
Said the Very Serious Dean earlier this week:
Whatever the final impact of the Iraq Study Group report being issued today, for the 10 commission members this was an exhilarating experience, a demonstration of genuine bipartisanship that they hope will serve as an example to the broader political world.
But it doesn't appear the wingnuts are going along with all this feel-good bipartisan rhetoric. Diane West of the Washington Times just called it the "Iraq Surrender Group" on CNN and said "We look like Lichtenstein" (without a trace of irony). Writing in the WaPo, Glenn Kessler and Michael Abramowitz note that this abject minority are giving Bush cover to ignore the Baker group and do what he damn well pleases:
Notably fueling the skepticism has been Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), who has raised pointed questions about the Baker-Hamilton panel's unwillingness to prescribe more troops, as McCain has urged, and its embrace of a regional conference with Syria and Iran.
"It's sort of hard to suddenly say everyone agrees Baker is the way to go when the leading Republican candidate for '08 is saying no," said William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard.
I'm sorry the wingnuts feel like they got shafted by the ISG, but despite the Dean's collegial harumphs about bipartisanship, there is something missing on the ISG that, like your average Ken Doll, I just can't put my finger on. Let's ask Russ Feingold:
"This commission was composed apparently entirely of people who did not have the judgment to oppose this Iraq war in the first place, and who did not have the judgment to realize it was not a wise move in the fight against terrorism.
"So that‘s who‘s doing this report. And then I looked at the list of who testified before them. There‘s virtually no one who opposed the war in the first place, virtually no one who‘s been really calling for a different strategy that goes for a global approach to the war on terrorism."
I'm probably a bit closer in perspective to Paul Waldman, who writes at Media Matters:
It remains the case that the primary prerequisite for being considered "serious" on matters of foreign policy and national security is that you were wrong on the most momentous foreign policy and national security decision of the last few decades. If your judgment was faulty, your understanding lacking, your foresight non-existent, your ideology blinding, then you are someone whose opinions should be listened to. If you supported what may be the single biggest foreign policy debacle in our nation's history, you are "serious." That disastrous error in judgment, which has so far resulted in the deaths of nearly 3,000 U.S. troops, also makes you "strong on defense," not to mention "pro-military" and someone who "supports the troops."
And I know it's a bit of a digression, but where does this leave the 2008 "support our troops" pro-war hopefuls? Terry Welsch says:
I've been thinking for a while that someone who has continued to support the Iraq War is now in a tough position. The war in Iraq is inarguably not working out, so you either have to suddenly drop your support for the war or suggest, per McCain, that those who have been prosecuting the war (with you support) haven't been aggressive enough and should send more troops. The former idea makes you look like you're flip-flopping for political reasons and the latter gets support from roughly 15 percent of the American public.
Me, I always like the "we were right to be wrong" argument. I hope they trot that one out again. Ah that's a chestnut.
Related posts:
- Frank Rich: McCain Was Wrong On Everything. CNN Treats Him As Sage
- Changing of the Guard: US Troops Withdraw from Iraqi Cities; Maliki Declares “Sovereignty Day”
- Valuing Democracy: Iran, Iraq and the War Supplemental
- Firedoglake Movie Night: The Way We Get By
- Afghanistan: 21,000 Plus 13,000 – or Plus 115,000?





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Hoping for the zed… FITZ and JANE
It’s so hard to not get blindingly mad and punch my laptop when reading posts like this. How did our Government get turned so back-asswards? Where wrong has become right and stupidity has become wisdom?
A chestnut roasting on a raging inferno. It ain’t like we didn’t warn ‘em.
The Gift doesn’t open itself…
Feingold said the same thing when he was on Countdown the other day…
And he certainly has a point…
Why couldn’t the ISG have had folks on there who knew all along that this war would be a disaster?
Oh, that’s right, Bush doesn’t like those “cheese-eating surrender monkeys”…
Oh, and good post, Jane.
Hi, everyone. : )
Y’all can’t really talk about the ISG without y’all read Matt Taibbi’s take…
http://www.rollingstone.com/po…..f_the_same
He really is the new HST, in my opinion.
Okay, I’m feeling nimble so I’ll trot downstairs to tell them we’re up here…
There’s no way sending additional troops into Iraq is going to help. We’re going to be mighty lucky if this doesn’t spread into a regional war. And if it does go regional it will spread. And the U.S. is not about to let the Middle East oil flow be disrupted. And that’s the nub and the rub of it. Then we just might see those mushroom clouds that our oh so very sage Condi spoke of.
Out of Iraq, before it’s too late!
I told them we were talking about them… let’s see if anyone’s curious…
Respective of the Iraq war, Arianna reserves her ire for the Democrats. So do I.
Marion in Savannah @ 8
We’re in your attix, eating your ‘ludes!
Marion in Savannah @ 5
The more I see of the ISG report, the more frustrated I am about it. When I first saw the report, I thought it could possibly force Bush into taking some real action on finding a diplomatic solution to Iraq, and starting to wrap up the occupation…
But then, I noticed the part about the remaining troops in Iraq being embeddened in the Iraqi army… WTF? What if the army turns against itself as the civil war worsens?
Oh yes, and I noticed the recommendation that Iraq allow “foreign investors” to gobble up its oil reserves… PUH-LEESE! The lt thing Iraq needs right now are a bunch of outside vultures ready to profit off Iraq’s oil, and leave none of that money in the country…
Yep, I guess the ISG really is just same ol’ s**t…
As Solomon would say, “There’s nothing new under the sun.”
Maybe it would help, just a bit, if the people in power had ANY IDEA what the frack was going on? I give you this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10…..wanted=all
It’s enough to make a marble statue weep…
Kristol’s remark makes for some great fill-in-the-blank fun:
“…so desperately clinging to that fifteen-percent majority…”
“…organizing a two-man circle jerk with Joe Lieberman…”
“…drooling on his tie…”
How many have died in Iraq since the ISG report was issued?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 14
Way, way, way too many…
Right to be wrong? Sometimes we are simply wrong. We need allies, indeed a coalition, to bring down the evil which is strangling our nation.
You’ve heard the phrase throwing away happiness with both hands? What about throwing away allies with both hands: (EPU’d)
In the bah humbug category,
your recommendations for gifts which will destroy the spirit of Christmas
Honestly this is not where I am. I am FOR the spirit of Christmas, which is to think about things eternal, give to the poor, forgive people that have hurt me, reach out to those who are estranged from family and friends, show great tenderness to those who are facing extreme old age and death, and consider how I might contribute to REAL peace on earth.
My idea of a Christmas present is to fly hundreds of miles to take my 78 yr old aunt, who is losing her mind, to her very last Messiah concert. This at a time when I am supposed to be resting and recuperating from the elections and trying not to drink so much. But my aunt will not always be here.
Sorry that I cannot help here with demonizing Christmas. For me this is real.
Sorry not to pile on to the anti-religious theme, but my faith is something alive and real. It calls me out every day and makes me paradoxically more active and more humble.
ymmv
You know, there are a lot of Americans, I’m gonna go ahead and say a MAJORITY of Americans, who are concerned about the direction of our nation, the war in Iraq, loss of Constitutional rights, et al.
But we are going to lose them if they think we loathe and disdain their basic belief in God.
Crashing the gate/coalition building, you want to be serious about this? Then stop demonizing people who believe in God and want the country to live up to its original ideals.
Being scornful of people who celebrate Christmas? Oh, clever, very clever, and very short-sided if you are truly interested in changing things in this country. The majority of people are real Christians, unlike Haggard and the like, and do not take kindly to having their beliefs mocked and ridiculed.
Want to be a tiny group laughing about what’s going on, with no power to change anything? Keep it up.
OT, or not: this is what the Thugs have “tapped” for the top minority spot on the House International Relations Committee.
But wait, there’s more!
Yeah. Good luck with that credibility thing.
Marion in Savannah @ 12
Oh yes, I remember now…
These people always talk about the grave threat that all these terrorists pose…
Yet they can’t even tell us whether they’re Sunni or Shiite?
OMG, why are we trusting these folks with our security?
Egregious, I think you missed the point.
I’d say the previous post was about demonizing people who demonize people with nonsense about the war on Christmas.
Wasn’t it Judith Miller’s boyfriend (ok, one of Judith Miller’s boyfriends) Ahmad Chalabi who first voiced that warped view?
I believe his exact phrase was “we were heros in error”
Priceless……….
Oh yeah, Jane, I LOVE YOU………..
Thanks Jane, I needed that. I was having a conversation with my Mom this past weekend about Iraw amd the ISG report. She gets most of her info from Time, Newsweek, Imus, etc. So she feels that these Serious Bipartisan People will have a good recommendation and Dumbass will run to implement and we’ll all be on our way to Oz.
Both the Russ Feingold piece and Media Matters piece will serve me well as I try to lead her down the rabbit hole. Those, and Pull Up a Chair of course.
Oklahoma kiddo @
14
and how many since it was written, and put on hold, until after the election?
Uh, oh! (From The Guardian):
So now, the Iraqi pols won’t agree to anything from the ISG…
Dammit, other than the first few hours of us feeling good from seeing Baker “spank” Dubya, what good has this been?
Did you catch Joe Darby, the MP who dropped the dime at Abu Ghraib? 60 Minutes
This guy had the courage to speak out and now he can never go home becuase the “support the troops” folks would kill him.
So ya’ll really thought this bullshit was going to matter? The boulevard of broken dreams.
atdnext @
23
I can’t seem to get a read on this…
On one hand you could critique the ISG report as simply a means by which to create political cover to the sheep (GOP and Dems alike) who’ve been going along with the neo-con madness. The fact is that there are no actual, viable solutions offered by the report, so it offers them a low risk second chance to repudiate the Bush war agenda, and maybe clean some of the blood off their own hands
At the same time, you could also perhaps interpret the excercise as the “moderate” Corporatists actually busting a move to reign in the neo-cons. “OK, kiddies, the party’s over. You had your fun but now you’ve crashed the car, so STFU and slide on over, ’cause we’re sending in Jim Baker and Co to take the wheel.”
Maybe it’s a little of both, but it’d be interesting (not to mention scary) if the neos refuse to go quietly. So far The Decider seems to be his usual petulant self.. and he’s got two more years to wreck havok…
Could be a serious battle brewing inside the beltway.
an exhilarating experience?
ahh, quelle Broderie…
EvilDrPuma @
13
I wish wrote that.
raven @ 24
At first glance, this seemed like the strongest rebuke of Bush that I could expect from the Beltway In-crowd…
And while that’s probably still true, I’ve had a closer examination of the ISG recs, and now I’m just seeing crap…
As I said earlier:
atdnext @ 11
raven @
24
Thanks for reminding me, I wrote a lot about Darby when I first started the blog and I wanted to see that. On the west coast we can still catch it.
Twisted Martini @
21
Yes they were quite pithy and in need of repetition I think. If I drank these “serious” people would send me for the Cosmopolitans.
Slightly OT:
http://news.monstersandcritics….._civilians
It’s sick, I checked out the VFW Post where the commander sadi on 60 Minutes that he thought Joe was a “near traitor”. Joe and his wife said people in both their families turned on them as well. I had the same experience when I became active in the VVAW lo those many years ago.
Jane Hamsher @
30
raven @ 24……….
Yes, I saw that. Can’t tell you how much that reminds me of where we live right now. A sex offender wouldn’t be treated like they’re treating that young man.
…….From a later comment I see you were in VVAW? I remember that as being a helpful group for some of the guys I knew.
I just had a vision of an angel who looked like John McCain. He came down from the sky on gossamer wings, blew a gold trumpet and said: Let there be more war and killing.
The savior is here, ask the beltway folks.
-GSD
Here’s my idea for a blog post. Or another page in my geocities empire. Or maybe it should just be an email to Bob Somerby.
David ‘the Dean’ Broder, 12/08/2006
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01287.html
Rochester, N.Y.: Where have all the centrists gone? Outside of the ISG, I don’t see any in Washington these days? Most Americans think the war was a mistake but that those who opposed were also wrong, that we should get out immediately but that we shouldn’t cut and run, and that Bush is misguided but that Democratic efforts to rein him in are also misguided. Most Americans believe all of this — how come no one in Washington, aside from a few centrist pundits (like you, for example), seems to?
David S. Broder: It is always tempting to think that one’s own views are moderate and sensible, and if others weren’t so stubbornly opinionated, they would agree with us. Iraq is difficult; public opinion is complex. Don’t be impatient. The American people are figuring this one out,, and as they do, the commonsense solutions, to a bad situation, will become inevitable.
Plano, Tex.: Where do you think this administration will go down on the “dishonesty scale”? It amazes me that Bill Clinton is remembered by so many (mostly partisans)as being fundamentally dishonest, when most of his lies were about his private life, and that Bush is still regarded by over 40% as being “trustworthy”, when his administration has misled the public almost exclusively on matters that affect us all (Iraq, “revenue-producing tax cuts”, etc.).
David S. Broder: You will have to forgive me. I am really tired of questions trying to vindicate Clinton’s lying by comparing it to Bush’s. Presidents ought not lie. It’s as simple as that.
Plano, Tex.: Not trying to “vindicate” anyone. I agree presidents should not lie. just wondering why it is that some seem to have “teflon” and others do not. Reagan told his share too but had such a likable “grandfather” image that no one seemed able to believe that he wasn’t just mistaken. Was just looking for your “insider” insight as to why some are viewed one way and others the other.
David S. Broder: perhaps because of the reputation they bring with them to Washington. Reagan was the Gipper, the straight-talking cowboy conservative. Bush was as he often said, “a plain-spoken fella..” Clinton had been nicknamed Slick Willie–a name I never used–long before he ever set foot in Washington.
Washington, D.C.: Something that seems to be missing from the discussion on ISG is that none of its members had publicly opposed the decision to go to war. I believe that is a serious omission and calling the group bipartisan is very disingenuous. Even some Democrats supported the war, half of the Democratic Congressmen and a significant minority of Senators delegation opposed it. So, it probably should be called ISG by THE party that once supported the war.
David S. Broder: As far as I can judge, the makeup of the group adds to the force of its recommendations. These are people looking at a realistic assessment of a policy they once supported but that has gone way off tracks. This has to bee my last answer today. I’ve enjoyed the chat.
———————————————————————————————————————————
Was Joe Lieberman in Rochester on Friday? In any case, that brief survey of what ‘most Americans believe’ was completely addled, not to mention false. But it’s commonsense to the Dean! Inevitably!
“Presidents ought not lie, it’s as simple as that.” How about Washington Post columnists, Dean Broder? Do you happen to remember a debate between Al Gore and G. Dumbya Bush that the public reckoned was won overwhelmingly by Al Gore? But the Deans of the Beltway decided Bush had ‘done better than expected’.
Ironic, that. A man who has no respect for any initiatives to help the less fortunate benefits from the punditocracy’s outreach efforts. Hey, let’s vote for the addled guy! AWOL cokeheads who have failed at everything in their life besides being born into the Bush dynasty are under represented in the White House. Affirmative action at its finest.
Dean, it was you and your fellow clowns who sold America the ‘plain-spoken fella’ theme, at the same time you sold the ‘Al Gore is a wooden guy who is too smart to be president, especially because he has a brown suit’ theme. You ought not believe you can get away with lying about it, the evidence is easily accessed on the internet.
And finally, we get to the new word for people (like the Dean) who have been completely wrong about Bush, the debacle in Iraq, and just about everything else these last six years.
“Realistic”. Nice, that goes well with “serious”. Hey Dean, I’ve got a third word.
“Responsible”. Realistic, serious, responsible. How does that sound to you? Good?
Here, let’s have an example.
Ohioan killed by explosive in Iraq
Northeast Side man’s Army service would have been up in early January
Saturday, December 09, 2006
Barbara Carmen and Matt Zapotosky
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH
Spc. Vincent Pomante III, 22, had a good sense of humor and was proud of serving his country, his mother said.
Karen Pomante packed her son’s Christmas gifts and made sure to mail them by last Sunday’s deadline to reach Iraq.
Don’t send much, her 22-year-old son had told her. Vincent Pomante III would have to pack it when he came home. His three-year hitch with the Army would be up Jan. 9.
Instead, Pomante, a standout wrestler for Westerville South High School, will come home to full honors.
The U.S. Army specialist and tank gunner was killed Wednesday by an improvised explosive device. His family is still waiting to find out exactly how and where he was killed.
His mother learned of her son’s death Thursday, and family members, including the soldier’s younger sister, Amy, and his father, Vincent Jr., are making funeral arrangements.
Karen Pomante said her son was proud of his Army service.
“9/11 had a huge effect for my son and his friends,” she said.
Vincent was killed in Iraq for what, Dean Broder? Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, had no WMD, and that big, fat present of Democracy isn’t happening.
George Bush and Dick Cheney and all their PNAC minions are responsible, Dean. And the pundits helped them into office and rubber stamped their rush to war. Need I remind you that it was George W. Bush who threw the U.N. weapons inspectors out in 2003…shouldn’t that have given you a clue? Those who insist only people who were completely wrong about the debacle (like the serious and realistic Dean) should be in charge of the solutions are responsible.
So do the right thing, David S. Broder. Take responsibility. Apologize. And STOP LYING!
GSD @ 35
Sorry, GSD…
I still can’t get over that first sentence. ; )
My only hope is that the crazy shrillness of the wing-nuts, neo-cons, and theo-cons combined with a public psychotic break by Bush will drive a stake into the heart of the GOP. Bush, a stupid little psychopath, is just the tool of a criminal enterprise. The Republican Party should be consigned to the ash heap of history.
Jane Hamsher @
28
that evil dr.? he always makes me laugh…
How do you really feel?
Steve @ 37
I have a long comment in moderation. Maybe it shouldn’t even be a comment, although it is somewhat topical.
raven @
24
Well, in the book of Matthew it says:
“But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.”
So my feeling is Mr. Darby is a prophet everywhere else…
Hey thunder, saw Gillian Welch last week and she has a new song that has a great line, “A bluegrass singer can be a left-winger”!
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 40
raven @ 39..That our country is being driven over the cliff by the insanity of about 1/3 of the population. All great countries eventually come to an end, I just never thought it might happen in my life time.
I’ll take your word on the Bible but I agree with you either way!
Marion in Savannah @ 41
McCain’s theme song:
Steve @ 37
I agree…
This current batch of GOPers has thrown us into a complete quagmire in Iraq, meanwhile they’re draining our Treasury by spending all this money on their warmongering as they continue to offer mind-blowing tax breaks to the ultra-rich…
And then, they try to distract all of us from their warmongering and their fiscal Russian Roulette with their kabuki theater of “moral values” as they proclaim that gay people are destroying America and the “abortionists” are trying to kill off the new generation of Americans…
Last month was only the beginning…
We need to kick some serious GOP ass in 2008 if we really want to put this country back on track! : )
McCain seems to be getting a lot of attention. And he and Trent Lott have teamed up. John just might be our next president. Where’s my party (the Dems)?
ifthethunderdontgetya @ 41
Don’t worry, it’s happening to me now. ; )
Oklahoma kiddo @ 48
Hopefully, trying to make sure that Two-faced McCain doesn’t become the next inhabitant of 1600 Pennsylvania.
Authoritarians never want their rule to end. They never accept responsibility and always place blame elswhere.
Pinochet’s supporters in clashes.
There is one less tyrant today. Good luck Augusto, hope you brought some tanning lotion.
-GSD
Steve @
44
Just as the Republican Party willfully drove off the cliff with Bush this fall. With Rover screaming “full speed ahead”.
-GSD
Oklahoma kiddo @ 46
If we’re lucky the Repugs will tap Rudy for Veep. Then let the games begin… There’s a BUNCH of good stuff to talk about there…
http://www.salon.com/opinion/f…..print.html
My guess is the Dems will be busy for the next year with hearings, and then, if God answers prayers, they will eschew the usual quadrennial circular firing squad and we’ll take 1600 back… {going off to light a candle}
I could be wrong (again) but I don’t really see it that way. We are nowhere near the social dislocation of, say, 1968. I think it was around then when Jim Morrison said, “the future’s uncertain and the end is always near. . .let it roll baby roll”
GSD @ 50
And all the people who were for the war and now “must be listened to” (I’m thinking of Ken “cakewalk” Adelman’s photo shoot in Vanity Fair and appearance on Meet the Press)…were almost without exception Chickenhawks…
men who had avoided military service and advocated sending other people’s children to war.
EVAQ IRAQ?
YES!
see http://www.cafepress.com/sarigraphics
Thanks Jane.
I think the most positive spin I can put on the Iraq Slow-Learners Group is that it’s a toe hold. It’s given Republicans a chance to come out against the $267,000,000/day war/occupation and it’s splintered their support for Bush. We’ve got a lot of work to do.
OT, thanks so much for having the General over.
Old US Military Policy, crafted by spineless politicians – Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell
New US Military Policy, crafted by even more spineless politicians – Don’t Stay, Don’t Leave
Bush still is like the 12 year old kid borrowing his dad’s monster truck and, even though the Baker commission tells him that he is wreaking havoc, he enjoys the driving experience immensely. He cares only about what he can run over with the truck, without any regard of what gets smashed, who gets hurt or who loses their credibility in the process. Even as James Baker, his newly minted driving instructor, urges him to put on the brakes and drive safely home to the garage, Bush still believes that his truck has to be driven on a victory lap. It is unfortunate that impeachment is the only tool to pry his hands from the stirring wheel. I hope grandma Pelosi is reconsidering her opposition to impeaching the rowdy teenager.
thunder–I hear ya.
Jane Hamsher @ 172
Thanks Jane. This time of year I’m about a half a beat away from being featured in B7 in the Post but I will try to take a light-hearted view. Not so easy. Will return to what constitutes normal in my life sometime later in January. Trying to be authentic while trying to keep head above water. How long can I tread water.
Heya atdnext – Since I hope you will someday soon agree with the idea of impeachment I thought of you while reading this post over @ digby today.
Hope you get a chance to check it out.
Thanks Jane, for another spot on post. You are indeed a beacon in our neo-fog. Got to love Senator Russ for keeping the light in their eyes as well.
Marion in Savannah @ 53
Perhaps you’re right. I hope so. ;o)
Titanyum @
58
a propos, see this editorial cartoon
Now is the time for impeachment.
Bush won’t listen to bipartisan advisors, the country, the world. I don’t think we have time to go through the “high crimes & misdemeanors” liteny. I think we just have to get Bush out of office asap.
Sorry if this has been shared before, I have been away and can’t catch up on all the threads yet!
http://www.informationclearing…..e15860.htm
I read somewhere earlier today that the Iraq war is costing $8 billion a month.
Jonathan Alter really hits the mark here…with frustrating clarity. I feel like I grew up on the Kennedy model…ask not what your country can do for you…and putting a man on the moon….and Jackie making her kids go out and work for minimum wage so they’d have an appreciation of their blessings…and obligations…
To watch the perversion of everything that is honorable and intelligent and, yes, decent by the arrogant fool who sits in the Oval Office is a sad, sad time indeed.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16…../newsweek/
I’d love to impeach Bush. But I still don’t know how to get around the ’super majority’ thing.
via Robert Sheer’s truthdig.com:
Shorter ISG controversy:
Old Guard: “… these chickenshit assholes are going to cost us a lot of money.”
Young Turks: “If those old farts think we’re giving up power–or the cocktail weenies–they’re badly mistaken.”
I don’t think Iraq even figures into it….
Zogby online poll goes right to the question of impeachment. I go ahead with that, then it goes off on travel – then specifics about ‘Bethlehem’ and views on the ‘wall’ and religion…about which I know next to nothing and don’t care (beyond being AGAINST the wall, no matter where it cuts).
NOTHING on Iraq/ISG/Dem Congress, etc.
Starts with a bang on ‘impeach’ y/n?
then… Bethlehem?
Taliban seize US cash from locals to fuel jihad
http://www.sundayherald.com/in….._jihad.php
OT..if anyone needs a laugh, this is Tom Delay’s blog before it was shut down. The comments are great.
http://tomdelaydotcom.blogspot.com/
$267,000,000/day times 30 days = $8 billion and change.
The ISG can be dismissed offhand as a foregone conclusion because of the faux Dino-Demo Lee Hamilton (who was a Liarberman cheerleader in the run up) and all the other members, None of whom opposed the war to begin with.
The ISG is a Template for Blame.
It’s the starting point.
The opening gambit.
Remember Lee Hamilton is chiefly responsible for Bushit Sr. skating on Iran-Contra. He was the Holy Joe of his day. Oak stakes thru the heart apparently are the only way to stop Dino-Demos and Vampires.
The jockeying is to see who will have the Flaming Brown Paper Bag of Shit left on their doorstep so they can provide the nation with the spectacle of stomping it out in full public view just in time for the 2008 Elections.
I can’t wait. I love well-done Bread and Circus.
Unfortunately, IMHO, this political jockeying and posturing will almost certainly insure at least two and a half more years of full throttle slaughter in Iraq and vicinity.
I wonder if McCain has “A Secret Plan to End the War”???
S.P.E.W.
Blank Kludge @
70
Hiya BK
How weird..is this a poll for everyone?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 67
Yep, sticky wicket, that.
How ’bout this: the two primary problems with impeaching the asshole are; one, the requisite super majority vote; and, two, the prospect of Dick Cheney as president. Rather than tackling those two issues, what about side stepping by using the existing majority in both houses of congress to pass a federalized version of a recall election.
With the recall election, the voting public gets to take the place of a ’super majority’ vote and, essentially, reverse the previous election results.
The only problem I see with that is John Kerry. I don’t know that he’s worth jumping through all those hoops for.
Prairie Sunshine @ 65
Well, yes and no. The frustating part he’s pretty good on, but thoughts like “his inattention to the execution of his grand ideas has had fatal consequences,” Alter’s analysis is also fatally flawed. The fatal consequences have come because of Bush’s “grand ideas,” not just because he didn’t pay attention to whether they were executed well, ignored fact he didn’t like, and thought that good PR was more important than results.
But it’s a start.
Just a tip for comedy. Lewis Black special on Comedy Central tonight. He starts out with a hunter shooting Cheney.
johnSwifty @ 75
The problem I see with it is that the only Constitutional means of removing such people from office is through impeachment. That’s spelled out in the Constitution; therefore, such a law would never pass judicial review.
It would require a Constitutional amendment to enable a recall process.
I think the “We were right to be wrong” argument feeds from the idea that at the time of the invasion it was common knowledge that Sadaam had WMD and was about to use them, so of course we had to invade. The fact that they were duped is of no consequence to them, they were right in light of the “information” available to them at the time. In their minds, anyone who opposed the war despite Sadaam’s WMD’s is not anyone to take seriously to this day. “Denial,” it’s not just a river in Egypt, no?
Howsa bout impeaching them simultaneously, with text specifying simultaneous termination of both offices?
Enter President Pelosi.
Speaker of the House Pelosi is next in line for the Presidency.
montag @ 79
montag @ 79
…which brings us back to effectively a super majority requirement again. Damn.
He has just enough cognitive skills to actually do quite a bit more damage in the next two years. The fact that he is too dense to take the ‘out’ offered by the ISG is a pretty good indication of that.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 60
Thanks, Eureka! Ya know, I totally understand where you’re coming from, as well as Digby…
Still, I don’t see how we can win that battle…
As someone else noted on DKos recently, what happens once we lose? What happens when we fail to convict in the Senate? That’s one of my huge concerns…
And besides that, I mentioned in my diary at DKos yesterday that I think we can accomplish more by focusing on an action-based agenda… I think that route is what’s best for ourcountry, as well as for our party.
Still, thanks for thinking about me, Eureka!
You rock! : )
kirk murphy @ 81
Super majority required again. I guess I’m back to hoping Mr. Waxman is the ultimate unsung hero in this debacle. If he can manage to uncover significant crimes and misdemeanors through a directed and precise investigation which naturally leads to undeniable grounds for impeachment (or, better yet, treason), then the folks on both sides of the aisle can have a come to Jesus meeting and throw ‘em all out. Short of that, it looks pretty bleak.
atdnext @
50
Hopefully ain’t good enough.
Rushton @ 79
Bush told the UNMOVIC inspectors they were out of time to find the WMD, and they had to leave before the bombs started falling.
This ought to have tipped off anyone who wasn’t in the ‘whatever excuse works’ crowd, aka the David Broders.
Major Danby’s latest DKos diary has an interesting perspective on how the impeachment issue is rippling through the blogosphere.
HotFlash @ 85
I agree. That’s why I’m hoping that that’s what they’re actually doing. : )
ES/AZ -
You can register for them. They pop into email and you click the link in the email to take the survey.
(Looking for link…our own user ‘lotus’ posted the link back when I had a Mac/PB (say early summer). Where is lotus, anymore?
http://interactive.zogby.com/p…..istration/
RBG @ 87
HEY! I’m on there right now!
Look at my pretty comment there. ; )
atdnext @
90
…and a lovely comment it is.
Rushton – exactly
atdnext – will check out the diary. Read yours already..)
The upcomming oversite, imo, will provide a number of criminal choices for impeachment hearings. Once brought into the light of hearings, we must have justice, we must have accountability. I don’t think a whole lot of progressive legislation will squeeze through while Bush Cheney are in office anyway. So lets convict some criminals and try to get denial back in Egypt, for the sake of our Democracy. Please understand I am not promoting impeachment for the reason of passing good legislation, but it will open the doors for it none the less.
Just like the fellow on 60 minutes tonight who exposed the Abu-G torturers, congress must do the same thing.
Titanyum @
58
Impeachment does seem to be the only route. And who will do this?
Impeachment has it’s own momentum … at the beginning of the Watergate hearings, who would have predicted Nixon’s impeachment? or even Weicker’s awesome moral stance?
How much more momentum will build when we bring W and his cronies before the people with the evidence that they have waged a war of choice on behalf of their investments in Halliburton and Carlyle and all? What momentum when we draw that stark line between W’s misrule and the deaths of 600,000 plus Iraqis and 3,000 US soldiers?
But momentum and political expedience cannot and should not be the reason – I think a lot about Ambassador Wilson’s heartfelt trust and belief in the Constitution. Where is ours?
ifthethunderdon’tgetya @ 86,
Agreed. I for one was listening to Hans Blix and Scott Ritter who were saying “Nothing there.” I was just trying to explain the mentality of the “We were right to be wrong” crowd. Their argument is much like a stone skipping accross the water, it has momentum at the moment, but the “water” of this catastrophy is vast, and with time the stone will sink to the bottom.
RBG @ 87
Yeesh! Much ado about nothing. At least FDL has much ado about moderately interesting things when real issues run thin.
To impeach, to not impeach…it’s not really a question. The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune have already pointed out the relative fact of the matter, this administration simply needs to be contained for two more years and then punted down the halls of history. The ISG looks to be that sort of effort; though, probably not a particularly effective one, considering its reception by all parties concerned.
Each day they waste debating, more American soldiers die. That’s how “patriots” go about “supporting the troops.”
Get them out NOW! There’s chaos and death with our troops there, and there will be chaos and death when they’re gone. No good will come of it to keep them there.
Oklahoma kiddo @
67
Gotta convince at least 13 GOP that he has to go. Could be not so hard, they must have self-preservation instincts.
BK – It’s a sad tale though I don’t exactly know the final details. Christy offered to explain via email not to long ago. Try sending her a question.
Oh yes, Zogby wanted a lot of personal info, iirc.
johnSwifty @ 81
Impeachment’s going to have to come from the bottom up. That’s pretty much what happened in Watergate, and it’s going to take time for that movement to develop fully. There’s every likelihood that Bush will leave office with neither Iraq nor impeachment resolved.
What can happen in the meantime–and should be starting now, behind the scenes–is a concerted effort to expose every seamy plot and subterfuge employed by these blights on humanity from Day One. That will have the effect of a)destroying the `pugs’ chances of any revival in 2008, and b) destroying the `pug brand name identification by showing the public that they can’t be trusted with anything–neither the public money nor the lives and welfare of ordinary citizens.
Let’s say Waxman is able to subpoena testimony from participants in the energy task force meetings. Even if he can’t get Cheney to release documents, all it will take is one oil exec scared of going to jail to say what we all know intuitively–that Iraq and Iraq oil figured prominently in those discussions–and that can be reduced to: Republicans sent an entire country into chaos and killed thousands of Americans to steal oil for profit.
How will that sort of thing play out in 2008?
Right now, nothing imho fuels impeachment more than Bush telling the Iraq Slow-Learners Group (and JB3) to go Dick Cheney themselves.
RBG @ 91
Thank you, RBG! Wait, are you also RBG on DKos? I think I’ve seen you somewhere on the Great Orange Planet of the Kossacks. ; )
Siun – I just want congress to trust the constitution. *s*
Siun @ 94
The Constitution is a marvelous thing; but it can’t create a solution to itself. It must be respected and, ironically, it protects the presidency in that regard. There will not be enough momentum for a super majority vote without some truly exceptional findings by the oversight committees.
No one would be more pleased than I if such crimes where uncovered quickly or took on the snowball effect of a Watergate style, downhill slide. That would be great. But I can’t really see that happening. Still, I’m lighting a candle for Mr. Waxman and I hope for the best.
In the meantime, if they managed to increase the minimum wage, that wouldn’t be a bad thing.
from jeff huber:
“Lynndie England, the brain damaged Army Reserve private, is still serving a three year prison sentence for her participation in the Abu Ghraib incident, after which she’ll receive a dishonorable discharge.
Alberto Sanchez, who knew of and approved the measures that Lynndie England and others practiced at Abu Ghraib, will receive a six-figure three-star general’s retirement pay for the rest of his life, and will doubtless augment his income by sitting on the board of a mercenary defense contracting company that will use his name to profit from the never ending war Sanchez helped to create.
When Lynndie England finally gets out of prison, she’ll be lucky to get her old job back–plucking chickens at a fast food factory in West Virginia.
In two years, George W. Bush will retire to his ranch in Texas, and the taxpayers will foot the bill for a library that contains tomes on what a great leader he was.
And across America, well-intentioned service organizations will raise money to help damaged veterans of Mister Bush’s Middle East wars who should have been take care of by the publicly funded Veterans Administration.
What kind of lemmings are we that we’ve allowed ourselves to be led by blind, power mad mice?”
Blank Kludge @ 89
Mr Kludge,
Lotus turns up at watertigers place from time to time.
atdnext @
102
Yep, one and the same.
Rushton @ 94
We need to keep reminding people of what really happened back in 2003, to make sure those stones do sink. And drag the ‘Dean’ Broders and David Brooks of the world down to the bottom, along with them.
you know … I’d rather advocate for, fight for … what’s right. I do not want to be one of those “serious people” in DC who weigh the political ploys rather than stand up for what is right – and what is right is impeachment and then the Hague.
montag @ 100
Now, you’re talking, thanks. I think we’re in agreement about the relative merits or possibilities of impeachment proceedings in the next two years. I also like your take on the importance of bringing information out into the open, regardless of an ‘impeachment’ result.
I think the oil connection is an intuitive point to investigate, as you say. I also think the Downing Street memos and the very intuitive notion that this Iraq war was going to happen, regardless of hell or high water (both of which we got), is another sick little boil that could use a good lancing.
Siun @ 108
Count me in on that!
johnSwifty @ 104
johnSwifty, you’re a man after my own heart! ; )
No really, I agree with what you’re saying here. How in the heck will we convince at least 16 GOP Senators to convict? If they couldn’t even do any basic accountability this year, what makes us think they’ll agree to impeachment next year? Again, as much as I’d personally like to see it happen, I’ve come to terms with the reality that it simply ain’t gonna happen…
But what we can do next year is hold Bush’s feet to the fire on Iraq, the minimum wage, college tuition, tax breaks for the rich, global warming, trade, etc. Bush will look like a real asshole if he just vetoes everything we pass, and we come out looking like the responsible ones. : )
Eureka Springs, AR @ 99
Thanks. Had NO real CPU (but for library access) for a few weeks end of summer.
…and yes, Zogby does take note of demos (like $$)
…and ALWAYS asks religion/income/WalMart shopping habits/union or not/military or not to end the questionaire.
But they did ask about Governor/House/Senate voting pre-Nov7 so I keep filling them out.
(and wonder how NSA likes my responses…)
I went with ‘not sure’ about whether I personally LIKED the Deciderer which was asked with impeach. May have led down a different ‘decision tree’ of questioning.
Peace, lotus (and zennurse too) if you’re out there.
atdnext @ 37
Siun @ 109
Well, I can’t disagree with you in spirit. I just think montag is right in that the practice of impeachment will take time and need to evolve as a natural consequence.
HotFlash @ 106
Well then. My education has been sorely neglected (as the same cannot be said for the Kludge pixels.)
Thanks.
Siun @ 107
Sure. But, unrealistic expectations are what they are. In between you and that demand for what’s right is a political system that works to protect itself–especially from the will of the people. :)
Remember, too, that unrealistic expectations and denial of the evidence were what got the country into this mess in the first place….
I think impeachment is justified, too. But, I also think for that to happen, the public first has to be convinced, overwhelmingly, that it’s absolutely necessary. That will take time, and there’s a good possibility that time will run out.
But, the first step in that direction is lots and lots of sunlight.
Siun @ 108
Hai hai!
Bush 41 and Baker are naming the source for most of the problems in the middle east, that is why Israel is in high PR mode.
Sidney Blumenthal mentioned in his book “How Bush Rules” one potential impeachable act was the misuse of funds for starting operations in Iraq prior to any approval by congress.
Angie … it is always a pleasure to fight the good fight with you.
Guess I keep thinking about Laith’s son who got to spend his birthday night guarding his neighborhood with an AK47 and all the other Iraqi kids who see that we have no moral core.
atdnext @ 111
Triangulate all you like. You Dems sell us independents down the river, you can whistle for 2008.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 92
I understand, Eureka. You want justice…
I’d like that as well…
Perhaps the next AG can look into criminal investigations into Bush in ‘09?
Still, how in the heck can we get 16 GOPers to vote to convict in the Senate…
We all know that the vast majority of them don’t give a rat’s ass about justice, so why would they agree to impeachment? Instead, I’m concerned that they’re going to make this into a partisan fistfight, and in the end we’ll be the bruised ones heading into ‘08.
Eureka, I respect you even more that you’re giving me a reasoned argument in favor…
Unfortunately, that hasn’t always been the case among certain circles in DKos…
I’m just concerned that this could totally backfire on us, and leave our country in peril in ‘08 if the GOPers use the fistfight to their advantage.
atdnext @ 112
I think you mean more of a real asshole ;-)
But it wouldn’t kill the Democratic congress to make him use the veto power. I mean, how many vetos had he had in six years, one?
I say McCain will peak too early and burn out. Plus he’ll get backstabbed again by his rethug buddies. I think Jeb will run in spite of his brother. The Bushista are brazen enough to try it and the rubes are always game.
montag @ 117
And your other point is very important too; that many dirty little secrets will be brought to light along the way, regardless if time runs out.
JohnSwifty et al …
It’s essential that there be a force outside entrenched power that fights for justice otherwise entrenched power never moves, never gives an inch, never.
Methinks we are too savvy by half, playing political pundit rather than fighter for justice. As we compromise over and over, we enable those wimps in DC who ask which way the wind blows …
I know, Siun– it is heartrending.
;(
(we’re all in this fight together and thank you for all you do and your sentiments)
HotFlash @ 122
What does “triangulate” mean. I’ve never really understood that term in political discussion.
And, what does an independent mind wish for in the coming two years of congressional endeavor?
montag @ 117,
I think you’re right. I hope people will get so very tired of what they hear coming from the various investigations, plus the war, that there will be a growing desire for justice. A natural consequence, as you put it.
johnSwifty @ 121
I think there’ll be many more signing statements in the future. But, the one that can probably be forced is on minimum wage. Last poll I saw, almost three-quarters were in favor of it and if Bush used a signing statement on that one, the courts would have him by the balls.
All that Bush would have to say, though, is “an increase in minimum wage would be bad for the economy” and the shitstorm would start….
johnSwifty @ 124
Right again, johnSwifty! Yes, Bush will be throwing his party under the bus if he simply vetoes every bill that we send him. That’s the beauty of us focusing on a productive, action-based agenda:
If Bush signs, our good legislation becomes law. If Bush vetoes, we make a case to America that we care about what they care about, while Bush only care about his narrow, far-right agenda. ; )
Siun @ 127
I will never disagree with legitimate passion. You tell me where to meet and I’ll march with you any day, to any destination; and if that helps then we’ll all be better for it and our nation a stronger place for recognizing its dissenters.
Suin and angie, can we all laugh if I say it’s great to be on the same page with both of you ….)
atdnext 122- Like montag said, with lots of sunlight, and quickly.
Eureka – page me anytime!
johnSwifty @ 133
And I’ll make the signs, dammit! : )
Impeachment-It’s the right thing to do, if only to serve notice to future Republican presidents that they will be held accountable for their misdeeds. Unfortunately, there’s not much time. I personally think impeachment is the only road to Republican salvation and redemtion in the public eye. You don’t think they would throw a lame duck president and maybe even a lame duck and extremely unpopular and reclusive vice president under the bus to remain viable? I think they would.
in the spirit of this conversation over the past few days. I am eating hot (im)peach cobbler at this very moment.
Come on upstairs, everyone! New thread : )
Rushton @ 137
Well, outside of the aforementioned “Watergate avalanche,” that sounds like the best possibility yet. It never occurred to me that they’d sell their own party members down the river, but I guess it should have. The only thing I don’t like about that prospect is that Bush will need to be given his “one last shot” in Iraq, ignore the ISG (for good or ill) and fail miserably one more time. More of our kids will die in that process. I wish I could see some solution to Iraq withdrawal and/or impeachment where more kids don’t die. That’s the part that kills me. It’s all well and good to play at high flying political punditry, but that reality always brings me crashing back to ground faster than anything.
HotFlash @ 93
I understand it is the Speaker’s job to consider all options faced by the majority.
Won’t it be We the People’s duty and honor to assure our congress-critters it is their duty and honor.
We the People have the duty and honor.
johnSwifty @
129
Triangulate: to erode truth in favour of the politically practical.
What do I want? Justice and the rule of law.
Siun @ 124
Hate to be pissing on people’s gardens, but, there were ten million people worldwide demanding justice before the Iraq war began, and it mattered not one whit.
It’s not compromise to accept that the process will work in a specific way, no matter what we do, nor is it compromise to accept that that process may work better and more quickly by developing the evidence to ensure the justice you believe necessary.
This is an administration and, by and large, a Congress which is insulated from and indifferent to public opinion to a degree we have rarely seen in modern times. Marches, protests, letter-writing campaigns have failed to deter them from doing what they choose.
Before the mule does what you want, you sometimes have to whack it with a 2×4 to get its attention, and that’s, hopefully, what Congressional investigations will do for both the administration and the press reporting on it.
And, if you still see that as compromise, what concrete proposals do you have to bring about that justice you seek? In fact, anything concrete you might suggest could easily run concurrently with other methods.
Y’know, it’s not an either/or situation–lots of different simultaneous approaches may coordinate to produce the results we all would like to see come to pass.
Let’s look at it from a different perspective.
…the ability and necessity to engage on simultaneous fronts…destabilizing regimes in multiple countries by overt and covert means…effective use of propaganda, psychological operations and denial/deception as effective nonlethal warfare…near permanent deployment of logistics, intelligence and training troops slightly under 100.000 for the dirty indefinite future…
The ability to control events from the shadows is a trademark of the current neocon forces. That’s why the most influential members held positions as #2 or #3 in the various offices. They have been equally effective in private induxtry.
If the worst case scenario plays out with chaos spreading across multiple countries, oil supplies threatened will keep prices high. Funding will be jacked up and nearly guaranteed to be provided by the Democrat Control Congress for fear of name calling and dirty election campaigns in 08…the worse it gets, the more likely the Ds will be quagmired to leave or increase troops.
Sounds like a brilliant plan for perpetual war to pursue global hegemony.
montag @ 143
No, no, it is not the investigations that are the compromise (”Verdict first and then the trial”) it is the assumption that impeachment can be avoided. The chimp won’t play fair, and saying impeachment is off the table is playing chump to the chimp. And impeachment as a goal is a concrete proposal.
montag @
143
The press is far and away the most encouraging thing I have noticed of late. That there are brave souls (or accidental idiot savants) in the main stream who see fit to even ask the obvious questions that have been bouncing around the blogs for the last several years. If there is an immediately positive momentum building, it is my fervent hope that the main stream media involves itself to the utmost.
HotFlash @
142
Damn, I’m an independent too. Shake brother (is there a handshake or anything? Tie pin, maybe?)
For me, the one silver lining of the ISG Report (Summary: Now that we’ve bombed the living shit out of their country, the Iraqis need to start taking responsibility for it.) is that it sets a pull-out date for early 2008. Before Bush leaves office. They’re pretty much telling Bush, “It’s your mess, and you have to clean it up.” Their specific recommendations are moot, because they know that Bush isn’t going to follow them. The deadline is what’s key. And yes, there’s some sort of clause about unless-something-unexpected-happens, but the only thing I can think of that’s truly unexpected in Iraq right now would be a nuclear explosion. The ISG Report has ensured that the blame for Iraq will be placed firmly on Bush’s shoulders and not, as Bush likes to say, on “future Presidents”. For that, at least, I’m quite thankful.
HotFlash @ 142
Well, I would differ, in that a concrete proposal is a plan toward the acknowledged goal. Second, as I’ve said several times thus far, setting impeachment as a goal of Congress without the evidence (and I mean evidence of both technical and legal significance) is putting the cart before the horse–and invites, nay, almost demands, the charge that such impeachment is politically motivated, thus guaranteeing its failure to achieve the desired end.
Now, if the evidence is developed–and there is overwhelming support for impeachment on the part of the public, to the point that politicians are fearful of not complying with the wishes of the public–and the Dems still refuse to draw up articles, still say that impeachment is “off the table,” it would be then that they will have failed us.
johnSwifty @ 146
I disagree only on the point of the media being brave souls to reverse to the truth we’ve been offering for several years.
I say the media has blood on it’s hands by enabling the ignorance and inaction of change the past 3 years. They should know that we see that blood on their hands so they’ll take their responsibility more seriously in the future.
late nite thread upstairs
Congress appears to be preparing to approve 160 billion for Iraq which would fund the 15 month timetable mentioned in the ISG report.
[I sure wish they would dole this funding out in quarterly increments.]
Bushco won’t allow the Dems much legislative success during this time, imo. [Dems need to force him to reject as much as possible, imo]
So let the sun shine down as much as possible. Just follow through with the findings, prosecute wherever possible. [Protect and defend the constitution]
Yes!
My inner ecologist loves the idea of simultaneous diverse tactics.
(Besides, all the different groups will act independently – so the grassroots impeachment effort wil continue in any event.)
Bush/Cheney/GOP will be splattered with
1) Oversight hearings for dummies: Huge tangible crimes with telegenic victims and creepy Rethugs (casted)
2) Grass-roots agitation for impeachment (doing)
3) State legislatures introduce impeachment motions (to do)
4) Rivers of blood in Iraq (unquenchable)
Bet the old GOP are wishing they were back in Reagan’s kitchen cabinet – not watching the end of Empire.
montag – Your point of impeachment cart before the investigative horse is of course correct.
I do use the the term impeachment while assuming evidence, hearings etc. are a part of the process.
All encompassing, but the steps do need to be mentioned in order to avoid assumption of guilt.
Of that, I am guilty!
Will break it down in the future. Thanks
I keep getting this weird feeling that they are going to try to pin “Who Lost Iraq?” on those of us who opposed the war from the get-go.
Jane,
The link should be to Terry ‘Welch’ not Welsch at Nitpicker. But, and I’m not happy about this, if DC picks our nominee again I disagree with Terry -we won’t be seeing a Democrat in the WH in ‘08. Certainly not if it’s Hilary or Barack.
For the love of our fellow Americans, can’t it all JUST(LY) STOP?!
We WERE right to be wrong. Georgesus said so.
http://www.seriouskidding.com
To me it all comes down to this and always has:
The war was completely immoral from day one, and we’re all going to hell because of murdering an entire country that never even hinted at threatening us.
All else is bullshit. As for the hell part, just look around.
Peterr, you are passionate and wise.
I am frustrated with the glacial pace of, well, just about everything associated with federal government, and I’m not just talking about these yahoos working now.
How many years later, forced busing is a shame of a sham of a neighborhood-wrecker of a bust. How come no one was concerned so much about what busing was doing to the families whose children were bused? Talk about a stigma. Yo, I got to school on the other side of town, yo. I’m special! Sure, getting on a bus at 5:00 am, home by 6pm? For your entire life at school? Guaranteed that you get a great education, eh, sleepy and pissed off all the time? F that.
Who really thinks that a policy crafted by some middle-aged white guy in a city that has no congressional representation, who lives only to get more money from K street, is gonna write legislation that works for, say, the people in the worst part of your town? Their idea of what life in the big city is really like is pretty much a joke.
I submit that, when the next big crash comes to America, we need to think about changing how our government works. I think the only way to do it is from disarray. Think The Postman.
Think the founding fathers ever even thought about the eventuality of 300 million people? I don’t.
My suggestion is radical. Divide the country into quarters, NE, SE, NW, SW or even 6ths, adding an upper and lower midwest. I know, I know, layers of bureaucracy aren’t the answer, but surely fine minds like yours can come up with a reasonable solution. Regional trade would improve an awful lot of lots, and intraregional trade would make up the differences.
I think I’ll spend a few evenings playing around with Sim Country. I’ll let you know how my country is doing.
Off to work, sigh. I got an early Christmas present yesterday, a Treo, so at least I can check in during the day now, though, honestly, reading comments
l
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r by letter is really hard.
*mwah*