Comments on: Today’s Rationale? http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/ Firedoglake weblog Wed, 25 Nov 2009 07:00:40 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Ken Comer http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-421102 Ken Comer Sat, 16 Dec 2006 12:13:46 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-421102 <blockquote><p>I think the timing of the raid was wrong, however I do not think the raid was wrong. I feel very sorry for the children and for the people who are victims of identity theft but it does not change the fact that these illegal parents have knowingly placed their families in jeopardy.</p></blockquote> <p>Reality check: <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061213/us_nm/immigration_swift_usa_dc_8">There were a 65 identity thieves.</a> The rest of the 1300 might be illegal workers, but they might not. Homeland Security <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15220450/">does not have to prove anything about anything in order to put a non-citizen in jail</a> without access to an attorney. I’d wager that more than half of those picked up were not guilty of anything more than “working while being brown”–not even “being illegal workers.”</p> <blockquote><p>There was no compassion by Homeland Security in the timing of this raid, what the hell ever happen to “Good Will Towards Men”. While the timing was despicable, the enforcing of laws should not be dependent on how well it fits into the lives of the lawbreakers.</p></blockquote> <p>1. Why not? Although I readily admit that I could be wrong, I’d bet that at least some of those identity thieves did nothing more than get false documents showing them to be citizens or permanent residents when they were not, so that they could get a job that paid well (by their standards). If they were working at a meat packing plant, they obviously were not stealing tons of cash. What would it have hurt to do this on January 2?</p> <p>2. Again: being held incommunicado by Homeland Security does not imply guilt. The <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act_of_2006">assumption of innocence no longer applies</a> to non-citizens.</p> <blockquote><p>Swift knew well in advance of this raid and “laid off” over 400 people. Some just quit, the ones who remained were taking a terrible chance with their children and families.</p></blockquote> <p>Where are you getting that information? Yes, <a href="http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/121306dnnatswift.6f5bca2.html">Swift knew about the raid</a> in advance, but if you are talking about <a href="http://www.greeleytrib.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041212/NEWS/112120034&rs=3">the lay off scheduled for December 20</a>, it has not happened yet and is attributed to the loss of a contract.</p>

I think the timing of the raid was wrong, however I do not think the raid was wrong. I feel very sorry for the children and for the people who are victims of identity theft but it does not change the fact that these illegal parents have knowingly placed their families in jeopardy.

Reality check: There were a 65 identity thieves. The rest of the 1300 might be illegal workers, but they might not. Homeland Security does not have to prove anything about anything in order to put a non-citizen in jail without access to an attorney. I’d wager that more than half of those picked up were not guilty of anything more than “working while being brown”–not even “being illegal workers.”

There was no compassion by Homeland Security in the timing of this raid, what the hell ever happen to “Good Will Towards Men”. While the timing was despicable, the enforcing of laws should not be dependent on how well it fits into the lives of the lawbreakers.

1. Why not? Although I readily admit that I could be wrong, I’d bet that at least some of those identity thieves did nothing more than get false documents showing them to be citizens or permanent residents when they were not, so that they could get a job that paid well (by their standards). If they were working at a meat packing plant, they obviously were not stealing tons of cash. What would it have hurt to do this on January 2?

2. Again: being held incommunicado by Homeland Security does not imply guilt. The assumption of innocence no longer applies to non-citizens.

Swift knew well in advance of this raid and “laid off” over 400 people. Some just quit, the ones who remained were taking a terrible chance with their children and families.

Where are you getting that information? Yes, Swift knew about the raid in advance, but if you are talking about the lay off scheduled for December 20, it has not happened yet and is attributed to the loss of a contract.

]]> By: No W NOW http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-421090 No W NOW Sat, 16 Dec 2006 09:04:55 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-421090 <p>Here’s another story, also from Amarillo. A friend who has two daughters, ages 8 and 10 I think, had been divorced for about 5 years at the time this occured. Her ex-husband and father of the girls commited a fairly serious crime. She was private about the nature of his crime so I don’t know what he was accused of doing. He had not been convicted of any crime at this point, just indicted. He paid child supprt and was allowed visitation rights prior to arrest. After his arrest, CPS took her daughters away from her to protect them from their non-convicted father. He rarely saw the girls any way and she wouldn’t have let him take them after the indictment. It took her 4 months to get her children back. Luckily her parents were registered foster parents and allowed to take the girls in. Without that bit of luck however, this woman who is a wonderful loving mom would have not been allowed to see nor speak to her children for 4 months. They would have been sent to live with strangers. Her parents weren’t supposed to let her see the girls at all. They did, but it was illegal every time. All of this to “protect” the children. </p> <p>We have allowed our collective judgement to fail.</p> <p>She now has her children back and the ex was sent to jail for a very long time. A happy ending luckily. But for most anyone else in her situation this could have been the nightmare to end all nightmares. She didn’t do anything wrong. Most importantly, neither did her two wonderful little girls.</p> Here’s another story, also from Amarillo. A friend who has two daughters, ages 8 and 10 I think, had been divorced for about 5 years at the time this occured. Her ex-husband and father of the girls commited a fairly serious crime. She was private about the nature of his crime so I don’t know what he was accused of doing. He had not been convicted of any crime at this point, just indicted. He paid child supprt and was allowed visitation rights prior to arrest. After his arrest, CPS took her daughters away from her to protect them from their non-convicted father. He rarely saw the girls any way and she wouldn’t have let him take them after the indictment. It took her 4 months to get her children back. Luckily her parents were registered foster parents and allowed to take the girls in. Without that bit of luck however, this woman who is a wonderful loving mom would have not been allowed to see nor speak to her children for 4 months. They would have been sent to live with strangers. Her parents weren’t supposed to let her see the girls at all. They did, but it was illegal every time. All of this to “protect” the children.

We have allowed our collective judgement to fail.

She now has her children back and the ex was sent to jail for a very long time. A happy ending luckily. But for most anyone else in her situation this could have been the nightmare to end all nightmares. She didn’t do anything wrong. Most importantly, neither did her two wonderful little girls.

]]> By: Jeanne http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420888 Jeanne Sat, 16 Dec 2006 04:06:55 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420888 <p>The Bush administration taking on a leadership role again. Amazing. Where does the Bush administration think this is going to lead? Do they think the Latino community is going to take these terrorizing actions against their community sitting down? Has the administration looked at what’s going on in Latin America lately. Lots and lots of protests.</p> The Bush administration taking on a leadership role again. Amazing. Where does the Bush administration think this is going to lead? Do they think the Latino community is going to take these terrorizing actions against their community sitting down? Has the administration looked at what’s going on in Latin America lately. Lots and lots of protests.

]]> By: mdhatter http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420637 mdhatter Sat, 16 Dec 2006 01:17:20 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420637 <p>“with the consequences of being weaned against it’s will by governmental agents.”<br /> <b><br /> that is unacceptable in my country. </b></p> <p>Excuse me for swearing here, but “fcuk the police”.</p> “with the consequences of being weaned against it’s will by governmental agents.”

that is unacceptable in my country.

Excuse me for swearing here, but “fcuk the police”.

]]> By: Grandma M http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420603 Grandma M Sat, 16 Dec 2006 00:57:38 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420603 <p>This is nauseating!<br /> <br /> As to the 65 with fake ID’s Latina Lista has a really valid point. Colleges are crawling with fake ID’s. However they are extremely expensive. Students used to show me the ad’s in the NYT that advertise “assistance with US paperwork”. It is common knowledge that is code for fake ID’s. A good set runs between $15-$20 thousand. Michael Chertoff is from the NYC area - Am I supposed to believe he just got around to reading the ads in his home town newspaper after all these years and is now shocked! about identity theft?? Oh PUHleeze!</p> This is nauseating!

As to the 65 with fake ID’s Latina Lista has a really valid point. Colleges are crawling with fake ID’s. However they are extremely expensive. Students used to show me the ad’s in the NYT that advertise “assistance with US paperwork”. It is common knowledge that is code for fake ID’s. A good set runs between $15-$20 thousand. Michael Chertoff is from the NYC area – Am I supposed to believe he just got around to reading the ads in his home town newspaper after all these years and is now shocked! about identity theft?? Oh PUHleeze!

]]> By: groucho http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420566 groucho Sat, 16 Dec 2006 00:38:58 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420566 <p>oh thank you for writing this. this is so unthinkable, it really has me reeling. and i was feeling guilty about not being able to buy expensive christmas gifts for my grown children.<br /> i just hope all those ins, cops, and other “officials” have a nice, warm christmas.</p> oh thank you for writing this. this is so unthinkable, it really has me reeling. and i was feeling guilty about not being able to buy expensive christmas gifts for my grown children.
i just hope all those ins, cops, and other “officials” have a nice, warm christmas.

]]> By: jeff nalle http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420458 jeff nalle Fri, 15 Dec 2006 22:16:23 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420458 <p>Never mind.</p> Never mind.

]]> By: jeff nalle http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420454 jeff nalle Fri, 15 Dec 2006 22:15:49 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420454 <p>Or, what I really mean is that, if there were manatee meat to be gleaned from the bones of the deported workers, would we stand in the way of a new item at Sizzler’s salad bar?</p> Or, what I really mean is that, if there were manatee meat to be gleaned from the bones of the deported workers, would we stand in the way of a new item at Sizzler’s salad bar?

]]> By: jeff nalle http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420452 jeff nalle Fri, 15 Dec 2006 22:14:46 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420452 <p><a href="#comment-420451"><em>jeff nalle @<br /> 140 </em></a></p> <blockquote><p>Unbelievable! Why cant they just leave the manatees alone?!</p></blockquote> <p>I mean, if they were manatees, the government would do the same thing!</p> jeff nalle @
140

Unbelievable! Why cant they just leave the manatees alone?!

I mean, if they were manatees, the government would do the same thing!

]]> By: jeff nalle http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420451 jeff nalle Fri, 15 Dec 2006 22:13:04 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/15/todays-rationale/#comment-420451 <p>Unbelievable! Why cant they just leave the manatees alone?!</p> Unbelievable! Why cant they just leave the manatees alone?!

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