
(Photo credit to REUTERS/Larry Downing. The looks on the faces of Hamilton and Baker as President Bush is speaking? Priceless. Hamilton, trying to stay neutral, hands gripping tightly with the effort, Baker, that clenched muscle in his jaw…I get that same "save me" feeling every time I have to listen to him speak, too.)
Shorter Iraq Study Group: "Grow up, Junior, and start doing your damn job."
Circumstances in Iraq are "grave and deteriorating," with a potential government collapse and a "humanitarian catastrophe" if the U.S. does not change course and seek a broader diplomatic solution to the problems that have wracked the country since the U.S. invaded, according to a bipartisan panel that sent its findings to President Bush and Congress today.
In what amounts to the most extensive independent assessment of the nearly four-year-old conflict that has claimed the lives of 2,800 Americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis, the Iraq Study Group painted a bleak picture of a nation that risks a "slide toward chaos" without new efforts to reconcile its feuding religious and ethnic minorities.
Despite a laundry list of recommendations meant to encourage regional diplomacy and lead to a draw down of U.S. forces over the next year, the panel acknowledged that stability in the country may be impossible to achieve any time soon.
"No one can guarantee that any course of action in Iraq at this point will stop sectarian warfare, growing violence or a slide toward chaos," the panel's two chairmen, former Secretary of State James A. Baker III and former Democratic Congressman Lee Hamilton, wrote in a joint letter accompanying the 142 page report. "There is no magic formula to solve the problems of Iraq."…
Some of its conclusions, such as the need for a phased withdrawal and for shifting the mission of U.S. forces, have been reported over the past few days. Much of the report, though, emphasizes diplomatic options. Advisers said they pushed for dialogue with Iraq's immediate neighbors, Iran and Syria, as a major path toward improving the situation, despite a belief that Bush would reject the recommendation outright because of those countries' ties to terrorism.
Baker, who as secretary of state spent much time working to bring peace to the Middle East after the Persian Gulf War, made a personal point of including the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the report and "laying out the importance of why it needs to be dealt with and a strategy to deal with it," said a source familiar with the report. Baker has been close to the Saudi royal family and his ideas may provoke opposition from Israel and its allies.
Should be an interesting day today as we begin to hear the extent to which the "grown-ups" have taken Junior to the woodshed — both in the public document as well as in private. (You just know that bits and pieces of that are going to leak out, no matter how much they want to keep it under wraps.)
That President Bush has to be told that diplomacy by him and by his Secretary of State is important as a crucial element of our nation's interaction with the rest of the world? Well…it is embarrassing, and that James Baker has apparently spelled it out in direct language in the ISG document says a LOT about how much resistence they are expecting from President Bush on this aspect of his job, doesn't it?
The AP has more, having gotten their hands on at least a part of the report before its release publicly at 11 am ET. After Gates' statement yesterday that we are decidedly not winning in Iraq, the one-two of this report today has got to sting — and no matter how much tap dancing Tony Snowjob may be able to manage today, the bottom line is this: people from the outside had to be brought in — AGAIN — to clean up Junior's failures.
Something that Amb. Joseph Wilson said earlier in the week when he was chatting with everyone resonates this morning, and I wanted to highlight it again before the ISG report is released. In responding to a question from reader Bustedknuckles regarding experienced diplomats who might be able to impact the mess that is Iraq, Joe said:
I have a lot of respect for Jim Baker. He is tough enough, experienced enough and savvy enough to pull a rabbit out of the hat if there is one in there. The problem is we are so far down the road on the way to chaos that there may not be any way to stop this until all sides are exhausted. The question is not whether the situation has become a civil war but rather whether it has degenerated from a civil war to out and out anarchy and a failed state. (emphasis mine)
And that, in essence, is the dilemma that everyone faces when evaluating the chaos in Iraq, as it threatens to spill over into the greater Middle East. How does one stop a runaway train filled with explosives before it hits the next stop along the tracks? And the next?
The best time to listen to the diplomats is before a shot is ever fired. But in the Bush Administration, Colin Powell's and the state department's experienced hands admonitions against this ill-planned, ill-conceived war were brushed aside in favor of the neocon dreams of conquering heroes and candy-strewn streets paved with oil. The time for the grown-ups and the realists would have been best prior to any American soldiers setting foot on the ground in Iraq.
But, alas, that was not to be.
There are a number of things that we all ought to learn from this. First, and foremost, is that the United States ought never again commit resources and troops without serious questions being asked on the front end of such a commitment.
That adequate oversight was not performed by the Congress, that the press acted as cheerleaders rather than as the skeptical cynics one would hope for in the run-up to this catastrophe, that individual Americans were doing the same — ought not be in question at this point. But our men and women in uniform, the American public, and the innocent civilians caught int he crossfire in the current conflagration that passes for Iraq deserve far better than this from all of us. And that lesson not only needs to be learned, but it needs to be taken to heart.
The second is the any planning that is done going into a conflict needs to take into account the worst case scenario, and not just limit itself to whatever President Rose-Colored Glasses wants to hear.
And, to that end, the public ought to hear about those worst case scenarios as well. Oversight hearings would help from Congress. I am more than aware that the rubber stamp Republican Congress has functioned more like a Parliamentary unit of the Bush White House than the independent branch of government that our Founding Fathers envisioned for us.
It is well past time for Congress to reclaim its Constitutional mantle of being both a check and a balance on the overreach of Presidential power. And we will be watching the Democratic majority in both houses of Congress come January to be certain that they do just that.
How long do all of us have to pay the price for this mess in Iraq? Because, in all honesty, it is a heavy, heavy price.
No one should be satisfied if all we get out of this report and the ensuing pomp and circumstances is simply a bunch of shuffling around and no real change of priorities and actions. The status quo is not good enough (and that is such an understatement). President Bush needs to face some difficult truths and be honest not just with the public but with himself. Now.
Juan Cole has updates on Iraq and some surrounding issues this morning that are well worth a read. Laura Rozen has a link to the ISG's Executive Summary (PDF). And Swopa has some thoughts on the Dick Cheney trip to Saudi Arabia, and the differences between publicly staged bluster and private discussions.
Related posts:
- Obama Tries to Suffocate Ridiculous Gates Controversy with Soothing Blanket of Words, Common Sense
- Tortured Logic: Government’s Own Words Fail Our National Ideals
- Obama on the Public Option: More Careful Words, No Commitments
- Israel Defiant – Words or Deeds Mr. President?
- Elliot Engel Wasn’t Always Muttering “Weasel Words” on the Public Plan





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fitz!
Christy!
Christy!
egregious!
Wouldn’t you think that Bush would be embarassed by the fact that Baker and Hamilton and their group have to come in and tell him how to effectively do a job that he is failing at? Or do you think he doesn’t even see it, because he’s too deeply wrapped up in his “I’m the decider.” malarky?
Haha that photo!
it is embarassing, and that James Baker has apparently spelled it out…
Speaking of spelling it’s 2 R’s in embarrass.
“We will take every proposal seriously, and we will act in a timely fashion,” Bush said after receiving the report.
Bush urged Congress to take the group’s proposals seriously and work with the administration to find “common ground” on Iraq policy.
“The country is tired of pure political bickering,” Bush said.
(cnn)
This little fucker can bet my blood boiling just by opening his pie hole once–who the fuck’s been doin the pure political bickering? HIM–that’s WHO….FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!!
Looks like MSNBC is going to do big coverage on this — they have Brian Williams on to discuss, along with David Gregory at the moment.
You hit the nail right on the head, Christy: Congressional oversight.
If the executive – of any political persuasion – is hellbent on charging ahead into armed conflict, the legislative branch’s job is to say “Wait a minute. Have we thought this thing through?”
Joe Wilson’s right on target, too. We’re in it, and getting out won’t be easy, both for our troops and the associated contractors. (How’s that “privatizing the military” working out, Mr. VP?) Some contractors are specifically tied to the military (i.e., providing water, fuel, food, etc. for troop support), while others are more independent (i.e., “Go build a hospital over there”). Either way, they’re in as much of a fix as the military.
Bring on the grownups, and pray that it’s not too late!
(And let’s hear it for Congress working a five day week, starting next January!)
MSNBC also has Andrea Mitchell’s summary of the Report:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16071449/
Uh-oh. It’s serious.
MSNBC cuts away at 11:00 am sharp to a Special Report, replete with their signature jingle.
They’ve hauled in Brian Williams to cover this. David Gregory and Jim Mikleszewski (sp?) are also on deck.
edit: I’m obviously slower than Christy this morning!
It is no wonder his father weeps.
wow – nbc and cbs broadcast are showing it too
Lethality.
Wow. A big word, the likes of which we haven’t heard under this administration.
kerpow, Christy!
I think that Poppy Bush fell apart just the other day in anticipation of the embarrassment that is going to be visited on his son and his handlers.
I am sad, but not suprised, that the wapo chose to ignore the study published in the Lancet and cite only tens of thousands of Iraqi dead…
sigh.
Well, Lee Hamilton certainly sounds disgusted with this mess this morning, doesn’t he?
ISG report coverage – gov’t that replaced saddam isn’t working. current approach is not working. the US’s influence is diminishing.
-our ship of state has hit rough waters, we must chart a new course
Holy crap. No wonder Dubya looks like sh*t in the photo, big bags under his eyes, bloodshot whites.
They gave him a verbal beating, and they are not sparing us any punches now.
My ten year old son had a little accident in bed a few days ago. Rather than asking Mom and Dad to help him strip the sheets and wash them, he kept quiet and hoped no one would notice. Mom and Dad, of course, found out and cleaning up was that more difficult.
Junior has pissed his bed big time and was hoping no one would notice, bullying everybody who raised the question, do we need to strip your sheets? Well, everybody knows now, and Daddy needs to do the laundry so he sent his errand boy, Jimmy Baker, to clean up.
Two more years of a ten-year old in the White House.
No matter what the ISG says, we are still fucked.
You can download full report here:
http://www.usip.org/
ISG report coverage – we recommend a new approach – responsibility.
-a change in the mission of the primary forces that will allow them to move out.
-make iraq govt achieve milestones.
-new diplomacy action
Biodun at 19 — thanks for the link. Will update above in a bit…much appreciated!
Three most important and interdependent objectives:
1) Change in primary mission of forces in Iraq, to allow troops to begin to exit Iraq.
2) Prompt action Iraqi government towards achieving benchmarks.
3) New and enhanced diplomatic efforts in Iraq and region.
Rayne @ 17
I doubt he’s been getting to sleep by ten each night.
The report is a laundry list of Clusterfuck screwups- including but not limited to:
1) Ignoring the underlying problem in the middle east- the palestinian issue- while setting the region on fire with two wars.
2) Totally ignoring the key regional players in planning and executing a “go it alone” strategy that’s totally fucked up.
3) Fucking up the Iraqi military forces
4) Choosing the wrong role for US combat forces
etc etc etc
It’s a fuckin indictment- try him an HANG him–Pig Fucker!!!
Now, what again was the answer to Cindy Sheehan’s question?
So many keep speculating on what Bush will do, whether he will acknowledge finally what he has wrought. Will he grow up and do his job.
That’s the wrong question. The question now is: Will we, the American people, grow up and do our job? Whether through our representatives or through taking to the streets or something in between, will we grow up and do our job, save us from this failed president, and redeem ourselves as not only free people but as the best people in the world. It occurs to me that we are acting like Bush: hoping someone will fix it.
I’m not dismayed, though. I am hopeful because of sites like this one, because of the netroots: these internets are the streets, and we are taking to them.
angie at 14 — you know, that sentence came out better than I realized. Sometimes, you pull a rabbit out of the hat…
You know the entire world has changed when they have a Dem read this to us.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 7
Thanks, Christy. : )
I’ve got MSNBC on the teevee now.
ISG via ABC:
good idea. too bad we didn’t think of that BEFORE march, 2003.
Rayne @
17
Rayne – after you have had a chance to peruse it, how do you think the report compares to the portions of the report that were leaked?
Rayne at 27 — My guess is they had Hamilton delivering the blunt news up front to soften Baker delivering more of it — for family purposes and diplomacy. If Baker had been the one delivering the bad news first, it would have been a “Junior versus Poppy” news bite. This way, they undercut it. Baker and Hamilton are both old hands at messaging around the media, and I would bet money they started that way for that reason.
“A new diplomatic offensive…”
The terminology is utterly foreign to this administration.
We truly have had a coup.
OK, Baker’s up…
“There’s no magic formula that will solve the problems in Iraq…”
But he’s asking for “constructive engagement” via a “diplomatc engagement” with Iran and Syria, as well as the other neighbors…
OOH, and the UN and the EU…
Now how will he and Poppy tell this to Dubya?
twolf1 @ 20
Responsibility? What is this thing of which you speak?
Sheesh! It is amazing that the President of the United States of America, having taken the oath of that office not once but twice, needs to be told that taking responsibility is required of him.
angie @
14
angie – have you read this?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..35643.html
ooh Baker slamming bushco on lack of diplomacy and says everybody has to be brought in– Iraq, Syria, Egypt, the UN, EU, etc and Israel/Palestine must be addressed.
no more stay the course he sez– it’s no longer viable.
Baker: “In our opinion [the stay the course solution] is no longer viable.”
Christy 31 — oh, absolutely, that’s the intention here for the consumption of the general public.
But we do see the
manmen behind the machine…six years and he’s unable to make his way up the first degrees of the learning curve…
uppper class twit of the century?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 31
No takers on that bet here, Christy. Baker understands that at its best, protocol is a tool of diplomacy that is helpful to getting your message heard. For Dubya, protocol is all about power – it simply means that everyone stands up when he enters the room.
from the report -
Christy Hardin Smith @ 4
I would hang my head in shame if I were the commander in chief and I had to appoint a blue ribbon commission to tell me how to end a war.
I’d probably commit sepuku.
Baker just told the Repugs remaining in office to give it up and play nice, in order to work from political consensus.
Yeowch, that one is going to hurt.
Baker speaks of humanitarian concern for the Iraqi people– words I am grateful to hear.
Great piece, except for this: “But in the Bush Administration, Colin Powell’s and the state department’s experienced hands admonitions against this ill-planned, ill-conceived war were brushed aside in favor of the neocon dreams of conquering heroes and candy-strewn streets paved with oil.”
Whatever reluctance Powell might have felt, he got out front on promoting the war. If he was serious about his job, he would have refused to sell out himself, the State Department, and the country. Just because he skipped out later doesn’t mean that this shouldn’t follow him.
In response to Q from Robin, from WaPo, Baker concedes they deliberately held up report so as not to influence the election.
does anyone know what happened to Chris Matthews?
angie @ 44
Well, I knew Baker had a brain…
It’s nice top know he has a heart as well…
My goodness, Dubya really is so bad that he makes his daddy’s administration look so good.
Damn, I forgot what it was like to see lucid, rational adults speaking like this.
At least they are presenting it as a colossal bunch of mistakes of epic proportions.
:O
zouk at 45 — that was really more for the State Department folks who tried to intervene and were rebuffed than for Powell, who was merely the figurehead who happened to be in charge of State at the time — but had functionally very little power in the Bush Administration, and lacked the nerve to say so publicly at a time when it might have made a difference.
Holding the report for political reasons is a political motive; it undermines the credibility of the effort. So the recommendations must not be that important, if they could wait.
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 35
You know, Thomas de Zengotita is right on the money. So many others have been saying George pere broke down really because of George fils.
President can pick and choose,but, Baker says, this is the only set of recommendations with “bipartisan” support “at least from the ISG.”
lina @ 47
I saw something the other day – can’t remember where – that he’s got diabetes and is having trouble with it right now.
Rayne @ 49
Yes, the contrast between these folks and the Administration people is stunning.
Oh please, the Faux News guy is asking why they didn’t speak of “victory”…
Fox News guy asks, “what happened to ‘victory’? Are we just trying to avoid catastrophe.” Baker says, we offer improved chances for “success.”
question from fox news (not direct quote)- is the conclusion that because victory is too hard to define right now that we should say that we are striving to avoid catastrophe?
Scarecrow at 56 — not just the contrast between folks in the Administration — but contemplate the contrast between their public discussion and the idiocy that has passed for Congressional hearings for the last six years. Painful…
Shorter ISG:
Listen to us things’ll get better.
Listen to Chimp and Co. things will becomed more suckified.
Cue the weeping Poppy.
-GSD
Christy Hardin Smith @ 60
Yep. btw, great post to set this up.
“We were immensely please today when President Bush said…”
So, in other words, the beating took.
I think that was the truth at CrazyWeb via Wonkette. I am more convinced of it now than ever before.
lil’ bush needs to go sit in the corner
That was a great question!
You have been in Iraq once, except for Robb and y’all did not get out of the Green Zone. Why should the preznit listen to you rather than his commanders.
I wish there would be more of those lobbed at the admin. in the very near future.
This is what happens when the terrorists win the midterm elections.
-GSD
OT but: Angie, I’m so glad you are a member of our community. Your posts are insightful, somber, silly and funny by turn. (((Just, hugs.)))
GSD @ 61
Why didn’t the ISG just ask you to give the presentation to the press? : )
Biodun @ 53
from previous thread:
Cliff Varnell says:
Vivid image rings true for me.
Cute. Baker notes this is the “only bipartisan report out there.”
It looks like junior is clutching his pearls
Slavin asks why on earth we would talk to Syria and Iran. (predictably)
Baker fires back, why did Iran talk to us about Afghanistan when nukes were off the table? Then goes on to defend talks with both.
ISG Report:
RECOMMENDATION 35: The United States must make active efforts to engage all parties in Iraq, with the exception of al Qaeda. The United States must find a way to talk to Grand Ayatollah Sistani, Moqtada al-Sadr, and militia and insur-
gent leaders.
RECOMMENDATION 40: The United States should not make an open-ended commitment to keep large numbers of American troops deployed in Iraq.
RECOMMENDATION 41: The United States must make it clear to the Iraqi government that the United States could carry out its plans, including planned redeployments, even if Iraq does not implement its planned changes. America’s
other security needs and the future of our military cannot be made hostage to the actions or inactions of the Iraqi government.
-via thinkprogress
In passing,
it is interesting that as far as I can tell, the ISG does not use the phrase: civil war to describe what is going on in Iraq. It also talks about “milestones” avoiding apparently either timetables or benchmarks. There is some sugar to go with the medicine here.
lina @ 47
He’s on vacation.
atdnext @ 68
I was a silent partner in the final draft.
-GSD
Baker: “We’re talking about tough diplomacy…”
I guess he’ll have to make it sound macho in order to get Dubya to be interested in that “girlie man” D-word.
angie at 72 — you could just hear Baker’s brain saying “Because, you idiot, it is in both our interests to do so. That is what grown-ups do — they make hard choices and they do hard tasks because they must be done.”, couldn’t you?
LindaR @ 52
I don’t think so. In the letter from the co-chairs that prefaces the report, Baker and Hamilton write,
Both Baker and Hamilton have their political agendas to push, but this paragraph seems spot on to me. No substantive solution will come without the president and congress working together, and that wasn’t going to happen in September and October when everyone was fighting for their political life.
Sad, unfortunate, but true.
Think about what the coverage would have been like, if the election was right around the corner. At least half would be about the effect of the recommendations on the elections. Now at least the main focus will be on the recommendations themselves.
Perhaps they will be heard at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, which certainly would have been less likely had they come out in October.
Hamilton uses the word “adversaries.” Baker uses the word “enemies.”
Many rhetorical myths/slogans/diversions of the Bush Administration are being publically rejected in full view. Amazing.
Hugh @ 74
In the response to the question from Fux News, they said they purposely left that type of wording out
Something else we should learn: don’t elect as President someone who is a small child in everything but chronological age. (If you do make that mistake, throw them out fast.)
Doyle asks what do you intend to do from now on to get boosh to embrace your recommendations?
Panetta says this war has badly divided this country– policy has been reduced to 30 sec soundbyte. Look at the realities that are there.
We cannot be at war and be as divided as we are today. We have made a terrible commitment to Iraq in terms of blood and treasure.
Christy, the observation by Amb. Wilson that you bolded is the same one that’s had me thinking long and hard ever since he made that comment on Monday. Bless his heart, he’s one of the few individuals to say that publicly. Personally, I think we are dealing with a failed nation state and that there is nothing anyone or any nation can do, sadly, that will put it back together again.
angie @ 72
another tragic consquence of not doing Afghanistan right.
getting the Iranians involved in Afghanistan opened the door to more dialogue.
it’s just beyond comprehension what the Bush foreign policy has wrought.
Peterr @ 79
Of course you are right. It’s still a political calculation, and action gets put off while people die. I thank the fates every day that my son is not over there.
GSD @ 76
You rock, GSD! : )
twolf1
Interesting that Recommenation 35 in your comment says we should talk to everyone — except al Qaeda. But Baker said we should talk to everyone, including our enemies, and he cited 40 years of talking to the Soviet Union, which wanted to “wipe us off the face of the earth.” (note similarity to Iranian statements.)
Why do I get the feeling that someone is going to say “Tantrums are not appropriate.” any minute now. *g* Just the visual and verbal contrast this morning is so striking. And the media reaction — especially that Major Garrett attempt to re-direct the narrative, has been fun to watch, hasn’t it?
lina @ 86
You can’t talk to madmen, lunatic, terrorist types, ever, ever, ever dammit! Except when it is a reasonable madman, lunatic, terrorist type like Khaddaffi.
-GSD
grayslady at 85 — that one has been haunting me since Monday as well, frankly. What a mess…
Pelosi:
“If the president is serious about the need for change in Iraq, he will find Democrats ready to work with him in a bipartisan fashion to find a way to end the war as quickly as possible.”
Baker doesn’t do cutsey little blowjob comments when taking questions–doesn’t say anything about the reporters clothing or physical status- he keeps the discussion on the meat…
Strange that this should seem strange.
Did it look like Baker just told the chap from JTA to actually read the report?
Heh.
How come Baker and Hamilton are not clutching the podium and yelling like the President would do in order to get his point across.
They are so unpresidential.
-GSD
Grave and deteriorating. Will someone please tell me how you can rapidly deteriorate from grave? People in grave condition are at deaths door, among those about to die. Short of actually being a corpse, how does a condition defined as grave actually further deteriorate. Soviet troops in the Berlin suburbs were the death knell of the third Reich. Things were grave for Herr Hitler at that point. How much further did things deteriorate in Germany once the Red Army reached the Reichstag? Grave is the house on fire and no water in the mains. Time to grab the puppy and the baby and run.
twolf1 @ 82
They didn’t take it completely out. From page 35-36:
Granted, it’s a passing reference filled with qualifiers, but it’s there.
Christy Hardin Smith @
51
Christy, this is also for the State Department folks: When they tried to intervene (which would have been the most basic part of doing their jobs) and were rebuffed, what was their responsibility to those whose lives hung in the balance? Did they live up to their personal or professed ethical and moral standards? It’s between them and the mirror now, and I’m sure they would have shown more resistance if they had some encouragement from Congress. But still, they knew more than the public, they had more power than the public, and they cooperated. If they haven’t come out yet, to tell the truth and to explain or apologize for their paralysis, they’re still cooperating. This is an ongoing war, and it’s getting worse.
As the more humane interrogators are surely reminding the extraordinarily rendered: If you know something, you have a responsibility to tell us.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 90
Wish I could see it all, no tube at work, but I have this vision of W. taking off his shoe and pounding it on the table.
Sad thing is that Nikita K. had more diplomatic talent in his shoe than W. has in his head.
Could Clusterfuck EVER have given such a press conference? In his fuckin wet dreams?
“We have made a terrible commitment in Iraq…
We ned to take one last chance to make it work”
- Leon Panetta
GSD @ 91
and you can’t fire up the base and get reelected at home unless you craft your propaganda around the messianic fight against the islamofascist boogeymen.
We “invaded” Iraq?
Retired Catholic 96 –
Time to grab the puppy and the baby and run.Exactly. But we’ve been saying that for quite a long time; it took a so-called bi-partisan committee of our grandparents to validate this for the idiots among us.
scarecrow @ 89
Al Qaeda is our ‘double-secret-enemy’ and therefor, not included in the term ‘enemies.’ ;)
Maybe he didn’t read the ISG report… oh wait..
“It is well past time for Congress to reclaim its Constitutional mantle of being both a check and a balance on the overreach of Presidential power. And we will be watching the Democratic majority in both houses of Congress come January to be certain that they do just that.”
Reyes wants 20-30k more troops; Bush to meet with Blue Dogs and NDC at the White House on Friday. I really want to be optimistic but when I read this kind if shit, I get a sick feeling in my stomach.
Hell, I can’t believe I was smart enough to ask a pertinent enough question to getthat response from Ambassador Wilson!
O’Connor sounds like an idiot babbling. Now Simpson comes with his drivel.
“If a large segment of our country gets behind this…
We can make progess…
It’s up to you, you speak to the American people…
If they’re behind something in broad terms, we will be better off.”
- Sandra Day O’Connor
This dildo factory that is the Bush Whitehouse could have used this blue-ribbon commission in 2001 to unify the nation, work towards nuclear non-proliferation, energy independence, rolling up international terrorists, securing the nations homefront, cementing international relationships and all that.
Instead they have used the 9/11 club to beat baby seals.
What a pack of runny assholes.
-GSD
oopsies, my new posts are replacing my previous posts. I hope that exiting and returning has fixed it.
test.
Thanks Mommybrain, Stephen Parrish @ 35 and yeppers Christy @ 78.
“The American people see the White House and Congress as dysfunctional.”
Well put, Senator Simpson.
OMFG.
He just used the word, “dysfunctional.”
I’m going to faint dead away.
Steve @ 106
You aren’t the only one, Steve.
atdnext @ 101
That comment, and the long comment by Justice O’Connor sounded like these folks still think we can still “win.” And they’re asking the American public to unite to make that happen.
Rayne @
17
Wonder if Chimpy went on a bender last night in preparation for today.
Or maybe he’s been crying, too. The tears of a bullying man-child who’s been confronted by an angry group of adults and ordered to a time-out. One that will, God willing, last two years so said adults can take over and clean up the mess he made.
I find no mention of a ‘peeance freeance Iraq‘ anywhere in the ISG Report
twolf1 @ 105
Repug ultrahawks have argued repeatedly and speciously that the difference between the Soviets and Al-Qaeda is that the latter is not a nation-state.
Steve, grayslady — if you read that Steve Gilliard post and the entire thread that preceded the discussion with Ambassador Wilson, you may have a different opinion.
We are basically talking about pulling more troops to cover the backside of troops as they exit. The ISG report will tell us about embedded troops, but the SecDef and DoD are going to do something else, and I believe those 20-30K are to provide backside cover. YMMV, however.
many thanks for the live-blogging…. non-cable news cut away from the press conference after baker.
Mr. Baker, did you have a quiet sitdown with George H.W. Bush to tell him that his son is war mongering nitwit with a destroyed legacy on the day that he had his public meltdown?
-GSD
I took the O’Connor statement as an admonishment that things are out of their hands with the issuance of this report — and that it is up to all of us now to push oversight from Congress on this mess to keep Bush on the correct path in order to make any progress. Simpson summed it up quite well with the “dysfunctional” tag line.
James Baker and Sandra Day O’Connor each and both have done little enough with the ISG to redeem themselves from their actions in 2000. Surely these times answer resoundingly the question whether one person can do catastrophic failure. One person can put in place catastrophic ruin on a nation. Bush did.
Baker did, in his putting family loyalty ahead of Constitution and Country. O’Connor did, in putting Republican party loyalty ahead of Constitution and Country.
But in this playing out of catastrophic failure…by Bush, by his advisors, by the enabling media…there is this. If one person can effect catastrophic failure, so too one person can move us forward toward success.
We have in our hands defining that success, selecting with great care our future leaders, listening and talking with great wisdom, each and every one…of us.
Complacency is not an option. Progressive populism is a call to action. Pragmatism is a corollary we must remember, too.
scarecrow @ 115
Well, I guess it will depend on whether Bush will actually talk with all of Iraq’s neighbors…
But even if he does, and the Administration take’s the Baker-Hamilton advice on diplomacy, I still don’t see how we can “win” there.
Q: Why isn’t current “training” working, and why will it work now?
A. William Perry: training started slow, and it was just “basic training.” they now need “on the job” training with American teams embedded with them, right down to the company level. Baker adds that hasn’t been done before at that level.
[these guys are effectively describing a combined joint US/Iraqi Army, without saying that.]
O’Connor also placed the onus on the press… you are the ones that will interpret the report for the American people, iirc.
scarecrow 115 — I didn’t get that impression; I think they are building a frame that qualifies success in exiting as a win.
These people are grim. They know there is no winning. They know the real war is already lost; we lost it when we failed to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis.
The next battle is winning back the trust of the American public, because they’ve lost the hearts and minds of more than 60% of us. That’s what Panetta and O’Connor are REALLY talking about.
Thanks for the link, Christy. Just after you put this up, I posted my initial reaction to the ISG report: The report to the captain of the Titanic recommends navigational changes.
question from reporter – What if this doesn’t work?
twolf1 @ 82
Which is itself a political choice.
Again call me cynical but there is this:
Such timing would have most American combat troops out of Iraq just before the ‘08 Prsidential campaign ramps up. Now that may be a “bipartisan” goal but it is also a goal that clearly favors the Republicans. And I am not sure how different it is from the Kerry Amendment, except that amendment was voted down 5 months ago on June 22. So we have taken an extra 5 months of war and dying to arrive at the same place, one that is convenient for Republican in no matter how many times bipartisanship is invoked is a very Republican war.
whispered… “she’s with Fox! she’s with fox!”
rwcole @
6
Where’s Jimmy the Weasel when you need him?
This is the closest George W. has come to a bunch of villagers with torches and pitchforks in his life.
-GSD
question from reporter – What if this doesn’t work?
a – if things fall apart, we will have to make adjustments. we’re not there yet.
Said with supreme disdain, imho
As a follow-up from my comment on 124…
Perhaps the best we can hope for there is that by utilizing some diplomacy there, we can help stabilize Iraq…
But most importantly, we need to start bringing our troops home soon…
Our presence there simply isn’t helping.
GSD 133 — no, he’s been closer, but he had Secret Service between him and us.
witchywoman @ 131
yes, that was weird
witchywoman @ 131
I heard that too!
The one who asked the last question isn’t from Faux last I knew. She’s Pam Hess from UPI, I believe.
GSD @ 133
Yes, and my feeling about O’Connor was that she was telling us peasants to shut up and fall back in line.
Agh, just missed what Brian Williams said about funds…
This is the reason why the budget bills were pushed back into 110th, not passed by the 109th. The 109th wouldn’t have enough time to do this after digesting the ISG report.
Pumpkinhead looks shocked, his eyebrows are up in his browline.
I think they rejected the question from the faux news reporter in hopes of getting a substantive question to close on.
for those w/ no tv/radio – the presser has ended
Christy, I was moved to stop work and listening to the msnbc coverage to post my comment, then went back to read your posting.
Masterful! Exactly so. Every one of us must be a stakeholder in this.
Bluntness. Bleak, says Russert.
Yes. This will be the hardest work our nation has ever faced. We may posit whether the prez is up to it. But in truth, we must be up to it. Each and all of us. Because, to echo Russert, we are in dire circumstances.
Hmm. I guess I came away with a different interpretation of O’Connor’s commentary.
To me she sounded like Grammy telling the kids and grandkids to play and work together nicely and we might just make it out in one piece.
LindaR at 140 — I didn’t get that feeling at all. But perhaps it is because I’ve been reading her opinions for so long and have never read her expressing anything close to that sentiment. Even in the Bush decision in 2000, for her it was precedents, not political loyalty — unlike Scalia and Thomas, frankly, whose opinions were rife with political arguments. I think that is too harsh an assessment about O’Connor, and I say this as someone who rarely agrees with her legal philosophy and the splitting the “middle way” tack that she has generally taken.
Rayne @ 141
Brian was explaining that the ISG came about because a Republican congressman returned frustrated from iraq and inserted in an appropriations bill an earmark with a million dollars or so to create/fund the ISG. That’s how it happened: an earmark.
Mr. Baker, is it true that Ed Meese spent the entire time on this commission looking at Iraqi porn?
-GSD
OMG, Andrea Mitchell’s talking about Simpson talking about “bringing together the left and the right”…
And then, she mentioned the tension b/w Baker (left?) and Meese (right!)…
What has our nation come to? ; )
Bill Kristol on Fux News
From the executive summary:
A warning which will probably be overlooked that Dubya can not pick and choose.
Can we get someone to slap the shit out of Bill Kristol in public?
Jim Webb? Roddy Piper? The Ghost of Andy Kaufman.
-GSD
GSD @ 148
“Yes, while we were in the Green Zone, he had some suspicious-looking packages delivered to his hotel room…
We had security inspect to see if they were bombs…
But no, they were just a bunch of naughty mags.”
; ) hehe
Anybody else stunned about Brian Williams actually talking out in the open with Andrea Mitchell about the tension between Dubya and Poppy’s gang?
Jeepers. This is a day full of firsts.
Christy and Rayne — well I certainly do appreciate your take since you have better experience of her. I might be too locked in my own prejudices. No. I am locked in them. I am truly sick of aristocratic, trickle-down policymaking, and I’m starting to see it where maybe it does not exist.
GSD @ 152
I heartily second that motion.
Maybe the GraveDigger?
Dead Man Walking.
Rayne @ 154
Jeepers, creepers, look at all those REEPers…
Jeepers, creepers, look at the Bushies brawl!
; ) more hehe
LindaR 155 — hey, I’ve got your back on that.
Will take some major work for me to ever trust a Republican again. Might need years of therapy.
I it me, or isn’t this the same advice Colin Powell was trying to give before he “resigned”?
I can really groove on the recommendation that a Iraq Support Group be formed.
Sorta like AA.
” My name is George .. and I’m a war monger.”
Tom at 159 — um…pretty close, anyway. SIGH
The entire Iraq adventure was bound to happen given the repugs hubris and affection for privatizing the world for their financial gain.
Add in all the vengeful christain patriots that wanted to kick ass after 9.11 and it didn’t matter to most of them as one arab is as good as another.
The fact that their belief that the US is the sole super power invincable and the world is their oyster led them to steam roll ahead after the oil with dreams of Iran next.
How short sighted and ignorant these people are and how greedy and self serving. The number of people responsible for Iraq numbers in the thousands not just Dumbya… he’s the empty suit that everyone will now blame this on. But so many are complicit… and no one will pay for this.
America tumbled pretty quick after the USSR dissolved. Economic collapse is next… Very bad behavior…
Stephen Parrish — I’m going to need some time to digest this formal document against the leaked stuff. I don’t know that we’ve seen everything, either; I’d debated with Cozumel about this, believing that the document we see is a change management document, designed to get the American public’s head wrapped around exiting Iraq.
The real stuff we will never, ever see, along with whatever it took to get Dubya in line.
By the way…Cozumel, you out there?
Believe you owe me a sawbuck as of 11:00 am today.
Make a donation to BlueAmerica’s operations fund when you get the chance and you’re paid in full.
And now we can say that winning is possible with the ISG document.
;-)
Oh, please!
CNN and MSNBC are still talking about the Iraq Group…
And Faux News switches to some OR missing person case…
Wow, I guess this doesn’t look good for Dubya.
This report has some suggestions about Iraq- and they need to be looked at VERY carefully..They forsee troops in Iraq until 08…but with a changing role..
Much of the tone, though, is political. “We’ve been tearing one another apart- we need to come together behind a course of action and EXECUTE–SOMETHING..”
Russert: The events on the ground have overtaken our policy.
LindaR — now THAT is a spectacular piece of bullsh*t right there, from Russert.
Ugh. The FACTS on the ground never, ever agreed with the policy.
Too bad it took this report for the media to report that this is a complete disaster and that this administration is wrong, wrong, wrong.
How long before they admit that the administration is a complete disaster.
They are sooo complicit in this horror.
Re not calling a civil war a civil war, names are important and quite simply the approach to sectarian violence is different for that to civil war. Sectarian violence implies that while there may be conflict between groups, there is still a central authority above the conflict and which has not taken a side in the conflict. In the case of a civil war, it is assumed that if the central authority still exists, it has taken a side. This is the big hole in the ISG report. We will not be strengthening an impartial government in Iraq dedicated only to stability and security for the country. We will be arming and training the Shia and perhaps even one group of factions among the Shia through the fiction of the central government against the Sunni, and eventually perhaps against the Kurds. By not calling things by their proper names, the ISG has fallen into the same error of an Administration that confused Saddam with al Qaeda and refused to see a major insurgency as anything but a group of deadenders until it was far too late.
Bush and Cheney should resign…
Jack
O’Connor reported to have said that no way would she decide so that Al Gore would become President in 2000–urban legend?
Somebody track down that Republican Congressman who did the earmark setting up ISG and
make Bushie give him a medal[nah, that would be a black mark] give him a Profile in Courage award.Rayne @ 168
Exactly. Hence my suspicion of aristocrats. At this point, I’m just so disgusted with the death and the torture and the avarice and the hopelessness of it all, it’s time to say armageddonouttahere.
twolf1 @ 150
Given that this administration has been hijacked by the neocons, I fear that Kristol is speaking for the administration. Bush has been saying for days that he will be looking at a broad range of options presented in the many reports coming out in the next few weeks. In other words, the groundwork for rejecting the ISG is already being laid.
If the group had included Ambassador Albright they may have more credibility. Nice of the boys to include Leon Panetta but before his conversion to the Democratic party he began his political career in the GOP. In Nixon’s White House.
Memo to Fux News: “winning” is so pre 11/7.
Pragmatism and honesty is post 11/7
Rayne @ 119..I’m obviously way behind on posts.. http://stevegilliard.blogspot……-iraq.html
Steve_G’s take on Reyes’ proposal…
The thing that upsets my stomach is the lack of discipline by the house Dems. I know that that is the way Dems are supposed to behave, but when our country is going into the shitter: the Dem leadership needs to be causing some serious pain to folks who are acting cute. The Blue Dogs and the “NDC” need a serious ball busting now.
-Change the roles of the US Military
-Full press regional diplomacy
-Abandon plans for permanent bases
-Begin withdrawal
Not bad in my opinion.
Bill Kristol is a snake.
On page 7 of the report, while describing the current situation, it says “There are roughly 5,000 civilian contractors in the country.”
5000? I haven’t seen anything remotely this low, and even the Pentagon was saying as recently as last week that the number is in the realm of six figures, not four. The pentagon estimate may also include Iraqi contractors and subcontractors, but still – something doesn’t fit here.
Are we admitting defeat yet and bringing our troops home? Are Bush Cheney impeached and under arrest for war crimes? Are all of the thieves under arrest? Is our treasury back on track tackling our incredible debt?
Is congress now required to declare war before we conduct mass murder on foreign soil for lies and or greed? Are they setting up new law equating lies from the intel community to high treason?
Interesting new words were introduced today but the bottom line Same old Sh** for another few thousand lives, tens of thousand wounded and hundreds of billion dollars at least. Countless lost in Afi/Iraqi suffering. Torture continues, undoubtedly on the increase with new laws encouraging it.
I remain ashamed of my country.
10 soldiers dead today in Iraq via msnbc.
Representative Frank Wolf of Virginia was the one who called for the formation of the ISG.
Eureka Springs, AR @ 181
Amen, brother.
I’m all for putting a full-court press on the diplomacy front, I’m just not convinced the Condi has the chops to pull it off.
Peterr @ 180.. The latest, official Pentagon # is 100k but that doesn’t include “sub-contract” employees.
There’s no doubt that this has been an important day in discussion about Iraq. I thought you may be interested in knowing more about our findings. Generally speaking, the public consistently favors diplomacy over force in foreign affairs. According to our Foreign Policy Index, 61% of Americans favor more emphasis on diplomatic and economic methods when it comes to fighting terrorism. Go to http://www.publicagenda.org/is…..amp;list=2 for more information.
Where’s BigTime today?
Is the question about individual employees of contractors- or number of contracting firms?
Scarborough: It’s going to be hard for the troops on the ground to hear that Iraq is descending into chaos. (paraphrase)
Uh, Joe, I think they know. . . .
Tom @ 185
she’s a laughingstock. why would anyone take her seriously?
I’m a bit surprised at how Baker’s showing his age… I wonder how much Junior’s had to do with that….
Tom- Condi’s a bust- need to send someone with talent.
Steve @ 186
I found the WaPo article that I had read earlier on this. They note that the numbers are difficult to break down by country, and (as you note) the use of subcontractors. The subcontractors I would expect to be primarily Iraqis, but the other – especially security contractors – are likely folks from the US. A taste from the article:
In addition to about 140,000 U.S. troops, Iraq is now filled with a hodgepodge of contractors. DynCorp International has about 1,500 employees in Iraq, including about 700 helping train the police force. Blackwater USA has more than 1,000 employees in the country, most of them providing private security. Kellogg, Brown and Root, one of the largest contractors in Iraq, said it does not delineate its workforce by country but that it has more than 50,000 employees and subcontractors working in Iraq, Afghanistan and Kuwait. MPRI, a unit of L-3 Communications, has about 500 employees working on 12 contracts, including providing mentors to the Iraqi Defense Ministry for strategic planning, budgeting and establishing its public affairs office. Titan, another L-3 division, has 6,500 linguists in the country.
The Pentagon’s latest estimate “further demonstrates the need for Congress to finally engage in responsible, serious and aggressive oversight over the questionable and growing U.S. practice of private military contracting,” said Rep. Janice D. Schakowsky (D-Ill.), who has been critical of the military’s reliance on contractors.
“Responsible, serious and agressive oversight” – Go Janice!
Thought y’all could use a fresh thread to continue the discussion.
lina @ 192
Next up: “Special Envoy” James Baker.
The humiliation of BushCo will be complete when they have to out-source the negotiations to Baker.
rwcole @ 189
Individual United States citizens serving under contract is the way I read the report. The quote above comes right after they talk about the number of US military personnel in Iraq, and then they say in essence “there are also civilians under contract there as well.”
Hugh @171:
You have several militias, some fake, some “legit,” if you can call them that; you have several Shia splinters; you have Sunnis versus Shias; you have Shias coming in from Iran and Syria; you have Kurds; you have a “central government” that is not in control of the country; and you have civilians terrified of anybody in uniform. Finally, you have US forces.
Basically, a royal mess. Non-zero-sum. Nobody wins.
Bay State Librul @ 171
That’s a fact, Jack
Diplomacy by Bush and Rice? The worst President ever has the worst Sec’y of State ever.
Biodun @ 198
You forgot to factor in the PMCs – mercenaries who freelance for the highest bidder.
Uncle Baker took the President to the woodshed today. Expect defiant denial to continue while Jr. runs to
fundieschurch forreinforcementhis god to tell him who to kill next.Steve @ 186
The Frontline report on contractors in Iraq mentioned that there were at least 40K. KBR alone must have more than 5K people working for it there. I have no explanation for this low figure, it’s been known to be higher than 5K for some time.
Petrr @ 194..It is my understanding that KBR et al sub-contract labor through international labor brokers…so they can pay 45 cents/hour and also avoid all international standards for contract labor. Their position about labor abuse is “we don’t know shit, we just hire through a broker.” A lot of the labor is from Asia ie Philippines, Nepal, etc. The abuse of these worker is bad.
TeddySanFran @ 189
Knock knock.
Who’s there?
Cheney.
Cheney who?
:~}
I think you all put too much hope into the belief that the report will actually cause Chimpy to change course.
I take the moron at his words – that he will stick to the same course and leave it for the next preznit regardless of what anyone else says – Bakker or anyone else (and I believe that even if the dog starts disagreeing with him) – regardless of how dire the situation becomes – regardless of how many die (American or Iraqi).
Is there anything in Chimpy’s history as Preznit where he has listened to different, let alone dissenting, opinions?
I for one have never bought into the Chimpy Senior and his team bailing out Chimpy Junior, of which the ISG is part. Not b/c they wouldn’t try to do it if they could (and even with the beloved bipartisan tag), but either b/c they couldn’t come up with a “solution” that Chimpy Junior could stomach or simply b/c Chimpy Junior wouldn’t listen. Either way, Chimpy Junior doesn’t change course.
Shorter me: The old guard (even in bipartisan form) saving the new old guard makes for good copy (as the covers of both Time and Newsweek show) – the A team is coming in to save the day. But that doesn’t have a basis in the real world (that is Chimpy’s unreal world, but you get the point).
The report isn’t useless though, since as long as Chimpy stays his course its bad for repugs (and the schmuck from CT) and good for dems – and it will play all the way to 08. Of course that is of no comfort to our soldiers or Iraqis or others in the region. Though perhaps it will give Congress the balls/cover/impetus to change things, which is the only real hope.
Hopefully I’m wrong – my omniscience can live with that – but I don’t think so.
President Bush needs to face some difficult truths and be honest not just with the public but with himself. Now.
This is not going to happen. Poppy broke down in public talking about Jeb, because it should’ve been Jeb, not W, in the White House. Our Pres has serious, serious mental problems, and is both unwilling and unlikely to face up to anything, irrespective of who is doing the telling.
Either a military coup or an impeachment is necessary to change anything before January, 2009.
-GFO
You want to know how bad it really is? Steve Clemons is traveling the UAE and reports what a top Arabic security specialist told him. Let me paraphrase.
The clear victory by the Democrats in last month’s election amounts to a resounding vote of no confidence in the Bush administration. Ask Sen. Lincoln Chaffee who had approval ratings of about 65% at the same time he lost his election to a Democrat.
If America had a Parliamentary government, the government would have fallen November 8th, and it would have been replaced by one that was a broad-based coalition. As it is, all we have gotten is a new Secretary of Defense. Better than nothing, I guess, but we also need a new Secretary of State.
Certainly I would appoint a roving ambassador to the ME, with command authority over all diplomacy in that area. He would be co-located with the Centcom Commander (who already has the same kind of unified control of military forces in the ME), and the two directed to coordinate their activities. They would have to have mostly a free hand from the President and the two Secretaries. This would only work with a hands-on President to knock heads together when they disagreed, so with Bush in office, it would not happen.
In the absence of some strategic vision, further changes in top personnel and coordination of activities between the U.S. and our ME allies, the next two to three years looks pretty damned bleak to me.
LindaR @
25
Catching up on my morning reading. LindaR, your last line took my breath away. Damn straight! Torches and pitchforks on the Information Highway!
from atdnext at 103
“We have made a terrible commitment in Iraq…
We need to take one last chance to make it work”
- Leon Panetta
This is what gives little hope that anything will come of this. ‘it’ is what? We’ve had all sorts of rationals for and definitions of what we are doing in Iraq. None of them are possible. We have the responsibility to do whatever we can to stop the killing, even though that will put our guys at great risk. All the other ‘it’ s need to just be ignored.
Of course, all the other ‘it’ s have some political constituency ( as does ‘do nothing’ and ‘hit the road and leave the ragheads to their fate’).
This isn’t just bush’s tarbaby. In someway we are all going to affected, remembered and blamed for whatever is left of Iraq. The nitwit is totally discredited, it doesn’t need to be proven any further. We do need to insist that someone take charge that cares only for the welfare of the Iraqi people.
Carter could do it. Somehow, let him finish out this term or make him the ‘Iraq War Czar’. It isn’t a matter of position or titles, but put someone in charge that has real knowledge and a real sense of humanity and responsibility, and not personal ambition.
Rick B sed this, among other things:
Certainly I would appoint a roving ambassador to the ME, with command authority over all diplomacy in that area.
**********************************************
Bill Clinton?
Comedian Kathleen Madigan has a current album with the same title as this blog entry. She says that Dubya uses “in other words” to explain stuff to us the same way it was explained to him.
“Osama bin Laden is hidin’ out, people! In other words, the man’s playin’ Peek-A-Boo!”
If you need a laugh (and I think you probably do), get a copy of Kathleen’s album. It’s available in stores and on iTunes.
(Ich bin nicht ein “shill”–she’s just really funny).