
A reader has written in to clear up some of the mystery around polonium-210 for us.
Firstly, Po210 does not require a reactor to be made, in fact, it doesn’t need to be made at all as it is a decay project of natural (not depleted or enriched) U238. I could, given an hour and a hand written procedure, actually teach you how to chemically separate Po from Uranium. I used to do it for a living.
Secondly, Po is a very very strange element. It is a chemical analog of Oxygen, but is a metalloid (somewhat like mercury) It has very low vaporization points and other strange properties. When it gets into the body, it targets oxygen bearing materials, particularly the blood and bone marrow. Because of size differences, it does not cross the alveoli wall in the lungs as well as oxygen does.
Thirdly, Po not only because of chemistry but because of it being radioactive, has a very strange way of moving places. Here is a story, believe it if you want. The early atomic weapons used Po210 in detonators. That Po was separated at a place called Mound in New York state, and then shipped to Los Alamos to be made into 'urchin' detonators. The Po would be separated, put into a steel container about the size of a pop can, which was then welded shut. The steel can would be picked up with tongs, and dipped into molten lead. The whole was then allowed to cool, the tongs were cut off, and the whole placed into another can, sealed, placed into a box and shipped.
The box would arrive at Los Alamos and half the Po210 would be gone….
They would find the rest all over the box, the can, the truck it came in, the driver. Polonium is the most aggressive moving radioactive isotope. To get Livitnikov to inhale this stuff would be very easy, just get some anywhere on his body and he would be internally contaminated. When I used to work with this isotope, it would move against air currents, it could not be contained, in fact, we had to have a ridiculous number of safety procedures in place to deal with the threat of loss of containment and even then we worried. We worked with this stuff only in glove boxes, and then in full protective gear besides. 100mgrams placed on his lapel would contaminate everything he touched and anyone he saw. A point to remember is that the button man is probably also very very ill, or dead by now too…
First, I have to say that this kind of information just makes my toes curl with geeky delight. It really is sort of out of my area, being an infectious disease nerd, so to me atomic science is all exotic and shit.
(Uh. Mah. Gawd. I just used the phrase "infectious disease nerd".)
This point might explain the presence of radiation in the planes:
A point to remember is that the button man is probably also very very ill, or dead by now too…
Once contaminated, a person apparently excretes radiation in their body wastes, so the traces of radioactivity in the BA planes could well have been found in the lavatories and sanitary equipment.
Reader MarkusQ indicates that I may be totally flying blind in terms of nanotech:
You are way off base on the nanotechnology connection. Colloidal chemistry, maybe. But if someone had molecular nanotechnology (bottom up) there would be a heck of a lot better ways to use it to kill somebody than this.
–MarkusQ
You think? John Long seemed to think it was an option in the Salon article. It's a little spooky in what it means in terms of weapons technology, but it could have really interesting implications for the future of nuclear medicine, that is, if the technology ever becomes public and is used for less nefarious purposes.
But anyway, this is my theory as it stands: I believe the polonium was inhaled through a loaded pack of cigarettes, which would get it past the gut-transfer barrier, although it doesn't account for the extreme, rapid lethality. People have died of polonium-210 inhalation before, but from what I understand, it's a gradual, slow-moving death. Medical specialists, feel free to sound off in the comments, but it usually manifests in the form of leukemia, doesn't it? And all of this hinges on Litvinenko being a smoker. If he wasn't, then we're back to oral ingestion. It would make sense, though, that the guy he met for lunch could have been exposed through second-hand smoke, as well as Litvinenko's wife.
And yes, all you righteous non-smokers may now chime in about the dangers of second-hand smoke.
Grumble.
UPDATE: In the comments we were just discussing that if someone other than the Russian government is doing this, they're not just sending a signal to the Kremlin that says, "We are framing you for these murders," they're also saying, "We have access to your nuclear chemicals."
Or someone's nuclear chemicals. Otherwise, why not use ricin again or just a gun?




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TRex…
whew!
All hail Polonius Rex!
fitz
Free speech
Justice
and other assorted archaic values.
If this is getting on y’all’s nerves, tell me. I’m just kind of fascinated with this stuff.
This is getting weird. I don’t know, but if I wanted to off someone, it seems it would be a bit simpler just to use a gun. Why use such an exotic method like polonium?
Balrog! You’re still here. Yay!
TRex, I’ve listed to this story and read bits in the paper, but these two posts of yours have me intrigued.
I mean, why not just use an untraceable gun or a more common lethal poison? Why THIS chemical element? What’s the message that’s being sent? I feel like John LeCarre or Charles McCarry or Alan Furst should be plotting the book as we type.
Oh please keep it up TRex. It is truly fascinating.
TRex !!
TRex, I am fascinated with it.
I grew up near Los Alamos, during the Cold War.
This is very interesting to me.
TRex goes all “Science Friday” on us…
martha @ 8
Yeah, something about this story is really cold. There’s some kind of kabuki at work here, or they would have just found him shot in an alley. Which again raises the question for me of why the Putin administration would risk this kind of wildly public execution.
Somebody is sending somebody a major message.
button man?
button man
“Infectious disease nerd”–that’s me. I work in public health.
At present my work takes me to a country where such intrigues are the daily bread.
Really it’s very simple. Problem? Kill your enemy. Problem solved.
Our paradigm–Problem? Ask the housepet media to write some new soviet propaganda vilifying liberals. Problem solved.
Or kill some people in other countries to make yourself look powerful.
It’s so easy when you have all the power, as long as you don’t care about the lives of real human beings.
/rant…for now. I’ll be back.
Stratfor theorizes that it si more of a Gang That Couldn’t Shoot Straight Special Ops thing.
I have a co-worker from Russia whose tales of systemic incompetence and corruption never fail to astound me.
This tale fits right in.
TRex…I read somewhere (your previous post?) that there’s quite an argument going on among spies and those who think they know Putin that it’s NOT him, but someone who wants to make him look very very bad. That kind of fits actually. He’s one cold SOB and it would take this kind of one-up move to be able to say, at minimum, “I’m checking your king” Mr. President…
thanks TSF
TRex @ 5
Nerves? Please! We’re all starting to glow.
It’s possible the Russians aren’t involved, or that they, along with others, are involved. Did the victim perhaps perp this onto himself?
I’ve been trying to remember the PBS show, possibly Frontline, about the russian killed (also in London) via umbrella with ricin(?). In that case, it would have been just as easy to use a knife or gun.
I don’t think it would have been a smart move by Putin. (Although events in the last remaining super power the past years have really showed the important role of stupidity in history – something Marxists tend to overlook.)
Rogue element within Russian security services (siloviky?) makes more sense.
egregious @ 16
egregious, you know more about Russia than any of us, what does your intuition say about Putin’s culpability. Is he that cold or is someone sending him a message?
Another thing that occurred to me is that if someone is doing this to frame the Russian government, they’re also saying, “I have access to your nuclear chemicals.”
I may update the post to include that possibility.
egregious @ 7
Thanks to you and others. And a hit of Celexa every morning.
Balrog @
3
with soundtrack by Polonius Monk
Balrog @ 25
I’m a Zoloft man myself.
Glad you’re back.
TRex @ 5
If Sarin is getting on your nerves, try a Polonium Enema. EvilDrPuma (aka Uncle Ernie) at your service!
Celexa, Zoloft?
TRex @ 27
Me too. And way to show your flexibility and ‘mile-wide’ writing talents to those maroons who would pigeon-hole you.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 29
Selective Seratonin Uptake Inhibitors. Prozac to the MSM.
the umbrella murder
Interesting stuff, but frightening.
Are we getting worse, or are we just better informed about how bad it is? Or mayby it’s just me getting old and cynical.
It used to be that the stories of assassinations/murders carried out at the direction of heads of state were reserved for fiction/mysteries or “uncivilized” nations, but of course, we never did those things, because we are civilized and we would never vote for a President who was a murderer, right?
But today it seems to be commonly accepted that heads of state, including our own President, give orders to have people murdered. Lots of people. If you don’t believe that, think about the order Bush gave at the beginning of the war in Iraq to bomb the various buildings where Saddam was thought to be hiding, even though our people knew there were lots of other innocent people around. Not only was it accepted that one head of state could murder another head of state, but it was okay to murder anyone who just happened to be in the area. If you can murder a head of state, why squirm about murdering other people, like all those Pakistanis in the same building where the al-Qaeda’s #2 (or #559) was supposed to be meeting. After that, we go after weddings and funerals.
So yeah, Trex, this is really disturbing, but not for the reason you suggested.
Yesterday, I went to United Nuclear because they had been in the news as a source that was selling Polonium 210 over the net. What I found was a disclaimer that said you would need 15,000 doses of their isotope at a cost of nearly 1 millon dollars to equal the dose received by the Russian spy. Then they said something I thought was really stupid:
In comparison, Amercium-241 is a similar toxic Alpha radiation emitter.
Instead of a half life of 138 days like Polonium-210 has, it has a half life of over 450 years. It is far more toxic – and there is 10 times more than the ‘exempt quantity’ amount in every smoke detector in your home.
So now you have to worry about being murdered by whatever is in your smoke detector.
Jim Montague formerly known as “brainfaht”
Balrog @ 25
We have a little subgroup of fdl for those of us with emotional/mental illness. Wellbutrin here, and a bunch of stuff in the past. Welcome to the club. Much much more at my humble blog where politics and mental health become intertwined.
Madsen was speculating yesterday that Russian (dis)organized crime figures via Poland. egregious #16 Yes, soccer games go ‘boom’.
Not at all, TRex. It’s morbidly fascinating. Besides, the MSM won’t ask what we want to know.
Unfortunately there’s the truth, minus what they know, minus what they want us to know, minus what we get and understand, times disinformation-squared. There is a TON of information on this which we are just not privvy to. So this could drag on for years.
BTW: Anderson Cooper will have a nerfball investigative special on this on Moday at 10:00pm, and will have Sanjay Gupta providing softball medical information on the poisoning as well. All in all, I’d opt for the NewsHour on PBS, but now you know.
Po 210 is an Alpha emitter. Normal radition that most people run into is Gamma. This is the stuff that lead shielding is used for. Neutron shields are materials that contain high Hydrocarbon content – Polyethelene, polypropylene, etc. As the polonium breaks down into its daughter products, Gamma is given off. That’s why the lead shielding.
Radiation damges the human body by ionization. In terms of cell tissue that would be like stirring the inside of the cell with a stick. Can you say scrambled eggs?
While true that alpha particles cannot penetrate more than a piece of paper, when placed next to living tissue their affect in terms of ionization potential is 20 times that of Gamma.
I am not that familiar with Polonium, but based the article your reader wrote, containing the element itself would be a major problem. This stuff is tremendously lethal.
Not sure if this was covered in the earlier thread, but this is an extreme example of what a “dirty bomb” would do, meaning that the threat of a dirty bomb is more fear-mongering than anything. No need to actually use a bomb to spread radioactivity.
The idea of a dirty bomb is that a conventional explosion is used to disperse radioactive material over the blast area. It’s not a nuclear explosion in any sense of the word. The contamination depends on the type of radioactive material and the length of exposure. Polonium has to be the nastiest radioactive element I’ve ever read about, because of its similarity to mercury. With something like Cobalt-60 you’d have to carry it around for a bit to get a lethal dose. (This happened to a Chinese farming family a number of years ago, who found some Cobalt-60 in their well and kept it because it looked nice. Speculation is the material was from a failed satellite.)
Anyway, it seems this Cold War-esque spy versus spy use of Polonium is a much scarier proposition than some bogeyman dirty bomb scenario. All of these contaminated areas the British are finding shows how uncontrollable Polonium is.
Shame on the Bush government for fostering terror instead of fighting it.
Margot @
32
Thanks, Margot!
That was exactly the link I needed for my update to the post. You read my mind.
Lest anyone get freaked about this new poison, my guess is the risk is equivalent or less than:
a) Cyanide
b) Hemlock
c) Rat Poison
d) Hostess Twinkies
e) Reading ‘Unhinged’
So it’s a new poison. So what? If anyone wanted you dead they’d have stopped at Target to pick up the goods.
Not sure why they chose Polonium; it seems counter productive to dose a pack of butts with it before running away so you yourself doesn’t die at the crime scene.
We always just brushed a little hash oil on our ciggies. And we always got better.
Balrog @ 31
Dear fdl readers, if you need these meds, take them with your head held up high. There is no more shame in taking psyc meds than taking diabetes meds.
Would anyone get away with saying, oh, you don’t need that insulin! Just try to go without. Or pray and you won’t need your insulin. Or you are depending too much on your insulin. I have diabetics in the family so this analogy works for me.
TRex I am not ignoring your question. Am thinking. Always hated those timed tests in school, despite doing well. Much better to take the time to get it right.
from first Polonuium thread:
Oklahoma kiddo @
41
alpha mail
It’s looking more like the spooks over at http://www.TheSpyWhoBilledMe.com were right, that it was a bungled job. They just posted an update from tomorrow morning’s London Telegraph quoting a senior government source saying, “the picture of the killers that was emerging was closer to bungling assassins than cool James Bond-type killers.”
punaise @ 43
BOOOOOOOOOOOO!!
I have a B.S. in Nuclear Engineering with a focus on Radiation Health Physics. Still, I don’t know squat about Polonium, and find this thread to be quite fascinating. Thanks for writing about this T-Rex.
How in the hell does the Polonium penetrate the steel container? Creepy creepy stuff. And why did the assassain choose polonium of all of the possible Mickeys that they could have slipped Litvinenko.
egregious @ 7
If I may provide a warning to all of US, never ever ever move from the SSRIs to the Benzo class of drugs. Damn near killed me this summer.
PS Heard about the Xanax diet?
Take four in the morning and food falls out of your mouth all day.
oops. Off to mod. I said Xa**x.
TRex @ 40
That reminds me,
PeteCO says:
December 1st, 2006 at 3:53 pm *
TRex says “If the Russian government wanted to take down an enemy, don’t you think they would do it in some less public and spectacular way? Is this a message to other enemies of the Putin regime?”
Someone is sending someone a very clear message. It’s not like we haven’t seen this before. Anyone here remember Giorgi Markov?
” September 7, 1978 (the birthday of Todor Zhivkov), Markov walked across Waterloo Bridge, which crosses the River Thames, and was waiting at a bus stop on the other side, when he was jabbed in the leg by a man holding an umbrella. The man apologized and walked away. Markov would later tell doctors that the man had spoken in a foreign accent. The event is recalled as the Umbrella Murder.
Markov recalled feeling a stinging pain from where he had been hit by the umbrella tip. When he arrived at work at the BBC World Service offices he noticed a small red pimple had formed and the pain from being jabbed had not gone away. He told at least one of his colleagues at the BBC about this incident. That evening he developed a high fever and was admitted to hospital where he died three days later.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Mark ov
Balrog @ 47
Everybody refresh.
And I second that e-motion about the benzo class.
I find your two posts fascinating, TRex.
This was a bit of news that I caught sorta out of the corner of my eye, but didn’t have time to pursue. Thanks for doing that. Also, it’s great that a reader weighed in with further info, which you highlighted in your post. And, that others have added their own info.
Please don’t apologize, TRex- all this learnin’ stuff, and research, is what makes it great to be at FDL. Very thought provoking.
So what if yours or anyones speculations are wrong? I doubt we’ll ever know the truth… but still, I’ve learned a lot that I didn’t know before… millionaires in Moscow eg. so at least next time I read a story about this, I will be coming to it with a more informed viewpoint.
dannyM @ 45
cause they could and had access to it and what better way to spread terror and intrigue?
guns and bombs are so ordinary. ;(
Professor Plum did it in the billiard room with the ice pick.
Ok weighing in now. Yes a message is being sent. Of course the deed could be done in complete silence. The rightness or wrongness of this act beyond the obvious I will not argue here.
Consider how we would feel if we had a collapse of our government and society in general and nearly everybody lived in truly desperate poverty for many years. Then it became known that 8 people had taken over nearly all the natural resources of our country. Then the FBI and CIA tried to restore the previous balance of power. That’s kind of what we are seeing. ymmv
And btw 1/8 of the national wealth can buy a lot of PR in Washington. Just saying.
Ditto here.
Olbermann went with it as his second story and your coverage is better.
I really liked your question to egregious, does the evidence point to Putin in her opinion? If not him, who?
This is real life CSI on the geopolitical stage.
Also on display is the staggering talent that FDL routinely attracts. You got it started and then at least one reader, MarkusQ, extended all of our understanding, because you posted his email. It reminds me of when we we heard DeadEye shot Harry. Suddenly, all these bird hunters, immanentize, for example started telling us about hunting in TX. I had no idea FDL had so many card carrying members of the NRA. When Alan Simpson, (member of the Iraq Slow-Learners Group) said it was Harry’s fault that DeadEye shot him in the face, FDL readers knew first from the threads, that was
bullshitwrong.was Cheney in London recently?
and that’s SSRI (not SSUI)
punaise @ 56
ROFLMAO
Mad Dogs @
20
in the dark
I believe it was Dick Cheney in the face with the pistol.
punaise @ 55
Not if he’s got any sense.
egregious @ 54
egregious, if you have the time or the inclination, would the blogs in Russia even discuss this, or would that be too dangerous?
The 1978 Markov incident reminds me of something I read at the time (or saw in a film?) that talked about using compressed air in an umbrella or a small blowgun hidden in the sleeve, to fire a needle-thin dart with some deadly poison on the tip. The dart would feel like a small insect bite, the dart would fall out and probably never be seen by the victim, and the poison would be in the body to do it’s work. Creepy.
And I agree that the terror this death would cause to anyone else on the hit list would shut more than a few voices right up.
egregious, I truly admire the work you do for the disenfranchised all over and in Russia, but Putin is former KGB and that country destroyed much of Afghanistan and her people long ago…
that trail of tears and blood leads to Moscow.
Cold: yes of course. Otherwise wouldn’t have any power. People WANT this in a leader. They wouldn’t be so positive about him otherwise.
Framing the government: no.
More on the poisoning of secondary subjects in this Mercury News article.
it was Scooter
(Mary, Queen of Scoots)
angie, there are many sides to this story. I will just leave it at that.
TRex @
5
Honestly, it’s fuckin scary but keep on wid it. Knowledge is power, man.
Remember when the President Elect of Ukraine (Vicotr Yushchenko) got poisoned by dioxin a few years back. He recovered, but was disfigured in the face and skin.
What was that all about? Did they purposely try to not-quite kill him? Why not a lethal Mickey instead of a half-assed dose?
marksb @ 62
There was an episode of Poirot that used such a blowgun, the victim thinking it was a bee sting.
OT Egregious, have you heard of HR?
Let’s see if Sir Clusterfuck the Paranoid quits huggin Russians….
Hey Clusterfuck- we need an update on Pootie poot’s soul- how’s it hangin?
About three weeks ago I saw the PBS Secrets of the Dead: Umbrella Assassin. Quite interesting. Lots of similarities between Markov’s assassination and Litvinenko’s.
angie @ 64
And we have destroyed what’s left of Afghanistan and Iraq. Yay us??
Let’s hope the next generation can get it right. We’ve supremely f*cked up.
By the way- has anyone seen an article or teevee show FAVORABLE to Clusterfuck lately? I don’t mean somethin that says- “He ain’t quite as stupid as his critics make him out ta be”-
I mean something that actually PRAISES him? I haven’t. Maybe I just missed it.
Balrog @ 72
You will need to be more specific.
“Trail of Tears”. Many long years ago some in my family made that trip. A more apt name would be trail of shame.
egregious @ 77
http://www.healthrealization.com/
You’re welcome, TRex. ;)
Puppethead at 39,
I wonder about this. What if the North Korean government (or some other govt) were involved in this, and were trying to make it look as if Putin was to blame?
What if they wanted to warn the US and the world that this is what they could do, if they wanted to?
Can we take a poll of Poirot fans vs. Marple lovers? I adore Poirot, but Miss Marple is my favorite.
I’ve always wanted to write an Agatha Christie style mystery that takes place in south Georgia.
I would call it, “Assault and Flattery”.
JC at 62, this is below the radar of the blogs there. They are trying to reclaim their country from the depths. People are dying by the hundreds of thousands from perfectly preventable causes. People are being killed for random reasons. It’s all just how things are right now. People of good will are trying to put one foot in front of the other and just get on with their lives and hope that things will get better in the future.
egregious @ 75
yes we did do that and much more ;(
rwcole @ 76– maybe, but I don’t watch faux or listen to rush, prager, etc.
puppethead @ 74
That was the show I was trying to remember. I was thinking it was Frontline – which is why I couldn’t find it. Thank you.
Russia’s organized crime element is loaded with ex-KGB types. I haven’t read a lot about the Russian “Mafia,” but I wouldn’t be surprised if they had their version of Murder, Inc from the 1950s. The “bungled assassins” bit from Genghis @ 44 is probably right on. The umbrella murder was one of the more sensational hits but the NKVD, later KGB, loved the exotic out-of-country kind of stuff. That the gangsters have picked it up to intimidate journalists and nosy Interpol snitches is no surprise. Although from the looks of things it wasn’t a clumsy assassin so much as a rank amateur. And the button man is almost certainly toast if we now have all these bystanders glowing in the dark. Really interesting stuff, TRex, thanks. A murder mystery spy thriller. Far out.
In honor of aids- GW Clusterfuck says “ABSTINENCE is the only sure solution”
Thanks fer that Clusterfuck- now go wash yer hands an finish yer lunch- an no playin with yer food this time.
rwcole at 7:08 pm
NO, me neither.
As you probably saw, Gen. Barry McCaffrey and David (biggest leaker in DC) Gergan on Hardball were
bodyslamming Bushand only Bush for not talking with the Syrians and the Iranians.IMHO, their body language and demeanor were unlike anything I have seen before. They were clearly extremely frustrated with Clusterfuck. IMHO, he’s losing the GOP.
If my plane “crashes” then you will know that I have hit a nerve. I have tried to serve God in all possible ways and of course fail daily. But I hope the work I have done will stand the test of time.
egregious at 7:11 pm
Thanks very much.
The good news is that there isn’t much in Afghanistan to destroy- ceptin fer people that is.
Egregious, if you wanna take this offline try juddDOTbrownATcomcastDOTnet.
John- Yeah I did see it. Gergen especially seems to be at the end of his rope lately- he’s given Clusterfuck some cover up until now- but at this point he’s about convinced that Clusterfuck drove the bus into mortal danger and is pretending that he’s a tour guide…
He actually seems scared shitless about what may be about to happen- and realizes that the idiot Prince will just take two more pills and sleep til morning.
Balrog @ 91
That’s right TwistedMartini, Judd Balrog.
I still laugh about that exchange… Bp
Oklahoma kiddo @ 78
Deepest apologies Oklahoma Kiddo.
Prison Camps and the Trail of Tears, a recent diary at Kos.
May be my imagination- but aren’t there a lot less “W/Cheney 04″ bumper stickers ridin around with the SUV brigade?
Miss Marple, Hercule Poirot, Jane Tennyson & Prime Suspect are just wonderful!
Love the britcoms, too.
Especially “As Time Goes By”.
rwcole- Afghanistan really was a hauntingly beautiful country once where all people and religions (and Buddhas) were respected and cared for.
(there’s unexploited oil and gas there too, just in case dubya or cheney is reading this.)
OK kiddo– I am sorry for your ancestors.
TRex @
81
Enjoy both equally, although the blow gun one was a weak Poirot. Like Poirot because those books go out and and about in the “world” that was, more. But, like Jane for her perspicacity and nosiness. If you’re looking for a style to emulate, JM is timeless. Poirot, not so much. But, anyone would have a hard time matching the seamlessness of any Christie plot.
oh, edit p.s.- go for it, TRex!!!!!!
Even them cute little W04 things seem to be gettin scraped off at a fevered pace.
Did see a fresh one today:
“I don’t have to like Bush to love my country”
Angie- I suspect it’s still beautiful- I haven’t been there- but not many BUILDINGS- or CITIES.. What WAS there either got blown ta shit by the Russians- or blown ta shit by Clusterfuck– stone age beauty now.
rwcole @ 100
true, that. The Afghan people are the beauty now, and they are worth saving.
John Casper @ 94
The people thank you.
kiddo.
angie @ 96
Thank you.
kiddo.
TRex, I’m fascinated. You’re a damned engaging writer chameleon. Yeah, I’ll have another.
TeddySanFran, ’bout to pour a single malt.
Gotta MaCallan 15 or a Glenlivet 12. I like my doubles “up”.
If you’ve never had a single barrel bourbon, I’d join you with either a Booker’s (120 proof)or Blanton’s (93 proof). Those are better as snowcones.
Anyone else.
Go Southern Miss! I took the 5.
Genghis @ 44
Ooohhh…that’s a very funny lady! Ta for the link to a good blog!
No I’m not. I’m a theropod.
Balrog @
31
“Re-uptake,” right? Isn’t it SSRI? Don’t you want your brain chemistry to leave your Serotonin there long enough to let the nerves un-jangle?
My wife did the Zoloft. My jaw still aches from all the extra servicing necessary for the ‘normal’ nuptials. Nasty stuff, but it gave her a brain a long enough break in the grind to get her mental feet back under her. Truly scary stuff.
Yes! Hell yes. I’ve noticed it here on the northside of Atlanta. And this is the pancreas producing the bile in belly of the beast. These losers have no conviction.
We can win them over with ATTACK! ATTAACK! ATTAAACK!
For all ya’ll in the south, kick a conservative in the nuts tomorrow!
rwcole @ 95
!
T- @ 104
If you could manage a Laphroaig 12 or 15, along with a MacAllan’s anything, I’ll fall down in bliss with you.
God I love single-malt Scotch…
T- @ 104
I’m wallowing in Knob Creek, cheers!
Has anyone considered that the death and contamination in London could simply be the result of England’s legendary bad cooking?
“More paprika and less Polonium damn it- tastes like shit!”
johnSwifty @ 107
Right-o. I was so FREAKING High from them I got it wrong.
Not.
Mad Dogs @ 105
This may have to be tonight’s Late Nite.
I heard a great NPR interview with Sarah Chayes about her life in Afghanistan, bogus reporting and much more. Trying to find the link. Anyone hear that interview?
rwcole @ 111
Always go for the curry when in London. Self defense.
rwcole @ 99
Sounds like a comment from the male gay community. Or the pro-shaved coalition.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 78
Cousin o.k.–
Some of stayed behind in NC and hid in caves til it was safe. We miss those of us who were forced to go on the trail of tears. Maybe we can make things whole someday.
With love from your cousin,
And don’t miss Charles Frazier’s new book about the eastern band,
———-egregious,
g-g-g granddau of Anna Wright, eastern band, Cherokee Nation
http://www.npr.org/templates/s…..Id=5690902
Okay, the story has the link to the NPR interview with Chayes. Just listen to the first part, and you will see/hear more of the US lies about Afghanistan.
Interesting stuff … since I listen to the BBC world service every night, I’ve been hearing a lot about the mystery but they are as mystified as us. They did mention that on the BA planes (I think there are two of them?) they had specific seats cordoned off … and the reporter wondered if the authorities knew who had been in those specific seats. It sounds like they flew one of the planes back from another location with a regular load of passengers but with two or three seat sections blocked off – glad I wasn’t on *that* flight!
ok, then “you’re a damned engaging writer” therapod.
I think it’s so kewl that you prove to be so much smarter than the “humans” inside the beltway everyday.
Sarah Chayes’ interview was great, faithfulreader. She knows lots of stuff and slays the CM and Friedmans.
Here’s a link to a very good interview with her:
http://www.democracynow.org/ar…..amp;tid=25
OT Egregious, I’m serious about the HR stuff. I’d love to tell you about it.
johnSwifty @ 110
There ya go, talkin’ dirty again…
Balrog, Laphroaig is a little too mediciney for me except when I plan to have several stiff ones. It really is a fantastic scotch for the long haul, but I have to get up early for pictures tomorrow.
MaCallan 15 it is. Cheers, my friend.
Anyone else?
Sarah Chayes is amazing … wow! there’s a frontline I believe about her – worth the watch if it’s every replayed.
johnSwifty @ 107
Wellbutrin is the drug of choice if you want a med that will not interfere with the big OOOOOOOO!
Balrog @ 111
No worries, hang in there. Work with a good physician on the dosages and keep working, adjust as necessary and be overly truthful with reporting the affects so that he/she can make the most informed prescription. It worked for my wife after a ramping up and ramping back down for a year. Whatever the hell that Serotonin is, it can be brought to task. Trust yourself!
nevermind
Mary McCurnin 124 — Heh. Now that looks like a testimooooonial.
;-)
I call bullshit.
Have you made any attempt to qualify the reader who furnished the information in the main post?
Even if one is not a scientist, the first concern is raised by the reference to Mound in New York State. Mound was a DOE facility in Ohio. That can be fact checked using the google in a matter of seconds.
Though I have handled plenty of radioactive substances, I have no experience with materials such as Polonium and Uranium. Still, a number of things mentioned in the passage attributed to the reader make my bullshit alarm go off. I am however too tired to explore these in greater detail, except to say that if this person had anyting to do with how the material being shipped as described, I hope there is a legal basis to prosecute them for criminal negligence.
We bash journalists all the time for going with suspect or inaccurate information, so we should not repeat their mistakes.
I believe the Mound facility is in Ohio, not New York. I’m therefore led to wonder what other details in the reader’s account may be inaccurate.
Mary McCurnin @ 123
Now you tell me! My jaw clicks.
Is Sarah Chayes related to T- @ 122
What, you have a problem with drinking liquified peat bog? But it hurts SO good.
Macallan’s it is.
The Secret Sharer @ 129
My mound facility is in Rancho Cordova. OOOOOOOO!
The Secret Sharer @ 129
Hey, you hit this at about the same time I did. I think there is plenty else that is suspect in there, btw.
Getting here late… But…
Why not use a gun or a knife? The footage of him condemning Putin from his hospital bed is riveting. If you use a gun that’s not likely to happen.
HOWEVER… In TRex’s first post on this (thanks for both, TRex) a commenter who spoke with knowledge suggested this might be Mossad.
And to TRex’s poll on Marple vs. Poirot, I love them both. For me it depends on what mood I’m in, and whether I’m reading or watching. That being said, David Suchet is just bloody brilliant as Poirot.
wow- I am just listening again to the NPR interview with Sarah Chayes. It is worth listening to the whole thing, for anyone who wants to hear another true voice.
johnswifty, cheers. Check out the bookers when you get a chance.
It’s actually a product of the Jim Beam company, but not even in the same solar system.
My bookkeeper and her husband are long-time GOP Bush-bumper-sticker type people. Last month I voiced some snort of disdain at something Cluster said about Iraq and she jumped in to defend…and I didn’t let it go, as usual (she’s a REALLY good bookkeeper!) I pointed out within about twenty seconds the lies, the idiocy, the criminality. Just laid into it. And apologized when I took a breath. She took a breath, slumped, and told me I was right. I notice her bumper sticker is gone from her pickup.
I would love it if this country is waking up to reality. I hope the midterms showed that.
Marion in Savannah @
135
This is exactly my point @41. Like this is some new perfect murder weapon? Not.
Marion in Savannah @ 135
There’s also lot’s of speculation that the Russians are trying to pin blame on the Israelis. Imagine that- the Russian elite blaming the Jews.
Litvinenko himself said he was involved in smuggling radioactive material for the Russian secret types. Maybe they wanted it to look like he screwed up.
Marion in Savannah @ 133
Good serial characters, all. You know who I dearly wanted another story about. Ever read Umberto Eco’s Name of the Rose? That screwy Franciscan Monk detective with the Baconesque, scientific method was just my favorite ever! Why, Umberto, why no more?
Most of Clusterfuck’s support has come from people who are culturally conformist…
They’re great ta have on yer side- but if the climate starts to change- and they see the mainstream gettin out of Dodge- they’ll be the first ta throw a shovel of dirt on the grave.
(Well I mixed the shit out of that metaphore- but I’m too lazy ta fix it).
marksb @ 138
Love the typo, intentional or not!
Ok, you’re a damned lizard. Has anyone sought to prove what colors or color changing abilities the ancient lizards had? Anyone up to research that and pass it along to Christy for the cuppa thread?
I’d love it if they were fluorescent and back then the moon only reflected the low end of the visible light spectrum (blacklight).
TRex @ 106
rwcole @ 92
Oh my rwcole – completely agree with your observation. Never seen Gergen so unguarded on the air.
T- @ 135
Oh, I been there. Single batch, baby! Averaging 126 proof; takes a bit ‘o branch water, don’t she!
For Scottish island distills, I was trying a little Talisker last night (They ran out of the Glen of Levit) and it isn’t nearly so medicinal for an island dram.
OK- On the Whiskey thing- I’m too cheap to buy the stuff you guys are talkin about- but my favorites are :
Maker’s Mark
and
Jameson’s
Jameson’s is what scotch oughta be but isn’t in my opinion.
T- @ 123
Damn I wish. Can I get a rain check?
Ensure tonight, 350 calories a bottle. Yuck!! But I’m losing weight and can’t swallow anything decent, so…glug glug!
TRex @ 113
Only if you have no other story. They are not the keystone cops.
Ooh – Bush throws the Baker Study Group Cambone.
Whoever killed this guy wanted him to be able to sing for a few days. I don’t think Putin would have wanted that so I don’t think he did it. Or maybe that’s what he wants us to think…
johnSwifty @ 140
Oh, yes!! Loved the Name of the Rose. Then I got “Foucauld’s Pendulum.” Well. I have a fairly muscular vocabulary, but this sonofabitch had me going to the dictionary 12 times in the first 25 pages. And when I found that the OED didn’t have the words I chucked both the book and Mr. Eco. Too bad.
More likely the new Sec of Defense let Cambone know that his services wouldn’t be required in the new regime.
rwcole
Maker’s Mark is a great bourbon.
My fave drink with that one takes me back to my college days in Athens, ordering up Mark n’ Ginger after Mark n’ Ginger at Guyland’s.
TRex, I’m sure you know the place
Jameson’s is also a great whiskey, that’s the smoothest one to shoot and chase with a beer. The Irish get straight to the point.
rwcole @ 144
Wull, yeah, if you’re gonna pollute a nice Peruvian, organic roast or an Ethiopian arabica with something, Jameson’s is fine.
Marion in Savannah @ 149
Oh, I stuck it out; it’s the number one reason I’m so enthralled with conspiracy theories. I wonder what the vocabulary was like in the original Italian?
rwcole @ 145
Maker’s Mark?? Ever tried Woodford Reserve? Now that’s yummy! And it’s “sipping whiskey,” so a wee bit goes a great way…
rwcole @ 152
And Gates is a former member of the Baker Group. So we don’t disagree.
Marion- Not that I remember–of course there were some bourbon tasting nights in my life that are- well- a bit dim.
johnSwifty @ 154
I’ll take Jameson’s if i can’t get Bushmill’s
I rarely do fiction, but The Name of the Rose, I loved. Gave you a great idea of what Martin Luther would be up against in less than two centuries.
Bushmills- PROTESTANT WHISKEY!!!!
Hey crick/sonofslothrop!
Marion in Savannah @ 154
My dear, you truly are a Southern Belle. I suppose it’s far too fine for a sprig of mint?
rwcole @ 161
I left the Church for a reason.
Marion, you’re right. That bottle is right behind my bookers and blantons. There’s only one stiffy left and its mine. I turn it sideways so no one even notices it when they look through the cabinet.
Let me know when we get back on topic..
JohnSwifty, you obviously have a LOT more patience than I do! There are certain things I will not do, and reading a book full of words I’ve never heard of is pretty much at the top of my list. I salute you, sir!
Balrog @ 132
Aye. 12 or 18 depending on yr budget.
Jay @ 165
Better to light a candle…
TRex,
Any response to comments @128 and 129? Does this “reader” have a handle here? Or does she/he for some reason not post on his/her own?
…topic?
We have topics?
Jay @ 164
Southern Miss needs a touchdown to cover and they’re kicking a damned field goal. Shit.
egregious at 8:05 pm
LMAO.
Jameson’s is great, Bushmill’s is better, imho. (and that judgement was passed down to me by a Catholic who served in WW2 and flew thru Shannon!)
So is Laphroaig and oh, so many others that I have yet to sip that put the fire inta the “belly”.
rwcole @ 157
Been there, done that!! Do give it a try again, it’s the “special” bourbon I keep around. The “regular” bourbon is Henry McKenna, which is surprisingly good for the price.
T- @ 171
I’m shocked..SHOCKED…to discover there is gambling going on in this establishment.
Rayne @ 128
Ya, wellbutrin helps in particular to raise one’s level of motivation, and to a lesser extent general depression, without interfering with sexual function. Sez me.
Fresh hot late nite espionage thread.
Available now!
Fdl will hit 23,000,000 site visits tomorrow during my travel*. So advance congratulations.
*Inshallah/God willing.
Shit no, johnswifty, but it would have costed you a grand at the Derby this year (scroll to bottom).
johnSwifty @ 162
Marion in Savannah @ 164
Oh, I doubt it’s patience; I probably work closer to some of the organic sciences that Eco was describing.
Currently, I’m reading a similar series (or at least it puts me in that mind) by a gentleman named Neal Stephenson. It is more accessible than Eco and not nearly as dry (but still takes a fair amount of bourbon ;-)
In fact, I’m going to put the kids to bed and get to it!
Night all.
Peace, love. Out here.
angie, Shannon, Ireland? I missed something, was that a big rendevous point for bombers attacking Germans in Europe? Not a big deal, just curious.
From the Independent
via lukery
John Casper @ 180
yep. My former father-in-law flew planes then and enjoyed his very first Irish Coffee there and reproduced it for me very carefully and told me the story every holiday I spent with them.
nobody else in his family paid him much attention, though ;(
angie @ 182
Anyone with family/friends with stories about WWII, please sit down with them and record it. These first hand accounts will be only available in the “his”story books soon.
Hey folks,
Here are two links from a guy who is a medicinal chemist.
Polonium Poisoning
The Litvinenko Case: More On Polonium and Alpha Particles
From Derek Lowe. Interesting read, though I don’t know if they agree with Trex’ hypothesis.
earl
ps — I lived in Russia for four months. This anecdote tells you everything you need to know about the powerful.
The day I left, the editor of Forbes Russia was murdered by 3 assailants with AK-47s while leaving the office. His crime was writing about some of the oligarchs — the people who purchased the natural resources in sham auctions during Perestroika. Apparently this gentleman revealed the true net worth of one of them. In any case, when reporters called said oligarch to ask him about the murder, he didn’t even pretend to deny anything — he merely replied, “He should have been careful who he wrote about.”
earl
‘In Moscow there was growing consensus that the assassination was part of a power struggle between liberals in the regime and hardliners from the security services. Yulia Latynina, a leading commentator, said the polonium 210 “seems to have been left like a spy’s calling card – not to prove to the world that Russia is run by the security services, but to prove this to Putin.””
By any chance, can anyone get beyond the paywall at Moscow times and get a copy of Yulia Latynina’s entire column?
Berkeley – Table of Isotopes – 210 Po
Polonium 210 could be extracted from uranium ore or uranium mill tailings because it is in the 238Uranium series. It can also be produced by thermal neutron activation of 209Bismuth which is the last stable isotope on the table of isotopes. 210Polonium decays 100% by alpha decay to 206Pb. This decay also produces a gamma that requires lead shielding for safety.
210Po is incredibly dangerous because even a tiny mass of it is highly radioactive. Its short half life of 138 days means that an equivalent mass of it is much more radioactive than a equivalent mass of a longer lived parent such as 238Uranium. Alpha radiation does massive damage if ingested because it is a relatively large and massive helium nucleus that rips a wide track through cells and DNA.
I have never worked with the Polonium, thank God. However, because it is a 222Radon (gas) daughter, we all are potentially affected by 210Po. It’s in the air.
Fascinating! It reminds me when I first read “The Andromeda Strain” in junior high.
So who’s dumber? The Abu Omar “Milano Strut” snatch team, or these lugubrious “Russians,” whoever sent them? I suppose fatality, with its need for answers, will ultimately hand it to the Russians, but note that the kidnap has already had a role in the downfall of the SISMI chief, and that might not be the end of it.
Never shrug off incompetence.
Anyone recall that the EPA just decided to regulate nanotechnology. Is there a CIA nanotech connection somewhere in all this?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01979.html
Of course it would half gone if sent by US mail in the old days. Po-210 has a very short 138 day half-life (which is why it is so radioactive weight-for- weight compared to other alpha emitters). I knew about its presence in tobacco (why I had a no smoking sign in the low level counting lab), but there was an op-ed in the NYT yesterday about just how much a smoker ingests with a pack and a half habit: scary. I didn’t know it could get loose under the containment protocol you described in the post, and I am rather skeptical of the details, but it surely is scary stuff.
In all the kerfuffle about this, I haven’t noticed any mention of Karen Silkwood and Pu-239. THAT was done by Big Business America–even more scary IMHO.
Read the wikipedia entry on Polonium.
Sure, it can kill you by giving you cancer, but at higher doses, you get radiation poisoning and are dead in weeks, not decades.
A milligram of this stuff is waaaaaay more than you need to die.
According to Wikipedia
lethal dose if inhaled is 10 nanograms, that is one one-hundred millionth of a gram.
A milligram, therefore, would be sufficient to kill 100,000 people.
rwcole @
95
One of the best political cartoons ever was done at the height of the Watergate scandal. It showed a very Nixonian figure out in the White House parking lot in the dead of night scraping off bumper stickers, as the ‘72 re-election campaign slogan had been “Nixon’s The One!”