My obsession with new fuel efficient cars continues:
[T]he big news is with the new Vue Green Line which will make its debut in 2008. Ford’s Escape Hybrid is paired with a meager 133HP inline-4 engine, while the Vue Green Line will feature GM’s power 3.6 liter V6. The first iteration of the Vue Green Line will feature GM's new 2-mode hybrid system which will debut next year on the Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon full-size SUVs.
In the first mode, the system will work in a manner similar to that of Toyota and Ford’s hybrid systems – the electric motors can power the vehicle at slow to moderate speeds with the gasoline engine kicking in at higher speeds or when more passing power is required. In the second mode, which is triggered during highway cruising, cylinder deactiviation and other tweaks are used to improve fuel economy even further.
In 2009, however, GM plans to introduce plug-in capabilities to the 2-mode Vue Green Line. The vehicle would have the option of charging from a common household exterior 110-volt outlet. With the lithium-ion batteries fully topped off, the driver would be able to travel more than 10 miles on only electric power. Although some adventurous Prius owners have voided their warranties to create their own plug-in system for their vehicles, this would be the first OEM offering available to the public.
For those that work close to home, it could be quite possible to leave your driveway in the morning with a fully topped off battery and travel all the way to work on electric power alone. With a traditional hybrid system, your results may vary as it is unlikely that your batteries would be fully charged when you first turn the key in the morning.
“The technological hurdles are real, but we believe they are also surmountable. I can’t give you a production date for our plug-in hybrid today. But I can tell you that this is a top priority program for GM, given the huge potential it offers for fuel-economy improvement," said Rick Wagoner, GM Chairman and CEO.
Sounds a bit dicey, like a press release issued for the benefit of stockholders. Still, it's nice to know that GM is headed in the right direction. I know most auto engineers believe that hybrids are a technology to tide them over until they can develop cost efficient hydrogen fuel-cell powered vehicles, but it's encouraging to know that GM has acknowledged both that there is a problem and they're a bit behind the eight ball on it.
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FITZ!
I felt a new thread coming. Hi Jane.
Toyota Unveil Hybrid Pedal-Electric Concept ‘Car’
Shudder! I owned a Saturn once. It made me want to rape and kill. It was the most uncomfortable, cheaply made car I have ever driven. When the engine finally seized after the quarts and quarts of oil I was dumping into it, I was relieved. Never, Never again.
twolf1 @
3
Thanks Twolf1, I mostly put up these threads because of all the cool links that show up in them and that is one.
Kind of strange not having a 5 speed. No overdrive?
All I know is I’ve leased a Civic Hybrid for the past 4 years and when the lease is up in March I’m buying a new one. Doing nothing but stop-and-go in town driving I’m getting about 40 mpg, and the newer one is supposed to do even better. Love the thing.
Bustednuckles @ 6
Yes, you just listen to Bachman Turner while you drive.
Mercedes RECY at LA Auto Show Design Challenge
The Toyota Highlander Hybrid or Lexus rx400h would be my choices; still gambling on higher gas prices over the life of the vehicle. Not plug-ins.
The Lexus is the smartest car on the market today. Doesn’t Kobe deserve a smart car? I don’t want his purchase to reduce the style to which you’ve become accustomed as his kept lady, Jane, so I am eager to shop with you two when the time comes. My wake is littered with former new car salesmen whose managers found my dealings with their employees inherently unprofitable for the enterprise. I’m at your service!
my “conventional car” lease is up in April, so I’m definitely looking into hybrid this time around.
maybe Honda Accord, or this one
Jane Hamsher @
5
Definitely!
Thanks for posting this Jane and good to see you posting today. I’ve railed on GM’s incompetence and greed in the past and I have to agree with you that it’s nice to start seeing them making some intelligent and long-range decisions for a change rather than they’re usual tact of seeing how much margin the can squeeze out of their new “Super SUV” lines. As Jon Stewart aptly termed them once, “The Earth-Fucker Lines”.
Sometimes I try to imagine what this nation would be like if every major trucking and x-country shipping corporation used bio-diesel while every privately owned vehicle used either bio-diesel or a hybrid technology that took their vehicel above 40mpg average, no matter what size, make or model it was. And to hell with hydrogen since petrol companies will never allow it to gain a serious competitive distribution infrastructure. (unless of course they control it)
Is that really such a hard goal for a Great Nation?
That Ain’t a Car
In 1980, I returned from the Peace Corps and purchased a brand new Toyota Starlett for $5040 (cash). This vehicle was rated by the EPA at 54 MPG. And, in fact, it actually delivered that mileage easily. Also, I could work on it myself (can you work on your own hybrid?).
You can imagine that with a little tweaking you could burn ethanol and probably get 70 MPG on the same car (venturi carb. perhaps).
If anybody has one for sale…reply…I have been looking for a used one for ten years. I would put a big digital display on the back that reads out my current fuel mileage.
Hey Nate.
I just named my laptop Nate but it’s not after you, sorry. Was trying to think of a good name, realized I carry it around the house cradled in my arms like a baby, like a neonate, so I named it Nate.
Ready for the special election?
punaise @ 11
Well. I use Electrasol P*werball Tabs, just like Jane Jetson, celebrity endorser. I guess the future is now!
Jane Hamsher @
5
It would be very convenient, Kobe has 4 feet, car has four pedals (maybe?)… need I say more?
On this one, the tires match the paint. When Kobe peels out, the skid marks’ll be orange!
Loremo!
:-)
How about solars cells on the roof charging the battery as a standard option.
But that would make underground parking and garages less useful.
Saoln.com cover story:
in the accompanying photo, W does not look like a happy camper.
More on the Saturn, also from the LA Auto Show, by Mike Magda on AutoblogGreen
I really like this car! I like everything about it. Sharp. And walkin’ the talk. Al Gore would like it too. I think. This is THE Progressive Car.
Photo voltaics. The wave of the future.
I have fun when I notice I’m doing 40 or more and it’s cruising in all-electric mode. (The car’s smarter than I am. Fortunately.) I suspect GM is behind the curve while talking like they’re ahead of it, not for the first time. Plug-in is only a good option for those who have a garage with an outlet; the rest of us won’t be able to use it.
Beware American car companies promising bright futures. I was at a forum about five years ago that included GM pushing their commitment to hydrogen. They have a spinoff called General Hydrogen. We all heard promises of new cars running on hydrogen fuel cells. Five years ago. What have we actually seen from GM? Hybrid SUVs that go from 12 mpg to 14 mpg. Whoop-de-freaking-do. My thirteen year-old German sports car gets 30 mpg. My modern Dodge minivan gets 24 mpg.
Frankly, American car makers are screwed because they’ve spent their time lobbying government regulations instead of competing on features and performance. While GM and Ford wanted SUVs classified as trucks so they could avoid fuel efficiency, Toyota came along and kicked their asses with the Prius.
If GM can come out with a decent hybrid car, great. But until the cars are actually in the showrooms I wouldn’t get excited. I remember the EV1 and how much I wanted to buy one. GM was happy to show it off at auto shows but when asked they said no way would they ever sell them in Minnesota because it was too cold. GM choosing to crush their electric cars when there’s still a huge demand says all you need to know about their commitment to non-dinosaur based energy.
Tesla Motors
100% electric, 0-60 in 4 seconds, 135 mpg equivalent, 250 miles per charge…
TeddySanFran @ 17
Tires like that have been around for a while, but in some municipalities (including, IIRC, Oakland) they’ve been banned. Seems different gangs were doing donuts in the streets and otherwise making tracks to “mark” their territory in the appropriate gang colors.
Where’s John Perley Huffman? He usually shows up about this time and tells us we’re all full of shit and this is just liberal vanity.
He does know more about cars than anyone I know though (Kobe consulted him before his most recent purchase) so I always welcome his thoughts.
I’ve been driving our new Camry Hybrid since September, and it’s awesome! I’m getting 39-40 mpg in my regular daily driving, and while I’ve never been a sports-car guy, if you push it, it kicks in the gas and electric together for some serious acceleration.
TeddySanFran @
10
OOOoooh. Can I watch?
Jane Hamsher @ 28
Where’s John Perley Huffman?
LOL I figured your post was to smoke him out ; )
twolf1 @ 26
But only room for Kobe and one friend!
Peterr @ 27
But isn’t our KosGang colour orange?
While it might be POSSIBLE
, it isn’t likely. Why? If you ever took a Prius for a test drive, you’d find that the gas engine always starts from cold and runs for a few minutes (at least the original Prius model did). It does that to get the catalyst hot enough to meet emissions standards…it doesn’t know how far you intend to drive (city mode?). The alternative is to use that precious battery juice to electrically heat the converter. Maybe that will happen eventually when battery tech improves. Anyway, I didn’t fit in the Prius and bought a Corolla instead.
Redshift @ 29
hottest-looking non-Prius sedan around, imho.
stops me in my tracks every time, in all colors. lovely car.
TeddySanFran @ 1:48 pm (#17)
From the link:
I bet the first fender-bender in that little jewel will set its owner back a few grand.
Danny DeVito doesn’t like George Bush.
http://us.video.aol.com/video……id=1779309
TeddySanFran @ 10
who are now “used” car salesmen? :~)
Jacqrat @
30
Damn, Donita is right. I *am* a PERV.
Kobe’s tired of his current ride already?!?
I really don’t understand what “fuel-economy” and “SUV” are doing in the same story. If you care about the former, don’t buy the latter.
TeddySanFran @
32
…could tow around all the friends he wants with this:
PETERBILT TO UNVEIL ADVANCED HYBRID TECHNOLOGIES
TeddySanFran @ 35
Yeah! One of the amusing features — when I took off the temporary tags, I discovered that it doesn’t have a license plate bracket in the front; there were screws going directly into the plastic bumper cover. So if you’re lucky enough to live in a state that doesn’t require front plates, you can have an unblemished front contour — now that’s attention to beauty.
(Maybe this is a common feature on higher-end cars, since this is the highest-end one I’ve owned, but I hadn’t seen it before.)
Different hybrid vehicle systems use their components differently, engaging them for different purposes in different vehicles even made by the same manufacturer. Between manufacturers, the differences are so vast that the single word “hybrid” barely encompasses them.
For instance, the differences between the Honda Civic/Accord hybrids and the Toyota Prius/Camry/Highlander hybrids affect which powersources powers the vehicle when. I wouldn’t extrapolate from first-gen Prii experiences to possible GM Saturn experiences; if GM says it’ll perform a particular way, I won’t believe it until I see it, but I don’t disbelieve it because of other manufacturers’ choices for powersource engagement.
Reminder: don’t forget to check your potential vehicle’s eligibility for income tax offsets or credits.
cafferty talking about Webb’s comments to Chimpy on CNN
you know what?
I’ve been saying this ever since the hybrid cars first made news;
our auto industry is supposed to be enjoying the most profitable years in their history right now.
there is NO reason we are not ENTIRELY hybrid RIGHT NOW.
that would make every single person still driving a gasoline car to be ITCHING for a hybrid
there are fuhriggin waiting lines for foreign hybrids and THERE IS NO REASON FOR IT.
it’s sickening
if REAGAN hadn’t repealed the programs that were intended to make us energy independant, gasoline would be PENNIES right now…that’s right, pennies, supply and demand and NOBODY would be demanding gasoline.
there’s wind, tide, there’s solar, there’s liquid coal, AND THERE’S RENEWABLE sources like corn.
vegetable fuel would make the heartland of America centraly important, our farmers would be RICH
we’d be SELLING our abundant supply of petroleum overseas becuase WE WOULDN’T NEED NEARLY ALL OF IT
this is NOT fantasy, take a look at venequela
now, you take my post, you make it a foundation to run your presidential campaign and YOU ARE THE NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
now, I like my post so much, I’m gonna do a grammer edit, a spell check and post it on my blog
We bought our hybrid, a Prius, on 1/17/03, the date of the first anti-war rally in our town. I only have good things to say about this car!
One thing I’ve found, however, is that all the media focuses on is how long you’d have to own it/far you’d have to drive it to “pay” for the added costs. That’s bullshit. It also spews only 10% of the emissions of a normal car, which is a huge benefit, yet noone mentions that as a “cost.”
Unfortunately, trying to leave my house yesterday during a snowstorm (we live on a steep hill) ended with me choosing between sliding into a parked pick-up truck or going off the road into a grove of manzanitas. I (smartly) chose the latter but busted a steering rod and dented it in the process. Hopefully it will be as good as new after the repairs.
Free Saddam! Lock George up!
Still love my “old” Prius and 46.5 mpg, though the new ones do better. We were involuntarily upgraded to a luxury Chrysler (28 mpg) recently for a rental and came home appreciating Toyota’s quality engineering even more. Still not a single problem since we bought it in 2002, after 146,000 miles. We’ll buy another one if this one ever dies.
My cat hates cars, buses, trucks and anything that makes noise or stinks. She’s an enviro-kat.
Redshift:
You may wish to check your state’s penalties for non-display of the frontplate. In that frontplates are useless in all cases — most meter maids are even required to check the backplate for a match! — many states, including California, have very very low penalties for non-display. You can’t be pulled over for non-display, and it can’t get piled onto with other moving violations. A meter maid can give you a non-moving violation for it, but CA meter maids rarely do. I’ve been told, but haven’t verified, that the penalty is $10 and extremely rare.
Folks who own exotics routinely leave off the frontplate in CA, armed with this knowledge.
Now, if we can find greener methods of producing electricity for home use (and for fulling charging the car’s batteries) we’d be looking at a better future as well as a better car!
Something to keep in mind… We get most of our electricity from burning oil or coal, so a hybrid gas/electric car is just pushing the ball down the field some. Hydro-electric is location specific. So is wind (and really not very efficient). Building more nuclear powerplants is just out! If we don’t get serious about solar pretty damn quick we are going to be screwed.
Got my DVD of An Inconvenient Truth and watched it over Thanksgiving. My eyes are still like saucers, and I pretty much already knew this stuff!
Noonan @ 51
Looming also: Toxic battery disposal at vehicle end-of-life.
Noonan @ 51
fantasy of mine;
a treadmill in my house hooked up to a pully system that raises a great weight above my hosue as I run the treadmill or ride the bike
when released, it drives a fly wheel that powers a generator.
free electricity for for my working out effort
I think I’d get about an hours worth of electricity for a months worth of cardio vascular, but hey, it’d be green
Witchywoman @ 52
Depends where you live. My electricity is about 85% from renewable sources, most of which are some geothermal fuel plants in an area of N California called “the geysers.” Check with your own utility, and they can tell you what the sources of their power generation are.
“AND THERE’S RENEWABLE sources like corn”
Making ethanol is a really dirty process. It’s not a magic bullet.
If only they would make a hybrid mini-van for all of us non-cool moms out here who don’t have the ability to fit our families in a Prius but don’t want an SUV either…
Witchywoman @ 56
…and it takes a lot of energy to produce
Electric Chevy pickup, paid for with AirForce dollars.
Or your dollars.
CNN – ISG will brief Chimpy right before they make their findings public on Dec 6th
Peterr @ 55
That’s great, but again it’s location specific. Anyplace that can use a clean energy source is helpful, but we can’t all move to places where clean energy is naturally available. Unless you’d LIKE all of Los Angeles to move to your neck of the woods, Peterr! ;D (Didn’t think so.)
We definitely must also get on the ball for home and office heating/power. We, here, can pay more to get about 10% of our home power to be “green” but that’s still such a small amount. Yet the home/office is where most of our energy use goes.
We must also get beyond the idea of a future “magic bullet” to take the place of oil. To survive we will need to use every possible alternative energy where it is relevant, ie. solar power in the Sun Belt, wind energy, green homes, etc.
punaise @ 58
nothing is fully developed as yet, that’s why we need the programs to develope the alternatives
solar has problems, wind has problems, tide has problems, liquid ccal has problems
all need develioment and ongoing research, but we should be energy independant in about five years if we wanted to do it
Witchywoman @ 52
I want better sooner instead of waiting for perfect later. Having power come from a few hundred well-regulated, pollution-controlled electrical plants is a lot better than tens of thousands of smog-spewing metal boxes all over the country. If all cars are mostly electrical we can more easily shift the electrical generation away from fossil fuels. Seems like a low-resistance way to lessen our need for oil. And other means can be pursued in parallel.
info junkie @ 57
Green, bifuel VW camper van. Alas, only in Germany and not a hybrid. Interestingly, mini-vans seem low on the list of what gets hybridized. Not so many to find when searching, even concepts underway. Wonder why?
Peterr @ 55
Used to drive by the “Geysers” twice a day, to and from my job in the lab at the winery. That would be Rodney Strong/ Sonoma Vineyards in Windsor.
I think the point I’m trying to make is that we live in a closed system. Every move we make has to be taken with regards to how it affects everything else. We have to make sure that pulling on one thing doesn’t push something else out of whack.
We do more recycling than ever in our home– everything is sorted and taken to the recycling center.
SUV’s suk. We so want more fuel efficient vehicles and have dramatically reduced our driving. Per ET’s suggestion, we were very interested in the VW Golf, but cannot get one up here b/c of changing emission requirements and changing diesel fuel requirements. Maybe in 2008… they say.
We just got a pellet stove installed and love it. It’s amazing and uses 100% recycled wood (sawdust!). It’s really very pretty, efficient and burns so cleanly. Our oil consumption is waaay down. Our power co. offers no option for greener resouces, thought we did purchase it in CT.
Oh and we switched out our bulbs to the flourescents and it provides good light and more than satisfactory savings and feelings.
Having started the year we elected Jimmy Carter President, Brazil claims energy independence last March.
BigDog’s ad for the since-defeated PropTaxBigOil, “Brazil did it, and so can California.”
EPU’d:
I’m sure this one has probbally been used already but just in case it hasn’t been…
Faux Headline “Maliki Stands Up Bush Stands Down”.
angie, i really like your recommendation of the flourescents:
Do you mean you like living in only that light? Does it banish the cold with its blue light? I’ve stayed away from the flourescents, liking warm yellowish and pink bulbs in winter especially, but please share more of your experience….
Do people look right? Does food?
Honda Toyota. The Big 2. Nothing can touch them yet. (I won’t babble about them again, I’ve done it too many times on here).
The Detroit 3 are in their “last Throes”.
Hayduke @ 70
W’s mournful lament:
TeddySanFran @ 71
Do you mean you like living in only that light? Does it banish the cold with its blue light? I’ve stayed away from the flourescents, liking warm yellowish and pink bulbs in winter especially, but please share more of your experience….
Do people look right? Does food?
People? Yes. Food? Yes.
The only thing that takes some getting used to is that there’s often a slight delay when you switch on the light before it comes on, and then a minute or so before it’s up to full power. I’ve learned that when I walk into a dark room and hit the switch, I’d better count to five before taking any further steps, to avoid stepping on any toys and such on the floor in front of me.
Yeah punaise. Elvis C. is good stuff!
There are so many little things that can be done around the house to conserve. We now have double windows. And tonight it’s supposed to get down around 14F. With snow and sleet tomorrow. We also put in a radiator heater in the attic which works off the water heater. And some other things.
TeddySanFran: for your desk or work/reading area, you can get Ott-lights, which are decently close to daylight (very white), and are fairly easy to find in the 13W ‘compact fluorescent’ (tube) version (Office Depot carries them; so does JoAnn’s, but closer to MSRP). Won’t work in incadescent-type sockets, unfortunately, but down the road, there might be something.
TeddySanFran @ 71
Do you mean you like living in only that light? Does it banish the cold with its blue light? I’ve stayed away from the flourescents, liking warm yellowish and pink bulbs in winter especially, but please share more of your experience….
Do people look right? Does food?
CA energy compliance codes are increasingly calling for “high efficacy luminaries”, i.e. fluorescent, in residential construction (kitchens, bathrooms, etc.). The color rendition of fluorescent lights has improved considerably; flicker and ballast delay or no longer inherent problems if you get the right products.
Jane, I’m glad you brought this up. There are several things to keep in mind:
1. Technology is moving very fast right now, and several start ups are building new all-electric cars. A few years to market, but less than a decade by a long shot.
2. It takes more energy to generate hydrogen than it provides.
3. Batteries from newer materials are beginning to emerge (e.g. zinc/air)
4. The new generation of “supercapacitors” are emerging very rapidly as a power source for automotive uses.
http://www.greencarcongress.co…..ystal.html
5. New designs are emerging very rapidly for carbon-composite cars. This link is to a concept car, but Zap electronics in Santa Rosa is working on a fleet of new electric cars.
http://www.acceleratedcomposites.com/index.php
It won’t be very long, much less than a decade, before a whole new generation of vehicles emerges, and don’t look for them coming out of Detroit. Instead, look for them coming out of the research triangle in North Carolina, the research corridor in Mass., Silicon Valley, and the Seattle area.
In the meantime, hybrids will do right fine as a bridge.
“Ford’s Escape Hybrid is paired with a meager 133HP…” Meager? 133HP is enough to move that little Escape around. It’s not a sports car.
I wouldn’t want to get a hybrid anyway. The mechanical complexity introduced by the hybird systems isn’t justified by the increase in fuel efficiency.
I’ve been wanting to get a VW TDI Golf. 47 mpg diesel. The air quality standards should be me by the 2008 model.
Tesla… when they make their sedan and bring the price point down, electric might become a real option. Electricity can be generated by any number of methods. The greener we make the generation the cleaner the electric car gets.
“Ford’s Escape Hybrid is paired with a meager 133HP…” Meager? 133HP is enough to move that little Escape around. It’s not a sports car.
I wouldn’t want to get a hybrid anyway. The mechanical complexity introduced by the hybird systems isn’t justified by the increase in fuel efficiency.
I’ve been wanting to get a VW TDI Golf. 47 mpg diesel. The air quality standards should be met by the 2008 model.
Tesla… when they make their sedan and bring the price point down, electric might become a real option. Electricity can be generated by any number of methods. The greener we make the generation the cleaner the electric car gets.
Auto engineers yes, it’s so attractive. But business people laugh into their morning coffee ’cause of the distribution challenges.
Hydrogen must be transported to the end user’s location, meaning my local filling station. A short list of challenges to do this:
-Trucks to get hydrogen delivered to the station. These are all-new trailers with specific design features to keep it all safe and liquid.
-New tanks in the ground and all-new pumps to deliver the hydrogen to your vehicle. This is a huge cost, and probably impossible in many cases due to local space constraints as well as environmental and zoning restrictions. At any rate, it’s a multi-year challenge with a price tag the size of Montana.
-Production of the hydrogen. How do we make this stuff? Cracking water requires a bunch of electricity—from where? Cracking hydrocarbons requires the same old fuel sources and dirty production infrastructure. Sure, solar-and-water systems could be built, but for massive production you need to have a ma$$ive production $y$tem.
This is not impossible, but it’s a huge undertaking that has an incredibly expensive investment requirement and probably a decade-long rollout.
The beauty of hybrid is that it can be done today. Yes there are challenges. Battery recycling is a challenge, as is the additional cost of manufacturing. But a simple son-of-cafe standard requiring 60% of the US fleet sold in, oh, six years to be hybrid over a certain MPG rating, would go a long way toward eliminating the importation of oil.
It’s good to see GM once again looking to the future.
TSF– I really don’t notice the difference except it takes a bit for them to brighten to their full capacity. I really discern no difference with the shaded lamps and the light is warm and appears completely normal to me.
We still have chandeliers with incandescents in them, but when we turn them on find it unpleasant now unless they are dimmed way down. I can’t wait to replace those chandeliers with other fixtures (or bulbs that don’t look so “screwy”) so I can enjoy them too!
(sorry for the delay, I got a phone call from a long-winded dear friend!)
A few comments–
1) hydrogen is a long way off. There has to be work on the storage, the infrastructure, the fuel cells themselves, and getting renewable hydrogen (as opposed to that from reforming fossil fuels). It is possible to lower CO2 emissions well to wheels with hydrogen from coal, say, but there are lots of big questions about that. I do believe the only fuel capable of powering something like current transport demands is hydrogen ultimately (biofuels can do 10-15% at best), but it is a ways off.
2) Plug in hybrids make a lot of sense. You get the option. There is really no compelling reason NOT to do plug in hybrids. Now, in terms of emissions overall (not just from the car) whether straight electric is better than gas is slightly iffy–in CA it is, but in Ohio (where big coal dominates electricity) it is practically the same amount of CO2 emitted.
Note that Prof. Andy Frank at UC Davis (see also here) has been leading the way on plug in hybrids FOR YEARS, and there is little doubt that they can do a great job.
3) I very much like the idea of cylinder shutdown at cruising speed for the GM cars. This is part of the whole bundle of fuel efficiency improvements that people like Amory Lovins have talked about for years and for which there is just no reason NOT to do.
4) FYI, I have a Ford Hybrid Escape and the Honda Hybrid Civic. Both deliver their high way mileage as claimed, and underperform relative to the EPA number in the city — but I live in the very hilly bay area. Both have decent pep, but not what the V6 Vue can offer.
My only complaint is that the Ford service is, to put it mildly, rather flakey and has not received the attention that eg, Honda and Toyota give to service. There are few other funky design features (Hello, why not lights above the mirror standard like the Honda???)
but it is a pretty good car. We are happy with it.
AP – The Pentagon is developing plans to send four more battalions to Iraq early next year, partly to boost security in Baghdad, defense officials said Wednesday. Meanwhile, a commission studying Iraq policy said it would make its report next week.
Madness. Sheer madness.
Dr. Bong @ 18
Yepper’s, I’m holding out for German engineering circa 2009. I wonder how big Kobe is? My German Shepherd is about 100 pounds but I’m betting the engineers will accommodate her…after all, she’s German!
Until then, I’m running E85 in my Chrysler product with pretty good results.
Fluorescent lights can be a problem, inducing headaches. They’re only on part of the time (flickering quickly) and some of us are sensitive to that. There’s also the toxic components of the lights themselves. There have been advancements made with fuller light spectrum and diffusion to minimize the flickering effect.
For me the future is LED light bulbs. Really low power, never burn out, none of the toxins or flickering of fluorescent lights. Right now they’re pricey and the brightness isn’t quite there, but that’s where I’m heading for lighting.
An energy efficient car doesn’t have a 3.6L V6.
This ought to be interesting.
Iraq, Iran reach agreement on security .
snip
Presidents Jalal Talabani of Iraq and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran held talks Wednesday hours before U.S.
President George W. Bush was due to meet with the Iraqi prime minister in Jordan in talks aimed at finding a solution to Iraq’s spiraling bloodshed.
snip
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…../iran_iraq
punaise @
20
Bet the contingent travelling with W are even less happy!
Has a US President ever been stood up like this before?
Personally, I believe that the ME countries are trying to bring W down a peg or two. They can leave W and his crew standing as far as intrigue is concerned. Also, I bet anything that the memo was deliberately leaked. I hope they tell W to get his act together or else.
If they wanted you in a high-mileage vehicle, you would have access to one. Jimmy Carter made this one possible with new mileage standards: http://www.toyoland.com/cars/starlet.html Why are we all settling for over-priced, high-technology vehicles that cost the average driver a month’s wages every time it needs service. If Toyota could do 54 MPG before the advent of carbon fiber and Electronic Fuel Injection, it could easily do 90 MPG if we would all give up some horsepower and size.
Grousefinder @
13
Just wanna pop in and say that we absolutely love, love, love our Prius.
In addition to getting just a hair under 50mpg (with lots of little trips in the city, and a daily 25 minute commute), we are so happy with the inside seating COMFORT.
The way this sucker’s been engineered is brilliant. From the outside design it somehow appears to be a sleek, little compact. But that’s just an optical illusion. It’s really a good mid-sized vehicle. The backseat has terrific legroom for adults.
Three adults can fit in the back seat, no problem — unless you have three equally obese folks. As long as one less hugely sized individual sits in the center, all will be well.
[I base this analysis on the fact that when I or the taller Mr. K8 sit in the back seat, there is PLENTY of comfortable room LEFT OVER. It would take much, much larger people than we are to feel stifled in the car. With my leg, hip, and back pain problems, being able to shift around comfortably and “stretch” my legs a bit is very, very important.]
Just wanna toss this out there for other folks who might have similar needs. The sleek, compact look from the “outside” is deceptive.
Oh, and we can schlepp around a hell of a lot of stuff, too. The trunk is quite large for a mid-size. And when using the drop-down back seat as a storage supplement, we’ve managed to carry home appliances, fresh Christmas trees, and multiple suitcases and other bags with no problem. (Uh, not all at once, though — the Christmas tree and kitchen range got separate trips, without suitcases on top!).
puppethead @ 89
We would like those too, and I was worried about the flickering of the bulbs as well, but I have not found them bothersome at all. Nary a flicker with the small ones! They are completely different from the long old fashioned toobz. Try one, you might like it! I first experienced them in Denmark at my parents’ home and am convinced.
puppethead @ 89
A lot of semi’s etc have gone to LED tail lights which you probably know. Many don’t realize that when you car or truck lights are on, that uses extra fuel.
My fantasies about switching my job as a physician into full time independent research of mass marine culture of oil producing algae for biodiesel production rage on.
I have this crazy idea about all those empty frigates going back to China from the US towing acres of substrate along in the sea that serve as attachment surfaces for algae that can later be harvested.
The fantasies get really out of hand when I start thinking about using genetics and cell physiology to create a functional rubik’s cube for patent protection.
I’ve been gradually replacing incandescent with compact fluorescent light “bulbs,” inside and out. I use the fluorescents in my habitual reading spot, and have not had problems due to the lights. (Due to middle age, on the other hand…) Supposedly you can’t put them in fixtures that have dimmers, but I popped a floodlight into a ceiling light on a temporary basis, and it didn’t bother it a bit.
One strange thing: I put a CF in one of two outdoor lights. That’s the one that all the bugs flock around, in a positive frenzy. Weird.
I would do drastic things for one of the Teslas. On a more practical note, and once I’ve killed off my Hyundai, I’m thinking hybrid Toyota.
These 2008 model diesels are worth a look too.
Link
Diesel BABY !!!
torque, superior gas mileage, and longevity.
Diesel engines don’t get broken in until 100k miles.
If you can buy a biodiesel mix locally, ALL THE BETTER !
The ultra low sulfur fuel is a great start here in the US.
I get frustrated reading and hearing about energy production, because there is often another agenda or bias associated with the discussion. I still don’t know about the ecologic value of ethanol because of the issue of the farm subsidies. As far as I can tell, ethanol uses a-lot of oil to produce, contributes to farm waste run-off, and now the producers are converting from natural gas to coal to increase profits. Wind farms are unsightly, kill migratory birds etc. Nuclear produces no greenhouse gases but the other waste products are bad.
The only certainty is that there is no free lunch. Is there an information source that give an honest discussion of the science and the /- of environmental impact vs practicality?
Jane — I know I’m deep in EPU Zone, but I had to point this one out.
You NEED this one. (And that dishy thing in the B&W photo halfway down the page, too; maybe Kobe will share the seat.)
I will say that although it wasn’t a hybrid, the Honda CRX was one of the most fuel efficient vehicles around. I had a 1984, was not the high-mileage model and I still got 45 mpg in that thing with a traditional engine. Could also easily zip along at above-highway speeds and still get high fuel efficiency. If Honda could get this beauty back on the road with even better technology commonly available today, I believe you could see 60 mph no problem.
While the idea of a hybrid is appetizing, there is still so much that could be done to improve the performance of existing traditional vehicles. The CRX has been a perfect example of the exceptional mileage that’s possible but long ignored by the public.
My folks still own an old CRX and won’t part with it because of its fuel efficiency. [sigh] I’d snap it up in a heartbeat.
I’d love to have one, but car makers seem to think efficient cars are only for people under 6 feet.
Muzzy, you give me any kind of concrete report on the possibilities and I’d be an investor in a heartbeat! Why why why aren’t we already investigating your fantasies?…to the moon Ralphie!
Rayne, you can post pix of Ben Davidson in EPU any-frickin-time, baby!!
Car’s cute too.
egregious @
14
Hi egregious… Good to know I have a namesake. Probably very fitting that it’s a well-loved and cared-for laptop computer.
I’m actually working on a new site that I’m trying to get launched for 07. I’ll make sure and send you a link when I’ve got a little bit more ready to go. I haven’t been doing much blogging since the election which I regret but I’m trying to juggle a bunch of family issues with the need to get bills paid and all the things I’m going to be doing for the next cycle.
Teddy, I saw him first. Sloppy seconds for you.
And yeah, that car totally rocks. Hard.
Hydrogen is nothing but hype. An excellent way for companies to run beautiful ads about the bright hydrogen future while doing not much now.
Speaking as a physicist doing R&D on high-temperature fuel cells, the future may belong to Solid Oxide Fuel Cells, fuel cells that can run on hydrocarbon fuels (soybean oil, biodiesel, as well as petroleum derivatives) as well as hydrogen.
Batteries for electric vehicles will be ready for prime time long before a hydrogen infrastructure is implemented (due to the very low density and very high kinematic viscosity of hydrogen). See the book The Hype About Hydrogen” for more info.
Caradoc @ 103
No, no, no! See my post earlier in the thread, specifically about the roominess in the Prius.
While my comment focused on leg- and general body-room, there is also good headroom. Mr. K8 is only 6 ft tall, but I can see from the room left over above his head that there’s a good few inches to spare.
You’re not 7 ft tall, are you? ‘Cause I’m not sure if THAT would work.
Markinsanfran @ 108
Very interesting. That was my suspicion (that hydrogen was way hyped), but I wasn’t sure. Do you work for some sort of independent organization, or is your R&D work on behalf of a specific auto company or other corporation?
(Not trying to be nosy about specifics, just curious about the objectives of whoever sponsors research. I’d like to think that there are corporations who really want to solve our problems rather than merely stuff the execs’ pockets by steering us into some blind alleys. For instance, I think ethanol is a scam for big agra like ADM.)
My best friend from childhood just bought an orange car, because she is an expert teacher for groups of kids who come to learn about monarch butterflies.
She also has a spif costume. With antennae. We know how to have fun.
Mrs. K8 @ 110
I am an independent consulting physicist. My SOFC work is funded by a public/private research lab in Canada. I do hope that the new democratic congress will expand funding for R&D in the US, as that would pay huge dividends (as well as help me pay my bills :-)
Ethanol – yup, you got it. Also for Iowa farmers – gotta be good to those folks who populate the Iowa caucuses (yuk). OTOH, enzymatically produced ethanol (and other fuels) are coming online and with that method you can use the whole cornstalk (or other plant material).
Doesn’t plugging the car in halfway defeat the purpose of the hybrid? My understanding is that the hybrid stores kinetic energy from the brakes that would otherwise be wasted as heat. That is, the electricity is 100% physically costless. Plugging the car in means you’re almost certainly tapping a fossil- or nuke-powered power plant somewhere.
Rayne @ 102
I had one too (1990 CRX HF) until a few months ago when i got a new Civic (gas powered). The CRX was amazing, didn’t want to part with it (I’m having a baby though) I always got at least 40mpg. The problem is that car was really light, new cars aren’t. Mostly b/c of safty features,etc. The CRX was approx 1900lbs whereas a new Civic is approx 2800. that a hell of a diffeernce. The CRX got 40 mpg and the new Civic gets 30-40mpg (i average 36 when not even trying to get that). The new civic is a hell of a lot faster too. Bottom line is cars are lot heavier. The new Civic engine would probally get 60 mpg if you were able to put in in a CRX. Engine MPG has gotten better but the weight of vechiles has gone up too!
Stuart Eugene Thiel @ 113
It doesn’t really defeat the purpose of the hybrid, which in a plugin hybrid, is to extend the range of the batteries. As soon as the batteries run down a little bit, the regenerative braking will start recharging the batteries.
When I get an electric car (or plugin hybrid), my driving will not increase global warming since SF is powered by hydroelectricity. If the power came from nuclear plants, ditto – zero greenhouse gases. It’s the coal-fired power plants that would be the problem then – they need to be replaced by wind power, solar, and nuclear.
Not being an electrical genuis, I will venture that a 220 plug-in would cost half as much to charge. My house is wired so that circuits that are in use are on opposite sides of the supply.
Thomas @ 116
220VAC would cost exactly the same as 110VAC, since you are billed for watt-hours (actual energy) used, not for amp-hours.
220VAC would allow you to charge faster, since there is twice the power transmitted in a 220 circuit than a 110 circuit, assuming the same amp rating on the curcuit breaker.
Some notes about fuel economy, hybrids and future energy sources…
I’m a skeptic of the current generation of hybrids. In certain situations (most notably stop and go city driving) they do provide a great increase over conventional models. But the economics do not work for most drivers. The fuel economy advantage of a Prius over a Scion xB at highway speeds is going to be about ten mpg. You would have to drive the Prius for more than a quarter-million miles to recover just the higher sticker price of the Prius. When you factor in the higher maintenance cost for the hybrid drive system it becomes impossible to actually save any money.
Dollars and cents may not be a primary concern for a lot of current hybrid buyers, but at some point you have to make this technology work in the marketplace if you want to use this technology to reduce our oil consumption. We’re not there, and if you include the thousands in higher cost to manufacture hybrids that car makers currently eat, we’re not even close.
There is also reason to be skeptical about the net economic and environmental benefit of hybrids compared to conventional economy models. Battery companies have become much greener in the last 20 years, particularly in recycling, but this is still a business that consumes and produces huge quantities of toxic materials. The net ecological effect would make a good dissertation, but suffice to say that a hybrid comes with ecological costs that are not incurred in a conventional vehicle. (Plug-in hybrids are a variation on this problem, and a genuinely bad idea. This is a horribly inefficient way to recharge the batteries and it only shifts the ecological damage to over the horizon, most likely at the smokestack of a coal-burning plant.)
Hydrogen? Building a hydrogen car is the easy part. The DOE did a study several years ago (pre-Bush) that said it would take hundreds of new nuclear plants to create the electricity we would need to convert from oil to hydrogen. On top of that we would have to create an entirely new energy distribution infrastructure at a cost in the many trillions of dollars. If you’re in your thirties or early 40’s, you might see it become our principal energy source in your lifetime – but I wouldn’t bet tomorrow’s lunch money on it.
This doesn’t mean all is hopeless and we should go out and buy Hummers in a final petroleum binge. Gasoline-powered hybrids have dubious economics, but a small, efficient diesel paired with a hybrid makes a much more compelling case. And diesels allow a seamless transition to biodiesel blends, which is the real future of renewable engine fuels. (Corn-derived ethanol is petroleum neutral.) A diesel hybrid that doubles highway fuel economy and runs on a 50/50 biofuel blend makes a real dent in oil consumption and much closer to being economically viable.
Diesel hybrids aren’t the only answer. Three years ago the Chicago Tribune did an excellent series on the 1993 Clinton initiative to create a family car that got 80mpg, which was killed the moment Bush came into office. (Supercar: The tanking of an American dream) We would be a lot better off if we paid more attention to these possible incremental steps than a fuel cell that is decades off at the earliest.
Oh yeah – Jane needs a car. My wife and I love her Scion xB. Plenty of room, lots of fun to drive, great resale value, cheap, reliable and an honest 35mpg highway.
test
Markinsanfran @
113
Totally agree that hydrogen is over-hyped, and anyone who’s reality based and analyzed it would draw the same conclusion.
From my analysis, big oil is foundational in driving the hype. Their strategy appears purposeful, offering hydrogen as a false alternative to delay implementing lower CO2 emission alternatives (ie, greater fuel efficiency) based on EXISTING technologies and on horizon technologies that are far more feasible than hydrogen-based fuels.
Jane sez, “Still, it’s nice to know that GM is headed in the right direction.” Dearest Jane, you are in danger of being fooled ‘again’. Everything ‘green’ GM has done for 20 years has been to deflect real environmental benefits. Their EV-1 was designed to fail, but succeeded anyway, so they took them back and used them for landfill. They promised to develop hydrogen cars, which is an energy scam on its own, just to avoid higher CAF standards. And now they want to sell you a 3.6 liter engine in a ‘green’ car. Oh yeah. We should all remember that the overwhelming majority of profits in Detroit (if any) come from the large cars. A 133 hp (“meager”) engine is more than enough, in a hybrid system. It just doesn’t make as much money for GM as a 3.6 liter V6.
Grousefinder at 13 writes, “You can imagine that with a little tweaking you could burn ethanol and probably get 70 MPG on the same car (venturi carb. perhaps).” Bad news, GF. Ethanol has a lot less energy per gallon than gasoline: 77,000 Btus to 114,400. Plus it takes 131,000 BTUs to *make* a gallon of ethanol. You might also want to check the pollution numbers on a 1980 car before buying another. GM’s Monstro Green SUV is probably less polluting.
Hpsch at 19 sez, “How about solars cells on the roof charging the battery as a standard option.” Bad news, HP. Figure ten watts per square foot of solar array. One horsepower is 746 watts. So, if you leave, say, 20 square feet of solar cell out for 8 hours, you’ll have 8 x 10 x 20 = 1600 watt hours (cost at home for the toaster, 15-20 cents) = 2 horsepower hours stored up (this is very optimistic). That will get you out of the parking lot and a few hundred feet down the street. Practical value: nil.
P J Evans at 24 sez, “Plug-in is only a good option for those who have a garage with an outlet; the rest of us won’t be able to use it.” Sounds like you already have a Prius, PJ. Good on yer. However, the way the Prius is able to make the battery last virtually forever (no failures yet and a 150,000 tester at the factory on the original battery) is to make absolutely sure that the charge never gets above or below a safety threshold. I think it’s 80% charged and 20% charged. That’s why the warranty is voided for the kits that force battery-only operation. If people run down the charge on their plugins, or overcharge, they’re killing the battery.
TeddySanFran at 54 sez, “Looming also: Toxic battery disposal at vehicle end-of-life.” NiMh batteries, such as used in the Prius, contain no heavy metals. They are much more benign than lead-acid batteries, and even those are recycled in the billions.
Encephalopath at 81 sez, “I wouldn’t want to get a hybrid anyway. The mechanical complexity introduced by the hybird systems isn’t justified by the increase in fuel efficiency.” The only question is, does it work? They have been ultra-reliable. If mechanical simplicity was what we wanted, we’d all be driving turbine engines. Ever looked at the exploded diagram of an Otto cycle engine? Nobody in his right mind would make one, but we’ve been making them for so long it seems simple.
Calscientist at 87 sez, “2) Plug in hybrids make a lot of sense. You get the option. There is really no compelling reason NOT to do plug in hybrids.” The one objection is making the battery big enough to store this energy. A hybrid doesn’t really use the battery for more than peak power requirements. If the battery drives the car for more and a few minutes, it has to get a lot bigger.
Mrs. K8 at 95 sez, “Just wanna pop in and say that we absolutely love, love, love our Prius.” Yup. Me too.
Caradoc at 104 sez, “I’d love to have one, but car makers seem to think efficient cars are only for people under 6 feet.” My wife and I are both over 6’ tall. The Prius works for us, and there is more legroom in the back than in the front.
Thomas at 117 sez, “Not being an electrical genuis, I will venture that a 220 plug-in would cost half as much to charge.” Bad news, Thomas. They charge you for kilowatt hours. You could have a one zillion volt service and it would cost the same.
Baldheadeddork at 119 sez, “I’m a skeptic of the current generation of hybrids. In certain situations (most notably stop and go city driving) they do provide a great increase over conventional models. But the economics do not work for most drivers. The fuel economy advantage of a Prius over a Scion xB at highway speeds is going to be about ten mpg. You would have to drive the Prius for more than a quarter-million miles to recover just the higher sticker price of the Prius. When you factor in the higher maintenance cost for the hybrid drive system it becomes impossible to actually save any money.”
Whew. Just about done. BHD, you’re right about driving conditions making a difference. At highway speeds the hybrid has no advantage other than a lower powered engine. The question is, how do people drive? OK, now about maintenance costs: so far, I have seen nothing different from my previous cars. One hopes that in time independent mechs will be good at servicing hybrids so you are not prisoner to the dealers. When it’s a monopoly, you lose. Unfortunately for the dealers, the Prius seems to be very reliable and low-maintenance. Win some, lose some.
In 2009, however, GM plans to introduce plug-in capabilities to the 2-mode Vue Green Line. The vehicle would have the option of charging from a common household exterior 110-volt outlet. With the lithium-ion batteries fully topped off, the driver would be able to travel more than 10 miles on only electric power. Although some adventurous Prius owners have voided their warranties to create their own plug-in system for their vehicles, this would be the first OEM offering available to the public.
I hope they use something other than lithium ion. L-I batteries lose about 20% capacity per year, regardless of use, and more as the temperatures increase.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion
You’d probably have to buy a new 10K battery pack a year.
Argonaut @
122
Um, about highway mileage, not true. I have the Camry Hybrid in Northern New England, up and down hills on the interstates. I’m getting around 38-40 MPG cruising between 65-75MPH (using a “light” foot, however). Remember that going downhill, the motor-generators pump power back into the hybrid battery, and the engine swiftly goes to idle when headed downhill. Also, the Camry engine is an “atkinson” cycle (rather than “otto” cycle), with higher overall efficiency. I also don’t believe the hybrid system is maintenance heavy (and if so, it’s g’teed for 10 years anyway), since it’s a lot of clever solid-state stuff (the inverter), computers and the “powersplit” device is a thing of truly alien beauty, with no clutches, belts or any of that crap.
Steve Kelso at 124 says, “Um, about highway mileage, not true. I have the Camry Hybrid in Northern New England, up and down hills on the interstates. I’m getting around 38-40 MPG cruising between 65-75MPH (using a “light” foot, however).”
Hybrid efficiency comes from maximizing the efficiency of the gas engine. The software and transmission allow it to run at the most efficient speed, even during acceleration, and to charge the battery for use when extra power (particularly torque) is needed (i.e. acceleration from stop) or very little power is needed (steady speed up to 40 mph in the Prius) and running the gas engine creates more power than can be used. So, in stop and go and/or driving below 50 mph or so, the hybrid is at its best.
However, at steady freeway speeds over time the power required is more than can be supplied by the gas engine at max efficiency, because the mfrs have judged that it’s more important to be good at city and all-round demands than just at freeway demands. The battery can’t supply useful power for more than a few minutes, so, at those freeway speeds, the car is running as though it were a very efficient but normal car. I can watch the meter and see that at a steady 55 I get close to 55 mpg. At a steady 75 I get in the low 40s. Wind resistance does it, as it does to all cars. If I had a 70 hp streamlined Saturn, I’d probably get the same mileage at 75 – but you can’t get a 70-hp Saturn. In your case, what’s the hp of the gas engine in the Camry hybrid? I’m guessing it’s less than the all-gas models (hp and torque), and that’s where your freeway speed advantage lies. Of course an ordinary 4-cyl Camry already does pretty well.
Yes, the downhill capture of energy helps, but that dang wind resistance can’t be beat.
O.K., so let’s get down to brass tacks. So we can decide what’s best each person reading this should provide info on an ‘alternative fuel’ vehicle they own or know is easily available:
Company, name, price, mpg and pecularities
Rick also wrapped up his key note by shoving an environmentalist that asked him to sign a pledge to make GM the leader in fuel economy by 2010. Here’s the video
They could get all the help in the world from the government to make these cars efficiently and “profitable-ly” and all they’d have to do is publicly and strongly — The one good thing K Street ever did? — support universal health care!
Think of the money it would save them. Think of the internationally cost-competitive jobs they would be creating! Think of the….
Oh, but oh dear. They’d make enemies of the oil boys. Couldn’t have that, now could they….
Argonaut @ 125…
The Hybrid has the same 2.4L engine as the other 4-cyl Camrys, only detuned from 158HP to 147 (atkinson cycle). The traction motor kicks in another 40HP for a net of 187HP. I think the Camry Hybrid is more “tuned” for the highway than the Prius I used to own. Like the Prius, though, it will stay “all electric” (on a level road) below 40 mph.