FITZ!

Jane!

China is trying to end prostitution by parading the women down the street and making their names public. Next: American women who want birth control.

linky

From the WaPo.

Public Shaming of Prostitutes Misfires in China;
Traditional Discipline Draws Angry Outcry

Esten!

The most important point in the Digby piece is the NRA analogy. If the issue is as important as forced child birth then a pro-choice advocate must be as single-minded as the NRA. The “on one hand and then the other hand” approach to force child birth is immoral. To me the neutral position to the “fetal pain” issue was the end of the line for NARAL.

egregious @ 3

China is trying to end prostitution by parading the women down the street and making their names public. Next: American women who want birth control.

linky

From the WaPo.

Public Shaming of Prostitutes Misfires in China;
Traditional Discipline Draws Angry Outcry

Sounds a lot like the immigrant bashing going on here, brand the employees as villains, and the employers as victims.

Somewhere somebody has to start teaching *real* sex education. Like in 6th grade. And continue it through H.S.

And they need to be taught not only the mechanics, but the emotions of it. I can’t tell you how many little girls have been my clients. They thought if they had sex with the guy that meant he loved them. They thought if they had his baby he’d stay with them. And the guys need some “man talk” from a man. I had one guy who impregnated 12 girls in the same year.

It’s got to stop.

jeffreyw @ 6

egregious @ 3

China is trying to end prostitution by parading the women down the street and making their names public. Next: American women who want birth control.

linky

From the WaPo.

Public Shaming of Prostitutes Misfires in China;
Traditional Discipline Draws Angry Outcry

Sounds a lot like the immigrant bashing going on here, brand the employees as villains, and the employers as victims.

To be fair, the article said the prostitutes *and * johns were paraded.

another very relevant point rasied by digby in that same piece:

I do not think NARAL understands its function anymore. It is not a politician from a conservative district who won with only a few percentage points and needs to pander. It is not a political party that needs to gloss over differences to come to consensus. It is an advocacy organization. Its job is to hold the line and then move the debate their way.

[…]

…I think it’s a huge mistake for advocacy groups that represent fundamental rights to ever negotiate (leave that to the politicians.)

To be fair, the article said the prostitutes *and * johns were paraded.

That does play hell with my analogy. *long face*

Maybe we need to start explaining the “Hereafter” rule to NARAL and assorted pols.

If you’re not here after what I’m here after, you’re gonna be here after I’m gone.

NARAL has been wrong on the issues since the early 70’s. I once called them in disbelief about one of their vote recommendations, and their own staff member said they try to make things worse, so that people will be outraged and support the cause more. I was speechless.

I’m in agreement with this post except for the question of what is fast becoming a political issue racing beyond the available science, fetal pain. While this is clearly being used as one more right-wing weapon to control women, I am not persuaded that there is nothing there.

It was only very recently that pediatricians started using anaesthesia for circumcisions, because of the belief that newborns didn’t feel any pain.

We operated a child that was 1.5 pounds, that was probably at 27 weeks gestation, and that child was plenty able to experience pain. I fail to see how a 27 week fetus wouldn’t have the exact same neurological level of development.

Not trying to settle the scientific question this evening, nor to disrupt the flow of the comments, but we can occasionally be wrong. If I am wrong so be it.

Damnitall. The assault of the right-wing on women’s autonomous healthcare rights has been incredibly painful in its toll, and insidious in its backdoor sabotage of our ethics.

They think they are being noble in their righteousness, but they are merely wreakers of incredibly painful havoc, inserting themselves and their own personal values into highly intimate situations that are none of their business.

My in-laws, now in their mid-70’s, have had a change of heart because of the recent multiple births of their great grandchildren. Their granddaughter had an unexpected pregnancy, felt obligated to keep the baby in spite of not being married. But the baby actually was triplets, and all of them showing signs of distress in utero. Extraordinary efforts were taken to salvage the pregnancy, but the babies came nearly 4 months early. Phenomenal efforts were made to save them off, including multiple livesaving surgeries. Eventually, within months, two of the three died and a third now struggles, has cerebral palsy, limited sight and loss of hearing. My in-laws, staunch Republicans, now realizing their own mortality, are finally aware of the nature of mercy; being merciful sometimes means making difficult, personal, intimate decisions that end suffering. Being self-righteous and expecting others to suffer without end is not grace.

Twenty years ago my niece’s babies would not have survived at all; it would have been God’s will. Twenty years ago, the doctor might well have suggested early in the pregnancy that it might be merciful not to carry the pregnancy to term. But technological improvements and the systematic chipping away by the right at our ethical sensibilities means that we no longer understand mercy.

Think about it: we aren’t even merciful towards the detainees we abuse, we can torture them and restore them with medical technology and torture them some more. But mercy is expendable.

We can entertain bringing children into the world who have no real hope of surviving, who are bound to suffer inutterable hell from their physical limitations, but we can extend that meager hellish existence with technology and torture them some more. Mercy is no more even for the smallest and most defenseless among us.

How nobly Christian, doing unto Christ’s image every day this torture, instead of bringing quick and blessed mercy. Bah. If this is Christian, I want no part of it; it is surely not progressive values to want to violate the privacy of others and prolong suffering for the sake of self-righteousness.

OT – Pentagon: Rumsfeld is in Iraq

egregious, according to what I read they’re trying to say the fetus can feel pain at 20 weeks gestation. Drs. are saying that’s too early.

Thank you Rayne.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 30

I see no difference between someone else deciding whether I can have a vasectomy or someone other than the woman involved deciding she cannot have an abortion.

And just who said you could have a vasectomy?

We wouldn’t be having this discussion about fetal pain if our society did a better job at educating people about birth control, if it was more effective at making birth control available, if we simply placed enough value on the young people we have so that they cared enough about themselves NOT to indulge in high risk behaviors.

This fetal pain argument is little more than quibbling about the placement of deck chairs on the Titanic. Entirely too little, far too late.

“Third way”. DLC. It’s all crap. Lieberman. Hillary. I’m fed up.

HotFlash @ 8 To be fair, the article said the prostitutes *and * johns were paraded.

Yeah, that changes everything.

egregious @ 12..I agree with your concerns..I’ve operated on 450-500gm preemies and they (23wks?) received anesthesia. The problem is that the issue is so polarized that any discussion of issues is a sign of weakness. The other side is totally focused on only one result; as my mother would have said,”they are trying to cut the tail off, one inch at a time”.

Samuel Goldwyn would have said “Include me out.”

Third way = third rail, for progressives

SusanD @ 15

egregious, according to what I read they’re trying to say the fetus can feel pain at 20 weeks gestation. Drs. are saying that’s too early.

i haven’t seen any completely convincing data either way (would love links to primary research if this is something you’ve already studied – i’d be happy to be educated on this).

but here’s the thing. i don’t know why the possibility of pain sensation by a fetus should have ANYTHING to do with laws about what a woman is allowed to decide about her own body and her own life.

twolf1 @ 14

OT – Pentagon: Rumsfeld is in Iraq

Excerpt: “He’s there to express his appreciation to the troops and to thank both the troops and their families for the sacrifices they are making,” said Air Force Lt. Col. Todd Vician, a Defense Department spokesman.

If, however, the troops express their appreciation to Rummy, they’ll be court-martialed for “fragging.”

SusanD @ 7

Somewhere somebody has to start teaching *real* sex education. Like in 6th grade. And continue it through H.S.

And they need to be taught not only the mechanics, but the emotions of it. I can’t tell you how many little girls have been my clients. They thought if they had sex with the guy that meant he loved them. They thought if they had his baby he’d stay with them. And the guys need some “man talk” from a man. I had one guy who impregnated 12 girls in the same year.

It’s got to stop.

I agree SusanD
My mother nearly was run off the road and killed when she was President of AAUW (American Association of University Women) trying to get sex education in the high school when I was a teen back in the late 60’s.

Things have not changed much since then.

My favorite line from The History Boys (which I adore beyond measure:

MRS. LINTOT: History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. What is history? History is women following behind with the bucket.

“The Reducing the Need for Abortion and Supporting Parents Act” is an initiative that will work to reduce the number of abortions in America by both preventing unintended pregnancies and supporting pregnant women and new parents. This bill enables pro-life and pro-choice advocates to find common ground to reduce the number of abortions in America while protecting personal liberties.

Rubbish. Individual women have a right to decide the issue of whether or not to abort. There is no ‘in-between’.

It’s time to change the framing, so our progressive brethren who believe they have the right to inveigle themselves into medical decisions cannot use the arguments of the right.

First, NARAL has failed systematically at its goals. NARAL has not won a majority of battles for reproductive rights for some time, making it a useless organization. Were we in the business of promoting progressivism, NARAL could hardly be seen as an acceptable vendor and should be released. It is simply toast. We don’t fund it. It is not welcome. It is history.

Second, we talk about these hard cases, where mercy has been tossed for self-righteousness. Make them answer for their torture-over-mercy choices.

Thirdly, we push the right on the disposability of humans. How can an unborn fetus have more rights than the people of NOLA? or the people of Iraq? Solve that inequity first and then maybe we’ll have room to talk.

SusanD @
7

Somewhere somebody has to start teaching *real* sex education. Like in 6th grade. And continue it through H.S.

And they need to be taught not only the mechanics, but the emotions of it. I can’t tell you how many little girls have been my clients. They thought if they had sex with the guy that meant he loved them. They thought if they had his baby he’d stay with them. And the guys need some “man talk” from a man. I had one guy who impregnated 12 girls in the same year.

It’s got to stop.

Sixth grade? Try younger – a lot younger. When kids ask where babies come from, you tell them the truth, in ways appropriate to their age. Forget the stork – tell them that they grow in a special place inside their mommies.

True story: around the dinner table one night, The Kid got us into a “what are you going to do when you grow up” conversation with him (age five). At one point, with absolutely no spin in his voice, he said “and when I find a wife and we mate, then . . .”

The Mom looked at me, I looked at her, and we both silently went “huh?” Then I realized where it came from. The Kid loves the Animal Planet show “Meerkat Manor,” where one of the running story lines is a pregnant matriarch who exiled a lesser female for mating with a member of a rival group of meerkats.

Sex ed – why wait?

I see no difference between someone else deciding whether I can have a vasectomy or someone other than the woman involved deciding she cannot have an abortion.

We have seen over the past few months here at FDL that anti-abortion sentiment is part and parcel of the Authoritarian agenda, along with capital punishment and the idea of sending young men off to war. Patriarchs in control and all that. I say that just to reinforce that there are no *logical* grounds for discussion and compromise here.

I don’t think that most people would argue that abortion is a primary method of birth control. But it should be available to any woman. Safe, professional, and as trauma-free as possible.

Yes, absolutely, NARAL and any organization that purports to defend women’s right to their body and takes $ from them with that understanding, shall pursue that end explicitly. Stated Purpose: “to support and protect, as a fundamental freedom, a woman’s right to make reproductive choice.”

Digby is absolutely right, advocacy groups are not in the negotiation business.

I have been looking into NARAL, they are not all that transparent. Can’t find out who major donors are, although this is a bit of info. Abt 70% of their $10 million came from ‘grants’. From whom? And who is Lisa Horowitz? Robert A. Gross? Google doesn’t turn up much on Horowitz, nothing on Gross.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 28

“The Reducing the Need for Abortion and Supporting Parents Act” is an initiative that will work to reduce the number of abortions in America by both preventing unintended pregnancies and supporting pregnant women and new parents. This bill enables pro-life and pro-choice advocates to find common ground to reduce the number of abortions in America while protecting personal liberties.

Rubbish. Individual women have a right to decide the issue of whether or not to abort. There is no ‘in-between’.

If the politicos ever seriously try to create a single-payer health-care system, ensure a living wage permanently scaled to cost of living, and an enforceable system of child-support payment, you’ll know that they’ve actually gotten serious about reducing the number of abortions. Anything else is pissing around and passing blame.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 30

I see no difference between someone else deciding whether I can have a vasectomy or someone other than the woman involved deciding she cannot have an abortion.

The only difference I see is that any bill that tried to regulate your access to a vasectomy would be laughed out of committee.

Peterr — bwahahahahahah!! OMG, I forgot about Meerkat Manor!! What my son must already know that we haven’t discussed!!

Maybe I’ll have to couch my discussion about the birds and bees in those terms: absolutely no mating until you’ve gotten a college education and can afford your own burrow…

Heh.

Good thread, Jane. I think it is important to learn how to establish citizen oversight of *all* the various groups we empower to act for us.

BTW, are we looking at a photo of the 1952 winners of the Ladies Dulcimerfest or what?

Selise @ 24

but here’s the thing. i don’t know why the possibility of pain sensation by a fetus should have ANYTHING to do with laws about what a woman is allowed to decide about her own body and her own life.

One would have to assume that a baby feels pain when he/she is born. Does that mean we now should anesthesize babies before birth? I think we really are taking things a little too far here. There is no way to spare a fetus / baby some pain, be it either through abortion or through birth.

i would like to speak for all the egreg’d sperm:

Vasectomy hurts my categorical imperative. Please stop. Like the egg says: “It’s the woman’s choice.” I only do what i can.

Why in the world would an otherwise rational person, vote in favor of an anti-choice candidate?

Rayne @ 35

Peterr — bwahahahahahah!! OMG, I forgot about Meerkat Manor!! What my son must already know that we haven’t discussed!!

Maybe I’ll have to couch my discussion about the birds and bees in those terms: absolutely no mating until you’ve gotten a college education and can afford your own burrow…

Heh.

Abstinence only?

Titanyum @ 36

One would have to assume that a baby feels pain when he/she is born. Does that mean we now should anesthesize babies before birth? I think we really are taking things a little too far here. There is no way to spare a fetus / baby some pain, be it either through abortion or through birth.

If pain at any stage of the life cycle was a sincere concern of our politicians, we wouldn’t be stuck in two pointless wars.

egregious #12,

I agree with you in the sense that I don’t know what “fetal pain” means. What are the parameters for defining “pain” in a fetus and can these seriously be related to subjective experience? Are we talking about the presence or absence of reflex patterns like startle response? I don’t know and would need to see the data and the studies before I could form a judgment.

The issue with pediatricians and circumcision is I think a little different. It is not that there was a feeling that newborns didn’t experience pain while being circumcised it is more that there was the belief that they didn’t remember it. This brings up the question of whether pain is pain if it is not remembered. I believe some anesthetics like ketamine work precisely on this principle.

all these people involved in MY medical decision…

sure looks just like Schiavo, doesn’t it?

OldCoastie @ 42

all these people involved in MY medical decision…

sure looks just like Schiavo, doesn’t it?

This is not a coincidence.

Crazy Horse @ 38

i would like to speak for all the egreg’d sperm:

Vasectomy hurts my categorical imperative. Please stop. Like the egg says: “It’s the woman’s choice.” I only do what i can.

“categorical imperative” Does this have to do with ‘Kant’ have an abortion?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 44

“categorical imperative” Does this have to do with ‘Kant’ have an abortion?

“John Stuart Mill, of his own free will, on a half-pint of shandy was particularly ill…”

Oklahoma kiddo @ 39

Why in the world would an otherwise rational person, vote in favor of an anti-choice candidate?

You know, I wonder that myself. I have some lovely clients, intelligent, personable, two charming kids and a charming dog. Bush/Cheney was a holy crusade to them, could *not* figure it out. What, I wondered, was it to them? If because a potential murder was *sooooooo* bad, why support the war? Religious, they were, but again, why do they pick abortion and gays to condemn, rarely see them condemning, say, the practices of lending money at interest or selling food at a profit.

It’s gotta be some right-thinking thing, some tribal or breeding plumage that indicates one’s species or membership in the group. I don’t have good radar for this sort of thing.

Crazy Horse @
38

i would like to speak for all the egreg’d sperm:

Vasectomy hurts my categorical imperative. Please stop. Like the egg says: “It’s the woman’s choice.” I only do what i can.

Who the fuck are you?

Seriously.

Hi wonderful mods!

Just a quick temporal flux warning..

Firefox, MacOS, and the servers were doing the time machine again…my 3:50 ish comment went to 3:22.

If we ever figure this out in reverse, should we go to the races? :)

Sounds like AARP SERIA CLUB DLC NARAL AFL/CIO all trying to show how well they can screw the folks.I pray there are REAL ANGLES in HEAVEN. I haven’t found any here on earth in my 70 years.

Oklahoma kiddo @
31

I see no difference between someone else deciding whether I can have a vasectomy or someone other than the woman involved deciding she cannot have an abortion.

And just who said you could have a vasectomy?

EvilDrPuma @ 46

Oklahoma kiddo @ 44

“categorical imperative” Does this have to do with ‘Kant’ have an abortion?

“John Stuart Mill, of his own free will, on a half-pint of shandy was particularly ill…”

Very utilitarian of you. I must say. Though I prefer a half-pint of tequila. Though I can visualize a shandy chaser.

EvilDrPuma @
46

Oklahoma kiddo @ 44

“categorical imperative” Does this have to do with ‘Kant’ have an abortion?

“John Stuart Mill, of his own free will, on a half-pint of shandy was particularly ill…”

“Plato, they say, could stick it away –

half-a-pint of whisky every day.”

kirk murphy @ 49

Hi wonderful mods!

Just a quick temporal flux warning..

Firefox, MacOS, and the servers were doing the time machine again…my 3:50 ish comment went to 3:22.

If we ever figure this out in reverse, should we go to the races? :)

well, I have TIVO. I could fast forward – wanna bet on Mondays’s “Worst person In The World”?

The Naral deal is so tied in with the ridiculous idea that we need to compromise with an irrational right in order to reach some fantasy common ground. Giving up basic, essential rights simply to make the right happy is the worst in strategy and tactics… sadly, DLC types have never learned this – and I think – have no interest in protecting rights, only in protecting their privilege.

Keep your laws off my body! that’s the bottom line!

James E. Thompson @
50

Sounds like AARP SERIA CLUB DLC NARAL AFL/CIO all trying to show how well they can screw the folks.I pray there are REAL ANGLES in HEAVEN. I haven’t found any here on earth in my 70 years.

“The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.” Thomas Jefferson

jayt @ 47

Crazy Horse @
38

i would like to speak for all the egreg’d sperm:

Vasectomy hurts my categorical imperative. Please stop. Like the egg says: “It’s the woman’s choice.” I only do what i can.

Who the fuck are you?

Seriously.

I am the spermvoice. I am the digital higher intelligence which comes in time of need. I am that which you dredged from the depths. I am the best 30 year old whiskey you have ever tasted. i am le gran fromage.

And i’m thankful that with a few keystrokes i can help this amazing website have real conversations about some things which might save us from oblivion. Who are you”?

Seriously.

HotFlash @
40

Rayne @ 35

Peterr — bwahahahahahah!! OMG, I forgot about Meerkat Manor!! What my son must already know that we haven’t discussed!!

Maybe I’ll have to couch my discussion about the birds and bees in those terms: absolutely no mating until you’ve gotten a college education and can afford your own burrow…

Heh.

Abstinence only?

spelunking?

Add to this mix that recent research seems to indicate that ultrasound scans are bad for the unborn; I’m not clear on the damage done, but it seems to Do Things to proper development. They’re starting to recommend not getting the cute ‘unborn child’ pictures for the baby scrapbook. And these people are encouraging it? They really care about the fetus, don’t they?

Crazy Horse says

I am the spermvoice. I am the digital higher intelligence which comes in time of need. I am that which you dredged from the depths. I am the best 30 year old whiskey you have ever tasted. i am le gran fromage.

And i’m thankful that with a few keystrokes i can help this amazing website have real conversations about some things which might save us from oblivion. Who are you”?

Seriously

I am, most certainly, not you.

The people that assert that a fetus experiences pain at 20 weeks are basing this on…science? Thought they didn’t put much stock in science.
I’m firmly in favor of sex education from the get go with kids, the earlier the better. I’d love to ask some Purity Ball parents when they are going to have the equivalent mom/son balls.

HotFlash @ 47

Oklahoma kiddo @ 39

Why in the world would an otherwise rational person, vote in favor of an anti-choice candidate?

You know, I wonder that myself. I have some lovely clients, intelligent, personable, two charming kids and a charming dog. Bush/Cheney was a holy crusade to them, could *not* figure it out. What, I wondered, was it to them? If because a potential murder was *sooooooo* bad, why support the war? Religious, they were, but again, why do they pick abortion and gays to condemn, rarely see them condemning, say, the practices of lending money at interest or selling food at a profit.

It’s gotta be some right-thinking thing, some tribal or breeding plumage that indicates one’s species or membership in the group. I don’t have good radar for this sort of thing.

Belief is simply the price of admission to a kind of upper class. It’s the price of admission to the megachurch, which is a vital part of many people’s lives. No extended family? Megachurch=family. No friends? same thing. Just believe and vote their way, and you are in.
And: It does not affect them, because a very small percentage of people are gay, and women don’t matter anyway. It says so in the Bible. (kind of kidding…mostly I’m not.)

It really has nothing to do with respect for life anyway. The wingers are all about control of others. This is just one more arena where they want to call all the shots.

jayt @ 60

Crazy Horse says

I am the spermvoice. I am the digital higher intelligence which comes in time of need. I am that which you dredged from the depths. I am the best 30 year old whiskey you have ever tasted. i am le gran fromage.

And i’m thankful that with a few keystrokes i can help this amazing website have real conversations about some things which might save us from oblivion. Who are you”?

Seriously

I am, most certainly, not you.

I too, am not he
nor is he to be me
though given the choice
yes, an outspoken spermvoice

Hi Randy,

I read your stuff on Gorbachev vs the Politburo over the getting out of Afghanistan. The parallel w/the US now is not quite perfect, in that there is no Gorby (alas), we seem to have just lots of Politburos. We just had a discussion on the very topic on the previous thread, talking about Silvestro Reyes. Not only the stupid and stubborn desire to stay on and on in the ME (and Afghanistan, too, by extension at any rate) and the alarming spectacle of voting for withdrawal asap to see it turn into plan for more troops. Threads still going on, last I knew; we’re trying to figure out if NARAL and other advocacy groups that we trust are being subverted in this thread.

BTW, if anyone’s interested, Randy (Crazy Horse) posted an interesting article from Der Spiegel on the Wurlitzer Down thread, comment # 46. Good discussion, and good history esp for Russia buffs.

Margot @
62

HotFlash @ 47

Oklahoma kiddo @ 39

Why in the world would an otherwise rational person, vote in favor of an anti-choice candidate?

You know, I wonder that myself. I have some lovely clients, intelligent, personable, two charming kids and a charming dog. Bush/Cheney was a holy crusade to them, could *not* figure it out. What, I wondered, was it to them? If because a potential murder was *sooooooo* bad, why support the war? Religious, they were, but again, why do they pick abortion and gays to condemn, rarely see them condemning, say, the practices of lending money at interest or selling food at a profit.

It’s gotta be some right-thinking thing, some tribal or breeding plumage that indicates one’s species or membership in the group. I don’t have good radar for this sort of thing.

Belief is simply the price of admission to a kind of upper class. It’s the price of admission to the megachurch, which is a vital part of many people’s lives. No extended family? Megachurch=family. No friends? same thing. Just believe and vote their way, and you are in.
And: It does not affect them, because a very small percentage of people are gay, and women don’t matter anyway. It says so in the Bible. (kind of kidding…mostly I’m not.)

I think that has a lot to do with it. It has to do with community.

new thread

Why are the prevention avenues so unclear due to ethical, religious, and personal reasons while the infantalize, patronize, and abash avenues are ready to be laid out before us?

I’m tired of the history of women’s fecundity. When it finally became medically safe enough and practical for a woman to make such decisions on her own, she ends up having to prove that she’s not proceeding selfishly, ignorantly, and/or wantonly. Does that assumption follow from the idea that she’s pregnant because she’s selfish, ignorant, and/or wanton in the first place?

Infantalize her because she’s childishly selfish; patronize her because she’s ignorant; shame her because she’s wanton.

Absolutely no effing thanks.

“Well, you see, I’ll pretend I’m at home getting ready for a date.
I take a comb, comb my hair
Take a flower, smell it, put it in my lapel
And I spot the audience!

Once my clothes were shabby
Tailors called me, “Cabbie”
Got so rough I took a vow
Said this bum’ll
Be Beau Brummel
Now I’m smooth and snappy
Now my tailor’s happy
I am the cats meow
My wardrobe is a wow!
Paris silk! Harris tweed!
There’s only one thing I need…

Got my tweed crest
Got my best vest
All I need now is the girl
Got my striped tie
Got my hopes high
Got the time and the place
And I got rhythm
Now all I need is the girl to go with’m
If she’ll
just appear we’ll
Take this big town for a whirl
And if she’ll only say, “My darling I’m yours”
I’ll throw away
My striped tie
And my best-pressed tweed
All I really need
Is the girl.

I start off easy, you see?
Now I’m more debonair…
Ssssssssssssssh! Aaaaah! Break … Now! Yeah!
And I settle here… I start this step, see?
And then I build it… Double it!
She appears all in white and I take her hand,
Kiss it and lead her on the floor…
This step’s good for the costume…Astaire’s pat!
Dah dah dah dah…Dah dah dah dah yah dah…
Now we waltz, strings come in
And I lift her…Again… Once more!
And now the tempo changes and all the lights come up
And I build for the finale
Louise, that’s it!
Come on over here…
Follow me… Faster! Charleston…
Again… Do it again! Ha!”

I said this on DailyKos, now I’ll say it here: until someone gives a clear explanation of how IRS 501(c)(3) status affects these organizations, there is an important piece of information being left out of the discussion. Anyone? If I knew, I wouldn’t be asking.

estiv @ 70

I said this on DailyKos, now I’ll say it here: until someone gives a clear explanation of how IRS 501(c)(3) status affects these organizations, there is an important piece of information being left out of the discussion. Anyone? If I knew, I wouldn’t be asking.

I’m not sure that NARAL is a 501(c)(3). There are very strict limits on political advocacy for charities, I know because I am the founder of one.

———-Bueller

From their website:

NARAL Pro-Choice America, Inc., a 501(c)(4) non-profit organization

NARAL Pro-Choice America PAC, a political action committee

The NARAL Pro-Choice America Foundation, a 501(c)(3) charitable organization founded in 1977

I’ve gotta get some sleep so if you have other questions about their 501(c)(3) status please direct them to my humble blog and I will try to get to them tomorrow.

Annotated.

egregious @ 72
From their website:

NARAL Pro-Choice America, Inc., a 501(c)(4) non-profit organization NOT TAX DEDUCTIBLE FOR DONORS, for “social welfare”

NARAL Pro-Choice America PAC, a political action committee
NOT TAX DEDUCTIBLE, CAN LOBBY

The NARAL Pro-Choice America Foundation, a 501(c)(3) charitable organization founded in 1977 REGULAR CHARITY, IS TAX DEDUCTIBLE, They will try to shove as many expenses here as they can to use up donor money.

It’s time to change the framing, so our progressive brethren who believe they have the right to inveigle themselves into medical decisions cannot use the arguments of the right.

I could no agree more, so, I shall attempt to aid weeth thees reframing, eh?

let us begin:

We have seen over the past few months here at FDL that anti-abortion sentiment is part and parcel of the Authoritarian agenda

They are no really “anti-abortion” or “pro-life”, they are how-joo-say “anti-woman“

Why in the world would an otherwise rational person, vote in favor of an anti-choice candidate?

Again, they are no “anti-choice”, they are “anti-woman“

…and joo pipples are no “pro-choice”, joo are “pro-woman“

I hope that thees has helped, no?

so.

I’m way EPU’d here,but what the hell.

Aren’t most abortions(as in the vast majority) performed while the fetus is actually an embryo?

The language of the anti-woman crowd makes it sound like abortions are done to remove a fully formed and functioning baby. I thought that the proceedure was done mostly during the first trimester,early on,so that would mean we’re speaking of embryos,not fetuses.

egregious @
74

Annotated.

egregious @ 72
From their website:

NARAL Pro-Choice America, Inc., a 501(c)(4) non-profit organization NOT TAX DEDUCTIBLE FOR DONORS, for “social welfare”

NARAL Pro-Choice America PAC, a political action committee
NOT TAX DEDUCTIBLE, CAN LOBBY

The NARAL Pro-Choice America Foundation, a 501(c)(3) charitable organization founded in 1977 REGULAR CHARITY, IS TAX DEDUCTIBLE, They will try to shove as many expenses here as they can to use up donor money.

Thanks. Now obviously I need to learn about 501(c)(4) status and its ramifications in terms of political activism.