal opportunity for higher education and workers rights to fair treatment and reasonable wages.
I am all for abandoning financial support for a race anywhere (N-S-E-W) that has a couple of same old sh**ters runing for the middle while actually standing for nothing. Isn’t that what Howie and Blue Americans are doing?
We have got to toss out the electronic voting machines (at least the first few generations of machines now in circulation) and radically change the way campaigns are financed or we will continue to be armchair coaches instead of full members in our democracy.
egregious @ 183
(1) is already done, at least outside the cities. In fine libertarian fashion, it’s now up to people like me to screen acquaintances for gun ownership, particularly if visiting kids are involved. Annoying, but manageable, and I’ve quit caring too much about gun accidents– it’s not my problem as long I take the NIMBY approach.
(2) is a crock. D&X is simply a late-term abortion procedure that is appropriate in certain medical situations, but became a great political bludgeon when rechristened with the term you used. End result’s the same as any other abortion late in gestation, but the woman will usually recover– and maybe even conceive a more successful pregnancy– more easily. Maybe that’s why it’s so objectionable; after all, a suffering woman is a good woman.
(3) Almost no one ridicules people who honestly try to live by Christian principles. It’s the political “Christians,” those who trumpet that particular identity in order to railroad and marginalize others, who invite ridicule but cry foul when the [entirely justified] hypocrisy charges materialize. Luckily, the fanatics have finally overreached and are quickly alienating the mushy middle, which is a relief.
Tom..Thanks for the interest and thought put into the south. I am buying your book. I would like to recommend a book that tells the extint of racism in N.C. Blood Done Sign My Name by Tyson. I was brought up there and after reading the book..I understood a lot of things about my family and my state. Didn’t know there was a big massacre of blacks in Wilmington because they were very prosperous.Didn’t give much thought to my mother voting for Harvey Gant(who was black) instead of Jessee Helms after a little talk we had in the voting line. She said,”Don’t tell anybody.”I wish you would look into the effect of Jimmy Carter’s war on the family farm as one reason the dems. lost the south as well as racism. Carter’s friends were big ag. During his term, farmers were encouraged to buy new equipment with low interest loans. The interest rates went to 18 and 20%. The farmers couldn’t buy gas because of that crisis, to harvest their crops.Big ag got a lot of cheap land. Farming is a way of life and love. Land in your family for generations.If the dem. party would support family farmers and working people, they wouldn’t have to be concerned about wearing ballcaps and riding motorcycles to appeal to rednecks. The politicians could be dignified and respect the voters..and likewise. Forgive the length of this comment. I am passionate about it.
Tom Schaller @
96
DING DING DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!
egregious @
183
Harold Ford tried that. He lost. (Which was Schaller’s point.)
Oh, and “partial-birth abortion” is a meaningless term invented by the anti-choicers as a misdesignation for a certain form of abortion generally done only when the fetus is a) already dead and whose rotting body is poisoning the woman carrying it, or b) the fetus is so horribly malformed that it simply isn’t viable. It’s not a legitimate medical term, and your acting as if it was shows that you are yourself ill-informed, or a liar, or quite likely both.
But thanks for playing. Next!
Who lost the Civil War? The South? Last time I checked, 9 in 10 of the black people in the once-and-future U.S. were enslaved in the South when the Union and Confederate armies went to war, and they didn’t lose. So maybe we should aim for more specificity and say that the Confederacy lost. In the same way, let’s be clear on whom we’re whistling past. The conservative base? Amen, and about time. But if whistling past the South means not showing up to campaign, ignoring the black majority districts, averting our eyes from the mess that white conservative rule has made of the rural and urban South, or failing to enlist the support of white liberals in the South (who, in my experience, work harder than any other white voters because they take nothing for granted), we’re not much better than the rednecks we claim to revile. Could we be that dumb? I like to think not. But who among the Democrats actually made Katrina a campaign issue in the miderm elections? What’s the Democrats’ plan to rebuild New Orleans? The Republicans don’t have one, either.
ain’t nothing make a cracker jump faster than callin’ him dumb…yeeeeehhhhaaaaa. and the truth shall set yee free.
.
egregious @ 183
Who exactly in the Democratic party is ridiculing Christians?
Responding to p.lukasiak at #7, let me quickly mention that Digby is a guest. Those opinions, in this particular, and rather unusual, setting, are also here to be appreciated.
Normally, I would agree with p.lukasiak, but this situation is slightly different.
Thanks for a well written, well thought out post. We southern NON-Republican, NON-evangelical, progressives would agree – don’t pander to those biases that have allowed the Republicans to tap the old racism, or perhaps the myth of the Old South. Whatever it’s about, it will only go away with time. Lyndon Johndon knew he was destroying the Democratic Party, and he was right.
We can’t change the way it is right now either, though it’s getting easier to speak up. I expect our kids will see it change when they’re older. The South seem to go in cycles – 1860’s, then 1960’s. Look forward to the 2060’s…
I linked this post on my blogs at the Louisville DL site and the Dem Party Blog because I think it’s so important. This country needs to confront and reject–once and for all– the bigotry and narrow-mindedness of these blindingly stupid, racist, anti-science/reality freaks who are killing the American dream. They must be driven back under their rocks. Like the worms they are, they don’t deserve the light of day.
As I blogged on my Http://louisville.drinkingliberally.org site, the CORRUPT electoral college keeps all Southerners in the chains of their bigoted masters by having their state elect national officials by fiat. It’s not right and dilutes the small voice of southern Liberals by giving the entire state’s votes to a majority of bigots. And let’s not pick nits here: The South is rotten with ignorant biggots.
To reach these voters:
(1) give up on gun control.
(2) acknowledge partial birth abortion as a legitimate concern.
(3) stop ridiculing Christians.
Fuck the idiot gun nuts. They deserve bad government and all the dead people in their community as a result of guns. Ditto the morons who want all the hick, unwanted meth babies the “freedom” to live. It’s a proven fact that the South has the most unwed parents, most stupid kids, most inprisoned adults and children who need the most social services. They suck up the most taxpayer dollars in trying to “get the family together” on the Continent.
We don’t need their shitty “family” values. Decent people run away from these freaks in droves.
it amazes me how some of the angry voices on this thread are willing to be prejudiced against southerners/the south. i grew up there and lived there until i was thirty-nine.
the american south has changed about as much in the past sixty years as any region of the country. and it’s still changing. i lived in tennessee and louisiana when schools got dynamited and the “firey cross” kkk paper was left on doorsteps. i also lived there when an african american student got elected as presdent of the student government association of a state university of whose student demographic was 90% white.
the south will never be a politically liberal or progressive place. and we progressives will never be able to convince southerners to vote in enough numbers for liberal candidates to gain office there if we belittle them and harangue them. calling them hicks, freaks, idiots, gun nuts and biggots is, in fact, idiotic and biggoted.
VickiS @
203
so, Vicki, your whole tirade just doesn’t impress me and it is really counter-productive. political change at the cultural level is extraordinarily difficult to accomplish. it takes patience, focus and living by example. yelling and ridicule and a holier-than-thou attitude never works.
VickiS @
203
Depersonalizing Southerners is a bit like depersonalizing African-Americans, or Arabs, or Jews. If we’ve learned anything in the South, it’s about the dangers of doing that and how long it persists. The South is like Israel and Palestine, except we’re way down the road in the aftermath of a lasting peace. It’s been less than half a century, and it’s not the place I grew up in. Germany is not the place the last generation grew up in either.
I rarely defend the South. Many of the criticisms are still valid. But there are a lot of us who always vote “Blue,” who were the ones down here marching in the streets for change, and who know that it’s not gun control, or abortion, or other simplistic things that still have a grip on the rural South. It’s poverty, lack of education, wounded pride, and the kind of disdain that a few of the comments here express that keeps the South outside the loop.
Prejudice is in the nature of man, as is contempt. Prejudice and contempt against our lingering prejudices and history might be a tempting way to respond to the Republicanization of the South, but it sure isn’t going to change it. You’re right, a big factor in rural Southern politics is prejudice – ours and yours.
I expect a Katrina in Boston would’ve been a different story…
Oklahoma kiddo @
94
designer populist GREAT
Laura didn’t break out the eight thousand dollar gown until after the 2006 election
Tracy @
195
Amen!
VickiS @ 203
Would that it were so easy. You’re not dealing with ‘gun nuts’, but with the NRA, a self-serving lobbying organisation which feeds lies wrapped up in conspiratorial terms. If the Dems conceded every point of the NRA’s political agenda, would that organisation stop lobbying and turn its attention to running local gun classes? Would it hell. There’s no money in that business. It’s the flipside to NARAL, in some ways: so entrenched as an organisation that it needs to sustain conflict to retain its purpose and fill its coffers.
A friend from South Carolina, very well-educated but from a very rural background, showed me the mountain of paper from the NRA about how Kerry had a secret agenda to take away his guns. Of course, it’s hard to refute that kind of bullshit.
These people aren’t idiots. They just drink from polluted streams.
The truth is that the South is a different country altogether. That is the elephant in America’s room.
A cordial invitation for them to secede is the best for all concerned.
Rob @
209
Agreed, with the additive that non-southerners would be glad to help all southerners identifying with the tendencies of the non-south to repatriate to the north, mid-west, or west, and leave “bubba” to rot on the vine.
.
Rob @
209
funny thing. with the attitude you’ve got, i can’t tell you from every red neck i’ve ever met. didn’t yo momma teach you no manners? y’all oughta be ashamed!