
I have to say I just do not understand this. Fred Vincy did some digging in Lexis/Nexis and found some information on Nancy Keenan's background not available on the web (from a January 1, 1990 Boston Globe article):
For many public officials, personal conviction that abortion is wrong does not extend to public responsibility. "As a Catholic, I accept the teaching of my church on abortion. That is my personal religious belief . . . As a public official, there is no question in my mind that depriving women of the right to follow their conscience is the same as imposing religious beliefs," Montana's school superintendent, Nancy Keenan, said in a Dec. 5 letter when questioned by her bishop.
Now I respect people who believe that their personal religious views should not become the basis for law, and who nonetheless respect the individual's right to make their own decisions regarding their bodies. But after yesterday's weird decision by Keenan (contra Planned Parenthood) not to challenge Brownback's fetal anesthesia bill, it's worth thinking about the wisdom of hiring someone to head an organization who believes that the right she is tasked with defending is a mortal sin.
As Amanda Marcotte says:
See, philosophically and logically, the right to an abortion is based in the right to your bodily autonomy. However, on the political side, a lot of Americans are swayed by a combination of uneasiness with sex, sexism, and religious belief to be more fascinated by the red herring discussion of when life begins. Which means that whoever is going to be in leadership positions in the abortion rights leadership needs to be firmly committed to opposing all attempts to define fetuses as some sort of pseudo-citizens, in that they don’t have names or rights, except the one right no real citizen has, which is the right to commandeer another person’s body for your sustenance against their will.
Over at Brendan Calling, Brendan Skwire also writes about his email exchange with Carolyn Treiss of CT-NARAL, in which she expresses a whole lot of frustration with the national PAC's endorsement of Joe Lieberman (totally undermining everything that Treiss and others in Connecticut were doing to get Plan B contraception mandated in publicly funded hospitals).
Writes Treiss:
Of course NARAL Pro-Choice America is not going to publicize the fact that the state affiliate doesn’t agree with their endorsement. It undermines their credibility and ability to raise money. We also disagree with their endorsements in the Murphy/Johnson and Simmons/Courtney Congressional races, but they don’t tell you that either.
Unhappiness with Nancy Keenan's leadership, or lack thereof, does not seem to be limited to the blogosphere. There is something very wrong about this woman being the head of the most prominent pro-choice rights group in the country, and more and more people seem to be coming to the same conclusion.



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Fitz
Fitz, Dammit.
notimetowaste –
I guess not. Dammit.
So, how does one come to be the leader of NARAL? Is she elected? Appointed? By whom?
yeah there’s somethin odd about sayin:
“I consider this a mortal sin but I’ve made access to it my life’s work..”
OT — Mrs. K8, if you come by, I left you a blockquote and a better link at the end of the last post.
Hmmm.
How long has Keenan been in this position? And who suggested her?
Is this like the attempt to turn the Air Force into a wingnut theocratic institution by undermining it from within?
Fer cryin’ out loud. What have we come to when we have to start suspecting every major institution of having been infiltrated by people employing all manner of spy-ops?
Mike Barnacle/Hardball showed clip of Baker interview – “can bush turn180degrees?” “pres have turned 180 before. bush wants to do this in a bipartisan manner and this is the vehicle to do that.”
oh, and he also said bush was conflicted.
Oh- I thought he said AFFlicted.
Individual women do not need me, a man, or for that matter another woman, dictating what she can do with her body in respect to abortion.
Kathryn in MA @ 9
As if we give a hoot in hell for Dubya’s personal angst about this!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 11
Period.
The leader of NARAL who once made a public statement that she personally accepts the Catholic Church’s “teachings” on abortion.
Very helpful to know.
I wonder how many NARAL donors are aware of this?
I had been really struggling to understand what could possibly explain NARAL’s positions on Lieberman, Chafee, and the fetal pain bill.
What were NARAL’s motives?
We may be moving a bit closer to answering this question.
OK, so does she have a problem defending choice? If so, why is she the head of a pro-choice organization?
Obviously there is a lot more to educate about and defend than the single issue of whether abortion is legal or not. It becomes a grand exercise in self deception when the appropriateness for having a large responsibility covering diverse but contiguous issues is justified by one’s stance on one point to the exclusion of the rest.
I had said that Keenan was probably a devout Catholic and defending her deep convictions to my female friends in CT when the Lieberman thingie came up– I was shot down.
heh, and thanks Jane.
I do respect religious rights and opinions, but HELLO?!
Olbermann: The Iraq report is “all things to all people”. I’m so damn sick of this political s’t.
Mario Cuomo voiced almost exactly the same thing in a speech at Notre Dame back in the 1980s, and I’d guess Keenan quoted/paraphrased him in her letter above. In Cuomo’s view (and the view of other Catholics who defend pro-choice laws), the question of a woman having the right to make personal decisions about her own body is just as much a religious question as the one of abortion.
How someone balances these two competing religious questions is what this comes down to. Some Catholics make the argument that a man forcing a woman to bear a child that could endanger her own health, make bearing future children impossible, or was the product of rape is a mortal sin as well.
So, which mortal sin are you willing to support as public policy, and which do you fight against?
It seems Cuomo was consistent in his answer, but apparently Nancy is not.
Linda –
Thanks, sweetie!
I’m enjoying the comments left there, too. Very interesting. Seems there are still some raw memories of the Molly Maguires.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 11
Agreed! But looks like there is work to be done in the area of keeping other folks from trying to do so. And NARAL endorsements do help candidates get elected. I’m sure lots of women my age felt reassured by NARAL’s endorsement of Rape Gurney Joe.
As in every other arena, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance — which reminds me, thank you, O Great and Invisible Mod(s).
Ok, off to see Keith now. I love Keith!
*xyz @
14
I think we may be.
Whoa!! Baker just said we talk to our enemies!! just as we did for 40 years with the USSR!
Kathryn in MA @ 24
Stand by for another Rick Santorum conniption.
My stepmother (nearly 70) is a life-long, rock-ribbed Republican. However, she has always been a proponent of choice. Why? Because her own mother nearly died from a back-alley abortion when my step was an adolescent in the early ’50s.
You can file this one under “Republicans Are Blind to Other People’s Problems Until it Touches Their Own Lives.” (A thick file, I know.)
Jim Baker is a …
She couldn’t endorse LIEberman on her own could she? Isn’t there some type of board that votes on those type of things? If so then keenan has some supporter at naral-America who are helping her undermine pro-choice positions.
Watching KO.
I’m loving David Gregory more and more every day.
Olbermann is doing some very heavy lifting. As usual. Olbermann and Jimmy Carter, hoisting dump trucks.
Snow saying this is not a repudiation of Bushes policy.
RevDeb @ 29
and hating Tony Snow more in much the same way.
RevDeb @ 29
Gregory kicking major a’s.
Richard Wolffe on Countdown saying the White House is going to put the Baker report on the shelf and it is going to gather a lot of dust.
Snow tripping over his nose.
jayt @ 32
Never liked Snow to begin with.
Saving my major contempt for LIEberman as is punaise et al.
LOL! KO saying this a la carte pickings may not meet your nutritional needs.
The “fetal pain” issue is such utter crap. But then, I believe completely in a person’s right to control her own body. Even if a fetus has full consciousness, I think a woman has the right to refuse service.
Can someone explain to me in simple terms why it’s right for Israel to engage in nuclear enrichment, but for Iran it’s not?
a pre-emptive: Feingold!!!
KO finishes with
“Much ado about nothing.”
Russ coming up next followed by Thomas Ricks and later a segment about Preggers Mary Cheney.
More fun to come!
Jane,
Thank you for putting the big picture together from a bunch of tiny pieces. I don’t know how you do it but you must have an Army of people sending you info and then I don’t know how you sift through all of the pieces to put out what you do. It’s simply amazing.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 39
Iran didn’t buy their stuff from the right people – er, us.
RevDeb @ 29
He reminds me a bit of Dan Rather when he was White House correspondent during Watergate.
jayt @ 43
Yes, they did.
Halliburton sold some dual-use equipment to Iran. But you don’t hear much about that, now do you?
Kinda like selling stuff to Saddam, for which we then attack him.
It’s quite the scam.
RevDeb @ 41
I can hardly wait through the commercial break…
Yes, my KO is back! : )
Kathryn in MA @ 31
This statement has to be the single most astounding display of naked chutzpah yet uttered by any of Bush’s three press secretaries. The report is precisely a repudiation of Bush’s policies. The only honest accompaniment to its conclusion that those policies have failed in every way would be to state that they never had any possibility to succeed in the first place. Tony Snow is an idiot, a baldfaced liar, or (quite possibly) both.
Al Qaida now a franchise in Iraq, like McDonalds. – an Iraqi
Yay– Feingold calls the ISG an inside job.
No opponents to the war interviewed.
Russ: This is really a Washington inside job…It shows in the recommendations. It’s been called a classic Washington compromise…This report does not do the job.
angie @
17
Good call angie, you were right.
RUSS KICKING ASS, BIG TIME
Washington inside job. Classic Washington compromise
FEINGOLD!!
“This report does not do the job…”
Finegold – classic Washington compromise -does not do the job -
Feingold on Olbermann doing the work. I like this guy Feingold. Big time!
Russ: This report keeps us in Iraq.
lisadawn82 @
42
Thanks to Brendan and to Fred, both of whom contacted me. They did the legwork.
Always good to have smart, strong men on your side.
“This report keeps us in Iraq…
And we’re losing ground to the Taliban in Afghanistan.”
True, Russ…
He’s got a point there.
I am SO pissed at Russ for deciding not to run for Pres.
“Hand across the water (water)
Heads across the sky“
“When you commit a mistake, you’ve got to stop making the mistake.”
Right again, Russ.
How many more troops are we going to lose? when we have determined we have made a mistake, we should stop making the mistake.
Feingold for Secretary of State. In ‘08.
Feingold saying the ISG did not solve the problem of redirecting our resources to fight the real (non-Iraq)global war on terror.
thanks, Jane. I have been hesitant to even broach the subject here and in other public forums b/c of obvious reasons– up to and including no real confirmation, just a gut feeling.
You do very important work, thank you and all of FDL very much.
;)
We need a real timetable to get out.
Russ:
The American people “want us out of Iraq now, and they are right.”
RevDeb @ 59
I’m of two minds about it. I like Feingold’s politics, and I like his candor. I would certainly be willing to vote for him for president.On the other hand, President Feingold would mean no Senator Feingold holding some feet to the fire that much need the heating.
I’d be really surprised if Keith doesn’t do a “special commentary” in the next couple of days re the ISG report.
KO: Have the violent conditions on the ground already rendered the recommendations irrelevant?
Hell, yeah.
There’s Feingold. And there’s Hillary.
RevDeb @ 59
I’m disappointed too – but he *will* be geat heading the sub-committee on constitutional issues. (oh, the hearings….). I’m almost salivating.
Kathryn in MA @ 66
YES! Now will our Dems act?
jayt @ 72
Babs Comstock is setting up shop to come to the rescue of beleaguered repigs as they are about to be eviscerated by Russ et al. Great story.
RevDeb @ 69
Yes.
Although it’ll be more like a special comment on Junior’s OBSTINACY regarding the ISG report.
OT: Barney Frank is large and in charge!
Frank also wants legislation dealing with predatory lending, the mortgage industry, foreign investment, and affordable housing.
Let the red-baiting begin!
spray on condoms on KO.
LOL!
Kathryn in MA @
66
On the last thread, Hugh posted this:
On pages 62-63 of the ISG report is a list of the milestones. This is a timetable whatever it is called and may be the most important part of the document because it gives dates.
NATIONAL RECONCILIATION
By the end of 2006–early 2007:
Approval of the Provincial Election Law and setting an
election date
Approval of the Petroleum Law
Approval of the De-Baathification Law
Approval of the Militia Law
By March 2007:
A referendum on constitutional amendments (if it is necessary)
By May 2007:
Completion of Militia Law implementation
Approval of amnesty agreement
Completion of reconciliation efforts
By June 2007:
Provincial elections
SECURITY (pending joint U.S.-Iraqi review)
By the end of 2006:
Iraqi increase of 2007 security spending over 2006 levels
By April 2007:
Iraqi control of the Army
By September 2007:
Iraqi control of provinces
By December 2007:
Iraqi security self-reliance (with U.S. support)
GOVERNANCE
By the end of 2006:
The Central Bank of Iraq will raise interest rates to 20
percent and appreciate the Iraqi dinar by 10 percent to
combat accelerating inflation.
Iraq will continue increasing domestic prices for refined petroleum
products and sell imported fuel at market prices.
KO notes that the IGS report took 9 mos to complete – is it out of date already?
angie @ 76
I hope Amato grabs that segment for C&L. It’s a keeper.
angie @ 76
Yikes! I read about ‘em, but the visual is far worse the anything I could imagine.
Love the fact that they displayed THREE sizes of members, though!
SO how does the head of NARAL get appointed? did i miss that in the comments? And who VETTED her?
nadine
And then…
SWORD-SWALLOWERS!!!
lol!!!
Donning tin-foil hat, why does it not surprise me that Repug Fundies target national institutions for their own insidious purposes?
To wit:
The Presidency.
The Congress.
The Supreme Court.
All Federal Courts.
And all other Federal institutions (FDA, FTC, FCC, Federal Reserve, World Bank, SEC, etc.)
They are everywhere. They may be the man or woman approaching you on the street. They hide in plain sight. They look like you and I. You’ll never notice the danger you’re in until it is too late.
Why would NARAL be different?
Repug Fundy Commandment # 1: Bore deeply into all structures of power and destroy these institutions from within.
/only slightly snarked
angie @ 76
The colors, oh, the colors!
and they are so blue, too!
wow wee!
angie @ 85
yep, they can’t keep them up long enough in red country.
nrl @ 81
Yup, that’s what I want to know. I’m certain she’s not the only one.
Seriously, there are folks undermining all sorts of institutions and organizations in this country, in the same manner that our intelligence folks have been doing to organizations in foreign countries.
Infiltrating and undermining from within.
It’s creepy, has lots of awful implications — and needs to be dealt with somehow.
RevDeb @ 86
707!
Oklahoma kiddo @ 39
Papal dispensation given to certain “friendly” other-believers?
Yes, Mad Dogs! You get it. That’s precisely my point. We have to figure out how to deal with this sort of thing.
They’ve gone all spy-ops on us.
angie @ 85
I see potential size issues arising over volume, “I need the 8 oz. spray bottle.”
“Yes, well I’m not covered by anything less than 10 oz.”
“Well, sure, if you’re going to go with three coats!”
Love the fact that they displayed THREE sizes of members, though!
Shouldn’t the biggest wooden phallus been made of mahogany?
johnSwifty @ 92
ha!
buuut, wait– If you order now we’ll send you 2, that’s right, 2 full 32 oz bottles for the same price and you’ll never have to order the clapper!
* plus, the big bottles will looky very nice in your pocket to your date.
Heh. A serious thread hijacked by “Oddball.”
It’s still about choice though, neurophius!
neurophius @ 94
Oddballs?
I will do everything I can, no matter how small, to help deny the 2008 Democratic nomination to Senator Hillary Clinton for president of the United States. Unless the Senator changes her views on pulling out of Iraq.
From a summary of Ms. Keenan’s history from the NARAL site:
Meet Our President
(emphasis mine)
But then I found this: Guide to Political Left which appears to be a rightwing site designed to keep track of folks they perceive as left wing, like Ramsey Clark.
And here’s another version from what appears to be a conservative religious site
except that…. there is so much biological evidence that a person is NOT created at conception that it boggles the mind that we’re even still debating it. yeah well… we’re still debating evolution and global warming – so what the hell do i know. but if keenan does believe that a human life begins at conception (as it looks like she may), then having her running NARAL is like having senator inhofe in charge of lobbying for limiting CO2 emissions.
neurophius @ 94
It’s just an attempt to follow the format pioneered by KO, with extras!
Out of order, though. We started with a candidate for Worst Person In the World.
I am a Catholic. I believe strongly in a woman’s choice to have or not to have an abortion.
Amato’s working on the Feingold clip.
BillO wins Worst Person in the World yet again.
Jane Hamsher @ 102
Excellent.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 102
and so do many Catholics that I know.
But there are still some that cannot shake the Church’s edicts deep down and that may be as it should be, but they should not preach what they don’t believe deep down.
(you’re a peach, though and in many ways, teacher!)
Amato’s a treasure, too.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 101
Then you are an intelligent person, first, above all. And, I like to think that if there is a divine essence in the universe; it loves and respects that trait above all other things human.
Don’t know what is up with the comments, but she should resign. She clearly doesn’t understand the mission and has an ethical dissonance with this particular proposed law.
Bye bye. We don’t need people who don’t believe in the cause working for it. Period.
Jane Hamsher @ 103
from cableless land – a big thank you to john!
Don’t know about Keenan and how her religion plays into her work, but we can’t lump all Catholics together. Catholics for Free Choice is doing lots of the heavy lifting in fighting the Vatican on this issue. They are well funded and well organized. They are also part of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice. There are lots of reasons to dump on Keenan for what she has done. I don’t know that her being a Catholic is one of them.
Obviously, a Catholic (procreation without birth control) is not the best choice to be the head of NARAL. She should never have received/accepted the position if it conflicted with her personal views (it did/does). Nancy Keenan has conflicting views that have been costly for and have compromised womens’ rights. She must be replaced asap for the sake of naral.
Mrs. K8 what did you do to the comments…he he.
Oops. Jane, you’ve got Brendan Skwire’s name in the post as Brendan Keenan.
[Mod Note; thanks for the heads up. Refresh you screen and it should be fixed]
RevDeb @ 110
agreed – absolutely. but her saying that she accepts her church’s teachings on abortion (if true) is a big concern imo.
Jane Hamsher @ 103
Is it YouTube?
The Finegold clip is up on C&L now.
RevDeb @ 109
Catholics For a Free Choice is the first political/issue organization to which I gave money. I was 19. I still have the pamphlet they sent as a thank-you. It lists examples of the occasions over the CENTURIES (!)when the church has reversed course. (E.G. The divine right of kings.)
Timmeh is a guest on Scarborough . . . dissing the admin. on the ISG. Calling it a wake-up call not only for the Bushies but for the country.
RevDeb– I would never reject anyone for being of any religion … but I gotta question whether her heart is really into being ok with a woman’s right to choose or with the Church’s edicts.
that’s a problem, imho.
Timmeh out ahead of the curve…not.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 101
Yes.
Me too.
Joan Walsh Salon.com on Scarborough calls the Baker report a complete repudiation of administration policy…”a lot stronger than a lot of people expected it to be.”
MsAnnaNOLA @ 111
Um. I don’t know.
What did I do to the comments?
Is it bad?
angie @ 118
I’ve cut off my support for NARAL myself so I’m not arguing on her behalf. BUT I’d be really surprised if the search committee and board that gave her the job didn’t question her about this at length and found her explanation acceptable.
NARAL itself has been behind the curve on the issue for a while. They have been fighting on a purely secular “rights” platform against a foe that is fighting a holy war. They have blown it so many ways I can’t begin to count them. The latest skirmish where they backed RG Joe was the last straw for me.
This sort of Keenan thing is very reminiscent of the practice of forming organizations (usually astro-turf) such as –
“Americans for XYZ” –
which in reality are working to UNDERMINE the policy of XYZ.
Seriously, guys, this is the sort of intelligence work we’ve pulled off in foreign countries.
They are using spy techniques on their own citizens.
Not just the propaganda nonsense.
Scarborough showing clips of Bush before the election..”we will never back down, we will never give in, we will never accept anything than victory…we’re not going to lose in Iraq…so long as we stay the course…”
Joe says all of Bush’s rhetoric has been countered by the Baker report and Gates’ testimony.
I appreciate your view, RevDeb and it may be that Nancy has caved in against the “holy war”.
People sometimes do succumb to pressure and can and do change their P.O.V. and hers may have changed from the time she was given the job.
Maybe.
Mrs. K8 @
7
Like I said in the last Keenan thread: Has anyone else wondered if she isn’t a mole for the wingnut right?
neurophius @ 122
Well, it is in the sense that it was stronger than the typical DC Insider stuff…
Oh, and I know I’m going somewhat OT…
But I just posted my thoughts on waiting to do something on Iraq at Daily Kos.
neurophius @ 126
he’s got that Romeo Void look in his eyes
just watched c&l’s keith and russ clip.
russ just keeps getting better and better. a national treasure.
“Feingold saying the ISG did not solve the problem of redirecting our resources to fight the real (non-Iraq)global war on terror.”
borrowing to fight the GWOT is using resources you don’t have. Just throwing another 20,000 soldiers in Iraq are resources we don’t have; spending $500 billion more per year than you take in as tax receipts is spending resources you don’t have. Iraq is one war BEYOND the resources we have, so there is essentially nothing there to “redirect”.
Americans, even those of Fiengold’s clarity of thought are apparently too fucked in the head in awe of American self greatness to realize that. Everyone is so damn used to America as land of the endless bounty and no constraints that ordinary rules just don’t apply in their minds.
.
angie @ 119
Guess I just don’t understand some folks.
Such as a woman of the Catholic faith who believes the Church’s teachings that abortion is wrong.
This woman says to herself: I think I’ll go out and get me a job. Someplace that empowers me. Someplace that values me. Someplace that shares my goals for life and living.
So this woman of the Catholic faith who believes the Church’s teachings that abortion is wrong, this woman goes out and applys for a job at NARAL?
Yeah, and Vegans just love to work at McDonalds. Matter of fact, if you’re a member of PETA, it’s all you can eat Hamburgers 24 by 7 for your whole family.
neurophius @ 126
and snowjob said just today that “stay the course” was not the policy…
from the briefing and the dust-up with Gregory:
A person who belongs to a religious group that believes in forced child birth and then is the leader of a national pro-choice organization either has serious psychiatric issues or is a mole. To me, her positions on Lieberman and this most recent anti-choice, pseudo-medical bullshit, would indicate the second possibility.
Buchanan is acting like his head is exploding. He says either win the war or get out fast.
I don’t think there’s any way we can win the war.
RevDeb @ 136
There was never a way to win this war.
After rereading Jane’s post, her statement goes to the “wisdom” of NARAL allowing itself to be represented by someone who might be subject to an internal conflict. That’s a valid point whether or not Ms. Keenan actually has 100% moral integity. Those who support NARAL with money etc have a right to expect that the organization is responsible in selecting its officers. It’s not clear why Keenan/NARAL took the position they did, but the fact there is an apparent conflict would be a concern for any Bd of Directors, and red flags should go up when repeated actions suggest that the conflict has come into play.
RevDeb @ 136
This was my thought earlier this morning:
Unfortunately, NARAL is in a nasty situation if they decide to clue in now. Could they really fire somebody for exercising their Catholic beliefs? They would have to build a strong case that the work Keenan has done has been sub-standard or didn’t make benchmarks if they were going to avoid the charge of religious bias.
Nor could they really hire someone because of their religious perspectives, either. Very sticky.
We have two options as I see it:
1) Begin a concerted grassroots campaign that communicates to NARAL that Keenan’s position is unacceptable and interferes with a woman’s decision process — without mentioning in any way that religious perspective is an issue.
2) Kill NARAL funding — starve it to death by getting to its donors and asking them to fund another and better organization.
I think the first of the two would be harder to do, we grassroots being the difficult-to-herd cats that we are.
So? Did I miss any other options?
atdnext @
129
I recommended but I think you have some html issues.
RevDeb @ 136
Pat’s head explodes every night; he must have spares.
Mrs. K8 @ 125
I am a proud member of Americans for *XYZ. Please don’t cast aspersions.
atdnext @ 137
RevDeb @ 136
We lost the war when the congress gave their authorization.
Mrs. K8 @ 123
*xyz @ 142
sounds like a capital idea…..
Mrs. K8 at 45 that is where it started on my computer…
The comments show weirdly for me now, too. They didn’t until I followed a link and then returned to FDL.
Jane Hamsher @ 140
I dunno… I’ve been having problems with DKos all day today.
But thanks for the rec, Jane! : )
Between the ISG and NARAL, it is important to remember it’s bugger all down here on earth!
MsAnnaNOLA @ 148
Same here.
I am a proud member of Americans for *XYZ. Please don’t cast aspersions.
can’t remember whether I was for XYZ before opposing it, or against it before I was for XYZ.
I am a proud member of Americans for *XYZ. Please don’t cast aspersions.
I’m in the MA chapter of the *xyz-Mrs.K8 anti-aspersion league.
scarecrow @ 152
count me in as well.
punaise @ 153
Ask not what XYZ can do for you, but what you can do for XYZ.
I guess I differ with the crowd on the issue of “winning”. We had a very, VERY narrow opportunity to win, back in 2003.
But winning was NOT a military objective; it was a socio-economic objective. We needed to win the hearts and minds of a people that had only known a strong-arm leader for most of their lives, who’d grown to anticipate his sons following in his footsteps. Better infrastructure than they’d had in combination with training on self-governance could have done it, but it had to happen within the first six months of the invasion and occupation, so that the Sunnis could not look back with regret and the Shia could look forward to working with the Sunni.
We only had days to make this happen. Not years.
Donald Rumsfeld’s winning-on-the-cheap was a large reason why we lost, because he couldn’t execute inside 6 months. The CPA as well.
We lost it in 2003, before the staging of the falling statue. It’s too bad that the energies expended on the statue weren’t expended on actually winning.
I am also very supportive of LMNOP.
neurophius @ 155
I knew XYZ; XYZ was a friend of mine. You, sir, are NO XYZ.
OT – from Lukery @http://wotisitgood4.blogspot.com/
mary cheney is pregnant. in virginia. i hope the baby is black.
I love the truly twisted.
johnSwifty @ 159
To XYZ or not to XYZ? That is the question.
I’ve been a QRS man, myself. Yum.
Rayne at 140 — I agree re not raising the religious issue; re the options, why not both?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Co. are cast as Persians in this passion play.
Will no one rid me of this meddlesome comment format?
angie @ 158
I think that makes you a centrist.
Apologies, because I haven’t read the whole thread, but I just wanted to add something on the
fuckedupnesstheological error of the Roman Catholic Church wrt sin and reconciliation relative to the wider Xtian community. Catholic traditions about Penance/Reconciliation START about the 6th century. They don’t go back to the earliest Xtians and certainly not to Jesus.According to Roman Catholic canon law, the bishop can “absolve” a priest from raping a minor an infinite number of times. Not only can the priestserialrapist continue to receive the sacraments, he can continue to “preside” over the dispensation of sacraments (ex opere operato)and make decisions about which lay people receive them. According to that identical canon law, a lay catholic who remarries after divorce, is barred for life from ever receiving the Sacraments. If you have enough money and are masochistic enough, you can usually “purchase” an annulment, but it’s theological rubbish. Is Nancy against divorce (and remarriage), because pope Benny sure is.
Jesus’ scriptural prohibition against divorce has no relevance in modern societies. Jesus’ experience of divorce was that men ditched their wives, who then had no alternative but to turn to prostitution to support themselves. That’s why Jesus was against divorce.
IMHO, Roman Catholics, acting within the confines of the RC Church, have to push back on these sub human and sub-Xtian heresies which have become canon law.
Apologies to the many FDL atheists/agnostics whose ethics and opinions I value so much. I am offering these comments as historical and cultural observations. I’m not trying to take a position or advocate for the larger issues of theism.
johnSwifty @ 157
if you REALLY knew XYZ you would know it was *XYZ.
XYZ is an impostor.
RevDeb @ 154
Scarecrow and RevDeb – Thank you for your support.
Rayne @ 156
I couldn’t agree more. It was a foolish endeavor; but, launching it against all caution to the contrary, it required absolutely perfect understanding of the region and perfect execution by the military commanders in complete concert with a political effort.
The first thing Rumsfield and company did was to make absolutely sure that none of that could happen. My only serious question is whether or not this was by design.
*xyz @ 142
Well, I’m not! The asterisk makes ALL the difference.
Love,
A proud American supporter of *xyz.
;-)
if Bush and the wingers can get away with saying “the Democrat party”, I propose “Republicanist” as a rejoinder
scarecrow @ 166
nope, I just loved the way those letters felt as I sang my ABC’s. I took twolf1’s test the other night and I am quite liberal.
I know, it’s a shocker!
RevDeb @ 167
That much was obvious.
I am an agnostic on XYZ. I neither endorse nor disclaim the asterisk.
punaise @ 172
Great idea, done.
re *XYZ? all the good stuff is in the footnotes.
Mad Dogs @
84
Why indeed?
They’ve been doing it from the bottom up for years.
We have a fundie on our local school committee. He’s a rabid antigay warrior who homeschools his own kids and writes thundering condemnations in the local weekly about the Commies who have put “Nickled and Dimed” on the school’s summer reading list. He also is against any large infrastructure expenditures on principle, no matter how urgent (for example, voting against replacing our 1971 fire truck because “the taxpayers can’t afford it.”)
Our newly reconsistuted Democratic town committee is looking for someone to run against him next year, because his views do not represent the town. It should be an interesting election. Our residents HATE controversy and will do anything to avoid it.
John Casper — as always, appreciate the theological history. Thanks.
Are Republicanists guilty of “Republiciness”?
scarecrow @
138
Yep. That’s it in a nutshell.
scarecrow 162 — see the difficult-to-herd cats factor.
We could encourage netroots folks to petition NARAL about Keenan, but as soon as any of them make it about religion, NARAL can’t pull the trigger (and Keenan would have grounds to say it was religion and not her performance). It has to be a tightly crafted response and a disciplined effort — absolutely can’t happen in a group of the size required.
The other is better if the vetting process has failed; starving-the-beast not only deals with the performance problem, but it eliminates those who set up NARAL to fail.
And then we build anew, with tighter, better vision and focus.
John Casper, thanks again for sharing your knowledge of the early church!
I look forward to the restoration of your (W) when appropriate *XYZ– it will be a happy day indeed to give back all previously shamed and solidarity minded (W’s) to our friends in 2008!
MsAnnaNOLA @ 147
Well, golly.
All the comments look fine to me.
There is ONE weird thing showing on my screen — in the #45 comment of mine, the part which introduces the quote by jayt (where it says “jayt@43″) appears as though in a little grey box, a grey oblong surrounding the text.
But that’s the only odd appearance here. Beats the hell out of me what happened. All I did was quote jayt, write my comment, then click “submit.”
I wish I knew what it was that happened — it’s especially difficult since I don’t see anything wrong. And I wish I knew how to fix whatever it is.
I’m sorry. I think. If I could take it back, I would. Any advice, anyone?
angie @ 183
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
My first toast will be to *ilson!
code off
New thread.
Refresh, and comments from here on should be ok.
I just typed [/code] with carats replacing [].
OT, Nancy’s Roman Catholic church specifically allows ordination of only one gender. According to pope Benny, God’s grace is insufficiently strong to work through women. It can only work through men, because Jesus was a man. (Don’t blame me, that’s what pope Benny wrote.) If Nancy’s such a
fucking strong,Roman Catholic, she evidently buys this misogyny. I think she should step down and ask a man to take over NARAL. close snark.*xyz,
Haven’t seen *ilson around in a while. But then my presence has been sporadic since 11/7. Had to get back to work! Is he still around the Lake?
John Casper @ 166
Interesting use of the ‘X’tians vocabulary in your comment.
I have seen the argument that this is more authentic in reality as the ‘Ch’ sound for “Christos” in greek is made by the Chi “X” character.
I think this falls down, though, if consideration is made for the fact that most day to day recording of events and commerce was carried out in with the Aramaic alphabet.
Haven’t seen him. He was working for his political candidate, I thot he would come back after that.
Nature: Molecular HIV Evidence Backs Accused Medics. Very important article on TNH about evidence in favor of the medics under death sentence in Libya (accused of infecting 400 children with HIV).
angie @
89
Little blue men.
Mrs. K8,
I think you might have hit code instead of or in addition to quote.
When html goes out of control, can fix by typing in the ending code, and from there on, if people refresh it should be ok.
Here: {/code} but use the signs.
What can we do to get a REAL pro-choice person to head NARAL? Is there a campaign to reprimand Keenan?
johnSwifty @
191
Thanks john Swiftly. Perhaps I ought to give it some more thought. It was a very common abbreviation, in my studies. I use it, because it requires less typing. I’m not trying to imply in any way in significance to the historical tradition, roughly identified as Christianity.
None of Jesus and his followers were Greek. What survived after the destruction of Jerusalem was a Greek version of Jesus’ understanding of Judaism. It is only in the twentieth century that scholars began to understand how Greek overlays dominated our understanding of Jesus’ understanding of Judaism. He never intended to start a new religion. It was only after 70, when his followers were thrown out of Judaism, that those questions arose. It’s from that split that a lot of the anti-semitism in the NT comes.
Mrs. K8 @ 184
Every comment has the grey box for me…I don’t know how to fix it or surely I would.
[Mod note; refresh your screen, it should be fixed now]
Epu’d and egregious fixed the comments…bless you egregious…I don’t know what you did but that was hurting my eyes!
egregious @ 194
Thanks for the explanation! It’s so confusing to me when my monitor shows everything is normal.
However, it’s still a mystery to me. I can understand how it could have happened if I hit the “quote” button in the comment box’s line-up of options (right over the comment box), because the two buttons are right next to each other there.
But that wasn’t how I quoted jayt. Instead, I clicked on the “Quote This Comment” button located right inside jay’s comment.
Oh well, it’s such a mystery!
I do thank you for fixing whatever was wrong.
And I apologize for whatever it was (I do still wish I could see what “wrong” looked like, as it was invisible. Then maybe I could have edited “it” out, whatever it was.)
Thanks again for your patience in explaining, as well as for fixing everything!
MsAnnaNOLA:
Have you tried hitting F5?
By the way, there is a new thread.
Thanks for the link, enjoy my blog everyone!
John Casper @
197
I find it all fascinating. Any time or opportunity you find to intersperse comments with this historical perspective is more than welcome in my book. Thank you.
scarecrow @ 138
I don’t think she should have been disqualified from the search because she was Catholic, esp. in view of her expressed opinion vis-a-vis her bishop. But the *second* she upheld the NARAL endorsement of JoeLieberman in the face of legitimate objections from the CT NARAL — she’s in ‘this explanation better be *real* good” territory. She needs to have the hell confronted out of her, at the least. Probably her resignation requested. BTW, despite being the ‘president’ she is not, apparently, elected. So who does she report to? IRRC, the National Science Teachers had some similar issue?
Rayne @ 140
How about an ActBlue solution? $ to *state* NARAL, if they are with the program, and zero $ to NARAL national. Also, does this woman not have some sort of review from time to time? Also, look for *funding conflicts* at the national level a la the NSTA. BTW, neither NARAL’s website nor Sourcewatch list funders for Naral. Members, should we be asking them?
Wake Up, Democrats!!!!
As part of the “culture of corruption” Republican Party’s plan over the past three decades to takeover America for their nefarious purposes, they’ve resorted to totalitarian tricks practiced by authoritarian regimes throughout history.
One of these is to infiltrate their “opposition” and subvert their “opposition” from within, planting their “operatives” in strategic positions so they can undermine the “opposition.”
Thus, the Democratic Party and other “liberal” organizations have been filled with right-wing “moles,” like Keenan.
The Democratic Party? Just look at the Democratic Leadership Council. Right-wing “moles” one and all. Steering the Democratic Party toward “culture of corruption” Republican Party positions on issues…undercutting our liberal democracy one step at a time…choosing right-leaning and outright-conservative candidates to run for political office as pseudo-Democrats.
Our public educational system? Right-wing “moles” throughout, espeically in administrative positions. Why isn’t civics being taught in schools anymore? Because our nation’s children might be taught in civics classes about our being a liberal democracy, with freedom and justice for all? What about “shop classes” being taught anymore in public schools? Were these discontinued because students who learned a trade in “shop classes” might join a union?
In other words, the attack on our liberal democracy by the “culture of corruption” Republican Party is much more extensive and goes much deeper than most people suspect or can even imagine.
Our liberal democracy is in grave danger. And even with the huge Democratic Party win on November 7th, there are enough right-wing “moles” who have been “planted” in the Democratic Party, “moles” who will do everything they can to thwart any intensive and thorough investigations into the “culture of corruption” Republican Party.
Except, of course, the “culture of corruption” Republicans, and their right-wing Democratic “moles” didn’t foresee the emergence of the liberal blogosphere, as a counterbalance to the slanderous, lying propaganda machine the Republicans worked so hard on establishing over the past several decades.
FDL ROCKS!!! Keep up the good work.
I don’t have time to read all the comments, so pardon me if this has already been said.
How are the directors of NARAL chosen? How can we get Nancy Keenan and her supporters out and replace her with somebody effective?
selise @
100
I don’t take it that the intelligent side of the argument is about when life begins – I believe it obvious that the zygote is living,
else it could not go on to become en embryo – but about when that life becomes a person, potentially or otherwise. Not recognizing this is what leads to the “take no prisoners” approach on both sides of the issue.
Personally, I don’t see how even a a pro-choice
Catholic could head an organization as NARAL, for rather obvious reasons.
It is different for an elected pro-choice Catholic public official. There are retrograde bishops, like at St. Louis, San Antonio and Nebraska, who do threaten to use, excomunication for pro-choice Catholic public officials. Happily, they are in the minority. Even the current “guide” for “conscientious Catholics” in the matter of voting recognizes that abortion is one of many issues and encourages Catholics to vote only after thoroughly examining all sides of the issues, including official church issues,
and then voting according to their conscience, including public officials.
RevDeb @
36
I give. What is “punaise”
jayt @
43
There is also the fact that we are the final defender of Israel the next time the Arabs attack and try to destroy the nation, while we expect Iran to be one of the nations doing the attacking.
Rick B @
210
I hope to God we are getting somewhere near the point of understanding that to criticize Zionist Israel is not to be anti-Jewish.
President Carter has made a modest beginning. He sure ate Timmeh’s lunch last Sunday.
Today is December 7, and as a Navy vet, I again urge you to remember the Liberty. I believe that this is where the special treatment accorded Israel began, and it has grown to where it is now manifestly out of control and is harmful to the US and Israel both.
Rick B @
210
I hope to God we are getting somewhere near the point of understanding that to criticize Zionist Israel is not equivalent to being anti-Jewish.
President Carter has made a modest effort at educating the public, and he sure ate Timmeh’s lunch last Sunday.
Today is December 7, and as a Navy vet, I again ask all to remember the Liberty.
I believe that this is where the special treatment accorded Israel first began, and that has now grown beyond control to the detriment of the US and Israel both.
LET’S GET HER GONE!!!