
The mystery surrounding the poisoning death of Alexander Litvinenko continues to spread and darken like a cloud of squid ink, and tensions are mounting between the Russian and British Governments. The Russians apparently feel that it was irresponsible for the British government to allow Litvinenko to publish his deathbed letter implicating the Kremlin in his murder. The Brits have responded like the British, thank you very much.
From the Telegraph UK:
Dr Liam Fox, the shadow defence secretary, told The Daily Telegraph: "In Britain, people are still free to speak, which is a lesson that seemingly needs to be learnt in Mr Putin's Russia.
"At first glance, it [the Russian protest] is an outrage. But on a deeper aspect, it is symptomatic of a state that does not understand any longer the concept of free speech."
Dame Pauline Neville-Jones, the former head of the Joint Intelligence Committee, joined the criticism, calling the Kremlin letter "absolute bloody cheek, frankly".
Thank you, Dr. Fox, Dame Neville-Jones. You have the souls of poets.
At this juncture, four people are testing positive for polonium contamination, Litvinko's wife Marina and father, Walter have both received low dosages, well beneath the threshhold of lethality, but his contact at Itsu, Mario Scaramella has received five times what is accepted as a lethal dose of alpha radiation, but he has yet to show symptoms of poisoning. Another former KGB agent in London, Andrei Lugovoi is testing positive for exposure and he also met with Litvinenko the day he fell ill. According to CNN, 27 people have been referred for testing for possible exposure.
We still don't have conclusive word on how the polonium-210 was introduced into Litvinenko's body since the autopsy process has been complicated by the fact that the cadaver is still highly radioactive. (From The New Scientist via Chip Scanlon at Poynter Online.)
Meanwhile, possibly the most delicate autopsy ever performed in London is due to take place on Friday, at the Royal London Hospital, when radiation-suited pathologists gingerly prise apart the highly toxic body of Litvinenko. What they find might suggests where the radioactive element polonium-210 suspected of poisoning him came from.
(snip)
“It looks like a typical 30-day radiation death,” says Dudley Goodhead, former director of the British Medical Research Council’s Radiation and Genome Stability Unit at Harwell in Oxfordshire.
Relative doses
A person dies of the highest doses of radiation immediately. If the dose was high enough to destroy the intestinal wall, death takes five days, Goodhead explains. At lower doses, enough to destroy the bone marrow, a particular syndrome sets in with death typically at around 30 days, with some variation. Both Litvinenko’s symptoms and time to death are consistent with that, he says.
That means he probably received only microgram amounts of polonium, Goodhead suggests. But only half would have been cleared from his body before he died. “There will be plenty left for the autopsy team to worry about,” as the polonium would be distributed widely throughout the body.
Since the radioactive element decays fast, with a half-life of only 138 days, the alpha particles it emits possess very high energy, making even tiny amounts toxic. As an unexplained death, by law Litvinenko must receive an autopsy. But just the small droplets released, for example, as the autopsy team opens his chest, could be dangerous.
The other lingering question is, obviously, who did it and why. Occam's razor says to always go for the simplest explanation, and that would be that the Kremlin silenced Litvinenko as well as Moscow journalist Anna Politkovskaya. That just doesn't sit right with me, though. Why go to so much trouble when all they had to do was shoot him and leave his body in an alley? Why invoke such a public, excruciating death, one that would enable Litvinenko to point the finger of blame at the Putin government?
Dr. Hillhouse has a roundup piece at The Spy Who Billed Me addressing many of the current theories out there:
- The murder was designed to frame Putin as to frighten other regime critics into silence.
It’s a very Western perspective to believe that framing the FSB/Putin for the murder of a dissident in London would have any affect upon Putin's power, except to increase his popularity with the old-timers still longing for Uncle Joe. Despite what many wanted to believe about his democratic tendencies several years ago, Putin was then and remains an authoritarian ruler. Public opinion has no impact on his power unless there are massive uprisings in the streets and even then it only really matters if the military refuses to quell it.
(snip)
- It was designed to frame Putin to cause international uproar as part of a larger campaign to oust him from power.
Newsflash: International political opinion carries little to no real weight in domestic politics (with a few possible exceptions.) The US is a prime example. The world has not exactly been pleased with how the US has conducted itself in the War on Terror and in Iraq. Now think about how negative world opinion has impacted US domestic politics both in terms of the actions of the Bush Administration and voter behavior. It hasn't.
(snip again)
- It was done to scare Putin, demonstrating that one of the Russian mafias could not only access state-controlled radiation sources but also frame Putin for the murder.
He would not be shaking in his fur-lined boots over this. Unprofessionalism aside, demonstrating that the Russian mafia could kill someone in London is not impressive. Russian control on nuclear isotopes is so loosey-goosey (to use a technical term) that Putin is more likely to be shocked if it were all accounted for. Scientists are highly underpaid and and easy bribery targets.
Clearly, these are valid points, but I'm going to go way, way out on a limb here and posit that this murder was carried out by operatives of Yukos, the oil company owned by jailed petro-oligarch Mikhail Kordorkovsky. I have precious little to back this up except a gut feeling, a denial, and this piece from The Australian:
A DOSSIER drawn up by Alexander Litvinenko on the Kremlin's takeover of the world's richest energy giant will be given to Scotland Yard overnight as police investigate the former KGB spy's secret dealings with some of Russia's richest men.
It emerged yesterday that Mr Litvinenko travelled to Israel just weeks before he died to hand over evidence to a Russian billionaire of how agents working for President Vladimir Putin dealt with his enemies running the Yukos oil company.
He passed this information to Leonid Nevzlin, the former second-in-command of Yukos, who fled to Tel Aviv in fear for his life after the Kremlin seized and then sold off the $US40 billion ($51 billion) company.
And then there's this piece at CNN, in which former KGB operative Yuri Shvets says he knows who killed his friend Litvinenko and that he has handed over a dossier to Scotland Yard. He refuses to verbally implicate anyone because, "I want this inquiry to get to the bottom of it, otherwise they will be killing people all over the world — in London, in Washington and in other places. I want to give the police the time and space to crack this case, to allow them to find those behind this assassination, the last thing I want to do is give a warning to those who are responsible."
(Yeah, not like us.)
And then he denies that Yukos had anything to do with the murder:
In a separate statement issued through Tom Mangold, a London-based former British Broadcasting Corp. reporter and friend for 15 years, Shvets denied claims published Sunday in Britain's Observer newspaper that he had been involved in the drafting of a dossier on Russian oil company Yukos.
If Shvets was Tony Snow, I would say that now we've solved everything. It's like I told my brother last spring, "I've gotten to where I don't believe anything anymore until the White House denies it. Then I know it's the truth."
UPDATE: It has been pointed out to me in the comments that the documents that Litvinenko and Shvets are making available to the British government are probably favorable to Yukos and incriminating to the Putin government. For some reason I had it in my head that these documents would be equally damning to both parties. Still! It's my theory and I'm sticking to it. Nyah. Nyah. Nyah.
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TREX !!
Zero!
Yessssssssssss!
Can we send Newt (who also has to learn respect for freedom of speech) to do a legislative internship with these good people in Parliament?
Teddy – you sneaked by. Congrats!
Trex! Just wanted to compliment you first off on last nights. Woohoo, one of your best! I went back and read it this morning and did the obligatory coffee spew multiple times. I had a multiple spew!
Nice, TRex– is that a scrimshaw handle?
blowhards are everywhere except here at FDL.
well done, sir.
Unless it’s the paedophiles worldwide covering for Putin, Foley, et al.
Is this some kind of test?
:)
I’ll be good.
Cozumel’s news is too good to leave in EPU land,
2 threads back:
Coz speaking:
Nice comment, Christy! I’ve spent the last few days reconnecting with my soul mate in the real world. : )
A little over three years ago I put a diamond solitaire engagement ring on her finger, we just happened too fast though and it scared both of us because of it! LOL Anyway, we’ve reconnected and we’re stronger than ever. Damn I love that woman and the feeling’s mutual, has been all along. BTW, we met online on a site much like this one. Shit happens! LOL
You’ll get a kick out of this. She’s an attorney and former judge ; )
Merry Christmas, indeed!
[end Coz comment]
Richmond @
5
A thorough and timely refresh of prevthread sometimes illuminates an 8:03 LateNite without anyone else knowing….
Hooray for Coz!!
Hooray for LOVE!!
TRex @ 12
I’d say he’s positively glowing – but that would be wrong.
Oh, lord, here come the radiation jokes.
Oh, wow, Coz.
Happy snoopy dance all around!
jiminy.
“Souls of poets”
Takes one to know one!
I love reading the letters to the editor in the Times of London.
They can cut opponents down to size with minimum of slices. The Brits also have a tradition of dealing with hecklers by humiliating them when they interfere with speeches.
TRex @ 14
Luckily they have a short half-life.
Coz is positively radiating with love for his woman!
Patrick 4/4 @ 17
Should we just get iridium altogether?
egregious, I hope you understand my and (maybe also, but I won’t speak for him!) TRex’s curiosity about p-210, putin, and the Russian mob and oligarchy. I don’t ascribe un-human motives to the Russians, I just want to know what happened. This speculation doesn’t say anything about my views or prejudices about Russian people; I have very little to contribute in that area.
I only remember my mom’s trip to the Soviet Union on a college-alum tour. She came home surprised her luggage’d been gone through every nite. She was also puzzled by the well-dressed folks who’d show up at their events and dinner tables. This was in the early Nineties, and mom hadn’t thought that traveling and rooming with a retired CIA NOC would generate surveillance.
So, Trex–
how’s Pammy faring and what do think of the firing of Bolty?
I think it doesn’t really scan to separate Yukos from the Kremlin. They may not be entirely congruent, but a Venn diagram would show some serious overlap.
My take is they wanted to kill and smear Litvinenko. He was involved with smuggling nuclear materials for the FSB, so I think they hoped that would be a cover story for the gullible and a warning for those whom they wished to know.
angie @ 20
Um, dial ‘m’ for meltdown. My dawgs over at Sadly, No! have been doing a series about it, chronicling every blenderful of kiwi-lime daiquiries.
Hi, everyone!
Oh, I just watched some stuff on the Litvinenko Case on CNN…
It gave me a nu-clear perspective on the case.
[sorry, I couldn’t help it ; ) ]
egregious at 8:21 pm
Thanks so much, I would have missed it, if you hadn’t brought the news over.
Great post TRex, thanks.
yay!
Patrick 4/4 @ 22
Aren’t there lotsa ways to kill a snoopy former spy who’s talking outta school that don’t allow him time to call out his assassin? It’s the very public and publicly available aspects of his death that I don’t yet get.
Unless Putin’s allies ( or enemies ) don’t get the www?
Egregious and I discussed this issue earlier tonight and she gave me her blessing via email, so as long as you guys can keep in mind that we’re talking about the murder of a man who lived a short, difficult life, well, just remember that we’re not talking about somebody stealing somebody else’s lighter here. I am sure that aspects of this story could be seen as funny in a ghastly sort of way, but I don’t see much to laugh about here.
TeddySanFran @ 27
I think it has more to do with so demonizing your opponent that it’s impossible to believe anybody else would see him differently.
TeddySanFran @ 20
Whoa! Crazy stuff. Just traveling with a retired CIA NOC sounds intriguing!
Accustomed as we are to the novelistic and cinematic aspects of the SPY vs. SPY universe, constant reminders that this is a real person, and that there’s a also real widow in fear for her own health, are always appropriate.
The weapon of choice here has me wondering about a lot of things. Either the killers thought that The Spy Who Talks would die mysteriously and no one would figure out how he died, or they were trying to send a message by using polonium.
The former seems unlikely, as the killers had to have known that the death of a Spy Who Talks would generate a fair amount in news and thus a formal inquest. If someone wanted the death to go unnoticed and uninvestigated, this is not the weapon I think they would have chosen. A well planned car “accident,” a “robbery” gone bad, or a number of other Ludlumesque possibilities suggest themselves to me as much more likely.
Polonium is not an easily obtained, mass marketed Saturday Night Special type of weapon. Not all that many folks can get access to this kind of material in the quantities needed for a killing like this. It’s almost as if the killers wanted the death to make the news, and also as if they believe that they can survive an investigation led by the British.
Beyond silencing this Spy Who Talks, the killers are also trying to send a message to others who might be tempted to spill some nasty secrets. If that’s the case, I’d say their message went out loud and clear. Now it’s up to the British to see if the killer’s faith in surviving an investigation is warranted.
TRex @ 27
But then again, if you guys want to make radiation jokes, don’t let me stop you.
I want to know why we are NOT at terror level RED and having body cavity searches instead of not being able to carry MY OWN bottle of Aquafina?
The BA contamination could be from exposed people who use the loo. Years ago when I did acute care, patients would have radiological seeds inserted for cancer treatment. We all wore badges and Geiger counters to check the body fluids before dumping the potty.
Another part of Occam’s razor is who benefits. I follow the money, who?
So, Peterr, in attempting to silence a former spy, this is the Russians’ version of Novakula’s July 14th column?
TRex @ 33
That reminder, too, is always appropriate.
So how will the president of these United States deal with this situation?
Mary McCurnin @ 37
Snicker.
Um…he’ll get real mad and go clear some brush. Dern Rooskies!
Mary McCurnin @ 37
You are right, Mary M — why no inquiries from the pet WHPress Corpse about this incident? Blair’s coming to visit Thursday; he and W’ll surely have a joint presser; David Gregory better step up!
Learn by example, conveniently ignoring the “getting caught” part… except a bunch of irradiated mullahs in Iraq.
Mary McCurnin @
37
TRex @ 38
“He forgot to mention Polonium!”
sorry.. ‘expect’.. not except
Really, this is a sad story…
I shouldn’t be engaging in cheap jokes here.
While I don’t want to believe that this happened, it looks like the Russian government is somehow involved in the murder. I mean, it seems more than just “coincidental” how prominent Kremlin critics are falling like flies. But what can we do about it? The only individual on the world stage who is probably trusted even less than Vladimir Putin is George W. Bush…
And besides, Bush still apparently “understands Putin’s soul”, and he can “talk with Putin about issues”…
Like how to silence critics?
g’nite folks.
TeddySanFran @ 39
What can Bush do about this?
Nighters, angie!!
*Good night smooch*
Good night, angie! : )
Bush cant do a damn thing about what happened. It’s a matter for Blair and Putin to resolve.
All Pups Bulletin:
As an elder in the Presbyterian Church— ooops, wrong thread.As an occasionally humorless drama-hyping bipolar winter-depressive Russian humanitarian, and of course there are many of us, I hereby grant my blessing to all and sundry kinds of writers and writings here.
Yes people died as part of this story, and I think you sense I care about life, but we can use many kinds of thinking and writing to be creative in our understanding.
Have a blast [little radiation humor].
TRex @ 28
Great to hear!
Like TSF and you TRex, I too wanted to ensure Egregious that my fascination is because I’m someone who majored in Russian Studies and I’ve had a life-long interest in things Russian.
EG, you have no idea how much I admire you, your calling in life and the goodness you spread!
If I haven’t said it before, you are an inspiration to us all!
atdnext @ 45
He can commit all of the country’s considerable resources to closing the Incompetent Assassin Gap.
Unless Putin’s allies ( or enemies ) don’t get the www?
That’s been my assumption. The stuff about smuggling for A-Q might be just a rebound attempt.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 48
And considering his terrible track record on foreign policy issues, perhaps Bush shouldn’t…
Besides, you’re really correct…
It’s between Russia and the UK.
Hear, hear!!
And pumpkin muffins.
Okay, kids. Heading home.
TeddySanFran @ 35
That’s certainly one strong possible parallel. Another would be that this killing is an episode where there might be some plausible deniability at the top, as one lower-ranking (but still significantly powerful) office engages in some unofficial actions of their own. Those at the top ask “What can we do about Mr. L?” and those a bit further down answer “You don’t want to know . . .”
Hmmm . . . Iran/Contra, anyone?
It is, and the Brits are PISSED! They consider Litvinenko to be a British citizen, slain (potentially) by another national government. Hell, that’s an act of war.
Okay, really heading home now.
egregious @ 49
Egregious, I’m glowing with happiness….
[or maybe that’s ’cause I just ate my smoke detector…
it’s a near-Marin thing…
seeking that inner light…]
and this may seem specious -
’cause detectors use Americi
[-um]
atdnext @ 53
Presumes facts not in evidence. Where are Cheney’s black ops teams, and were they near the sushi bar?
“Who will rid me of this meddlesome Mr. L?”
Peterr @ 55
who can rid me of this meddlesome spook?
congrats tsf! (in bold, no less)
London Times:
Teddy–great story about your mom. I just assume that everything I do over there and everything I say are being recorded for posterity.
I figure it makes it easier for my biographer.
A single person repeatedly traveling with extra luggage back and forth to Russia? Believe me there were investigations on both sides of the Atlantic. No one could figure me out.
Some of the western investigations were…clumsy and embarrassing. One of them was pretty good. Some of the eastern ones I could see and I’m sure there were others that were and are invisible. Investigate away, boys, you’ll still find I’m in it for the purpose of: saving the lives of newborns. Have at it.
First I was insulted to be investigated, finally I realized it meant we had a big enough program that it was coming to their attention. So that was ok then, if still annoying. All part of the gift to these families, and the gift of working for peace and reconciliation between warring nations.
[end of today’s Christmas homily :) ]
Another thing to keep in mind, the British investigators and the media work in an entirely different manner than our police/FBI and media work. Due to the Official Secrets Act maybe or maybe another law over there, publishing information about ongoing investigations in the UK is simply not done until the investigation has run its course. Contrast that to the favorite subject of FDL, the Libby Case.
Speculation is all anyone can deal with right now because the UK investigators (not sure, is it MI-5? MI-6?) are busy trying to figure out this case. Until they release their official report we cannot begin to understand what happened excpet for what little tidbits are ascertained by media. Take it all with a big grain of salt until the final report is issued.
TeddySanFran @ 58
The basic crime of murder may be between the UK and Russia, but the use of polonium as a weapon makes it an issue far beyond those two countries. We’re talking about various potential international treaty violations (non-proliferation, chemical/biological weapons treaties, etc.) to which many nations – including the US – are signatories.
Trust me: the folks at the State Department are working overtime on this one, along with their friends at the CIA, NSA, and DOD. When someone starts tossing closely held nuclear materials around at their enemies, it makes lots of folks very, very nervous. Even before 9-11.
I disagree that poisoning is too troublesome and attention grabbing.
Poisoning by mysterious materials not easily detected and not readily tested for appears to be the MO against many who challenge the Kremlin.
Remember Viktor Yushchenko – now President of the Ukraine? When running popularly for President against Putin’s puppet candidate in 2004, he comes down with a mysterious rare illness which takes months to determine is likely the result of dioxin poisoning. With levels of dioxin in his body far exceeding a normal exposure limit.
Who poisoned Yuschchenko?
I find it bizarre that here too with poisoning by some unknown (at the time) substance, opponents just suggested that it could just be due to bad sushi.
Who dropped the poison, assuming it wasn’t Litvinenko’s own accident, which I doubt? Letting a possibly tracable operator get away might have been worth risking some publicity, which, as others have pointed out, could in any event be useful.
Mad Dogs @ 50
You are such a sweetheart. Thank you.
I kinda blew it the other night. I was upset but was only saying goodbye for now, because of a 3 day trip to see my aunt while she could still recognize me. Sorry if I gave the impression that I was abandoning fdl or worse.
Fdl is likely stuck with me for the duration and in case of the latter, I will be extremely clear and ask for help of a specific nature.
I’ve got a really detailed contour map of my depression and am working on the equivalent map of my mania. It’s mostly uncharted territory but am beginning to see some familiar landmarks. Thank you all for your patience and your love. IT MATTERS.
TRex @ 56
Yep, this has been a HUGE story in the British press…
Oh, and speaking of that, The Guardian is reporting that if someone in Russia really is behind the poisoning, that person may never actually be brought to justice:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/russ…..39,00.html
Patrick 4/4 @ 62
For the record, let me state that I am not the Times’ “senior police source.”
Has it ever been determined who poisoned the Ukrainian leader Yuschenko?
Seems like some bad spooks running around that neck of the woods.
-GSD
egr — some of us got all the signals re: trip plan, russia upset, and farewell comment. it looked quite logical to me, but don’t go by me. not to denigrate the concern others felt, perhaps from only seeing one of your comments….
egregious @ 68
Egregious, you grace us.
Love you.
egregious @ 68
Sounds like you’re making a good attempt to understand your illness. Keep at it. I know that with my SO’s psychiatric disorder, the two tricks have always been to recognize the signposts and to realize that they may pop up from time to time independent of the pattern. Good luck!
Peterr @ 65
Perhaps… But what can the US then do about this?
New Ukrainian Y-guy coming to visit BigTime and ‘Sleezza next week!
EvilDrPuma @ 74
Maybe it helps to put a “This way to FDL” sign on that map too.
Much love, egr!
GSD @ 71
Yes and no.
The Poisoning of Ukraine’s President
egregious @
68
Depression and manic/depression run in various streams all over my family and sticking it out is one of the hardest things – for the sufferer and their loved ones. If you’re sticking it out – why shouldn’t we?
atdnext — why, we could invade Russia! It’s wintertime, perfect for an assault on St. Petersburg.
Peterr @ 70
His name only has one “r”.
TeddySanFran @ 80
Perhaps we can blow up the Hermitage, and show them what we think about their “culture”?
GSD @
71
There again, the trail cooled quickly, the op probably got away clean. I wonder if note was taken of Yuschenko’s survival?
Patrick–
It goes with being creative and energetic. Hope it’s worth it.
My doctor wanted a family history of everybody with mental illness and their meds. I said are you going to cancel the rest of your appointments today?
delayed response:
johnSwifty @
149
I was just doing routine maintenance on a zig based on french fries. no barb intended.
(PS: the malt = them all?)
Egregious, as always I will keep you in my prayers for brothers and sisters who share my conditions, in this case depression. Just try to remember there are many who love you and the world is a better place with you in it depressed than with you not in it at all. You control the disease, don’t let the disease control you.
Look! Up there! Shiny thing! Is it a full moon?
TeddySanFran @ 80
Shhhhh. So far, no historical strategic mistake has been too grievous for Bush to give it another try.
Peterr @ 70
Peterr-
Hmmm…
given the disclaimer -
perhaps you can tell me…
should I bother to FOIA myself, or should I spare myself the file inadequacy?
(enquiring dissidents want to know)
redactively yours…
prostratedragon @
83
Spook note to self: Use more poison unless rendering victim ugly is considered a worthy goal.
-GSD
omg. 100,000 contractors in Iraq.
Excerpt:
The survey finding, which includes Americans, Iraqis and third-party nationals hired by companies operating under U.S. government contracts, is significantly higher and wider in scope than the Pentagon’s only previous estimate, which said there were 25,000 security contractors in the country.
egregious @ 84
I’m lucky. I just got the depressive end of it. I do my best not to romanticize it – it’s like sugar to a diabetic.
EvilDrPuma @ 88
When the Pentagon announces winter fatigues that unbutton in the rear, I’ll really worry.
(i’d call this a straight line, but US never can tell…)
pardon the typhoids – my fingers have nervous ticks….
OT, but significant and very disappointing.
I see no risk at all in offering a hearty “fuck you” to these baboons.
EvilDrPuma @ 88
If he couldn’t even remember the lesson his daddy tried to pass on to him, what makes us think he’d remember this old, time-tested lesson:
NEVER INVADE RUSSIA IN WINTER!
OT.
I recently saw the “80% solution” floated about. Referring to the US casting total lots with Shiites and Kurds in Iraq and allowing for the alienation and or purging of Sunnis in Iraq.
There was a quote from Al Hakim after meeting with Bush where he stated that the US needs to bring the hammer down on the Sunnis.
I wonder if the “80% solution” which sounds more like the final solution for 20% of Iraqis is about to take place.
-GSD
Another excerpt, with an exciting neologism with other potential uses! tsf bold
TeddySanFran @ 80
Btw it’s very pretty and quiet there in the winter. The snow covers a great many things of varying aesthetic qualities, and dampens the sound. It can be enchanting. I always enjoy my winter trips.
Back to war. When we were bombing Serbia in ‘99, highly educated people over there asked me if we were going to bomb Russia next. I tried to respond in a restrained manner. It was the only trip that I had to hide my passport cover, so people wouldn’t see I was an American, and I was advised not to speak in public, revealing my accent.
“Winter perfect for an assault on”…I think that’s Napolean and Moscow. The Germans had kind of a year round blockade thing going in Leningrad/St.Petersburg that still cripples families there. My mom is 82 and there are a lot of families there that should have relatives that age, but don’t because of the blockade.
We here in Virginia think the
Civil WarRecent Unpleasantness Between the Sovereign States was the day before yesterday….TeddySanFran @ 87
Tis.
Chimpy:
“We could open up a third front against the Russians?”
-GSD
P @
78
Ah, how easily we forget!
One more!
..or get them the hell outta Dodge!
Here’s another old, time-tested lesson: never invade Russia in the summer either. They are willing to lose tens of millions of people in defense.
atdnext @ 75
Depending on how “official” any Russian governmental sanction of the killing is, there are various options. The biggest thing the US can do, IMHO, would be to (a) give the Brits every scrap of evidence and proof of links that we can dig up, (b) let the Brits take the big public lead against the Russians, likely routed through NATO, the EU and/or the Security Council, and (c) stay the hell out of the way in public, but push like hell behind the scenes to support whatever the Brits are pushing. Greater international monitoring of Russian nuclear materials would be one possibility, as would threats of kicking the Russians out of the EU. They NEED their EU membership, badly, and anything that screws with that will put them in a world of hurt. Of course, people (and nations) who feel boxed in will sometimes do desperate things, and so the Brits/EU/UN will likely tread lightly but firmly if they head down this path.
If the Russian govt is not officially involved, the heat will really be on them to (a) identify the unofficial culprits, (b) take appropriate steps against them [likely in Russia’s system rather than the UK’s - charge, try, convict, and sentence them for illegally obtaining the polonium and whatever other laws may have been broken there], and (c) take additional steps to be able to assure folks this won’t happen again. That last step will be the toughest for the Russians.
Given the current reputation of the US around the world, almost anything we would say publicly would NOT help matters. Remember Powell’s speech to the UN? Our public credibility is shot. This is one of the sad, unintended results of the going-it-alone, my-way-or-the-highway school of diplomacy and military adventurism undertaken by BushCo.
GSD @ 96
per Digby’s simple answers etc: Yes.
GSD @ 100
This is me, saying nothing.
[Dear God In Heaven]
WaPo chatz tomorrow!
White House Reporter Michael Abramowitz at 11 am eastern
Opinion Columnist Gene Robinson at 1pm eastern
WTOP political commentator Mark Plotkin at 2pm eastern
I think a likely scenario is that somebody (mid-levelish) in the Russia oligarchy/state-security apparatus will be identified to take the fall for this… there will be a show trial, a conviction, a suitably long prison sentence, and a quiet pardon a couple of years afterwards…
egregious @
106
It’s a WWII nostalgia tour: Potsdam via Tehran and Yalta…
prostratedragon @ 101
“Nearly poisoned?” As I remember it, the legend goes that he was poisoned but did not die. Not quite the same thing…although the whole story seems a bit apocryphal from what I recall of it.
Peterr @ 104
Yep, that’s probably the only way we can be involved…
Surreptitiously, behind the scenes, helping the UK with the investigation, but allowing them to take the lead (and the credit)…
For the Brits’ sake, we can’t afford to screw things up for them.
I love the idea of a lunar outpost. Seriously, this is one of the greatest ideas of our time. Think 21st century Lewis & Clark. Man should step further into the stars and this is how we begin to do it.
egregious @ 103
Ah, yes – the first of the two classic blunders pointed out by Vizzini in The Princess Bride – never get involved in a land war in Asia.
Only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!
Peterr @ 113
Ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha thud!
punaise @ 85
“Malt Vinegar,” it’s kinda a Canadian thing; they put it on french fries.
No worries, I was teasing. Your puns frequently make my eyes pull violently together. Absent that sensation, something must be out of sorts. Invariably, Lassie would report that Timmy is stuck in a well.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 86
Fini, thank you for your love and concern. It helps me to know I am not alone in experiencing life this way, and not alone when I need to reach out for help.
My minister in Massachusetts used to tell me that even when I was only working at 30%, not to despair, because that was more than some people at 100%. It is painful to realize I cannot operate at full speed all the time. Well do we run our cars at top speed with no down time for maintenance? Maybe winter is my emotional pit stop.
That sounds like telegrams of old. Winter is my emotional pit. Stop. :)
Blub @ 108
. . . or instead of a quiet pardon, we might see the “mysterious death” of said mid-levelish security official, perhaps even before said trial ever takes place.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 112
moonifest destiny
egregious @ 98
Hmmmm… Didn’t Napoleon speak of marching across Europe, conquering other lands in the name of “spreading the ideals of the Revolution”?
Sorry, that just sounds eerily familiar to me…
Perhaps King Solomon was right…
There’s nothing new under the Sun.
johnSwifty – okee doke, then
He used to say it too fast.
Someday he’ll say it just right.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 112
My son and I were looking up at the night sky, I said during his lifetime probably people would go to Mars.
His reaction: “So?”
I’m like Mars! Mars! The planet Mars! But for him that has always been possible. For me the idea that people could leave earth and travel in outer space was…well…Space Age.
Well.. we could always propose that Cheney’s bunker be relocated to there…
punaise @
118
here’s what happened to Napoleon’s army on the Moscow round trip.
punaise @ 120
I was reading, did I miss anything good?
punaise @ 124
I believe it was upon Napoleon’s departure for that campaign that Josephine uttered the famous prophetic words, “Don’t get blown apart, Bonaparte.”
atd– [if I may call you that]
I was thinking about this idea on the plane home today. We won’t talk about the 2.5 hours waiting on the runway.
France and Germany are vilified for killing people across Europe in the last 200 years—and rightly so. But there are countries who have killed people all over the world. We wait for this history to be told.
Someday the mothers of the world will decide that children are too precious to be used as cannon fodder. Call me a dreamer.
Hey, we worked hard to make them, they don’t call it labor for nothing, and then you have the teenage years.
EvilDrPuma @
110
Wiki says there’s question, based on his daughter’s testimony of his diet, whether he actually would have eaten the poisoned foods. However, the autopsy found evidence of potentially fatal poisoning, as well as gunshot wounds and evidence of beating. Cause of death: drowning.
I thought Baker already told Dick to stick it on Uranus.
Blub @ 123
egregious @ 122
Well, you grow up with Star Wars and part of your reality is formed around a conscious idea that human beings can exist in space. There isn’t too much evidence presented to kids to give a contrary notion. My kids wouldn’t question it either, I’m sure.
johnSwifty @ 125
use news, you lose?
The toddlers would.
No one could hear them scream.
If you haven’t seen, The Smoking Gun has pictures of US citizen Jose Padilla, yet to be tried and driven to mental illness by George W. Bush.
Then they came for Padilla.
-GSD
Anne Applebaum has a column on this in tomorrow’s WaPo. After she runs down the list of all kinds of folks known to be involved in this, here’s her conclusion:
To Anne, I’d say “Who are you calling ‘we,’ Kemosabe, when you talk about being surprised?” There have been folks clamoring about unsecured nuclear material in Russia for years at State, Defense, and the CIA, but they’ve never gotten the support they needed to take steps to mitigate these possibilities.
When the media turns to this element of the story, you know Bush’s line is already written: “I Blame Clinton.”
punaise @ 124
Thanks, punaise, I was just about to look for it.
Peterr @ 134
Thanks peterr -
wonder what Sam Nunn would say…?
prostratedragon @ 128
EvilDrPuma @
110
prostratedragon @ 101
P @
78
The Poisoning of Ukraine’s President:
Russia’s KGB has a long history of failed assassination attempts of political figures, stretching as far back as the time of Rasputin, Tsarina Alexsandra’s mystic who was nearly poisoned in 1916 by pastries laced with cyanide.
Ah, how easily we forget!
“Nearly poisoned?” As I remember it, the legend goes that he was poisoned but did not die. Not quite the same thing…although the whole story seems a bit apocryphal from what I recall of it.
Wiki says there’s question, based on his daughter’s testimony of his diet, whether he actually would have eaten the poisoned foods. However, the autopsy found evidence of potentially fatal poisoning, as well as gunshot wounds and evidence of beating. Cause of death: drowning.
egregious:
They tried to kill him more than once. What finally worked was first poison, which weakened him, and then being thrown out the window into the river that night. I have been in the room where the young noble brought him his plate. It was truly shocking to think what must have gone through his mind. In his book he says he almost couldn’t do it, despite the fact that Rasputin was ruining the nation.
That sounds like telegrams of old. Winter is my emotional pit. Stop. :)
707
LOL
thud.
Polonium 210 and anthrax compared. Let’s face it, current and past superpowers have long had the capability to kill damn near everybody on the planet and it seems that every once in awhile some individual affiliated with one or the other just can’t resist taking the toys out and playing with them, just a little.
egregious @ 127
I certainly hope that we can change…
If I didn’t have hope, I wouldn’t bother getting involved in politics.
Still, I get discouraged whenever I think about history. My Pre-Calc teacher always said that history was like a sine curve…
It always followed the same pattern…
Could this be true?
I hope we can change…
I hope we can learn to live in peace…
But is history on our side?
Btw, I’m sorry to hear about what you’ve been going through…
And you can call me whatever you want. ; )
atdnext @ 140
even Ishmael?
egregious @ 137
I was just reading a book called The Most Evil Men and Women in History (a little light reading before bed).
Rasputin fell in between Joseph Stalin and The Countess of Bathory.
One of my favorites:
Applebaum’s an idiot. Here’s my email to her:
Yep..it’s in video form here at Time http://www.time.com/time/natio…..98,00.html and the NYT had a rather graphic article describing precisely how he was abused, today.. I linked it in the previous article (here).
This could be ANYBODY. He’s as native-born and as American as I am.. and anybody else here. Detained incommunicado, tortured and driven insane at the pleasure of the President… yep, we can all be proud Americans now.
GSD @
133
I’m back.
What did I miss?
Hey, you know how much of a geek I am? The phrase “single malt” to me means a special milkshake with only one straw in it.
YEOWCH!!
That’s gonna leave a mark.
TRex @ 145
“…and first of all, they don’t have malts, just shakes, which is my big gripe with the D.Q….”
–Randee of the Redwoods
Richard Cohen begins his WaPo column tomorrow about Webb’s White House infraction with the unsurprising phrase
They pay this man WHAT?
TRex @ 146
Walter Koenig spoke better Russian.
TRex @ 146
ah, yes: the malt tease flacon
punaise @ 150
Now we’re talking baby! See, that’s what I mean. I actually felt Dashiell Hammett roll over in his grave on that one!
TeddySanFran @ 148
What a putz. Nothing will get done if people are rude! Well, good, damn it, if what gets done is what Dauphin W. Bush wants.
Hey folks.
Home sick tonight. Can’t seem to stay healthy lately. Always something….
And I haven’t been eating the sushi…
The British were quite firm in promoting free speech in the face of Putin’s request that the accusations against Russia would be suppressed. Given the dubious status of free speech in the United States under the Bush 43 administration, I wonder if someone will ask the White House whether they support Britain or Russia in the dispute over the release of the accusation?
patrick rex @ 153
“I WANT FUGU!!!”
–Homer Simpson
punaise @ 150
Which brings us to the horror that is…Cylon and Garfunkel!
Robert Butler @ 154
Well, perhaps we should finally do what Greg Palast suggested years ago:
Since our media never uses the First Amendment, why don’t we just loan it to Britain, where they might actually find some use for it?
patrick rex @
154
That’s exactly what happened to me when I got home from Washington. Exhausted. My body made me feel like crap so I would lie still for a while.
johnSwifty @ 142
Where is Courtney Love in that list?
Patrick 4/4 @ 109
what Yalta kin bout?
Underneath someone else more famous of course.
Anybody here from prospect of whitby, egregious = smac
johnSwifty @
141
I have heard this, but have yet to hear anything that puts him way, way—way—down there in the abyss with Stalin, whose transition was a lot less gruesome (or more expert). Bear in mind, I assume the author is talking about historical figures of some stature on the world stage, so as not to be too apple-orangey.
Rasputin seems to me more as an unscrupulous manipulator and charlatan who happened along at a historically delicate time which magnified his misdoings—not good, but not a mass murderer and despot over millions, either. The real feature spots go to those who get to decide things, in my book.
As for the Countess, whoever she is …
TRex @ 162
Maybe she’s between Yoko Ono and Barbara “Beautiful Mind” Bush
punaise @ 141
OK, though most of my friends just say, “Andrew”.
Poor Courtney Love. The one thing I really learned when I met her is that her life sucks in ways that make my life look like the goddamn teddy-bears’ picnic. All your dreams can come true in life and you find that you can still feel like absolute roadkill 99.999% of the time.
Everybody hates Courtney, but do you really think she’s having fun? I wouldn’t want her life for A N Y T H I N G.
Welcome back, Patrick. Just sent you an email.
atdnext @ 166
Ahab to think about that
“The Most Evil Men and Women in History (a little light reading before bed)”
Well, I read surgical textbooks with color plates.
atdnext @ 140
OK, so maybe I should have revised that last sentence. ; )
Still, I’ve been thinking about history today…
Are we destined to keep repeating it?
Or can we break the vicious cycle of violence?
Can we restore our democratic republic…
Or are we destined to the fate of a decadent empire?
Damn that Napoleon…
He started all this trouble for me today!
oops, mod(s) – sorry about the Ishm*el repeat, if indeed that’s what triggers the filters.
1:36am
Gotta snooze.
See yaz.
atdnext @ 157
spewed a cat out of my lap…
buenas noches, egregious
Great post, T-Rex, even if it did quote me!
Loved the graphic. Too cool.
As much as I’d love to bash big oil-ski, my read on Yukos is different. As I understand it from the press, Litvinenko was supplying documents to the former Yukos owners to help them implicate the Putin government in illegal activities involving the takeover. Seems to me they would want him alive to see what else he could dig up.
egregious @ 173
Good night, egregious. : )
TRex @ 161
She’s a top.
TRex @ 167
I met her once too and found her to be very arrogant and dismissive of everyone in the room. This was before Kurt died and at the apex of Hole’s fame. She came into the club I worked in and since I was in charge of VIPs I got the job of making sure the Grey Goose didn’t stop flowing to her and her party.
You can tell a lot about a person and how they truly are in situations like that. I would say 90% of celebrities I’ve met were very cool, warm people like you and I who do not consider themselves special. Courtney Love fell into the 10% category who do feel entitled to special treatment and inevitably end up post-fame lamenting their fall and acting like martyrs.
The life she has provided for her daughter Francis Bean has been tragic. Her behavior as a human being has been deficient and I cannot feel empathy towads her because of her actions which are her own. She made her bed and now she has to lay in it. Having fun? Certainly not, but neither is Francis Bean who didn’t ask for a mother the world knows has issues.
R J Hillhouse @ 176
You know, you mentioned that in your email and I smacked my forehead. For some reason, I had it in my head that he was supplying the British government with dirt on both the Kremlin and Yukos, which was why they wanted him rubbed out.
See? It’s that urge to overcomplicate things. Gets me every time.
I’ll send you the graphic as a jpeg.
DKos diarist surmises that spy-guy poloniumed himself:
punaise @ 180
Sometimes I think the Dkos motto ought to be “If it makes no sense it must be true”.
Snipped from TRex’s post: “the cadaver is still highly radioactive”=GWBush. Great post and thread tonight. Thanks for an informative and interesting read.
surmises that spy-guy poloniumed himself
“six drops of the essence of terror
five drops of sinister sauce
…
whoops, too much”
I don’t think this can get much more complicated.
My understanding is that the British gov’t now has the docs that he gave to the former Yukos execs who are now living in the West in exile (or in prison in Russia.)
As for him offing himself, that needs no comment other than no one in their right mind would do it in such a miserable way.
You’re absolutely right that oil is involved, but strangely enough, they seem to be the good guys this time, more or less.
Punaise, the FSB does have more effective and subtle means at its disposal. This could’ve been much more subtle had it not been so badly bungled. But they have been slipping of late. Their attempt on Yushchenko was also poorly executed, namely the guy lived.
–
I didn’t read all of the comments, so can you help catch me up with the theory linking Courtney to Litvinenko?
That’s got to be a good one. ;)
Well, there was this sparkly white powder on the table, and next thing you know…
punaise @ 183
Crap. Vodka in the big glasses. Polonium in the little glasses.
RJ Hillhouse: the Courtney Love thing was an aside:
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @
160
Ha! Better contact Scotland Yard!
R J Hillhouse @ 185
thanks for the follow up. that’s not my theory, I just saw it over at DKos and dragged it over here.
“But that’s completely counter-intuitive!”
“Heh. Exactly.”
I’ve noticed an uptick of diarists at dkos in recent months who tend to propigate theories formulated in their own asses and flung onto the front page via like minded diarists pumping it despite no factual evidence to support their assertions. Maybe some of the MSM have taken out diaries over there?
TRex, have you been hanging out at washingtonmonthly.com? someone using the name trex is posting comments over there.
…
didn’t think so.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 192
the fifth column of the fourth estate?
Nope. Not I. (Said the bird.)
Bloody hell, it’s COLD in my house.
Or did he?
One of the many “bumbling” aspects as I see it was that Litvinenko’s demise was to be a tad bit faster.
I think the assasins kinda expected him to keel over in a day or two at most rather than lingering for 3 weeks. Someone didn’t get the dosage right.
Of course, I’m still trying to figure out how they expected to get away with all the collateral radioactive poisonings for folks that came into contact with Litvinenko.
Didn’t think it was yours. Pretty whacky theory.
Like most everyone else, the DailyKos diarist overinflated Putin’s KGB background. He was never in powerful positions and wasn’t particularly distinguished. His last major posting in the First Directorate was to Dresden, East Germany’s version of Siberia.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 191
Oh my god – there are more than usual? The diary function at Dkos is empowering, but it’s like a bunch of 16-year-olds being given the keys to daddy’s car: look how fast i can make it go!
There has to be some list of math problems or logic questions people should have to solve before they’re allowed to post. it might not make it better, but at least it would slow it down.
Patrick 4/4 @ 199
So you two have been following the pie wars…
Oops, I meant have you been following the early primary coverage on DKos?
In all fairness, I think it’s premature to jump to any conclusions here. Yes, using polonium seems a bit wacky on the surface, but, on other hand, it’s an incredibly handy substance since tit doesn’t show up in airport toxin detectors, etc, and KGB has a long history of wacky assassinations. Maybe this guy did it to himself, maybe that Italian dude did it to him, maybe any number of people in Russian intelligence, who stood to lose from whatever this guy had on them, did it, maybe enemies of Putin did it to discredit Putin, maybe Putin did do it. History tell us that in the wonderful world of Russian spookdom, any of these possibilities are just as possible.
Nothing of course changes what the Economist mag pointed out, the week BEFORE this incident.. that Russia is now a potentially (and probably increasingly) dangerous country that’s very much short on the rule of law.
I’m not sure there is a solution to the downside of a diary system like Dkos. For every Georgia10 or Kos there is a conspiracy theorist or 9/11 Truth advocate waiting to vomit some new set of crap that goes far to discredit the Netroots movement. It’s almost like its an organized effort at times, which of course is itself a baseless accusation so I refrain from officially asserting it. What do you do?
R J Hillhouse @ 198
Howdy here PJ!
So how did Putin, of relatively low-caste KGB status, get to be the El Presidente?
I suppose just like here the “front man” ain’t always the one pulling the strings.
So who is really the Deadeye Cheney behind the throne in Mother Russia?
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @
112
Y’know, when I was a little kid, I had books about space stations, going to the moon, a huge model of a nuclear power station, etc.
Time to put away childish things. I love cutting edge stuff as much as the next guy, but we have plenty of problems here on earth about which we are determined to look the other way.
Here’s a hard fact. Government funding for R&D is limited. And where that money goes determines where the talent goes. If we put it into nuclear weapons, the defense industry, putting a base on the moon (and I’ve seen, first-hand, how that money is distributed), it doesn’t go to AIDS research, energy independence stuff, etc.
Here’s another hard realization. The bullshit Bush was spouting about bases on the moon and trips to Mars is meant to disguise one thing and one thing only–the Air Force wants to put up some very heavy shit, metaphorically and literally, into orbit for their “Total Spectrum Dominance” program, which, frankly and simply, is to weaponize space (thus destroying yet another international treaty). When they’re talking about putting the “Rods of God” into orbit, you’re talking about throw weight we don’t yet have. Using NASA money for moon bases and trips to Mars is simply a way to hide the development of rockets to do the defense stuff.
We are very seriously in debt to major foreign powers and the situation grows worse daily, because we’re spending way too much on fanciful ideas now.
I simply have to ask–is this, at this time, a worthy use of resources?
cool: scarecrow’s front page FDL post today gets listed at the Daou Report
(scroll down a bit, on the left)
atdnext @199
and
Fini Finitoobz! @201
I follow the fairly blatant axe-grinding as little as possible these days.
Dkos is like Bughouse Square used to be in Chicago. Anybody, from the unknown but brilliant polemicist to the guy with imaginary bugs crawling all over him could get up and vent.
It’s amazing, valuable, infuriating and it gives me a headache.
And the orange has to go.
montag @ 204
I think Junya’s rant of “fight ‘em over there so we don’t have to fight ‘em here” is another lost cause in his mind and he’s thinkin’ that the
bunkerranch in Paraquay ain’t far enough away.The preznit is so desperate for a good-news/feel-good diversion now, he’d happily embrace (and throw money at) a moon-base, if he felt it could give his bankrupt WH a lift. Let’s not let him do it, please.
Mad Dogs @
206
montag @ 203
Awwwww you’re no fun. I reluctantly agree with you that priorities on Terra Firma do take priority for goverment spending. I do however think there are enough commercial interests in a lunar outpost to enable financing a lunar base.
Zero gravity manufacturing, helium 3 production, solar energy production for use on Earth, and most of all tourism could all self finance a base on the moon. This is not childish stuff, private spaceflight is beginning to occur, 20 years from now it will be much bigger and more common to be able to take a orbital cruise or even a lunar orbit on a private spacecraft. The next step will be commercial space vehicles that can haul the massive tonnage of supplies to and cargo from a lunar outpost.
An international consortium of governments and private interests could get it done while also maintaining fiscal strength to address more pressing priorities on our home planet. It’s just a matter of willingness to take those steps into the future that will inevitably have to come in order to solve some of the issues we have on Earth.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 202
Promote good diaries like this one and avoid diaries like this one, just asking for a pie fight!
atdnext @ 210
I answered you both earlier at @206 – but i must have typed something that triggered the mystery mods.
Dkos is both great and horrible, but the horrible gives me a raging headache.
Hey, Mad Dog.
Putin didn’t side with the rest of his KGB commrades–the old guard– during the coup attempt in August–either 1990 or 1991 against Gorbachev. (Happened a few days after I’d left from spending several months there, just can’t remember the year at the moment.)
He caught Yeltsin’s attention then. Yeltsin, the loveable drunk, pulled him in to his government where, among other posts, he became the first civilian head of the FSB. That’s when he really consolidated his powerbase.
Been fun tonight folks, but the bed is calling to me. Peace firepups!
johnSwifty @
142
Where did Beria come in, in your book? Or did he? He’s always given me nightmares.
I think I read Solzhenitsyn or some writer at a very impressionable time and I shudder to hear “Beria” and “Lubyanka Prison.” Brr.
later, Finito…
R J Hillhouse @
212
91 – a couple of weeks before my son was born. One of those things that burns in the memory.
Sleep the sleep of the just FFT!
Good night, FFT. : )
R J Hillhouse – nice blog you have there. I’ll be sure to visit it again.
Just home from a GREAT rehearsal. I’ve only had time to breeze through the comments, so I may have missed something.
So the theory is that Courtney Love poisoned Litvinenko, or what…?
Ed*ard Teller @ 220
Just drove him to it…
Patrick 4/4 @ 210
It’s funny… A good example of both would be David Sirota’s recent diary on Obama
. He had some legitimate criticism of Obama in there…Then his head heated up…
Still, his writing was NADA compared to the flames being thrown in the comments section…
I was there to see it, and boy did DKos catch on fire that night!
R J Hillhouse @ 211
Ok, now the memory is coming back. Thanks RJ!
Thanks, Suzanne. It’s been fun, thought there are some fine lines to walk, given the subject matter. I started it after finishing my next novel on the outsourcing of intelligence and the military (comes out next May). The extent of this is rather shocking and no one was focusing upon it despite the national security implications.
(And by extent of outsourcing, I mean the majority of the CIA’s staff now is made up of contractors. They do everything from running agents on.)
Come visit any time.
atdnext @ 222
Yep. Perfect. 1131 comments – it took about 5 to go completely off the rails.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 208
Okay, point by point. Commercial interests in moon bases. There will be none unless serious government support is involved. And, whether the government or the private sector puts money into the effort, it diverts human and financial resources from pressing problems here on terra firma. Do you know what’s on the moon? Mostly basaltic rock. We proved that, trip after trip to the moon.
Point two. Commercialization. Zero gravity manufacturing. Remember Jake Garn? Oh, yeah, zero-g electrophoresis would revolutionalize the pharmaceutical industry. Has one single pharmaceutical company put a nickel into funding such a commercial enterprise themselves? No.
Helium 3 production. From what, and for what earthly purpose? For fusion? Here’s a sad fact about fusion research. Most of the money for it was used for accelerators and computer programs to model fusion nuclear weapons when the underground testing ban went into place. This was reported fifteen years ago, not to mention the associated costs.
Solar energy production for use on Earth. This has been posited for years, and it’s completely unnecessary. All cost/benefit analysis shows it to be useless. All energy from such has to be transmitted in ways which are harmful to us here on earth–by microwave, principally. Even miniscule variations in wave aiming (influenced by cosmic winds) produces huge variations in beam location on the ground. No sale.
And most of all tourism could all self finance a base on the moon. This is the craziest one of all. How many rich people are there who want to go to the moon? The throw weight cost is prohibitive. Yes, the Russians found some clown to offset their costs to the space station, for what, $20 million? You’ve got airlines going under because jet fuel in bulk is up to $1.70. Don’t expect tourism to pay for any moon base… at least not in the next thousand years.
This is not childish stuff, private spaceflight is beginning to occur, 20 years from now it will be much bigger and more common to be able to take a orbital cruise or even a lunar orbit on a private spacecraft. The next step will be commercial space vehicles that can haul the massive tonnage of supplies to and cargo from a lunar outpost.
Twenty years from now, or, more specifically, forty years from now, the world will be sweltering, the oceans will be dead, the US economy (upon which so many of your plans depend) will be decimated because we didn’t find ways to circumvent the depletion of stored energy from the sun–hydrocarbon fuels. Africa, from which so many of the rare elements we need for the exotic tasks you describe originate, will be in social and political chaos because we didn’t pay attention to human costs. By then, we will have expended everything we have to buy the weapons necessary to control a world thrown into chaos by severe shortages of everything from food to water to energy.
You’re offering a world from which only the wealthy can escape….
Mad Dogs @
50
HEAR, HEAR!Splendid Egregious – thank you for all that you do and your splendid spirit!
Time for me to hibernate. TRex, thank you for yet another fine bit of writing. This story resonates with me on so many elements – the crime bit (natch), the mystery, the politics, the security issues, I could go on.
The mere fact that the radioactive material was smuggled undetected into another country and then used is very worrysome.
Thank you for front paging this again.
Good night all.
And remember – that’s only a night light glowing over on the other side of the room…
Yes, good night, everyone!
I should just put down my laptop and go to sleep now! : )
later, folks. I’ll be shuffling off, too.
Thank *you*, Suzanne.
This story is fascinating to me, too. Maybe one day we’ll know the truth.
Ultimately, I think that it probably was the FSB. Still, though, every time I think that, a voice in my head says, “Well, yeah, but what if…?”
AH, well. Good night, firepuppies! Everybody sleep tight. See you tomorrow night.
OT, but interesting, nonetheless, Newsweek’s editorial on the end of Bolton:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16…../newsweek/
They basic document, cogently, the unremitting horror story of his tenure at the UN, saying that he accomplishing absolutely nothing positive in his tenure there, and severely undermined US interests by alienating even our closest allies (even the UK, they point out, has started to vote against us on issues where used to abstain, as a courtesy).
You’re a fantastic group. Thanks for your hospitality.
Good night, all.
Can’t sleep. Sleep cycle all out of whack again, must be the full moon.
Watch for Larisa Alexandrovna to say something concrete on the subject of Litvinenko’s death. I trust her opinion and her instincts on this matter.
Who is Jon Stafford? He’s the DKos diarist (with a userid under 10K) linked above in regards to a post on the Litvinenko story; appears to have some knowledge of history (suspect he’s an educator with background in this field). But his rationale sucks. I’d go so far as to compare his rationale to bashing Valerie Plame. Try this exercise for yourself, see what I mean: whereever he bashes Litvinenko’s role as a KGB counterintelligence officer but a desk jockey, think about the bashing that Plame received, minimizing her role with the CIA. Certainly rips apart the defense of Putin for me, knowing that the leadership of a country could do just as ours did to Plame, but worse if minimizing a dissident was not the only intention.
As egregious pointed out previously, these are lives we are talking about. The question in my mind is whose lives were intended to be impacted, and how severely? Litvinenko’s and Scaramella’s spouses have been impacted, receiving secondary or tertiary exposures from physical contact. But was Scaramella an intended hit or a secondary exposure, received in the presence of a primary exposure? It is not at all clear to me why so many outlets have commented on the degree of Scaramella’s exposure and possible mortality, but little followup on this in any outlet.
And why a 30-day dose versus a 5-day dose? Worries about detection? Desire to put enough space and time between point of exposure and death…or time and space between death and other related events? Intention to cast doubt on the source of the Po-210, since a 5-day dose might be more traceable?
To carry the analogy further — neutralized deskjockey counterintel officer, that is — what other assets connected to this officer have been affected? Was Gaidar an asset or no?
Note, too, that British coverage has increasing removed mention of Berezovsky, and failed to note that a “friend” of Litvinenko may be in Berezovsky’s employ, or that Berezovsky has control of disinfo resources. Coverage also increasingly omits any possibility that the Litvinenko assassination was connected to the assassination of journalist Anna Politkovskaya, or to any stories that Scaramella may have reported. But public concerns about Po-210 exposure helps widen the disconnects, possibly intended.
Frustrating; there is so much more here than meets the eye. And now off to bed, since I have to be up in a couple of hours.
maybe Litvinenko isn’t dead?
Hunt for Red October style… how do you get a bunch of people to want to leave a nuclear submarine?… how to you get the Russians to stop looking for their missing submarine?
I raise this because it makes a better spy story.
Guess I don’t really believe it, but I’d like to. Sealed coffin and all.
Levity anyone?
http://tinyurl.com/y2u5s6
SOS! RIGHT WING MASS COLLISION AT TAKEOVER OF GERMAN KIRCH MEDIA
Latest group to join takeover battle is Turkish Dogan biddin 3 bio euros
German Kirch (German for church)got 3 tv stations. It was bought by US Saban. Saban obviously wants to sell because this is the right output of the change in the media business in the 80s. There seems to be politcal pressure on Saban. Kirch media was founded in the 80s by Mr Kirch in the southeastern corner of Germany somewhere in Bavaria. It reminds too much of Borat (Im from Kazachstan) or lets say Aserbaidshan
After German Springer was blocked by state run monopoly control, famous Italian nazi Berlusconi made a bid. He suffered a stroke. The pope lately visitted Turkey. He obviously invited somebody to join the party.
strangly enuf no investors from dubya ah dubai yet
I want Bush to issue a statement about this case, just so I can hear how he pronounces “polonium”.
Frank Probst @ 238
I can guess… “po-po-po-ponymium.”
Good morning, all. Running a bit late here where it’s COLD — 33 degrees. (Well, for us that’s cold!) I wonder if my tomatoes will make it…
Today’s NYT columnists, from behind the firewall:
http://select.nytimes.com/2006…..amp;emc=th
Thomas Edsall, “Risk and Reward.”
http://select.nytimes.com/2006…..amp;emc=th
Nicholas Kristof, “Cut and Walk.”
Mornin’ All!
baby sloth
I’m going to post this again when the next thread gets posted, this is THE BEST
http://folksongsofthefarrightw…..npost.com/
MY GAWD you HAVE to watch that…never any spoof better…never ever
Has anyone here taken a closer look at the influence of William Lash III?
perris @ 244
LOL
I’ve noticed that oddly timed stories seem to be more pertinent to events at the time when seen in retrospect. The timing of the following breaking story (at the time) was within a few days of the suspected poisoning. That site had been up and active since March 06
perris – more satire for ya:
Lil’ Bush “Hot Dog” Pilot
Lil’ Bush “Evolution” Episode
Lil’ Bush “Nuked” Episode
CNN – re: Gates nomination – “It’s fair to say this is going to be a slam dunk”
bush – “bob gates will make a fine sec of def”
“he’s gonna do an excellent job for us”
twolf1 @ 249
HOLD ONE SECOND
we have to get memebers of congress to ask gates if he ever heard of the PNA FRIGGIN C
if he has we have to get him to DENOUNCE everyone in it for confirmation
if he did not hear about the PNA FRIGGIN C, THAT IS OUR CHANCE TO EDUCATE AMERICA HIM, CONGRESS AND THE REST OF AMERICA
by educating him, we get him to denoucne the military priniciples AND THE PEOPLE THAT SUBSCRIBED TO THEIR MORONIC ‘PLAN”.
THIS IS AN EXCELLANT OPORTUNITY and we had better not waste it
perris @ 251
a bit more on this
if he DOESN’T renounce the PNA FRIGGIN C, THEN HE IS ON BOARD WITH ATTACKING IRAN
plain and simple, get him to renounce the REDICULOUS frasternity AND THE MORONS THAT SUBSCRIPE to their maniacal plan for conquering the entire planet
Here’s the wikipedia article on Robert Gates in case anyone needs background info.
twolf1 – He’ll do a fine job because he knows where the bodies are and can keep them covered up. He did the PR tour in the MSM to say that Stargate had come to an end after so many years. He sat on the board of SAIC that contracted the SRI, so why wouldn’t he be the one for the job? Somebody has the Democrats by the balls, tiny that they are, and they’re squeezing.
….oh yeah…and good morning.
new thread
mornin’ rumi. It will be a huge disappointment, after being newly empowered, to see the Dems go back to their wimpy ways. Maybe they will surprise us?
twolf1 @ 256
We can count on Sen Leahy to not be “diddlin’ himself” as previously suggested by Dick. Oh no,…he’ll come out swinging on this one.
New thread, gang — Scarecrow is in da house. :)
newspaperbrat–
Thank you. I need encouragement as emotional fuel. Your kindness helps me put my armor on and go back out there.
So heckovajob Gates is gonna take over for heckuva job Rummy- so that heckovajob Condi will have another top performer to hobnob with.
I mean really- who gives a shit…Does anyone think that there’s a human out there who Clusterfuck would nominate who would make anything BETTER in Iraq? Hell no- we’re gonna get another weiner wanker..
I don’t know which is worse: Putin did it or Putin didn’t do it. I’ve been reading just about everything I can click to the past few weeks ever since this story broke.
The “nothing to get upset about” tone the Brits are using is breathtaking. Can you imagine what it would be like if there was a hysteric at Number 10? The grave, new, reality of what is unfolding over there should make us all stop in our tracks.
Free speech in Great Britain? Not if you’re talking about the Irish Republican Army. Then, you’d bettter watch what you say.
My original thought was a frame-up by former Yukos oligarchs to hurt/embarrass Putin by screwing British/Western-Russia relations but with more thought, as you offer above, it doesn’t really make much sense. I couldn’t believe it was Putin acting through the Russian security apparatus – they would have used a simple method like a bullet to the head or a cut throat. Radioactive poisoning is just too…much.
Perhaps it was a rogue security agent or three who were acting on their own behalf in fear that Litvinenko would, in his fight against Putin (and in the service of the murdered Russian reporter), “out” them as a side effect of his efforts. They don’t need to worry so much about how it was done…though the how of this is extraordinary.
T: I would suggest that you check all of Putin’s comments in regards to the murder; how well do they jibe with your Yukos theory?