
Others have already expressed their opinion on this post by Kevin Drum, including Digby, Atrios and Ezra Klein, so I'll add my two cents:
I hope the liberal blogosphere doesn't get into the habit of automatically trashing centrist positions simply out of pique against some of centrism's more annoying practitioners. After all, trying to govern solely via populist intuition won't work any better than relying on a bunch of blue ribbon commissions.
I like Kevin Drum, and if I called up Central Casting and said "send down a Centrist" he'd be the guy they'd dispatch. Reasonable, dad-like, a thoughtful guy who speaks in measured tones and would not look at all ill-suited riding a lawn mower. But these are largely aesthetic considerations, and by-in-large I think it is on this basis that the moniker "centrist" is handed out. And those who considers themselves thoughtful and reasonable assume that they are in the "center" of all things and that other thoughtful, reasonable people should agree with them and are likewise going to be "centrists."
In fact "centrism" is not antithetical to populism, and both are, in pure abstract terms, measurements. If an axis of opinion can be established with two discernable poles, then your opinion is "centrist" if there are equal numbers of those who stand to one side of you as another. If more people feel their interests lie on one side of the spectrum rather than another, it is generally assumed to have a populist base of support (as I believe Kevin is using the term here, contra elite "blue ribbon commissions"). And as Atrios notes, imposing a right/left dichotomy on most issues thus abstracted is both awkward and frequently misleading.
I don't think I've ever rejected a position simply because it was "centrist," it would be like having a problem with long division. Rather, I get a bit irked with the smug certainty of pundits and politicians who think the wisdom of their position should be respected because it is "centrist" when they have not in fact established that such a measurement is applicable, or why (if it is) this should lead to some knee-jerk assumption of validity.
If you were a big war hawk in 2002, you could rightfully be called a "centrist." Holding that same opinion today, as the High Priests of "bipartisan centrism" St. John McCain and Joe Lieberman do, places you on the extreme margins of public opinion and can by no definition reasonably be considered "centrist." As those of us who at the time of the invasion thought it was the pinnacle of stupidity are probably quick to remind everyone, the "centrism" of this hawkish position did not bestow upon it any kind of sagacity, no matter how much the "we were right to be wrong" crowd want to truss it up. The ability of most of the people to be fooled some of the time lends remarkably little honest intellectual cover to those who might seek safety in numbers.
Likewise, those of us who have made our bones bucking against what was considered to be what "most people thought" for the past six years are probably unlikely to accept it as any sort of measurement of wisdom. If the majority of people in the country approve of freedom of choice, and most of the people in the Democratic party feel likewise, I think there is a strong argument to be made that adopting it as a core Democratic value will not send people scurrying out the door. No more and no less. That does not make it defacto "right" any more than it would make it defacto "wrong" if we suddenly woke up tomorrow in Nicarauga.
Aesthetics are not metrics. John McCain's ability to laugh casually and tell a good joke on the Daily Show does not mean he is not morphing into a cynical right-wing wacko before our eyes. And those who want to invoke the "centrism" of their ideas are going to have to try a little harder to establish both that they are, and why we should care.
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fitz
ROOTZ!
Jane, hope you liked how the book salon turned out.
Re being in the center, people in Europe think we currently range from the right to the ridiculously far right. By Euro standards we have almost no left left.
I am one of those math geeks who is studying the graph graphic to see what information it contains.
Need a hobby or something. Hey I finished all my Christmas shopping for the kids! Time to celebrate.
egregious @
3
Egregious I was delighted in how the book salon turned out.
I wish I could have been more active, I was at the wedding at one of my best friends and could only sneak off to catch up on my Palm every now and again. Did fine without me, much thanks to you and others.
Positions like Newt Gingrich against free speech? How about against stem cells? Maybe against cleaning up corruption?
Yeah, the center of elite or the center of the people?
Jane Hamsher @ 6
Amazed that you showed up at all! A little obsessive maybe? And yes, we appreciate it. I hope you also enjoyed the wedding.
At one point Claudius Ptolemy was considered a centerist (in literal as well as theoretical terms). Any one who disagreed with his version of a universe where the earth was the center was not only out of ‘center’ but heretical in the eyes of the church. But, that kind of public opinion didn’t do too much for the fact that the little blue marble is an inconsequential planet at the far end of a spiral arm in a backwater galaxy. See what confirmed centerist ideas will get you. It just doesn’t matter, if you’re WRONG!
Jane Hamsher @ 5
I wondered about a couple of those time stamps.
So tell us about the wedding! What did you and others wear, and don’t spare the details. Shoes etc.
Terrific essay, Jane, and because I agree with all of it, you must be a “centrist.”
The astonishing thing about your statement is that its logic is so obvious, so compelling, yet this is about the first time anyone has pointed it out. It makes all the self-serving claims seem silly.
btw, I spotlighted your last post to the national tv anchors/hosts. This one, though, may require a more selective audience. Targets?
The only things in the center are dead armadillos and Joe Klein
I find it amazing that the media is focussing on how to define the war. So how many days or weeks will we be hearing the debate on whether or not it is a civil war? They do love to stroke one another don’t they?
David Ehrenstein @ 12
They should make a happy couple, they go together so well.
Dead skunks are also centrists. Also, in the spring, dead toads.
How about a return to Constitutional government, that was kinda the center when we had our first national argument.
Some compromises here and there to make it work, and the end result was something that held us together until about 2000.
Can we just get back to all that stuff that we zoomed thru in high school civics class: checks and balances, tripartite government, right to petition for grievances?
It’s a lot easier than explaining how we got into it and how we should get out of it.
The center of what? Everything’s all mixed-up anymore. In this era of wiretaps and no-fly lists, the so-called big-government Left is a heckuva lot more libertarian than the nominally self-reliant Right which has a hard-on for all manner of government authority.
I think to chart the “center” nowadays, one would need multiple axes: libertarian/authoritarian, labor interests/capital interests, communitarian/individualism. In discussing issues, the punditocracy often ignores one (or two) of these dichotomies (usually how something benefits the interests of Capital).
RevDeb @ 12
I think that battle is mostly over, and it happened in about 24 yours. NBC, then CBS (thanks to Lara Logan) and CNN (the amazing Michael Ware), plus the NYT (Ed Wong, Dexter Filkins, and several others). This leaves the remaining “stay the course” media looking like “head-in-sanders,” (and realists like Dana Priest looking embarrassed) because the public can see the reality on their screens. The new language is in, and so [the perception of] “reality” has changed overnight, and it will further erode support for the war, as in Warner’s case.
I find McCain’s appearances on TDS more curious each time he does it. Jon is on to him, yet he plays along.
What is it going to take for the low information voter to understand what these people are really about? LIEberman and St. John continue to fool them. We have so much work to do.
OT: Kos takes a stand for those dangerous “SF Values”:
egregious @
10
Same DVF I wore for Big Dog, but with flats. Too much time on my feet dancing with all the kids.
The center is empty.
Poltical centrism in Blogtopia? (y! sctp). Outside of Kevin Drum, who has been as you point out, a Central Casting Centrist since he was writing at CalPundit I wonder how well “centrists” play political philosophers out here in the world.
The centrists, it seems to me would have sat on the Judy Miller story, preferring to see how it broke in the Post or Times before talking about it. The Centrists, would have been hoping that there were WMDs still to be found even as Beloved Leader was looking for them under his desk for the video at that DC insiders dinner (ha ha! so funny!). Centrists want Hillary and Obama, because somehow they’re not “us” (the dirty smelly hippie contingent).
I’m sorry if I don’t buy the Centrists arguments. If the Centrists were where the party needed to be we would have been looking at another unhappy election day, instead of the results we got. Indeed, the Carville episode proves that the “triangulators” wanted to be back in charge by dumping Howard Dean, and thankfully those “sensible Centrists” were repulsed. The only thing at the end of the “third way” is a dead-end sign and the city dump.
As to the graph. I’d like to see at least a couple more points.
egregious @
5
check out this Edward Tufte’s fascinating work in graphic representation of data and information
Oklahoma kiddo @ 24
P(8,-2), P(-4,6.5)
Ed Rogers, on Hardball, has to puke in his shoe as he attempts to defend Clusterfuck’s latest pronouncements (We have to not come down to hard on the president’s choice of language when he says all the problems in Iraq are being caused by Al Queda..”
Roger’s seems ta be sayin- “well sure the president’s lyin his ass off again- but golly gee- he just suffered a serious loss an all- so let’s be nice to him”
(PUKES IN SHOE- RETURNS TO CAMERA)
I will again point to one of my favorite articles in the Prospect, Paul Waldman’s “The Liberal Moderates”, showing how the opinions of self-identified moderates on the issues are much closer to liberal positions than conservative ones, despite the assumption that the “center” is halfway between.
Conservatives’ deliberate demonization of the word “liberal” has made fewer people identify as liberal, but it hasn’t actually made people more conservative.
World’s Smallest Political Quiz
Redshift @
29
An important point, and one that I think Turdblossom missed in his last marketing plan.
Jane
Your two cents I understand best.
Now how about the meaning of life.
twolf1 @ 30
I’m stunned to be smack-dab in the “Left Liberal” quadrant.
Your PERSONAL issues Score is 80%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 30%.
Awwrsh! I recall getting into this along w/many others back in Calpundit days. Kevin as a marketer is everything that I don’t miss of my old suit-centric ad agency partners: a desire to be about something different, with none of the pain of differentiation. In fact, its a good bet Kev is emblematic of the professional and political managerial classes that have gotten us into just today’s kinda cleft stick: passion is unwelcome and a sign of “unprofessional” lack of distance. Ignoring it makes them feel more comfortable, but ultimately much more vulnerable to undermining or irrelevance. While he (and other, “professional” (D)s) denies the fact and power of emotion that makes him uncomfortable, (R)s stole his moolah, his freedom and many of his options.
Make no mistake, his “centrist” “techno populists” are clothing their own gut *desires*–desire for comfort and a smooth life in the MOR corporate $ machine –with soulless buzzwords and powerpoints. And say what you will, when Rs were in the Goldwater wilderness and Newt was a lad, they discovered that extremes of emotion and position meant everything, to life itself, and to who voted.
Kev, it’s time you blogged about marketing again. You’ll do less damage that way.
Bullseye as per usual Jane. I want to ask Kevin Drum if he treasures “moderation” in his wife’s faithfullness to their marriage vows? Wouldn’t it be a little extreme of her to be a 100% faitfull? Shouldn’t she have at least a few affairs just to adopt a more centrist position?
The point is to adopt policies that are intelligent and coherent wrt reality. Does Kevin think adopting a “moderate” postion wrt the Flat Earth Society will change the earth’s shape?
OT, David Gergan and Robin Wright on Hardball both confirmed that Saudi Arabia summoned DeadEye to Riyadh, I hadn’t heard that before.
scarecrow @ 26
I see your point.
Your economics explained
http://www.usatoday.com/money/.....htm?csp=24
This is an excellent example of the new shiny Upside-Down Economic Theory. It’s good to know that the economy is doing solidly except for two minor areas: housing and manufacturing. These have contributed almost nothing to the country, outside of the dubious distinction of being largely responsible for the creation and maintenance of the middle class.
Indeed Bernanke and the Fed need to be watchful. The monster of inflation is waiting in the wings garbed in that most insidious of all evils, increased wages. I know, I know some of you bleeding hearts out there think that increased wages are a good thing but you don’t understand economics. See, if you take profit and spend it on wages, that’s inflationary and you are a terrible person, and a bad economist. But if you take the same profits and spend them delivering capital gains to investors, well, that’s what I call just plain patriotic (and just good business) and I would salute you –if I didn’t have this tear in my eye. Hope this clears things up.
Bravo, Jane, bang up post, this.
I’ve noticed that I’ve drifted farther to the left, the more that our government has drifted to the right. I wouldn’t have thought that possible, but taking the Political Compass survey each year since 2001 made it graphically clear.
Economic Left/Right: -5.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.92
Used to be closer to -5.00/-6.00.
I’ve often wondered whether most progressives felt the same way — in which case, the center moved just as you’ve described, and will continue to move.
Being “reasonable” and “thoughtful” is only a description of a lack of passion, or at least that’s how I now feel, after years of fascist leadership.
scarecrow @ 27
Ah I see. Now I’m starting to visualize slopes and intersections.
punaise @
33
You gave it 110%
OT alert, but I believe this is an important issue also. I recieved an email from John Edwards One America Committee about Darfur.
If you would be interested to participate in a letter campain to ask for assistance the link is Help Darfur
Thanks to any and all who read this.
About centrism, I remain equivocal.
Jane, the Atlantic might be interested in hiring one or more bloggers, for pay, either part-time or full-time. They don’t know which yet. I might have some input. Your ideas?
punaise @
33
Hey, get off of me!
ahh, fuck it. I’m going to stay far left.
twolf1 @ 40
inflation: 110 is the new 100.
Where exactly is the axis of evil? Can we plot it?
whoopsies, big time liberal and proud of it!
I’m a liberal and I’m ok
I sleep all night and I work all day
She’s a liberal and she’s okay
She sleeps all night and she works all day
punaise @ 46
I was your neighbor at:
Your PERSONAL issues Score is 90%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 20%.
twolf1 @ 49
flaming kneejerk bleeding heart wacko! :~)
punaise @ 33
Personal= 100%
economic = 40%
Liberal with capital letters.
hmmm, I’m a Liberal Libertarian? Who woulda thunk that?
100% 50%
Oklahoma kiddo @ 47
cue the hyperbole
I think we fdl folk are innovators and early adopters. Anybody remember the rest of the curve?
Ok enough laziness. Here from wiki:
Everett Rogers Diffusion of innovations theory - for any given product category, there are five categories of product adopters:
innovators – venturesome, educated, multiple info sources
early adopters – social leaders, popular, educated
early majority – deliberate, many informal social contacts
late majority – skeptical, traditional, lower socio-economic status
laggards – neighbours and friends are main info sources, fear of debt
60/40
angie @ 48
I put on women’s clothing and hang around in bars…but that doesn’t make me liberal. The use of the Ode d’Frankfurter, however, THAT could be considered liberal!
punaise @ 53
Ok guys let’s not go off on a tangent here.
egregious @ 56
must you be so elliptical?
What? The pap about “bipartisanship” wasn’t flying so Kevin Drum is trying repackage it as “centrism”? Another one I have heard is a “return to comity”, you know be nice to the Republicans like they were nice to . . .errr just be nice to the Republicans. Yeah, that’s the ticket. That’s why we have elections: to either elect Republicans or be nice to them.
I’ve thought of myself as just left of center for decades and only in recent years officially became a democrat. As a WASP I’ve often had agreement with conservatives over the years though we may not vote for the same people we may agree on issues and policies.
It is only since the impeachment in ‘98 and election in 2000 that the old paradigm had shifted with the rise and consummation of the Southern Strategy.
The center Kevin Drum speaks of (and I’m a very big fan of his) often seems to reflect the definition I lived with for years but have abandoned.
Just so some of you know before attacking my old school ways, I was against the invasion of Iraq, the NSA over reach, the medicare deal etc.
Republican elders of the type I used to know and respect seemed to fall silent or extinct in the face of a simple little school yard bully with a famous last name and a gang of Christian fundamentalists behind him.
The center
Of the backseat
Of a car
Headed off a cliff
Is no place
To be.
Nice work, Jane!
And you’re absolutely right on grounds both political and mathematical: it’s imperative to define the proper reference frame before projecting any topic onto some axis where “the center” might be found.
For example, the whole “right and left” or “conservative and liberal” notions are meaningless when considering current administration actions — the natural polarity relevant to the actions of Bush administration is a scale reflecting competence in government.
And what is “centrism” on a scale ranging from “incompetent” to “competent”, anyway? Would 50% competent be what we desire in the effective governance of our great land? Somehow, I don’t think so, and so what does “centrist” mean in this set of metrics, anyway?
Pundits who insist on projecting the miscues of this administration onto scales involving red-vs-blue political stripe or the presence/absence of progressive leanings are missing the point of the problem here.
Perhaps they just don’t have a clue, or maybe they are deliberately trying to hide information, but they’re simply on the wrong page, and the good folks at Firedoglake are to be commended for “doing the math” correctly here.
Your PERSONAL issues Score is 90%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 40%.
(last year, at Political Compass: around -3.4, -5.6)
punaise @ 53
And speaking of conics, we don’t mean parabolic. And pass the asymptotes.
earnest Kevin Drum is a good egg in my book - even if he lacks the go-for-the-jugular instinct. I know where to look for that.
Political positions are relative, as you point out quite well, Jane. Unfortunately, few folks seem to think that way, probably due to some unfortunate experiences with calculus classes (dissected in a prior thread).
I find it more helpful to distinguish the relative positions rather than focus on the people who hold them. Looking at the people who claim the name of Centrist, too many seem to do so because they believe that the world revolves around them. These are the folks that tick me off.
Damn that’s some good writing, Jane.
ekppp @
60
Oh, excellent ziggurat poem!
The center
ceo @ 32
“Try to stop unnecessary suffering. Be in awe of beauty and truth.”
———The Meaning Of Life, egregious, 11/28/06
don’t forget the z axis…
I tried reading Kevin Drum regularly, way back before his current digs…but he was right of Josh Marshall, and even Josh drives me whacko from time to time with his occasional flirtation with Likud-leaning positions.
Have long had another suspicion about the make up of blog readership across the most read blogs; the more “centrist” they were, the more men read them both in percentage and volume. The right-wing blogs tended to draw more men by percentage, but not in quantity over centrist blogs.
Maybe that’s why I ended up here, as a woman and a blogger; the stuff that matters to me isn’t in a centrist fuzzy gray zone, and is not at all to be found at the right.
punaise @ 57
I rather feel more circular. At the moment.
egregious @ 68
“42″
(”Deep Thought,” per Douglas Adams)
The working definition of “centerist” for most americans is “people who think the same way I do”..
Most people think they are in the center- whether they are or not.
punaise @ 69
zaxis? like taxis?
I node that
Personal= 100%
economic = 30%
Does that give me 130%? Or 70%?
It seems that “economic = 30%” is about where
I am on the ladder of economic success. Is there
a correlation here? Or is it me?
Peterr @ 71
“Enjoying the passage of time.” -James Taylor
P J Evans — please take the Political Compass again, if the score you posted above is more than a year old. Curious to see how it turns out now.
twolf1 @ 30
Looks like I’m pretty far left:
Personal: 100
Economic: 20
The limits of limits are limitless.
punaise @ 74
That’s exactly what my cosine said. He’s reverse polish.
johnSwifty @ 67
yes, but it’s not in Ilambic diameter.
At the risk of causing some eye-rolling and head scratching, I’ll trot out a concept I’ve found a little more useful in decoding American politics than Left - Center - Right. If I recall my history correctly, left and right refer back to the French Revolution, to which side of the national legislature partisans chose to sit.
Writer, commentator, and sometime conservative Jerry Pournelle came up with a model I still think is a better way to sort out where poltical positions fall: two perpendicular axes. One ranks attitudes towards statism - that is government is the source of all good versus government is the source of all evil. The other axis extends between rational versus irrational views on how the world/society works.
The whole thing is laid out here at wikipedia The simplistic labels on the axes are explained in a little more detail, and some political schools of thought are laid out as examples. For a fuller explanation in Pournelle’s own words, you can read his version here.
Center takes on a very different meaning when you try to locate it according to the criteria Pournelle chose. Regarding social security, wiretapping, or any other issue one might care to debate, it would be a useful step to try mapping different views against these axes - just saying left or right really doesn’t give enough information. And, you’d have to do it issue by issue as it can’t be assumed that people will treat every issue consistently.
In fact, I think I’ve just come up with a topic for anyone who is facing having to produce a thesis for Political Science: select a set of issues, develop a methodology to map an individual’s placement of each one according to the Pournelle axes, and use the resulting plot to create a kind of political fingerprint, much like a scatterplot. This would be a very useful tool in looking for political allies or in trying to find weak spots in political alliances. (It’s rather like the technique Miles Vorkosigan used to plot strategy in getting two allies seated in his world’s senior legislative body in “A Civil Campaign” by Lois McMasters Bujold.
grid and bear it.
punaise @ 81
And the feet alternate on the steps.
“Cramer’s Rule”, rules. With respect to solving for three variables that is.
Broder: paleocentrist
Brazile: Afrocentrist
Gingrich: Nazicentrist
Hannity: retardocentrist
Larry Roth @ 82
There’s two kinds of people in the world, those who read Miles Vorkosigan and those who don’t
johnSwifty mentioned Ptolemy. I was thinking more along the lines of Newtonian mechanics. A privileged frame implies a single center. This was fuzzy thinking, no doubt due to the ether they needed for the theory to work. But as Einstien realized there are no privileged frames so every frame has its center. The rest as they say is relative.
johnSwifty @ 87
uh ooooh. . . .
This notion of “centrism,” to my mind, is a smokescreen, and one largely contrived by a media driven progressively rightward by the right-wing Wurlitzer. It’s meant to suggest many things it clearly is not. For that reason, it acts as propaganda–something meant to stimulate an emotion which masks and overwhelms critical thought.
As a label, it’s not accurate, and is rapidly becoming meaningless. It’s a convenient handle for the media to use to promote any conventional wisdom the right wing chooses, e.g., Joe Lieberman is a “centrist.” “John McCain is a maverick Republican, tending toward centrism.”
That is intended to encourage me not to think, “they’re assholes.”
Mary McCurnin @ 89
There are two kinds of people in the world, those who go, “uh ooooh. . . .” and those who don’t. There’s actually an exponential scale for that one, kinda like the Richter scale.
I want out of Iraq now. Goddammit. I am not being right, center or left. I want our soldiers home.
Drum’s centrism is reminiscent of Bill and Hillary’s triangulating. From this perspective, the center is to be found somewhere between the right and the far right.
montag @ 90
I think that you are right.
and a big LOL for your last sentence!
Rayne, cool test! Now I know what all those numbers are at kos.
egr:
Economic Left/Right: -2.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.77
Quick explanation. Ec–I believe in helping people improve their economic situations but you’ve gotta keep the overall economy humming too. Soc–I believe in freedom for people, with the minimum necessary social and government structure to keep things from spiraling out of control.
johnSwifty @ 92
Exponents? Are we talking roots?
I just did my roots this morning.
The right wing defining the center: a slippery slope.
Mary McCurnin @ 98
Square or cubed?
egregious @ 99
And the slope of that slope is a negative resultant.
Pun-ditry FDL style, I love it.
egregious @ 99
delta Y over delta X.
Mary McCurnin @ 98
I love Alex Haley!
egregious @ 43
(*waves arms frantically, then tries to look nonchalant*)
Mary McCurnin @ 97
It’s kind of cold here, so I’m getting ready to do some logs.
Fundraiser for esten in western NC on dec 9th. Will provide details if interested.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 100
No, actually, color brilliance creme permanent hair color 8N-8.0
johnSwifty @ 104
I believe he was a cube root.
I’d like to think it’s more complicated than this, but honestly I don’t.
A centrist is someone whose position is just far enough to the left to not draw open derision from Limbaugh or Fox News.
It would be nice if there were some deeper ideological underpinning, but I don’t think there is.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 109
A derivative of some sort, for sure.
Peterr @ 106
logs have rhythm.
Peterr @ 106
I’m so poor I’ve had to resort to burning the furniture. Thank goodness for log tables….
Why have I never realized what an ass Pentagon correspondent Jim Miklashevski is. He just said on the NBC Nightly News that al Qaeda was not a reason why we invaded Iraq. This is no doubt why on May 1, 2003 Bush aboard the USS Lincoln of Mission Accomplished fame said:
johnSwifty @ 111
I would equation that to be differential.
montag @ 113
And slide-rules.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 115
I would’ve thought that Haley was a big fan of integration.
Oklahoma kiddo @
47
Located right smack in the center of that artificial pump passing itself off as Cheney’s “heart.”
Joseph Conrad wrote a story about it:
“Heart of Darkness”
OfT
Video: US Soldiers Taunt Iraqi Kids with Bottled Water
by Fatherflot [Subscribe] from DKos
Tue Nov 28, 2006 at 02:30:35 PM PST
Swopa @ 105
v funny. I’ll let Jane and Christy know when there’s more to say. The mag itself doesn’t know yet.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 103
Wasn’t that starring John Belushi?
John, dab from CT (I think) shared that video last week (I think)
Tragic and cruel and perfectly awful.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 109
My sister personally knows someone whose last name is Root, who proposed to his now wife on Square Root Day.
Well, on Fox this morning they were trying to draw a distinction between a “civil war” and a “communitarian war”… They spent 8 whole minutes of airtime on laying out the finer points of distinction. Apparently, the new spin is that it’s the latter, and not the former, whatever that means, and as if it makes any difference whatsoever to the fact that we’re losing. Even the guest panelists were confused.
Hugh @ 114
Peterr @
65
Precisely! You pre-empted the point I wanted to make, beautifully. (That’s what I get for popping into the thread late in the day.)
If you believe that you’re the center of the known universe (or at least, the universe which matters), then of course, you’re automatically a “centrist.” The “sensible” part then goes without saying.
All hail Ptolemy!
I had an epiphany while watching John Ashcroft sing “Let the Eagle Soar”.
I am now over at Redstate if you need me.
-GSD
montag @ 117
He was. And like Mr. Haley I prefer integers. But irrational numbers can be irritating. Within limits. Of course.
egregious @ 120
Correct. As usual.
Thanks angie, this Kos diary was the first I’d heard of it.
angie….
Thanks for the heads up on Carter on Hardball. It’s just starting now here.
Sometimes I have my roots done at Slippery Slope Salon but today it seems like an uphill battle.
Wolf Blitzer sayin that the religious right may be comin apart on account of some of em want to stone gays to death and others don’t.
its interesting that you pick kevin as a poster boy for centracism. Not because kevin’s positions are centrist, and not because he is even-keeled. No its interesting because the standout characteristic I find in kevin drum is that he doesn’t believe in anything. kevin is just a follower with a mild-mannered, pleasing shtick disguised as reasoned analysis. And, in one important respect he’s no different in action from the phantasmagorical cult of republicanism that makes an end decision and then invents ways to justify that decision.
Although ostensibly presenting the front of something of a lefty-liberal-progressive, kevin can be persuaded to believe in anything. Case in point, his support for the illegal, unnecessary invasion of Iraq. Although most could easily write that off as a one-off mistake and easily give kevin a mulligan because he’s such a nice guy, and happily invite back into the club of outstanding liberals, the fact of the matter is that I am 100% convinced that kevin learned nothing fundamental about himself from his disastrously bloody mistake and given similar (not the same, but similar) circumstances he would make EXACTLY THE SAME MISTAKE TODAY.
So that brings to me to wonder if the true definition of a centrist isn’t someone who doesn’t believe in anything and is happy being muddled in the middle of undefinedness. I’m not committing that its a good definition, just wondering. But I am certain that kevin and many like him do not do lessons learned (because they don’t understand why they make the decisions they do).
.
Gotta go watch Jimmy on tv.
John Casper @ 128
so sad, that.
I am glad that it continues to be spread around. As dab said, it should be shown on every news show from now until we leave.
Mary– it’s worth it, imho. Jimmy is doing the world a huge service.
Bush is showing every sign of gearing up to bomb either Syria or Iran or a combination of the two.
-GSD
Grammar Police Warning:
It’s not “by-in-large”, it’s by and large
This has been a warning from the Grammar Police. It’s stupid, but we do it for love :-)
Mary McCurnin @ 129
Your hairdresser’s named Sisyphus?
I am making my comment before reading anyone comments, so I apologize if I have stated what everyone else has.
Jane, absolutely great post and thank you. I always, before the fool became prez that is, thought of myself as a conservative dem. There are several issues on which I am definitely on the conservative side.
But how do I plot my political leanings when 1) I strongly believe in what Howard Dean was saying in his run for the prez and 2) believe that stronger border security is a good idea.
Kevin Drumm often drives me to distraction and find myself yelling at the screen. He is actually doing what the republicans are doing — striving to mitigate his strong support for this terrible war.
David Gergen on Hardball looked and sounded grim- kept sayin that Clusterfuck may turn a failure in Iraq into a catastrophe..
egregious @ 122
Square Root Day? Does this have to do with square tubers?
Agh. All this roots talk is making me morose. Missed my appt. with my beautician because I’d stupidly auto-scheduled it for the week of the elections. Weeks later, I look the hag — Roots Central. Might have to break down and get a box of 6N if I can’t get in on a stand-by soon.
Larry Roth — that “World’s Smallest Political Test” linked up thread sorts people along the very axes you describe, statist or personal governor. But then the site is published to promote Libertarianism, neglects the X axis for the Y axis (or vice versa).
The Political Compass test also linked up thread does the same thing, but with greater granularity and along both X-Y axes. (egregious: no explanation necessary, the numbers speak for themselves. I worry only when I run into someone who’s not a negative-negative, vowing to stay away from positive-positives.)
(I guess Gergen is a centerist).
apikoros @ 136
Not to be confused with the porn featuring swinging plump folks “Bi and Large”.
-GSD
Q: Is SecDef Rumsfeld the worst SecDef ever?
Carter: Uh, I can’t deny it…
Wish I could have heard the rest over my gleeful pleased laughter.
Excellent writing Jane but I disagree with your closing. McCain doesn’t have to ‘morph’ he’s already there which he amply demonstrated with his callous Happy Birthday moment. The man has always been a scumbag and always will.
Do you think we can get the NVA to take him back?
Oh, right… there is no NVA any more.
Too bad.
President Carter. And this man is 82 years young! Carter humbles me.
Oh score! The Pennsylvania legislature is going to go to the Democrats! The last election was decided by 23 votes. Get out the vote indeed.
Linky from twolf on last thread.
Listening to Carter I remember what it’s like to hear an adult talk about foriegn policy. It just makes me sad to think about what we could have had these last six years if so many of the ‘Murkans hadn’t wanted a fake redneck for president.
I am NOT a centrist if it means staying in Iraq or supporting the treatment of the Palestinians. And…
The American people wanted to have a beer with a man who doesn’t drink.
What a bunch of maroons.
-GSD
Amen, Riesz.
Mourned last night after watching the PBS American Experience bio on RFK, too. A man that read and quoted Aeschylus. Damn.
And now we have a dry drunk former coke head who had to buy his way through life, and thinks he’s going to buy his way out of a Middle Eastern civil war he started.
Carter. I love this human being.
Hey, looks like Jim Webb and Fredo had words…
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2....._1128.html
Semper Fi Senator, next time give him a verbal beating!
If I’m in a car that has just driven over a cliff, would it be better if I’m in the center?
Rayne @ 152
Oh Bobby… I miss you so.
Twisted Martini @ 154
Hoo-rah and GO WEBB!
The US military always seems to think that it is better to let people think that US planes and helicopters just crash into the ground without cause as opposed to telling the media that it was hit by a missile or groundfire.
-GSD
GSD @ 136
Iran not Syria. Syria would piss off the Saudis.
You do NOT mess with Webb. Marine. Boxer. Senator-Elect.
:)
The treatment of the Palestinians IS racist. Through and through.
Rayne @ 141
If you’re like me (and I suspect you are) you will find yourself naturally gravitating *away* from positive-positives. No need to vow anything.
For example, if any of you are of a certain age, you will be annoyed to remember a certain young people’s singing group, called “Up With People.” They chirped more than sang, actually. Their function was mostly to prove, back in the late 60’s to early 70’s, that there were cheery, chirpy, smiley-faced, non-dirty-hippy young people in abundance. [They also sang on Nixon’s campaign trail, IIRC.]
I knew someone who belonged to this embarrassing outfit — and steered a huge detour around her whenever she appeared at any social function I attended. She thought it highly unpatriotic of me to *not* want to see more GI’s slaughtered in Vietnam to defend the homeland from the dangerous domino effect. Smart money says she would have registered as a positive-positive back then.
Surely, Rayne, you have good radar for this sort of thing too.
I never knew that Chimpy’s nickname was “Fredo”.
GWB is a block head. And that is the root of it.
estiv @
110
I think that’s as good a functional definition as any I’ve seen.
Mr. Carter, take a well-deserved bow sir.
Carter: You can talk about Rwanda, I want to talk about Palestine.
egregious @ 160
Do not mess with Chimpy. Boy cheerleader. Afraid of horses. President select.
;)
Carter smacks Shuster and Shuster shuts up. President Carter is amazing.
Rayne @ 142
Hey I work in public health. I am always cautious around people who score positive on tests.
Average, mediocre, ordinary - all words that could be used interchangeably with center or centrist - except they haven’t been blessed by the so-called sages placed in charge of our national political discussion by the media.
OT - update on Net Neutrality at TPM Cafe.
Rayne: Agh. All this roots talk is making me morose. Missed my appt. with my beautician because I’d stupidly auto-scheduled it for the week of the elections. Weeks later, I look the hag — Roots Central. Might have to break down and get a box of 6N if I can’t get in on a stand-by soon.
You look beautiful just the way you are!
rwcole @ 139
My guess is that’s a shot across the bows from “Jimmy” Baker, most of the GOP, and Daddy, delivered by one of the most prodigous leakers in DC, David Gergen.
Gore/Clark. Feingold for Sec. of State. Edwards for Attorney General.
Interstate 10 closed for Cheney hunting trip.
Rayne @ 151
We saw that here, and recorded it as a keeper.
Lots and lots of tears shed, again. It makes the heart hurt badly.
I think we’ll be going to see “Bobby.” It’ll be the first time we go to the movies since way back when, before my accident. Being seated in one position for any length of time is painful, but in this case I think the pain will be worth it. It’s the least I can do to help this film stay in theaters a long time — the reports from young people being deeply moved by this movie are very encouraging.
kirk murphy @ 171
These days, that is acting in the interest of public safety….
Rayne–people whose roots need tending because of the election are patriotic in the way that people with dying lawns are in a drought.
Maybe you’ll start a new trend.
He’s gonna hunt cars?
montag @ 174
gotta keep the people out of scatterplot range
Asshat alert: On the NewsHour, a Donald Kagan, a Yale professor and no relation to Fred except for the nuttiness, lambasting those who call Iraq a civil war and use it “to flee our responsibilities.” Geez, where do they dig up these fossils?
punaise @ 176
And away from Cheney’s scattershot plots….
Rayne –
About 15 minutes ago I posted the following reply to your comment about avoiding “positive-positives,” but I got stuck in moderation because I forgot to check the url line (it got filled automatically by the bogus “deleted” which flags the system). So apologies in advance for posting something here which’ll probably end up appearing again later. :-)
“If you’re like me (and I suspect you are) you will find yourself naturally gravitating *away* from positive-positives. No need to vow anything.
For example, if any of you are of a certain age, you will be annoyed to remember a certain young people’s singing group, called “Up With People.” They chirped more than sang, actually. Their function was mostly to prove, back in the late 60’s to early 70’s, that there were cheery, chirpy, smiley-faced, non-dirty-hippy young people in abundance. [They also sang on Nixon’s campaign trail, IIRC.]
I knew someone who belonged to this embarrassing outfit — and steered a huge detour around her whenever she appeared at any social function I attended. She thought it highly unpatriotic of me to *not* want to see more GI’s slaughtered in Vietnam to defend the homeland from the dangerous domino effect. Smart money says she would have registered as a positive-positive back then.
Surely, Rayne, you have good radar for this sort of thing too.”
kirk murphy @ 174
I thought we left royalty in Europe long about 1789 or so…
rwcole @ 140
Too late.
Shared Humanity @
155
Better, I think, to be outside the car, provided you got there before the car left the cliff.
To me the ‘centrists’ are just the same as those in high school that would follow the ‘cool’ kids around and obey their orders just to ‘fit in.’ Always trying to rationalize why they never take a strong stand and ‘just say no’ to anything the cool kids want to do.
These are the very people we should never listen to because they can be influenced so easily.
Oh these people.
Cheney is vacationing after a vigorous two hour meeting with the Saudis.
Go kill some fluffy things you ghoul.
Hey Dubya, time to slap the cigarettes and gin bottles out of your daughter’s hands and send them to Walter Reed as candystripers.
-GSD
new thread
egregious @ 177
If so, I’m happy to say that I too am very trendy.
MayDaze @ 181
STONE TEMPLE PILOTS
“Interstate Love Song”
Hugh @ 180
The Yale prof said that Civil War was just a term that was used by those against the war. It was only used as propaganda unlike the terms that Bush uses I guess. I had to leave the room, so missed most of the interview.
apikoros @
137
Punctuation police, commas go inside the quotes…I think…oh who cares.montag @
138
Camus, rinse, repeat!
JPL @ 191
Actually, I don’t think they called it the Civil War. It was called the War between the States.
Jane Hamsher @
165
I make an absolute point about NEVER using Limbaugh for defining anything more involved than a biological function. Pick another, please.
Left of Dalai Lama this time. last time I took the test I was on top of his spot.
Economic Left/Right: -7.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.08
Riesz — aw, that was just too nice of you. Shucks.
egregious — that’ll be me, the patriotic skunk-head with the dead lawn. ;-)
Mrs. K8 — OMG. Up With People??? KAA-aack!!! I am definitely old enough not only to worry about roots but to remember those excessively perky pastel-wearing freaks and wondering what kind of drugs those goopers were on, having been forced to attend a mandatory program featuring their nauseous pastel-ness. I will confess to going to school with a beauty queen that also went on to a career of performing with a similar group, came from a moneyed background; yet another “positive-positive”. But I also know that chick is majorly f*cked up, been dried out a few times, married the worst sort of men three times. Perfect example of why staying away from the “positive-positive” type is a shrewd move: you’re clear of the debris field when they fall apart.
rwcole @
140
That’s exactly the kind of comment that moves us towards that moment when a delegation pays a visit to the WH to tell them it’s time to go. More please. Gergen is old school, and remembers Nixon.
Thanks for this post Jane. Love it as usual.
Thanks for pointing out yet again that more than half the country is pro-choice.
Take that Reich wingers!
You rock!
Jane wrote:
Absolutely spot-on, Jane. Bless your heart. I can’t figure out how seemingly intelligent observers are paying no attention to the bizarre stuff McCain is saying, and is not even trying to hide.
Does all this mean that ‘Centrism’ is the new ‘Higher Broderism’?
Frankly, I’m a little confused….
Except for the fact that if it’s published, filmed, videoed or mouthed in the Corporatist Media….
It is quite simply a lie.
If you apply this simple rule you will not be far off the mark in figuring out what the pathetic AssClowns of the ReichWing want you to do, think, feel.
Rayne @
142
Yes, the Political Compass test is quite similar, possibly even derivative. I think Pournelle’s post does a bit better job explaining the logic behind the axes though and sorting schools of political thought, while the Compass demonstrates how the axes could be applied to individuals. They’re complementary.