
[Amb. Joe Wilson joins us for discussion in the comments. As always, with guests at FDL, please be polite and stay on topic for the course of the discussion herein. Please join me in giving Amb. Wilson a big FDL welcome. -- CHS]
Amb. Joseph Wilson has graciously agreed to join in on a discussion here today regarding the mess that is Iraq, diplomacy, regional difficulties, the potential for American soliders having to fight their way out if and when we finally do leave Iraq and a whole host of other issues surrounding the chaotic failure in which the Bush Administration has mired us. (My words, not Joe's — I'll let him characterize this on his own in the comments.)
From Amb. Wilson's Book The Politics of Truth, we find his long record of service to this nation as a diplomat:
1976-1978: General Services Officer, Niamey, Niger
1978-1979: Administrative Office, Lomé, Togo
1979-1981: Administrative Officer, U.S. State Department, Washington, D.C.
1981-1982: Administrative Officer, Pretoria, South Africa
1982-1985: Deputy Chief of Mission (DCM), Bujumbura, Burundi
1985-1986: Congressional Fellow, offices of Senator Al Gore and Representative Tom Foley
1986-1988: DCM, Brazzaville, Republic of the Congo
1988-1991: DCM, Baghdad, Iraq
1992-1995: Ambassador to Gabon and São Tomé and Príncipe
1995-1997: Political Adviser to Commander in Chief U.S. Armed Forces, Europe EUCOM, Stuttgart, Germany
1997-1998: Special Assistant to President Bill Clinton and Senior Director for African Affairs, National Security Council, Washington, D.C. (p. 451)
While Amb. Wilson was the Deputy Chief of Mission in Iraq, he was put to the test by none other than Saddam himself:
As acting ambassador to Iraq in the run-up to the first Gulf War, he was the last US diplomat to meet with Saddam Hussein, in 1991.He very publicly defied the Iraqi strongman by giving refuge to more than 100 US citizens at the embassy and in the homes of US diplomats – at a time when Saddam Hussein was threatening to execute anyone who harboured foreigners.
He then addressed journalists wearing a hangman's noose instead of a necktie.
He later told the Washington Post newspaper that the message to Saddam Hussein was: "If you want to execute me, I'll bring my own [expletive] rope."
It is this background that Amb. Wilson brings to the table for today's discussion — a long history of serving this nation in the field as a diplomat in the center of any number of ethnic, regional and substantial conflicts across the continent of Africa and within Iraq itself, and as an advisor to both military and Presidential national security considerations and to Congressional offices charged with providing sorely needed oversight.
With that in mind, let's look back at some historical context provided by Steve Gilliard in a post last night regarding US retreat from combat operations in the past — and what lessons we should take from those retreats for the current situation in Iraq. As Steve concludes:
One of the things Americans have to get over is their belief in American superiority. An American army can be decimated in a retreat, even by an enemy without airpower. The problem for the US Army in any retreat from Iraq will be the thousands of Iraqis who will want to flee with them and the thousands of POG's (people other than grunts), who will be in that convoy. They might not do so well when they're attacked.
Looking at the roads of Iraq, there are only a few routes south, and they can be blocked and fought over. Which makes leaving in a fighting retreat difficult.
Which makes whatever considerations are being given to such an exit all the more critical — this cannot be done without careful and adequate planning for the worst case scenarios, something that the Bush Administration so clearly failed at doing in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq for the extended period of occupation in which we have been mired the past three years and counting.
On NPR this morning, there was a surprisingly candid and insightful interview with Vali Nasr, author of The Shia Revival: How Conflicts within Islam will Shape the Future and a professor at the Naval Postgraduate School. During the course of the interview, he says:
"We are not able to control events that keep escalating," Nasr tells Steve Inskeep. "We might be able to control the tempo of it, but we cannot easily stop it at this juncture."
A civil war isn't necessary, Nasr says, "but it is necessary to finalize the distribution of power in Iraq. And without a viable political road map, one that the various factions are willing to sit down and negotiate around, increasingly it's evident that the fate of the country is going to be decided by gunmen on the street, and that's what we're increasingly seeing…."
What would happen if the U.S. stepped out of the way?
"There would be a big battle for power in Baghdad and also there would be a big battle between the Shiites and Sunnis and ultimately between the Sunnis and the Kurds over who gets what and where does each stand once the dust settles," Nasr says.
It would be a "much more severe conflict — which then we can actually call a civil war — over who gets Baghdad, who gets Kirkuk, who gets Mosul, and where… the ultimate lines between these constituent parts of Iraq will lay."
While this is a single perspective on this mess, the thing that reverberated for me in this interview was that there has been — and continues to be — no political roadmap. It is simply a "git er done" fiat from the Bush Administration to a nation that was cobbled together by colonial powers back in the heyday of imperialism, and an expectation that they will somehow be able to figure out for themselves, after years and years of conflict and oppression, how to be "democratic" while staring down the barrel of yet another gun. It is madness, and it is a set-up for failure from the start. And the Bush Administration ought to have known this, and planned for contingency interventions along the way — but their failed approach to some sort of "hands off style of diplomacy" has not allowed them to do so. And we are all reaping the costs of it as a result.
With headlines like the recent one in the LATimes "Mideast Allies Near A State Of Panic" and in Australia's The Age "Mideast Too Complex For America," and even a late-planted stiletto from Bob Novak in today's WaPo entitled "Bush's Shrinking Options," it is no secret that expectations for the Bush Administration's handling of this mess are abysmally low.
But that leaves our military personnel, our diplomatic staff and the countless aid workers and infrastructure builders in an untenable position. And these folks all deserve far better from all of us than that.
With the ISG's report put off until likely some time in January, we felt that it was high time some serious discussion took place publicly about the potential for increasing chaos, the problems inherent in the current situtation and in any of the possible solutions that have been discussed thus far in the public arena. And Amb. Joseph Wilson joins us today in the comments to do just that. I look forward to some good debate, some in-depth questions and a lot of frank discussion.
Please join me in welcoming Ambassador Joseph Wilson.
UPDATE: As reader Hugh points out, the ISG site now lists Dec. 6th, 2006 as the release date for the report.
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Thanks so much for being here today, Joe. I know people have lot of questions and really appreciate you taking the time to answer them.
As Christy said, if you have any off-topic comments, please feel free to leave them in the previous thread.
Hello Ambassador,
Thanks for standing up for our country, and for coming here to FDL.
Two questions:
Four US helicopters went down in the Anbar Province this past week, in addition to the F-16 crash there last Monday. Would you speculate as to the likely cause of this sudden increase in crash frequency, and if due to new weapons going into the province, would you care to speculate on likely sources of those weapons?
Second, and mildly OT: what is the status of your and Valerie’s legal fund, and would you like me to donate? =)
Cheers,
Marc Lord
Welcome, Mr. Ambassador.
Ambassador Wilson, thank you so much for visiting Firedoglake.
Wrt the Middle East, I picked this distinction up between “fixers” and “spoilers” from Dennis Ross, a Clinton Middle East expert on the (Jim Lehrer) News Hour.
I was just wondering if you wanted to respond/react to Mr. Ross’ comments.
Deepest wishes to you and Valerie for a blessed holiday season. For many of us you two and your children are the “First Family.”
Ambassador Wilson. It sounds so much better that Ambassador ‘Yosemite Sam’ Bolton.
I’d like to know if your fundraising site for the lawsuit is still up and running. After spending good money on good results in November, I’d like to still be able to contribute to the good.
Ambassador Wilson,
Do you have an opinion on Robert Gates as Secretary of Defense?
Thank you, it’s great to see you here again!
Welcome, Amb. Wilson. Wish it were a cheerier topic, but we are delighted to discuss it with you here today.
Welcome Welcome Ambassador.
One question.
Can you name one diplomat, that you know of, who would have more experience and aplomb(other than yourself) who could possibly have any impact reguarding talks in Iraq?
I too salute you, Joe, for your family’s courage and patriotism.
Do you think there’s any realistic likelihood that Bush would take any sort of unilateral military action against Iran in 2007?
_
MarcLord @ 2
Great to be here today. Thanks to Jane and Christy and everybody at FDL (and of course Howie) for all you do.
As to the frequency of helo crashes, I have no idea. It is not impossible that standards of maintenance are slipping and that ops tempo of the equipment is making their performance less reliable. It is also possible it is a spate of bad luck, or that the insurgents are getting better at targetting.
As to the legal fund, http://www.wilsonsupport.org is the site to go to. We will be filing responses to the defendents motions to dismiss by mid January. Our goal is to depose them. theirs is to avoid that prospect.
Welcome back, Joe. It’s a delight to have you and I’m looking forward, with great trepidation, to your insights.
Ambassador Wilson. Welcome and thank you for being here.
What an honor to have Ambassador Wilson join the firepups – thank you for offering to share your expertise with us!
Ambassador Wilson. Welcome! Thank you for your service and being here today. Hope is needed in this country and individuals like you who speak truth to power provide it. Thank you!
Ambassador Wilson, thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to meet with us. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Iraq.
Do you see any way out?
John Casper @ 4
The utility of engaging Iraq’s neighbors and indeed all the backers of the various insurgent groups is to bring additional pressure to bear on the insurgents to channel their differences into political negotiations and to provide guarantors to any compromises that they might be called upon to make. As Dennis well knows, one of the roles of the US over the years has been to be the guarantor that any compromises made in the Arab Israeli peace process would not be the beginning of the end for the state of Israel.
Iraqi factions may not be able to find the necessary compromises without outside pressure and guarantees.
Siun @ 13
hear, hear! thank you for joining us today.
Mr. Ambassador, well come, sir! If you are not already working on a response, I feel John Casper’s question at #4 is a vital one.
Hello, Ambassador. Who would you like to see as Ambassador to the UN now that Bolton is leaving? And who would you like to see as Ambassador to Iraq, since it’s rumored Kahlilzad may be leaving?
Forget whether or not the Bush administration would like them, who would do the best job? Thanks so much.
An honor, Ambassador Wilson, thank you for visiting the lake.
Perhaps you could share your thoughts on Bolton’s UN tenure, as well who might (should) replace him?
Ambassador Wilson, welcome.
You will get a few questions as to what, in your opinion, we should do about Iraq.
My questions are: What will Bush do? Why do you think that?
Bustednuckles(Phil) @ 8
I have a lot of respect for Jim Baker. He is tough enough, experienced enough and savvy enough to pull a rabbit out of the hat if there is one in there. The problem is we are so far down the road on the way to chaos that there may not be any way to stop this until all sides are exhausted. The question is not whether the situation has become a civil war but rather whether it has degenerated from a civil war to out and out anarchy and a failed state.
Thanks for being here today. And thanks to both you and your wife for keeping this administration’s feet to fire with your case.
The situation right now sounds like damned if you and damned if you don’t. For Americans and Iraqis.
What are your ideas on what to do that is least bad?
Is there any will among the factions to solve their problems without war if the Americans leave?
Was there something I missed?
http://www.usip.org/isg/news_r…..rence.html
Welcome Ambassador.
This question may have been asked and answered, and I missed it.
Given your portfolio in Bush 41’s administration, Cheney had to know you then.
The impression that Cheney and the media gives is that you were an unknown quantity when Cheney was leaking Valerie’s credentials.
Cheney knew exactly who you were, had a history with you in Bush 41, and knew exactly who he was damaging, right?
Thank you and your wife for your service.
Hugh at 24 — As of this morning, they were still planning on an early January announcement that I could find. Interesting that there is something planned for December. Pre-holiday news dump?
Ambassador Wilson,
As I look at the various regional leaders, King Abdullah of Jordan stands out to me as one who best understands both his own nation/region and also the US and the West. What is your sense of the different leaders in the middle east, and their ability to be the kind of “honest broker” needed to begin to bring some order out of chaos in Iraq and elsewhere in the region?
Joe Wilson @ 22
I was so hoping to read something else, but that really seems to be the final crux of the matter.
Are there touchpoints to determine just how ‘failed’ the state of the state, in hopes of gaging (as Steve G has shown), the actual difficulties in getting our kids home?
I heard on the BBC last night that Kofi Annan said Iraq has gone beyond civil war and that he regrets not being able to stop the war before it began.
Amb. Wilson:
Ret. Navy Commander Jeff Huber opined that Russia and China have already cut their energy deals with Iran and have no intention of supporting the U.S. in any negotiations that would pressure Iran. Do you agree? Does it seem like President Bush has lost all credibility to negotiate in the ME? Will everyone just humor him until he leaves office in two years? …. to the detriment of any peace in Iraq?
(sorry that’s so many questions).
Ambassador Wilson, could you comment on aan item from Juan Cole’s blog this morning where a Sunni block in parlament is working with the Sadar block to form a colalition to preserve Irag’s unity.
It seems to me so definite lines are being drawn against the partition block.
Joe at 22 — What a mess — choose between utter chaos or anarchy? *shaking head here*
Joe Wilson @
22
Absolutely. I think that media outlets arguing on whether or not to call it a “civil war” are a bit behind the curve.
Ambassador Wilson,
Welcome. I’ve gotten the impression that the Saudis want the US to remain in Iraq. Have I misinterpreted? How does our presence in Iraq benefit the Saudis?
Good afternoon Mr. Ambassador:
What actions should we take to make the inevitable (but perhaps very drawn-out) withdrawal of our troops, support personnel, and private contractors more orderly and less prone to a terrible chaos? Is it staging things properly in tandem with strong diplomatic actions?
Also, how (if at all) should we be engaging with different leaders of the insurgency (such as Al-Sadr)?
Just a drive-by to give a big hello to all the FDLers and a special welcome to Ambassador Wilson.
johnSwifty @ 28
I think that statement of yours really kindled a desire for a lot of people to have you here, Joe. Can you elaborate on your comment that you’re afraid they’ll have to fight their way out?
Suzanne @ 15
It is tough but I think that we should reshape the debate domestically from the terms currently in use (stay the course, cut and run; strategic redeployment, timetables, and withdrawal) to one in which we consider what it is we are asking our troops to do at this stage of the occupation and whether what they are doing is in our strategic of operational interest. If not they shouldn’t be doing it. The military talks of deployments in terms of troop to task ratios and force protection requirements. We should too.
In short, we should ask the generals to justify the national security requirement of every task US troops are undertaking and if the case cannot be made they shouldn’t be doing it. For example, a couple of soldiers were killed a few months ago, their bodies were mutilated and booby trapped. Jon Kyl argued that we should stay in Iraq to honor their sacrifice. I asked what were they doing that brought them into harm’s way. they were guarding a bridge. Isn’t it legitimate to ask whether it is appropriate for American troops to be guarding bridges this late in the occupation.
So, we should not put Americans unneccessarily in harm’s way, we should not use American firepower to unneccessarily kill Iraqis, we should call on the President to actually take the advice his military commanders have been giving him that he needs to find a political solution and we should reinvigorate the middle east peace process from which we have been awol for six years. But make no mistake about it, it is a tough situation and will require a lot of what the president calls hard work.
This is what keeps me up at night (literally) – from Steve Gilliard last night on the Lake.
Welcome, Ambassador Wilson, thank you for all you’ve done for our country.
My question relates to an interview with Robert Fisk:
“The real question I ask myself is: who are these people who are trying to provoke the civil war?”
http://www.informationclearing…..e12137.htm
Does a civil war in Iraq need provoking? Or does it do that on its own? This statement by Fisk surprised me.
TheOtherWA @ 19
I think Jim Leach or Bob Kimmitt would be good choices for the UN. Ryan Crocker is who I hear is in line for Baghdad. He is a career diplomat and one of the best I know. He has been intimately involved in things Iraqi for a good part of his career, including in the first gulf war and as the director of the State dept. effort to put together a post war plan in the runup to the 2nd gulf war. It is an almost unbelievably tough job. I have great respect for the efforts of Khalilzad, despite my distaste for his brand of neoconservatism when he was promoting policies.
But make no mistake about it, it is a tough situation and will require a lot of what the president calls hard work.If Bush is the “decider”, we’re doomed. Isn’t there any way around Bush?
Thank you for sharing your time and insight with us.
Could you please comment on the likelyhood of the Iraq war escalting to a point that armed conflict begins among the regional powers (Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Israel and others) for either self preservation or the oil wealth of Iraq.
Ambassador Wilson,
Thank you for all you’ve done, especially making yourself available to ordinary citizens.
On my recent flight to the US, I sat with some reservists who say they are due to be rotated back into Iraq in 2008. I don’t have the sense that there will be any meaningful US presence in Iraq at that date. It does look like the Pentagon, though, has plans set rather firmly in that direction, doesn’t it?
Ambassador Wilson -
Several weeks ago, Brian Katulis reported the following on ThinkProgress:
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/…..vil-war-4/
What is your assessment of the observations reported above?
Looking beyond Iraq, what other conflicts do you think are likely to erupt in Iraq and/or elsewhere in the Middle East if the United States were to do one or more of the following: (1) extricate itself as expeditiously as possible from Iraq; (2) remain in Iraq indefinitely; or (3) embark upon a military campaign against neighboring countries in the Middle East?
My immedicate reaction to the portentous announcement that NBC was now willing to call Iraq a “civil war” was that they were arriving at that conclusion just as Iraq was on the cusp of becoming a failed state.
The LA Times refers to US allies in the mideast as “near panic”-an understandable reaction for anyone in the immediate neighborhood I think.
Is there any route that can mitigate the repurcussions of the Iraqi civil war on the far-too-brittle governments of the region?
diogenes @ 25
Is diogenes right. Was Cheney operating in full knowledge of you and your wife’s situation?
I probably know the answer to that; and let me save you from responding by simply echoing many here who hold you in such high regard for pushing back against Cheney and the rest when no one else had the decency and courage to stand up and do so.
Many times I have heard you speak and deny your own heroism in the matter, stating, “Anyone would have done the same in my position.”
I tell you sir, you are very wrong. Not many, not many at all anymore, would have shown a fraction of the honor you have shown.
Welcome Ambassador and thank you very much for being here.
I read a report from HRW regarding the million(s) of displaced Iraqis (internally and externally) that are relying heavily on neighboring countries for help and that those displaced are not given “refugee” status by their neighbors or the US. They are sent back (if found) to the ravaged and dangerous country of Iraq.
I would think that these poor folk are our responsibility under International law and that our occupation and abysmal failure to provide stability and safety have long term repercussions that we have not even dreamed of.
Christy,
Not to belabor the point, but the ISG report according to the ISG site itself (which I cite above) is to be released in two days. The original time frame was in about year of the ISG’s creation which would have been in March or April 2007. This was changed before the election to January 2007 and then as events in Iraq accelerated to mid December and finally December 6, 2006.
Ambassador Wilson, thanks for taking the time out.
A ‘talking shop’ question: do you have any sense of how the US diplomatic mission in Baghdad is functioning right now? There’s talk of Zal Khalilzad leaving his post, and while the worst days of the ‘Emerald City’ have gone, there’s still a sense that this huge new mission doesn’t quite have the purpose to match its stature.
And given the size of the mission, what would it take to protect or evacuate it should the situation go downhill fast?
Hugh at 49 — thanks much. If you have a link on that, I’ll post an update above.
Peterr @ 27
I continue to believe that the road to peace in the Middle East goes through Jerusalem and that we need to be involved in that process.
We also need to stop demonizing other Middle Eastern leaders, make them investors in a solution or at least in a process that moves the battle from the streets to conference tables. We used our credibility and our leadership capacity coming out of the first gulf war to bring every body to Madrid. That required Presidential leadership and Secstate elbow grease. It was a good model even if we are sorely lacking in the credibility and leadership areas right now.
Twobits @ 43
There are already the beginnings of proxy wars with the external support of the various insurgencies. Right now I think the battles are on behalf of tribal constituencies and for their respective political powers. At some point they may shift to the picking over of the carcass that once was Iraq, but not yet.
I also wonder if we can have real diplomatic progress as long as Condi Rice is Secretary of State. Does she have any credibility at all with any key leaders she must influence? (And let me be clear, I’m not suggesting that it is her sex that undermines her credibility.)
I believe everything you said in your 52, sir!
you hit the nail on the head, imho!
Man, was working and did whatever was neccessary to have the pleasure and priviledge to become part of a discussion with the ambassador….hope I’m not to late to this party
first question is a little off topic but important in this discussion;
1) all things being equall, with no further revelations making themself known, do you think Robert Gates should be confirned?
question two is off topic but I’m dying to know;
2) does Mrs. Wilson read and post here at teh lake of fire and dogs?
Ambassador Wilson,
It is an honor to have you here.
This may seem like a very stupid question, but if anyone would know the answer, it would be you. If we are stuck with things the way they are in Iraq for the remainder of the Bush administration, whom, in your opinion, is most equipped to clean up the mess when we manage to elect someone that could?
Also, is there anything any of us can do to aid you and your family besides giving to the legal fund?
Happy Holidays to you and your family.
-S
Joe Wilson @ 38
FWIW, I was saying something very similar this morning.
In order to come up with the best policy, we need to make the conversation about the best policy instead of whether Dubya will find some new Band-Aid to cover his ass.
That means specific, honest answers about the situation on the ground, and the limits of what our troops can do given that situation.
Good afternoon, Ambassador and thank you for lending your time so generously.
What impact do you think the Hadley memo has on “incentivizing” the Iraqi government to shore up its army so that we can “stand down”? It seems to me that at the press conference in Amman, al-Maliki was merely summoning up what some of us impolitely refer to as an “F.U.” (Friedman Unit), a six-month time period which the talking heads like to fall back on when they don’t know how much time extrication will really take.
Hi Ambassador Wilson,
I’d appreciate your comments on Jimmy Carter’s new book.
Mr. Ambassador, welcome.
With the Hezbollah, prodded along by Syria, clamoring to bring down the government in Lebanon, and with the Shites in Syria tied to their brethren in Iraq, do you see the problem in Iraq expanding into a regional conflict, especially given the ongoing situation between the Israelis and the Palestinians?
Ambassador Wilson – I really appreciate your comments about shifting how we speak about Iraq to a task – force ratio. That puts the onus on the adminstration and SecDef to actually identify and quantify what they are doing. I wonder if we can pressure the democratic leadership to push for precisely this sort of assessment?
;(
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 45
Katulis is a solid observer of the Iraq situation and I agree with his assessment though I think there are a number of conflitual subdivisions within his divisions. The role of Iran in the region going forward is what should be of primordial concern. With the rise of the Shia in Iraq, Shia aspirations will be fueled throughout the gulf where there are significant populations and you can assume the Iranians will be supportive. We actually do have strategic interests in the region and a withdrawal may threaten those interests.
Thanks for coming to visit us, Ambassador Wilson. You are a great American.
I have been reading that the Bush Administration’s intent was never to do the myriad of lofty things it proposed to do, but in fact to make the country unlivable in order to assume military control over oilfields. The occupation of a hostile populace was never intended.
The fact that this occupation has proven to be deadly to 3000 Americans and ultimately threated American hegemony in the region were unforeseen negative consequences of the larger strategy. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld intended to salt Carthage.
The chaos and carnage are what they wanted all along. The hundreds of thiousands of dead Iraqis, the flight of the middle class and professionals, the 3,000 emigrants per month, the end of civility. The US didn’t drop the ball, it smashed the china.
Does this dark, satanic explanation hold up?
Ambassador, it is truly an honor.
On the Sunday talk shows, Stephen Hadley made a big deal out of insisting that the violence in Iraq was al-Qaeda’s fault. Tim Russert told him that only a small percentage of fighters in Iraq are foreign, and Hadley said that al-Qaeda was a small percentage but was attacking the Shi’ites, causing them to attack the Sunnis in reprisal. I’m sure this is true to some extent, but how much is al-Qaeda REALLY fomenting the violence and how much is the fighting stemming from other conflicts – and could you give an example of such conflicts?
I know it’s really Iraq 101 stuff, but it’s unbelievable the number of people that insist we are fighting al-Qaeda in Iraq.
Thank you, sir!
Wigwam @ 60
Same, please. It seems both cogent and inflammatory. The old man still seems to have a spark; is he on the mark?
The ISG site is here:
http://www.usip.org/isg/
The news release giving the December 6, 2006 release date is here:
http://www.usip.org/isg/news_r…..rence.html
Ambassador Wilson –
What are your thoughts on the recent “dust-up” between Bush and Senator-elect Webb and how it relates to Bush’s failure in Iraq?
Joe, you mention Ryan Crocker. I understand he was the lead in the State Department in drawing up the detailed occupation plans that Rummy essentially scrapped and started over (with Feith drawing up the mess of a non-plan with which we are currently stuck). I also hear that Crocker is quite good — but he will be starting from way behind in this instance. What will he be able to do in a position as Ambassador — especially with the Bush Administration’s backing and their decided loss of stature in the region and in Iraq itself? Are they setting him up to fail — or do you think they will allow him to actually DO his job, if he is appointed?
johnSwifty @ 47
I have no idea if it dawned on Cheney that I was the Joe Wilson who was in Iraq in the first gulf war. He is a busy man and there are a lot of Joe Wilsons. What they did to Valerie was unconscionable and really stupid. They took a four day story — their lie in the State of the Union — and turned it into a four year nightmare for every body concerned.
1,350 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Joe Wilson:
Thank you for your distinguished service to our country. I’m sure that, ideologically, you and I don’t match up well but havin’ said that, I really respect your knowledge and understanding of the Byzantine world of America’s foreign service and intelligence bureaucracy. So here’s my question…how long and what will it take to clean up the individual intelligence services and fumigate the state Department of the undemocratic elements? Can it be done without takin’ down the whole unwieldy process and structure established under the Homeland Security Department?
I am truly afraid that the damage done to our secret and publicly unaccountable institutions, particularly the intelligence bureaucracy, over the last six years make it highly likely that the contaminants left over from this fascist regime could very well undermine future democratically elected governments.
KEEP THE FAITH JOE, AND PASS THE DAMNED AMMUNITION, WE HAVEN’T GOT RID OF ‘EM YET!!
Ambassador Wilson, I had the great pleasure of hearing you speak at a local (San Fernando Valley) Democratic function a couple of years ago. As impressive as I found you on television, I found you more so in person. It’s disheartening that not so long ago we could take it largely as a given that our government was made up of people with your common sense, intelligence, and integrity. Maybe there will come a time when we can do so again.
I don’t have a question. I merely wished to express my appreciation for all you have done for our country, both inside government, and outside of it.
pseudonymous in nc @ 50
The Washington Post got a hold of a cable sent from the US Embassy to the State Dept. last June that may answer some of your questions. PDF file-small, 6 pages. Quite depressing.
Thank you Ambassador Wilson for your time, service and dedication. It’s great to have you here. I believe it’s a matter of fate that our world has been given the opportunity, now, to communicate across the political power chain, in such a crucial period of history. I’m sincerely honored as an average ordinary person to have this chance.
I can speak only for myself but others might have had the same experience of not being involved/interested in politics until I(we) felt our future was seriously threatened. As we’ve researched, learned and shared information, it’s become clear that some unsavory schemes of the past have never been stopped. We find so many versions of history that the truth seems to be lost forever.
As we ‘everyday people’ seek the truth to prevent past mistakes from reliving, are we doing more harm than good by exposing the long covered past to more people? Is it futile to strive for honest discussions of past controversies when it seems obvious that elected leaders of both parties stick to the more “official” versions of the events? I’ve come to believe that the mark of effective government is the lack of interest in it by average citizens. Many of us didn’t realize how terrible it’s been for so long and now that we know, can the alternative truths of the past be more than useless knowledge?
watertiger @ 59
I think Maliki is woefully weak. The history of Iraq has always been in the absence of strong central power, it tends to spin out of control. Maliki does not have the power he needs to successfully govern. Too many factions, too much dispersal of authority, too many militias and competing political goals.
Ambassador Wilson: An honor. Two things.
1. At the rate things are going, what is your opinion on the likelihood that at some point the US troops in Iraq will have to fight their way out to a “friendly” country? My opinion on this is it’s more likely than not, particularly given Bush’s pronouncement last week of no “graceful exit”….
2. At 38, you note:
It turned out, they weren’t guarding a bridge (though that might have been their job – they weren’t doing it). The one soldier who was captured, killed and booby-trapped had been (by all appearances specifically) targeted for revenge by the family of the 14 year-old girl. She had been raped, killed and her body set afire by a group of soldiers now on trial for rape and murder (at least one or two have already pleaded) – the dead soldier was a part of that group.
Why do you think that diplomacy is so seemingly repugnant to this administration? I personally cannot remember a time when so little good has been done. NOTHING on the so-called “roadmap” for these 6 years. 9/11 (awful as it was) presented an opportunity to us and that has been squandered in vast amounts of blood and treasure.
Do you have any thoughts on that other seemingly “forgotten war” that is Afghanistan?
And did you support the US decision not to call for a cease fire in Lebanon?
It will take generations to undo the damage that NeoCon policy has done to the Middle East, but it may take even longer to undo the damage that they’ve done to the English language.
“Incentivizing”?!
We also need to stop demonizing other Middle Eastern leaders, make them investors in a solution or at least in a process that moves the battle from the streets to conference tables.
That statement really resonates with me. It reminds me of the tenet that a ‘bad’ leader who can maintain the peace is better than a ‘good’ leader who cannot. I also see this as the way for Al Qaeda to be contained, not by the US, but by Muslims from within. Al Qaeda appears to be dependent on anarchy to exist in new places and is perhaps even more so dependent on the divisive presence of US military to avoid being ousted by indigenous tribal forces.
My question to you, Joe, is do you see redeployment of US forces out of Iraq as having a negative effect on the long term establishment of AQ in Iraq (even in a failed state scenario) despite a likely escalation in chaos for Iraqis themselves?
Alison @ 65
After 911 the headline in the French newspaper read “We are all Americans now”. After three years of shock and awe in Iraq we should not be surprised if the Iraqis are saying “We are all Al Qaeda now.” That said, I suspect that whatever foreign fighters are in Iraq now are operating with the support of tribes and clans waging the civil war and insurgencies and would be brought under their control when it suited their purposes. As a foreigner you would need some domestic support to sustain operations.
Ambassador Wilson
Do you think it’s too late for a federalization of Iraq into small provinces or cantons (not along ethnic lines–as little along ethnic lines as possible) with oil revenues distributed according to population? I know it’s an imperfect solution, but to me it seems like the least bad solution
TRex @ 79
Don’t get my mother started on that, T-Rex. She was an English teacher. ;-)
Ambassador Wilson,
Thanks so much for your time here at the lake -
am I safe in assuming you read this WaPo piece last week by Nawaf Obaid ?
do you agree with his conclusions for the region ?
Gilliard (who hasn’t been wrong about much) says the Saudis wont come if called as they don’t ‘trust’ their own military
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01277.html
in diplomatic terms; jeebus !
note to Firedogs – even if this is just House of Saud spin, I urge you all to read it when you can
Joe Wilson @ 76
I commented, satirically, in SteveG’s post last night that it appears what the region needs is a local strongman who is more despotic than religious in order to hold the exterior forces at bay.
All in all, as a sorry layman to the matter, I am forced to simply shake my head and say, “What a God Damn awful shame!”
This great country deserves so much more from its leaders…so very much more.
Are you done sir? Are you done with public service, (other than what you offer us here now)?
Joe Wilson @ 76
Given the (literally) entrenched nature of all those factions and militias, is there even a hypothetical political solution… i.e., one that doesn’t make one or more groups think, “Ehh, we’re better off fighting for a bigger share of the spoils”?
(I took a broad-brush look at this a year and a half ago and came up with an answer of no.)
After 911 the headline in the French newspaper read “We are all Americans now”
along those lines: Does anyone in this administration remember the spontaneous candle light vigil in Tehran on September 12, 2001?
Margot @ 40
My question relates to an interview with Robert Fisk:
“The real question I ask myself is: who are these people who are trying to provoke the civil war?”
http://www.informationclearing…..e12137.htm
Does a civil war in Iraq need provoking? Or does it do that on its own? This statement by Fisk surprised me.
I haven’t seen the interview but Fisk is very knowledgeable. There are no doubt efforts to provoke even greater violence. Ask who benefits from the utter collapse of Iraq as a nation state and work back from there.
Americans of all stripes feel badly about the carnage we’ve brought to the Middle East. One common denominator is energy and not just oil.
Iran is the undeclared winner in this scenario since it has no shortage of resources and labor.
With political comity based on mutual self-interest, could Arabs, Persians, Kurds, and Jews all find some semblance of hospitality and co-existence if the West’s lust for energy / security were somehow diminished?
Is it too radical to suppose that the problems facing us can be addressed by reducing our own demand for what isn’t really ours anyway?
Perhaps the profligate lifestyles to which we’ve become accustomed is really what needs to change (before life crashes on our planet).
And what about Rummy’s “Dayton” last gasp? It seems that the Mosul/Baghdad/Basra model is somewhat more stable with regards to lineage.
I was chilled to the bone when I read that Bushco was not sending in enough troops to Iraq. When the troops start to leave how can they do it was any safety? Are they sitting ducks?
Having a limited understanding of how backroom negotiating works, I’m curious as to how much of Bush’s “We won’t leave until the mission is accomplished” talk is simply bravado? I’m assuming someone showed him the Rumsfeld memo stating that this strategy ain’t working.
thank you amb. wilson for being the stand-up man you are. recent events have proven you to be correct in your analysis of the iraqi bullshit pardon my language. even lameduck rummy finally admitted things aren’t going well in iraq – a big DUHHHH!!!
johnSwifty @ 85
I thought Steve G’s post last night was really first rate. One of my concerns is that we will have to fight our way out and that it will not be pretty.
As to public service. Been there, done that. I look forward to the days when I can devote myself to helping Valerie raise our kids to be good citizens of a country I love deeply. The constitution is a revered governing document and we need to keep forcing governments to adhere to it. I hope I don’t have to be on point for too many more of these battles, but in the end, the price we have paid is nothing compared to what the soldiers and their families have sacrificed.
Swopa @ 86
That is why we need their foreign backers as part of a political solution. If they are not engaged, they will remain active in other spheres, ie. military, political and financial support.
Thank you for talking to us, Mr. Ambassador.
There have been several stories discussing possible political/military “coups,” which appear to be varying options for replacing PM al-Maliki with someone else, such as a “strongman” supported by some coaltion. It’s unclear whether the Bush Administration is encouraging this, allowing it, or fearing it. Do you have a view on what is happening about these scenarios and how any of them might affect conditions there?
Ambassador Wilson, thank you for coming here.
A few things:
1) Would you give us your thoughts on this LAT article about how our remaining Mideast allies are starting to panic?
2) Ha’aretz says that Israel’s Olmert and the IDF are readying for another war against Lebanon/Syria. If this occurs, what happens to any US efforts to get Syrian aid should our troops need quick access to a land route out of Iraq?
3) How does it feel to be married to the most beautiful, intelligent, honorable, and accomplished lady in the world? You must count your blessings every time you see her.
Thank you again!
Thank you Ambasssador Wilson for being here and sharing your insight and knowledge with us.
Given the difficulty of a diplomatic solution between countries when war profiteers are not involved, with the level of profits that this war is generating for some, and their influence on the goverment, will it be necessary to bring these corporations to the table to reach solution?
I was appaled to the level of profit involved in all of this when I screened Iraq for Sale.
neokneme @ 89
We should have embarked on a Manhattan style project on 912 to wean ourselves from foreign energy dependence. Instead the President urged us to go shopping. But it is not too late. There is still in our system a lot of ingenuity. It will take a Teddy Roosevelt to ensure that that ingenuity is not strangled at birth by entrenched interests.
Rummy’s Dayton comment is tied to the talk of international conferences. I think that we owe it to the world to pursue a political solution and any solution by definition means talking among belligerents.
Joe Wilson @ 93
Greetings Ambassador,
I’d like to ask a question from a slightly different perspective: the Bush Administration has consistently raised the standard of “Mind-bogglingly stupid decisions to make.” In all fields of government.
Given that reasonable minds have presented a general outline of necessary actions to salvage Iraq (or at least actions that acknowledge the situation and seek to salvage our people), when confronted with those options, what might the Bush Administration do that is even more mind-bogglingly stupid than their previous actions?
Taking Bush’s inflexibility and wrong-headedness to a pathological degree, what is the most catastrophic change in course he could make?
Do you have a crystal ball point of view wrt GW Bush’ final days as President?
( I have my own Machavellian scenario).
Ambassador Wilson, thanks for this opportunity to discuss the Middle East regional war with us. Could you also, given your understanding of this Administration, its factions, and factional leaders, define for us who has the President’s ear, who seems to be losing it, and who may be ascendant? I note, for instance, that George Schultz, the mentor of the current SecState, elected not to comment on Gates for the WaPo today. Can we expect the infighting between Rice and Cheney (and their adherents) to be ratcheted upwards by the addition of a new player, Gates, should he be confirmed?
Finally, what role do you believe former President Bush is currently playing?
Thank you for your and your family’s service to our nation and for your courage in the face of adversity. Americans will, in a time long in the future, know the names of Joe and Valerie Wilson as patriots in a dark time in the history of our Republic. Best for Festivus!
Joe Wilson @ 93
Amen, sir.
If anyone has earned a break from the conflicts, it is you. But you will leave a vacuum; again, not many have shown the honor. And these are times which demand people of honor to step to the fore. However — and I do not wish to throw a mantle of expectation upon you — I am afraid you will be given an opportunity to display your honor again in your upcoming legal battles. Of course, in that regard, you will have a staunch ally in your wife and it seems to me your flank is very well guarded.
God bless!
Damn shame that our government’s definition of pursuing diplomacy is talking belligerently. I think that the next nomination for UN rep is going to tell a tale.
I feel that we citizens should have a pretty wretched conscience on account of Afghanistan and how the debacle in Iraq has affected our ability to deal with what’s going on there, with the reported resurgance of the Taliban and all. I was never for invading Afghanistan in the first place. But a vengeful Taliban seems twice as bad. Especially since I somehow feel the Taliban are especially creepy Khmer Rouge like barbarians.
watertiger @ 91
I think the administration is in a tough spot right now, with no good options, and a president who still seems to believe that he can pull this off. I take no satisfaction in watching this unfold, and I regret profoundly the carnage inflicted on Iraq and on our troops. The neocons should be rooted out of adult foreign policy discussions and marginalized on the fringes where they belong. Their infiltration of the oped pages (Krauthammer, Boot, Frum, Gigot, TNR) and of policy circles has been disastrous. I wrote in my book that they are like a parasite loyal only unto themselves that found the republican party a willing host and now have fully infected it.
Thank you for answering, ambassador.
Given your role and Cheney’s role during Bush 41, and given that Cheney is sharp (twisted, but sharp), it seems he’d have to know.
But I defer to your insight.
Good luck in your depositions, sir – you’re doing America’s work.
Joe Wilson @ 98
When you and Valerie bankrupt Rove And Cheney via the civil lawsuit, could I purchase Dick’s famous shotgun from you??
al- Hakim just said that Iraqi problems will be solved by Iraqis with help from their friends.
(I reckon he is right about that and the preznit appeared bemused and red-faced and sweaty.)
Sir,
If the worst happens and the United States suffers strategic defeat in Iraq, would it not still be possible for us to maintain the bases we currently possess in the Gulf States to deter the more serious attempts against our national interest? Or will American credibility have fallen too low to save anything?
Thank you and your wife once more the service you have given and continue to give to our nation.
perris @ 99
mod note from Siun – editing out comment related to incoming spam
thanks Siun.
nition means talking among belligerents.
Joe Wilson @ 107
The degree of this tragedy is staggering. I thank you for doing all that you can to ameliorate it.
i’ve no questions, ambassador. i just want to thank you for your numerous contributions to our country’s foreign service.
i don’t know if you’d be interested or not but i can see you as secretary of state or ambassador to the UN should power pass to an administration you would be pleased to work for.
Moderators, we have incoming @ 114.
[Mod Note; refresh your screen and it should be gone.]
Ambassador Wilson,
Thanks for your service and thanks for stopping by FDL.
Just how much chaos would be caused by a US or Israeli strike against Iran?
Do you see that there is any possibility of such an act taking place?
-GSD
GREAT CATCH at 12:12, watertiger!
drinksforall @ 110
No fair, Drinks! I thought I had dibs! ;-)
That reminds me: It looks very much like Fitzy was playing Rove and Cheney off of each other, and Rove got the better end of the deal, simply because he had more to offer: Rove could offer up Cheney’s scalp, or at least those of Cheney’s staffers, and Cheney had nothing comparable to offer Fitz in return to keep Fitz away from him — not unless he wanted to try to dump everything on Bush, and Cheney doesn’t have the stones or the wit to try to pull that off.
A very deeply felt Thank You to both you & your wife for your efforts on our behalf.
Now I will go back up top & read the thread.
Best to you both.
“The bond of our common humanity is stronger than the divisiveness of our fears and prejudices.” – James Carter
johnSwifty @ 104
Ambassador Wilson,
It is always an honor and privilege to have you come by the lake. We here have been cheering you and your lovely wife on for quite a while now and will continue to do so and help in any way we can.
My question to you is this. Can you envision any kind of face-saving strategy that the current administration could employ to slide us out of this horrid mess they got us into? I doubt they would submit to anything that look defeatist, but is the situation so far gone that there is no sane way out?
Also, we are well aware of the 140-150,000 troops currently in Iraq that would be so hard to “redeploy” (I hate that word, too Orwellian) but what would be their role in extracting the tens of thousands of contractors that are also working there?
Again, thank you for the loyal service you and your wife have given to this country.
I feel better knowing you are involved with that @
122!
Our Constitution is worth restoring in full.
Well, that’ll keep ya plenty busy for the next few years.
Knut Wicksell @ 112
I fear that restive populations in other gulf countries might well make it increasingly difficult for their governments to be as friendly to us as we would like. I wrote an article for the Nation in February, 2003 outlining my concerns in that regard. They remain the same.
Joe Wilson @ 113
there’s the rub Ambassador, the president has ignored the sage military advice from his own military council, the heads of the armed forces and the generals in the field
it is likely he would ignore the advice again…let’s all pray he prepares for the worst of it only to be surprised he was too cautious
I have to say I am very impressed with the level of knowledgeability of both the comments and the questions. Good day to be here.
THANKS SIUN
GSD @ 118
It is still a distinct possibility that we will strike Iran’s nuke facilities.
WE might gain a decade in the Iranian quest for a nuke but we will pay for it in an century of enmity.
Joe Wilson @ 130
Even worse. Iran actually seems to have friends in E. Asia.
RevDeb @ 123
Thank you.
Focus American troop efforts on non lethal activities like training and logisitical support of Iraqis taking over their own security support and do everything possible to create conditions for a political process bringing together insurgents and their foreign backers. AND reengage in a meaningful way in the Mideast peace process.
Jane Hamsher @
128
And thanks to our hostesses and the moderators for making today’s conversation possible!
Jane Hamsher @ 128
I agree with Jane’s assessment of the calber of understanding on the part of all of you. I just wish I knew more and could type faster.
Mr. Wilson -
I’ve been accused of being too cynical on this board, so with that caveat…
Why do you believe that at this point in time diplomacy can overcome the assumed self interest of any who are allegedly necessary to bringing peace and stability to the region?
Isn’t it just as plausible that the nations that could allegedly broker peace/stability and on which such peace/stability would depend, think they gain more from instability/the occassional bloodshed large and/or small in the region, than they believe they would from peace/stability for their own leaders’/nation’s perceived self interest?
Shorter me: Maybe the middle east is fucked up (which was true before Iraq) b/c the powers that be (and this goes beyond Chimpco) want it, really need it, to be that way, and that isn’t going to change any time soon.
Teddy at 133 — it is as much fun for us as it is for you all, trust me.
Joe Wilson @ 122
Joe Wilson @ 134
have you formed an opinion on robert gates yet?
Thank you for joining us today, Ambassador Wilson. It is greatly appreciated.
I understood that you were interviewed by the ISG (please correct me if this is wrong). What, if anything, can you share with us about the ISG?
And do you feel that the ISG will offer a cogent path on Iraq, or is there another outlet that appears to be better prepared to do so?
EPU at 135 — at this stage in our nation, I am not certain that it is possible to be TOO cynical. Sad to say, but true.
Ambassador Wilson, it’s an honor, sir,
I don’t know how much time is left, but thought I’d add this question to the pile: (if for ongoing-litigation reasons you find answering would be unwise at this time, I completely understand)
The Nigeria “Yellowcake” claim, which you had correctly concluded as ridiculous, focused on a forged document. This was received by the MSM, but was packaged in a more conciliatory tone as being simply “bad intel”; a not exactly sanitary term, but served to categorize it more easily during prewar debates. But as you know, forged intel is substantially more serious, with far more nefarious implications.
The source of that forgery has been ferociously nagging at me ever since. Obviously it was generated by someone advocating the invasion, but nothing more specific than that. There doesn’t appear to have been any follow-up investigation that I’m aware of.
Was there anything determined about that document later that may have illuminated its source more specifically?
Thanks very much for taking the time.
Ambassador Wilson, can you foresee the possibility of any kind of a “soft landing” for this misadventure, overall? There seem to be so many dead-ends in the solutions being offered up. I wonder that US influence in the world will be vastly reduced when our creditors pull up short, bringing us to heel.
Seems to me that the Project for the New American Century has bequeathed us anything but.
Joe Wilson @
122
You’re not alone in that calling. As a member of the clergy myself, I am appalled at what is labeled “Christian” by the theocons, or by the media watching the theocons and saying “that’s what it means to be Christian.”
I would imagine my feelings are akin to yours as you watch Bush strut around in international gatherings, and hear him described as an American diplomat.
Good luck to you and the advisory committee on which you are serving. (Might be a good topic for discussion around here, down the road . . .)
Echoing Hackworth @ 138 – where do you start with the neo/theocons? Reinstate the Fairness Doctrine so that the message can somehow be blunted?
Seems like a very daunting task.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 140
I have been a cynic since the supreme court selected goerge bush
and now that we managed to overcome the electronic voting deluge, I am for now and until proven wrong, an optimist once again
One more question Ambassador.
Is there a possibility with the investigations about to be undertaken by the Democratic Congress, that some useable information regarding you and your wifes lawsuit come forward?
Some thing to forward your cause?
Jane Hamsher @ 128
It’s all you Jane (well, the Ambassador does seem to be helping out a bit :)
Evil Parallel Universe @ 135
It is hard to be too cynical when looking at the situation in the Middle East. Nations act in their own self interest, sometimes enlightened, sometimes not. The Arab Israeli imbroglio has enabled Arab governments for a generation to avoid their responsibilities towards their citizens. Hence, let’s try to get that one off the table.
As to chaos in Iraq, part of the reason for engaging others is to ascertaion whehter there really is widespread neighborhood support for instability on their borders. Most responsible nations care about security on their borders.
Didn’t the Saudis tell Cheney they were going to intervene more directly to defend the Sunnis, or was that just a threat? In any case, what do you make of a possible Saudi intervention?
Mr Wilson is a later day HERO!
The longer we put off getting out of Iraq, THE HIGHER THE FINAL PRICE WILL BE, and the progression is no longer linear: it has become geometric in rate of rise!
Joe Wilson @ 64
If I can take the liberty of amplifying what Joe means here, especially in combination with his comments @ 113 about our supply lines and the various references to Steve G.’s post last night… here’s a passage from the Los Angeles Times story cited earlier:
The threat of direct intervention may be bluster, but the broader point is that the U.S. has overseen the transfer of Iraq’s government to an Iran-friendly Shiite coalition, and the Saudis are saying it would be unacceptable for us to leave things that way.
However, the Shiites could cut off our supply line from Kuwait very easily if we tried to depose their government (which is why we haven’t tried, and in fact is why we let them take power to begin with, by yielding to Sistani’s demand for elections).
So the Saudis (and the Sunnis they back in Iraq) say X is unacceptable, and the Shiites (backed by Iran) say that anything besides X is unacceptable. Good luck finding a solution to that problem.
perris @ 138
Ambassador Wilson, if you could whisper advice to President Bush, what would it be?
I met you when you spoke at Xavier University in OH. Valerie’s cousin was there, expecting a baby. A girl or a boy?
Jim @ 149
I think the Saudis will eventually have to support their Sunni cousins, just as the Turks will be tempted to support the Turkomen against the Kurds and the Iranians the shia. etc. etc. That is why it makes sense to sort this out politically if possible.
karen allen @ 154
Girl. And doing well. Thanks for asking
What happens when US forces on their third and fourth tour start losing their combat effectiveness, as what happened in Vietnam.
Everyone is assuming that the US Army will complete their missions without combat refusals or other indisciplines.
What happens when the Army ceases to work?
too effin’ bad.
the linked image represents over 1000 electrical contractors alone still scattered about in country
then there’s the 2500 Non Combat DoD employees still there
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/feb06/2831/iraqf1
and what about all those Aegis and Haliiburton employees (depending on your source, upwards as many as 20,000) scattered everywhere
shorter me, their own incompetence at letting everyone run loosey-goosey anywhere they wanted in the ‘greeted as liberators‘ stage, pre empts them from levelling anything other than the embassy roof from the weight of the helos
Joe Wilson @ 155
cut and saved to use at future discussion
insight I hadn’t considered and I thank you
mui and everyone – there’s a very interesting article in the Globe and Mail about how the Dutch troops in Afghanistan operate. It’s quite informative about how things can be done well (though I have aprehensions about any invasion of another country)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com…..ghanistan/
Doing it the Dutch way in Afghanistan
GRAEME SMITH
From Saturday’s Globe and Mail
>
TIRIN KOT, AFGHANISTAN At the age of 23,Nisar Ahmad has seen a lot of fighting. His gang of Barakzai tribesmen was the first militia to reach Kandahar behind a wave of U.S. bombs in 2001, grabbing power in the city as the Taliban fled. The same Barakzai warriors chased the Taliban north into the mountains of Uruzgan province, and spent the past five years hunting around these craggy peaks and rolling valleys alongside U.S. special forces.
Four months ago, the hunt ended. The Dutch military took command of Uruzgan, and immediately told Mr. Ahmad’s men to stop their raids and ambushes. His militia of 250 battle-hardened fighters was given a new assignment: guard duty.
On a recent afternoon, Mr. Ahmad watched his men play soccer in the confines of a Dutch military base known as Kamp Holland, and he seemed pleased with his new, quiet life.
In the last four months, this province is safer, he said. I’ll tell you why. When you treat people badly, it comes back at you. When you treat people well, he said, gesturing at the quiet provincial capital of Tirin Kot, slumbering in the valley below the Dutch base, this is the result.
(snip)
Joe Wilson @ 122
This is a huge job. I fear it will take many years to completely remove the neocons and theocons from our government. Their agendas have nothing to do with American democracy. Even after the Bush administration is gone those people will be capable of doing great damage if left in place. A thorough house cleaning is in order.
Amb. Wilson, Q: I don’t think Bush will do anything before ‘08 to pacify Iraq when the U.S. oil companys and the Saudis are making so much money with Iraqs oil off the market. I call it my “Goldfinger” theory. By making Iraqs oils so toxic to tap into, the people with the unfettered oil reserves, will make billions more.
Any reason why this is never, ever talked about?
Thanks for everything. I bought 3 of your books when it came out.
Diane @ 153
Give yourself some time by getting Americans out of harm’s way as much as possible by rethinking what we are asking them to do at this stage of the occupation. Stop killing Iraqis unnecessarily. Listen to the generals when they tell you that there needs to be a political solution and use your position to bring the belligerents and their foreign backers into a political process, and engage seriously in the mideast peace process. Remember Richard Cohen’s immortal words about the US position vis a vis the Israeli government “Friends don’t let friends drive drunk.” Finally, listen to Jim Baker. You may not like him but he knows his way around the issue.
Ambassador Wilson,
everyone here would have loved, loved, loved some input from Valerie over this week-end’s discussion of The Polonium 210 “mystery” – anything you can share with us on that front ?
Steve Gilliard, thanks so much for joining. I hope you saw Ambassador Wilson’s comment about you at 11:55:
TheOtherWA @ 161
This is a huge job. I fear it will take many years to completely remove the neocons and theocons from our government. Their agendas have nothing to do with American democracy. Even after the Bush administration is gone those people will be capable of doing great damage if left in place. A thorough house cleaning is in order.
Amen. I’m happy to know that an organization like that exists; the cross-polinisation of the USAFA and the Dobsonites is scary.
First of all, Ambassador Wilson, thanks for being here. Earlier you wrote:
Joe Wilson @ 132
How can this be done without talking to the people we’ve sworn not to talk to? Or, to ask the question in a somewhat less sarcastic way, is the President’s refusal to talk to these folks likely to be an obstacle for us as mediators?
*Sigh*
Afghani villagers understand basic management techniques better than the Bush Administration.
squiddy @ 141
One of the reasons that there is a large analytical component to the intelligence community is to separate out fact from fiction in the thousands of bits of information that comes over the transom every day. It is not surprising that there are those who would hoodwink America, just surprising that our leaders would be so easily hoodwinked.
Ambassador Wilson,
A question from a British poster. With hindsight do you think it would of been impossible for Bush to push for an invasion of Iraq if Blair had grown of pair of steel bollocks and said NO, instead of just playing the poodle how-high-shall-I-jump role?
Does Blair still have anything to offer to help solve this mess?
Joe Wilson @ 148
That is crucial point to the matter, isn’t it? I’ve read in your own work and many other knowledgeable sources how Arab nations are able to allow themselves to live with populace in grievous social circumstances by merely pointing to the infidels in the West as the root of all evil.
To remove that scapegoat, seems to allow civil activists within those Arab nations to address their governments directly. At least it is a place for civil disobedience in a true Walden fashion to start where, presently, there is very little. (Walden pond on the desert, that’s funny)
steve gilliard @ 158
Steve, did you catch Dan Zwerdling’s story on NPR this a.m. about soldiers using PTSD as a “backdoor” out of service?
watertiger @ 168
Sadly, this is no surprise to me or probably anyone at the Lake.
Words fail.
My last two answers have not come up on the screen. Is there a problem with the site?
What is your feeling about what I see as the rampant demonization of Muslims by many in the media and the WH coined term “islamofascism”?
Thanks Siun at 160.
watertiger @ 168
Those Dutch soldiers have parents and grandparents who lived under the Nazis, and have some sensitivity to being occupiers based on those experiences. I’m Dutch
Joe Wilson @ 174
Oh no! You may be stuck in moderation.
Joe Wilson @ 174
Have you tried reloading the page?
Amb. Wilson had a bit of a hiccup with his computer, but I think we may have resolved the problem. Give him a couple of minutes and he should be back with us. Thanks so much for your patience. :)
Stuart @ 170
Blair is one of the great disappointments. He could have stopped it if he had done better analysis but I think he became a believer. He thought he was going to go down as Churdhill in the history of his country but I doubt that is going to happen now.
Joe Wilson @ 174
There’s an automated moderation feature here. Any “key words” that read like spam, trolling, or other things are put into a queue for the moderators to evaluate. Hopefully, they will do that and tell us to reload the page so we can see your answers.
angie @ 175
Huge mistake. In fact it is disgusting. Idiots on all sides using religion to cover political goals.
Gang — to be clear, it was not a moderation issue. It was a computer glitch, and it’s resolved. Thanks.
Joe Wilson @ 169
respectfully, they weren’t hoodwinked, they knew with no doubt there was no threat from saddam or Iraq, their own advisors informed them in no uncertain terms engaging Iraq would exacerbate the effort against terrorism
this was a kaba and a PNAC design course of action visited on America with deliberate deciept
Cujo359 @ 167
Great countries can talk to their adversaries. We do so not to reward them but because it is in our interest to do so. This administration has forgotten that. But then again if the hammer is the only tool you are willing to use then every problem looks like a nail.
Thank You so much for being here with us today again Ambassador Wilson, it is always such a pleasure to have such an experienced wise voice that you provide us. Wishing you and your beautiful family a good holiday season and an even better New Year for us All.
watertiger @ 172
I’ve been told that some units are prepping for their fifth tour of Iraq or Afghanistan. I don’t know when war-weariness starts to set in for either the people in those units or their machines, but given how poorly both are being maintained they may have reached that point already.
I can’t stand it, I have to ask.
Who would you like to see run for President in 2008?
perris @ 184
I don’t disagree with that assessment. In fact, if I recall, I may have been the first to suggest in my NYT article that I had concluded that the intelligence had been twisted to conform to political decisions already made.
Bustednuckles(Phil) @ 188
On the issues that are key to me (foreign policy, intelligence, military) there is nobody better than Chuck Hagel. Too bad he is a republican
As to Dems, the only one I would not lift a finger for is Evan Bayh. When asked about our case in an interview with Salon, Bayh said he was agnostic about the Wilsons. Enough said.
Ambassador Joe,
Glad you’re still here (was on conf call from 11PST til now). Question:
Baker seems to be driving to neutralize Cheney via the ISG, and there are a number of authoritative leaks that have seemed to be his handiwork. I am a Baker admirer and in real life I negotiate with nasty delusional cos. like Microsoft, Apple, Google, AT&T, etc. So yes, I’m projecting biases. But do you think JBIII had anything to do with getting rid of Rumsfeld? I’m asking for speculation, not definition.
This may be a bit tangential, but David Hare’s play, “Stuff Happens”, provided me with more insight into Blair’s motivations than any article I’d read to date. Hare presented Blair as the British version of Bush, condescending to the “brown” people who apparently needed saving. Bush bullied him, no doubt, but Blair had one eye firmly fixed on his legacy.
perris @ 184
When the day finally arrives that Mr. Waxman can prove this to any ney sayers, beyond a shadow of a doubt — on that very day — America will be much closer to healing from the wounds the Bush Administration has inflicted!
It is so good to hear someone who “knows” say this. Thank you sir!
Joe Wilson @ 190
surprised gore/feingold aren’t high on your list, or are they?
I’ve heard Blair is being groomed for the Carlyle Group. Sickening, ain’t it?
MarcLord @ 191
I think the elections had more to do with Rummy’s departure than anything else. That may help with the acceptance of the ISG report but remember it is the White House that has the final say, not SecDef.
That tears it!
no Evan Blergh/Blah/Bayh.
(I didn’t want him anyway)
no national security cred– none.
perris @ 194
Gore, who I have known for 20 years is. but I don’t think he is going to run. I like Feingold a lot but he isn’t running either.
Angie et al – I found the Globe and Mail article incredibly sad since it points up how far our behavior has been from positive. Apparently, the Canadians have similar feelings about the performance (and US-follower status) of their own troops in Afghanistan.
Ambassador Wilson – you’re doing great keeping up with the speed of comments here. I often feel sorry for our guests who are suddenly swamped with so many interesting questions, it must be hard to know where to begin!
Joe Wilson @ 190
I don’t know how anyone who is a patriot could be agnostic about you two wonderful Wilsons!
Here is hoping that somewhere in this party is a true patriot who can find the courage to fix this mess.
Thanks for all that you do.
Cujo359 @ 187
I worry more that troops are going to be accused of malingering when they really *have* reached the limit, than I do about troops actually using PTSD as an “excuse.” How are they going to quantify how much distress is real distress? It’s such an individual issue. And who are journalists to say when most of them are not enduring the sights, the sounds and the smells of war?
Siun @ 199
Thanks. Remember about our behavior that it is our turning of our back on those very values that we have espoused for so many years and which are enshrined in our constitution that is the cause of the profound disappointment in the US. It is not our love of freedom as POTUS would have you believe.
Ambassador Wilson,
As the situation deteriorates in Iraq, I’m not reminded of Vietnam as an historical parallel as much as I am reminded of Cambodia in the mid ’70’s, with Al-Sadr playing the role of Pol Pot and Maliki playing the role of Lon Nol. Am I wrong, or are the foundations of a Sunni genocide being built right before my eyes as our government parses the definition of “civil war”?
mark @ 196
Forehead, meet desk.
Siun at 199 — I warned him this morning to be prepared for a lively crowd. :) This is such a wonderful discussion, though — wish we could have more of this sort of givbe and take on the Sunday Talk Head extravaganzas.
watertiger @ 192
The problem is watertiger that Blair’s legacy is in tatters becuase of this fiasco, he will be remembered as the coward who didn’t stand up to Bush.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 183
I was afraid it was because the good Ambassador had, justifiably, referred to Tony Blair as a Churdhill
Thanks, Redd!
The Poodle (sorry Kobe-wan) is rapidly approaching Chamberlain territory with the British people –
Ambassador, I am enjoying your wordsmithing as much as your answers
I have got to leave and I can’t stand it.
I want to tell you Ambassador, conversation with you has been a highlight and an anecdote I will tell my children and my grandchildren.
I thank you for your past service to this country, your current service to America, and your undoubted future service to our beloved.
I would wonder of you might also thank your wife, Valry Wilson for her service as well, tell me you’ll mention her name and my pride will soar higher still.
Have a great night firedogs, and will see everyone later
J. P. Spencer @ 203
All the more reason to try to move this to a conference table and political solution. There are those that argue that absent exhaustion on all sides or victory of one side over the other, the situaiton is not ripe for negotiations. That is often the case but it does not mean we shouldn’t try, all the more so since it was our war that has unleashed the furies.
Ambassador Wilson, would you consider a nomination to be U.N. Ambassador under the next Democratic administration?
I’ve read some of that from different sources; MFI’s blog is one of those very places.
Ambassador Wilson – thank you for the important reminder that we do well when we act in accord with the constitution … and face disaster whenever we deviate from that path!
My own preference for President in ‘08 is someone who loves the Constitution as much as you do sir! thank you!
Amb. Wilson: I have been running late, reading in and out as I can.
I just want to thankyou for this great opportunity to speak to “we the people” a rare chance for us all.
Also thanks to FDL for bringing you into this rare opportunity for us all.
I’ve been thinking more along the lines of al-Sadr as Mao and al-Maliki as Chiang Kai-Shek
Cujo359 @ 187
If I remember correctly Jeff Brown – Charlie’s son is going back or has gone on his 4th tour already
Hi Ambassador Wilson, hope your kids are doing well
Hope I didn’t go over the zig limit ;-)
Stuart @ 207
As well it should be. It’s the truth. As we used to say in college, “You’ve buttered your bread, and now you have to lie in it.”
As a Canadian, I see you as a man of incredible principal, as I once , as a child, saw the USA.
A man of your calibre would be able to undo much of the damage of the last half century. Is there absolutely zero chance that you would never consider being ‘drafted’ to run for the Presidency?
johnSwifty @ 207
So that’s what all the conbloggers and hate-radio dorks mean when they make all those Bush-Churchill comparisons!
Ambassador,
Do you have any opinions on presidential pardons and how they might affect your civil case?
Mr. Wilson, thank you so much for hanging out with us today and answering all these questions.
Here’s to 2007 and all the wonderful changes to come! A Democratic congress, no more Rumsfeld or Cambone, Libby’s trial, and of course, the civil case against Libby and the gang. Maybe there will finally be progress in Iraq. I think it’s going to be a good year.
My best to you and your family.
Thanks for all your brilliant observations!
Rove’s “flawed genesis” remark cracked me up back then because it was so clearly a projection on the Iraq invasion, not your trip.
I just hope the exodus from Iraq isn’t as flawed.
Do you have any thoughts on Scott Ritter and Hans Blix and do you know either personally?
I admire them.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 205
Christie, I love Sunday talking Head, put I’ve had my fill of the Evan Bayhs and the Father Tim Russerts for a while. I’m Meet the Press’d out!
john in sacramento @ 216
Charlie Brown’s son has been there several times and is going back. Charlie should have won his election.
cbl @ 215
Shame on you. Chang Kai Chek is still quite a revered figure in T**wan.
routine “ziggurat” maintenance (reducing the number of nested comments)
angie @ 223
Ritter was the only one who was completely right on WMD (there ain’t none). Blix is a consummate professional. I am sorry to see the opprobrium to which each was subjected by the neocons
watertiger @ 204
so much for his high moral idealism…that’s really surprising, I think Blair’s a boob, but I always thought he was a well-intentioned boob
Joe Wilson @ 196
Thanks. You’re probably right, but I would think Cheney has felt very threatened by Rummy’s departure, and imagine he tried to do anything he could have to prevent such. This would indicate some change on who helps the White House formulate its final say.
I see the ISG less as a serious policy document, more as a vehicle to get Junior to fulfill his destiny in a more economical way, by listening to more practical advisors. Ex posto Cheney. Freely admit, I’m projecting and have no hard data here. It just seems like a good negotiator’s approach to dislodge the necessary roadblocks.
The PNAC target remains Iran. Cheney’s targets remains Iran, the Caspian Basin, and direct energy control, whereas the ISG represents transition to a containment model. The two are inimical. If Cheney undercuts its key recommendations, which boil down to keeping Iran and Syria non-volatile and being a bit freer about bargaining with Iraqi oil, then the failure of the ISG itself would naturally provide basis for going ahead with less gentle methods. This is the fate of our Republic and its wealth that are being played with here by The Crazies.
Being Canadian born, I second this question. Another Camelot?ardyjay @ 218
mui @ 224
Russert had Wayne Downing on last week. Wayne is a war profiteer. He should every time be asked about his ties to the INC and about every contract he had related to post war Iraq. So should Woolsey and every other beltway bandit.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 205
I have to relax on Sundays. Today I’m “working.” This is such good stuff ladies! Thank you for all you do, I can’t say it enough.
Thank you so much for taking my questions.
I listened to them and you (and too few others given the opportunity) in the media and prayed that this admin would listen to no avail.
I wonder why we still get to hear far too little from all of you on the “circuit”.
Instead we have the same ole folks criticizing the conduct of the war, but not the original sin.
I don’t think we have to worry about Bayh Fever sweeping the nation.
MarcLord @ 230
All the more reason for us to keep up the good fight. We have not won every battle (they did go into Iraq after all) but it has become more difficult for them to do everything their deluded ambitions and black paranoia was leading them to.
Joe Wilson @
122
Would you accept an appointment to a position in the government if tapped either by Bush (not likely) or a future president (more likely)?
carmen @ 231
The thought has never crossed my mind.
well, seeing as the lack of a cogent foreign policy and diplomacy is perhaps our biggest problem, I hope that the thought for a run is now firmly implanted.
;)
WOW!
The Witch @ 238
What I have done over the past four years has not been a job interview. I served for 23 years and loved it but I equally love not being in public service. That said if a president asks, it is hard to say no. I agree that I have little to fear that this president might ask. I think it is safe to say I am the last person in the country to whom he would turn.
Joe Wilson @ 232
And yet the Russerts give these people credibility so that the public can’t always distinguish between an expert with bona fide credentials and politically motivated, opportunistc careerist talking heads.
Ambassador Wilson –
Besides calling and faxing our representatives and writing to media organizations demanding better coverage, is there anything we as citizens can do to help prevent a wider war, as planned for by PNAC members — (an attack on Iran or Syria) ?
[Sorry I got here unavoidably late. Thank you for the kindness you showed me in Phoenix (at the Wyndham) in 2004. You patiently answered all my questions that night. God bless you and your wonderful family.]
Joe Wilson @ 232
Agreed. Of course, this begs a few additional questions . . .
Any guesses or suggestions about the best ways to go after the profiteers – congressional hearings or specific legal investigations (not that the DOJ seems terribly interested in investigating possible malfeasance tied to govt contracts)?
Does the pending reorganization of the House and Senate have a chance of getting these folks to account for themselves?
Which House/Senate member do you think will be the toughest questioners?
Joe Wilson @ 210
If I may be so bold as to ask an only slightly related follow-up. We are told constantly by experts that if Iraq partitions itself in the future, leading to some type of autonomous “Iraqi Kurdistan” that Turkey, and possibly Iran, invades to stop that from happening. With regard to Turkey, they are already involved in contentious negotiations to join the EU, with France’s Armenian population being the roadblock of the moment. How does possible, or even probable, EU membership for Turkey work into their Kurdish invasion strategy, in your opinion?
I’d like to take this opportunity to thank you and Valerie for your principled patriotism and I wish nothing but the best for you and your family in the future.
Joe @236,
All the more reason for us to keep up the good fight. We have not won every battle (they did go into Iraq after all) but it has become more difficult for them to do everything their deluded ambitions and black paranoia was leading them to.
Truly, some here have wondered aloud where they park their Nazguls, and what they feed them. The are oil wraiths. In that vein, have you (or Valerie) considered getting involved in energy policy? You both must have considerable experience to bring to the table in that area (oil diplomacy expertise and analysis).
Joe thank you so much for being here today. I know everyone has learned a lot and you have been so very gracious with your time and knowledge. We really appreciate your willingness to do this today.
Joe Wilson @
232
That’s a fascinating bit of information that I have not seen elsewhere.
Is there good info/intel on which Beltway Bandits/Talking Heads are up to their collective asses in this “innocent pundit” misdirection? I saw in Woodwards “State of Denial” that Fareed Zakaria was on the original Iraq Study Group put together by DoD and AEI, something that Zakaria and Newsweek have somehow managed to omit from all their “objective” coverage.
Incest is Best, I Guess when it comes to the media and Iraq.
What do you think will happen to the huge military bases when we pull out? Smash and destroy? What’s Halliburton and other thieves doing in the way of saving their resources? Or have they already stole enough money to cover their losses?
It is so thrilling to be in conversation with such an American hero. Thanks FDL.
Jane Hamsher @ 248
{{applause}}
{{whistles}}
{{cheers}}
Thank you, Ambassador, for your time and your knowledge. It’s been a real honor and pleasure speaking with you today.
We have gone on here for almost 2 1/2 hours. I am going to have to wrap it up. Thank you all for your kind thoughts, your bright questions and observations and most of all for you love of country. We will get over this period. Many generations of Americans have had to fight to retain our liberties. This is our fight.
For info. on our case, http://www.wilsonsupport.org
My book is the POLITICS OF TRUTH.
Valerie will have her book out hopefully by the middle of next year. Joe
Jim @ 229
I will now, and forever, think of Tony Blair as a Churdhill. Is there, honestly, a better word. It seemed, as PM, he had so much more to offer and ended up being just another gasbag. I thought better of him when he first entered the arena on the heals of Thatcher.
Joe Wilson @ 232
For that matter, the defense contractor GE should not be permitted to own networks (NBC, MSNBC, CNBC) which inform citizens eager to understand whether or not this country should go to war. Your basic conflict of interest.
watertiger @ 252
[[[[[[[[[[APPLAUSE]]]]]]]]]]
Thanks so much, Ambassador Wilson and FDL!
watertiger @ 252
Thank you Mr. Ambassador, so very much. Best wishes to you and yours.
Awesome, Joe, and thank you for being so generous with your time. Kind Regards to you and your family, big thanks to Jane and Christy for setting this and so much else up.
And thank you, Jane and Christy, for providing this forum. It’s invaluable.
Joe Wilson @ 253
My optimistic hope is that one day we will be able to look back on this as the low point in American history.
Thank you for being so generous with your time and wisdom here today.
Well that rocked!
MarcLord @ 259
ditto.
johnSwifty @ 207
I was pretty sure “Churdhill” was a typo. Now, I’m not so certain…
punaise @ 227
My son is looking at his third deployment in the near future. He’d probably have more but he just came off a three year medical profile for injuries received in his last deployment.
Mucho thanks Ambassador Wilson. Thank you for fighting the good fight.
many thanks to amb. wilson, jane and christy, wonderful mods and all the excellent questions/comments.
Joe Wilson @ 242
Ironically, you’d be the one person who could save him! (And our sense of justice.)
Thank you, Joe Wilson! Heartfelt greetings to Valerie!
Thanks, Jane & Christy!
Thanks, Firepups, for all the wonderful questions and comments!
Thanks to all who put this together.
Ambassador Wilson,
It appears that you believe that the United States must change it’s role but REMAIN in Iraq or the time being. Is that correct? If so- how do you read the public mood. For how long do you think that will be tolerated. Do you think either political party will be willing to go to the polls in 2008 with a mass of troops still in Iraq?
Thanks for being here with us!
‘We will get over this period. Many generations of Americans have had to fight to retain our liberties. This is our fight.’
And there is yet another example of the optimism of a man who hopefully will someday run your country. Thanks Joe!
EvilDrPuma @ 264
Dr.,
Surely a man of your intellect can understand that a person of Ambassador Wilson’s parts can move with subtlety through various layers of meaning and innuendo. He is a marvel!
In case you are not already overwhelmed by the number of questions in the pipeline, I have one more:
Do you believe that the destabilization of Iraq via the US invasion will lead the rest of the ME into conflagration? For example, do you see Lebanon returning to the level of violence last seen during the Reagan administration?
Also, do you believe that the failed war in Iraq has caused Islamofacism whether in the form of Al Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, Hezbolla or any of the miriad other groups to either grow or coalesce together?
have they in fact learned that the US is not so invincable after all? that our bark was much worse than our bite?
angie @ 263
Me too.
TR –
My good thoughts and prayers go out to your son. May this madness end, and your son enjoy the love and care of his family at home.
Joe Wilson wrote:
Interesting, especially in light of the latest idea to roll out of the beltway. From the Dec. 1st WaPo:
So, beyond considering Iraq to be in a state of civil war or moving towards being a failed state, what are your thoughts on the potential for the situation in Iraq escalating into a region-wide conflagration?
Thanks for taking the time to do this, by-the-way.
First, thanks to Amb. Wilson — for his courage, and also being here.
Second, thx to the Ladies of the Lake.
Third, I only learned about the notion of “failed states” from Robert Kaplan’s book, “The Coming Anarchy” (2001?). Also from reading the Christian Science Monitor, which does a pretty good job of covering this notion from time to time. Otherwise, I don’t see much reporting that would help busy Americans grasp the serious implications of this term… am I off base here?
I don’t think Americans grasp “failed states’ as a general concept. For instance, if I ask my local dentist, or grocery checker, what they think of the fact Iraq is now a “failed state,” and what that implies for their familes, I fear they’ll simply shrug. They won’t grasp that it has implications for their own lives.
I think that there needs to be more… ‘narrative’.. or ’storytelling’ on what this means, and why people need to pay attention.
Do you seem to find that people generally grasp the term ‘failed state’ as in any sense a potential danger to them…? I fear they don’t get it.
(My interest also has a distant relationship to epidemiology — apart from political disasters, ‘failed states’ don’t do a decent job of reporting cases of tb or avian flu, and hence they’re DANGEROUS to the larger global community, IMHO. Hence, my interest in a little more clarity on this topic. Thx in advance if you have time for this question.)
Thank you Ambassador Wilson for your time (I assume you are long gone as Jane posted a new thread). I enjoyed lurking, it was very enlightening.
new thread
It has been an honor.
Thank you sir.
Thank your wife , a brave patriot also.
Thank you FDL crew!
big thanks to Jane and Christy for setting this and so much else up.
yes, indeed
Mrs. K8 -
I think NBC’s bias should be judged against other media companies, not because its parent company’s business interests include defense contracts.
It’s my opinion that NBC is in the middle of the herd when you include NYT, Washpo, CBS, Poxnews and the like.
GE also makes ultrasound machines, jet engines, locomotives, windmills, refrigerators and lightbulbs so I’m not of the opinion that their worldview is consists of nefarious ideas to increase revenues through its military vendor programs.
GE might be a major force behind the industrial military complex but I am unaware of their attempts to further it through the NBC network.
They’re probably too smart for that approach.
How’s your wetsuit and trampoline treating you? Peace.
Many thanks to you for the enlightening conversation, Ambassador Wilson! And thanks to our fine firepups for their great questions, so I could benefit without taking too much attention away from the work I’m supposed to be doing…
Amazing, thanks!
Before I go upstairs…
I’ve been popping in and out for the past few hours, and really enjoying this discussion. My thanks to Ambassador Wilson and the whole FDL crew for such an interesting, informative afternoon.
sigh …too late, as usual.
Great discussion here. Returning to lurk mode…
T- @ 282
One quibble — I don’t think we should include Fox when judging where the middle of the herd is. Fox isn’t a news organization, it’s a propaganda mill. Allowing it to infect our judgment of how mainstream a news organization is results in a similar fallacy to that of politicians who believe the “center” remains halfway between liberals and conservatives, no matter how far the conservatives lurch to the right.
T-
The wetsuit is fine and dandy. And on Saturday I broke down and finally got titanium gloves. The widdle bitty fingers were turning blue after a recent cold snap here in AZ (freezing overnight temps). Now I’m snug as a bug in a rug.
And the trampoline is still nice and springy. Even helps with my mood. It’s hard to stay melancholy when you’re bouncing up and down, looking for that sky hook.
Hope you are well!
Thank you for asking.
grape_crush @ 286
The discussion’s even better once you step out and comment yourself – so feel free to jump in on the next thread, or the next thread that catches your interest!
Peterr @ 289
Lurk not lest ye be lurked, eh Reverend? (Father?) (Padre?)
I Peterr @ 289
I do, on the rare occasion…Really enjoyed the Lamont/Lieberman primary coverage.
BTW; What’s a Swopa?
Titanium gloves? Whowouldathunkit? I would have lost that bet…
Glad you’re enjoying your new toys.
Oh I know! I tried to call Iraq and it was so tough. There are no easy calls on Iraq!
Thank you for hosting, Jane. Very much appreciated; there is no place else that offers such incredible opportunities for dialogue.
grape_crush @
291
That is an excellent question, and you know I have absolutely no idea. Somebody should ask him.
if you’re still reading the comments . . .
Ambassador Wilson,
I’ve popped in-and-out today as I could. The best of this blog too often happens during work hours.
I really enjoyed both the conversation and your generosity of opinion. You contribution to the national dialogue is always appreciated.
As always, thank you ReddHedd and Jane for this invaluable forum.
Here’s wishing the Wilson family a Happy New Year. We’ll be thinking of you both next month when the “first” trial begins for obstruction of justice regarding the investigation into White House espionage activities.
slainte,
cl
Amb. Wilson, do you sense a growing tension between the worker bees of Greater Washington, DC and the GOP/Celebrity Press Corps noise machine? I am thinking of you and your wife, Russel Tice, Bunnatine Greenhouse, Sibel Edmonds, Teresa Chambers, and so many others.
Do you think the GOP noise machine has any inkling of the level of disgust that is brewing in their own zip codes?
If Iraq was more like Kosovo then no one would care. The problem is American Soldiers are dying and we spent about a trillion dollars. I remember in 1999 Republicans were crying about Clinton spending 2 billion on Kosovo. Now we can see things in clear perspective. Clinton and Bush both lied but Republicans get us all in a lot of stuff that’s hard to get out of.
Jane Hamsher @ 295
Swopa?
or SWOPA: Sex Workers Online Protection Act
That is not true:There is an easy call- GET OUT NOW!
The Iraqis want US to leave. Our soldiers want to leave. The American people want US to leave.
Congressman Kucinich has called for cutting off the funds
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..35453.html
Call your congressman and Demand they cut off the funds to Halliburton. There is plenty of money in the pipeline to bring the troops home.
Doug Keenan @ 103
best question EVER
thank you for everything you’ve done Ambassador Wilson
I got no questions, just thanks
Jane and Christy, of all the interviews I’ve read here, this has to rank as the best. Ambassador Wilson chose not to cherrypick, but answered almost everything, and stuck around for quite a long time. I would have liked to hear his response to Steve Gilliard; I presume that came too late for him to get to.
I know that Bush #41 called him the ‘hero of the (first) Gulf war’ and my already high opinion of him has been raised immeasurably by his answers here.
Which also points to so many great commenters asking the right questions. To all involved, merci, gracias, grazi!
There was so much to read that I couldn’t catch up in time to ask my own questions, but many folks here asked ones that came to mind.
All in all, a first class effort, very informative: thank you all.
Kevin Hayden @ 303
the dogs were on FIRE here at jane’s lake
perris @ 304
hehe…quoting myself
anyway, arlo guthry can get a new hit if he wants;
“jane’s lake of fire and dogs”…(you can find out anything you want)
Mr Wilson, I have read and watched you for a time now and respect your conclusions, however I believe that all if not most of the experts pertaining to this discussion are incorrect when they say that IF U.S. FORCES should leave it will become a bloodbath of a civil war. It is my experience and knowledge of ALL MUSLIMS, no matter what country of origin, that if the U.S. troops should leave tomorrow, the first thing all IMAMS(clerics) would do is to call their followers at each and every MOSQUE and inform them that THERE ARE STRANGERS AND TROUBLE MAKERS AMONGST US, GO TO YUOR NEIGHBORHOODS AND COLLECT THESE PEOPLE AND BRING THEM TO ME. The Bloodbath and carnage would last approximately 3 weeks, but would very quickly calm, after the purge. Granted ther would be massive killing upon initial implementation of the IMAMS call for citizenry interactions,however this would quickly cease. I also believe that compairing my scenario with that of the discision to stay until the job is finished is moot due to the fact that there are already approximately 100 people a day dying anyway. At least with my plan therecomes and end. Whatare your thoughts.
THANK YOU
RESPECTFULLY YOURS
GEORGE GROVER
rovinggrover@yahoo.com
Thank you, Ambassador Wilson!
Thank you Jane!
Thank you Christy!
(that was cool!)
punaise @ 300
Way down on my list of things to do someday is to create a personal site, on which a page would be devoted to the many possible meanings of “Swopa” — including the two above.
Sadly, a couple of other sites using the acronym are defunct: The South-West Oklahoma Patrolmen’s Association, and (my fave) the Sexy World Of Pam Anderson.
Swopa @
309
how about Scintillating Wonky Online Punditry, Always?
btw, we await your answer. :~)
That was fantastic and truly a reason that this is my very favorite blog! Thanks to all!
Peterr @
143
Why don’t you in the clergy publicly call fundamentalism based on biblical inerrancy what it is? It is not Christianity. It’s a heresy on Christianity?
Not only would you make a religious battle out of it, removing it from the political realm, my bet is that the Christian clergy who called them on their heresy would find a sharp increase in the size of their dominations. Though it should be done by independent Preachers because the old-line mainstream churches would tend to schism a bit.
The Theocons need to be called on the idiocy they are pushing, and real Christianity needs to be returned to the public realm.
If this is too far off topic, I apologize, but many of the worst errors of the Bush administration seem to me to be based on pressure from the Theocons, and the Theocons appear to be alone in the public sphere. They need competition in the public sphere on their doctrine as well as on their politics. Perhaps then their faith (heretical though it is)-based politics will then become so costly to them that they have to retreat to the shadows where they mostly were after the Scopes trial.
punaise @ 310
Crap, someone cracked the code.
Swopa @
313
Darn, I thought it was your bizarro self: edoms
Just in case anyone ventures back down here, I gotta say this discussion was friggin’ awesome. Thanks to all who particpated.
“And we are all reaping the costs of it as a result.”
I think the Iraqis are the ones “reaping” the costs.
Our policy towards the Middle Eastern Muslims seems to have been decided in the late 1970s by Zbigniew Brzezinski and it was to be equally friendly to both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
We have supported Muslims in Afghanistan in their war against the Soviets. We supported Muslims in Bosnia when Serbia went crazy. We maintained good relations with Saudi Arabia and to a large extent with Saddam Hussein’s Iraq and certainly with Jordan.
But, at the end of the Clinton administration all that seems to have changed. Arafat couldn’t control or operate independent of the militants and it all fell apart.
Then came 9/11 and we went to war against Al Qaeda, and according to Geoge W. Bush with all militant Islamists, even those who weren’t militant until we attacked them and made them militant.
So, what should our current policy towards the Middle East be?
How can we fight the militants who would harm us and our friends without running into the Vietnam problem of not being able to differentiate friend from foe until they use violence?
Going back to the end of the Cold War it seems we were setting up the Iraq-Iran conflict and using both sides to our benefit. Is the Global War on Terror real or just a thing we inspired in order to sell weapons?