Comments on: Git Out The Shovel… http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/ Firedoglake weblog Wed, 25 Nov 2009 02:08:06 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Craig Johnson http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-419430 Craig Johnson Fri, 15 Dec 2006 00:26:34 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-419430 <p><b>The Elephant in the Room is Oil</b><br /> Does anybody remember when Bush/Cheney told Shirac, Schroeder and Putin that if they didn’t put troops into the fray that they would not get any of the post-war goodies. These were oil men making decisions equivalent to putting together an investment consortium to divvy up access to Iraq’s huge oil reserves.<br /> If the US leaves Iraq without holding a power base then Russia, France, Germany and the biggest, winner-by-default competitor, China, will have a leg up on the US oil comrades.<br /> This is so anathematical to US oil interests as to absolutely defy rational description.<br /> Exxon Mobil is financially the equivalent of the fifth or sixth largest country in the world. Then there’s Halliburton, Chevron, other oil majors and would-be Texas oil players salivating for Iraq access.<br /> To think that Bush/Cheney can take a fork in the Iraq policy road which is best for the US but leaves the US oils shut out is complete hogwash. Iraq’s reserves and the Southern Asia reserves I call Petro-stan represent what, forty percent of the future revenues of the oil and gas business worldwide for the next century?<br /> Bush/Cheney are ethically, morally and financially conflicted and under no circumstances will the US be fully departing Iraq until new non oil related leadership takes office, presumably, in 2008.<br /> No democracy intended; none forthcoming.</p> The Elephant in the Room is Oil
Does anybody remember when Bush/Cheney told Shirac, Schroeder and Putin that if they didn’t put troops into the fray that they would not get any of the post-war goodies. These were oil men making decisions equivalent to putting together an investment consortium to divvy up access to Iraq’s huge oil reserves.
If the US leaves Iraq without holding a power base then Russia, France, Germany and the biggest, winner-by-default competitor, China, will have a leg up on the US oil comrades.
This is so anathematical to US oil interests as to absolutely defy rational description.
Exxon Mobil is financially the equivalent of the fifth or sixth largest country in the world. Then there’s Halliburton, Chevron, other oil majors and would-be Texas oil players salivating for Iraq access.
To think that Bush/Cheney can take a fork in the Iraq policy road which is best for the US but leaves the US oils shut out is complete hogwash. Iraq’s reserves and the Southern Asia reserves I call Petro-stan represent what, forty percent of the future revenues of the oil and gas business worldwide for the next century?
Bush/Cheney are ethically, morally and financially conflicted and under no circumstances will the US be fully departing Iraq until new non oil related leadership takes office, presumably, in 2008.
No democracy intended; none forthcoming.

]]> By: Rich http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-419043 Rich Thu, 14 Dec 2006 17:10:10 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-419043 <p>Yeah, the phrase “Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic” occurred to me.<br /> Basically, if the Iraq War was a single day, then “Shock & Awe” marked the sunrise and Saddam Hussein’s statue-toppling occurred shortly before breakfast, then we’re deep into dusk, the gents are having their cigars and brandy, the ladies have finished with the clean-up and are playing cards and the kids are busy in their rooms.<br /> This is NO time to be making new decisions or starting up new initiatives.</p> Yeah, the phrase “Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic” occurred to me.
Basically, if the Iraq War was a single day, then “Shock & Awe” marked the sunrise and Saddam Hussein’s statue-toppling occurred shortly before breakfast, then we’re deep into dusk, the gents are having their cigars and brandy, the ladies have finished with the clean-up and are playing cards and the kids are busy in their rooms.
This is NO time to be making new decisions or starting up new initiatives.

]]> By: P J Evans http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-419014 P J Evans Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:32:35 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-419014 <p>I want Congress to give them enough moneey to get all our troops out of Iraq by the end of 2007. <em>No</em> money for anything there after Dec 31, period. If the neocons want to do anything, they, personally, get to put up the money, because we-the-people won’t.</p> <p>Chance of this happening? Slim is leaving town at noon. I don’t think the Dems will do it; it would make too many Important Donors unhappy.</p> I want Congress to give them enough moneey to get all our troops out of Iraq by the end of 2007. No money for anything there after Dec 31, period. If the neocons want to do anything, they, personally, get to put up the money, because we-the-people won’t.

Chance of this happening? Slim is leaving town at noon. I don’t think the Dems will do it; it would make too many Important Donors unhappy.

]]> By: angie http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418976 angie Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:10:51 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418976 <blockquote><p> The main problem in Iraq today is not civil war but the brutal, illegal occupation by American forces. The divisions between the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam are more than 1400 years old, and throughout that history, there has never been armed warfare between them until U.S. forces invaded. It is American forces who are directing and arming the Iraqi police and army, and it is American forces who by law are responsible for maintaining law and order. The Iraqi police are largely composed of militiamen from the private armies of former CIA operatives Ahmed Al-Chalabi (Iraqi National Congress), Iyad Allawi (Iraqi National Accord), and Nuri Al-Maliki (Hezb’Dawah). There are also Iraqi Police Commando Units—aka death squads—who are being trained by American Special Forces.</p> <p>(snip)</p> <p>The recently released report of the Iraq Study Group echoes the military assessment that the status quo in Iraq is hopeless. But their proposals are non-starters, since our history of occupation in the Arab World from Palestine to Iraq shows our bias for outside interests and our lack of credibility to take part in negotiations. The time for diplomacy was March 2003. After the death and utter destruction that “liberation” has brought to Iraq, we have no choice but to exit and exit now.</p> <p>Our obligation to the people of Iraq, to the people of America, and to the rest of the world is the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of troops and mercenaries (including over 100,000 mostly U.S. private contractors) from Iraq. Ideally, a large multi-national force that excludes all neo-colonialist European countries should be created to establish law and order—a job we failed to do—and disarm the aforementioned militias within the context of a political consensus. A new Iraqi government will emerge as it has historically following centuries of invasions of Mesopotamia, likely comprised of representatives whose groups are now vying for power. We are responsible for bringing chaos and atrocity to Iraq. It is up to Iraqis—and Iraqis alone—to shape their future.</p> <p>No human being, regardless of race, creed, skin color, ethnicity, or religion, accepts humiliation and subjugation. As such, our military death toll will grow until the day when the rape and pillage of the “New American Century” ends and the troops come home. How much more agony should we force the children of Iraq and America to take.</p></blockquote> <p><a href="http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15890.htm">http://www.informationclearing.....e15890.htm</a></p>

The main problem in Iraq today is not civil war but the brutal, illegal occupation by American forces. The divisions between the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam are more than 1400 years old, and throughout that history, there has never been armed warfare between them until U.S. forces invaded. It is American forces who are directing and arming the Iraqi police and army, and it is American forces who by law are responsible for maintaining law and order. The Iraqi police are largely composed of militiamen from the private armies of former CIA operatives Ahmed Al-Chalabi (Iraqi National Congress), Iyad Allawi (Iraqi National Accord), and Nuri Al-Maliki (Hezb’Dawah). There are also Iraqi Police Commando Units—aka death squads—who are being trained by American Special Forces.

(snip)

The recently released report of the Iraq Study Group echoes the military assessment that the status quo in Iraq is hopeless. But their proposals are non-starters, since our history of occupation in the Arab World from Palestine to Iraq shows our bias for outside interests and our lack of credibility to take part in negotiations. The time for diplomacy was March 2003. After the death and utter destruction that “liberation” has brought to Iraq, we have no choice but to exit and exit now.

Our obligation to the people of Iraq, to the people of America, and to the rest of the world is the immediate and unconditional withdrawal of troops and mercenaries (including over 100,000 mostly U.S. private contractors) from Iraq. Ideally, a large multi-national force that excludes all neo-colonialist European countries should be created to establish law and order—a job we failed to do—and disarm the aforementioned militias within the context of a political consensus. A new Iraqi government will emerge as it has historically following centuries of invasions of Mesopotamia, likely comprised of representatives whose groups are now vying for power. We are responsible for bringing chaos and atrocity to Iraq. It is up to Iraqis—and Iraqis alone—to shape their future.

No human being, regardless of race, creed, skin color, ethnicity, or religion, accepts humiliation and subjugation. As such, our military death toll will grow until the day when the rape and pillage of the “New American Century” ends and the troops come home. How much more agony should we force the children of Iraq and America to take.

http://www.informationclearing…..e15890.htm

]]> By: hackworth http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418965 hackworth Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:56:42 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418965 <p><a href="#comment-418956"><em>z adura @ 93 </em></a></p> <blockquote><p>I am confused. I thought GWB was the guy who could think from his gut and that the great benefit of this thinking is that he was not fettered by namby-pamby Washington pointed heads. </p> <p>Conversely, we now have a war strategy that requires months of evaluation in order to tack one way or the other. Isn’t there a mid-stream paliative they can initiate to reduce either Iraqi casualties or U.S. soldier casualties or both while they gaze into their collective navels?</p></blockquote> <p>Like Alice In Wonderland, its whatever they say it is and that’s that. Sometimes its quick draw McGraw and sometimes its hard work and lots of thinkin’ and deliberatin’. Cuz presidentin’ is hard work! </p> <p>And there should be no doubt that the media belongs to them. He rarely gets called on anything! But, did you hear that Obama dresses like Ahmadinejad and his middle name is Hussein?</p> z adura @ 93

I am confused. I thought GWB was the guy who could think from his gut and that the great benefit of this thinking is that he was not fettered by namby-pamby Washington pointed heads.

Conversely, we now have a war strategy that requires months of evaluation in order to tack one way or the other. Isn’t there a mid-stream paliative they can initiate to reduce either Iraqi casualties or U.S. soldier casualties or both while they gaze into their collective navels?

Like Alice In Wonderland, its whatever they say it is and that’s that. Sometimes its quick draw McGraw and sometimes its hard work and lots of thinkin’ and deliberatin’. Cuz presidentin’ is hard work!

And there should be no doubt that the media belongs to them. He rarely gets called on anything! But, did you hear that Obama dresses like Ahmadinejad and his middle name is Hussein?

]]> By: randron http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418961 randron Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:46:24 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418961 <p>Someone needs to do an accurate count of EXACTLY how many brave Americans lose their lives from the time the “Decider” decided NOT to decide until the “Decider” actually decides something. Bush has perfected “going from bad, to worse;” “out of the frying pan, into the fire;” etc. etc. to an art form!!!</p> Someone needs to do an accurate count of EXACTLY how many brave Americans lose their lives from the time the “Decider” decided NOT to decide until the “Decider” actually decides something. Bush has perfected “going from bad, to worse;” “out of the frying pan, into the fire;” etc. etc. to an art form!!!

]]> By: Peterr http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418959 Peterr Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:45:17 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418959 <p><a href="#comment-418954"><em>Mrs. K8 @<br /> 92 </em></a></p> <blockquote><p> [p.s. I really savored your final comment to me last night, especially the image about “wrestling” with a difficult text. Your humility concerning ultimate “answers” in these matters is really inspiring to me — that kind of humility seems to be a real strength, and not a weakness at all. Thanks for your thoughtful replies!]</p></blockquote> <p>Seems to me that it’s also part of the strength of FDL, too. We may be outspoken and opinionated, but we’re willing to wrestle with difficult questions (and each other) and even change our minds on them.</p> Mrs. K8 @
92

[p.s. I really savored your final comment to me last night, especially the image about “wrestling” with a difficult text. Your humility concerning ultimate “answers” in these matters is really inspiring to me — that kind of humility seems to be a real strength, and not a weakness at all. Thanks for your thoughtful replies!]

Seems to me that it’s also part of the strength of FDL, too. We may be outspoken and opinionated, but we’re willing to wrestle with difficult questions (and each other) and even change our minds on them.

]]> By: rumi http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418958 rumi Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:43:38 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418958 <p>What would anyone make of this?</p> <blockquote><p><a href="http://www.juancole.com/2006/02/sistani-threatens-to-turn-to-militia.html"> Informed Comment</a></p> <p>Sistani threatens to turn to Militia<br /> Sadr Calls for Calm</p> <p>The shoe seems to be on the other foot now, with Muqtada al-Sadr attempting to cool Iraq’s Shiites down and Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani threatening to create a paramilitary to protect Shiites.</p> <p>…Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani was shown on Iraqiyah television meeting with the other 3 grand ayatollahs in Najaf, among whom he is first among equals. They include Bashir Najafi, Muhammad Ishaq Fayyad and Muhammad Sa`id al-Hakim. Sistani called for self-discipline and for peaceful demonstrations. He said Shiites must not attack Sunni mosques, but called for them to demonstrate peacefully. He laid responsibility for security on the Iraqi government, saying that it “is called today more than at any time in the past to shoulder its full responsibilities in stopping the series of criminal actions that have targeted holy spaces. If the security apparatuses are unable to safeguard against this crisis, the believers are able to do so, by the aid of God.”,,, </p></blockquote> <p> Sistani defused many dangerous outbreaks of protest/violence over the years. The article above is from <b>last February</b></p> <p> The Dem leaders are enabling a future of death and disasters. Please,….stop.</p> What would anyone make of this?

Informed Comment

Sistani threatens to turn to Militia
Sadr Calls for Calm

The shoe seems to be on the other foot now, with Muqtada al-Sadr attempting to cool Iraq’s Shiites down and Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani threatening to create a paramilitary to protect Shiites.

…Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani was shown on Iraqiyah television meeting with the other 3 grand ayatollahs in Najaf, among whom he is first among equals. They include Bashir Najafi, Muhammad Ishaq Fayyad and Muhammad Sa`id al-Hakim. Sistani called for self-discipline and for peaceful demonstrations. He said Shiites must not attack Sunni mosques, but called for them to demonstrate peacefully. He laid responsibility for security on the Iraqi government, saying that it “is called today more than at any time in the past to shoulder its full responsibilities in stopping the series of criminal actions that have targeted holy spaces. If the security apparatuses are unable to safeguard against this crisis, the believers are able to do so, by the aid of God.”,,,

Sistani defused many dangerous outbreaks of protest/violence over the years. The article above is from last February

The Dem leaders are enabling a future of death and disasters. Please,….stop.

]]> By: z adura http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418956 z adura Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:41:12 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418956 <p>I am confused. I thought GWB was the guy who could think from his gut and that the great benefit of this thinking is that he was not fettered by namby-pamby Washington pointed heads. </p> <p>Conversely, we now have a war strategy that requires months of evaluation in order to tack one way or the other. Isn’t there a mid-stream paliative they can initiate to reduce either Iraqi casualties or U.S. soldier casualties or both while they gaze into their collective navels?</p> I am confused. I thought GWB was the guy who could think from his gut and that the great benefit of this thinking is that he was not fettered by namby-pamby Washington pointed heads.

Conversely, we now have a war strategy that requires months of evaluation in order to tack one way or the other. Isn’t there a mid-stream paliative they can initiate to reduce either Iraqi casualties or U.S. soldier casualties or both while they gaze into their collective navels?

]]> By: Mrs. K8 http://firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418954 Mrs. K8 Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:39:16 +0000 http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/12/14/git-out-the-shovel/#comment-418954 <p><a href="#comment-418941"><em>Peterr @ 88</em></a></p> <blockquote><p><a href="http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/011559.php">Josh Marshall</a> is short and to the point:</p> <blockquote><p>Good News: White House exploring rapprochement with Syria.</p> <p>Bad News: Our <a href="http://www.nysun.com/article/45092?page_no=1">point man</a> is Ahmed Chalabi. </p></blockquote> <p>George - Chalabi? Again? Really, you have to quit listening to those same old voices . . .</p></blockquote> <p>Oh no, Chalabi. He’s the quintessential bad penny, isn’t he? Insists on turning up, again…and again…and again. Reminds me (metaphorically) of that other great con artist, Rasputin.</p> <p>[p.s. I really savored your final comment to me last night, especially the image about “wrestling” with a difficult text. Your humility concerning ultimate “answers” in these matters is really inspiring to me — that kind of humility seems to be a real strength, and not a weakness at all. Thanks for your thoughtful replies!]</p> Peterr @ 88

Josh Marshall is short and to the point:

Good News: White House exploring rapprochement with Syria.

Bad News: Our point man is Ahmed Chalabi.

George – Chalabi? Again? Really, you have to quit listening to those same old voices . . .

Oh no, Chalabi. He’s the quintessential bad penny, isn’t he? Insists on turning up, again…and again…and again. Reminds me (metaphorically) of that other great con artist, Rasputin.

[p.s. I really savored your final comment to me last night, especially the image about “wrestling” with a difficult text. Your humility concerning ultimate “answers” in these matters is really inspiring to me — that kind of humility seems to be a real strength, and not a weakness at all. Thanks for your thoughtful replies!]

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