
You just cannot make this crap up:
Maybe you should put some blame on the parents? They knowingly engaged in criminal activity that they could be arrested and deported for at any time. They apparently didn’t care enough to think about what effect that would have on their children. In true liberal fashion, however, you expect the government to care more about children than their parents do.
And if they had done as you asked, no doubt you would be complaining about “THE GOVERNMENT SEIZING CHILDREN JUST BEFORE CHRISTMAS!!”
Let's take a moment to discuss selective legal enforcement and following proper procedures in law enforcement, shall we?
(1) Almost every state in the country has laws which specify requirements for the care of children who are caught up in legal enforcement situations wherein their parents are picked up on charges or in other legal enforcement situations (such as picked up and held indefinitely as a "material witness" say in a terrorism case by the Feds, wherein there is no other available adult supervision for the children, just as one example of many, many others). These laws — which are on the books and written specifically because the legislatures, the governors, the communities and the legal systems all agree are necessary — are put into place specifically because children are innocents who are not IN ANY WAY responsible for the actions of the adults around them — and ought to be guarded from harm.
In most states, the children's care and concern for their welfare is to be the TOP PRIORITY in the legal enforcement action. This is because — and any person who has dipped their toe into law enforcement, as a cop, a prosecutor, a defense attorney, whatever will tell you this — if the children are not properly cared for, they end up in the juvenile system and then on the rolls as adult criminals more often than not. Which leads to more expense for the government, more criminal activity in the community, and more long-term problems for everyone.
That wingnuts ignore this is idiocy. But there you are. Any person in law enforcement can tell you that intervention early in a child's life saves both money and manpower down the road — but it has to be done properly, with care and concern for the child, follow-up and a lot of oversight.
(2) The company involved in these raids — Swift — had multiple facilities in several states raided simultaneously. Is it just me, or does that say "pattern of illegal hiring practices of end-running immigration laws and skirting other legal enforcement issues in order to secure higher profits by paying very low wages to low-information workers"?
Has the company been charged with legal wrongdoing or any criminal charges whatsoever? Nope. Does this raise the ire of our wingnut friend? Nope. Hypocrisy much? Yep.
(3) Also, the DHS raided only the morning shift at these plants. Did they think the afternoon and evening shifts were filled with legal immigrant workers getting great salaries and benefits and having all their proper papers in order and such? OR did they think the daytime raids would make the news, that we'd all somehow miss the failure to enforce the same laws across the board for the afternoon and evening shifts…and that all of the various meatpacking plants could continue to exploit these low-wage, low-information workers who would keep right on working at these plants THAT ARE STILL OPERATING — and no doubt working on some new means to import illegal immigrant workers from Guatamala because, other than having a single shift distrupted, they have paid NO PENALTY WHATSOEVER.
And this is appropriate, selective legal enforcement because…? Word of advice to wingnut trollery — take your head out of your behind and realize that this raid was a showboat moment, which did not properly afford these people due process of law and, in several documented cases now, scooped up legal residents of the US. The Constitution is not some flimsy paper toy. People's lives and the lives of their children are not simply numbers that you crunch, or things that you parade in front of news cameras in handcuffs.
There are consequences and repercussions to these decisions that reach across entire family's lives. I know this — I have made decisions that have led to lifetime incarceration for criminal defendants and I do not think that any person should make those decisions lightly or without thought being given to the lives of the families involved on all sides of the issues involved.
And that is just a tiny sliver of the issues involved in all of this — but of course, it's easier to just blame "the brown people" for all of our nation's woes, now isn't it? Because then, no one has to question the Great and Powerful Limbaugh and his cheetoes eating toadies.
Related posts:
- Great Moments in False Equivalency
- Come Saturday Morning: Rhubarb, Rhubarb!
- Kennedy: “Have Some Positive Impact on People’s Lives”
- Late Night: The Babble Phlegm of the Wingnut Republic; OR, What’s a Half a Million or So, Give or Take?
- Health Care Alert! CDC Says New Virus Turns Republicans Into TakeOver Zombies!





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ReddHedd !!
Go Christy!
Go, Christy!
Troll beatdown in progress. As Atrios said, “there really is no use in debating them, because they are just so fucking stupid.” Or words to that effect.
Unless I am mistaken or things have changed, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors has directed our police department that it may NOT cooperate in raids like these. Not sure how that affects raids carried out in SF where human services, child protective, or other agencies’ expertise is required. The focus here has been on human trafficking for prostitution, not so much the meat-packing.
Wow, it must be Opposite Day at FDL when a wingnut commenter gets a front-page shout and refutation. Methinks former Prosecutor Smith’s really really really really upset about these ICE/Swift raids, and rightly so.
Family Values, my Aunt Fanny.
… oh, and:
Troops
Home
NOW
Once again,
MMMmmmmmmmmmm, smackdown goodness.
“cheetos eating toadies”
hee-hee !!!!!
booyah!
You’re right, Bustednuckles– tasty!
Teddy at 5 — that there was no concern whatsoever for the kids really pissed me off. Selective legal enforcement really pisses me off. And trying to pawn this off only on the parents, with no thought to the employers or the DHS who did not properly plan for the children’s well being? Well, THAT really pisses me off. It is not all that difficult to JUST DO YOUR FREAKING JOB. I know, I used to work 16 hours a day doing mine when I was a prosecutor — making certain that every last child was accounted for on cases where we disrupted families. Why? Because it was the right thing to do.
Jeebus, these idiots piss me off.
Anyone who could stand by and watch children suffer is not human. It doesn’t matter who’s to blame. It doesn’t matter what the parents “should have done”. It’s about frightened, lost children. And the government caused the situation, so…yeah…it’s up to the government to help those children.
If ya gotta feed a troll, do it with panache. Nice work, Christy!
At Making Light, a (probable) troll posted this one:
The problem is Rumsfeld never ordered anything. He renounced it when he found out in fact. And frankly the “atrocities” are pranks in comparison to real atrocities and violations. Most of these people would lop off your heads with one swipe if you were in their clutches. Just ask Michael Ware of TIME. Ah the peaceful idylic mesopotamia.
The (probable) troll is being sniped at. (I wonder what the source is for that statement about ‘most of these people’.)
Christy Hardin Smith @ 9
I never could have guessed. ;)
Commencing Operation Idoicy Revealed . . .
EvilDrPuma @
11
front page, with klieg lights and all.
Gee, I wonder if
Chertoff“American Hawk” will come back to debate Ms. Smith.Christy Hardin Smith @ 8
And the criminal cabal overlords get their minions to provide yet ANOTHER example of how government doesn’t work and should therefore be drowned in the bathtub, or New Orleans, or Iraq. */s
Oh, and the photo? Cracks me up.
I did try to find a picture of someone with a Cheetoe up their nose. Alas, to no avail…
Twisted Martini @
4
OK, now there’s milk coming out my nose…!
please issue spew warnings!
I’ll try this again, the power went out as I was finishing typing.
Anyone heard how Jane fared?
I dodged a bullet last night.
There are a bunch of old, tall willow trees right behind my motorhome, so I decided to go down to the Eagles club and play poker while the storm raged. Good thinking on my part.
I got home about eleven to find a big tree down right through my neibors trailer. Went through it like a knife through butter, broke in half on the frame. it clipped the front of his car and completely blocked my driveway. I have no idea if he is OK. hell of a nice guy too. I only stuck around long enough to climb over the tree and grab my cat. I spent the night at my ex girlfriends. ( Sometimes it actually pays to be a nice guy) If I had been home, the tree would have landed right on my pick up.
Alls good in my world this morning, I surely hope Jane and doggies are all right.And my neighbor too.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 17
I’m just impressed that he sent you his picture.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 17
I thought he was cheeto-hunting.
Sort of EPU’d from the previous thread:
What about a class action suit against the DHS on behalf of the abandoned children, citing neglect and willful child endangerment? Would the ACLU take on something like this? Does anyone know if anything like this is in the works?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 17
Is that a new feature of WordPress, that it captures photos of posters when they hit “submit”?
If so, I’ve got to get some new pajamas.
Wingnut’s got a crush on Christy, sending pix and all….
I have an update of storm aftermath in moderation.
EvilDrPuma @ 11
Ditto: Redd’s on fire and she never misfires!
EPU’d from last thread:
Biodun @ 123
Peterr @ 23
You’re wearing pajamas?
Great post but I have one small quibble.
This line, “Word of advice to wingnut trollery — take your head out of your behind…”
No need to be polite, just come right out and say it “Word of advice to wingnut trollery — take your head out of your ASS!”
Could someone please tell me what EPU’d means? Been wondering for a while now.
TeddySanFran @ 24
hope he doesn’t send any more pics….
it could get
uglyuglier…Peterr @ 23
and I better comb my hair.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 18
isn’t that Michael Cheetoff?
(emphasis mine)
http://www.liberalparty.org/JFKLPAcceptance.html
OK, refresh and see # 20 for update.
Renee in Ohio @ 31
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=EPU
I heard this soundbite on a radio show so I looked it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Z5mG9fk2s
EPU, from evil parallel universe’s initials. I guess evil parallel universe used to leave great, worth-reading comments at the end of abandoned threads, because everyone’d moved on to the next new post. It got funny, to where the posting to a quiet room got called “being EPU’d”
Am I wrong on that anyone?
And am I wrong to love Cheetoes as I do?
Thank you Thank you Christy!
One case in AZ where they were rounding up the “brown” people, they napped someone whose family had been in AZ for 10 plus generations, one of the original founding families. Ya they were profiling any brown person and doing INS/ICE raids just by picking them off the street.
This particular gentleman was working with those who do pickup labor in specific areas of the city. These specific workers are targets for abuse, unsafe working conditions and being ripped off by not paying them after they do complete the work.
The specific “hate the brown people” is very disturbing to many progressive in AZ as so many of the Democrats buy into it too. My new congressman Harry Mitchell seemed to have to out immigrant bash old JD at times.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 18
I have a photo of me with Cheetos up my nose.
mc @ 29
Hmm – as the cephalocecal feedback loop appears to be the fundament wingnut posture, the advice appears pertinent to plural wingnuts.
Should Christy choose to implement this suggestion, would “take your heads out of your ASSES” be more inclusive?
EPU’s made the Urban Dictionary? Look what omniscience will get you!
It’s also kind of an apology for bringing something from the old thread into the new one. Usually, that makes the comment off-topic, so a brief apology is offered up front.
American Hawk’s comment seems to me to be just another variation on the the old racist nits make lice meme. When will these idiots realize that American is a concept and not a genotype.
OMG! I used to work for that guy!
Thanks for clarifying the EPU thing. I was *never* going to guess “evil parallel universe”. ;)
Hi Christy,
You forgot the most important part. They aren’t really children if they’re brown. In fact, the darker the kids, the more it becomes liberal whining to care about them (viz AIDS in Africa).
Moreover, I’d be willing to bet no small amount of money that the owner of Swift pissed someone off and the raid was considered a slight slap on the wrist, or probably more appropriately, someone attempting to contain Swift and let them know who’s boss. By cracking down on some but not all of the workers, and through the selective enforcement, they’ve put Swift on notice, but probably for something else entirely. Hell, it might be something as prosaic as the Swift CEO’s son trying to get with some senator’s daughter. Makes for an interesting story, the way I’m thinking about it; but I definitely think there’s some shady backroom deals going on to make the enforcement as selective as it is.
Just talked to my parents who live mid Oregon Coast south of Jane’s place and they said they did not experience the current storm that whipped through OR/WA. This is not unusual for that area, I survived a similar storm in 1995 with 6 teenagers with no power (NO Hot water) for 5 days!
cephalocecal?
okay, that one sent dictionary.com into a depressed, strange loop. Sp(?)
I’m always up for learning new words…
Hmmm . . . a little editing of that comment seems in order . . .
Peterr says
December 15th, 2006 at 10:14 am*
EPU’s made the Urban Dictionary? Look what omniscience will get you!
omg – do ya think we should tell him?
In Washington, it is the standing policy of the state and the City of Seattle to not cooperate with ICE due precisely to federal policies that are contrary to state law and public policies. There is a strong public policy (at least in Washington State) to make child welfare a priority. The actions of the federal government – at least under this administration is at odds with this.
Additionally, in our State the wage laws are strictly enforced. If a worker does the work, he gets paid, regardless of his status because otherwise, it would encourage unscrupulous employers to have illegal aliens work for them if they could get away with not paying them.
Lastly, I am sick to death of Republican Bush Toadies calling themselves the party of “family values,” and the “party of life” when their largest accomplishments have been to kill tens of thousands of civilians, and destroy the ability of the average family to raise their children and meaningful participate in their communities. Enough.
Hey egregious!
I have been keeping an eye out for my Pony. Is it on its
neighway?jayt @ 50
I’m sure he already knows – that’s the other thing omniscience will get you.
Peterr @ 53
Very good.
of potential interest to students of the 16-word dead-ender crowd:
egregious @ 41
egreigous – you’ve just gotta share that picture – :>D
Sort of, but not really off topic (we are talking about wingnuts, aren’t we?) . . .
The Wall Street Journal’s Washington Wire blog notes that Mary Matalin’s sending out emails . .
There’s only one comment over there, suggesting that the Irving Defense Fund probably ought to take the dead people off of its list of Advisory Committee members.
LOL!
Peterr @ 43
I’m also amused by the disclaimer after the entry:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=EPU
jayt @ 51
He knows he’s in there. Seriously. He’s omniscient!
oh well, no suprise that the torn apart families are not mentioned here:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..eatpackers
it’s jest bizness, folks. Merry Christmas– enjoy your roast beast!
shooogarp @ 53
Santa Claus is comin’ to town….
There might be two ponies, one for commenter bdu who also came very close. I don’t know whether to wait for Florida’s lost 18,000 votes to be found or not. Let’s say you both win.
egregious – time to pony up!
newspaperbrat @ 57
It’s a long story…well ok was visiting my sister when she was a freshman at my alma mater, and was trying to win a discussion that youthful creativity did not end with graduation from college and becoming [shudder] a GROWNUP.
jayt @ 48
oh dear – i’m sorry – just a small attack of neologism here this morning…
cehaphalic – pertaining to the head.
Cecum
The cepahalocecal wignut (pardon the redundnancy) has his or her head inserted so deep that their heads have passed upstream though the entire large intestine.
Although controlled studies have not commenced, the anatomic displacement and resultant immersion may account for the spray of dropules orally excreted by wingnuts in bloviation mode.
(Attempts to interest principal investigators in further inquiry have been risibly unsuccessful.)
punaise @ 63
Quit horsin’ around :)
Biodun @ 59
Sorry. Don’t know what I was thinking.
egregious @ 62
Anybody got a saw?
Note: no ponies were injured in the posting of this comment.
and off for nuts of a different type -
the dreaded tire store……
The cepaholcecal wignut (pardon the redundnancy) has his or her head inserted so deep that their heads have passed upstream though the entire large intestine.
Although controlled studies have not commenced, the anatomic displacement and resultant immersion may account for the spray of dropules orally excreted by wingnuts in bloviation mode.
May I safely assume that there’s a much simpler (say, umm, 4 words) way to say that?
punaise @ 62
Hold yer horses . . . there’s Florida to contend with.
If we really wanted to stop illegal immigration all we’d need to do is jail the executives of companies that don’t properly check employees’ citizenship. It wouldn’t take many of these operations before companies starting making proper checks… and honest immigrants quit sneaking in here to look for honest work. At that point, I’d bet our Border Patrol would be able to catch a much bigger percentage of those who wanted to sneak in.
Furthermore, if the wingnuts cared about helping poor Americans… maybe they would support programs to help inner city people jobs as seasonal farmworkers at the legal minimum wage. Maybe it’s not the greatest work in the world but it’s something. Instead Bush champions “guest worker” programs… Need we say more???
jayt @ 69
Would “Head up the ass” (or “avoid that mouth”)cover it? :)
Dick lovingly stroking Rummy on cspan now.
ick.
I have been keeping an eye out for my Pony. Is it on its
neighway?Scooter – ditty or didn’t he?:
There are 2 ponies. No need to panic. How I know there are two is that I have a Colt-er counter.
jayt @ 51
He already knows… being omniscient and all…
:-)
Monsieur Hawk, would you like a wahffer-theen meent?
Dude, Christy fed your troll ass like the gluttony guy in Seven.
Pop!
Cheney on Rummy: I would not be here today, if it weren’t for Don. I have no better friend, and I ask for none.
(thanks for nothing)
on to 9/11 and “civilization’s” enemies.
CHS misses the point of the quoted comment, and brings up other issues instead.
Hopefully this example will help: if someone tries a winter ascent of Mt. Rainier and brings their three-year-old along, most people would consider that person a bad parent. Can we agree on that?
And, if CHS entered Canada illegally and committed identity theft to get work certainly CHS would realize that she could be deported at any time. If she brought kids along, most people would consider her a bad parent. And, if she had kids while there, most people would consider her a bad parent – especially if she did so in order to hide behind those kids when it came time to be deported.
You the reader should think through in your own mind the steps you’d need to take to work illegally in Canada, and consider how you’d think of yourself if you had kids there knowing you could be deported.
As for the alleged abuses of the raids, perhaps if CHS wants to understand this issue in a bit more depth she might consider the possibility that that was intentional. (I haven’t bothered looking into this case in much depth because I realize what it’s about.)
kirk murphy says
December 15th, 2006 at 10:41 am*
Would “Head up the ass” cover it? :)
Strangely enough, those were the precise four words I was thinking of…
who’d a thunk it?
now if she committed identity theft, on top of Mt Ranier, with a three-year old…
But Christy, that was the whole point of the Military commissions act (that my two senators in NJ voted for, I am ashamed to report.)
These illegal, non-citizen immigrants *have* no rights anymore. They are not human beings that we as Americans have to recognize. They are not entitled to due process. They are not entitled to anything. And their children may be citizens but their parents have to be set as an example for the rest of us. If we step out of line and rock the boat, something bad could happen to your kids.
They are truly, truly evil. I hope Harry Reid hired a security detail for Tim Johnson and the other senators from Republican states. These people will stop at nothing.
Sniff sniff……
mc @ 15
That made me laugh out loud.
egregious @ 76
I hope you don’t have those ponies in the same cage…
Our daughter had two “female” guinea pigs in the same cage and boy were we surprised when one of the pigs had lil’ pigs.
In hindsight, the big pig was makin’ some funny sounds.
III at 80 — and you think the business should skate off scot free — which was the point of my initial post which was not, and has not yet been, addressed by the random wingnut trollery. Businesses who skate around the immigration laws to hike their profits and use low-information, low-wage illegal immigrant workers are akin to drug pushers. Are the addicts responsible entirely for the pushers’ profits? Nope. No more than the illegal immigrants are entirely responsible for ALL of the laws being broken and unless and until the company is held to be criminally responsible as well, we will continue to have this problem.
And no amount of “blame the parents and ignore the people who enticed them with promises of streets paved with gold to come here illegally” gets around that problem.
not too brush off the children, but being a roofer in chicago, i lost my job to polish immigrants. is any there effort to deport them too? or is it just mexicans? because that’s extremely rascist of ICE if there only going after mexicans to satisfy the bush base.
CNBC just ran a teaser related to the Swift raids: “Industry and Immigration – 4PM Eastern”
IllegalImmigrationIntroduction @ 80
American Hawk by another name:
You do realize that the moderators have access to the IP addresses of commenters.
Dubya: Don is a skilled, energetic, and dedicated public servant.
“we’ve been through war together.”
(security must be sooper-dooper tight with these three looneynaries all together at the Pentagon)
OT–Slate on Tom DeLay, blogger:
http://www.slate.com/id/2155502/
Today December 15, 2006 marks the one year anniversary of the Iraqi elections for a permanent government. The actual government wasn’t formed until June 7, 2006 or 175 days later. It already seems like an age ago and so much and so little have changed since.
kemo @ 82
with a candlestick!
Everythingseemssoneat @
38
I shared it with the White House.
My local AM station here in Tampa Bay (which has recently become a FOX affiliate- and boy, does it show!)reported this story (by the hosts of the talk, weather, traffic,etc. portion, not the “newscast”) as “most of the people arrested were involved in identity-theft and phony papaers”
Facts not really relevant, I guess.
Hugh @ 93
I remember driving in my truck the day the government was formed and hearing the news on NPR. I swear my first thought was “didn’t they have the election like six months ago?”
I barely cared and knew the situation was fucked. And I’m politically involved! Think how little the average American cared…
It’s the video games, I tell you.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 86
Even (for the sake of discussion) granting that all the folks swept up in this are guilty, the government’s actions here are despicable nonetheless. It’s like my mother always told me, “Just because someone else is acting up, that doesn’t give you permission to act up yourself.”
And my mom wasn’t even a prosecutor.
(IIRC, even though she was an amateur, she was pretty good at “law enforcement” – at least as it applied to me.)
new thread
w: Rummy always put the troops first…
(well, you got that right-> first into senseless battle.)
IllegalImmigrationIntroduction @ 80
Chertoff said it was intentional. he said he hope by doing so he would send a message (of intimidation) to other illegal alians in this country.
He is trying to start a wholesale panic.
Maybe that’ll make him feel all manly and powerful. Just another chicken hawk having to use the suffering of others to make himself feel like man.
kemo @ 96
I blame Clinton.
Imminent thread
I’ve been talking about this at TPM; I know a little about this business. It’s not fair that Swift should get off scot free, but they were citing a federal pilot program for quick & easy verification of legal status as their justification for failing to closely examine their employees’ standing. DHS fought the company for the past year, and Swift sued to block the raids last month; DHS is mad because they traced the systematic identity theft to Swift workers, and only after the feds had shown up did Swift start interrogating its own employees. As a result, 400 quit or were fired, in effect spoiling DHS’s probe into the bigger issue, the identity theft ring. Swift likely planned to use the pilot program as its defense in any legal action, so DHS did the only thing they could against the company–raid all its plants simultaneously, shut it down for a couple days, and cost it several million bucks. You can say Chertoff is a fascist and DHS broke up families if you want, but they were using the powers available to them to retaliate against the company’s brazen violation of immigration laws.
From the wisdom of Donald Rumsfeld:
Radio Interview with Secretary Rumsfeld on the Laura Ingraham Show: December 12, 2006
http://www.defenselink.mil/Tra…..iptID=3825
The logic here is that if we had had another 911, Bush would be less of a victim and in a better position because he would be less successful. Does anyone need to look beyond this to understand why our adventure in Iraq was doomed or why he fit in so well in the Bush Administration?
Christy–
I learned this as, “we have to do the right thing, even when other people aren’t.”
Christy – Have I told you lately…
God, social services would be so much easier if we just said to the kids, sucks your parents are bad, guess you shouldn’t have been born to a meth-addicted prostitute. of course, often you are just a funding cut away from doing just that.
IllegalImmigrationIntroduction @ 80
I think we can all agree that illegal immigration is a bad idea, whether you have children or not. But I can only assume that these parents did it because the alternative of staying in their own country is worse and they wanted to give their children a better life regardless of risk.
But you are overlooking the fact that if these companies were not hiring in the first place, there would be fewer incentives for the illegal to make the migration in the first place. And THEY get off scott free.
There is no way to justify what the DHS did to these children. You can complain all you want about illegals and parents but these children did nothing that would justify the treatment they have been subjected to. But it isn’t even the first time DHS has screwed up the lives of children. If you recall in 2005, there were hundreds of children who were separated from their parents in the aftermath of Katrina because the survivors were herded like cattle onto buses and planes without regard for who belonged with whom. Can we at least acknowledge we have pattern here? And what did those parents do wrong except not have the means to leave a dangerous city during the hurricaine of the century? Nothing, except they were born to a socioecnomic group of people that many Americans feel superior to and therefore feel comfortable neglecting. Didn’t we hear the same arguments about Katrina survivors back then? “Why didn’t they just leave?”, “Why did they have so many children they couldn’t take care of?” , “They should have worked harder and they wouldn’t be poor.”
They are just excuses for us to not get involved, to allow bad things to happen to some hardworking but unfortunately poor people. They deserve it. We are better than that. That kind of thing would *never* happen to my family. I am more responible, smarter, prettier, whatever.
Yeah, whatever. Unless you are in Bush’s inner circle of plutocrats, it could very easily happen to you because *they* are saying the same thing about *YOU*.
“Why do they need social security?”, “Why didn’t they save enough for their own retirement?” “If they knew they didn’t have enough to retire on, why did they have children?” “Why can’t they take better care of themselves so they don’t get sick?” “Why don’t they save for their catastrophic illnesses?” “Why can’t thy pay for their ARMs and why did they get them in the first place?” “Why do they expect US to take care of them?”
Why indeed? You reap what you sow.
egregious @
41
egregious, don’t think I can handle that image.
jayt @
51
Ahem. He knows.
here’s a picture of somebody named dan with Cheetos up his nose…
http://www.geocities.com/eatth….._Small.JPG
So, what’s the real reason behind these raids? David Bacon at The American Prospect (here) suggests that it’s union-busting at work. According to Bacon’s article, five of the six targeted Swift plants were unionized. Also, again according to the piece, the ICE has been targeting Cintas, Smithfield and other large companies that are the subject of union-organizing drives with several immigration enforcement tactics, going back months.
gjdodger at 105 — here’s an article from the MN StarTrib on that. Sounds to me more like the DHS trying to cover for the fact that it’s database sucks rocks.
1,363 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Patriots:
This post was terrific and a wonderful example of immediate analysis and “framing” the issue properly. However, beyond makin’ us all feel good with a terminal troll-smackdown (yes Busted knuckles: “hmmmm…smackdown goodness”) if yer gunna expend all that talent in troll-responses, then take us one step further and place the moment bein’ analyzed into the larger context of American fascism, racism, apartheid and corporate imperialism.
Jest sayin’…this site works on so many levels but I read the analyses here for more’n jest an emotional catharsis. I look for those thought threads that can help me understand the war beyond the immediate battlefield.
Thanx again for the good vibs (even if it’s momentary) jest don’t waste too much time on the trolls.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION AND REMEMBER TO TELL US WHERE TA SHOOT!!
New Thread
T- at 108 — that was lovely — thanks. :)
Sunlight @
72
How about
1.) If we seriously wanted to stop illegal immigration we could stop destroying the Mexican economy with NAFTA? Or,
2.) If we seriously wanted to stop illegal immigration we could use the BushCo model and make it retroactively legal.
Glad you enjoyed it, CHS.
Rock On!
gjdodger @ 105
Meanwhile back at the ranch, th elack of planning and empathy and responsibilty by DHS and ICE means that children are left in the lurch.
What happens when one of those churches trying to cope with this influx inwittingly gives a peanut butter sandwich to an allergic 2 year old who then goes into allergic shock? Or what about the toddler that need insulin or other life sustaining medicine just to survive?
A child of that age is to young to tell anyone.
What about the psycholigial effect on these children from an early age trauma like this?
HAVE YOU NO HUMANITY?
I am so glad I’m not your kid!
Potia,
My heroineIf you recall in 2005, there were hundreds of children who were separated from their parents in the aftermath of Katrina because the survivors were herded like cattle onto buses and planes without regard for who belonged with whom. Can we at least acknowledge we have pattern here? And what did those parents do wrong except not have the means to leave a dangerous city during the hurricaine of the century? Nothing, except they were born to a socioecnomic group of people that many Americans feel superior to and therefore feel comfortable neglecting. Didn’t we hear the same arguments about Katrina survivors back then? “Why didn’t they just leave?”, “Why did they have so many children they couldn’t take care of?” , “They should have worked harder and they wouldn’t be poor.”
Homeland Security has this us vs. them thing going. US are the well educated white people in power. THEM are the poor, the uneducated, the people of color–in short, the powerless.
And the powerless may be treated like animals with impunity.
The day Chertoff got appointed the DHS, my law partner who has known him for over 20 years (and is a republican) exclaimed “oh, those poor people”
I asked “what poor people?”
My partner said “the ones who will need help from DHS”
My partner said something similar when katrina hit and acurately predicted almost every disgusting thing that went wrong well in advance of the event.
The problems with DHS stem from the fact that at the helm of what is largerly and emergency services agencies, you have a prson with a lifetime of publicly and privately demonstrating a complete lack of empathy.
It’s not fair that Swift should get off scot free, but they were citing a federal pilot program for quick & easy verification of legal status as their justification for failing to closely examine their employees’ standing.
So that also puts it in the feds’ court.
DHS is mad because they traced the systematic identity theft to Swift workers, and only after the feds had shown up did Swift start interrogating its own employees.
So how come ninety percent of those arrested are not charged with identity theft? (My understanding is that illegals usually get papers with the real name, and the birthplace and citizenship are the false information. Is this identity theft? Not by my standards.)
Looseheadprop @ 122
A prof back in seminary once spoke in chapel, and told us to look around, because the person sitting next to us might become a bishop some day. That got some giggles and quiet silly remarks between folks seated together.
Then he told us to look around again, because the person sitting next to us might end up being removed from the ministry for child abuse or other misconduct. Not so many giggles that time.
Reading about your law partner brought this back. I remember my thoughts that day, looking around at my classmates. No bishops in our class yet, but as for the others . . . I haven’t been wrong yet. Damn.
Sometimes, it’s a real bitch to be right. Sorry your law partner’s so damn good at it with regard to Chertoff.
Hello all,
I just returned to work after collecting $60 from co-workers (teachers) and delivering groceries to a family caught in this irrational reaction against brown people. I wish I could take a wingnut with me next time I go to see the human faces of those directly affected. The father was deported, and the mother was left with four children (ages 8 mos.-12). Two were born in America, as was the grandmother. This mother is left without any way of contacting her husband to arrange to meet, move, or make any plans for the future. She was let go from her job cleaning floors in a mom and pop ethnic restarant day before yesterday because after hearing about the Swift packing plant raid, the owners feared being punished for hiring someone without a SS#. So now the mother has no means of feeding her family, contacting the father, or working. She also has no home in Mexico to go to, since her mother is here (and was helping with the kids while she cleaned floors). They are totally, totally destitute–and I mean they literally don’t know (or didn’t until today) where their next meal is coming from. The school age children, who are American citizens, don’t want to leave their schools, teachers, and the only life they’ve known.
This is only one of several families who have been referred to me for help with Christmas, but I’m finding they need to eat way before then. If only the fence-builders, plant raiders, Mexican haters, could see what they’re doing to families and children. I’ll never again believe that that the Republicans have any concern for familiy values whatsoever. That was just a political move to get votes.
This is only one of many families caught in a bind, living within a few hundred yards of the univeristy where I teach
Thank you for responding to me. I regret I’m getting in to the thread so late; I was offline for several hours. I regret that you resorted to ad hominen attacks; while I sometimes slip, I strive never to do so.
I note that you didn’t address a key point: By immigrating illegally, these parents knew that their children could be put in a legal limbo. It’s like if the police arrest somebody in the process of robbing a bank, and then got criticized because they took away some kid’s only parent. WTF are they supposed to do instead?
(1) Almost every state in the country has laws which specify requirements for the care of children who are caught up in legal enforcement situations wherein their parents are picked up on charges or in other legal enforcement situations
And we should strive to enforce them. But when you catch somebody in an ongoing crime, you can’t drop everything to make sure the childcare arrangements are done. It’s perfectly acceptable to catch somebody in the middle of a crime, then handle the childcare arrangements. The alternative is untenable.
(2) The company involved in these raids — Swift — had multiple facilities in several states raided simultaneously. Is it just me, or does that say “pattern of illegal hiring practices of end-running immigration laws and skirting other legal enforcement issues in order to secure higher profits by paying very low wages to low-information workers”?
Has the company been charged with legal wrongdoing or any criminal charges whatsoever? Nope. Does this raise the ire of our wingnut friend? Nope. Hypocrisy much? Yep.
By all means, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I never said they shouldn’t. In fact, I didn’t mention it at all. I presume I’m not required to list everything that outrages me to make a comment? For the record, genocide in Darfur also makes me sad, and I failed to mention that.
(3) Also, the DHS raided only the morning shift at these plants. Did they think the afternoon and evening shifts were filled with legal immigrant workers getting great salaries and benefits and having all their proper papers in order and such? OR did they think the daytime raids would make the news, that we’d all somehow miss the failure to enforce the same laws across the board for the afternoon and evening shifts…and that all of the various meatpacking plants could continue to exploit these low-wage, low-information workers who would keep right on working at these plants THAT ARE STILL OPERATING — and no doubt working on some new means to import illegal immigrant workers from Guatamala because, other than having a single shift distrupted, they have paid NO PENALTY WHATSOEVER.
Enforcing the law against every criminal is impossible. If they raided each shift, then there’d be another factory they ‘could’ have raided. Similarly, they could have raided every factory in town… then there would be the supermarkets. It would be impossible to raid everywhere, and anything less raises the specter of selective enforcement. As a result, the only alternative to selective enforcement is no enforcement. Which is the lesser of two evils? I don’t think it’s a hard choice.
I think there were a lot of bad decisions here, by the meatpacking company and by the parents who made criminals of themselves, potentially robbing their children of having non-incarcerated parents as they grow up. I find it hard, though, to criticize DHS for merely enforcing the law. The due process complaints, of course, should be fully investigated. I imagine we’ll see litigation spring up within the next couple days.
EDIT: One other point. Obviously, immigration law should be enforced equally against white illegal immigrants as all other colors. If an illegal immigrant is from, say, Croatia he should not receive different treatment than one from Mexico. It is, of course, undeniable that there are far more Mexican illegal immigrants than Croatian ones.
EDIT 2: Sorry, going to the well again. Your initial post also made a big deal of the fact that this was happening right around Christmas. Struggle as I might, I find little legal merit to the idea that lawbreakers with children are entitled to reprieve from law enforcement in December. The mere notion strikes me as incoherent; would it be okay to arrest only the atheist parents? Is it similarly unacceptable to arrest them before Easter? What about Thanksgiving? Halloween? Birthdays? The mind reels.
1,363 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
American Hawk:
Come on boy, tell us, yer really a dumb blond in disguise, right?
If not, do yerself a favor and quit breathin’ fer 10 minutes, it’ll clear yer head.
This is a very good point if those in question were engaged in a violent felony instead of just trying to survive in a world where the chips are stacked against them.
It would also probably be a stronger point if in fact the police had intervened the first time “the bank was robbed” and not after it had been “robbed” 12 million times, just saying.
Enforcing the law against every criminal is impossible.
So you want to enforce it selectively? Don’t waffle; that’s exactly what you said. I hold that the employers are most responsible; most of the illegals come because they’ve heard that these jobs are available and pay. How do they hear? Word of mouth from friends and relatives who are already here. Company recruiters, too: do you really think these jobs are advertised in Mexico? It’s a lot better here than in some village, or worse, a cardboard shack in a slum in Mexico City or one of the border towns. we here, we legal residents and citizens, we are so damn lucky to live, and we don’t think about it. We merely have people, in and out of government, who think that no one else should come, even though it’s okay for us to go to their countries and tell them how wonderful ours is, and export our TV shows and movies to ‘entertain’ them – you think they don’t see them, and believe that those are the way everyone lives, and want to come here for that reason alone? (There are people, natives, citizens, who believe that ‘90210′ and ‘The OC’ are the way everyone in Southern California lives. Should we expect people who are less familiar with this country to know better?)
[/rant]
American Hawk’s a liar, but there actually are people who, unlike him, sincerely wish for the employers to be punished as well as the employees.
And that’s not good enough.
If the employers get off free, as they invariably do, they have a huge incentive to continue to hire illegal, easily exploited, workers. Even if they get a llittle fine, the asymmetry between their resources and those of their workers is still such that they have an incentive to break the law. The only way to prevent the modern, international form of the old worker-intimidation technique known as “busing in scab labor” is for the law to punish employers so much more harshly than the workers that it’s the workers who have the blackmail card in their hands.
No government that consistently behaves in a way designed to continue encouraging the employment of illegal workers can be telling the truth when it says it wants to stop it, and no supporter of that government can be telling the truth either, unless they really haven’t thought the logic through. Like I say, American Hawk is just a lying Republican shill, but there are people who haven’t thought it through, and they should.
blessings on Marg
I like Norske’s idea.
Perhaps numbering arguments would help here:
1. Are the parents responsible for getting their kids into this mess?
2. Did the DHS not take proper precautions regarding the kids?
3. Should Swift have been fined?
Those are all separate arguments, with separate answers. If #3 is true, that does not mean that #1 is true or not true.
Comment #102 also didn’t understand what I meant by intentional.
I’m going to my nearest Red Lobster and see if they arrest and detain any moms who are smoking.
Derek; please provide precise examples of lies stated by American Hawk. To me, you totally negate all of your subsequent points with such statements. I happen to think both of you contribute good ideas. No need to be an ass about it, Derek.
I have read the whole thread. One thing that comes across loud and clear, at least it seems to me, is that if companies quit hiring illegals (of any color) then the flow of illegal immigrants would stop. Somehow I don’t think so, I think the illegals coming in from Mexico would continue and that would cause another whole set of problems for sociey.
Fine the companies, cut off the jobs and watch the crime rates skyrocket. There just has to be more than fine these companies.