From a new article in Vanity Fair on Mark Foley:
In mid-October, Fordham says, he learned that the Speaker's office was trying "to throw me under a bus." There were leaks to the press, he says, suggesting that he had tried to block a page-board investigation of Foley. As there never was an investigation to block, he found this accusation unsettling. "I was trying to be the loyal Republican and do this behind closed doors with the F.B.I. and the ethics committee in a way that probably wouldn't have hurt them—until after the election," says Fordham. His shoulders sag. He is very pale, clearly tired—of everything. "It's a pretty significant move for a staffer to go behind his boss's back," he says. "You know, it's not like we had a tip line to the courts, where you can call about congressmen who behave inappropriately to staffers," he says wearily.
I've got to believe that the willingness to sacrifice everything on the altar of election politics in the way outlined in the article finally simply got too wedded in people's minds with the GOP, to the point that the Republicans just sort of thought people were okay with it. It must've come as quite the shock to find that the rolls of those willing to overlook stuff like this were a bit shorter than they'd banked upon. As Sidney Blumenthal notes, white evangelical turnout was only slightly lower than it was in 2004 (75% down to 72%), but a third of them voted for Democrats this year. While I'm sure that was in no small part due to the horror of finding the GOP filled with gays, the naked acknowledgment of a GOP political agenda with only one item on it — electoral success — probably started to become a bit corrossive on the gullet of even the most dedicated kook-aid chugger.
Foley sounds like a bit of a sad case who melted down at just the wrong time for the GOP, wingnut conspiracy theories notwithstanding.
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eeeeewwww! FDL?
Jane!!!
FDL!!!
sorry. pic gave me whiplash. whew…
the price of a zero…
How fitting that in-frame, but out of focus is Ashcroft. He’s probably thinking, “Well, at least I can’t see his tits”.
Let the Eagle Sore.
Jo Fish @ 3
He’s probably thinking, “Uhhhh…that yummie mouth…”.
gak!
Wow, what a transition Ms. Jane.
hmmmm, sad case? Foley? All those who covered for him?
Sorry. No Sale here.
The young folks he preyed upon – indeed sad.
Foley & enablers – scum.
“just the wrong time for the GOP” – priceless!
yeesh – i miss Amb. Wilson and get THIS?!?!
It is important (even more so hereabout) to distinguish between gays and sick fscks like Foley.
One wouldn’t want hetrosexuality to be linked with Ed Gein either.
Where’s Denny Hastert?
twolf1 @ 7
if you listen carefully, you can hear him wheezing behind the drapes.
twolf1 @ 8
He’s going to spend more time coaching High School wrestling.
Mack @ 7
Or lampshades — that ever necessary tool of every good decorator. NEVER, conflate them with Gein!
twolf1 @ 8
Under a bus somewhere…
You asked a couple of threads back who Les is.
here you go, and he is indeed an irritant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_Kinsolving
I’ve got to believe that the willingness to sacrifice everything on the altar of election politics…
And in the House, specifically ethics for K Street cash (see Delay putting Hastert in as Speaker, followed by Hastert gutting the ethics committee).
John Boehner’s election as Minority Leader for the Republicans proves they haven’t changed a thing.
if he has a remaining synaptic sequence firing, he’s with his attorney(s)
angie @
5
%^)
Just got here, unfortunately, and I must say that’s some escort Amb. Wilson has on either side!
Thanks to him, and our hosts, for that thread, which I will enjoy reading this evening.
This caught my eye (tsf bold)
Did Fordham mean pages when he wearily said staffers?
Is there more to Foleygate yet to come, perhaps with regard to staffers? As usual, I am eagerly awaiting snailmail delivery of VFair, while reading web excerpts.
Or maybe God just took notice.
Corruption as an issue hit the white evangelicals hard – “Wait a minute . . .Isn’t it the godless Dems who are supposed to be the liars, cheats, and frauds?” Once they began to realize that they had been lied to by “their own,” they began to look around for other options. Thank goodness the Dems were able to give them people of integrity to vote for.
Along with corruption, I think that some of the theocons are starting to wake up to the fact that the big business end of the republican party is using the theocons for their own ends.
Nobody likes being used.
thanks for the info angie
I wonder if Foley will make it into Comedy Central’s new show?
Denny McBratwurst is going to grace SW Wisconsin with his presence in retirement, since he’s recently purchased over 350 acres in Crawford County. He wants to build a home to which he can retire. Of course he purchased it with his ill-gotten gains from the sale of his land in Illinois.
I have to admit grudgingly that he’s got good taste–it’s a lovely part of the state.
TPM re Haster on the Foley matter.
TeddySF,
here’s all 8 pages of the VF article – just don’t be dumb like me and click on the ‘8′ instead of the ‘>’
http://www.vanityfair.com/poli…..oley200701
LOL. Especially stunning considering the history of bratwurst in that fine state.
oh my!
(you’re welcome, twolf1.)
I think that ‘1/3 of evangelicals voted Democratic’ story has been debunked. The exit polls showed that among evangelicals who thought corruption was the #1 issue, 1/3 voted Democratic. I think the overall percentage was 20% give or take a point.
I believe it was Chris Bowers of MyDD who debunked this story but I’m not sure.
Hey, that reminds me, we haven’t seen that Ethics Committee report, have we? I guess that’s another thing Republicans were too busy sending resumes to K Street to accomplish in this Congress…
crosses her fingers, closes eyes, and clutches her magic dragon blogging light . . .
oh please, oh please, let it be that Boehner claimed “no prior knowledge” to the Ethics Committee
also suspect some fired up folks in Missouri will be very interested in this article
twolf1 @
20
Mmmmmmm, satire is succulent!
I’m inclined to think that the general stink of corruption and self-serving behavior just became too much for a portion of the GOP’s base. The was also the war in Iraq, of course, which these Republicans have done nothing to stop or ameliorate. Many of us who usually vote Democratic feel that way – there are just times when you need to throw the bums out no matter which party they belong to. For the evangelical vote to shift as it did, approximately 5 to 10 percent of them had to change their minds about who should be running the country. Given the circumstances, it’s sad that there weren’t more.
My guess is that the closet homosexuals in the Republican party didn’t make much difference to these folks. I think they’re bright enough to realize that there will be some folks in any organization who aren’t quite with the program. I wouldn’t vote Republican because a few Democrats turned out to be war profiteers.
UPDATE: Peterr makes a good point above – the fact that they were being used by the pro-business Republicans certainly became clear this year. Never discount spite as an additional motive when there’s lots of other motive around already.
Redshift @ 26
It’s even worse than that. In addition to sending out resumes, this crowd has decided to devote their final energies to the anti-abortion Kabuki theater which once served them so well (but now? not so much, IMO).
It’s like they’re on auto-pilot, unwilling to see that the notion of “family values” Republicanism has just been drubbed at the polls. That’s OK by me, if they want to advertise how far from reality they’re sailing.
Well, it seems the ISG report and the Ethics report both got confabulated and mixed up and now they are trying to sift thru the pages.
johnSwifty @ 28
Lil’ Bush “Hot Dog” Pilot
there are a couple more of ‘em on youtube. Do a search for “Amp’d Mobile – Lil’ Bush”
OMG what a cool thread that last one was. Pity to be at work when all the fun happens…
Man you chicks rock my world!
angie @ 24
I must admit I stole the McBratwurst part from Stephanie Miller, but it’s so fitting. When she and her guys get going on their imitation of him I have to laugh, even though they’re gently insulting my adopted state!
Catching up on the day’s news (some of have to get some actual work done), I am compelled to quote this comment from back on the Bolton thread . . .
sticky @ 25
As a supposed headline from Bolton’s resignation, I’ve been laughing all day about it.
twolf1 @ 32
Thanks much!
angie @ 31
Scooter? Is that you?
Apparently goopers held their base just fine- and their base turned out pretty well for a midterm election- their problem was the indies- who voted against goopers in droves–and gaggles- and herds.
angie @ 31
Hmmmm. Sounds like there’s a new academic research study on the horizon –
Toward a New Historicism– Confabulation as the Republican Methodology for Historical Understanding
“historicism”
Great shot Mrs. K- how’re ya doin?
martha @ 34
Oh isn’t Stephanie a hoot. And worry not for your adopted state (though we started this thread with a terrible Ed Gein reference); I’ve been to visit the fine liberal institutions in Madison, Wisconsin many, many times. Liberalism is alive and WELL. On many occasions, we actually needed to have a bratwurst to help wash down the beer, bless them.
uncle toby @
35
jeeze…something’s up with a reference like that
…ha!
Mrs. K8 @ 39– brilliant!
OT– 106 bodies found in Baghdad with evidence of torture.
cnn.
rwcole @ 40
Hey, RW! Good to see you.
In spite of drowning in a sea of all manner of uncompleted chores and time-consuming health-related activities, I’m keeping my chin up, decidedly.
I can only do what I can do — and that’ll just have to do, for now. Meantime, I pray that progress will change the lay of the land (for me personally and for our household — but also for this beloved nation!!!) –
and how are YOU, dear heart? Is life treating you well?
Mrs. K–Yep I’m doin fine- got another year older saturday- but if I hold my head up it doesn’t show…I’m still in an afterglow from the election and the stupidity of the president is now more amusing than terrifying. Not bad. Good ta see ya up to your old tricks.
well, a very happy belated birthday to you rwcole.
(Mrs. Dan Senor and Brokaw on msnbc now– teensy applause amongst the students a Bowling Green U. for support of the war, despite Snowballs assertion otherwise today. Brokaw seems brokenhearted.)
loyal Republican ! As opposed to . . . a loyal American and devoted public servant?
OT — Egads. Larry Kudlow foaming at the mouth on CNBC about poor little Walrus getting the heave-ho.
He Does have P.J. Crowley on from Center of American Progress to rebut, though, who points out that Voinovich and other Repugs had a problem with Bolton. (Who the hell is Crowley?)
Now he has doofus Jed Babbin (former underSecDef) on, who says this is a great opportunity for the POTUS to select somebody else unelectable for a recess appointment. Apparently doofus Babbin hasn’t caught up with the Reid Senate schedule that prevents recess appointments.
The buzz that Kudlow is whining about is George Mitchell as UN Ambassador. Huh? Since when would this particular administration EVER entertain a Democratic Party member for any position?
Chatter. Idle chatter and bullsh*t. Churning to buy time, that’s all this is.
Leach comes up as a candidate and Crowley says that Leach could get bipartisan support — which means the Kudlow immediate changes the subject and asks Babbin if Gingrich is a suitable candidate for UN role. Babbin actually says, “No way!”, in light of Gingrich’s bullsh*t about the First Amendment.
Gads. They none of them have an answer among the Repugs.
rwcole @ 45
Happy Birthday rwcole & Mrs. K!!!!!!!!!!
angie –
Thanks! {{{takes a bow}}}
That news you bring of tortured Iraqi corpses breaks my heart, again. I can scarcely imagine what it would be like to be in Baghdad now.
My prayer is for justice for those who have been wronged in such unimaginably awful ways. Preferably with some goodly chunk of that justice occurring in THIS life, rather than having to wait for it all on Judgement Day.
“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for justice…”
angie at 1:39 pm
Thank you so much for the background on Les.
newspaperbrat @ 49
Ditto!
rwcole @ 45
It’s good to know that the majority of the voting public is NOT totally batshit crazy, isn’t it? I tend to call this “the Schiavo effect,” in honor of the very first moment of daylight dawning on the notion of sanity (i.e., the public reaction to that fiasco of a GOP gambit).
Thankee angie–thankee brat.
How on earth can we say Foley “melted down at the wrong time”? The man was a classic Republican predator for his entire career. Economically, socially, morally, nothing but a self-serving, self-hating closeted moral moron with no goal other than his own advancement.
What is there about what he did that was particularly “at the wrong time” when he was ALWAYS like this, doing it ALL THE TIME?
Now I have to pop out again almost as soon as I popped in. :-(
Time to wrestle myself into that snug wetsuit and paddle around the pool again.
{{{{…backing away, humming “happy birthday, DEAR RW, happy birdie, 2 ewes…}}}}
Oh jeepers, they are at Fordham U, not Bowling Green.
you are welcome, John Casper.
Thankee John
Mrs. K8 @ 56
Take care of yourself. Good to “see” you.
And hippo, birdie, two ewes both.
OT — agh. Now Kudlow features McCaffrey.
I hope like hell anybody in the investment class is commuting right now and not catching these two stupid windbags.
I’ve a question for y’all. There will be a ceremonial “surrendering of the gavel” when the new Congress begins. Who will be tasked to give it up? Hastert? Will he show?
“surrendering of the gavel”
“outa my cold dead hands” says Denny the House
CQ: Outgoing Specter will ‘hold gavel tightly’ until bitter end
According to Kevin Drum (hat-tip to a TPM post from November 11) the notion that 1/3 of the white evangelical vote switched its allegiances because of corruption is a myth. Drum notes that the 2004 exit poll results Drum show 25% of white evangelicals voted for Dems that year, while in 2006 28% did. Josh Marshall’s suggestion in the above mentioned post is that the wording of an election night AP story is to blame for this misconception:
.
So at most 74% of evangelicals named corruption as a decisive issue, and that is assuming that all 28% of white evangelicals who voted for Democrats named corruption as the decisive issue, and not say the war in Iraq, health care, or the economy. Not that I’m not glad for those votes, but if only 3% changed their mind when faced with Republican corruption there’s an awful lot of work still to be done
See what happens when all you FDLers get cooped up and mind your manners for a couple of hours in the presence of the distinguished Ambassador?
You get Ashcroft thinkin’ about Foley’s tits, Denny McBratwurst wheezing behind the drapes, and Mrs. K8 with the rimshot coining chimpco’s legacy strategery of historicism.
It’s like all the kids piling out of the station wagon into grandma’s yard.
OT — like a train wreck, can’t tear myself away.
Babbin now badmouthing BakerIII. Eeewww. This, following Kudlow bashing Sen. Levin in a backhanded way and bashing the ISG in a direct way.
Wonder if Kudlow is in the SPOTLIGHT list, and if we would have a post any time soon that we could cram down this moron’s throat? Hmm.
edit: Oy. Kudlow still thinks we can “win” by sheer American dint of will. What an effin’ maroon; who’d trust this decrepit curmudgeonly geezer with money?
LimaBN @ 2:14 pm (#55)
Any time someone makes a claim like this, they’re almost invariably wrong. The first thing you have to ask in such situations is, “What’s normal?”. In this case, what’s normal is that there’s been a fairly even split in the electoral strength of the two major parties for the last decade or so. This scandal might have tipped the balance for the presidential race in either 2000 or 2004, had it come out then. I think 2002 was a case of the Democrats stepping on their own private parts, but maybe even then it could have helped them keep one house of congress or the other.
I wanna see a gooper teevee show with “one of each”-
One snake handler, One “alms fer the rich”, One libertarian, one neo con- and one realist….
Two out of three falls- no time limit..
Let the games begin!!
Rayne @ 2:28 pm (#66)
I’ll summon my mental powers to see if I can help … Nope. Nothing doing. Guess I need more coffee.
2002? That was the mortal fear of terrorists election…people didn’t care about anything else but bein protected from A-rabs.
By the way- those of you who were here for Wilson- he seemed to be saying that the US needs ta stay in I-Rock for the time being but change the role of the troops..Is that what the rest of you heard?
rwcole @ 70
Largely, I think, because Democratic politicians were reluctant to speak out on the issue. It’s one thing to have fear whipped into people by one side, it’s a whole nuther thing when the other side keeps silent. Democrats didn’t stand for anything at the time, or so it seemed. They voted for the AUMF and the “Patriot” Act so they could go home and not be bothered by all those national defense issues. That’s how they stepped on themselves.
via Raw Story:
Cujo359 @ 72
true.
very sadly true, except for the very few and unlistened to who were marginalized as “unpatriotic”.
Cujo
Don’t know- I think dems were fucked from the get go in 2002.. Clusterfuck was pullin down JARs in the eighties or somethin- and sayin that he needed a gooper congress to save america from the terrorists..until the fear disappated- it was pretty hard to gain any traction..
If you weren’t one of the terrified- then it didn’t seem like a big hurdle- but for most of america- it was THE ISSUE.
rwcole @ 2:35 pm (#71)
I think so, although the role he envisioned seems to be the one they’d want to be involved in already if they could. It may even be too late for mediation, training, and logistical support. However, those are clearly the only roles left at which they could be at all effective. It’s way past the time when they could run the place themselves or defeat the militias.
Stopped by here long enough to read through Ambassador Wilson’s answers to the great questions posed. Great questions, fantastic answers. Thanks, Jane, Redd and Pach, for setting that up!
later…gotta go back to dealing with 350 term papers from my 200-person lecture class (sheesh!!).
Wilson also asked a question…somethin like “Ask yourself who benefits from the total destruction of Iraq as a state an you’ll know who’s behind this”
Israel?
I just got an email from Jerry McNerney.
He is demonstrating again that he is a man of character and integrity.
Jerry is doing the right thing by helping Christine Jennings with her election challenge.
Here’s the email:
—-
Many of you have heard me tell the story of how I used my home equity to pay for the re-count of my write-in campaign against Richard Pombo in 2004. That recount resulted in me winning the Democratic nomination by ONE vote.
Well, it has been nearly four weeks since the midterm elections and we all have had a chance to rest, but there is still a race yet to be decided that reminds me of the importance of one vote. And it’s also an unfortunate example of the importance of election integrity. Democrat Christine Jennings is locked in a tough battle to determine the next representative of Florida’s 13th Congressional district and she needs our help making sure every vote counts.
CAN YOU CONTRIBUTE NOW TO MAKE SURE EVERY VOTE COUNTS?
In Christine’s home of Sarasota County, election officials have maintained that an astounding 18,000 voters simply did not vote in her Congressional race – - a 14% “undervote” that is six times higher than the undervote rate in the rest of the district. You don’t need a Ph.D. in Math to know this is a statistical aberration, and combined with numerous reports of voters who said they voted for Jennings but didn’t see this choice registered on their voting summary, makes it clear that a new election or re- vote is the only solution.
PLEASE HELP CHRISTINE BY DONATING NOW!
Jennings needs to pay for a legal team, voting machine experts, and maintain a full staff while they work to ensure that every vote is counted. They also must prepare to mount a strong campaign if a judge orders a re-vote. These efforts will cost money, an estimated $1,000,000. No winner has been declared yet, and at this point, anything can happen.
PLEASE HELP CHRISTINE MAKE SURE THAT EVERY VOTE COUNTS!
The FL-13 Recount Fund is a joint account supported by the Florida Democratic Party. That means you are able to make a personal donation of any amount up to $12,100. Your donation will not count toward the federal limit. Any amount you can give today will be truly appreciated — and it will help protect our fundamental right to a free and fair election. You can contribute by donating securely online at: http:// http://www.actblue.com/page/recount.
Jerry McNerney
Congressman-Elect CA-11
rwcole @
71
The priorities I heard were:
1. Negotiate with the Middle East about the power vacuum resulting from the destruction of Iraq.
2. Negotiate with the Middle East about the power vacuum resulting from the destruction of Iraq.
3. Negotiate with the Middle East about the power vacuum resulting from the destruction of Iraq.
Whether our troops stay, how many stay, and in what capacity they stay, has to be mediated through those negotiations.
In addition, here’s Ambassador Wilson in his own words at 11:22
Ambassador Wilson is calling on Bush to go back to basics, about troop deployments
Ed*ard Teller @ 77
Before ya go… ‘ere!
It’ll help
:-)
rwcole @ 78
Actually, I think it would be the corporations, investment groups, think-tanks and organizations represented by the Iraq Study Group.
John- Yeah- he wants to change the role of the troops and move em out of harm’s way but not out of the country- right?
rwcole @ 75
As we’ve observed, though, Presidential JARs have little effect on congressional elections. They help, but not by a lot. Usually, it’s down to, “do I want this guy representing me?”
I can’t speak for the sort of minds that were terrified in 2002, because I quite literally never understood them. But without a strong voice from the other side advocating calm and reason, they certainly weren’t going to change their minds. Many of us who weren’t terrified were very frustrated about this for that reason. Seemingly, no one in government spoke for us. All we had was Jon Stewart, and he was a warmup act for a show featuring foulmouthed puppets.
My basic point is that the Democrats did worse because they refused to be that voice, not that they would inevitably have triumphed if they hadn’t.
rwcole @ 78
Fragmented state will align Iraqi sunnis with Saudi Arabia, Shiite majority with Iran, who gets the Kurds? Not looking good for the Kurds again, is it? Which fragmented segment of the former state of Iraq will be the new bogeyman for Israel and the US? (The Shiites, of course.)
rwcole @ 78
Ambassador Wilson on Israel at 11:12.
Readers wanting more context may want to consult the context of Ambassador Wilson’s comments.
to Jeffrey at 61
if my recollection of 94 is correct. Boehner will surrender gavel to Speaker Pelosi.
Being a sentimental slob though, I recall the last night of the lame duck Speaker Foley had Rep. Bob Michel, the former minority leader who had spent his whole career in the minority, go up and preside. It was a classy, sweet moment.
Even Democrats on the committee are saying Gates is a shoo-in barring an unexpected disclosure. But the likelihood of such a disclosure seems nil, with Gates the sole witness at his hearing Tuesday. Still, Rep. Rush Holt, D-N.J., who was an analyst in the State Department’s intelligence bureau and now sits on the House Intelligence Committee, has called Gates’ nomination ”deeply troubling” and appealed for hearings that are “thorough and probing.”
Gates has primarily two things going for him, which hardly suffice to justify confirmation:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miami…..158060.htm
Politics. Yuk.
rwcole @ 83
My take was that whatever we do, has to be decided with the Middle East as a whole. Swopa had a good comment about how difficult this will be.
I think you raise an important point, howeve, if, Bush moves our forces out of their current police/unsupported urban combat role on the streets of Baghdad, that would certainly buy time with the American public, because we assume it would end US casualties. If we do this, however, it would seem to me we could easily cut our current force levels in half.
That electoral wins are the primary mover of Republican politics is still routinely accepted. Mark Shields (the designated liberal commentator) last week in the weekly roundup on the NewsHour stated that Republicans are desperate to get rid of Iraq as a campaign issue before the ‘08 election cycle begins. That may be, but no one and certainly not Shields questioned why Republican chances should determine or be allowed to determine our policy in Iraq. Apparently having Americans get blown up in off election years is OK, but if there is an election, especially a Presidential one, then something must be done. Shields never fails to disappoint me in his unerring ability to miss the larger point or leave that all important “next” question unasked.
I fail to see how the destruction of any state in the Middle East will be beneficial. Be it Israel or Iran or any other country. If one doesn’t believe this, then look at the destruction of Iraq. I don’t sense any benefits in this case.
88 Joe Wilson says:
December 4th, 2006 at 11:50 am
Margot @ 40
Welcome, Ambassador Wilson, thank you for all you’ve done for our country.
My question relates to an interview with Robert Fisk:
“The real question I ask myself is: who are these people who are trying to provoke the civil war?”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info /article12137.htm
Does a civil war in Iraq need provoking? Or does it do that on its own? This statement by Fisk surprised me.
I haven’t seen the interview but Fisk is very knowledgeable. There are no doubt efforts to provoke even greater violence. Ask who benefits from the utter collapse of Iraq as a nation state and work back from there.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 88
At this point, even Mark Foley would have a shot at being confirmed as Secretary of Defense. The atmosphere in the Senate, and the country, is anyone but Rumsfeld.
rw, more from Ambassador Wilson on Israel:
Joe Wilson at 12:29 pm *
[…]
Bold is mine.
Inhofe’s last stand.
Senate environment committee chairman James Inhofe (R-OK) “will hold his last hearing as chairman Wednesday to highlight media coverage of global warming,” National Journal reports. “Inhofe has criticized news outlets for their coverage of global warming, which he believes is a hoax.” The last time Inhofe challenged the media, it didn’t go so well.
John- Yeah he was pretty clear with the “the road to peace is through Jerusalem” stuff- which seems just right to me.
John
Wilson’s nuber 88 which I reposted above was the source of the Question- I posted above..
Inhofe is an embarrassment for many Oklahomans.
Inhofe is an embarassment for most humans- even those of us who have low expectations for the race.
The neglect of the “road map” that Condi, boosh et al sang songs of praises for in anticipation of a wonderful “legacy” is beyond reprehensible.
I blame the leaders in the region, too– but we and the Brits bear more shame, imho.
The Balfour thingie and subsequent unconditional support for one over the other has made life so sad for so many.
John Casper @ 89
Redeployment to super bases looks a lot like the neocon permanent basing argument revisited. The rationale given for them at the time was that:
1) We could reduce troop levels making it easier to sell a continuing American presence in Iraq to Iraqis.
2) This would also reduce casualties making it easier to sell a permanent American presence to the American public.
3) We would be able to project power from these bases both in country and regionally.
The more things change . . .
“There are no doubt efforts to provoke even greater violence. Ask who benefits from the utter collapse of Iraq as a nation state and work back from there. “
(Joe Wilson)
So who benefits?
John Casper @
86
Please read this interview with Robert Fisk from March 2006; it is a good source of even more context:
http://www.informationclearing…..e12137.htm
The solution to the Palestinian ‘question’ is a two state solution. I cannot find it within myself to figure out just why it was right (and it was right) to provide Israel a homeland in 1948, but it is not the right thing to do now for the Palestinian people.
John- I actually wasn’t tryin to raise a new point- but merely to understand what Wilson was saying.
punaise @ 73
…because when your ratings are sagging, the first thing you want to try is sucking up to the same people you’ve been connected to at the hip for six years.
No, I don’t know whether I said that about Bush or Fox. Does it really matter?
Oklahoma kiddo @
88
I forwarded that link to Senator Feinstein at her contact page. Democrats need to get other witnesses and more days of hearings on Gates. Or they are stuck with him for the duration!
Jane, Christy, et al: Just popping in to voice a quick thanks for arranging the forum with Ambassador Wilson. His comments are always refreshingly blunt when he visits here. I lurked in the background, although I can’t say happily, because the whole topic of what to do in Iraq is so depressing.
The problem with “the road to peace in the Middle East runs through Jerusalem” is that road has been running there for the last 40 years. I see nothing on either side of the aisle that suggests that anyone, and certainly not a majority, is suddenly going to decide to travel it. Our excessive support of Israel is unhealthy for both countries and prevents us from moving the region toward a general peace settlement that would benefit everyone.
Benefits accrued from the destruction of a nation and its peoples are temporal. And will come back to haunt.
Take another example. Who stood to benefit most from the untimely disbanding of the regular Iraqi army after the regular troops had been promised employment if they surrendered peacefully?
I would say that it was the neoconservative connected global businesses that stood to benefit most and they did. The PMCs, mercenaries, defense contractors, security/intel contractors, the Carlyles, Steeles, Triple Cnopy, Bechtel…the oilfield contractors…all of the same ones that got us there in the first place.
When the question of “who stands to benefit the most” is asked, I’d say political ideology has less to do with it than money does.
Who will the Iraqis likely side with first? Those that bring electricity, clean water, sewage service…they can provide their own security locally if we get out of their way.
Heh. Still chuckling over “kook-aid chugger”.
Kook.
Aid.
What a great brand waiting to happen!
Katulis is a solid observer of the Iraq situation and I agree with his assessment though I think there are a number of conflitual subdivisions within his divisions. The role of Iran in the region going forward is what should be of primordial concern. With the rise of the Shia in Iraq, Shia aspirations will be fueled throughout the gulf where there are significant populations and you can assume the Iranians will be supportive. We actually do have strategic interests in the region and a withdrawal may threaten those interests.
Joe Wilson (Number 64)
blergh.
Tucker has Prager on.
puke.
agreed, Hugh at 109.
and rumi at 111.
Hugh @ 109
Yeah, I agree it’s bleak; but, there’s this guy named Arafat who isn’t there anymore. You’re ideas on the subject are pretty well researched, how do you think the possibility of better leadership on the Palestinian side will affect the circumstance?
We MUST be even handed when it comes to Israel and Palestine. We have not really done this since Camp David and President Carter. Semitic peoples (Israelis and Palestinians) have a keen sense of fairness.
Yeah, I know.
I think the neocons in Israel were as deluded as the neocons in D.C. I think the majority of Israeli’s understand that Saddam, as undeniably bad as he was, was still preferable to the current situation and its trajectory.
Saddam was the Sunni counterweight to Iran. Bush blew it up, so now we’re trying to patch together a new counterweight to Iran (to keep Saudi Arabia happy), without pissing Iran or anyone else off more than we have already done. It is, as you so rightly have always called it, a “clusterfuck” of unbelieveable proportions.
I think that the question is put the wrong way. Israel and the United States were the two countries that were supposed to benefit from the American invasion. Pre- and post- war bungling quickly turned Iraq into a major liability for both.
As for who has benefited from the war in Iraq, the answer regionally is Iran, and globally, China.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 116
and to go a bit further, Ehud Barak’s deal was anathema to the Palestinians but the CM and their pundits continue to push it as the best thing since sliced bread.
If Arafat had agreed, he would have been imprisoned (or worse) by his own people, instead of just by us and others.
new thread
Something positive for me is the fluency of the FDL debate about these issues. We as Americans are demanding more than what the MSM gives us.
The Wilson thread was infinitely more informative than MTP or other talking heads. When I get a chance, I want to Spotlight the Wilson thread to as many news outlets as I can.
how do you think the possibility of better leadership on the Palestinian side will affect the circumstance?
Not at all, since a strong leader will be summarily executed.
I mentioned on the Top 5 Bush failures list, that the only moment possible to effect a Isr/Pal solution was after 9/11. There would have been total bi-partisan support, and indeed, world support. We were all Americans then, it seems.
Not seizing that moment, was Bush’s biggest failure, IMO. And instead, the firestorm that he has left in the ME will be his legacy…
John Casper @ 117
Chalabi, Curveball, Ledeen and others have been involved with Iran behind the scenes from the very beginning. The espionage crimes were classified US policy/intel on Iran that was given to another country.
The neocons seem to traditionally provoke or support both sides of any conflict. If a goal is the covert upheaval and regime change in Iran, how in the hell can we even trust our own people to act in our best interest?
angie @ 114
blergh.
Tucker has Prager on.
puke.
Agreed
:-) even the Tuck said Prager wasn’t making any sense in his argument. …hey, Foley, DeLay, Scooter, Rove, Junior all swore on a Bible…ha!…it didn’t mean a thing I guess.
johnSwifty @ 115
That better leadership has largely remained a possibility has been part of the ongoing tragedy of the Palestinians. However, it wasn’t Arafat’s corruption that did him in with the Israelis. It was that he didn’t agree to do what they wanted him to.
This gets into the dynamic between colonizers and the colonized. To be an authentic spokesperson for the colonized, an Arafat or Hamas has to be willing to say no to the colonizer Israel. The colonizer is faced with the choice of either negotiating away its control or destroying those who will not agree to the maintenance of it. Israel’s choice to date has been clear.
This said, effective, clean, pragmatic government would, of course, be good for the Palestinians, as it would be for us.
Hugh @ 125
well said, Hugh.
…and yet when al-Maliki spoke up in such a fashion he was condemned by nearly all of our Democrat political leaders as well as by the GOP. Everyone then said he was too weak to lead the people of Iraq.
rumi @ 127
that still ticks me off to no end, rumi.
Hugh, well said is right. Compromise, not terrorism is what Israel fears most. Any strong Palestinian leader will be marginalized, or imprisoned (maybe not executed)…
rumi, this is what I meant above. the only time in recent history a President had the opportunity without being shot down by the other side, and to speak frankly (as Carter is now) about the Isr/Pal issue was right after 9/11. Bush blew it.
Hugh @
125
You make too mush sense on the matter. Is your background in Middle Eastern study?
Anyway; six years not only lost, but spent going in a backwards slide, that just couldn’t have helped. It is depressing and just another thing to lay at the feet of these know-all authoritarians who, in fact, seem to know nothing.
kemo @ 129
yup,yup,yup…and it’s not the only time that Jr inexplicably pissed away a spontaneous chance at tremendous success. I honestly didn’t know enough to be this pissed off at his 2000 (s)election back when it happened. I only knew what I saw on the cable “news” and read in traditional media. After 9/11, nothing about the political environment felt right, nothing he said, nothing he did. The runup to Iraq made even less sense and that’s when I jumped into Google with every spare second of my life. I had a fatal split in my home due to my questioning and my wife turning deeper into an Evangelical church. The Bush support was rationalized a thousand ways fundamentally religiously and my skepticism was deemed intolerable.
I couldn’t/can’t accept Biblical inerrancy but I believe in faith/spirituality. I considered the religious claims that Jr was actually chosen, by divine intervention and human deception, and put it with ‘all things are possible’. From there, I saw him at that crucial crossroads at 9/11 and he followed the wrong (god)light; he pursued the one he shined for himself. Then we couldn’t stop the invasion, BUT, hardly any casualties made me think that maybe my doubt was misplaced and that some good could be realized for the Iraqi’s peace and life. Then, his command chose to disband the common soldiers-family men, heads of household, in order to chase the wrong (god) ideals, profits, ego, pride or whatever.
Each clusterfuck that held a potential light of healing was turned into another subsequent clusterfuck. I then came to the conclusion that maybe he was chosen and was too stupid to know what to do…or he’s just plain evil.
rumi @
131
I think you have all the right pieces. He was chosen, because he was too stupid to know what to do, by evil people.
I hope your domestic relationships are better now that he has been shown as a charlatan and not some agent of the lord.
johnSwifty @
132
hey, thanks. Yeah, I came to the same conclusion. My life is much better without the self imposed burden of being the conscience for others’ denial….free choice, free will and all that.
Thanks for listening.
Hi rumi,
I too was oblivious to politics prior to 9/11, and afterwards became obsessed with the cast of characters in the adminisration via Google. Alas, it took a better man than Bush to rise to the level of the office he held, and to do the noble thing. But, as I came to realize (angrily) in 2002, he was no match for history.
These are trying times, and I’m sorry to hear about your home situation. Over Thanksgiving, there I was supporting Rangel’s call for the draft, to my father’s shock and dismay. Nothing I said will get us out of there faster…
Peace to you, and thanks for your comments.
Thanks kemo
We seem to be a special breed that’s set apart from others in our own lives. It identifies the principles that can’t be compromised even if those ideals benefit others instead of ourselves.
pass the peace