Last weekend, I asked for nominations for Great Moments in Politically Correct Humor. No one responded. Does this qualify?
I'm half latino, as I've written about before. And, as some of you may have gathered, I'm gay, queer, homolicious. ¡Vivo mi manera!
My identity as a latino no doubt accounts for my particular identification with those rounded up by the ICE this last week, breaking up families and leaving children-citizens effectively orphaned. I know full well that many in the latino community don't similarly feel much of an identification with me, as a half-euro American gay man who speaks perfect English, limited Spanish and both of whose parents were born in the continental United States. That relative lack of reciprocity doesn't limit my desire or ability to speak up on their behalf with whatever platform I have at my disposal, to the best of my ability.
Identity is a tricky thing. While I identify as gay, I recently had an experience that highlighted for me the limits of signifiers of identity in creating quick ties with others. On the one hand, we use terms of identity to confer or communicate our membership in a particular group, suggesting a shared world view or life experience, but then again, not all members of any particular group define what it means to be part of the group the same way.
I recently was introduced to a gay man by a mutual friend, a straight woman. When he learned I was gay, he immediately launched into a kind of long lost best friend rapport with me, centered on dishy conversation about hair, nails and makeup. Oops. That's not me. For him, being gay meant we could talk about these interests and hold them in common, but that's just not my world. I think he felt rather put off that I was not really sharing his sense of new found intimacy, but then again, I felt a little annoyed that he would make all these assumptions about me just because the word "gay" applies to my identity. Labels can be limiting.
Sure, sometimes I banter about very "gayish" things like that here in the comments just for fun and laughs among our commenters, but it's not really me. I'd never get a job on Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, because I'm no makeover expert (that, and I'm too ugly for teevee!). I dress okay – well enough not to lose credibility among members of my tribe – but that's it. At the same time, I have no problem with gay men who are more stereotypically "gay," and I put some effort a while back into describing some of that cultural experience for a wider audience with my post about drag. One thing I do share with most gay men is a level of comfort with very, shall we say, blue humor, imagery and language. Sometimes, that has gotten me in a little bit of trouble. Not everyone enjoys or appreciates that sort of thing, or where it comes from, in terms of the liberation of sexuality by aggressively pushing the boundaries of commonly held social, sexual taboos. Oh well.
I had a conversation online once – okay, it was an argument – where the other person said the experience of marginalization or exclusion confers wisdom. I disagree. The experience of marginalization can give one an education in social power and the ways it is wielded, and of the many modes of social control available to the majority. Wisdom, in my personal and professional, psychological view, comes from transcending one's own experiences, even one's own victim or traumatic experiences, to empathize with others ostensibly unlike oneself.
Wisdom transcends parochial views of identity, but does not negate them. Once a person has come through whatever traumas they may have experienced in life to recognize that others also experience traumas, and uses that understanding to identify a common humanity among members of all groups, that's wisdom. The fruit of wisdom is empathy, and perhaps also the understanding that even victims can become oppressors, that one's own group can occasionally, intentionally or unintentionally, victimize or oppress others.
Back in my days of clinical work, we used to recognize that one of the best prognostic indicators of future recovery from trauma was the presence of a sense of humor. Humor, by its nature, places pain in a new perspective, allowing the one experiencing trauma to transcend it and gain power over it. Tribalism and identity wars are exceedingly destructive things, but humor can provide a pathway toward some escape, as long as it's the right kind of humor: humor that helps transcend tribal categories to bring the experience of victimization into a common, human context. Richard Pryor did this with Mudbone and his other characters, masterfully. This is the genius of humor and empathy, humor that brings to the surface a kind of transgressive truth.
Some gay folks might take offense at the video above, seeing it as a trivialization or mockery of the deeper themes of love, oppression and isolation experienced by gay and lesbian folks in the wider culture. Feh. I don't see it that way. Carlos Mencia is playing with identity to transform the often painful, difficult experience of Mexican American integration within US society into humor. He does it in a way that is genuinely funny, reaching out to people who do not share the "wetback" cultural experience. Good stuff.
One of the things that drew me to this site, or at least, what really kept me here back in my commenter days, was the extent to which I saw Jane and Christy speaking from a position of empathy with those whose life experiences were not their own. Yes, based in part on my own experiences of marginalization, as well as my training and experience working on behalf of victims of sexual and domestic violence, I had already come to identify with, among other things, the experiences of women and the importance of choice: that made FDL feel like home to me. But what also kept me here was the playfulness and humor they and others here brought to their discussions of these and other subjects. In person, I've found a lot of folks from around here to be not only playful, but also, somehow, quietly happy people, even as they're frequently irreverent. . . which is to say, they're funny. The best part of Yearly Kos for me last June was meeting and hanging out with many of you.
Tonight, I want to open up the Late Nite discussion to everyone, even (perhaps especially) our beloved lurkers, to kick around the following questions: What labels do you use to identify yourself? What do these words mean to you? In what ways do you think people often misunderstand you based on their presumptions about your identity? What kinds of irreverent or politically incorrect humor related to your group feel okay to you, and which kinds don't? How important is it for someone making a politically incorrect joke about a given group to have legitimacy as a member of that group? Can you find and share any good comedic YouTube clips in the comments for others to see, relevant to this discussion?
See you in the comments. Oh, and I would so do Mario Lopez.
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Evening, Pach. Thought provoking post.
Hi Pach!
I heard recently that Mr. Mencia is Dominican. Any truth to that?
Hi, angie. Heya gang.
lf: I hadn’t heard that. He always seems to represent himself as a “beaner,” aka, of Mexican origin.
Speaking of ‘who are you’, Time Magazine just announced that their person of the year is YOU.
Yes, you are the person of the year. Time has finally gotten something right. The whole article is about bloggers and you tube. I haven’t had a chance to read it all the way through, but hopefully they give political bloggers their due as well.
Regardless, this is an extremely encouraging sign, especially coming from the home of Joke Line.
xyz: Allow me a self serving moment. . .
Back in March or so when Christy was in town to do Sunday morning on CSpan, we had dinner. I predicted to her then that “bloggers” or the “netroots” would be Time’s Person of the Year. The way they wrote the article, I wasn’t that far off.
Okay, I’ll behave myself now.
Pach – well done. For the record, my mom predicted a couple days ago that ‘the political blogger’ would be the person of the year. – responded by agreeing with her that this would be an appropriate and excellent choice – but that Time would never do it because it would legitimate one of the greatest threats to their traditional/corporate media empire. Plus I couldn’t imagine Joke Line letting them Time do it…
Anyway, you and my mom were right, thank goodness.
And Joke Line can kiss our ring, as he likes to say.
Great post, Pach.
I personally identify as a woman and a feminist, but within that I have a much broader range of acceptable expression than many who would say likewise. If a joke or an expression is meant to keep someone down as a member of a group, and by extension a way of keeping the entire group down, it’s probably going to make me uncomfortable and testy. That’s where intent comes in, which can often be a difficult thing to discern (especially for those who don’t bother trying). If I make a joke talking about Michelle Malkin going clack-clack-clack across the outlet mall looking for something to wear on Hannity, I’m not trying to say that her femininity and lack of seriousness disqualifies her from participation in political dialog, I’m trying to say she has cheap tacky taste. If someone were to make the same joke in order to imply that women were nothing but addle-headed shoppers who shouldn’t be talking politics on TV, that is quite something else.
Pachacutec!
Great post. Maybe I’ll have more to say after I give it some thought.
before I get started – I really liked this -
The fruit of wisdom is empathy
Thanks for that.
Here’s a link to Time’s person of the year article.
http://www.time.com/time/magaz…..14,00.html
Jane:
That’s pretty much the point my partner made, when he asked me over dinner what I’m writing about tonight. He talked about “context,” but he included in that, “intent.”
He was discussing Rosie O’Donnell. Now, my partner is not Chinese American, but Japanese American, and active in a local Asian identity group in town. While some members were upset with Rosie’s fake Chinese talk joke, my partner was not.
Why?
From his perspective, Rosie is a legitimate civil rights activist and comedian. The same line from her is not the same as hearing it form, say, Pat Buchanan, in my partner’s point of view.
This is a long way of saying that he agrees with you, and his point of view looks not merely to text, but context, and even personality or character.
I should add that he’s never shy about telling me when he thinks I’m full of shit.
Empathy, Harmony, Peace, Knowledge and Love and more Peace.
that’s it; problems solved.
mwah, Pach; you’re special!
My brother is gay. When he finally came out to me, i felt a bit honored, really – that he’d finally felt that he could trust me (ya know, after being the family jock and all) to be human and intelligent, loving, and not the jerk that he had every right to expect me to be….
Oh my, you know I really cared what happpen to those children that the feds picked up …. does this make me gay ?????
The combination of sharp wit and observation coupled with intense empathy for the human condition is what drew me here and has kept me addicted to a daily FDL fix. I identify as a gay hippie/pagan and like you don’t identify too strongly with gay pop culture. I don’t have too much of an issue with it as I’ve always been something of a loner. I take that label mostly for myself to keep my priorities straight. The spiritual overview is utmost in my day to day filtering of reality and the world stage. One of my favorite comedians is Tracy Ullman. Her “Takes On…” series has some of the best comedy that stretches PC boundries and yet never forgets it’s humanism. I love it! It seems to me that people can instinctually feel comedy that is empathetic vs. mean and that is where two different individuals can do the same shtick and one comes off poorly and the other is hysterical…
Good to see you, Kelvin. And while I’m at it, welcome, “lurkers!”
While it may not confer “wisdom” I do think that gay men and women at some point in life confront the fact that they are not the person that they are “supposed” or “expected” to be and that this opens the door to a wider sphere of empathy. While it’s not impossible for a straight man to have this happen there is much more social support for the roles.
I’m gay and for many years sported the “Castro clone” and later the “Folsom” look. Now a days I look “biker” and it’s amazing the degree to which that affects people’s perceptions of me. I’m a pussy cat but people assume I’m some kind of hard case (and tourists always think I will get them drugs). Oh well.
Had to go over to YouTube to get you all a clip…
The famous kiss between Tracy and Julie Kavner…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu-nl7TjY-A
One of my favorites – made me cry the first time I saw it.
Homolicious? You can read minds?!?
softail: lol!
Though I do know any number of selfish, self-absorbed, angry, whiny gay folks, the process you describe does also frequently happen. Different people do different things with adversity, I guess.
I’m glad to read what you wrote about humor; I love to laugh.
The best doctor I ever had kept me laughing throughout a procedure.
I do love the playfulness here. We have the serious issues and they’re not downplayed, but there’s a good balance.
**OT**
Nice write of Jerry McNerney, the Democratic congressman-elect from Pleasanton who beat Pombo in the SF Chronicle:
from the article:
The article is titled:
‘Mr. Smith’ home from Washington
Congressman-elect already looking toward next run in ‘08
Back on topic, I agree that intent is primarily what I look at. Also, if it really really funny is another thing – humor can be used to say things that otherwise could not normally be said.
whoops, not Dominican, Honduran (from Wikipedia): Carlos Mencia was born the seventeenth of eighteen children in San Pedro Sula, Honduras. His father, Roberto Holness, is from Honduras, and his mother, Magdalena Mencia, is from Mexico.
Here goes:
I’m the typical nerdy computer programmer and Dilbert goes along way to describing a huge part of my world. I think like a programmer and act like one as well. I’m such a geek that my boss wants me to be the ‘goto person’ for when questions arise on how something works on the existing nursing system when building the new one takes place. (eg, you must have a value of x for field y in order to have program w to execute and the meaning of the fields and values are so and so.)
My Mom thinks, quite often, that I should have been born male because I have many of the typical ‘male’ interests in reading, movies, music, math, science, etc. When I’m acting particularly ‘malish’ she calls me Christopher. But, trust me, I’m definitely female!! And it’s so much fun to set guys off balance when I can hold my own in a ‘male’ conversation.
I think I could also be labeled a nerd in general. Why, because I have interests in lots of thing, know a little about lots of different things, and enjoy learning about them. I don’t mind that lable. I think it may be better than eccentric becuase that word is also used to call someone not entirely mentally stable.
jexter @
21
Are you sure it doesn’t have something to do with lactose tolerance instead?
Nice post Pach
Re: Time’s Person of the Year. Is it just me, or was this choice breathtaking in its cowardice? There’s an unpopular war going on in Iraq, the people just tossed out the leadership of both houses of Congress, the Palestinians are on the brink of a civil war of their own, and the monomaniacal president of Iran is running a Holocaust-denial conference. And the best Time could do was “You”?
My eight-year-old daughter says she’s an Irish Jewish Viking.
Oh lord, is she right. Her mother and I have to figure out whether she’s a banshee, a berserker or just kvetching.
What labels do you use to identify yourself? What do these words mean to you? In what ways do you think people often misunderstand you based on their presumptions about your identity? What kinds of irreverent or politically incorrect humor related to your group feel okay to you, and which kinds don’t?
a) straight white male (does that make me a minority here?) And a pretty decent human being.
b) what do these words mean to me? Nothing that I can think of. I mean, it’s not like I earned it, deserved it, or have done anything spectacular.
b) I’ve just come back to Indianapolis after a self-exiled 6 years in the real back-woods of Indiana. (long story) During my first days back here – I saw two openly gay couples holding hands. All I felt was “thank god I’m back to civilization”! (and yeah I’m way straight – still made me happy) Maybe I look too straight, which engenders – … oh hell, I don’t care.
c) I don’t enjoy humor or sitcoms which depend on their laughs on the misfortune, or discomfort, of others. (I never liked Seinfeld, or Ray Romano, etc.)
Identity is so very fluid. At least it is for me. When my neighbors first met me they thought I would be one of them. Republican, Religious, Certain. But I am none of those things. What am I? Who am I? Progressive, poor, uncertain, mother, artist, designer (out of necessity), wife, ex-New Orleanian/ Californian, sensual/frozen, walker, breather. I really don’t know where to start or stop. I know what I am not better than what I am. This is okay cause then I can be anything at any given time. Sometimes I say I am a left handed, southern, scorpio and people start to back away slowly.This always makes me happy. I am also a little bit evil. Don’t tell anyone.
Frank Probst @ 28
Re: Time’s Person of the Year. Is it just me, or was this choice breathtaking in its cowardice? There’s an unpopular war going on in Iraq, the people just tossed out the leadership of both houses of Congress, the Palestinians are on the brink of a civil war of their own, and the monomaniacal president of Iran is running a Holocaust-denial conference. And the best Time could do was “You”?
Well – I think that the “You” could easily be interpreted to be “Us”. Those of us who’ve paid attention, brought about a change, got out and worked for candidates, contributed, etc.
I obviously haven’t seen the article, but did we just get made “Person of the Year”?
Kelvin: cute video. Sweet. I never saw that.
jayt: I know a lot of straight folks who find the presence of gay folks a mark of civilization.
Mary: It is fluid. Identities are a social construct, but they are the ones we chose. They have limits and advantages, but of course we all have many, and some of them “contradict,” at least, from others’ perspectives. Thanks for that. BTW, I’m not sure if you and I have chatted before. If not, welcome!
BTW, every time I see the Mudbone clip, I marvel at Pryor’s fearless brilliance in that bit. Here he was, using one of his own chatacters to read himself out, in part, but also to playfully offer and say something larger about the human condition. Unreal improvisation.
Thanks,I have been around since the beginning. Just quips until a few weeks ago.
Hmmm…. Let’s see. I’m gay, but not from the stereotypical side of the family (heck, I just learned that brown shoes and a black belt are a fashion no-no!). I coached baseball, soccer, swimming and wrestling for many many years. I love sports (go Patriots!). I bicycle hundreds of miles a month. And you know, it used to be that I wasn’t overly fond of the stereotype side of my homolicious family. Something changed in me as I grew older and now, I have many friends from that pursuasion. And a funny thing has happened; I am losing patience with those gay friends of mine who look down upon the more feminine members of the tribe.
So, who am I? I’m part gay, part sports fanatic, part techno-geek, part bicycling geek, part political junky, and… Well, the parts just keep accumulating throughout my life.
And I appreciate Mencia for doing the job; he mocks the bigots by using their weapons in a humorous, not hateful way.
I think the whole soy product controversy is probably indicative of who I am today. In the past, that kind of trash would have pissed me off. Nowadays I find the humor in it and have sent the link out to all my friends so they can laugh, too.
I think we have found the weapon with which to fight the bigots out there. We laugh at them and their efforts. It’s much more fulfilling than getting angry.
I had a T-shirt made by neighborhoodies.com that I wear. It says “your impression is oppressive.”
Deconstructionist humour.
Oh, a little while ago I heard my partner maniacally laughing upstairs. I asked him what he was up to. He was watching this clip:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NMVxhQmMI8o
It’s of a Japanese professional wrestler whose role is to play a gay wrestler character. The actual person is straight. What does the character do to his fallen foes? He pushes his crotch into their faces.
Is this offensive? Should it be? He thinks it’s quite funny. I think it’s cheesy funny, too. You be the judge.
LowerManhattanite does a great MudBone – shows up occasionally at Driftglass.com, in the comments
http://driftglass.blogspot.com…..ng-to.html
I often feel uncomfortable when I hear people making jokes about “their own kind,” whether that be blacks, Jews, gay people or whatever. One example would be blacks who refer to themselves or other blacks by using the N word in a joking manner, something I refuse to do.
Is it OK to think a racial or ethnic or gender-oriented or sexual preference-based joke is funny, if it’s told by a member of such a group,or should I feel guilty if I do? Does the fact that some people of that group think it’s funny outweigh the feelings of those who don’t?
Is it OK for me to repeat on the jokes to others, not having the status of those who I heard make them? Are there lines, on one side of which it is OK to laugh but beyond which it is not? These are questions that I ask myself.
How do some of you resolve them?
By the way I am a middle-aged white guy.
Also straight, if that makes any difference.
Sometimes I tell jokes about other groups that I shouldn’t to my friends. Like I said, I can sometimes be a little bit evil.
What labels do you use to identify yourself?
I tend not to use any. In my neck of the woods, it’s not advisable, given my opinions. :)
In what ways do you think people often misunderstand you based on their presumptions about your identity?
I’ve found such stereotyping typical occupationally. I’ve had to fight to get technical jobs that I was otherwise qualified to do because my degrees were in the humanities. There’s a definite pigeonholing that happens in the working world, and it’s bad enough that I’ve had to lie about my education (substantially downplaying it), at times, to get a job.
What kinds of irreverent or politically incorrect humor related to your group feel okay to you, and which kinds don’t?
Umm, I think English majors are tolerant of just about anything, including, “do you want fries with that?” :)
How important is it for someone making a politically incorrect joke about a given group to have legitimacy as a member of that group?
As you say, it’s all about intent, which is not so easily determined. I would guess that the jokes Walter Williams might tell about blacks would be quite different–and with much different intent–than the ones Richard Pryor told. The subtext and context are the distinguishing features, I would guess.
neuro:
I can share what I believe.
I believe that, since we all come from planet earth, we are raised in societies that include and inculcate bigotry. We all have it in us. The most enlightened, sensitized, evolved person will think or even blurt out a racist epithet when cut off in traffic (or sexist, or name your category).
That’s why, when some people make a great habit of policing the borders of speech and humor over stuff like this, many of them come across to me as, at best, lacking in self-awareness. Taking a position of moral superiority or purity on this kind of stuff is easy, but it’s not entirely honest. This is not to say that people should not be challenged, but it’s all a matter of balance, especially when it comes to humor, or attempts at humor.
This “bad” stuff is funny precisely because we can recognize aspects of ourselves and our own minds in all kinds of terrible, horrible thoughts. But, is the expression funny, or is it just vented hate? Is it, as Jane says, intended to oppress or victimize, or is it intended to broaden the human experience somehow from the particular to the universal?
I think Democrats in particular have a hard time with this. There’s a reason the last generation has often liked Republicans more than Democrats. For a long time, Republicans allowed themselves more freedom of expression, even taboo expression, with relish and vigor. Yes, they were and are racist and hateful, but for a long time, they were the only irreverent game in town.
People respected that authenticity, and in some fasion it was more attractive than the bloodless, passionless, convictionless drivel coming from Democrats whipped into submission by every interest group to such a degree that no one could be. . . funny.
Well, at least in the progressive roots, we’ve taken funny back. I hope we don’t lose it. I hope we don’t ever think that being successful means being as sawdust boring as, say, Evan Bayh, who, if he ever had a spontaneous, irreverent bone, buried it long ago under focus group tested policy prose. Ick.
Humor, by its nature, places pain in a new perspective, allowing the one experiencing trauma to transcend it and gain power over it. Tribalism and identity wars are exceedingly destructive things, but humor can provide a pathway toward some escape, as long as it’s the right kind of humor: humor that helps transcend tribal categories to bring the experience of victimization into a common, human context.
Some of the times I’ve laughed hardest have been when I’ve gotten through to the other side of some very dangerous, painful or strange situation with a person or people with whom I shared little in terms of beliefs, ethnicity or cultural background. We survived – laughed together, and thereby got much, much closer. You’re very right about retention of a viable sense of humor being a sign of sanity.
Humor, empathy – why I like this place. Oh, yeah – and awesome writing. Great post, Pach.
This guy oughta know:
Sounds like little’s changing in the world of the stubborn or stalwart.
Monrag says
In what ways do you think people often misunderstand you based on their presumptions about your identity?
“I’ve found such stereotyping typical occupationally. I’ve had to fight to get technical jobs that I was otherwise qualified to do because my degrees were in the humanities. There’s a definite pigeonholing that happens in the working world, and it’s bad enough that I’ve had to lie about my education (substantially downplaying it), at times, to get a job.”
Boy do I run into that. I am 57 and a fine art major. But I make my living on the computer mostly doing Flash. I have been doing that for ten years. When I go to a job interview or freelance I have had people actually stand there with their mouth’s wide open. My husband is older and has the same problem. What are ya gona do? We have actually thought about having someone much younger go out and pitch our work.
artist, thoughtful, quiet, a watcher, believer in justice, disliker of loud things (people, movies, motors, chain saws) admirer of intelligence and articulateness, good writing moves me to tears, good manners always soften me up ( I was once on the same plane with Ronald Reagan back when he was campaigning for CA governor and he told his people to step back and let me go first) and like everyone here, I am against this horrible war and everyone who backs it.
Patrick 4/4 @
29
Wonderful! I’m going to plagiarize “Jewish Viking” to describe my three year old son, who we’ve previously referred to as our “Scandinavian Jew.” It will come in handy the next time he pillages the living room.
I’m not surprised that your daughter has both a strong sense of identity and a wicked sense of humor!
Patrick 4/4 @ 29
When she grows up, she’s going to get drunk and neurotic and invade England.
jayt @
32
Well – I think that the “You” could easily be interpreted to be “Us”. Those of us who’ve paid attention, brought about a change, got out and worked for candidates, contributed, etc.
I obviously haven’t seen the article, but did we just get made “Person of the Year”?
Daddybrain was watching a CNN special on choosing the Time Person of the Year and I peeking in occasionally. They went through all their choices, from the negative – Rummy, Bush, Cheney – to the sublime – Rummy, Bush and Cheney as the Axis of Arrogance, doncha love it. Saddam got some nominations, Al Gore too.
In the end, they went with the gimmick. The cover contains a piece of mylar in which you literally see yourself when you look. I do agree, however, with their conclusion that we – you and you and you and me – in other words, the true grassroots, we the peeps, made history in the midterms with our new town square, the internets.
Humor places many things in a new perspective. It is amazing how saying something funny about the subject under discussion, or something related, can reset the mind so we can work on the problem afresh.
This is not just repeating bond salesman jokes, or old Bob Hope routines, but inventing something on the fly. But it is not improv, either. It is like a different way of conceptualizing things, like a multi-dimensional pun.
When it works, I think the speaker moves outside the pc limits, and membership in the group becomes less important. The important thing becomes the new way to see things.
Maybe someone can say this better, I know I am not the only person who does this.
Alton@ 49: That is a lovely compliment. Thank you.
Turnabout is fair play.
Mommybrain says
December 16th, 2006 at 10:09 pm*
In the end, they went with the gimmick in lieu of substance. The cover contains a piece of mylar in which you literally see yourself when you look.
Oh well, yuck. I’m obviously too optimistic.
Pachacutec @ 44
I think we always had funny. We simply didn’t have an easy outlet for it, prior to the “internets.” Barry Crimmins was funny as hell doing Nixon schtick thirty years ago. But, let’s face it, we’ve got some real wooden guys on the Dem side. They smile really well for the cameras (especially ol’ Teefs & Tufts Biden), but they couldn’t get off a real side-splitter if they tried–witness Kerry bobbling a mediocre punchline. But, we ought to be trying to encourage Dems in general to the kind of quick wit that Ann Richards had.
But, I don’t think it’s acquired. That sort of humor is innately felt. The real crime is in suppressing it out of some false modesty, as you suggest.
Gay Irish Viking. Intellectual. Creative. (Seeks brown-skinned, deep-voiced Rock Steady Man for dating, possible LTR…)
Um, it annoys me when people think I am supposed to be less intelligent, more silly, and more interested in celebrities and fashion than I am because I’m gay. Or that I’m supposed to like Madonna.
What kinds of irreverent or politically incorrect humor related to your group feel okay to you, and which kinds don’t?
I would have to deal with that on a case by case basis. If it’s honestly funny, I can tolerate a pretty fair amount of coarseness. (Whoda thunk?) But if it’s just stupid and offensive, then it bothers me.
How important is it for someone making a politically incorrect joke about a given group to have legitimacy as a member of that group?
Not especially. If it’s funny, it doesn’t matter who says it. The problem with entertainers like Andrew Dice Clay and Ann Coulter is that they aren’t actually funny, just coarse and mean-spirited.
Eliciting actual belly-laughs goes a long way. For further information see Robin Williams in “The Birdcage”.
Good topic. Maybe it will come up again some time when I’m not so sleepy. Back during the Dean campaign, in response to the “Club for Growth” attack ads hubby and I described ourselves as “Small business-owning, pixel-pushing, web-designing, interfaith, interracial, progressive parenting Dean supporters.”
But the truth is, labels are a challenge for me. I don’t find many that I can embrace wholeheartedly.
Mommybrain @ 51
Daddybrain was watching a CNN special on choosing the Time Person of the Year and I peeking in occasionally. They went through all their choices, from the negative – Rummy, Bush, Cheney – to the sublime – Rummy, Bush and Cheney as the Axis of Arrogance, doncha love it. Saddam got some nominations, Al Gore too.
In the end, they went with the gimmick. The cover contains a piece of mylar in which you literally see yourself when you look. I do agree, however, with their conclusion that we – you and you and you and me – in other words, the true grassroots, we the peeps, made history in the midterms with our new town square, the internets.
And somebody got paid for that? I’m obviously in the wrong business….
(ed note – how cool would it to be known as “Daddybrain”?
A few years back I had to shave my head for a play I was in (not that I have that much to shave). At various functions at my son’s school, my sudden shaved head, plus my already skinny physique, led to expressions that told me immediately everyone now clearly considered me Chemo Guy.
This was now my identity. Eyes were averted, voices lowered. My son was no doubt pitied and fussed over.
Me – I was just happy to play a part for which I had too much hair for once.
*xyz @
12
Well, I have a new job and have been extremely busy. Still lurking every day.
However, I must say, in my own personal paranoia, the media / government ( I no longer draw lines) has realized our power, and through its’ mouthpiece, is now funding groups to study us, as well as, the trends associated with “us” so that their attempts at “marketing” may be more effective.
Will pop in when I can.
EvilDrPuma @
50
A fine old tradition. Hell, prior to modern times england was everyone’s bitch. Let’s see, Romans,Picts,Danes and Normans. I’m sure there are a few more that I’ve forgotten.
“All Those Brainstorming Sessions, and This Is What They Came Up With?
I’ve heard of pandering to the reader but this is ridiculous.”
James Wolcott
Helpless Dancer @ 61
Angles. And, um, Thatcherites.
White. Boomer. Female. Heterosexual. Single. Navy brat. Born in the South.
When I was five or six, walking beside my mother in the small and pretty town where I was born, I saw two white men sitting on a bench spit in the direction of a little black girl skipping along the sidewalk. That was also the first time I can remember hearing the N-word, but I knew from their tone that it was ugly.
Ever since that afternoon, I have been intolerant (to a fault, I suppose) of bigots. How can any decent person condemn, persecute, or oppress another person on account of something beyond choice or control?
Back when I was pursuing an academic career, I was rejected again and again (in spite of my credentials and recommendations) on account of being female and single. Apparently I was a poor investment because I’d wind up getting married, having kids, and abandoning the graves of academe. Whenever I was offered a position, the salary was far less than the standard for my male counterparts. “The men have to provide for their families,” I was told.
To his credit, the Harvard recruiter was perfectly straightforward after interviewing me. He said that if I were black as well as female, he’d hire me in a flash. Two “tokens” for the cut-rate price of one.
That was years ago. But clearly, society remains infected with bigotry against racial minorities, gays, women, immigrants, the poor, the disabled, the short, the fat, the unattractive, the unlucky, et. al.
As for me, I never met a bigot I liked or respected.
i like that: “graves of academe …..”
I’m very late to the party, but great post Pach.
I have a hard time talking about my identity because frankly I’m a privileged white straight male. I’m Jewish, but completely secular. I was a bit of a jock in college, but also a philosopher major. I did my thesis on Heidegger’s phenomenological ontology as a philosophy of language, while training to be a body builder (long story, but both projects fell to the side following a major injury).
I guess one thing I’d say about myself is that I resist simple definitions, but I don’t think that makes me unique. Reading this thread it’s clear that labels don’t contain who we are.
Now I’d define myself not as who I am, but what I do. I am finally accepting the fact that I am a writer, now having blogged for about two years. I’m an activist, both for progressive politics and Tibetan independence. I aspire to be an organizer. These things define me, I think, more than any fact that I’ve had no control over, like my parents’ skin color or my sexual orientation. But then again, I’m saying that from a position of profound privilege, so maybe I’m wrong…
If anyone here is still awake, here’s somthing that will make sure you have trouble dropping off. Just goes to show that in certain types of work mandatory overtime is just not a good idea.
http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/160480
very thoughtful and though-provoking post, Pach. I’ll mull it over for a bit.
Also, another identity that i struggle with is where I’m from. I was born in Brooklyn and grew up in Manhattan. My family moved to Connecticut when I was 12. I’ve always considered myself a New Yorker, until Ned Lamont ran for senate and I recognized that the state that I’ve called home for half my life is where I’m really from. Now I say I’m from Connecticut; thanks Ned.
In what ways do you think people often misunderstand you based on their presumptions about your identity?
I chose this particular question because I’m only part of a ‘group’ in that I participate in online discussions as part of a greater community. As Paul simon wrote, “I’m not the kind of man who tends to socialize.” In the brick and mortar world, I’m rarely away from my wife for more than four hours at a time.
Back during Howard Dean’s presidential run, I really thought that if my songs “Kerry’s Lament” and “The Vermontster Mash” had gotten some air time in Iowa, perhaps on college radio or Morning Drive, it could have made a difference. But I wasn’t high up enough on the media ladder to make it happen.
What is most misunderstood? That it ain’t about me. There is a major human transformation that’s about to happen on a global scale. The End of Civilization As We Know It isn’t a catastrophy, but an Awakening.
In Blogtopia, I think the thing I understand least is that only 1/3 of the folks who come to the page where my Christmas Card is posted actually open The Gift. After all it snatches Christmas away from the Christianists, a goal most folks in progressive blogdom embrace. It also happens to be probably the best Holiday story since “Miracle on 34th Street.”
And with a little luck I’m gonna stomp Jerry Fallwell’s ass with it.
Hello.
I’ve been reading FDL for a few months now and I worked on Mind of Mencia. It was nice to see the two combined in such a wonderful article.
Thank you.
Matt Browner-Hamlin @ 66
I think the privilege of white male-ness gives people so afflicted (me too) room to define themselves. People who labor under imposed perceptions of their “minority” identities (gender, race, color, sexuality) have to counter, undo, deflate, demolish or embrace the those perceptions before they can create their own individual identity. That, I think, is the privilege of the majority, or at least, dominant culture.
CatelynK @
64
at the risk of betraying an anti-bigot bigotry, I don’t think one can be too intolerant of bigots.
punaise @ 68
I’m Martin Mull-ing it over. :)
What is it about empathy? Something in the water here at the lake? If it is some element in the water, it has a powerful valence and it is magnetic in a way I will not pretend to understand. But I notice a similarity in the folk who gravitate here, too.
We all type on keyboards, obviously. And a certain amount of communication is expected to be lost when reducing the spoken word to mere type; but the people here are constantly seeking ways to overcome that and communicate with each other. Whether it is silly emoticons , puns, wordplay, association games, links, shared experience or just the overriding concern that things are going exceptionally wrong with the American government; the people here seem to have this innate sense of what is valid and worth communicating to each other. Perhaps that is why community and communication have the same root.
It is fun to hear from the lurkers and that feeling is reinforced with their comments. There is a strange collection of people all over the united states (and beyond) connecting to this internet site from living rooms and work places, dens and bedrooms, and sharing experiences and concerns at the speed of routers. It is empathy — or at least a potential for empathy — on a magnificent scale. And isn’t it glorious fun, too? Even when the truths are hard ones and the possibilities for solutions are dire, isn’t it made better by sharing in a common empathetic thread.
And words, do they do it all? I will describe myself as a hopeless romantic. I don’t believe in much, but I have hopes that there is much to believe in because the alternative is such an unromantic story. I work with technology and people assume I can fix their computers, and I usually can but I try not to let that get around (everyone fries a motherboard at least once in their life and I can sympathize with that, but I don’t want to empathize with every acquaintance who can’t locate an IDE cable). I’ve never been called a nerd, but frequently I’ve been referred to as an insufferable know it all, and that’s more than accurate, but I don’t like to think words matter so much even when they have a certain accuracy. Words only convey a bit of empathy, the rest is some strange connection through the ether and maybe words are a germ but the communal connection is brought to fruition through some magical process — imagination and esp and instantaneous story telling from one’s super ego to one’s id — something like that…it’s magic!
When words are used to be harmful, it isn’t the word so much as the intent of the person using the word and the way it is received by the person hearing it. Something I cannot know or empathize with (but can struggle to understand) is the response some people have to words that denigrate them strongly — and might have involve physical violence. I’ve never been a fag or queer and I’ve never heard the word cunt screamed at me as I was repeatedly pummeled; but I’ve read people here bring personal experiences to light and I can’t say it makes me feel good, but I like to think I am on the way to being more whole, having been given that opportunity to empathize.
Reading and vicariously experiencing and empathizing here at firedoglake is a true challenge. I would like to think I’m up to the challenge. It is the challenge of life itself, after all, and if that journey does not travel down a path of empathy then it can never end in a state of wisdom. This is a good place to practice walking that path. And I don’t know that there is a better statement you can make about any place, any where.
punaise @ 73
I’m pretty intolerant of Big Hats, too.
http://pogo.org/p/homeland/hl-061201-bodman.html
Wow. The fallout range from that would be like, 20 million lives lost. Isn’t that like, all of Texas? I sure hope this isn’t due to lack of experience and piss-poor oversight on the Bush cronies part.
Lesse. What society tends to see is a single, intelligent and fairly nice mixed race girl. Adopted by a caucasian family. So the racial idiocy? Um no. Not in this lifetime or the next.
That’s how other poeple to see me. I otherwise, identify myself as a girlgeek. I’m 29 and have time to pursue so much. I don’t need to find a husband right away, not when i can still complete school. And i’m about to end up with two degrees. One in the sciences and one in the arts. But it combines my workaday job, and the second one contains my driving passion. Music and sound. I read voraciously. Prefer satire so the wit around here has me grinning constantly.
I do disagree with the idea that if i look even mildly black, that i’m expected to speak in ebonics. And if i don’t? I’m a ’sellout’ or something. Drives me batty. Because i’m more prone to fall back on english slang to swear than i am to use others. My family has more roots to england than they do here in some ways. I had a set of godparents from Liverpool, for god’s sake! I don’t listen to the music they want, or read the books that they’d expect. Oh yeah. and i’m not on the market for a husband. Sorry, not in the cards right now. heh.
So mostly, i go about happily, destroying stereotypes by breathing. The regulars at the pharmacy i work don’t care, nor my co-workers. We’re all happy so who’s stupid in the long run? *evil grin*
Patrick 4/4 @ 72
Then again, belonging to the dominant social group(white male) can encourage never really thinking about identity. A comfortable position and why queston it? The non-questioning acceptance of such a position can lead to things like bigotry and racism. Introspection does not come readily to comfortable people.
Helpless Dancer @ 78
Absolutely. Gilded cages.
since i was a kid i often viewed myself as an outsider. i’m not sure i’ve figured out why. i was born in the south and finished college and worked there until i was thirty-eight. after fourteen years in the midwest i’ve lived in russia, england, venezuela, michigan, sudan, oregon and, now, germany. i’m a coyote of sorts, i.e., i identify with that animal.
i’m a father and a grandfather.
a vagabond aesthete.
what sam peckinpah said: “i’m a lesbian trapped in the body of a man.”
i’m a minority of one.
a southern democrat who rubbed elbows with some of the southern christian leadership council.
my personal experience with prejudice is related to having gotten “old”. it can be pretty exclusionary both in the workplace and socially for we of a certain age. patience and persistence has often paid off for me, so i feel fortunate.
humor about any group or culture is best left to card-carrying members. others may do it successfully but it’s so easy to do it wrong.
p.s. pach: another great post. and “hard gay” japanese wrestler is hilarious. i even cued up some more.
My next identity will be the guy sleeping a little bit west of the gorgeous Jewish girl I’m married to.
Good night all.
aliasofwestgate,
I grew up in New Mexico, and have lived in DC and now in Ohio. It has always bugged me that people don’t know, evidently, that New Mexico is a state. They always say, “So, where’d you learn to speak such good English?”
Scots-Irish Jewish Indian Russian etc. mix here (that I know of).
DeafByPills @ 76
Umm, probably not. Pantex is up in the Texas panhandle and the population density is not exceptional, and is just far enough away from Amarillo that a 1.2mT blast would probably only affect the outer suburbs. With prevailing winds, most of the fallout would wind up in OK and MO. Probably 1-2 million people would be affected.
Still, the point is well-taken. The object is to dismantle the weapons, not kill our own people with them.
Pantex has had more than its share of problems–included contaminated groundwater–in the past. This is just one more instance of unanticipated costs related to the nuclear weapons program.
And, what POGO does not say in this report is that the problems associated with disassembly are certainly due to lack of coordination with the military and lack of training on the part of personnel. Take it as fact that these weapons were regularly disassembled for inspection when in the possession of the military, down to the pit level, because the plutonium in them, in order to be stabilized for machining, had to be alloyed with gallium, which is quite corrosive.
Problems associated with disassembly are directly related to cost-cutting and failure to follow established procedures.
Patrick 4/4:
Helpless Dancer:
Pow! I was going to say that I don’t really have an identity / label other than that which is defined by my demographic: white middle-aged straight male.
Margot @ 82
Musing now at the moment about the “embassy” set up for New Mexico during the 1996 Olympics, and a particular letter from a US vendor at work which said that an order of hardware could not be sent to us in NM without the proper export paperwork… you’d think they’d notice that we have a ZIP code. :)
punaise @
85
Haven’t you figured it out by now, punaise? As a white, middle aged straight male, it’s really all about the car you drive.
pach,
r.e. your partnerPachacutec @
38
i just happen to be finishing up a book titled “pink samurai” by nicholas bornoff. it’s about japanese socio/sexual customs. i wonder if you or your partner have read it and what you might think of it.
montag,
I’d forgotten that!
I remember going from NM to Ohio, and people wouldn’t cash our traveler’s checks because they were drawn on Bank of New MExico. “We only take American money,” said the lady in Ft. Leonard Wood. lol
Comment…stuck in mod…used F Q and C words…apologies, but apropos…must sleep…out, here.
Mixing it up
Yo Pac –
I’m willing to bet Carlos Mencia is himself an example of “mixed identities”.
Mencia’s father’s surname, “Holnes” happens to be a family name in my ancestry, too. The Holneses were (are?) a family of mixed European and African ancestry in the West Indies. Many tens of thousands of West Indians have migrated over the past 100 or so years to Central America, Mexico, and all over the Carribean Basin, including Honduras. (The biggest push came with the building of the Panama canal.)
Holnes (sometimes spelled Holness) is such an uncommon name, I’d be willing to bet serious money that Mencia’s father is a decendant of the clan.
Certainly, in any part of the West Indies, Mencia would be recognized from his appearance as having some African ancestry, however distant. And as shocking as this idea might be to many Americans (and for all I know, many Mexicans, too), again, I’d be willing to put serious money on it.
(Of course, his African roots may come from his mother’s side as well, or instead, but the Holnes connection is the one that grabbed my attention.)
All of which is only relevant because it’s a wonderful, serendipitous re-inforcement of your (and Mencia’s) theme, that who we are is far more complex than the labels that society gives us, and far more complex than even those labels that we choose to “wear” for public consumption.
Hope you’ll revisit this topic soon. But it’s late, and I’m sleepy and I’ll have to leave that fascinating topic for another time.
Thanks for getting the discussion going.
Margot @ 88
In truth, New Mexico isn’t (or wasn’t) the only state in that predicament. When I got out of the army in 1970, I luckily got a last-minute promotion which allowed me to ship my car back to the mainland from Hawaii at government expense. I drove all over the country, but when I was on my way from Michigan to Massachusetts, I decided to cut through Canada to save some time. Somewhere in the midst of that shortcut, I yanked the muffler off the car on a frost-heave in the pavement.
So, I approached the customs station at Niagara Falls with some trepidation about the noise the car was making. Little did I know that the customs agent had failed US geography in high school. He saw the Hawaii plates and told me that I could not bring the car in from overseas without the proper import papers. “Uh, Hawaii is a state in the United States.”
“No, it’s not–it’s a foreign country.”
Etc., etc. This went on for about twenty minutes and the disagreement went on until it devolved into contradiction–”yes, it is.” “No, it’s not.” I’d showed him my discharge papers listing my home, my insurance papers, my title, everything. No good–at every point, he explained his theory about how I was attempting to defraud the government of import duties (without somehow coming to terms with how I managed to drive the car across the Pacific Ocean).
I never would have gotten out of there, if I hadn’t remembered the magic words: “I want to speak to your supervisor.”
Works wonders.
What labels do you use to identify yourself? …
general lack of label, as per above. one significant qualifier: non-religious, verging on non-militant anti-religious, but it doesn’t define my day-to-day existence. it’s more of a background thing, and of course there are no visual cues for others. not a problem in the secular-humanist Bay Area, but I could see being uncomfortable elsewhere in the U.S.
In what ways do you think people often misunderstand you based on their presumptions about your identity?
closing the loop: I guess just the potential presumption that someone in my demographic might be indifferent to the plight of others who endure various hardships because of their identity/ies.
What kinds of … humor…feel okay to you,
irreverant, self-deprecating, sarcastic
and which kinds don’t?
mean, victimizing. Like TRex, I think it’s a case by case thing.
How important is it for someone making a politically incorrect joke about a given group to have legitimacy as a member of that group?
I like Dave Chappelle’s work
I’m with onefish bluefish…please address this topic again at a more awake time. What a great post and thread. Thanks Pach… and all you Good Folks doing the Good Work…whew, sleep tight everyone.
Semi-lurker here… I’ve commented a few times, but usually duck below, only to resurface yet again eons later.
What labels do you use to identify yourself?
Just like everyone else, lots of labels. Let’s start with some common ones: angry white [liberal] male. Narrow this down a bit… deaf white male. Again… over-educated, underemployed urban resident. Yet again… comparatively privileged global citizen.
Let’s switch tacks: straight married male. We could do the ethnic bit: Northwestern European mutt. Honestly, for every perspective/slant there is, we can all categorize and balkanize ourselves. But this plays into the kind of boxes pollsters love. Considering some of the larger issues we face (global warming, the end of the Oil Age, global overpopulation, a need for universal healthcare), it might be more helpful on a larger scale to work on issues that we all have in common and that we need to work for, rather than labelling ourselves and presenting ourselves in neat little packages as part of subgroups. On one level, our identity is tied to these subgroups, and rightly so. But on another level, we’re at a point in our global history where maybe it’s time to transcend some of that. But that’s just me talking…
What do these words mean to you?
Many things, and at the same time, nothing. Yet most people would see me as an average white male American citizen. But once the deafness is disclosed, usually that’s all the average person sees: Deaf. For unthinking people or people who can’t wrap their minds around that, that’s where it stops (unfortunately!). But is being deaf really what I’m all about? Is that all I should be? On one level, yes, I identify myself as deaf first, and my community is the culturally deaf community. But in other areas of my life, that’s not necessarily the first thing I am (which is why I understood what you were talking about Pachacutec– you’re gay, but it’s not the Alpha and Omega of your existence. There’s more than just sexual identity, just as there’s more than the otherness that is deafness.).
In what ways do you think people often misunderstand you based on their presumptions about your identity?
Big loaded questions. There’s lots of misunderstandings, misperceptions, and stereotypes. I’m deaf, so I must be a really great lipreader [yes and no]. I’m deaf, so I obviously sign [not so obvious– those of us who are culturally deaf and use ASL are a relatively small fraction of all people who are deaf or have some degree of hearing loss]. I’m deaf, so there’s no point in trying to converse with me, plus I probably wouldn’t understand anyway [BIG misstep if you assume that!]… and so on. Oh, yeah, another one: I’m deaf, so that means I know Braille, right? [If you actually think this, do not pass “Go”; do not collect $200!]
I think there’s a need for people to self-identify, to categorize themselves, to join in and stick around in their various subgroup, whether it’s based on class, sex, gender, race, religion, or any other of a hundred variants. These differences are what make us unique, but it’s when we share, when we attempt to understand each others’ uniqueness and celebrate the individuals we are as well as the collective us, whether in a large sense or within the various labels/groups, that’s when we move closer to achieving our potential as humans.
I think my time on the soapbox is up. Next!
What labels do you use to identify yourself?
Outwardly, to the community – As musician, artist, educator, environmentalist, community activist, coach.
What do these words mean to you?
I use them as they are commonly understood, so?
In what ways do you think people often misunderstand you based on their presumptions about your identity?
Not very often, and not in very many ways.
What kinds of irreverent or politically incorrect humor related to your group feel okay to you, and which kinds don’t?
I’m member of a lot of groups and none of them engage much in politically incorrect humor. I hear and tell a few mild anti-wing-nut jokes, but I tell some of them to friends on the right. Some of my religious friends won’t hear my anti-fungelical jokes.
How important is it for someone making a politically incorrect joke about a given group to have legitimacy as a member of that group?
Not very.
Buzzflash: Gore 08
LATimes: Cool – Edwards 08
DailyKos: Tauscher bans Bush pic from her site after 4 years
Local news ‘tease’ just a minute ago…
“Find out why Iraq’s president is asking Saddan’s former troops for help…”
——-
Didn’t exacltly crack me up, but ooohh the irony of that is just shocking and aw(e)ful, I think. (No mention yet about our prez plans on escalating our troops in the new way forward one last surge/one last shot/Lieberman-Mccain plan…)
helluva a blurb to wake up to. Sorry for offopic.
——-
semi-awake response would be ‘dissenter’ — per Brando in ‘The wild One’
Q:”What are you rebelling against?!”
A:”Whaddy got?”
montag @
55
Oh, now, really… It’s just not fair to put that into a serious discussion. I laughed until tears came, and I’m still howling… Brilliant, just brilliant. Well, that explains what I laugh at… Oh, and I’m not a team player, and I run with scissors.
Oh, yeah, here they are, today’s NYT columnists, dragged out from behind the firewall:
http://select.nytimes.com/2006…..amp;emc=th
Nicholas Kristof, “The Good Daughter, in a Brothel.”
http://select.nytimes.com/2006…..amp;emc=th
David Brooks, “This Age of Anxiety.”
http://select.nytimes.com/2006…..amp;emc=th
Frank Rich, “Mary Cheney’s Bundle of Joy.”
Morning All
pach. I hope you stay on the ICE roundups story. Those people will just disappear if someone doesn’t keep it in th epublic eye.
What an interesting and thoughtful post! Thanks, Pach!
Clever video. Carlos Mencia is creative and pertinent. And oh, that Mario Lopez is delicious!
Marion in Savannah @ 98 – Each day you’ve “dragged [columnists] out from behind the firewall”, yet when I click on the link I face the firewall. In what sense are they dragged out from behind it, or am I missing something (always possible at 4:45 am)?
Brilliant and elegant approach to sunshine
“At first, the innovation sounds simple enough: Representative-elect Kirsten Gillibrand has decided to post details of her work calendar on the Internet at the end of each day so constituents can tell what she is actually doing for their money.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12…..4thu3.html
note to admins
I am unable to edit my comments since ‘upgrading’ to IE7
Mornin’ Firedogs
Identity – SF, very early 80’s, commuting via Cable Car, 2 regular riders were gay men. One morning an absolutely stunning woman got on and rode with us a few stops. upon her departure Brad turned to Scott and said ” Oh to be a lesbian . .”
Marion in Savannah @ 98
I, too, am unable to browse your NYTimesSelect links.
(Not a member)
…
Comment edits still work in Firefox… Guess that will be my FirdDogLake browser for a while/
I have been on a search for my identity my entire life driven by the need to why I am the who I am. I can easily notice how I relate to others on various levels but I rarely feel that I “belong” to be part of a group. Inclusion by/in the group must have some importance to me, I guess, because it seems to hurt when it doesn’t happen. Younger years were worse, but now, not so much because I don’t define myself by a single identity.
The post and comments here are so insightful that I find parts in each that I relate to. I feel to be part of this group here at the lake but my rebel, windmill tilting determination for humanitarian equality forces any blog community to misidentify me as a threat. I’m identified incorrectly as a threat because the blog communities invariably have connections to a windmill of my attention. I have no desire to bring down, expose, reform, attack, avenge or hurt anyone and actually I am compassionate/empathetic to a fault. I seek and encourage balance by choice and free will.
I’m a 47 year old old Boomer age white guy that is both a direct descendent of a Revolutionary War participant and immigrants from Poland drawn over in the early 1900’s push for cheap labor. I think that my younger years of enduring the bigotry of stupid Polish jokes is likely the most underrated, unrecognized damaging form of identification hatred that alienated from social groups as a preservation. I am happy to embrace my own stupidity but it has nothing to do with my heritage.
I’m a father and have been a single parent, an excellent cook, nurturer, creative, artistic, musician that has been misidentified as gay on the basis of any or all of those characteristics. I’m not but the mislabeling is an insight to others’ thinking. I’m a recovering idealist and recovering alcoholic with moderation to the former and 11 years abstinence for the latter. I’m an adult child of alcoholics and chose to discover “why” I became the very thing that nearly also destroyed/took my life as a kid. I swore I never would let that happen to me, but it did. I was able to break that cycle for my kids’ lives but that’s just another identification here. I learned that I’m now an adult ADHD /bipolar person and have had that “disability” all along while having society label me in a variety of negatively reinforcing identities. The dysfunctionality of any family with alcoholism pales in comparison to the chaos that ensues when that delicate balance of codependence is tilted in recovery. I never thought I had a drinking problem even though those close to me thought I did :-) actually, it was a “stopping problem”.
I am self taught in an eclectic mix that all has harmony on a universal level of connectivity that leaves me outside of most others’ acceptance. I am nontraditional Christian that believes reincarnation is likely and that we are all one regardless of individuals’ choice of higher power or, as importantly, choice of none or other. It’s the compassionate acceptance of others that is the basis of faith. I lost a good marriage to the strict cult-like adherence by my wife’s choice to believe her fundamentalist Evangelical faith where there is no acceptance of my acceptance of others. I seek balance. Again, the identifiers that others, her church doctrine but not so much the great people who are members, labels my tolerance as a dealbreaker.
I am a carpenter, plumber, electrician, mason (heh,…no, not that kind) landscaper computer/technology geek and a long list of other trades that should have me also as successful if not for my innate ability to sabotage my own success for I can’t run a business without my bleeding heart keeping me poor. I need an agent or some collective partnership and I’m sure there are millions of us out here. I’m also an optimist.
Thanks again for the post. I missed many of the points I meant to address but I should stop now as I fear I’ve rambled too far as it is.
Petedownunder and Mack, I don’t know what to say about the links. Others here have said they can get to them. Maybe the techie/guru types may have an explanation??? I’m baffled.
Mack, when I was using IE editing comments was impossible, and someone here suggested I use Firefox. It’s a great browser, and editing works fine with it. (”Upgrade” to IE? An interesting concept… is there anything out there to “upgrade” to IE from?)
Marion in Savannah @ 108
The links work, that is they go the page where the column is, but it says you must be a member of Times Select to enter and actually read the column. Do other people get past the firewall without membership?
Great post Pach!
Only meant to stop in quick to see what was up. Sadly, as this is a working day for me (!), can’t add much more now . . . but I’ll be thinking about this all day long. Thanks!
OK, one little thing now:
Amen to your comments about Jane, Christy, and the commenters here!
As an official “reverend” let me close with this: “reverence” can be serious overrated. ;) That’s part of why I love to hang out here at the ‘Lake.
With that, I’ve got to go put on my collar and get to church . . .
…and a g’morning hallelujah arose from the quiet dude in the back row.
‘Morning, Firepups! Great post, Pach!!! It says (brilliantly) many things I’ve felt but have never been able to articulate effectively. Actually, that’s the reason why this is my favorite site. People keep saying things I would like to say, if only I could find the words. I am humbled and honored to be a member of this community.
petedownunder @ 109
I guess so… I’ve had folks thank me for posting the links, which led me to believe they were working…? I’ve been putting them out there for I guess about a month or two and you’re the first people I’ve seen comment that they can’t get to them. (Caveat: I do not read every comment in every thread!)
Ya, what you said.
This is the first time I skipped most of the comments to just butt in with mine.
The relationships we have had and the ones we enjoy now, our lovers, our children and our friends, are the only things we have.
As a long time lurker/voyeuer I worship you people. You really have made a difference.
You really all deserve “People of the Century”.
I think we/you may yet save the American Experiment.
I speak probably less Spanish than yourself Pach but you are one serious Hombre Grande. Thanks.
My hat is off my pitchfork is yours!
not at all. and some of us would sell a kidney to write so clearly and succinctly about ourselves and the stew that is our day to day lives
although our ‘life circumstances’ are different I identify with much of what you said – balance, optimism, our interconnectivity, and humor
I am pretty much Melanie Hamilton (where are you Ehrenstein ?!) in that I always see and tend to concentrate on the best in others – having lived almost 20 years with ADHD husband and sons, it’s rarely been a drag – I celebrate their multiple talents and skills and admire them for having got there in the face of a serious challenge and society’s constant tut-tutting them as ‘defective’
blessed days of laughter over my being the household mutant:)
and oh yeah, Pachacutec: Incan for MENSCH !
I am an army brat. That fact has had the most impact on me besides my gender.
cbl – thanks
Here we are entertaining delusions of grandeur while being called underachievers…yikes! :-)
It’s no wonder we can be such a mess. Thanks for loving those in your family during the fits of exasperation. It’s good to at least have an answer now for “just what in the hell is wrong with you?….’I don’t KNOW!”…not speaking of you (but it might apply) but the wonderful people I’ve known and inexplicably driven to near homicidal frustration….sweet compassionate ladies, garden club loyalists, kind humanitarians have wanted to “..just grab and shake me into getting with the program” …or at least be on time if I had to consistently multi-task projects to completion.
ha!…my only saving grace has been the good fortune of being somewhat likable.
Looseheadprop @ 100
Yes.
You may recall I was pushing this story pretty hard last winter. Interested that they did take the document off their website….
And why do they call it “End Game”? Brrr. Final Solution?
Derek Bartholomaus @
71
Wow: Thanks for that! Welcome. . . though you’ve been around a while.
fahrender:
No, we don’t know that book. When I read your question to my partner, he went on a “rant” of mock outrage:
I responded, “Well, aren’t you just a bucket of laughs.” Then he laughed. Which is all to say, sorry, we don’t know it.
Some of the most important lables I wear are (in no particular order) gay, recovering alcoholic, (very) left wing, and currenlty, law student. To some degree, I don’t fit neatly into any of those categories. I have a hairdresser friend who jokingly says if I didn’t sing, I’d be booted from the tribe. Among other members of AA (not breaking my anonymity here, as you may have guessed, gkar isn’t my real name)I don’t fit into the same spiritual mold that most of them do. In fact I like to say at meetings that my spiritual beliefs fall somewhere between buddhism and paganism not only because it’s true (which it is) but I truly enjoy the look of horror it brings to some of their faces. Although I’m about as left as one can get, I’m not doctrinaire. For example, while I believe in holding Israel accountable for its excesses, I also believe in holding the Palestinians (and the rest of the Arab world) accountable for theirs. That doesn’t sit well with those who myopically blame Israel for everything that’s gone wrong in the Middle East. Finally, among my fellow law students, well, let’s just say I’m somewhat more “mature” than most of them. (Chronologically speaking, that is). As to your question about politically incorrect humor, I think credibility has more to do with the intent behind the joke, than with the teller’s membership in a particular joke. (and I think that the intent is usually pretty apparent.) That said, I thought “Wetback Mountain” is one of the funniest youtubes I’ve seen in a long time. Ok, I’m done. A bit more wordy than is usual for me but then, going against type is typical of me.
Mr. Sandman @
95
I liked your time on the soapbox, I didn’t want it to be up. I heard you loud and clear.
The lurkers should delurk more often. It’s a welcome contribution that benefits us all.
Yup, and that’s how I knew you were gay.
Now, I have to explain here that while there are many straight guys who like and even practice blue humor, there is a certain sort of “bitchy” verve to what you do that I see only in women and in gay men.
How do I define “bitchy”? That’s hard. All I can really say at this point is that I know it when I see it, and that “bitchy” isn’t necessarily a bad thing to be. But I’ll hack away at a definition anyway:
To me, bitchiness is a sort of extreme (and usually extremely literate and well-informed) causticity, often cloaked in faux (or genuine) passive-aggressive behavior.
This last bit, the passive-aggressiveness (if it’s real and not a sarcastic put-on of fake subservience), is a signifier of when bitchy is bad: It means that you’re trying to avoid full ownership of what you said because you’re afraid of the consequences. So far, I haven’t seen you do that, no matter how loudly people have screeched at you.
So congratulations, P! You are a practitioner of Ethical Bitchiness! Go out there and knock ‘em dead, and always remember to use your powers for good!
Who wouldn’t do Mario Lopez?
“You know how I know you’re gay?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ASBjnXZpc
Shreik! Shriek! I’m offended. . .
.
.
.
NOT!
Two quotes I use as a code to live by:
1.”Once you label me, you negate me.” Kierkegaard
2. “Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes.” Walt Whitman
I think “bitchy” is also in the tone of voice, the inflection or lilt of meter, which does not come through in typed text. In person, I think people would probably classify my tone, when I get up to it, as something closer to “sardonic” or “ironic.” At home, I play more “Ricky” to my better half’s “Lucy.”
Oh. Lucy just dinged me for being “facetious” about my “adoration” of flokati. Flokati finds favor in our home. I’m irrelevant to design choices.
Mary McCurnin @
31
This was beautiful Mary, as one Protean shape shifter to another, let’s start a club.
My identifying labels? I was born in KY, my parents were white Republican Methodists, so that made me a WASP and a hillbilly, bad start. Born slightly before they dropped The Bomb on Hiroshima- does that make me a Boomer? Well, I know it makes me a geriatric. In college I became a drunk , a dropout, a draft-dodger, and a dirty fucking hippy. Marched with Martin Luther King, demonstrated against Vietnam, went to live in a commune in Colorado… you know the drill. I saw Lenny Bruce in NY in ‘63 and became devoted to the idea that intent is everything and that words are only the noises we make to signify it (sometimes not very accurately, unfortunately). Bruce was labeled obscene and sick when in fact he was a great moral force. So, that’s me, in the flesh- a genuine DFH! Proud of it! And fuck ya if ya can’t take a joke!
Frank Probst @
28
Not just you. Read Wolcott today.
I have two views on labels: sometimes they can be used for convienance, other times they can be used to limit and control. For example, if someone were to ask me, I’d say I’m gay. Why? It’s easier to explain it that way than to say “I’m almost always gay, but there are a few woman here and there who do it for me.” Then they just get confused and can’t fathom it – especially when I say I don’t identify as bisexual, beause the woman I’ve been attracted to and had intersts in were so few and far betweeen that bisexual, to me, doesn’t seem an accurate discription.
So, as a matter of convienance, I’m gay. But, when people just assume I have no interest in woman, it becomes a tool for limiting and controling who I can’t and can’t like – often from gay aquaintances and friends. And it also means, to some, that I’m girly and effeminate and effeminent – even if I enjoy the NFL as much as I do Johnny Weir dancing in a swan costume with extra sequences.