
Well, this has to hurt:
From the very first page, in which co-chairmen James A. Baker III and Lee H. Hamilton scold that "our leaders must be candid and forthright with the American people," the bipartisan report is nothing less than a repudiation of the Bush administration's diplomatic and military approach to Iraq and to the whole region.
Throughout its pages, the report reflects the foreign policy establishment's disdain for the "neoconservative" policies long espoused by President Bush and his aides. But while many of its recommendations stem from the "realist" school of foreign policy, it is unclear at this point whether a radically different approach would make much difference nearly four years after the invasion of Iraq. (emphasis mine)
Having watched so much of the Bush and Pony Show today, I have to say that I'm not hopeful that the message — of the elections in November, of the ISG report, of the disgust of the American public — has remotely begun to sink in, or that it ever will, frankly.
I've been thinking quite a bit today about the fact that it is Pearl Harbor Day, and the efforts that this nation of ours put forward, together, during WWII, both those in uniform and those left at home, and the leadership that this required.
And I have been asking myself how a President who had so much cooperation and support in the aftermath of 9/11/01 — not just in the United States, but all over the world – could have sunk to this incredibly low level in such a short period of time, and squandered such an historic opportunity to significantly reshape how we and the rest of the world view the potential for cooperative action — in Afghanistan, in intel cooperation, in really making a dent in poverty and despair and all of the various issues which add fuel to the radical fires across the globe. And then I wonder if he asks himself that as well.
Ouch, indeed.
(And yes, I know, there were hiccups and problems, and the government wasn't perfect, and history records this issue or that, and that we ought to have gotten in earlier into the European front and…yes, I do read history and I'm giving a simplistic version for a reason, so don't send me e-mails trying to educate me about every tangential bit of history, please, I beg you. Every single thing that is ever written by me does not have to include every detail. I trust that you guys are more than intelligent enough to not only know this, but to look into things for yourselves. The point is simply this — we don't exactly have leadership at the moment worth trusting or worth putting our hearts into, now do we? And isn't that a shame, because we are sorely in need of some real leadership right now. So let me take a moment to say "Atta boy!" to Lee Hamilton for calling Congress on the carpet for failing to provide meaningful and vigorous oversight. Here's hoping for much better in January.)



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Blatcher!!!
Zero!
No fair, I read it first!
Simplistic or not, it’s also true. It may have taken us too long to get involved in WWII, but when we did, we worked for everyone. The differences between the handling of the two different wars are astounding and depressing.
I grew up in a house that overlooked Pearl Harbor. My father and his brothers served in the Navy during World War II, my grandfather worked in the reconstruction effort there.
There is simply no comparison between our government’s behavior after Dec 7, 1941 and its behavior after Sept 11, 2001. Sixty years separate the dates, but the gulf between the government’s reaction to the crises is so much bigger.
I wonder if Lee Greenwood is still proud to be an american, if at least he thinks he’s free…
BC
“squandered”
You are absolutly right.
Ouch Indeed -
Great post Christy -
The truth of the matter is that this report is going to end up on the self and then the Dems will need to lead.
And I pray they do. Heres to January
Christy, if you’re ever stuck for a humorous thread topic, you could probably post some of the emails to which you refer (with names removed, of course).
I’m trying to picture what punaise, TRex, and others could do with them. (It’s a very pretty picture, but I’m sure it would fall short of reality.)
Redd–You are exactly right–and here’s the scary part:
1) The idiot has over two years to go in office
2) The american public is beginning to see that he is seven steps worse than an empty suit…
The consequnce is that this ship is rudderless and will be for two years during a very critical time.. It’s going to be fun to watch him become a pariah- but the consequences won’t all be fun..
Some (Tom Brokow) think that the solution is to ALL PRETEND that he’s a real president.
I don’t think that’s goin to cut it. At this point not even a fawning media could keep him afloat- and they aren’t doin that any more anyway..blood in the water always gets em movin.
I remember being so happy when Blair won in 97 and ended 18 years of Tory rule. Now I just think he’s a jerk (hence Blatcher) and I’m sure he lays awake at night, wondering how he got involved in this, and why didn’t he listen to the French & Germans. Also, if you think Bush has made America less safe, think about the UK, with its large Muslim population. Playing with fire.
Does anybody have the video from Santorum’s rant yesterday?
Atta Girl, Christy!!!
Let’s Make A Deal —
If the wingnuts want to blame FDR for Pearl Harbor, the same goes for George Bush and 9/11. If FDR was derelict in protecting the country on 12/7/41, then George W Bush was derelict in protecting the country on 9/11/01. If FDR had foreknowledge of the 12/7/41 attacks, George W Bush was warned by the CIA on 8/6/01 that “Bin Laden Determined to Attack USA.”
If the wingnuts don’t want to make a deal, they can STFU.
The real irony is that Rove and CO have tried to pretend that Bush is the new FDR
“The American people expect us to come up with a new strategy,” Bush said.
Wait a minute- two weeks ago or so he was sayin he’d change his TACTICS but NEVER his STRATERGY”.
Does this reflect a change in POSITION- or just the normal Clusterfuck ignorance about the difference between strategy and tactics?
rwcole @ 14
Probably the latter.
Mr President Jr. what is the definition of insanity?
Mr President Jr. what is the definition of insanity?
Mr President Jr. what is the definition of insanity?
At one point, Clusterfuck was universally praised for his “message discipline”- he always said the SAME thing- no matter how stupid..
So have the White House message discipline police gone on a long vacation? What’s UP?
Clusterfuck’s ALL OVER THE FUCKIN PLACE now.
When the Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys realized that his dad was just a bag of stale air, but was unable to ‘fire’ him, they just disconnected the control knobs in the recording studio and let dad go on thinking that he was actually performing a function as the tracks were being laid.
Can’t something comparable be done with boosh?
He’d never even know what happened…
I have to give the devil his due and say the smackdown from Baker/Hamilton was worth watching, even though some say the report is weak and Chimp/Poodle trot blithely on to the star wars theme.
That picture made me crack up. Heehee.
So what happens if Bush keeps up his big FU to Poppy and won’t do anything recommended in the ISG report?
W, nutmegged on the pitch. I say give him a red card.
rwcole @ 14
He’s just forgotten what he said two weeks ago, and figures everyone else has forgotten, too.
Ed*ard Teller @
11
Well, it’s been burned into my brain forever. Trust me, you don’t want to see it.
ot – cnn – key witness in litvenenko case is in critical condition and in hospital – yes, it’s from radiation
On the radio a while ago, they played FDR’s “day in infamy” bit. All my life, when I’ve heard that, I’ve experienced a bit of vicarious outrage — vicarious because it was so many years removed from the event. But outrage, nonetheless.
This morning: “This is a day that will live in infamy . . . ” I only felt sadness. Because we are now like Japan was then. We too have invaded another country without justification. How can I feel resentment over Pearl Harbor when my country has given the world Shock and Awe?
I hate George W. Bush and the whores he rode in on.
And, right, I don’t see how we can keep up the charade for two more years. Impeachment of both Bush & Cheney is the only way we can regain our dignity and standing among the world of sane nations.
Clusterfuck is countin on the fact that he was able to get Blair to stand in front of the cameras with his to communicate that he and the poodle have a united front- but in fact- Blair is runnin away from Clusterfuck’s smelly old ass as fast as his feet can carry him.
Bush’s definitions:
Tactics – not showing up for duty in the Texas ANG for months, years. Skipping mandatory flight physical. Get coke bust pled down to diversion program.
Strategy – make all military and criminal records of my past disappear.
So let me take a moment to say “Atta boy!” to Lee Hamilton for calling Congress on the carpet for failing to provide meaningful and vigorous oversight.
Worst congress ever?
Clusterfuck’s new handlers are tryin vainly to paint him as a thoughtful, responsible man- who looks at all the options and listens to all ideas before making historic and great decisions…
America is laughing it’s ass off!
rizbiz @ 18
Donning tinfoil hat . . .
What makes you think that this hasn’t already been done?
Peterr @ 31
Hasn’t that been the case since day one?
mui @ 28
…and Sandra Day O’Connor for calling out the MSM for its failures on Hard
headsball.In terms of the big problems of the day–
Iraq
Deficit
Health Care
No one’s doin shit– Iraq has been left to unwind at it’s own sweet pace- no one has done a fuckin thing to improve the situation..
Ditto with everything else..
When it comes down to it- this is NOT an executive group- they behave more like “legislators” they get their big IDEAS approved- and then sit an watch em turn to shit…
Exectutives know that the work only STARTS with an approved strategy…The Clusterfuckers think it’s OVER..
That, my friends, is the difference between ideological dreamers and practical men..and this country BADLY needs some practical men right now.
Peterr @ 31
“Little Do” Scoop
Bush Asked Whether He’s ‘Still In Denial,’ Responds ‘It’s Bad In Iraq. That Help?’
BUSH: It’s bad in Iraq. That help? (Laughter)
QUESTION: Why did it take others to say it before you’ve been willing to acknowledge it to the world?
BUSH: You know, in all due respect, I’ve been saying it a lot. I understand how tough it is, and I’ve been telling the American people how tough it is. And they know how tough it is.
And the fundamental question is: Do we have a plan to achieve our objective? Are we willing to change as the enemy has changed?
Topangalib @ 13
Yeah and I think Bush thinks he is Harry Truman (one of Bush’s books that he managed to read)…
He’s looking more like LBJ during VietNam..
He was never fit to be Prez and should be impeached.
Jack
As frustrated as we are with the ISG being a distillation of wrong-headed, Washington-insider conventional wisdom, it at least has led to this article from the AP:
Just a few short months ago, hearing these words would have been unimaginable, outside the flock of rabid lambs or perhaps an Olbermann special comment.
My understanding of the day-to-day WH operation goes like this: Groups of idealogues in the WW hash out big quiestions like “should we assasinate the newly elected Hamas leaders, or just arrest them?”; or “should we drop cluster bombs on Lebanese olive groves early in the attack, or wait till the end when negotiations are underway?”
Then they bring their conclusions into the Oval office, so Bush can be “decider”.
Bush’s pressers:
Mention at least ten times that “it’s hard work”
Mention that we will bring them “to justice”
Try to be funny with lame jokes.
Try to bully the reporter who asked the questions…
Embarass (sp) the nation
Jack
Has anyone seen deputy leader dick lately. I think he’s letting junior swing cuz he’s pissed over his buddy the senile madman gettin’ the ax.
OT but worthy, I think:
For those of us who are at the sandman movies when Late Night FDL comes on, last night TRex gave an us an opportunity to express our compassionate liberalism.
It’s a fundraiser for Tommy Yum and family to help with the huge medical bills from Esten’s illness. Esten is three years old and is being treated for leukemia.
A while ago I sent my own contribution (ending in .03 to indicate where you want it to go) via the PayPal link up and to the right. Even though I am a devout atheist, it gave me a warm spiritual glow.
Give yourself some of that glow for the Holiday Season! You can ease the very real burdens of one very real family. You know what to do . . .
Jack at -37
Why won’t the country demand impeachment? If Bush & Cheney are impeached and heaven knows their is ample evidence to bring such Articles – we have Nancy Pelosi in the Oval office. Sure works for me.
klyde @ 41
On Barnicle last night, they said he smiled after his buddy from Wyoming (Simpson) made
a joke…
Jack
“a stretcher, for his balls?”
If ya want to typify the Clusterfuck presidency- the “Mission Accomplished” moment will do it nicely..
Celebrating victory before the work had even started is just way too typical for this pampered pile of shit.
brit reporter sticking it to chimpy story on CNN tv
newspaperbrat @ 43
I think they will eventually.. I’m hoping
the Libby trial kicks in to nail his sorry arse.
Jack
This line from the last thread sires some skepticism.
How else does the sponser sell an unknown? The EvilDrPuma amplifies the distinction…
Voters are conversing with a corporate machine about who runs their lives. Typically, one culture has to give way for the good of the machine. Even if the machine is replaced, it’s just newer and less tested. It still represents the authority vested in the rule of law but is is still a machine. And machines are still controlled by a relatively few people for the purpose of their own continuity. When the status quo is threatened — the machine is directed at the touchpoint of change. Since enough people want change now, the machine takes the onus for administering its continuity and will attempt to change direction. Usually that entails leaving the tracks. That seems to be happening now.
“Why won’t the country demand impeachment?”
They aren’t ready yet- but that could change very quickly.. keep yer ear to the ground.
“We’re all Americans now” – Le Monde 9 – 12 – 2001
rwcole @ 50
and a prayer to the patron saint of “lost
causes”
Jack
A true EPU’d comment – you passed me by while I was typing it.
Evil Parallel Universe @ 219
rwcole @ 50
Can a sitting president and vice president be impeached at the same time???
Spokesman for Bush:
Well, so much for the ISG report…
Heartbreaking story by Ben Weideman on cnn about the fleeing Iraqis…
Great post, Christy. And great pic! Reminds me of the time all too many years ago I watched from close up as a fellow gymnast forget to keep his feet tightly together when doing a back flip from a handstand on the parallel bars. I still shudder at the memory.
Anyhoo, moving on briskly.
What truly scares me is the thought that Georgie Boy, now that goals of his neocon fantasy have circled the bowl and are all but disappeared down into the trap, sees as his only hope of “redemption” the bringing to fruition of the premillenial dispensationalist scenario that is at the core of his religiosity. The battle of Armageddon, the thousand year rule by the Anti-Christ, and all that. What hath “God” wrought?
EPU
Thoughtful and penetrating- thanks.
kemo @
55
disgusting.
Wow, it is pouring the snow down here today — but it is a little too warm for it to stick, so it’s just breautiful without the messy driving. And I just got word from a friend whose wife has been dealing with chemo that her latest MRI was very good. Sometimes, you just have to share the happy news with everyone. :)
EPU — Your test for a fascist state is a good one. But just because the Dems won doesn’t mean the party in power lost. Think of Sirota’s description of The People Party vs The Money Party, which TeddySanFran has talked about and — I will point out, in true EPU spirit — I have been talking about for some time.
The test will be proven by what the Democrats do when they actually get in there. Will the K Street Project endure in a new iteration?
angie @ 56
Oh, my…
I’ll try to fing it on the website.
It’s just tragic how we caused Iraq to become such a living nightmare for the people there.
Oh, and btw…
Hi, angie.
Hi, everyone.
A fellow atheist! Greetings!
I gave this morning (plus .03).
With apologies to the various deists here at the lake, evil is man made, and so is good.
It is not fear of damnation that drives me, nor a need to balance the bad that I have been party to. I can’t save all the children, but if I can help this one I will have done a small thing. All of us together can do a great thing.
I am happy for you and your friend, Christy.
hiya atdnext!
twolf1 @
24
Here’s an update from MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16087859/
Christy Hardin Smith @ 60
Glad to hear that…
Oh, and great post, Christy.
: )
It just hurts me that there’s a good possibility that Bush will simply dismiss the findings of the ISG in the same manner that he dismissed the lesson he supposedly learned from last month’s “thumpin’”.
the seventh sign of the apocalypse: Nancy Grace the guest on Glen Beck
jeffreyw — awesome. There are a lot of atheists as well as non-atheists here at the Lake. We get along quite well, I think, mutual respect and all.
“evil is man made”
As Twain said “Man is the only animal that blushes- or needs to”
So in that way- evil is man made-
On the other hand- if you are combating a platonic view concerning the idea of the good- well then yer doin metaphysics.
Christy, I have to ask: do you get more time in your timezone than we do out West? Seeing what you’ve posted today (the sheer number, volume, and quality of your posts) as well as the terrific comments — well, it makes me wonder how much more time there must be available from EST clocks than there is out here in PST!
Seriously, thanks for all you do here, Christy, and to all the commenters as well. What a wonderful place the ‘lake is on a cool December morn. Well, any morn, actually, but this one’s a cool clear December day.
Thanks to Peanut, and Mr. ReddHedd for sharing you with us!
Christy, thanks for reporting that good news.
twolf1 @ 67
Oh. my! So a CNN-HN anchor will be the “guest” on another CNN-HN show…
I guess it doesn’t help when you let your other network get overrun by such hotheads.
JPL @ 54
Yes, or a VP can simply be indicted first. The president can’t be tried for a crime except by impeachment, but that doesn’t apply to the VP.
it is indeed sad to think, on this 65th anniversary of pearl harbor, just how false and base our government has become.
christy, you asked what happened after 9/11. i’m here to tell you it went EXACTLY as planned: use military intervention as a domestic political tool to smother the opposition party; use the forever war to dole out mindboggling contracts to campaign-contributing contractors, whether or not they could deliver the goods and services; infect the body politic with a viral fear that supports the emasculating of our civil liberites and constitutional rights.
chaos was not the result of the incompetence here. chaos was the goal. war is good business? chaos is better, because it doesn’t come with an exit strategy.
what truly sucks is that there will never be anyone held accountable for this age of unreason and decline. impeachment? don’t make me laugh. within a few years, they’ll all be lauded as elder statesmen. if you don’t think so, look at the ISG lineup. the very folks who are supposed to make the administration safe for consumption again are mostly felons from the reagan-bush era.
It’s still pretty warm here– (58 degrees headed for 70 or so) but the light makes it clear that it’s december–it’s low in the sky -diffuse–half hearted in it’s brilliance..
One can understand primitive man thinking that he was seeing the death of a year;.
twolf1 @ 66
What was that comment that Ann Coulter made (jokingly) about blowing up the NYT?
Just sayin’.
Flipping through channels the other day I caught a clip of Dustin Hoffman as Rainman saying, “I’m an excellent driver”. And Bush’s face flashed before my eyes.
I’m probably late with this comment because I expected nothing from the ISG, and I think that is what we got. I didn’t study it very carefully so I have read some comments. One comment was on ThinkProgress, I believe, where Sen. Russ Feingold was quoted as saying that the ISG was composed of people who supported the Iraq invasion and all of the witnesses were originally supporters as well. So we get a lot of “shoulds” in the recommendations.
In addition, we are now apparently getting elected Dems saying that we should up the combat troops in Iraq. I am choking on the lack of clarity in viewing Nov. 7; we didn’t vote to increase the troops.
Anyway, whatever “scolding” that Lee Hamilton has done is (to note a cliche) too little too late. I don’t think that it was more than a “tsk-tsk.”
Bush is an “excellent decider”
rwcole @ 69
I’m no philosopher but I agree pretty much with the notion that there are things in themselves, and there are judgments about things. Evil is a judgment.
Teddy at 70 — thank you. *blush* But I’m just trying to live up to the high standards you guys expect. (And I’ve been running around the house decorating for Christmas because we are having a cocktail party here this weekend…so I’m just glad the posts have been coherent, because I’ve been writing in the rest gaps between decorating and watching the hearing and the presser. *g* Busy day here at my house, let me tell ya!)
SusanD @ 77
at least rainman could do “the math”
Redshift @ 73
Thanks, The worse nightmare would be Cheney as pres.
TeddySanFran @ 70
Speak for yourself, Teddy!
At my end of the lake, it’s shaping up to be a WARM, clear December day. ; )
OK, and you’re still my hero, Teddy. : )
I don’t think so. Unlike other presidents who visibly aged under the pressures of the office, Bush didn’t start looking older until his poll numbers started dropping. I don’t think he asks himself anything beyond “how will this affect my historical legacy,” which is part of the reason it’s so important to him that we not call it a civil war or say it’s a failure. He’s never given any indication that he cares at all about anyone but himself.
I think this is a fair deal for WingNuts.
Perhaps, out of the goodness of their hearts, (such as there are), they will consider a few more “bipartisan” concessions on our liberal behalf.
We’ll even refrain from pointing out that George Bush could not even do what Saddam Hussein did very successfully, which was keep al Quada out of his country, or at least he did until we toppled him and the Bush administration took over security in that country too.
In return, I just ask that the WingNuts be couth enough not to mention that FDR, while recuperating in warm springs Georgia, received a memo in October 1941 entitled “Emperor Hirohito determined to strike at Hawaii.”
And please don’t remind anyone about the fact that FDR’s transition team received exhaustive intelligence reports and briefings from Herbert Hoover’s national security team outlining
– the Imperial Japanese Military’s training facilities and techniques;
– the Imperial Japanese Military’s history of actions against U.S. interests;
– the precise nature of potential future Imperial Japanese Military attacks;
– the Imperial Japanese Military’s planning and intentions to engage in further attacks against the U.S.; and
(Would that they could be so charitable to) — Ignore the fact that Herbert Hoover’s national security team never really did ask FDR’s A.G. to drastically cut anti-terrorism funds and agent resources so that FDR’s Justice Dep’t could redeploy the
Bin Laden task force“Japensese Military task force” special agents to investigate domestic “eco-terrorism” while also reassigning other agents to work on interstate pornography and vice investigations.Here’s to bipartisanship!
slainte,
cl
can’t be there, but I was hearetened by this email received today:
JPL @ 83
You need one of those “Impeach Cheney First!” bumper stickers! *g*
Redshift @ 73
I suppose that’s the logic behind the order of succession, to provide for the circumstance when the president and vice president — or more than that — are “unavailable” to perform their duties.
pun
Tester interests me more than any other freshman senator in years… I’m looking forward to seeing if he lives up to what appears to be a LOT of promise.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @
65
Chimpy: Nuclear technology in the hands of Islamic terrrists is dangerous. In the hands of sociopathic former Commies, not a real threat to me personally.
-GSD
SusanD @ 77
Heh, now you’ve got me thinking of Jeff Bridges in Starman. Bush says go on green, on yellow (caution light) go very fast.
rwcole @ 90
I like Tester, and not just because he’s the only national politician I’ve met in person.
pun
How does he appear in person?
On TeeVee he seems ta be a MOUNTAIN.
There are two things to keep in mind about the Iraq Study Group report.
First, since Baker and Hamilton began making appearances on the media pundit circuit in the run up to the November elections, Bush has done several things to minimize the ISG’s impact. If the elections results had been at all positive for him and the Republicans, Rumsfeld would still be Secretary of Defense and the ISG wouldn’t even be a comma to a footnote. As it was, he said that he would only look at those proposals which were consistent with his goal of victory/success in Iraq. He put together as an alternative to the ISG competing Iraq policy groups in the White House and the Pentagon. Based on the Hadley memo and his meeting with Prime Minister Maliki in Jordan, he has tried to preempt the ISG with a “new” policy initiative. Finally, after receiving the report yesterday, he said that he no doubt would agree with parts of it and disagree with others, although the report specifically states it needs to be taken as a whole and enacted in a coordinated fashion.
Bush’s attitude toward the ISG report reminds me of how he acted and reacted to the 911 Commission report. He ignored it, then gave it grudging half-hearted limited reluctant support, then embraced its conclusions in general, and proceeded to ignore almost all of them. So I think it is entirely expectable that Bush will accept only those recommendations that he is absolutely forced to or which he had already decided upon.
Second, the ISG report is not a “people’s” report reflecting the views and concerns of the public and voters but is the product of the traditional foreign policy Establishment. In short, while the ISG repudiates Bush and the neoccons, it does not represent us or mainstream America. The report also contains a fatal flaw. It characterized the ongoing violence in Iraq as a sectarian conflict and not a civil war. I have said in the past that you can not solve a problem if you do not see or refuse to accept what it is. As I pointed out yesterday, civil war vs sectarian conflict is not a semantic but a fundamental distinction. A sectarian conflict implies two or more groups fighting each other but with a central government that has not taken sides. In a civil war, the central government if it still exists is run by one of the sides in the conflict. In Iraq, the central government is not impartial. It is run and dominated by the Shia, one of the parties to the “sectarian conflict”. This is why Iraq is in civil war and why it is highly unlikely the Baker/Hamilton ISG plan will work. In theory, the ISG wishes to strengthen the central government and promote reconciliation. In practice, it will strengthen the Shia and push for Sunni surrender. Herein lies the problem. Why should the Sunnis acquiesce in their own defeat?
I never expected anything from the Iraq Study Group other than providing political cover for getting out of Iraq, so I was actually pleasantly surprised at how good the recommendations are (even if they have loopholes big enough to drive a truck through.)
The one thing I think it accomplished, in combination with the election, was changing the terms of the debate. No one but Bush is pretending things are getting better in Iraq. There’s no longer any hint of Bush being strong and resolute vs. maybe someone else trying to come up with a plan, it’s Bush swimming against the tide, with a significant debate about whether he’s just stubborn or whether he’s delusional.
sure it’s petty, but check out the snark at Salon.com:
Iraq is “quickly becoming the largest” refugee crisis in the world and could “soon overtake the refugee crisis in Darfur,” according to a new report by Refugees International. “Last month, the UN estimated that 100,000 people were fleeing the country each month, with the number of Iraqis now living in other Arab countries standing at 1.8 million.”
Updated to add some missing words. I can’t type at speech speeds.
Well, Johnson lost Cronkite. Bush has lost Friedman. He’s run out of Friedman units.
Imus Scroll down to the instant replay section. It starts with a segment of David Gregory and Tony Snow.
Power paraphrasing some excerpts (very roughly at times):
Report accused them of malpractice of foreign policy….Accuses them of incompetence in the prosecution of the war and leaving open a diplomatic vacuum in the Middle East….I think it is a very accurate diagnosis….It’s been pretty clear to me for a while that this thing is not working. In fact it’s failing …and that we need to dramatically change course…. We have to set a date, a clear and defined date circled on a calendar when we will leave Iraq.
We don’t have dime’s bit of hope of getting any cooperation from anyone out there….until and unless we set a firm date for leaving….We will not get any cooperation until they have to stare at a clear date 3, 6, 9 months when will certainly be gone.
Iran has us exactly where Iran wanted us…Bleeding.
The minute we say we’re leaving, we’re saying you win, you’ve won Southern Iraq.
There will be certaily be a civil war.
We’ve provided a floor under them for their civil. The place won’t go completely crazy as long as we are there.
Once we are gone, they will no longer pay wholesale for their violence, they’ll have to pay retail.
The minute they thing (arab states) we’re leaving, they will have to face the threat that this will cross their borders.
I’m just not afraid to leave anymore.
We are part of the problem. The American occupation is an occupation to many Iraqi people.
You’ve got to set a date right now.
To say we shouldn’t talk to Iran or Syria is nuts.
The morning after we leave there is no question there will be Sunni Shiite violence.
Sometimes people just have to have their civil war. That’s what happened in Lebanon.
I’m not convinced a civil war will blow up the whole region.
Imus: What was the point?
TF: This has failed. There is nothing that we will produce in the short term that we will be proud of.
What I don’t want to do is throw more good lives after good lives.
This isn’t about training, not the way, but the will. It’s not about training. It about whether you have the will of a majority to live together.
Shame on me for hoping that Iraqis wanted a different country. The trouble is a democratic power sharing choice is everybody’s second choice in Iraq. The Kurds want independence. The Sunnis want the country back. The Shiites want to rule the entire country. Democracy is everybody’s second choice.
We lost. It’s a tragedy. But it’s over. We cannot go on wasting more money and sacrificing more lives for a result that we will not be proud.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Bush walked out of that office and curled up in a fetal position under his bed with Barney.
There is no way of creating some kind of salvagable outcome is by gaining some leverage. The only leverage we have is the fear of increased violence.
the country right now is one really bad day from saying Mr. President we’re out of here.
This can only break if there is a break in the republican party, if a group of republicans tell Bush that it is over.
THe election said that we’d said we were with you on this, that injecting some democracy into the middle east, but it hasn’t worked out.
In the end I love my country more than they love theirs. The American people believe it is time to leave.
punaise @ 87
Now the theocons want to outlaw dating? Or is it a plot by the CorporateCons, who just want marriages to be arranged by Couples-R-Us, Inc.?
My local all news radio station cut in while Bush was talking to summarize that he’s not going to change anything and he’s not going to talk to Iran or Syria and then went to weather and traffic. Take that!
It’s embarrasing that some people in this country are responsible for that babbling, arrogant, beligerant, fifthwit being the “President”. Sickening.
On the money, Christy! I truly believe our only hope is to impeach as many Bushdogglers as we possibly can. They’ve binged on arrogance. Now, it’s our turn to purge.
–gg
http://www.seriouskidding.com
rwcole @ 94
he’s tall and, uh, solidly built. very personable. met him at a fundraider in SF this summer. he took the time to chat with everybody who approached him.
newspaperbrat @
43
I’m with you. I fully believe that IF Bush refuses to enact the ISG recommendations that we need to impeach both Bush and Cheney and do it quickly. I guess with the support of Baker et al, I’m wondering whether his viewpoints could help to persuade some on the right to join in for impeachment. After all, it seems that one of the things that was passionately conveyed during the report was that Bush MUST communicate with his enemies. If he refuses, then he should be GONE. And no way will Cheney go against Bush’s policies, so he needs to go too. Hmmmmm, by then it would be President Pelosi, eh? Velllllllly interesting!!
DemWoman
OT, but the Dixie Chicks received THREE Grammy nominations for “Not Ready to Make Nice”
http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBI…..index.html
Peterr @ 100
the wingers practice speed-hating.
I forget who said it, but it’s still true:
The problems we face will not be solved by the minds that created them
avenging_angel @ 105
FABULOUS! I just love ALL THE SONGS on that album…
That’s one reason why I had been running up the bill on my music downloads lately. ; )
Great editorial on Iraq today from Joe Galloway of McClatchy (formerly Knight-Ridder):
Galloway has more experience with the military than a think-tank full of neocons. Read the whole thing, really.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 81
Our live-cut and lightly-dusted tree was delivered last nite at 9pm. Today, sitting in the sunlite up atop the kitchen table, she is regal and prideful of her place (high ceilings, small flat, best solution by far!) Last year, her much taller and fatter predecessor was heavily flocked in PINK, and we are happier with the light white dusting we ordered instead for 2006. A few lightstrings actually work from last year — planned obsolescence, anyone? We’ll shop for new strings when we agree on a colour and theme. Oh, and the cocktail bar is always open ‘ere one way or another!
But, my heart is still heavy. No one in Washington DeeCee seems to like my idea:
Troops
Home
NOW
twolf1 @ 98
yeah, twolf1 and how in the heck does that improve security or win hearts and minds??? So many are fleeing– internally and externally– and nobody in the admin is acknowledging this. These refugees are not being treated as such by Jordan and are being sent back into Iraq and the US does not give them refugee status either. How much of a burden is this on the neighboring countries? Syria & Jordan are not rich. I think these refugees are our responsibility as we are the occupying power in Iraq.
And thanks Hugh at 95– you are right.
Pun
Lovable gentle giant- or is there just a hint of threat there?
punaise @ 97:
I put my coffee down before clicking through the Salon ad – I’ve learned from experience.
And the line about the doula volunteer? Priceless.
TeddySanFran @ 110
Well, Joe Galloway does, at least. Pity he’s not in charge.
Here’s a horrifying possibility, raised by a chatter with Dana Priest this morning:
Off Topic?
On CNN just now was the Lynn Redgrave commercial where she “refuses” to die of breast cancer. Does that commercial piss anyone else off but me?
It’s all very easy for a wealthy movie star to refuse to die of something treatable. But to rub it in the face of millions of viewers who goddamit don’t have insurance is beyond insufferable.
Hugh @95:
In Slate, Fred Kaplan’s take on the ISG Report is different yet complementary to yours:
Full article here. Worth a read I think.
http://www.slate.com/id/2154990/nav/tap1/
Teddy
It would be way too much irony if Saddam ended up back in power at the end of all this- he should have put himself on the ballot.
rwcole @ 112
I couldn’t definitively judge from that one conversation with Tester, but I sensed a courage of convictions and not a little bit of outrage with the mess we’re in.
shorter version: he’s one of the good guys
Pun
Yeah- and he also appears to have some pretty good political sense..He could easily become a leader in a very short period of time- particularly if he’s got a “don’t mess with me” foundation under the obvious warmth.
Teddy– I still think of that possibility too and then what would the chimp’s legacy look like?
It could happen and whew boy.
angie–it’s interesting but pretty unlikely–the majority shiites would likely not embrace the concept..
We saw him cite “the conditions on the ground” language today in the Blair/Bush presser this morning.
redshift you be right. that’s a smokin good column.
Redshift @ 109
Another horrifying result of this ill-conceived war (via The Guardian):
Pretty soon, this emerging refugee crisis could match the collossal calamity of Darfur…
Thank you, President Bush, for turning the lives of the Iraqi people into such a living hell on earth.
Redshift @ 96
I agree that the principal benefit of the ISG may simply be to start a process of withdrawal from Iraq and that once that process has started the pressure to continue it and complete it will be inexorable. I think Bush still hopes he can PR his way out of any serious change in his Iraq policy. He is wrong in this but his efforts likely will slow our efforts to withdraw from Iraq.
My friends ask why I seem so in love with this woman (Arianna). And I am compelled to say; it’s not the woman stupid, it’s her brain. Of course since these are my friends, I feel a compunction to omit the word stoopid.
“Hillary’s too vane to be president”
WHILE THE country is urgently engaged in finding a way out of the quagmire in Iraq, Hillary Rodham Clinton is busy holding private dinners for key Democrats from primary states and remaining curiously silent on the subject of Iraq. Indeed, as she has transformed herself over the last few years from first lady to presumptive presidential front-runner, the profile that has emerged is that of a politician more comfortable following than leading.
http://www.latimes.com/news/op…..ion-center
The ISG has accomplished something. They have made “staying the course” a not viable political option. Whatever happens has to be something different- and radically different.
The ball’s in Clusterfuck’s hands- dems won’t make a move until he does- and hopefully he’ll leave his king exposed…
I see this as a high level chess match fer all the marbles.
If you can force your opponent to abandon a defensive position of comfort and take a chance – you’ve accomplished a lot.
LindaR – The party in power did lose. There can be no question about that.
I don’t disagree that Dems will have to walk the walk, and that is the true test.
But corporations have always had political interests and political power, and I think it is a question of degree and I don’t expect or demand it go away. I wouldn’t mind there being a law that forbade corporation political contributions (might have a free speech issue, but I still wouldn’t mind it). Corporations have always had an interest in and influence on government policies, and I don’t have a problem with that, the issue for me, as I would guess it is for most, is the extent to which the interests of corporations are put ahead of the interests of all people seemingly as a result of contributions – which isn’t really a great way to go about formulating or implementing policies.
Note (to all, not LindaR): This brings up another of my issues with the fascist meme here – the use of the words “corporatism” and “corporatist.” In fascism, the term “corporatism” DOES NOT refer to corporations (as in limited liability companies), but to segments of society that were to be represented in the gov’t, and those segments included labor as well as business owners (corporations), the church, the military, etc. But I think many use the word “corporatist” specifically b/c it is term that is associated with fascism – as if use of the word proves the point. Not so much.
So, if you could, please use the words “corporationism” or “corporatist.” We might even be old school, and use terms like “plutocracy” and “plutocrats,” which would get beyond corporations to other masters of repug K Street.
OT – a driveby update while I’m near near a computer.
I left the US last January in a sort of fury at the seeming acquiesence of Americans to live with this infliction of chaos and suffering on the rest of the world. I wasn’t sure that I wanted to live with those who were more absorbed in their getting and spending than anything else (sorry for the judgemental tone, but I was living in Kansas).
So, on flying into San Fran last Sat., I was surprised at the sweet joy of seeing that blessed coast, bathed in sunlight. (Still, was a bit overwhelmed with the much of muchness, even in the airport. Like way too much frosting on the cake.)
Now, I’m leaving Seattle after testifying in a case stemming from something that happened to me in 1979 (Yes, I was stunned to find myself summoned back for that.) Many good memories here, but still find the amount of stuff in stores here overwhelming.
I’m heading to see my mother in Fresno now; she’s rallied again after a scare early this week, and so I plan to see her tomorrow, even though she likely won’t know it is me. She’s a sweet Mennonite woman, even in her dementia and illness, and is light itself. Even in her decline, she shows the way to live.
Good to know that I can dip in here and get updated more quickly than other sources (can’t figure out how to operate the four remotes near the tv at the place that I’m staying, so haven’t watched tv).
EPU-
What are the rules for the word profitist
:-)
I’m the least likely to be assumed to be favorable to corporations but I am. I understand the double edge of free speech. I know that some will always seek more than their fair share of money, power, control or influence but all of this needs a fair chance to be countered.
We need checks and balance.
LindaR @ 116
You know, I hadn’t thought of it that way – but I should have.
Very good point.
I so called centrist and right of center “main-stream” Democratic politicos want to hand the WH to the Republicans in 2008, they can do this by forcing Hillary down our throats
Oklahoma kiddo @ 133
Couldn’t agree more. How do we stop Hillary.
In simple terms, The ISG was written for adults.
Bush is a child, therefore, he will pick up his toys and rudely do what he wants…
The war is unwinnable, I believe, and we should
follow Feingold’s lead…
Jack
NZ Expat – safe travels
rumi – One rule: Don’t use it. Otherwise next thing you know they’re calling you a socialist if not a communist, which never works out well in American politics.
LindaR @ 116
No… It pisses me off as well.
What about all those women who can’t afford such expensive treatment? I guess they don’t have a choice… They just have to “accept” that they “have to die of breast cancer”…
How about allowing them to have the health coverage that will pay for such treatment?
Bay State Librul @ 135
I think that the ISG report, however, is somewhat like the voice of a parent, reminding the rude child that these aren’t HIS toys to toss around and use whenever and wherever he likes. They sure as hell aren’t his to break.
Of course, it will take more than some words from dear old Uncle James to get through to Bush. That’s why having neighbors who refuse to countenance spoiled behavior – like Feingold, Murtha, and others like them – is so important.
It takes a village to rein in a brat.
I’m not very hopeful either. They might be hearing the message, but they are rejecting it. Because when a paranoid fanatic true-believer has control (Cheney), in his eyes it’s the rest of the world who are blind fools.
As Seymour Hersh says in the New Yorker,
Bay State Librul @ 135
All I have to say about it (Amend. XXV):
Now how can we do the same for madman Cheney as well?
Oh, and many thanks to Teddy for providing this linky yesterday.
New contest! Write your own ISG recommendations!
Examples from the link:
Implement phased withdrawal of all media access
Rapidly train Iraqi security forces in use of butterfly knives
Try to meet insurgents halfway by burning own effigies of Bush
Topangalib @ 134
By unifying around an acceptable candidate. Giving money and time to this candidate. Soon! Letters to editors, emails etc. to anyone who might listen to why our candidate is the person to calm these turbulent waters. Spreading the word about why our candidate will win the WH in 2008. And there are other ways. Starting temporary blogs, for example, with the aim of highlighting the positive aspects of our position and most importantly our candidate. And presenting Hillary’s record in a thoughtful, non-demeaning manner.
Present arguments which reassure people who are frightened for their children that there is a way out.
Fresh thread, all — Swopa has a look at the ISG, Iraq and responsibility. And it’s well worth a read and then some.
klyde @
41
I remember Rayne saying a big shredder truck had arrived at his *house* a week or so ago.
twolf1 @ 67
Thanks for the warning! ;~)
Hi NZExPat @30,
So nice to hear from you. Hope all your flying and testifying is as pleasant as it can be. It was deQuincy who said, that we never knowingly see a place for the last time without feeling sad, even a place we do not like. And I don’t think you’ve quite written off the US of A. Hugs.
So glad you have the chance to say hi to your mum, it’s a gift. And thanks for helping to fix the US — as LindaR said the other day,
.
LindaR, may I use this on a T-shirt?
NOTHING,will change, this whitewash ISG committee is not bipartisan and certainly not looking out for the peoples interest. Their agenda is to cover everyones ass no matter whow many more people we lose in this futile war.You certainly can’t call Lee Hamilton a Democrat so where is the Bi-Partisonship.
Mid-East Oil – Conspiracy or Required Policy Consideration?
It’s time to discuss the topic of Mid-East oil openly.
The vast majority of foreign nations opine that oil is why we occupied Iraq. Iraqi’s say we’re there for the oil.
The American press and even the blog-o-sphere avoid the subject as if “oil” means a conspiracy theory, and all conspiracy theory’s are whacky. If Iran, Iraq, Saudi, Kuwait, Qatar did not have two thirds of the earths’ oil resources and potentially need allied forces in the region we would not be there.
How and how big to plant American military resources in the mid east is a natural question. It is not remotely a conspiracy.”Keeping the straights of Hormuz open is in the US nat’l security interests,” is a Ted Kennedy quote.
Having a Texas yahoo blow up Iraq without a plan to secure the peace so that his friends and close personal allies could profit, that specific set of facts is a conspiracy. (see Cheney’s secret meeting)
However, that we’re in the mid east for oil is a fact, not a conspiracy and it should be openly discussed because decisions and policy have to acknowledge “oil.”
Why does everybody keep acting as if the word “impeachment” mustn’t even be thought of, let alone be said? President Cheney would have enough sense to know when he’s really in trouble.
Today Bush sounded like a wind-up toy, mindlessly repeating the same words, even when faced with complete rejection of what he’s been selling for 3 years… We are bringing victory, success and democracy to Iraq and you must never talk to your enemies.