Couldn't sleep, checked my e-mail and was astonished:
Pentagon's plan: More U.S. troops in Iraq — Boosting presence and aid, and an anti-Sadr offensive, carry risks but offer the best path to victory, military officials say.
By Julian E. Barnes, Times Staff Writer
10:25 PM PST, December 12, 2006WASHINGTON — As President Bush weighs new policy options for Iraq, strong support has coalesced in the Pentagon behind a military plan to "double down" in the country with a substantial buildup in American troops, an increase in industrial aid and a major combat offensive against Muqtada Sadr, the radical Shiite leader impeding development of the Iraqi government.
The Joint Chiefs of Staff will present their assessment and recommendations to Bush at the Pentagon today. Military officials, including some advising the chiefs, have argued that an intensified effort may be the only way to get the counterinsurgency strategy right and provide a chance for victory.
The approach overlaps somewhat a course promoted by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz). But the Pentagon proposals add several features, including the confrontation with Sadr, a possible renewed offensive in the Sunni stronghold of Al Anbar province, a large Iraqi jobs program and a proposal for a long-term increase in the size of the military.
Such an option would appear to satisfy Bush's demand for a strategy focused on victory rather than disengagement. It would disregard key recommendations and warnings of the Iraq Study Group, however, and provide little comfort for those fearful of a long, open-ended U.S. commitment in the country. Only 12% of Americans support a troop increase, whereas 52% prefer a fixed timetable for withdrawal, a Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll has found.
"I think it is worth trying," a defense official said. "But you can't have the rhetoric without the resources. This is a double down" — the gambling term for upping a bet.
Such a proposal, military officials and experts caution, would be a gamble. Any chance of success probably would require major changes in the Iraqi government, they said. U.S. Embassy officials would have to help usher into power a new coalition in Baghdad that was willing to confront the militias. And the strategy also would require more U.S. spending to increase the size of the U.S. military and for an Iraqi jobs program.
What Bush is doing is gambling that he can crush the Sadrist movement while taking on the Sunni guerrillas in Anbar Province, the one the Marines say they no longer can control.
He has been convinced by Cheney that if they take this risk, they might save Iraq.
In short, Cambodia, 1970.
A jobs program? When they did that, the Sadrist mullahs got all the credit in Sadr City. 70 perecent of all Iraqis want us gone. A jobs program doesn't make that occupation any more palatable.
The plan is to stage a coup to install the new, US-owned government, and then launch the Go Big plan. The problem is that the US thinks that they can shove aside or break the Sadr movement. which represents the vast majority of Iraqis. The Iraqi exiles think that he's a bumpkin and can be dealt with. I expect that they will realize how he has outflanked them at every move when the Mahdi Army beats back their scheme.
The New York Times has reported that the Mahdi Army has 60,000 men under arms. Most of whom are trigger pullers. The US will be able to send less than 10,000 American and Iraqi grunts on the ground. And I think 60K is low. Very low.
So, if you were an Iraqi, and the US replaced your government, would you have any loyalty to a bunch of exile schemers.
And as coup plots go, I would not be shocked to see Sadr strike first and deal with the plotters who organize in the White House. Then flood the streets with protestors
But this insanity means Congress must act.
There needs to be a Joint Committee to investigate the Conduct of the Iraq War. Harry Truman became famous investigating war contractors.
Congress needs to quickly establish oversight and demand all the players explain why this last great push will work better than the other great pushes, and why after pushing democracy, we sponsor a coup.
The ISG, imperfect as it was, was cover for Bush to wind down his failed war. So now, like a spiteful teenager, he's gonna show us all that he was right and Go Big, regardless of what anyone thinks.
Needless to say, this is a disaster in the making.
This offensive will fail because they don't have the men to win. When it does fail, Bush and Cheney should resign or be impeached. Because they will have killed Americans and Iraqis for no good reason except Bush's ego. And Congress needs to demand answers from these men.
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FUBAR!
Ouch!
Impeached and tried for war crimes.
Hi Steve.
The mother of all shit storms.
How do they plan to double down without feet on the ground?
What equipment do they plan to use?
Do they have an escape route?
Is this a classic example of “Cannon Fodder”?
Steve, your analysis is nails, as always.
Juan Cole certainly interesting today:
What a mess.
I was surprised with this story this morning also- It’s not being heralded as an administration plan- but surely the White House wanted it leaked for some reason..
It was brought up by Hadley and some others recently and was described by some as a (very small) build up to cover an ensuing draw down..What was being discussed at that time was 10,000 or so incremental troops for a short time- now they are talking 40,000- also for a short time…
Few will believe that these few extra troops will make a difference- what will they do?
As far as Sadr is concerned- the US could certainly defeat him in a force against force confrontation where air and artillery power could take full effect…of course a big chunk of Baghdad would likely be destroyed and MANY bitter enemies of both the US and the Iraqi govt would be created– and these would be shia..
Might try a game of chicken and see if Sadr backs down–if he doesn’t then we’ve got a wild one comin..
Maybe Clusterfuck thinks that americans want to see a REAL war- army against army- with the vaunted US airforce brought into play- smart bombs- shock and awe- that’ll get em back in the game.
No shit, are they going to empty South Korea to do it? Kim Jong Il will be very ronery if they do…
Things are fixin’ to get much worse in Iraq and the region generally. The penultimate fuckup of Bush’s fuckup-laden life. No one should be the least bit surprised.
A news item I read a while ago:
____
Bush Planning “Something Big” On Iraq
The White House announced yesterday that President Bush’s speech announcing his new policies for Iraq won’t be given until January. The reason? CNN’s The Situation Room mentioned “senior administration officials” who suggested Bush wants more time because he “is planning to do something big” namely, he is “very seriously considering agreeing with John McCain and increasing troop levels.” In fact, the Los Angeles Times reports on its front page that “strong support has coalesced in the Pentagon behind a military plan to ‘double down’ in the country with a substantial buildup in…troops, an increase in industrial aid and a major combat offensive against Muqtada Sadr, the radical Shiite leader impeding development of the Iraqi government.” The Times also notes that strategy would overlap “somewhat a course promoted by” McCain. And the Washington Times says “top military officials with whom Mr. Bush met yesterday backed Mr. McCain’s stance.” …
_
Needless to say, this is a disaster in the making.
This offensive will fail because they don’t have the men to win. When it does fail, Bush and Cheney should resign or be impeached. Because they will have killed Americans and Iraqis for no good reason except Bush’s ego. And Congress needs to demand answers from these men.
Yup!
Although the build-up plan serves the other point of the necessary fiction as far as Bush & his enablers go. When this again fails, and the disaster becomes even bigger it will force Congress to cut off funding for the war.
And all the sudden Bush & Company will push the lie that the Democrats lost the war for them.
And that, if this plan is acted on, is the “best case scenario”
It’s disgusting, and it is all about people dying for their vanity.
Jane- Yeah that’s a VERY interesting story- and one that someone obviously wants out there…
Could it be that Cheney requested the threat from the Saudis to point out the consequences of withdrawal?
Beats me- this story is so tangled it’s hard to take anything at face value.
Bobby- so what’s the ULTIMATE fuckup of Clusterfuck’s life?
rwcole @ 6
The biggest problem was the best thing the US had going for it (in the good old days before Shrub broke the army) was the PERCEPTION that the US was unbeatable.
Now that they know we can be beaten, every guy looking to make his bones as a terrorist or a rebellion leader is gonna call us out.
We will be putting out wildfires left over from this war for generations to come
Reminds me of McCain’s lone questioning, “Don’t we need more troops?” Obviously this was the plan all along.
insanity
McCain was talking about sending 100,000 troops- Clusterfuck is threatening to send up to 40,000- which still gives McCain wiggle room..
McCain’s idea- apparently- is to demand a number of troops that he knows damned well we don’t HAVE- that way his idea will never be tested..
If Clusterfuck comes close to his number, McCain will have to up it..
200,000 anyone?
I’m tryin to figure out how McCain figures that this is gonna get him into the White House- I don’t see the scenario yet.
Maybe tony the snowball can explain the shiny new plan for more grotesque destruction– he’s coming up on cspan.
Hope the press has their hip waders on tight and some real questions ready.
(I sure wish they would take some pointers from the British reporters who gave no quarter to the chimp or his lapdog the other day}
I want EVERYONE WHO AGREES WITH THIS STRATEGY to have skin in the game
your son, your brother, your daughter ON THE FRONT LINE
if you do not have skin in the game YOU HAVE NO FRIGGING BUSSINESS claiming “it’s worth the shot”
WHO THE FRIG ARE YOU claiming it’s “worth the shot”
are YOUR kids risking their lives?
no?
THEN HAVE A NICE CUP OF SHUT THE FUCK UP
The White House is going to roll the dice. ISG was the pass key to start the withdrawal. It was thrown away. The intention of the USA is to recolonize Iraq and to control 20% of the world’s oil supply. The puppet government has to control Baghdad. US troops will surge. The Mahdi Militia will be attacked since they represent the anti-colonial opposition. Sadr City home to millions will be destroyed. Nothing will change except the USA will be at war with all of Islam and sooner or later oil shipment out of the Middle East will be cut off.
BobbyG @
8
Bobby – do you have a link for the story from which you quoted, please?
Might try a game of chicken and see if Sadr backs down
That does not sound like a smart bet…
The Bush administration’s knack for infallibly doing the Exact Wrong Thing will be regarded by future historians with a certain horrified awe.
There’s a bit of baseball folk wisdom that you have to be a pretty good pitcher to *lose* 20 games – otherwise you wouldn’t still be pitching. I think history will admire Bush’s personal survival skills, that have allowed him to remain in office for six years despite being the presidential equivalent of Inspector Clouseau without the charm and blind luck.
Yeah, there is so much disinformation swirling around now it is really undecipherable.
But it is starting to look like the lines are being drawn for a larger regional conflict.
Needless to say, Bush will clusterfuck this in a bad way. Past is prologue, you know.
Look for someone to make a move before the US does.
-GSD
Jim S @ 17
;(
So, how far is our brand new, shiny permanent
baseembassey from Sadr City? Air strikes might not be such a good idea if nearby.Needless to say…
They chould change the name of Anbar to FUBAR.
Cut-off the funding and impeach them both…
THIS is what happens when you don’t impeach a war criminal quickly——he spills more blood.
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah has warned Vice President Dick Cheney that Saudi Arabia would back the Sunnis if the United States pulls out of Iraq, according to a senior American official.
The Saudi King busted Cheney’s balls and they are going to cash in the long-shot investment they made in GWB years ago. I think GWB is delaying the announcement of of “go-big for the win” until the troop “rotation” is to begin next year. The “rotation” will be “all in”, none out.
War crimes trials are happening right now, kids, but looks like they are going the wrong way. US Army prosecutor says he will subpoena Truthout editor, reporters in Lt Ehren Watada court martial. Oh shit.
And they’re going to need lawyers if that happens.
BobbyG @ 8
And so, a Pyrrhic victory: if Bush follows McCain’s plan, and when that plan fails, Bush incidentally destroys the only talking point the GOP’s 2008 favorite has come up with to date. (Not that I think that talking point was going to do McCain much good in the long run.)
All we need to do now is get a progressive, anti-war Democratic candidate through the primaries. The GOP is pretty clearly playing to lose for ‘08.
OK. I’ve turned the TV back on after a week, and – OMIG*D! Who dresses Tony Snow? I’m tempted to turn the dang thing back off.
There is a term in the mechanical world when you can’t figure out what is wrong with a vehicle.
It is called ‘The Shotgun Method’.
Just throw parts at it until you hit the right one.
Sounds vaguely familiar to this upside down mess.
What say all about the potential for Bush to utilize the new-fangled bunker buster “mini” nooks? I gotta say the potential exists. Their “successful” use would make Dubya a hero to himself and to those in the 25 percent Hannity/Limbaugh/OReilly/VanSusteren/Beck/McGlaughlin/King/Falwell/Dobson/Benedict camp.
ET–I thought it was just bad video from my ‘puter since my cable tv is down.
It’s bad.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 18
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/p…..061213.htm
Steve @ 25
Perhaps this is the “double down” bring in the new troops early and keep the tired troops around for a final battle.
Mission accomplished martini’s anyone?
If nothing else, this is proof positive that alcohol causes brain damage.
Mommybrain, on the map, look at the Green Zone. That’s the US embassy compound.
Sadr City is the big red area on the right. Looks like it is within mortar distance.
-GSD
Remember prior to 9/11 Mahsood Shah was taken out in Afghanistan. Look for a some assassinations and then look for the deluge to come. Al Sadr and Al Maliki have just bolstered their security details.
Ed*ard Teller @ 28
He he, It’s a sign, ET! Snow the pimp.
What say all about the potential for Bush to utilize the new-fangled bunker buster “mini” nooks?
Combining this with Mommybrain’s earlier comment:
Anbar = America Nukes Beyond All Recognition.
I agree with you that this will be a serious test of the heart of the new congress. Pelosi says they will not cut funding for troops. However, wil they build the case to resist augmenting funding for more troops?
The thought crosses my mind that the republicans are setting this up as a trap–dems cut off the support for additional troops, and this is what sets up a more viable John McCain.
On the other hand, it is a perilous trap, with 82% of Americans wanting a drawdown of troops.
Eureka Springs,AR @ 36
According to the Pimp Name Generator, that’s “Sugartastic T. Loco” to you.
. Massoud was assassinated in September 2001. By the order of Afghanistan’s President Hamid Karzai, Ahmad Shah Massoud was named “National Hero” the following year in 2002.
he was assassinated September 9, 2001
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Shah_Massoud
RIP.
shorter tony snow – it’s hard work. chimpy is working hard and the iraqi gov’t is working hard… it’s hard work
hackworth @ 30
I tell you, this is one of the reasons why I am really unnerved by Bush’s constant self-comparisons to Truman….In Bush’s pickled mind Truman was the only US president with the “balls”(in Bush’s stunted logic) to use nuclear weapons….He so wants to be Harry S Truman that he may opt for that part of the Truman legacy.
-GSD
twolf1 @ 41
Still shorter Sugartastic T. Loco:
(Barely audible drooling sounds)
Oh, and I think Bush is just dying to use nukes. Not for any strategic reason – he just sees Iraq and Iran as the Biggest Frogs Ever.
What a shock—the Pentagon recommends more war.
Have they ever recommended less war?
As one who thinks we have way too much military, I’m objectively for letting the Pentagon blow its entire load as fast as possible.
But think of the coming deaths—the pain will not be felt by those making these decisions. It will be felt in little agonizing pieces all across America, in the hearts of everyone who knew these kids, the promise snuffed out for nothing, and the anguish of having to continue living day by day with loss.
Eureka Springs,AR @
36
He gives pimps a bad name, in terms both of honesty and satorial
taste.
still shorter snow – the only reason chimpy is taking so long to the the American people know what his decideration is, is so the impression is given that he has listened to everyone and deliberated 24/7
Steve @ 25
Methinks the Saudis have been backing and will continue to back their Sunni brethren in Iraq regardless of what the US does or does not do.
Obi Wan Kenobi warned us about the “dark times”. I think they are upon us.
-GSD
Tony says we will never know what the conversation between the King and Dick was– it’s in the strictest confidence.
m’kay.
I think it’s Cheney for the most part these days. Junior…given the right medication, he might go for anything. But ol’ Dead Eye isn’t ready to cut the purse strings just yet.
I was on this rant all morning, then things got better with the Bonilla thread, now I’m depressed again.
Either way you slice, dice or play at punditry, more kids are going to die and that’s just all there is to it. We might minimize those deaths if there wasn’t a cabal of self interested assholes in charge, but there is, and that’s all there is to that, too.
angie @ 50
And even stricter discipline.
The Green Zone is surrounded. This scares me. I remember visiting the Custer battlefield monument. And the Alamo. Is it possible that the Green Zone could be attacked massively and the people inside rescued with many deaths among the rescuers? Isn’t it true that now there isn’t any real battlefield – with sides and lines, territories to be won and uniforms and insignia on the bombs? But couldn’t that change? Amb. Wilson thinks we should be concerned about troops having to fight their way out. That’s what that map looks like. We’re surrounded. And troops spread thin on the outskirts will be isolated, maybe abandoned if the center is attacked. I’m really scared about how bad this could get, so why isn’t Bush?
GSD @ 49
So did Tolkien, I mean Gandalf.
EvilDrPuma @ 52
707!
;(
If nothin else, Clusterfuck is succeeding in making himself the center of attention for another month in his long war against lameduckiness..
Congratulations- Clusterfuck- ya ain’t got the brains God gave a goose- but ya throw a REAL good TANTRUM.
EvilDrPuma @ 52
Lordy! Thanks Dr. I needed that. May I have another?
still shorter snow – the only reason chimpy is taking so long to the the American people know what his decideration is, is so the impression is given that he has listened to everyone and deliberated 24/7
Like his “Moody Prince Stemlet” routine before 9/11.
Eli @ 44
Frogblasters know that Giant frogs require giant firecrackers.
Ed*ard Teller @ 46
Not to mention that jacket and tie combo. Where is the Abramoff hat?
snow – “cheney and abdullah could have talked about the red sox spending x million dollars on a japanese pitcher”
Tony Snow says things are slow in Afghanistan because of the snows.
wtf is he smoking?
Now he’s giving props to Musharraf. Nothing to see here, move along.
Mrs. Robinson,
It is the same hubris that got us into this in the first place.
There had been rumors of a planned Sunni/Al Qaeda/Insurgent assault on the Green Zone.
Sure, it could all be lots of bluster a la the Information Minister….but it could also be a plan too.
Not to mention that the US may be planning on a push against Al Sadr. I get the feeling they have solidified their power and re-armed since the last US push against him…..It is going to be ugly. Brace yourselfs, the idiots in charge don’t know what they are doing and they haven’t learned a thing in 6 years.
-GSD
This from the NY Sun article on Avigdor Lieberman’s US visit:
He said the reception he has received has changed. “When I spoke even two, three years ago, everyone said, ‘You are radical, you are crazy,’” he said. Now, he says, people complain he isn’t going far enough. One measure of the increasing seriousness with which Mr. Lieberman is being considered is that on his visit to America, a Lieberman with a more moderate reputation, the newly re-elected senator from Connecticut, made time for a meeting with him.
http://www.nysun.com/article/45120
Has anybody seen an article about the Lieberman-Lieberman meeting yesterday?
On the Today Show about two weeks or so ago, Tom Friedman said the only way to engage the mess in Iraq is a complete military reoccupation. He then said this was impractical. Looks like this is now being planned.
Questions: Does the US have the troops? Will the new (Democratic led) Congress really allow this to happen?
Frank Rich said over a week ago that Bush is “untettered from reality.” That is to say: He is psychotic.
If Bush goes ahead with (or is even thinking about) this plan, then he’ll be acting out his psychosis.
Here’s how dictionary.com defines psychosis:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/psychosis
twolf1 @ 61
what a completely rude response.
BobbyG @ 9:43 am – Thank you very much for the link you provided.
Ed*ard Teller @ 64
Nope. *sigh– my prediction came true*
That excerpt is positively chilling.
rwcole – lameduckiness! Teehee.
Re: Boosh and mini nookular devices
Well, that thought completes the list of worries that keeps me up at night. I have no confidence in anyone, not even Barney, being able to talk sense into ol’Fustercluck once he decides to decide that decision. He will unleash the hounds of hell quicker than you can find a bunker.
See ya around 2am.
Where are you watching Tony blow?
Mommybrain @ 70
cspan
cspan
the next obvious question… why are you watching tony blow ;)
snow – “OBL apparently does remain at large…”
Isn’t this exactly what we did two months ago?
And a few months prior to that?
And a few more months prior to that one?
And say… the last few years worth of months… All the DOD suggests is to throw more troops at it. After a while, it has got to improve, NO?
I mean, think of the odds… they treat it like they are in Reno. High odds but sooner or later you’re bound to win something… or you crap out.
Say, anybody got a few extra $$$$$ and a son or daughter to wager?
Steve, thanks so much. It’s hard to overestimate the contributions you have made towards educating us all.
Is our attack on the Mahdi army a suckup to Saudi Arabia? Presumably the Shia depend on the Madhi army as one of their primary defenses against the Sunnis?
Also, this is urban warfare in a heavily civilian environment, classic 4G war. Our land, air, and sea, supremacy doesn’t count for anything when it’s a battle for “hearts and minds.”
GSD @ 9:58
IIRC, it’s a matter of when, not if.
I can’t find the article but I remember seeing it about a week ago. The Green zone is going to be hit hard.
Clusterfuck’s got center stage with his great “analysis” charade. Some are leaking that “he was actually there- awake- and asked some questions at the meetings” He met with the ISG for a WHOLE HOUR- yep- I’m not making this up!!
Looks like the next step is to create a legislative coup to get rid of “heckofajob” Miliki..
Then let’s say he brings in 20,000 more troops for six months (that’s about all he can muster) and then he picks some kind of a fight with Sadr in which he’s able to bomb and strafe and make a general nuisance of himself..GREAT HUH..We’ll all be watchin the bombs falling and cheerin on the good guys
Next–Clusterfuck declares victory- says that his build up idea was exactly what was needed- and starts a slow draw down of troops. drawing down to say 50,000 or so in well fortified bases and with lots of air power etc. He’ll try to make sure US casualties are WAY down and that the cost of the war is “sustainable” (no one will bitch too much about it compared to what the fuckhead is spending NOW- then we’re in our permanent bases with bright shiny faces- and ready to wait out the ten years it will take before we can start pumpin the oil out freely…
That’s my guess as to where this thing is headed.
Clusterfuck needs the build up and hot war to calm the right- and the draw down to calm the sane.
snow asked about bonilla’s defeat – prez is sad and he will be missed. boo f@#kin hoo
snow – it’s not a significant defeat
reporter – looking back, was redistricting a mistake?
snow – that’s a texas matter…
reporter – about being part of the union? lol
twolf1 @ 61
Its all a big secret not unlike the secret energy task force. Merken people should not burden their beautiful minds with the desire for knowledge. We should go shopping.
We must trust our leaders to protect us and make the right decisions for us. Dick is a smart and sensible man.
I know I always have a few drinks before and during shotgun events.
Ackkk! That tie? With the pinstripes? Lordy.
He so reminds me, in looks, of a dear friend who was in radio and has the same timbre but egad, the condescension! What a twatt (Terrible Wanker..and that Tie!)
OT
Watertiger is reporting that actor Peter Boyle has died.
http://www.dependablerenegade.com/
Mommybrain @ 81
i think it’s a support our troops tie – it looks like those little magnetic ribbons
And now Tony Blow says:
“No nation has been more aggressive on the diplomatic front than this one.”
I didn’t know that “aggressive” and “thumb twiddling” were the same thing.
snow claims they have talked to syria and they continue diplomatic relations w/ syria
Bustednuckles @ 82
I’m with Watertiger: screw “Everybody Loves Raymond.” Peter Boyle–Best. Frankenstein’s. Monster. Evah.
Peter Boyle RIP.
Oh and Tony says we are the bestest government in the world wrt Darfur.
(y’all didn’t know that, did you?)
ditto Steve !
sneak blogging from work and was absolutely horrified to see their plans for an anti-Sadr offensive -
the resulting rivers of blood, heartache and pain for Iraqi and American families will be unbearable
where are the 9 ret. generals now ?!?! does anyone with any juice have a clue as to what is going to happen ?
jeebus, no really, jeebus
Tony
Yeah- Clusterfuck finally found a press secretary with no fuckin conscience at all- which was what was needed.. Some of the others used ta get a little down in the mouth after several consecutive months of lying through their teeth- this guy actually gets ENERGIZED by it.
…snow successfully dodges another helen thomas question…
Attaturk @ 84
Oooooo-kay.
Sneaking Away In the Dark of the Night
by emptywheel
“Alright, I’ll be right up front about this. I’m posting this thread to do nothing more than invite baseless speculation about why the Saudi Ambassador to the US, Prince Turki al-Faisl, just up and left yesterday with no notice.
The WaPo provides one possible explanation: because his brother, Saud al-Faisal, Saudi Arabia’s Foreign Minister is “ailing.” Perhaps Prince Turki is running home for a good old power struggle. Heck. If I were Bandar Bush, the Ambassador to the US for just about forever, I think I’d like the job too. So maybe Prince Turki needs to be home to place his claim to the position. (It is perhaps appropriate, at this juncture, to remind readers there was a good deal of funkiness with Bandar’s own departure. Just so we remember how whimsical these Saudis can be.)”[…]
i was reading that bush was postponing announcing the new plan til january…. how would you want to be the parents of one of the 30-50 u.s. soldiers that will be killed this month that bush doesn’t want to spill his plans for christmas?
and THEN, more troops?? wouldn’t be surprised if some grunts parent goes hinckley on us.
EvilDrPuma @ 91
Especially under President Dubya. He is a great proponent of diplomacy at the barrel of a gun.
from JPost (Jerusalem Post):
Rice said that she was aware of Lieberman’s diplomatic plan. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs Robert Danin reportedly said that Rice treated Lieberman better than any Israeli visitor in the past two years.
When Hadley asked Lieberman about developments on the Israeli political map, Lieberman responded by outlining his proposal for electoral reform.
In meetings described as positive, Lieberman spoke with Negroponte for an hour, with Rice for 45 minutes and Hadley for half an hour. They compared their assessments on Iran, as well as different options, intentions and deadlines. Rice, who is an expert on the Cold War, spoke to Lieberman in Russian and also quizzed him about Russian politics.
Lieberman also met with Democratic senators Tom Lantos and Joseph Lieberman, who are set to chair the Senate Foreign Relations and Homeland Security and Government Affairs committees. Minister Lieberman spoke to Senator Lieberman about cooperation on homeland security. They also played the game of Jewish geography but did not discover any family connections.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S…..e/ShowFull
snow job over
OT, but speaking of Watertiger, I must complement her fine captioning job yesterday.
rwcole @
78
Do you think if Sadr isn’t crushed after the last US assault, he’s gonna let US bases be resupplied by road? I don’t think so.
If they do this and lose, the US will have to leave Iraq.
I never believe anything anymore from this crew. Tony can blow all he wants, it’s all a snowjob. They don’t want to “tell the enemy all our secrets”, including us.
“wouldn’t be surprised if some grunts parent goes hinckley on us.”
Funny, I was just thinking that it’s a wonder no one has done that yet (that we know about).
An addition to @95..
On the Iranian threat, Mr. Lieberman said Iran’s nuclear ambitions are “the biggest threat” to Jewry since World War II. “Ahmadinejad is not a rational player,” he said of the Iranian president. “Any attempt to pacify him is like before the second World War in Europe.”
Iraq war made the Afgan war the forgotten war: nuking Iran will make the Iraq war the forgotten war..problem solved.
Steve wrt our supply lines: Bullseye!
OT – “Of the 383 pieces of legislation that were signed into law during the two-year 109th Congress, more than one-quarter dealt with naming or renaming federal buildings and structures — primarily post offices — after various Americans.”
I assume that Bush can do this without any Congressional input, except for that extra ‘billions’ or so. My BIG question is: What will the dems do? I am not hopeful.
Would love to hear some comments from Jim Webb.
Steny Hoyer will make it hard for Pelosi to take tough action against any denial of monies. And Lieberman will be all over our T.V.s talking about this new brilliant plan.
My guess is they will bomb Sadr city until nothing is left standing. Sadar will let them, and then counter attack when they occupy their city. Just like this whole war has been staged — they let our troops in and then shut the gate behind them.
twolf1 @ 96
The forecast calls for continued heavy snow and severe blowing for approximately two years. The damage from the storm is massive, but the full scale of destruction will be unknown for some time to come.
Plow crews will be working overtime, to clear away the debris that the storm has brought – and continues to bring – down.
Residents of the United States are urged to bundle up tightly when venturing out.
Ed*ard Teller @ 95
An aide, speaking on condition of anonymity, quoted Dr. Rice as saying, “Вы взволновали мои соски.”
Steve @ 100
Ahmadinejad is not the decider. All decisions must be approved by the Ayatollah.
There are two Lieberman’s in this world that are real SOB’s.
More troops? Huh? WTF?
Some others have said it here before, just when you think Bush can’t make it any worse….
Congress HAS TO IMEACH!
OT-If Egregious is out there please send my Pony to:
Mr. Shooogarp, Esq.
FDL Prognostication Office
400 I Told You So Ave.
Smug, UT 84111
CNN – skilling reporting to federal prison today.
Hilarious.
steve
Beats me–Sadr himself will undoubtedly be toasted in the assault- In fact the first conflict would likely be a relatively small assault with taking him out the first priority–Sistani seems to be backing away from Sadr right now- so he’s got less protection than usual..
I don’t know whether Sadr has done a lot of “replacement” planning- or how deep his bench is…
As far as the military options available to the remnants of Sadr’s army—beats me
I didn’t say that it was a risk free idea- or even a good one- it just seems to me to be where the puck is headed.
twolf1 @ 108
FISH! FISH! FISH! FISH!
-Shawshank Redemption
Biodun @ 65
No. My father-in-law is a career Marine, WWII vet, and longtime amateur military historian (published, even.) We were talking a couple of years ago and he was saying that they had until the following June to start drawing down, because it wouldn’t be sustainable after that. That was a year and a half ago. Everything since then has been borrowed time — stop-loss, breaking the military, and mortgaging its future for short-term gain (what Republicans do best, feh!)
They can’t put any additional troops in for a sustained period. Going in to fight an enemy who can disappear into the population, and who knows you’ll only be there temporarily, serves absolutely no purpose other putting off the inevitable.
ET and Steve thanks for that information.
too bad she is not an expert on modern day American made wars…
Oh, yeah– we are looking very fair and concerned about human rights and justice to the rest of the world! Good job bushco and congressional “leaders”.
Steve,
Finally on topic. I don’t see a debacle of the scale you are concerned about actually happening to our troops, the mercenaries and our Iraqi dependents in Iraq. You’re right to see an eventual total collapse of our position.
But I see a combination of road convoys, airborne evacuations, tactical air support and artillery support keeping coalition casualties very low. I’m not so sure about remaining Iraqis left behind who might be perceived as collaborators.
new thread
angie @ 113
Condi thinks the “Cold War” was fought between Blue Bunny and the Ben & Jerry Coalition. Walter Koenig spoke better Russian on “Star Trek.” Who does she think she’s kidding?
It has been long bandied about that al-Anbar Province is the “key” to “crushing” the Iraqi Sunni arm of the anti-occupation insurgency – note well the entirety of the two Fallujah campaigns, which involved both a massive population displacement and virtually unrestricted use of airpower, artillery, tanks, all the components of WWII-style urban assaults.
Since then, other major areas of Anbar, particularly Ramadi, have also been the receipients of enormous US firepower. So, the idea that “doubling down”, with an emphasis on Sunni al-Anbar “pacification” virtually guarantees that Junior and Cheney are willing to sacrifice more Iraqi and American lives for a “final push” strategy that ultimately will change nothing within Iraq, or in any way affect the intensity of anti-occupation resistance – other than to increase it. It has been long obvious that the lunatics now run the asylum that is Junior’s Washington – the ISG report certainly confirms this – and whether a combination of Congressional opposition and a huge popular sentiment against Junior’s war can at the end of the day actually check this further descent into madness is just unpredictable. There are many vested interests who are leaking “new-way-forward” scenarios to their fav stenographers amongst the DC-based media, and what if any “realism” has now permeated sclerotic minds is quite problematic.
With irrationality actually a “strategy”, the next few months could go any of several ways, none of which will result in any semblance of “victory”, or “progress”, whatever, for this singularly disastrous misadventure.
Redshift, do you think the Boosh/McCain idea means that a draft will be inevitable? With 80% of Americans saying Iraq is a big mistake, would they dare?
angie @ 87
Well, remember, in BushWorld, talk and PR create reality. Bush talked quite a bit about Darfur until he got bored with it, and Congress did actually declare it a genocide. So in Bush terms, we’ve done a lot more than anyone else.
alan ‘likudnik’ deshowitz is over at HuffPo smearing Jimmy Carter again. How’s about you go over and let arianna and crew know what you think about her letting her blog be used for likud party propoganda.
Thanks
great conversation about the most important issue out there- too bad the new thread will kill it.
All I know is this:
If we go after al- Sadr, we will have unleashed an entirely new circle of hell for the Iraqis and those that fight them.
GrandmaJ @ 103
Sounds correct. Lieberman will be all over the teevee touting the brilliant strategery of Reverse Midas. It will be played up big in the MSM. Any dems who try to stop it will be anti american pussies. Steny will be at Lieberman’s side. Biden and Hillary and Obama will not disappoint the warmongerers.
They won’t fight the Military Industrial Complex’s Media Conglomerated Mighty Wurlitzer – ABC, NBC, CBS, Cable News. They will not bite the hand that feeds them.
One last big push will sell.
angie–
If there is a solution to this thing- then Sadr needs to be dealt with- they can’t get the Sunnis on board as long as he’s out killin them….
It oughta be the Iraqis takin him out or dealin with him- but no politician has the power to do it…
He’s certainly not the only problem- but he’s a BIG one.
When he gets killed (which he certainly will) there will be several major reactions…
touch off the fuse- and then DUCK!!!
angie @
121
Yep. It’s gonna be terrible. And, given that they’ve given al-Sadr a highly visible heads-up, there’s a good chance we will not be able to “do” him. We’ll kill and maim a lot people and further destroy infrastructure, but in the end we’ll just make ourselves more hated.
Mommybrain @ 118
No, I don’t, because they only care what’s good for them, not what’s good for the country. I think it means that they’ll increase troops for a short time and pretend it’s a big deal. (Bush will probably even convince himself that it really is.) Then when that doesn’t make things better, they’ll come up with another harebrained scheme to avoid admitting failure.
(A draft isn’t going to supply new troops fast enough to save this debacle, and though we’ll need troops to rebuild the military, once the debacle is over, I don’t think anyone will be able to convincingly argue there’s enough urgency for a draft.)
Maybe Bush is stalling because they’re going to be forced to call for a draft?
(A draft isn’t going to supply new troops fast enough to save this debacle, and though we’ll need troops to rebuild the military, once the debacle is over, I don’t think anyone will be able to convincingly argue there’s enough urgency for a draft.)
Unless, of course, we start another war of aggression over there.
Sorry, I jumped in and commented before I read the whole thread.
But as to reality making a draft illogical and impossible. When has reality *ever* stopped Bush?
The glorious Iraq war is about to die cause of lack of interest..
The US will not support what’s goin on for another four years… that’s obvious as hell to the casual observor..
We ain’t gonna get out in 2007 either- that’s also obvious..
Either we pull out completely in 08–or we hunker down into a sustainable position with less than half of the current troop commitment- those are the only options…
Clusterfuck wants the latter–
If you think of the whole Clusterfuck Iraq shuck as a show to find a road to 50,000 american troops in permanenet bases- with light casualties and with american control of the oil- well then you will understand just about everything that’s goin on.. He’ll lie his ass off, throw out red herrings, and generally fuck around with everyone’s heads- but that’s what he wants on the day he leaves office- it’s the only chance of a “legacy” for him.
AP – Shangrala Pakistan – In a rather unusal and sunny mood, Osama and Sadr are vacationing in the holy virgin terrorist cave. Osama was overheard telling Sadr, “Don’t worry my friend, the Americans will beat themselves with their own games, not understanding it was over a long time ago.” “More tea, anyone?”
SusanD @ 126
There will be no draft. Politically lethally radioactive.
_
rwcole @ 124
I’m not at all convinced that Sadr will be “gotten”; I think it’s more likely he’ll be the next dictator of Iraq. Trying to kill one individual in a military operation is a very chancy thing; look as bin Laden, Saddam, or any number of Palestinian militant leaders. And furthermore, there’s a lot of question now about how much direct control he has of his militia (and therefore how much difference it would make if he were killed.)
Sadr is an important political figure, but as an individual key in the situation, he’s just the latest supervillain being put forward. Remember how much better things got after Zarqawi was killed? Yeah, me neither. Bush thinks he’s Superman, and that he is America, and that every enemy can be defeated if he can just identify the evil mastermind and get him.
Sadr is not the Sadrist movement, and the Sadrists aren’t the only Shiite group who are killing Sunnis, and several others are part of the government. The fact that you’ve never heard the names of the people who would take charge of his movement if he were killed doesn’t mean they don’t exist. There’s no individual whose death is going to make this simpler.
I can think of one, but not in Iraq.
well said, Redshift.
Bobby
Agree- no draft- that would cook Clusterfuck’s goose..
Redshift
I’m no military expert- but takin out Sadr doesn’t sound too difficult- we know where he IS- he’s not hiding.. a few smart bombs in the right place and he’s ashes. If we wait until AFTER a battle commences with his army and he goes into hiding- well then it would become difficult- but to do it as the first step in an assualt on his forces doesn’t seem impossible.
Sadr’s appeal is very personal- and based on his FATHER (interesting).. he would be hard to replace.
rwcole @ 137
I’m not saying it’s impossible, just that the chances aren’t very good. Look at past instances where high-tech armies have tried to take out individuals — it sometimes succeeds, but most of the time it fails. And if you’re actually trying to improve the situation by doing that, everything that can be done militarily to improve your chances creates collateral damage that makes the situation worse.
And they’re *only* addressing Iraq. I heard no mention of Afghanistan, which is worsening rapidly.
Red
Hell Clusterfuck’s in the “not much to lose” area..
That sounds like an acceptable risk from his frame of reference.
rwcole @ 138
His appeal is based on his father, who was killed by Saddam. Why would his being killed by us lessen that personal appeal? Numerous political movements have remained powerful for decades based on the memory of assassinated leaders.
rwcole @ 141
Oh, I’m not saying he won’t try it; finding a new supervillain to fight would probably be very appealing to him. I just think it’ll be as much of a disaster as everything else he’s tried.
SusanD @ 140
We talked about Afghanistan in scarecrow’s thread this morning and he is working on a thread for later today, I believe.
Dru linked us to the ASG report that came out yesterday and it’s a humdinger– almost worse than the ISG in many ways.
angie @
122
The only logical way to approach it (from an aggressive action perspective, not what I support) to take on al-Sadr would be a massive air strike campaign as was done in Fallujah.
…think along the lines of what happened in Lebanon last summer except without the phone call warnings in advance. It’ll likely result in catastrophic consequences, I’m afraid.
by the way, we still don’t know what really happened at Camp Falcon
Iraqi Resistance Strikes Camp Falcon in Major Military Assault
The first live reports were aired live on US network TV:
We`re getting some amazing pictures, some very dramatic pictures coming out of Iraq to us from Baghdad. You can read the lower third there. “Explosions rock Camp Falcon just outside of Baghdad.” It is 11:28 p.m. there right now.
MSNBC News bureau in Baghdad, the bureau chief said there have been a series of explosions near the Camp Falcon area located just outside of Baghdad, and CPIC is confirming that there was an explosion at an ammo dump, which would explain these amazing dramatic pictures in the night sky of Baghdad. It exploded at Camp Falcon. The U.S. military base is south of Baghdad. (MNSBC, 10 Oct, 2006)
Following these earlier live reports, there has been a virtual media blackout on the casualties and losses resulting from this attack on the ammunition holding area at Forward Operating Base Falcon….
Let the bodies hit the floor…
Will The New Congress fight to bring our troops home or will they continue to let this bloody nonsense continue? Put your local reps on speed dial- It’s time to remind them why we gave them the Majority- We want an end to this farce.
IMPEACH THE MOTHERFUCKERS ALREADY!
The Dems need to neutralize this menace once and for all, political fallout be damned. Bush and Cheney MUST be removed from office as soon as possible.
Jesus Tapdancing Christ, grow a set of balls already!
Time to flood the phone lines again, once January comes. There is now no doubt whatsoever that impeachment and removal –not to mention prosecution and trial– is paramount to the future of our country.
Steve @
25
Exactly what investment did they make? Remember, foreign money in American political campaigns is illegal?
Word has it that Al Hakims Badr Brigades are the ones using drills to interrogate and kill Sunnis.
Hakim may be the worst offender.
-GSD
rwcole @ 137
They tried that with Saddam, who people hated, and missed.
People like Sadr. Airpower does not solve all problems.