
I think it's time to pull Lil' Debbie off covering the local DC pie eating contests to which she has been relegated after doing such a bang-up job covering the Jack Abramoff/Steno Sue dust up (wherein we learned that "giving money to Democrats" means...well...uh...just about anything the Kewl Kidz might want it to, actually). But now we have a burning question that only she can field for us. According to Greg Sargent:
The question has arisen because Post executive editor Leonard Downie, Jr. was asked by Editor and Publisher whether the Post would begin describing the conflict as a "civil war." Other news orgs, including the New York Times today, have announced they will. But Downie told Editor and Publisher the following:
"We just describe what goes on everyday. We don't have a policy about it. We are not making judgments one way or another. The language in the stories is very precise when dealing with it. At various times people say it is 'close to a civil war,' but we don't have a policy about it."But as noted below, that response doesn't answer the central question of whether Post reporters and editors can describe the conflict in the paper that way if they wish to -- that is, if they think it's important to do so in order to communicate the reality of what's happening in Iraq with their readers. Post reporter Dana Priest has already described the conflict that way -- on Hardball, not in the pages of the Post, and other Post reporters have reached similar conclusions without saying so outright.
The minute I saw that Greg had emailed post spokesman Eric Grant (whose clarification consisted of "the quote stands on its own), I knew what the problem was, you see. The only person capable of grabbing a shovel at the Post and getting to the bottom of this linguistic merd pile is our own Lil' Debbie. As Glenn Greenwald pointed out yesterday, the Beltway Bores anxious to defend Jane Harmon are basically consumed with a 24/7 fixation to write themselves a pass for their previous lives as warmongers, so it's no surprise that the Post would not want to acknowledge exactly what the wisdom of Don Graham and his own personal Charlie McCarthy, Fred Hiatt, hath wrought.
Graham's role in shaping the paper's pro-war ediorial stance has largely been overlooked. But rather than put Hiatt's tit in the well-deseved wringer once again, let's take a look at the political leanings of the man he largely speaks for:
[O]ne of Don Graham’s first and most important acts as publisher was to remove the longtime editorial page editor, Philip Geyelin, who was a solid liberal, and replace him with Meg Greenfield, a maverick with strong neoconservative leanings. Many observers say the pages have been drifting right ever since. In October 2001, the former Post editorial writer and syndicated columnist Colman McCarthy published a scathing article in The Progressive entitled “Why the Washington Post Op-Ed Page is So Dull.” McCarthy monitored the Post op-ed page daily for three months, and concluded that “it is a sheet of numbing sameness: centrist or rightwing viewpoints, listless writing, and pro-establishment megaphonics.” Friends say that Graham has grown increasingly conservative in recent years, and that the op-ed page — which features Robert Novak, Charles Krauthammer, and George Will as regular columnists — is not inconsistent with his own views. What is clear is that it’s a page in which conservative voices are very strong and liberal voices are very weak.
Asked for his opinion of the Progressive piece, Hiatt replies mildly, “I don’t remember the piece well enough to give you a general response.” But he does take the opportunity to announce the latest addition to the Post’s editorial board — the gifted (and conservative) writer Anne Applebaum, whose work has appeared in The Wall Street Journal, The Spectator, and The Daily Telegraph, and who will join the paper in October. Hiatt does have his fans, though. “I think Fred Hiatt will be one of the best appointments of Don Graham’s tenure,” says Jaffe of The Washingtonian.
Since this poserior-covering starts on high, we obviously need someone with the fierce independence of a Deborah Howell to give us the straight poop.
It's what we look to her for, after all.
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“We don’t have a policy about it. We are not making judgments one way or another.”
Good gawd!
It’s all bullshit. It’s just like Vietnam, it was a war, it wasn’t a war. Who gives shit, people are dying for nothing again.
WE WANT OKRENT!
Katherine Graham is spinning in her grave, ashamed at what has become of her newspaper in the hands of her son.
Deborah is too busy monitoring Dana Milbank’s outfits on Countdown to pay attention to this small detail, Jane. :)
Rob Zuber @
5
Well she does have rather spiffy fashion sense after all.
Deborah? I’m in love with what’s she’s not.
Spiffy. [laughing]
Like too many scions of wealthy parents who’ve successfully built major institutions, [Don Graham, George W. Bush, you-fill-in-the-blank…] is on course to totally destroy what was given him.
We want Lally.
Free association time: If Karl Rove is the Turd Blossom, guess that would make George Dubya the Turd.
We want democracy.
Does Laura own a dress? Will The Other Twin be dragged kickin’ and screamin’ back to the ranch? Where’s Condi hiding? Is Rush gettin’ any?
WTF is The Mission?
Thanks Jane and Christy for keepin’ the sunshine on the DC frolickers.
…spiffy?
I want to be spiffy too. So far, I’m still trying to master the complicated task of how to be swell….
Jane Hamsher @ 6
I don’t know.
Camouflage is sooo last season, you know?
This whole thing stinks and is junk.
These people should get no rest at all; thanks Jane!
They took all the stoopid lines the WH handed them– “insurgents”, “terrorists”, “islamofascists”, “sectarian violence”, “radical cleric”, “shock and awe” and more and doled it out regularly to the world.
F.O.S.
I wonder if they would object to “brutal occupation” or “continued and unrelenting massacre because of US” or “a failure of epic proportions based on LIES”.
You left out Punch! Judy Miller’s steak and 1/3 of a martini in a gorgeous glass, manicure and massage–Punch.
this is too rich;
cheney rolls over like a dog,
sticks his butt in the air and waits for suadi’s to have their way one at a time;
the washington post;
OT– Jimmy Carter on cnn now
Some of the media are tryin to play the “even handed” role in dishin up the news. Trouble is- goopers don’t think it’s even handed unless you swallow every ejaculation from gooper headquarters- so once ya start ta play that game- yer fucked.
Thats a pretty target rich environment you’re looking at Jane.
angie @
15
Funny to see Carter laugh after CNN plays clip from today’s chimp speech.
Spiffy?
“Ya called Iraq a Civil War–LIBERAL, LIBERAL!!”
Prince Abdullah: “Come Dick!”
Cheney: “How far?”
-GSD
That ain’t no fuckin Civil War- that’s democracy birth pangs!
I just think it’s tragic that while all the wonks and pundits and so on and soforth are all arguing about correct terminology, there is a bloody civil war going on.
bwahahaha
Carter thinks it’s “funny” that the neocons are running from the chimp, but says their influence is still in the WH.
Calls Iraq a big blunder and it will be judged so.
The Webster’s online dictionary defines “civil war” as, “a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country.”
Doesn’t sound all that controversial, does it? Apparently the term “civil war” didn’t test well with WH focus groups.
EPU’d, relates to Glenn’s Harman-izing:
atrios:
Oops- duck- here comes the afterbirth!!
RW, you paint a helluva picture!
In the end, wasn’t Vietnam deemed to be a civil war?
Wolfie is trying so hard to toe the neocon line with Carter wrt Israel/Palestine.
poor wolf; Carter ain’t playing that game.
I thank goodness that he is taking this on.
OT - sorry if posted before: Texas legalizes bribery
The one problem with the midwife job done by Condi and Chimpy and Deadeye Dick on baby democracy in the middle east.
It’s Alive.
-GSD
Has anyone ever asked the WH what their definition of a civil war is? How will we know, according to their criteria, when Iraq is in one? It’s the same problem with torture. They won’t tell us their definition. It can only surface via leaked memos about severe organ failure. Maybe their secret definition is that 100 plus sectarian groups must be involved and 80% of the country at imminent risk of genocide.
You know there’s a civil war memo in there somewhere.
Someone recently sent me a book called the “Best War ever” or something like that. The authors say there are very bad statistics kept on Iraqi civilian deaths and that there are widely varied tallies from 20,000 to 200,000. Pathetic. The authors also describe a study that implies the rate of death by violence is now the number one cause of death, whereas under Saddam it was the usual heart disease and other natural causes. Even more pathetic that the nation suffers under the Chimp more than it did under Saddam who was not humanity’s best friend either.
rwcole @ 22
or perhaps the last throes?
Well–If ya assume that North Viet Nam and South Viet Nam were separate countries (which of course begs the very point at issue)- then the war was BOTH a Civil War- and a plain ol vanilla war.
Sparkles the Iguana @ 33
Same problem with “winning,” “victory,” and “the mission.”
We can’t throw the baby out with the Ba’ath water.
-GSD
Another potentially accurate term:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_states
OK–cut the cord- the democracy’s been born—send em a thousand gallons of purple ink and lets get the fuck oughta here!!!!
House of Bush=Failed Estate.
-GSD
Democracy Supplies
5,000 gallons purple ink
20 million AK-47s
Have ya a ball guys- we got bigger fish ta fry!!
National Rifle Association has very high membership in Iraq.
The end of what. The American involvement in Vietnam was a tiny bump to them (I don’t mean to minimize the cost). Dopey ass was there two weeks ago saying that Vietnam was an example of why we shouldn’t bail on Iraq. Most Vietnamese don’t give a rats ass about marx/lenin/mao so what’s the lesson. Nobody knows what’s going to happen.shooogarp @ 28
Sparkles the Iguana @ 33
Does anyone have any patience to listen to their convoluted hemming and hawing anymore?
Not to mention it would probably be a thoroughly inhumane and despicable definition as you pointed out. So maybe according to them, if Iraq is only on the edge of organ failure, achem I mean genocide it is not yet a civil war.
You’ll get my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead, purple fingers.
-GSD
I liked Meg Greenfield. I was surprised to read that she, Will and Krauthammer were such buddies. But then as I type I remember how instrumental she was in spreading Gore-is-a-nerd stories based on her teen-age friendship with Nancy Gore, Al’s much older (in terms of childhood) sister.
I don’t know if I’d call all the Post’s liberal writers weak: Dionne, Robinson and Meyeron are all good. Ruth Marcus bats about 400, IMO. Cohen could only be considered “liberal” in a group that includes Will, Krauthammer, Novak, Hoagland, Mallaby (this little prick doesn’t get nearly the contempt he works so hard to earn), Old Lady Broder and the increasingly bewildering David Ignatius. It’s a problem of numbers, mostly, and the unsigned editorials (Hiatt’s) are all good ‘moderate’ Borderism on domestic policy (center-right, and all the country’s problems are the result of Democrat [sic] partisanship], and balls out crazy as Krauthammer neocon on foreign policy.
I read once that Donnie had for years been chomping at the bit to turn the paper right while Big Momma was around. I’m sure she and Mary McGrory are very disappointed in what they left behind.
The Wikipedia definition of “failed state” certainly applies to the Iraqi government, however the term doesn’t describe the nature of the current conflict.
“A state could be said to “succeed” if it maintains a monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force within its borders. When this is broken (e.g., through the dominant presence of warlords, militias, or terrorism), the very existence of the state becomes dubious, and the state becomes a failed state.”
Vietnam? Just a comma- or maybe a semi colon.
I want out of Iraq. I want a Palestinian homeland. And I will NOT vote for Clinton. ‘Principle’ has to assert itself sooner or later.
Utah is a failed state.
raven @ 44
Yeah & they kicked some Chinese ass. Something tells me the Iraqis could be as fierce as the Vietnamese toward their “helpful” neighbors. Well maybe not as fierce. It takes a 1000 years to get there.
Revolutionary war- exclamation point
War of 1812- hyphen
World War One - period
World War Two - colon
Viet Nam - semi colon
Iraq—-comma
History of warfare according to GW Bush.
I think the big difference there is that there is no such thing as an “Iraqi” but there sure as hell are Vietnamese!
mui @
52
this on top at think progress;
The bird of democracy may have flown the coop in America, but in Iraq, the eagle soars.
-GSD
raven @ 54
raven @ 54
I give in to your point. Artificially created states, etc. etc. etc.
Four years ago, Iraq was a socialist nightmare- fighting against the natural rythyms of the free enterprise system and with a dictator keepin the peace with an iron fist.
Now they’re FREE. Makes yer chest swell with pride don’t it?
Oh yikes. Don’t know what I did @57
Mui
I thought your point was a great one! You double pumped!
It could be worse, they could be parsing this statement:
Hmmmm…depends on what the meaning of is is. Right?
Using the current working definition of the Faux-Texan Deciderer-n-Chief and his happy band of White House travelers, the period of conflict in the 1860s was NOT a civil war, it was just a violent insurgency. Tony Snow yesterday:
See, in the 1860s, Jefferson Davis did not want to invade and occupy Vermont, he just wanted to have his Army of the Confederacy repel them damn Yankees.
Sherman did not want to occupy Atlanta, he just burned it and moved on to the sea.
So there you go, it’s just the same. The Civil War never happened by the 1600 Crew definition of “Civil War” because well, no one wanted territory and only the North wanted “power” over the South (it was that pesky Federalism thing or something, who really knows?).
Problem solved, history rewritten. Please don’t call it “The Civil War” anymore. It was the first Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism.
I thought they taught this at Yale. He must have skipped class that day. :)
perris @ 55
Fucking Warner, doesn’t he know we still have some bases to build and the pipelines are not even secured yet?
Since this posterior-covering starts on high . . .
I’ll bet there is an
civil warinsurgency going on right now in the WaPo newsroom.My Aunty has changed her mind. This old FDR Demo says it’s time to call it a day in Iraq. Good Lord this woman amazes me. This old girl quit going to school (that would be 91 years ago) in the third grade to help Mama and Papa pick cotton. Gawd, she’s fine. And so damn brilliant. If she doesn’t agree with me she can pick my arguments apart like nobody else can.
The Washington Post is way to the right of it’s home delivery market.
GSD @ 56
Ok, I could only listen until the singing began.
“With Purple Finger’s majesty- above the fruitless plains
I RAQ ee di I RAQ ee di
Allah shed his tears for thee
And crown thy war
With death an gore
Yer dead but now yer FREE!
Pat_AlexVA @
66
That Ashcroft song is probably used by Albo Gonzales as torture in Guantanimo.
-GSD
when the eagle’s sore
OT - Democrats win control of Pennsylvania House after 12 years in minority; Perzel out as speaker
GSD @ 56
Is that a dog howling in the background? And how come Asscroft is so clumsy with his mike?
punaise @ 69
Where’s the eagle sore?
rwcole @ 51
Or a successful theocracy.
scarecrow @ 73
with a stale fate
twolf1 @ 72
“Beak, ’cause the night belongs to U.S.”
It IS a civil war, according to Nicholas Sambanis, an Associate Professor of Political Science at Yale University.
Paul Collier and Nicholas Sambanis have co-edited two volumes with case studies of civil war that apply and expand the Collier-Hoeffler model of civil war onset:
Understanding Civil War: Evidence and Analysis, Volume 1: Africa
Understanding Civil War: Evidence and Analysis, Volume 2: Europe, Central Asia, and Other Regions.
He was on NPR today.
Jack
perris @ 55
A perfect example of the power of the words we use. Nothing has changed in what US forces actually do or have been doing for years. The only thing that changed is how the trad media described the reality, and that one change forced Warner to (apparently) change his position.
This is why Jane is focusing on the last holdouts of the *cough* respectable trad press in defining reality.
In case we’ve forgotten, I’m sure the WaPo editors, journalists and their competitors would love to see how the WaPo is perceived — SPOTLIGHT anyone?
Well, fuck, why even bother to have newpapers?
“MANCHESTER – Former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich yesterday said the country will be forced to reexamine freedom of speech to meet the threat of terrorism. Gingrich, speaking at a Manchester awards banquet, said a “different set of rules” may be needed to reduce terrorists’ ability to use the Internet and free speech to recruit and get out their message”
Shorter Newt: We gotta control the toobz because the librul blogs are helpin’ the terrarists.
Linky-thingy:
http://www.unionleader.com/art.....e=Gingrich raises alarm at event honoring those who stand up for freedom of speech&articleId=d3f4ee4e-1e90-475a-b1b0-bbcd5baedd78
mc @ 78
honest newt
shorter newt;We gotta control the toobz because the librul blogs are telling everyone what’s really going on
Michael Ware on CNN now.
Hey Newt, remember what Cheney said to Leahy? Yeah , do that.
RE:GSD @ 56
On the other hand in a comic sense it serves. Asscroft has a little bit of the swagger of someone who thinks he’s talented. Crooner/croaker style. Of course, he’d think that if most of his performances were before good ol’boy clubs and family members.
Jimmy Carter on Hardball
there should be a feature for those of us who get home - read a thread, and want to holler something right into the middle of of it…not that it would do any good, or be noticed, but - goddam it!
Ware looks positively haunted.
Thanks raven @ 85.
Or those of us who go to bed at 10pm on the east coast and miss all the great Trex led onslaughts!
jayt @ 86
Jim @ 47, Katherine Graham on Meg Greenfield: “Our friendship has endured and grown almost from the moment of her arrival at the Post.” (Graham’s acknowledgements in her Personal History)
rwcole @ 51
Huh? I’m sittin’ here watching it snow, I skied 18″ of fresh powder and no one tried to kill me because of my name.
perris @ 97
You are right.
The time is now.
mc @ 78
If speech is outlawed, only outlaws will be talking.
Might as well take a stab at another one of the Bill of Rights, while no one is looking.
Who are these FUCKS??? They sure as hell are not Americans!!
angie @
91
Me three. And isn’t it wonderful having David Schuster hosting Hardball? What a breath of intelligent fresh air.
re: Fat Newt’s blatherings about the First Amendment… is there anyone less relevant in American Politics right now than Newt Gingrich?
Well, maybe Mark Foley, but that’s a stretch.
Another myth debunked. They say hindsight is 20/20. The Post proves them wrong.
new thread
RevDeb @ 93
he wants to run, he needs to be drafted, it has to look like the country demanded his service
I’m telling you, if he runs on his own it will not be as effective, we need to start the draft gore movement, we have to make it look like he would be in deriliction of duty to refuse
time to start is now
GSD @
68
It’s been rumored that I was about to be offered solo acoustic gig at GITMO two years ago but it supposedly got cancelled due to some sort of “human rights” issue. I guess it’s possible they chose to use Ashcroft instead, but I Blame Clinton. ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war