
Good morning from Boston! Who says we don't have a sense of humor in these parts? The Boston media were still pondering Governor Mitt Romney's decision to allow the State Police to arrest illegal immigrants they find during the course of their duties. But as many of you noted here, the day after reporting this, the press discovered that Mitt used illegals to do his lawns. Why are these guys so predictable? But on to more serious stuff.
Along with numerous other political blogs, Jane and Christy have often analyzed the Administration's massive and persistent violations of the Fourth Amendment protections against domestic warrantless surveillance, actions that go far beyond what Congressional statutes and the Supreme Court have ever sanctioned. The most recent revelations show that the Department of Homeland Security, working with the airline industury and others, has been collecting massive amounts of information about us, presumably to profile us "better," whenever we travel — or do anything else.
If it's becoming true that "we know everything about you," one has to wonder how they intend to use all this personal data, and against whom? And whom do we trust to make sure this is all done for the "right reasons," and by and for the "right people"? Our National Intelligence Director, Mr. Negroponte, assures us new guidelines will solve this problem. But these guys think illegally spying on Americans is just fine, and the whole point of the guidelines is to create an "information sharing environment." So who's watching them?
We have also followed with horror the reports of the Administration's even more troubling practices of detaining persons that the President designates as "unlawful detainees" (including American citizens) holding them in secret (or in secret prisons in other countries to which they have been illegally "rendered"), denying them the right to counsel, and subjecting them to inhumane and/or humiliating treatment and torture. Then, to ensure that the perpetrators can never be held accountable for what are undoubtedly serious crimes — including war crimes — the Administration has done everything it could to deny them any access to US courts to challenge the legality of their detention and treatment.
I don't think it is possible to repeat often enough that these practices have occurred, are continining today, and will continue to occur as long as no one forces the Bush Administration to stop. The shameless pre-election passage of the Military Commissions Act not only ensures that these unlawful and outrageous practices of the US government will continue but also that those responsible for ordering and authorizing these crimes, as well as those who perpetrate them, will function without any serious accountability.
That brings me to something Glenn Greenwald mentioned in this post, which I recommend you read in full. Personal information about his airline travel was revealed under conditions that suggested the information might well have come from the US Department of Home Security, which keeps track of travel information on US persons. Glenn describes this July incident as "an ultimately inconsequential but nonetheless quite illustrative personal experience," but what are we to think of this?
Glenn's point is the one we often make here: when government gathers personal intelligence on people, even for legitimate reasons, that information may wind up being used for illegitimate reasons. That's why the Constitution requires that government obtain warrants for surveillance and why Congressional oversight is so important, but this Administration just doesn't see the need.
I know many of us read Glenn every day. We know what he's writing and how important it is. He is performing some of the most important investigative reporting/blogging in the country, focusing on the many unlawful practices of the Bush regime and on the statements and writings of those who continue to support and condone those practices. His is not abstract reporting; it's a serious, deliberate, arguably dangerous and thus courageous effort to expose the increasingly lawless behavior of a radical regime.
Until now, we understood in the abstract that you or I could, in theory, become an unlawful detainee or somehow become regarded as a potential security threat and then subjected to any or all of this regime's unlawful practices. But I suspect most of us assumed that the odds of this actually happening to one of us were so small as to be essentially irrelevant. We didn't seriously believe it could happen to us.
But Glenn's "inconsequential" experience and the work he's doing, and the fact that this Administration has so little regard for the rule of law and the Bill of Rights all suggest those assumptions may not be as comfortable as we'd like. And think about what we do here. In one way or another, aren't we all Glenn Greenwalds?
I'd like to believe that the next Congress will perform serious oversight of the nation's intelligence gathering efforts and the MCA. I'd like to believe that the Chairs of the various oversight committees understand how important this is. But I wish most that the key chair of the Committee overseeing Homeland Security and its role in the "war on terror" wasn't someone who voted for anything as shameful as the Military Commissions Act.
Update: The Gates nomination hearing is live on CNN, MSNBC and CSPN-2. Live-blogging here is encouraged.
Related posts:
- Leon Panetta Begs and Threatens for Consensus Rather than Oversight
- Obama and Gang of Eight Veto Threat: “Fundamental Compact,” My Ass
- If It’s [Was] Friday, It Must Be State Secrets, Hiding Abuse of Power, in the 9th Circuit
- Fredo Redo: AGAG Doesn’t Recall What He Said Monday
- Intelligence And Epistemology





Spotlight








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

FITZ!
Does this make Mitt Romney a “Lawn Order Republican?”
Off to work, see ya on the flip.
got this from media matters and these people need to be recognized;
Scarecrow! Great post…and it ought to give anyone reading it pause. The Homeland Security folks have been tracking people based on the types of meals they eat on the plane. Well, they are in for a shocker with me — I like ordering “ethnic” meals on the plane because they are always better than the deep fried “American” ones. So, I’m going to be classified as Hindu, Muslim, “salad meal” and Kosher. *g*
shoot, the quote reformated the text
please delete the previous and leave this;
media matters has this up and I want to pay honor;
Rep. John M. Spratt Jr. (SC), who “predicted during the
House floor debate that ‘the outcome after the conflict is actually going
to be the hardest part, and it is far less certain.’ … ‘We do not want to win this war,
only to lose the peace and swell the ranks of terrorists who hate us,’
Spratt said.”Rep. Ike Skelton (MO), who stressed the need for “a plan
for rebuilding of the Iraqi government and society, if the worst comes to pass
and armed conflict is necessary” and noted the “extreme difficulty
of occupying Iraq with its history of autocratic rule, its balkanized ethnic
tensions and its isolated economic system.”Rep. David R. Obey (WI), who “spoke then about poor
preparation for postwar Iraq, a concern he developed after listening to State
Department officials.”Rep. Tammy Baldwin (WI), who ‘’spoke of the
‘postwar challenges,’ saying that ‘there is no history of
democratic government in Iraq,’ that its ‘economy and
infrastructure is in ruins after years of war and sanctions’ and that
rebuilding would take ‘a great deal of money.’ ”Rep. Barbara T. Lee (CA), who “raised questions in the
floor debate that remain unanswered. ‘What is our objective here,’
she asked four years ago, ‘regime change or elimination of weapons of
mass destruction?’ “
ok, formatting isn’t working for me…sorry, it works in preview
Domestic warrantless surveillance is that the same thing as spying on innocent americans?
btw, all — the Gates confirmation hearings in the Senate Armed Services Committee begin at 9:30 am ET. Looks like they will be broadcast live via C-Span3. There should be an online stream for the hearing — so even if you live in the sticks like I do, you should be able to watch if you can get a connection and have enough bandwidth. (Thank goodness for C-Span, let me tell you…)
and just finnished reading your post scarecrow, that is an amazing piece of work…will link often and use as a resource
thanx
It seems that there’s always been a push to “gather intelligence” on American citizens,at least in modern times. DARPA, TIA, Carnivore,Eshalon, and on and on. Once citizens are informed of these means,the programs supposedly”shut down”,but really they just go underground and are given different names and the cycle continues. I guess the difference these days is that BushCo is incompetant,so maybe the info rises to the top faster as a result. Plus alot of info is available on the internets that wasn’t available to the public even 10 yrs ago. Technology as both blessing and curse at the same time.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 9
I mentioned this on the previous thread and don’t want it to be missed
we have to get the democrat memebers of congress to ask gates if he ever heard of the PNAC
if he has we have to get him to DENOUNCE everyone in it fbefore he is confirmed and we have to make sure it’s public why we need him to renounce their sick fraternity
if he did not hear about the PNAC, that’s our chance to educate him, to to educate the members of congress that know nothing about this sick fraternity, and to educate the rest of America…and possibly get the public to demand coverage from corporate propaganda machine
we get him to denoucne the military priniciples of this sick fraternity for him to get confirmed, and renounce the peoplethat subsrived to their moronic “plan”
THIS IS AN EXCELLANT OPORTUNITY and we shoudln’t waste it
Good morning everyone. And thanks, Christy, for the perfect picture. I’m trying to think what I’ve been ordering on airline trips, but I’m still here, so I must be okay.
The Gates hearing should be interesting. Isn’t it true that the Defense Department has the largest intelligence operation/budget in the nation. It doesn’t seem to be doing them much good.
perris @ 10
Thanks perris. Just pulling together a snippet of all the fine work done by Christy, Glenn and many others.
I think we should ask him about the Stargate related programs.
g’morning CHS…a cold morning in the sticks, it is.
An Angry Old Broad — yep.
It’s not inconsequential. It can affect you. It can affect the people you know.
A small business owner — won’t even say what kind of business because people in my community would know immediately about whom I wrote — made a smart-assed angry comment in his workplace, in front of a few customers, not unlike the kind of comments folks have made here or at DailyKos.
Inside a couple of hours, a dark SUV and four suited men wearing RayBans got out and told the business owner he was coming with them.
Did not ask him, TOLD him.
He was questioned for more than four hours. They already knew about family members outside of the country, his recent travel, everything, using all of it to give him a shake-down interview. They released him.
This small business owner could be somebody you visit today; his business is on a main street in this midwest suburb, near another popular store and a stone’s throw from a school. His story didn’t appear in the media, you might not even know it happened.
Who called the Feds on this guy? What complaint did they make? What recourse does this guy have? Would taking any recourse threaten the safety of family members inside and outside the country? Would making a stink about what happened jeopardize his business?
And could this happen to any of us?
Stargate Project
Scarecrow at 13 — the DoD actually controlls the whole of the intel budget — or at least did prior to Negroponte taking the wheel as the Intel czar (or whatever we are calling him these days…). I’m not certain how the budget is controlled now without researching it to be certain (and maybe I’ll do that for a post later on…because that would be good to know for sure), but as I recall, Rummy and Cheney were adament that the purse strings stay in DoD hands when things were re-organized after 9/11.
rumi at 15 — it’s a freezing ass cold morning here. Brrrrrrr…
OT CNN – 3 car bombs kill/wound dozens in Baghdad today
“a bloody backdrop for today’s confirmation hearing”
95% of Iraqis feel less safe now than under Sadam’s control
Christy at 19 — Yes, I remember the fights over the 9/11 Commission recommendations to move the budget to the new Intelligence Czar. What I always found unsettling about the 9/11 recommendatins was the focus on centralized intelligence on a new agency, but little regard for the independence and integrity of that agency and its director. I have no more confidence today that Congress and the public are getting the straight story, unvarnished by Administration neocons, than I had prior to 9/11.
scarecrow! great post on critical topic. what has become of us our understanding of “fellow citizen”, let alone “fellow human”?
Good Morning, selise. Much as been lost, but not irretrievably. And they got that aircraft carrier unstuck from the mud in the Hudson River. That must be a metaphor for something.
Congratulations on a fine post, scarecrow.
Perhaps as insidious as actual governmental surveillance is the continuing unchecked information-gathering done by the private sector “to serve our customers better”. Banks collect all kinds of purchase and movement activity through the credit cards (ever try to rent a room without one?), while, in addition to the NSA, telecom outfits track which internet sites we visit and who we call.
Think this is only used to get a profile of your habits to sell to other businesses who want to target you as a customer? How about the fact that laws prohibiting the federal government from gathering data do nothing to prevent the federal purchase of data from these outfits? Gives “serve our customers better” a whole new meaning, doesn’t it?
Nice and important post, scarecrow.
Conversations about our loss of liberties is a very frequent subject among those I love.
I want them back and I do not trust this administration to do the right thing. I believe it can and has happened to regular folks– we just don’t know about it as Rayne has just chillingly reminded us.
OT– but interesting & I was not aware of this case of treason.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00436.html
MayDaze @ 25
Yes, and they keep asking for more and more information. Every time I fill out an application for anything, they ask questions I’ve never seen before. They don’t tell us at the time what they plan to do with the information or what their disclosure policies are, until six months later, you get a form in the mail that requires you to check a box and mail it back if you don’t want them to continue providing/selling your personal information to others. All the rules seem backwards.
Ditto
Hello,
Might I suggest people add the book…
“No Place to Hide” by Robert Barrow.
http://www.amazon.com/No-Place…..94-7871020
It discusses government and commercial data collection. You’ll be even happier that the Democrats are in charge.
When programs are shut down, I often wonder where the data goes.
scarecrow @ 24
i hope nothing is irretrievable. i tell myself there is hope so long as there is breath.
Angie — I don’t think the WaPo article is OT, if you connect that with the Homeland Security data collection and MayDaze point at 25.
How long do you think it will take before we see stories of Dept of Home Security employees caught peddling the data DHS collects on travelers to companies that want access to the personal preferences of potential customers?
scarecrow @ 27
Right. Many site require you to allow a tracking cookie that tracks all your internet site visits. If you ever read the New York Times agreement that is necessary to get a log-on, it requires acceptance of such a cookie. Not sure if all the Times readers here are aware of that.
Welcome, anonymous. Thanks for the link. It’s right on topic.
Probably not long at all, scarecrow.
I think it odd that “they” won’t tell us which government was getting the data from the dishonored sailor…
National security? There is way too much secrecy in this government and none for us. ;(
MayDaze at 32: A year ago, when Firedoglake was focusing a lot of attention on the warrantless surveillance issues, commenters were suggesting frequent purging of your hard drive cookies and other unwelcome add-ons. I assume this works for the Times?
OT – looks like CSPAN2 will also be showing the Gates confirmation hearing – starting now
also currently on CNN, MSNBC and Fux
Looks like both CNN and MSNBC are carrying the Gates nomination hearings, at least for now. It’s started.
Rayne @
17
here’s a report of my own belated wake up call… here in true-blue MA standing at a silent peace vigil in early 2002 (my very first time even thinking of doing such a thing) earned me a identifiying head shot picture by the worcester police. we were later told (by the chief of police, iirc) that peace activists were a potential threat to society, so was it important to know who we were and who we associated with.
a small thing compared to what others have experienced… but it served a good purpose to sensitize me.
The “if you aren’t doing anything wrong, why worry” argument.
The antidote to this: What did your mother teach you about telling strangers your personal information?
“Who’s Watching the Watchers” indeed. How do we know that some perv–and remember that No. 4 or so guy at Homeland Security who was hitting on underage girls–is not figuring out, from being able to track everyone’s movements, when the children are home alone and selling/sharing that info with like-minded creeps? That blackmail isn’t going on? That business secrets are being stolen, or insider information being obtained? Or burglars aren’t getting info about who’s away on vacation? We have absolutely no guarantee that any info isn’t immediately going into criminal’s hands. We have none that the people gathering the info aren’t criminals.
That’s why Mom said “Don’t tell strangers anything about our business.”
9% of the American people are completely delusional
S C A R E C R O W !
congratulations on a well deserved front page – your comments have always contributed and enhanced my understanding of our discussions here at the lake and this morning’s post – yowza !
klyde @ 40
Do 9% of Americans work for Halliburton/KBR?
OT–but related to TRex above. I learned from a nuclear expert over the weekend that polonium comes only from nuclear weapons type of production. A huge quantity of polonium would amount to the size of a grain of salt.
It is much more toxic inside our body than outside of it.
The theory of the person I spoke to was that this was a clear signal from the Russian government.
scarecrow @ 35
Yes, but to get back in I would think you would have to go through the whole rigamarole (i.e., sign back up) all over again, and, even if not, they would be tracking you for the rest of your session. I have my computer set up to clean cookies every other day and have my firewall set to “high” security status. Since so many sites now require a cookie to function properly, probably the safest setting that still allows utility is one allowing only session cookies.
There are programs that can help you surf anonymously on the internet. I was using “Ghost Surf”. It encrypts your data from your PC to a proxy server, then you jump onto the internet from the proxy server. Your personal information is stripped out. So it hides who you are and where you are from.
Everynow and then, the proxy servers would get bogged down and it certainly slowed the internet connection. But for the trully paranoid (or
censuredcensored) there are ways….Rayne @
17
Well said, Rayne. I think Glenn Greenwald used the term “inconsequential” to avoid being accused of bein hysterical” or “paranoid.” After all, nothing has happened to him yet. But he’s under constant “surveillance” by the rightwing pundits and bloggers that he often covers. And he wouldn’t have mentioned the incident if it wasn’t important.
The point of the private sector control/involvement made by Maydaze @ 25 can’t be underestimated in any way. That is a greater threat to our society than the govt unlawful intrusions.
Great post scarecrow.
I mentioned in another thread that SAIC (Gates) purchased the internet domain name management company in 1995(?)
SAIC owns Network Solutions, Inc. (NSI), which in September, 1995 took over control of Internet Domain Name registration from the National Science Foundation.
This allows a private company, regardless of ownership, to control direction of net traffic in a number of ways. All of this from a govt standpoint falls under the class of nonlethal warfare so we’re essentially spending billions of our tax money to pay contractors to completely monitor our activities.
Gates would be in control of all of these programs, disbursements for contracts and in control of powers under the new Military Commissions Act….yikes!
selise 38 — exactly. I’m certain I’ve been “captured” at protest rallies, too, just waiting for the day that I will be detained at the airport. Probably the next time I fly…you know how dangerous words are to our national security when slung in a thread at FireDogLake, by someone willing to carry a sign protesting the POTUS/VP and shout into a megaphone.
But that’s why I carry a camera at rallies, one of my own. Worth the few bucks to capture anything unusual; at the time (2004) I didn’t look at it that way, but in hindsight, having the camera might have been the one thing that kept a particularly nasty situation from getting worse. Also provided backup for a person who’d been arrested for stepping off a curb and out of the unmarked and highly variable so-called Free Speech Zone.
May have to reconsider the camera phone thing.
Thanks for the post, Scarecrow. It’s scary how much this is like the old saying, “Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.”
For those of you interested in the Gates nomination hearing, but without access to the cable networks — we’ve seen introductory remarks by Chairman Warner and Senator Levin, the Dem ranking member (who remarked on all the issues the next SecDef will face. Next, statements by former Senators Dole and now Borum, who are introducing Gates. Just preliminary puff stuff so far about what a great guy Gates is.
I work not so peripherally in this area. Not in homeland security, but I’ve seen many a data collection operation. The frightening thing is the scope of information collected.
The No Place Left Behind book, there was a van rental agency that used the GPS on the truck to fine the renter for violating their rental contract by speeding.
The electronic tolls know when you’re passing through the gates. Cell phones can tell where you are.
On the flip side, companies also need to be aware that their data can be used against them. E-mail is the most common – Microsoft’s anti-trust case. But surely there will come a day where a court case will use a customers database against them.
Rayne @ 48
Maybe the Palestinians and others have the right idea – wear what amounts to a mask to any political gathering. The anarchists disrupting the WTO in Seattle did so.
Completely agree. Handguns used to be called the “great equalizer.” What CT Bob did with handheld video and audio against Lieberman4Lieberman, really convinced me. If not for Allen’s “Maccaca” moment being recorded, I’m confident Webb would have lost.
Bob Dole – “I’m Bob Dole”
anonymous for this @ 51
Our family in total has several cars. I ordered a batch of those electronic toll thingies and randomly installed them.
When it came time to replace them I was struck by their insistence on matching all of the box numbers to particular cars. They had me go thru the list one by one “so they could make sure.” This would only matter if they need to monitor the movements, it has zero impact on billing.
Gates Conf. Hearing – shorter dude speaking (Boren): Bob Gates is the coolest, most bestest, most bipartisan guy ever. BFF
oh no, I hope Clemons is wrong about this, and thank you for your graciousness scarecrow.
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/co…..esignation
WaPo is live streaming Gates hearing
http://www.washingtonpost.com/
Gates Conf. Hearing – Warner – it is best for the nation if we wrap this thing up quickly. he wants to complete it today.
From a conference
_______________________________
Remarks as delivered to the C4ISR Integration Conference, Crystal City, Va., Nov. 2, 2006
…
I want to discuss with you today a subject I regard as extremely critical: the Freedom of Cyberspace.
Just last week Deputy Secretary of Defense Gordon England, speaking before a major network warfare audience, listed the attempts of hackers, “Cyber-vigilantes”, terrorists, and even hostile nation-states to degrade our Fighting Networks as the single issue that he spends “more time thinking about in the middle of the night, than any other.”
Before addressing Cyberspace directly, I want to set some context, first as to the Mission of the Air Force, then as to the topics of this Conference, and also as to what we are learning from current combat.
I. The Mission of the Air Force is to deliver sovereign options for the defense of the United States of America and its global interests– to fly and fight in Air, Space and Cyberspace. This was defined a year ago, and then codified a month later, on December 5, 2005.
# “Delivering Sovereign Options” means operating across the Joint Spectrum so that we provide to the President scalable choices that are unlimited by distance and time, and span the entire range from humanitarian assistance to nuclear strike, kinetic and non-kinetic.
# In Short: Global Reach, Global Vigilance, Global Power.
# This includes the powerful option to use timely information to deter and to avoid use of kinetic weaponry. General Curtis LeMay emphasized this when he said, “Peace is our Profession,” making it the slogan of the Strategic Air Command.
# All these options have one common foundation — persistent, lethal, overwhelming Air, Space and Cyberspace power massed and brought to bear anywhere, anytime.
# Thus, the Air Force serves by being prepared to set Strategic, and then, if needed, also Tactical, Conditions for deterrence, dissuasion, or defeat, and in this way offer to our Commanders options throughout the spectrum of conflict.
# Air Force Chief of Staff General Moseley likes to say, “the soul of an Air Force is Range and Payload.” I would salt and pepper Persistence in there as well. That is why after 53 years we are again seeking 21st Century parallel Strategic Assets in the form of new tankers and global strike to meet our responsibilities in the Air Domain, emphasizing expeditionary, as well as persistent Strategic options, to ensure the robustness of the Nation’s Global Power; and recognizing that the replacement of our Satellite Constellation is at hand, to fulfill our Global Vigilance task.
II. Now, consider how Cyberspace stands in relation to the topic of this Conference. The topic is “C4ISR.” For many in the military and certainly for others in the daily walk of life, it helps to take a moment and parse the elements of the acronym.
There are four “C’s” — “Command”, Control”; “Computers”, and Communication”, then, “Intelligence”, “Surveillance” and “Reconnaissance”. …
_________________________________
feel free to trim or delete this comment if it’s too large of a post too early in the thread. It’s only an exerpt but I couldn’t trim it down any more. It’s all too important. We are all considered a potential threat now.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 5
Somewhere in the bowels of NSA headquarters, a computer just crashed. Bless you, my child.
Rayne @ 48
the one thing we have going for us is the incompetence of people who think peaceful protest is a security threat. here’s another home town story – this time about a friend of mine who was visiting spain for a family wedding (she was in worcester for her graduate studies). while she was gone, her room mates decided to have a open house party to show a movie. they posted the invite on the internet which, apparently because of the topic of the movie, prompted the fbi to issues a nation-wide terrorism alert. i kid you not. my friend turned on cnn to see the story. her first thought was “holy shit, i’m never getting back in the usa to finish my studies”. luckily she had no problem upon her return. her room mates (and their friends) were not so lucky… the story is much longer and more complicated… none of it reflected well on the fbi.
oh my! timely wrt to DHS and illegal activity:
http://www.rawstory.com/
rumi @ 15
Unless you’ve been accidentally accessing Jack O’Neill’s mind for seven years through an Ancient communication device, buddy, you aren’t even supposed to know about that.
MayDaze — I have a different attitude about the masks; a mask draws attention and says “I have something to hide”. I won’t hide my face.
But I’m going to watch what you* do in public, and I’m going to make sure others see it. I, too, believe that the “macaca moment” caught on film was the tipping point for the Allen campaign, and it merited the public’s attention; if Allen acts this way in a public venue, how does he act behind closed doors while conducting public business? I can’t infer that without seeing his conduct in plein air.
anonymous for this 51 — yes, it’s insidious how much is captured about our movements. The local news trumpeted the implementation of new cameras at traffic stops, intended for use in traffic flow management; the reporter noted that the cameras check license plate numbers. Excuse me? Much older but reliable traffic management systems work on detecting traffic volume passing over a sensor without ID’ing the traffic…what was wrong with that? How is traffic flow improved by knowing I’m at the red light instead of you?? Agh. I’ll bet nobody in that jurisdiction questioned this at all.
edit: * – the editorial “you” referring to public officials, not you specifically. Just to be clear on this.
Warner announces that for the Gates confirmation hearing, the Committee will also hold a secret session to consider classified matters.
Angie — I assume that the President’s pouting about Bolton was timed and structured to help, Gates. Par for the course. But the availability of the secret session may also be a means to defer sensitive questions about Gate’s past to that session, off camera, even though much of the information from that period is now declassified.
scarecrow @ 46
I just read Glenn Greenwald’s entry. This is all completely outrageous. How dare they post his personal info on the website. And what creep would use his job to inform these other creeps (rightwing bloggers) when and how Greenwald enters the U.S.?
Questioning begins of Gates: Warner leads Gates through a series of questions, in which Gates says “yes, sir” that he will obey the law, keep Congress informed, provide requested material when asked, protect whistleblowers, and so on.
EvilDrPuma @ 64
It was declassified in 95 and ’supposedly’ stopped. Gates talked about it on Nightline…unless you just told me it never stopped.
:-)
What does the President mean by staying in Iraq until mission completed? Gates repeats Bush lines . Thinks Bush wants him “to take a fresh look, and all options are on the table.”
jim p @ 39
It always amazes me that people are so willling to allow the government to invade their privacy by reasoning that giving it up proves that they have nothing to hide.
You give a good example of how to get people on board with the idea of protecting their privacy. We need to illustrate that the “government entity” we speak of that is collecting this info, is actually not some faceless unknown being – this info is collected by people, grunts in offices and passed along to supervisors, and their supervisors and so on; there are lots of folks that see our info, and we don’t know who they are. Like you pointed out, they could be crooks.
Who are these people? Who works for Homeland Security? What is their backround? Do they like look at porn? What kind of meals do they eat on airlines?
And if the idea that these laws could allow anyone to report you i.e., a neighbor that doesn’t like you or a business competitor or a coworker that wants your job, and get you taken away to be interrogated, well maybe people might start to wake up to how important our rights really are. Maybe?
MayDaze @ 52
i don’t hide my identity – that is part of my nonviolent resistance…. and when i participated in nonviolent protest with palestinians (and israelis) no one wore masks.
i wasn’t at the seattle wto protest (that was before i started paying close attention), but i was at the ftta protests in miami 2003, and a few people did wear masks… that really freaked the police.
my conclusion is that both mask wearing and non-mask wearing are effective – so long as the motivation is one of resistance and not only an attempt to hide one’s identity.
scarecrow @ 68
Meaningless drivel, of course. If we’ve learned one thing after six years of Bush appointees, it should be to not believe a single word from this man’s mouth.
More secrecy here:
it’s stunning.
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._1205.html
Rayne @ 65
You have a point about drawing attention, although I think in the winter it wouldn’t be all that noticeable. If a large group all did it as a protest of surveillance, it might send an interesting message.
scarecrow @ 68
If Warner hasn’t called him a liar yet, it’s all just kabuki.
Gates is a liar, and that’s that. Warner doesn’t know what day it is, let alone whether or not Gates is giving him the straight shot.
evildoc @ 64
…hang on, my modem keeps cutting in and out. Fortunately, I can fashion a new one to bypass it with a paper clip, some tin foil and a wing nut I just happen to carry with me…
it’ll be the rune of us all… :-)
Levin to gates – do u believe we are currently winning in iraq?
gates – no sir.
Was that my revered Sen Byrd who eloquently asked “huh?”
Levin question: Are we winning in Iraq? Gates: No , sir.
Levin: do you believe that end of violence require political settlement, and we need to pressure them to do that? Yes, sir, I do.
Does an open-ended message of stay till job done convey message it’s our responsibility, rather than theirs? Gates: haven’t talked to Bush about what he said. But US will need some presence for a long time, because Iraq doesn’t have own logistic, air power. Whatever approach Pres comes up with, this will still take some time, but could be smaller size US forces. We’ll help as longs as they want our help.
rumi @ 79
i think it was – and not too long after warner had said he wanted to get this done quickly
rumi @ 79
Yup. When Gates answered Warner: Yes, to the best of my ability (about turning over data to Congress)
MayDaze @ 75
V for Vendetta image flashing in my head…
scarecrow @ 80
EvilDrPuma: Does it really help to lead the testimony with packaged yes-or-no questions?
Levin: Say what?
Ahh, “Who watches the watchmen?”
And excellent question from Juvenal’s Satire VI.
And satire, usually succulent, has been used in Juvenal’s time, just as in ours, to expose the corruption and foolishness of a society.
It is absolutely by no coincidence, in my mind, that this quote appears as an epigraph to the Tower Commission Report.
And so we come full circle to Iran-Contra and Mr. Gates. He has been a “watchman” in the past and failed miserably. Is it a forgone conclusion that he must be given another chance? Who watches those who do not watch the watchmen, but should?
scarecrow @ 80
Levin: I’m a great fan of kabuki theater. And, oh, yeah, I’m a fuckin’ joke, too.
How about some jugular, Carl?
EvilDrPuma @ 84
What?
Levin asks about former Sec of State Schultz about his criticism of Gates. Gates said he respects Schultz. Reality is that Schultz was influenced by CIA’s Casey, and they didn’t get along. Casey tried to advise, but Schultz thought Casey should be fired. That bad blood influence Schultz view of intelligence [and by implication, his view of Gates and whether Gates was selectively feeding and/or withhold data fom Schultz] they disagreed about intelligence, and no one was right all the time. When intel made things worse for Schultz or what he was trying to do, that was a problem. But Schultz never criticized him [even though Schultz memoir says he did !!!]
just wanted to clarify – i don’t wear a mask at protests, because i don’t hide my identity from the police or fbi. that doesn’t mean i want to paint a bull’s eye on myself (i don’t want to attract a local crazy, i’ve gotten enough hate mail-type stuff already)…. that’s why i post under the same “selise”, not it it is much of an impediment to a determined effort to find me out.
anonymous for this 83 — Oh, mos def, a great image. However, if every single person at a protest wore a Guy Fawkes mask, the message would be entirely clear but not the same message as that being conveyed at the protest rallies I attended.
twolf1 @ 42
No! The staffs of the WSJ editorial page, The National Review, The New Republican(sic) and the Weakly(sic) Standard.
Diane Rheim today reminded me why I’ll never contribute to NPR again. Discussing the gates hearings she has david frum on. Frum has been wrong on everything, yet NPR gives him a place at the table.
scarecrow @ 88
thank you for the background. i didn’t know any of that!
Gah. McCain. Poking around about the possibility of increasing the number of troops on the ground in Iraq.
Speaking of which, I note that my AOL email account has a banner ad for McCain’s exploratory committee.
Doesn’t sound very exploratory to me when it splashes a bunch of hoo-haw about what a great conservative he is and asks, “Join the Movement”. (Ugh. If you have to use the word, “movement” to solicit engagement, you’re little more than a function of the lower bowel.)
McCain: do you agree in hindsight we didn’t have enough troops to maintain control after invasison.
Yes.
Mc: When did we arrive at having “sufficient troops”
G: While in Iraq for ISG, we asked about need for more troops, and the answer they got was “we have enough.” But maybe the SecDef would get a different answer.
Mc: if things are failing, why is “we have enough” correct? do we need to increase size of Marine Corp and Army?
G: Open to increase in size; however, we have reserves and Guard, so he wants to ensure that current forces are doing what they should be doing. [implication is that maybe we need more in Iraq, but they could come from current forces who aren’t doing what we want them to do now]
Mc: re Gen. Zinni comment about al-Maliki — “can’t put pressure on a wounded guy.” Are they capable of coming up with a solution? this may be our last chance, and requires we get control. And what do we say to families who lost troops in Fallujah, which we abandoned? [Kerry’s question in a new form?]
No response; time up.
Where did Rummy drop off the face of the planet to, anyway?
Fed court to hear ‘landmark torture case’ against Rumsfeld
RAW STORY
Published: Monday December 4, 2006
In a press release issued today, the American Civil Liberties Union announces that a “landmark” case against Donald Rumsfeld will be heard in federal court this week.
The ACLU and another legal rights organization, Human Rights First, are to appear in court here on Friday “to argue that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is directly responsible for the torture and abuse of detainees in U.S. military custody,” said the release.
snip
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2….._1204.html
What I really want Levin–or anyone–to ask Gates, is: “you, your old fart friends, Scowcroft, Woolsey, Bush I, JB3, Rev. Moon, all your globalization cronies, all you want to do is run the world and make big bucks doing so, and leave as few fingerprints as possible. Isn’t that right? Isn’t that what you really want to do? Why should I or any sentient citizen believe a goddamned thing you say today?”
Why won’t anyone, anywhere, say something as simple as that?
Rayne @ 93
I saw that ad too, I just didn’t click on it. “Be a part of it from the beginning” was enough to put me off my cookies.
anonymous for this @ 83
Didn’t occur to me when I wrote the comment, but that’s exactly what I was going for.
scarecrow @ 88
Good stuff scarecrow. And excellent post, dovetailing nicely with Greenwald. It sounds like there are quite a few dirty little intrigues in this man’s past. Is he really the guy we need to bring into one of the most volatile circumstances in recent history; considering his baggage? It just doesn’t seem the smartest, but maybe it’s the best they’ve got.
Ray McGovern’s take:
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1204-31.htm
Bustednuckles @ 95
He’s hiding under Dick Cheney’s undisclosed location.
Kennedy statement/questions:
Will Gates be independent figure? 59 Americans have been killed since Gate’s nomination, and more will be killed before end of year. His State wants to know that Gates will [support the troops] and that there is a policy worthy of the sacrifice. Are you that person? [this seems a sign that Dems are not going to press Gates hard]
Gates: I understand the deaths, because 12 deaths were students at Texa A&M. I care. Says he feels pressure to bring them home safe.
[Not sure anything truly newworthy will come of this hearing. Will hold off till it’s clear.]
montag @ 96
We can always hope Sen Byrd thinks of it and stays alert enough to ask the question…as time expires.
scarecrow @ 102
I’m sure Kennedy’s was a rhetorical question. Bush does not nominate “independent figures” for cabinet-level posts, and he damned well knows it.
Inhofe sees success in Iraq.
this numbskull says there are no mass graves anymore.
oh really?
Inhofe plugs away for his defense contractors.
inhofe to gates – u said we aren’t winning in Iraq. gen. pace said yesterday that we’re not winning but we aren’t losing. do u agree w/ that?
gates. yessir, I do.
scarecrow @
66
I think a large portion of the use of secret sessions is to inform the nominees that they know all about the skeletons they have dangling in their walk-ins, and that we aren’t that dumb, so watch it, bub. The need for the sessions to be in secret is to prevent the public from asking the obvious questions: If this guy is such a SOB, why are you voting for him, and, about that skeleton, WTF was that all about?
angie @ 105
I used to say this only about Bush, but, on due introspection, I include Inhofe in this: It’s one thing to have your head up your ass. It’s quite another to admire the view.
I note CNN is breaking off to listen to themselves, and MSNBC has also done so. So cables are sensing that Q&A in the hearing itself is less interesting than what their own “experts” say.
jeffreyw @ 107
And, then, they go ahead and vote the creep in.
scarecrow at 102 — I am getting the feeling that the real questions will occur in the closed session, since they have to kate around so much for national security reasons with Gates in public. Annoying for our purposes — and that makes it very difficult to do any sort of sunshine review. Have a couple of calls in, and will let everyone know if I hear anything back of use.
montag @ 108– true, that!
scarecrow @ 109
so far, it does seem to me to be mostly kabuki….
I appreciate the live-blogging, since I don’t get C-span. But does anyone here seriously think there will be any meaningful opposition to Gates? Looks like a lot of talk followed by a 98 to 1 vote – and that’s if Finegold votes no.
angie @ 105
“I see stupid people….
MayDaze @ 114
feingold almost always votes “yes” for the president’s appointments.
Jeebus — Inhofe is asking Gates whether he would agree that reading classified reports on China is important? THAT is oversight?!?
What kind of crack is Inhofe smoking?
What a f*cking maroon.
There are no more mass graves???
Letting the government watch itself is like going away for the weekend and letting your teenagers have a little party.
They assure you that everything will be fine.
montag @ 108
C’mon Senator Byrd… please!
Robert Byrd up now…
Chhristy, don’t know if you saw this last night, but http://www.lightkeeperpro.com sells a cool 3 way bulb tester. We bought ours at Lowes for $16 and it saved us from having to replace our fake tree.
Great post scarecrow!
You rock!
More please.
byrd to gates – do u support an attack on iran
gates – it would b a last resort. 1st option is diplomacy and working w/ out allies. we have seen in iraq that once war is unleashed, it becomes unpredictable.
byrd – do u support attack on syria
gates – no sir
selise @ 116
Yeah, I forgot about his “the President gets his guy” attitude.
egregious @ 124
Good morning egregious. Nice to hear from you.
new thread
Byrd: do you support an attack on Iran or Syria?
1) diplomacy first
2) no
Do you think the Preznit can use previous auths for attacks on either?
No.
Twisted at 123 — I did, and I picked one up this morning when I ran out to do an errand. Thanks much — I would never have even known it existed. :) Will make my tree set-up today MUCH easier as a result. Appreciate it!
twolf1 @ 125
Message to Syria: if want attention, and want all options to be on the table (including concessions from the US on what Syria wants), then start a nuclear program.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 117
And I got shit because I suggested that OK was fucked because the majority there kept voting this retarded, club-footed, intellectually hare-lipped lemming into office….
Exxxxcuuuuusssse meeeeeee!
byrd re OBL – We got saddam in 8 months but OBL is still free after 5 years, who is responsible for 9/11, saddam or OBL
gates – OBL
Byrd: Who is responsible for the 9/11 attacks? Saddam or bin Laden?
G: bin Laden
B: Who is a bigger threat to the US these past five yrs?
G: bin Laden
Byrd: How you gonna catch him?
Gates: I’ll continue to search for him…… He can’t do much now. Important to keep him on the run. One of his own people will turn him in.
Me:(no they won’t)
montaq — you certainly didn’t get sh*t from me about Inhofe.
That odious and intellectually-stunted dreck needs to go.
Rayne @ 135
Ah, well, I won’t mention names, but someone close to Oklahoma thought I was very unfair because I made disparaging remarks about Oklahomans because they kept reelecting this succubus named Inhofe… for twenty fucking years. :)
Extra points for being only three letters off of the title of a particularly good Star Trek episode (Who Watches the Watchers, TNG). LOL
montag @ 132
via TPM more in inhofe nonsense:
The hearing will look at how the media has presented scientific evidence regarding predictions of human-caused catastrophic global warming, the senator’s office said.
“Senator Inhofe believes that poorly conceived policy decisions will result from the media’s nonstop hyping of ‘extreme scenarios’ and dire climate predictions,” said committee Communications Director Marc Morano. “This hearing will serve to advance the interests of sound science and encourage rational policy decisions.”
Fresh thread, gang.
selise @ 138
If Inhofe were a cartoon character, he would be Wily Coyote.
scarecrow at 94:
This, I fear, will be the theme for the day’s hearing….
ps great post scarecrow, thanks for reminding us what we’ve lost.
montag @ 136
Go ahead, mention names. My problem with your earlier post was that you castigated everyone in the state for the actions of the majority, and I compared that to the nation electing Bush to try to demonstrate how discriminatory that characterization is. To me, making judgments about whole populations due to the actions of some, even a majority, is intellectually dishonest when that population is not self-defining. It’s like racism or sexism. You may think that, since people choose where they live, it’s fine to judge them by that standard, but just because I needed a job and found one here doesn’t make me a redneck – it just made me employed.
Mitt Romney a hypocrite?! I can hardly believe a Republican could be a hypocrite. After all, they’re the party of moral values.
Great post. -grant
http://www.seriouskidding.com
MayDaze @ 142
No, it’s neither like racism or sexism. The person wasn’t you. And, if you defend the majority because you are a resident of the state, I place you in the same category. Regions are defined by their majorities–sorry. If you were in Alabama in 1922, I wouldn’t accuse you of lynching blacks, even though lynching blacks was perfectly acceptable there at that time. But, I would be well within my rights to condemn that state–and its citizens–you included–for tolerating that state of affairs within its borders, because it was acceptable to its majority, and because you chose to willingly merge your identity with such people.
No different with Oklahoma electing someone like Inhofe to national office for twenty years running. If you stake your identity on where you live, you accept the will of the majority there.
I don’t defend the assholes in Congress from my state, and I don’t defend the people here who keep putting them in office, just because I live here. I think they’re stone cold fuckin’ crazy to do so, and I don’t identify with them. I don’t belong to a geographical state, or to a particular cultural group of yahoos in my region.
But, when you start feeling put upon because I say nasty things about Oklahomans–in general–because the majority of them keep putting a mental bottom-feeder like Inhofe in national office for goddamned near forever–don’t kid yourself, you’re defending them, not yourself or your place of employment.
montag @ 144
You cleverly quote only a part of my comment. The part you ignored was:
My problem with your earlier post was that you castigated everyone in the state for the actions of the majority…
What you said was about ALL Oklahomans, not just those who voted for Inhofe. If you look at what I said, I never defended those who voted for Inhofe. You don’t seem to get that my issue is condemning everyone in the state for the actions of some. If that’s not discrimination, then define the term yourself. I stand by my statement – it’s like racism or sexism.
montag @ 144
One further point – I don’t stake my identity on where I live. But I do live here, and that fact says exactly nothing about me as an individual. What would you have me do – leave the state because I disagree with the politics of the majority? Have you left the country, or do you agree with the politics of GW Bush???
Christy Hardin Smith @ 130
From international politics to how to set up your holiday lights, we are a full-service blog.
Christy said (in the next thread):
You know, whatever testy substance is in the water today — I’m truly not in the mood for internal sniping. Just FYI to everyone. Let’s all take a deep breath and try not to snipe at each other in the comments please, recognize that people are entitled to their own, different opinions, and try and be repsectful of that. Don’t make me have to post another “civility” thread. *g*
Christy, if you see this, I just wanted to get your take (if you have time) on the “discussion” I had here with montag. I know I got a little pissed in the last comment (of the two he didn’t respond to), but I think he was way out of line here and called him on it. The left is different from the right not only because of our politics and economics, but because we are willing to examine our beliefs and statements and subject them to debate, something the right virtually never does.
I could go on, but I know you get it. I respect your opinion, and, after all, it’s Jane’s and your blog. Do you think I was out of line here?