JOE! Wilson, that is…

JOE!

KEITH O!

Jane and Fitz!

DIPLOMACY!

KO doing the show from L.A. talking about the Civil War a la Cronkite, “The way it is.”

Get out of Iraq now! End the gulag that is Gaza!

Craig Crawford on KO saying that if the WH were in a 12 step program they still wouldn’t get past the 1st step of admitting there is a problem. Denial.

Jane – As a Viet Nam era draft dodger I know zip about military tactics, but as I recall the exit from Saigon was pretty hairy. That said, I venture a guess that the flowers that were missing on our troops’arrival might be evident lining the path to the airport on the way out. I don’t see that any faction would gain by making an American exit difficult, but then this is clearly not my field of expertise.

Wow. Brutally honest, well-informed and levelheaded comment by Mr. Wilson.

Imagine if noron odonnell ever got hold of it.

Would the even be willing to negotiate a cease fire long enough for us to leave? Problem is that this admin. has no intention of leaving. Permanent bases anyone?

in a similar vein, George Packer via Kevin Drum:

Iraq is well and truly lost, he says, but a lot of Iraqis who worked with us and trusted us will die hideous deaths if we abandon them:

Those Iraqis who have had anything to do with the occupation and its promises of democracy will be among the first to be killed: the translators, the government officials, the embassy employees, the journalists, the organizers of women’s and human rights groups.

….If the United States leaves Iraq, our last shred of honor and decency will require us to save as many of these Iraqis as possible. In June, a U.S. Embassy cable about the lives of the Iraqi staff was leaked to The Washington Post. Among many disturbing examples of intimidation and fear was this sentence: “In March, a few staff approached us to ask what provisions would we make for them if we evacuate.” The cable gave no answer. The U.S. Embassy in Baghdad does not issue visas.

OT:

http://news.aol.com/dailypulse…..0000000001

aol users and YOU can weigh in on your confidence in chimpy . . .

not looking good for clusterfuck at the moment1

When I read Ambassador Joe’s words on Sunday (cited above) to my friend, he nodded his head and said, “this is the worst thing we have done as a Nation. Iraq and Afghanistan and so much more.”

Whatever course is chosen, one thing is becoming patently clear, it will be a maneuver or series of maneuvers that require the most deft touch in terms of diplomatic measures combined with military expertise. Frankly, this administration has shown absolutely no ability in those regards. In fact, they have gone a long way towards proving they are the worst in history. I worry greatly for our kids over there. They deserve so much better and I don’t know where they will get it with this crew. If I was a praying man, I’d start praying hard right now and I wouldn’t let up until FDR and MacArthur were resurrected.

Slightly OT-
I’m sorry that I missed the second part of Chandrasekaran’s Book Salon. I have to say that reading it is like a primer on how badly the 1600 Crew mismanaged everything. From serving Pork in the dining hall and asking Muslims to ignore it, to the Sixty-Grit Employment Agency it’s pretty unbelievable.

I have a hard time believing that historians won’t use books like “Imperial Life” as touchstones when they review the incompetance and misjudgement of the BunnyPants Administration.

Anyone who knew what was happening in Iraq in 2003 after the declaration of “Mission Accomplished” and was complicit in the foolishness that followed from a policy and politics-as-policy standpoint deserves the scorn of future generations. There were no “good guys” really amongst the appointees, camp-followers, opportunists and political hookers, just many who were less bad than others. IMHO.

And now a whole country pays the price. Ours, theirs or both?

I want the Bush dynasty laid bare. I want the neocons brought to justice. I want to know the justification for politicians in my party (Demos) for their support of the Iraq invasion and their continued support for the Bush slaughter of Iraqi’s and our soldiers deaths. I want accountability.

The idea that our troops can just waltz out when ever they please is dead wrong. “Retreating” is the toughest military manuever to execute.

John Casper is right. As various people have noted, our supply lines in Iraq are very vulnerable if we go too far in pissing off certain Shiite factions. The entire reason that the U.S. hasn’t been told to leave already is because those factions have seen it as being in their interest for us to stay.

If we announce a withdrawal, we need to be make damn sure it doesn’t suddenly become in someone’s interest to launch a surprise attack on our supply lines.

Joe’s right, and this is another subject Steve Gilliard wrote about in detail ages ago wrt Iraq.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 15

I want the Bush dynasty laid bare. I want the neocons brought to justice. I want to know the justification for politicians in my party (Demos) for their support of the Iraq invasion and their continued support for the Bush slaughter of Iraqi’s and our soldiers deaths. I want accountability.

HEAR, HEAR!!

This business in the Middle East is perhaps out of control. God help us.

Jo Fish @ 14

There were no “good guys” really amongst the appointees, camp-followers, opportunists and political hookers, just many who were less bad than others.

And don’t EVER let the main stream media off the hook. That is the collection of souls responsible for insuring that Orwell’s Ministry of Truth was nothing more than the fictional ramblings of a paranoid who’d seen Franco’s fascism up close and was scarred for life because of it. They blew it! And why? Because Rupert Murdock showed them that they could make more money peddling propaganda than truth; plain and simple.

Keith Olbermann and the people he interviews are making a strong case that there IS A CIVIL WAR in Iraq, and that the U.S. should get out now.

Nice write-up in the Oakland (CA) Tribune about the lead trial attorney, Joe Cotchett, in the Wilson’s civil suit.

From the article:

A judge for the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia will hear the defendants’ motion to dismiss in early February, said Cotchett, who acknowledged that defeating the motion will a challenge. But the former Army Special Forces colonel will make it as difficult as possible for his opponents to avert a trial.

“There’s no lawyer who has more of a go-for-the-throat, never stop, push, drive, squeeze mentality than Joe,” said George Corey, a Millbrae attorney who has worked with — and against — Cotchett. “All you have to do is be on the other side of the case, and you’ll find out. You’ll think he has five legs and 10 arms coming at you.”

Article also has a quote from Larry Johnson.

When this is all over (assuming that it will end at some point) I hope we live to see this generation’s equivalent of the Nuremberg trials.

WRT to the mistakes of Afghanistan, you can now download a two-part report by the superb BBC journalist Lyse Doucet here.

Excellent companion to the BBC series “Baghdad Billions,” downloadable here.

The BBC World Service Documentary Archives are a treasure trove of podcasting goodness.

Fron the AOL News poll (i heart jane 5:14 p.m. above):

How much confidence do you have in Bush?
None 67%
A lot 23%
A little 10%

Thanks ralphbon!

neurophius @ 25

Fron the AOL News poll (i heart jane 5:14 p.m. above):

How much confidence do you have in Bush?
None 67%
A lot 23%
A little 10%

Put it in terms of a Faux question, “If the President sat semi-catatonic in a corner and played with his own body waste for the rest of his term; do you think he could make matters any worse?”

500 million for a building to house W’s copy of The Pet Goat. Just imagine!

wow. never thought of that, being i have no military experience. But seems that this is a basic fact of the military and I remember reading about the extreme difficulty and care George Washington took in bringing his troops back from Brooklyn over the East River at the beginning of the Revolutionary war.

Arianna… on Olbermann

I am in love with her brain.

Argentina to Bush sisters: GET OUT NOW!!

That might be worth a Late Nite post.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 15

I . . . I want accountability.

Impeachment is not good enough. I want them behind bars.

RevDeb @ 28

500 million for a building to house W’s copy of The Pet Goat. Just imagine!

$449 for the storage shed, and $499,999,551 for the security force from Blackwater….

johnSwifty – yeah, you’re right. I guess I was more focused on those souls who managed to immortalize themselves as living, breathing monuments to the Peter Principle than the self-serving, and delusional media.

But you’re right, they were among the biggest camp-followers/political hookers. Some of them were even getting paid by the 1600 Crew to do it.

Imagine that.

Oh, and in response to your question:

…“If the President sat semi-catatonic in a corner and played with his own body waste for the rest of his term; do you think he could make matters any worse?”

Well, not until he decideded to invade an neighboring outhouse because it had waste-destruction related programs.

montag @ 33

RevDeb @ 28

500 million for a building to house W’s copy of The Pet Goat. Just imagine!

$449 for the storage shed, and $499,999,551 for the security force from Blackwater….

Sounds about right.

TRex @ 31

Argentina to Bush sisters: GET OUT NOW!!

That might be worth a Late Nite post.

“Don’t cry for me, our Jenna ‘n twinna”

I ask again; what do the ‘first twins’ do exactly?

RevDeb @ 28

500 million for a building to house W’s copy of The Pet Goat. Just imagine!

A library: what a particularly inappropriate symbol to memorialize that idiot.

Some of that money is to pay for a “think tank” (another Bush non-sequitor) whose job it will be to try to rewrite history in George W. Bush’s favor.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 37

I ask again; what do the ‘first twins’ do exactly?

They are heroically reducing the alcohol surplus in the western hemisphere.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 37

I ask again; what do the ‘first twins’ do exactly?

Have fun on the Bush dime… (with a little help from the taxpayer for security).

TRex @ 31

Argentina to Bush sisters: GET OUT NOW!!

That might be worth a Late Nite post.

Imagine either or both being kidnapped because the local govt. can’t guarantee their safety. . . . that scenario was depicted in the West Wing and it wasn’t pretty. And that Pres. and 1st daughter we liked.

Oy.

neurophius @ 38

RevDeb @ 28

500 million for a building to house W’s copy of The Pet Goat. Just imagine!

A library: what a particularly inappropriate symbol to memorialize that idiot.

Some of that money is to pay for a “think tank” (another Bush non-sequitor) whose job it will be to try to rewrite history in George W. Bush’s favor.

A new Minstry of Truth.

I read the book club thread after my dinner guests left last night. Ambassador Wilson’s remarks leapt off the page.

It is so awful in Iraq that it makes Afghanistan look like a success. But Afghanistan has brought every occupying empire to its knees. Reagan didn’t need to fire a shot to bring down Brezhnev’s lumbering bear: it had already been mortally wounded in Afghanistan.

There will be no American empire left at the end of this story. What will that look like? Will it end in blood like the Austro-Hungarians or in poverty like the British?

Jo Fish @ 34

Oh, and in response to your question:

…“If the President sat semi-catatonic in a corner and played with his own body waste for the rest of his term; do you think he could make matters any worse?”

Well, not until he decideded to invade an neighboring outhouse because it had waste-destruction related programs.

Hee! But, you know, it was always about the oil. “The Historians” will judge this administration and history will find that Cheney was the driving force behind a power play for oil and miltary position; I’m sure of it.

The House of Saud forced his hand some by making him work towards removing American forces from Saudi Arabia; but he made the choice to focus on Iraq as his new staging ground…fat government contracts for Halliburton, a place to ditch the troups and oil, oil, oil. What could go wrong?

“Don’t cry for me, our Jenna ‘n twinna”

I didn’t even have to look

RevDeb @ 28

500 million for a building to house W’s copy of The Pet Goat. Just imagine!

On a whim, I searched Amazon for “my pet goat” but didn’t find it. I was tickled to see the third match was:

All the Best, George Bush: My Life in Letters and Other Writings

All the Best, George Bush: My Life in Letters and Other Writings by George W. Bush (Paperback – Oct 3, 2000)
Books: See all 57 items
Buy new: $16.00 $10.88 Used & new from $0.01

punaise @ 36

TRex @ 31

Argentina to Bush sisters: GET OUT NOW!!

That might be worth a Late Nite post.

“Don’t cry for me, our Jenna ‘n twinna”

In a sparkling bit of irony, let’s rename them “Cut and Run.” Cut is the plump one.

Keep in mind how horribly managed the exit from
Saigon was. There were barges on the Saigon river waiting to take people who had worked with us out to the ships offshore. US Ambassador Graham Martin thought somehow the ARVN would hold and turn the tide so he waited far too long to order the evacuation. If I were an Iraqi working for the “Coalition” I’d be damn sure I knew what was going on.
petedownunder @
7

Jane – As a Viet Nam era draft dodger I know zip about military tactics, but as I recall the exit from Saigon was pretty hairy. That said, I venture a guess that the flowers that were missing on our troops’arrival might be evident lining the path to the airport on the way out. I don’t see that any faction would gain by making an American exit difficult, but then this is clearly not my field of expertise.

OT – did we ever find out what Shooter was doin’ in Saudi Arabia?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 30

Arianna… on Olbermann

I am in love with her brain.

You have fine taste Oklahoma kiddo. You would enjoy her book on Picasso – published before her marriage and IMHO the best biography of the artist to date. She is a fine art historian in addition to her other gifts. The book turns up on ebay and other online markets from time to time.

It makes me wonder how many ex-republican guard insurgents remember the retreat at the end of Gulf War I when the iraqi army was abandoning Kuwait and tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers were slaughtered by our strafing fighter jets in what was termed a “turkey shoot.”

OT: a holdover from the last thread.

… Steve Gilliard sent me an old post of his yesterday that he’d written three years ago, about how Iraq could devolve into civil war. It would be almost funny if it weren’t so tragic — how come none of the Great Men of Washington could figure this out? Reprinted in its entirety with permission — JH)

It turns out that some of them had.

I attended a Christmas part in December 1990 where a friend who’d been called up to work at the Pentagon on the logistic preparations for Desert Storm told me that his friends in the CIA and State Dept. were desperately trying to figure out what would happen if we took out Saddam Hussein. Every option they’d come up with was grim with the most likely being a civil war followed by a Iranian dominance.

These people advised Bush’s father, who in 1998 wrote:

Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different–and perhaps barren–outcome.

RevDeb @ 42

neurophius @ 38

RevDeb @ 28

500 million for a building to house W’s copy of The Pet Goat. Just imagine!

Keith O. said visitors to the “Iraq wing” will be “greeted as liberators.”

A library: what a particularly inappropriate symbol to memorialize that idiot.

Some of that money is to pay for a “think tank” (another Bush non-sequitor) whose job it will be to try to rewrite history in George W. Bush’s favor.

A new Minstry of Truth.

Troops
Home
NOW

-or-

I raqwar
S till
G oing

George W. Bush Think Tank: a reservoir of intellectual prowess, flush with the resources needed to shepherd his legacy through these difficult times.

punaise @ 54

George W. Bush Think Tank: a reservoir of intellectual prowess, flush with the resources needed to shepherd his legacy through these difficult times.

Drink tank.

Exit from Saigon.

bg @ 56

punaise @ 54

George W. Bush Think Tank: a reservoir of intellectual prowess, flush with the resources needed to shepherd his legacy through these difficult times.

Drink tank.

It will plumb the depths of the intellectual ressources that were the hallmark of his administration.

neurophius @ 57

bg @ 56

punaise @ 54

George W. Bush Think Tank: a reservoir of intellectual prowess, flush with the resources needed to shepherd his legacy through these difficult times.

Drink tank.

It will plumb the depths of the intellectual ressources that were the hallmark of his administration.

Bottoms up!!

Just so folks know, that was not the Embassy

TeddySanFran @ 56

Exit from Saigon.

Vietnam civilians try to board an Air America helicopter on an apartment rooftop in Saigon, April 29, 1975. This is perhaps the most famous image from the Fall of Saigon. It was taken by Hubert Van Es, a Dutch photographer working for United Press International. The building in the photo is frequently referred to as the US Embassy, but in fact is an apartment building several blocks away that was one of several pick-up points for the American evacuation. A copy of this photograph is available in an article written by the photographer for the New York Times.

punaise @ 54

George W. Bush Think Tank: a reservoir of intellectual prowess, flush with the resources needed to shepherd his legacy through these difficult times.

Channel his legacy through the locks of dilution as so much flotsam and jetsam on the tidal flows of fate?

bg @ 58

neurophius @ 57

bg @ 56

punaise @ 54

George W. Bush Think Tank: a reservoir of intellectual prowess, flush with the resources needed to shepherd his legacy through these difficult times.

Drink tank.

It will plumb the depths of the intellectual ressources that were the hallmark of his administration.

Bottoms up!!

The twins have come north?

I’m sure the writers at the George W. Bush Think Tank will be very a-commode-ating to his view of his own history.

Joe Scarborough is joining the MSNBC chorus of “Civil war.”

Suzanne @
22

Nice write-up in the Oakland (CA) Tribune about the lead trial attorney, Joe Cotchett, in the Wilson’s civil suit.

“There’s no lawyer who has more of a go-for-the-throat, never stop, push, drive, squeeze mentality than Joe,” said George Corey, a Millbrae attorney who has worked with — and against — Cotchett. “All you have to do is be on the other side of the case, and you’ll find out. You’ll think he has five legs and 10 arms coming at you.”

Article also has a quote from Larry Johnson.

Thanks for that Suzanne, great article.

kirk murphy @
62
[snip by CHS — please don’t quote more than two other posts because it busts out our margins. Thanks much!]

punaise @ 54

The twins have come north?

They leave Argentina Thursday.

Jimmy Carter on Larry King. talking about Iraq, the ME and the Palestinians. None of CNN’s promos used the word “Palestinians.”

Wigwam @ 52

OT: a holdover from the last thread.

… Steve Gilliard sent me an old post of his yesterday that he’d written three years ago, about how Iraq could devolve into civil war. It would be almost funny if it weren’t so tragic — how come none of the Great Men of Washington could figure this out? Reprinted in its entirety with permission — JH)

It turns out that some of them had.

I attended a Christmas part in December 1990 where a friend who’d been called up to work at the Pentagon on the logistic preparations for Desert Storm told me that his friends in the CIA and State Dept. were desperately trying to figure out what would happen if we took out Saddam Hussein. Every option they’d come up with was grim with the most likely being a civil war followed by a Iranian dominance.

These people advised Bush’s father, who in 1998 wrote:

Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different–and perhaps barren–outcome.

My expectation is that the US invasion of Iraq will be viewed as an Iranian cat’s paw in the long run.
It is hard to see any stable future in the region without considerable influence from Iran (and Turkey).
We know who the losers are: The US and Iraw, but ultimately who will have gained?
Iran.
And what intelligence agency was Chalabi linked to?
Iran
And who propped Al Sadr up initially?
Iran
And what can the US realistically do?
Talk nice with Iran.
Encourage their Democratic tendencies.

George W. Bush Think Tank: a reservoir of intellectual prowess, flush with the resources needed to shepherd his legacy through these difficult times.

Drink tank.

It will plumb the depths of the intellectual ressources that were the hallmark of his administration.

Bottoms up!!

The twins have come north?

They leave Argentina Thursday.

Jimmy Carter on Larry King. talking about Iraq, the ME and the Palestinians. None of CNN’s promos used the word “Palestinians.”

routine zig maintenance. nothing to see here.

punaise @ 67

George W. Bush Think Tank: a reservoir of intellectual prowess, flush with the resources needed to shepherd his legacy through these difficult times.

Drink tank.

It will plumb the depths of the intellectual ressources that were the hallmark of his administration.

Bottoms up!!

The twins have come north?

They leave Argentina Thursday.

Jimmy Carter on Larry King. talking about Iraq, the ME and the Palestinians. None of CNN’s promos used the word “Palestinians.”

routine zig maintenance. nothing to see here.

Punaise – your work is always worth watching!

Please don’t forget the kids who will not have a very good Christmas morning. Give of your time and give of your purse if you are able.

In the zigs of Babylon, there was also nothing to see there.

No idols, no representations of anything. Just some altars without heads.

The is-this-a-civil war controversy seems a critical turning point for the Administration. They have been struggling with how best to maintain a continuing justification for the war — and hence, a justification for continued loss of US lives. The Scarborough discussion tonight is talking about the John Kerry quote, “. . . the last man to die for a mistake.” The panelists are all conservatives — odd ones to be sure (Joe, Buchanan and the TNR guy) — but still conservatives. They’re all saying the same thing. We can’t justify another death in support of the Bush/Cheney policy.

So Bush’s natural supporters are saying American soldiers are now being killed for no reason — or for a mistake made by an increasingly unpopular President and his even less popular VP. Joe Wilson’s concern can now be expanded: will the Bush/Cheney WH have to battle their way out of the WH and onto Marine One?

I don’t believe you will ever get Dear Leader and his personality cult to admit they “lost” a war… He will just smile and duck and weave and obfuscate and pretend to listen and lie and otherwise stall… which means that this does not end until Congress has the spine to cut the purse strings or until the Great Man gets impeached. Please tell me I’m wrong.

Bush cannot rehabilitate his image for me.

Even if he were to walk on water, I’d laugh at him for not knowing how to swim.

Turds float.

President Carter. On King. Can you believe this man! I love him.

a compendium of initial exercises from various Late Nite contributors last night:

Incongruous
Realpolitik
Assuages
Qualms

I
Remember
Another
Quaqmire

I
Really
Am
Queered off about this nonsense.

Incumbent
Rear echelon
Assholes
Quiver

I as a good and godly Christianist
Really do want to be
A
Quiverfully responsible mudderfodder

Ill-considered
Racket
Abets
Quandary

I‘ll bet
Ridiculous assholes
Are running this
Qountry

Imperial
Regret for
Actions
Quixotic

Idjits
Regurtitating
Awful
Qualifications

Oklahoma kiddo @ 75

President Carter. On King. Can you believe this man! I love him.

Can you imagine anyone wanting to hear what George W. Bush has to say 25 or 30 years from now?

TRex @
31

Argentina to Bush sisters: GET OUT NOW!!

That might be worth a Late Nite post.

Oh, yes, please, perhaps a call to W from US Ambassador to Argentina Earl Anthony Wayne, who started work in BA less than a month ago:


I didn’t sign on to watch these twins!

neurophius @ 77

Oklahoma kiddo @ 75

President Carter. On King. Can you believe this man! I love him.

Can you imagine anyone wanting to hear what George W. Bush has to say 25 or 30 years from now?

I doubt he will live that long, or if he does he will be totally pickled and hidden from sight.

It is beyond painful for anyone to go down the road of “last one to die for nothing.”

I heard this from a voter when I was doing d-t-d. She was voting to “stay the course” and was very upset when I said the soldiers were dying for nothing.

W is totally staked in this mud. It is not possible for him to admit it is a waste, now or ever.

Those of us who opposed it from before it started and have opposed it every minute since, well, nothing from nothing leaves nothing. A total effin’ waste.

The Iraq Study Group is essentially being fronted by the Bush Crime Family’s mob lawyer, James “The Fixer” Baker. He is not a diplomat, he is a mob lawyer.

Remember when Nixon was elected in 1968 and said he had a “Secret Plan” to end the war? And it took another 7 YEARS to end.

Well, Jim “The Fixer” Baker is going to say basically the same thing this time around, probably to stall the war ending for the same 7 extra years. What a shocking surprise.

Joe Wilson is spot on in his ominous assessment of ‘retreating’ in a battlefield situation. It is very dangerous. Think for a moment about being in the last thousand men left in Bagdad. You have no backup except for airpower. Which does not always workout well in close quarter fighting. You end up just about having to call airstrikes down on your own position.Very scary stuff. You had better have some kind of agreement with the locals or they will massacre you to the last man, like Custer, no shit. Often times, angry folks on the other side really want to get in their last licks on you, vengence wise.

I remain convinced to this day that Kissinger had just such an understanding from North Vietnam for our final retreat from the embassy rooftop in 1975. It was humiliating enough without having to worry about the spectacle of your last troops being killed in front of the camera.

punaise @
36

TRex @ 31

Argentina to Bush sisters: GET OUT NOW!!

That might be worth a Late Nite post.

“Don’t cry for me, our Jenna ‘n twinna”

Top Ten, p.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 75

President Carter. On King. Can you believe this man! I love him.

Poor Larry nearly had another attack when Jimmy mentioned resolution 242.

TSF! :~)

neurophius @ 76

Oklahoma kiddo @ 75

President Carter. On King. Can you believe this man! I love him.

Can you imagine anyone wanting to hear what George W. Bush has to say 25 or 30 years from now?

It is hard to understand, but there are 25%-30% of the public who idolize George Bush, and probably always will.

From Mac, just above, a Freudian typo:

We know who the losers are: The US and Iraw, but ultimately who will have gained?

There are also lots of people, even here in Georgia, who really dislike Jimmy.

scarecrow @ 85

neurophius @ 76

Oklahoma kiddo @ 75

President Carter. On King. Can you believe this man! I love him.

Can you imagine anyone wanting to hear what George W. Bush has to say 25 or 30 years from now?

It is hard to understand, but there are 25%-30% of the public who idolize George Bush, and probably always will.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 37

I ask again; what do the ‘first twins’ do exactly?

They are practicing having a silver spoon in their mouths so that they too can run for president one day.

Digby is back. And in Excellent Form.

raven @ 87

There are also lots of people, even here in Georgia, who really dislike Jimmy.

scarecrow @ 85

neurophius @ 76

Oklahoma kiddo @ 75

President Carter. On King. Can you believe this man! I love him.

Can you imagine anyone wanting to hear what George W. Bush has to say 25 or 30 years from now?

It is hard to understand, but there are 25%-30% of the public who idolize George Bush, and probably always will.

why?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0…..60,00.html

Twins sacrificing for their country in time of war… Bush family tradition:– screw up for the first 30 years of your life, then find God :p

TeddySanFran @
78

TRex @
31

I didn’t sign on to watch these twins!

MsAnnaNOLA @ 88

Oklahoma kiddo @ 37

I ask again; what do the ‘first twins’ do exactly?

They are practicing having a silver spoon in their mouths so that they too can run for president one day.

Argent Twinna

The only way things might get better is if Bush and Cheney step down and someone else apologizes to the world for what they have done.

scarecrow @
85

neurophius @ 76

Oklahoma kiddo @ 75

President Carter. On King. Can you believe this man! I love him.

Can you imagine anyone wanting to hear what George W. Bush has to say 25 or 30 years from now?

It is hard to understand, but there are 25%-30% of the public who idolize George Bush, and probably always will.

The same percentage in Germany idolized Hilter after the war, and still do to this day.

neurophius @ 77

Oklahoma kiddo @ 75

President Carter. On King. Can you believe this man! I love him.

Can you imagine anyone wanting to hear what George W. Bush has to say 25 or 30 years from now?

Maybe. We have to see how his $500 million library/amusement park/petting zoo turns out

scarecrow @ 84

It is hard to understand, but there are 25%-30% of the public who idolize George Bush, and probably always will.

Yeah I know those people, too. For them the idiotic phrase, “He has to do what he has to do to keep America safe,” has wound itself inextricably into their double helix. They physically can’t think outside those terms. It is religion to them. I don’t get it either.

1,340 dayz and the killin; goez on and on and..

Citizen oklahoma kiddo:

I too want accountability and I think we’re gunna get it but it’s gunna be messy and maybe a bit bloody in the streets but we’re gunna get answers. The wheels are comin’ off both in Iraq and domestically VERY rapidly…the fascist war machine and it’s domestic political machine are made outta paper mache and the election broke both open like a pinata.

The biggest threat to getting public accountability is in this next month and 2 weeks before the new sheriffs get their badges. The corporatists will be tryin ta frame the debate and present Pelosi and Reid with limited choices and the 5th column of Rahm, Chuck Schumer, Mrs. Clinton and Joe Likuderman will be workin’ VERY hard to close windows of opportunity for the new leadership before they ken take power.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION!!

punaise @
36

TRex @ 31

Argentina to Bush sisters: GET OUT NOW!!

That might be worth a Late Nite post.

“Don’t cry for me, our Jenna ‘n twinna”

Punaise, you are freakin brilliant

petedownunder >

…as I recall the exit from Saigon was pretty hairy…

as has been noted the hairy part was not about our troops leaving (most of them were long gone) but the mass of people that had assisted us and hung around till the bitter Kissinger end hoping to be saved.

Marine General Chesty Puller had one of those “adventures” that is worth noting & learning from.

Mack >

My expectation is that the US invasion of Iraq will be viewed as an Iranian cat’s paw in the long run.
It is hard to see any stable future in the region without considerable influence from Iran (and Turkey).
We know who the losers are: The US and Iraw, but ultimately who will have gained?
Iran.
And what intelligence agency was Chalabi linked to?
Iran
And who propped Al Sadr up initially?
Iran
And what can the US realistcally do?
Talk nice with Iran.
Encourage their Democratic tendancies.

And behind Iran those that care to look will find this fine trustworthy group

“For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill” – Sun Tzu

Blub @ 92

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0…..60,00.html

Twins sacrificing for their country in time of war… Bush family tradition:– screw up for the first 30 years of your life, then find God.

I thought it was more like 40 years.

I’ve listened to Ambassador Wilson talk. He talks like a really good car mechanic. No matter how complex and technical the problem is, and how completely ignorant of the involved malfunctioning components I am, the explanation is reasonable and understood.

It sort of underlines how bad the situation is when someone like Ambassador Wilson wonders out loud if withdrawal turns to retreat and then to a rout.
I missed this on Driftglass the first time. It was re-posted:

So you want to know how this Liberal views Iraq?

Take a look at the sickening image that came roaring out of our collective unconscious and onto our televisions on 9/11: a human being confronted with two choices too terrible to contemplate — leap into oblivion or be roasted alive.

And once in the air, whatever intentions or dreams or hopes or beliefs this poor bastard might have had became irrelevant. Flapping their arms didn’t matter. Prayer didn’t matter.

Once in the air, the Cold Equations were all that mattered. Once in the air, my fellow human being became a physics demonstration; an object on a downward arc governed by the Laws of Science that the Republicans hate so very much.

That, you despicable little stooge, is EXACTLY how Iraq looks to me.

On the heels of our greatest modern national trauma, the President and his minions shrieked and bellowed, roared and raged that there was a conflagration at our backs. That we were all in immediate, lethal danger from a massive, murderous attack by Saddam Hussein and that if we didn’t act right now we were fucked.

Mushroom-cloud fucked.

much, much more. Ammo for me against rightards at work.

There is a lot of talent packed in them innernets toobs.

Well, recall that we broke all the trends and stayed Republican except for phony right-winger Dems like John Barrow. Many people in Georgia see him as weak at best and looney at worst. I’ve lived here 22 years and this is nothing new. Their idea of a Democrat is Zell Miller, that abiut sums it up.

why?

OFG, doesn’t Drifty just make your socks roll up and down? Dreamy writing {{swoon}}.

JC, “Time to get back on the peace track”!

Carter quietly and gently tells Dershowitz to STFU.

good.

The Peace Train must move forward.

“It is hard to understand, but there are 25%-30% of the public who idolize George Bush, and probably always will.”

I met a traveler from a mideastern land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read,
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed,
And on the pedestal these words appear:
“My name is Bush forty three, Decider of Things:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

-Percy Bysshe Shelley (mostly)

Mommybrain @ 102

OFG, doesn’t Drifty just make your socks roll up and down? Dreamy writing {{swoon}}.

yes, actually lol

Mommybrain @ 102

OFG, doesn’t Drifty just make your socks roll up and down? Dreamy writing {{swoon}}.

If I did swoon, it would be in a purely hetero-Greco rasslin fan sorta way.

Driftglass astonishes me.

I remember when Vietnamese refugees arrived in my community, which had special heartbreak for their plight. McLean, Virginia, welcomed refugees of our last Manifest Destiny bad bargain, the CIA having invented Strategic Hamlets (”hearts-and-minds” circa 1966).

Iraqwar-loving RedStates better be ready to open their towns to lotsa educated Iraqi professionals, just like the Best and the Brightest welcomed wealthy middle-class Vietnamese. Because there wasn’t anyplace else to go.

If you cast your lot with the US — you need evacuation for your loyalty.

“The Peace Train”…

TeddySanFran @ 108

I remember when Vietnamese refugees arrived in my community, which had special heartbreak for their plight. McLean, Virginia, welcomed refugees of our last Manifest Destiny bad bargain, the CIA having invented Strategic Hamlets (”hearts-and-minds” circa 1966).

Iraqwar-loving RedStates better be ready to open their towns to lotsa educated Iraqi professionals, just like the Best and the Brightest welcomed wealthy middle-class Vietnamese. Because there wasn’t anyplace else to go.

If you cast your lot with the US — you need evacuation for your loyalty.

There’s lots of room to build dorms on Bush’s fake ranch.

Are we going to have to take to the streets to get us out of Iraq?

Margot, don’t worry!! Vent away. It’s not healthy to keep it all in!! Like I said, you brought up very valid points. The wages, working conditions, and benefits of ’staff’ within the healthcare industry is just as important as the big pharms’ waste of money. I think most of us will know that you’re just venting.

I suspect many, if not all, Iraqi’s who can afford it have already unassed that place.

TeddySanFran @ 108

I remember when Vietnamese refugees arrived in my community, which had special heartbreak for their plight. McLean, Virginia, welcomed refugees of our last Manifest Destiny bad bargain, the CIA having invented Strategic Hamlets (”hearts-and-minds” circa 1966).

Iraqwar-loving RedStates better be ready to open their towns to lotsa educated Iraqi professionals, just like the Best and the Brightest welcomed wealthy middle-class Vietnamese. Because there wasn’t anyplace else to go.

If you cast your lot with the US — you need evacuation for your loyalty.

angie @
104

Carter quietly and gently tells Dershowitz to STFU.

good.

The Peace Train must move forward.

I’m glad to see King broke the ice and was the first first-string interviewer to give Carter free rein on this book. Dershowitz! OJ’s favorite surviving lawyer….

Joyce @ 105

Mommybrain @ 102

OFG, doesn’t Drifty just make your socks roll up and down? Dreamy writing {{swoon}}.

yes, actually lol

It isn’t the size of the vocabulary that matters, it’s the motion in the meter.

They are practicing having a silver spoon in their mouths so that they too can run for president one day.

Or under their noses……

We can’t when they have us hamstrung with this “support the troops” bullshit.

Oilfieldguy @ 111

Are we going to have to take to the streets to get us out of Iraq?

johnSwifty @ 115

Joyce @ 105

Mommybrain @ 102

OFG, doesn’t Drifty just make your socks roll up and down? Dreamy writing {{swoon}}.

yes, actually lol

It isn’t the size of the vocabulary that matters, it’s the motion in the meter.

yes, that’s usually true

“…take to the streets…”? Maybe.

angie @ 90

raven @ 87

There are also lots of people, even here in Georgia, who really dislike Jimmy.

scarecrow @ 85

neurophius @ 76

Can you imagine anyone wanting to hear what George W. Bush has to say 25 or 30 years from now?

It is hard to understand, but there are 25%-30% of the public who idolize George Bush, and probably always will.

why?

TeddySanFran @ 108

I remember when Vietnamese refugees arrived in my community, which had special heartbreak for their plight. McLean, Virginia, welcomed refugees of our last Manifest Destiny bad bargain, the CIA having invented Strategic Hamlets (”hearts-and-minds” circa 1966).

Iraqwar-loving RedStates better be ready to open their towns to lotsa educated Iraqi professionals, just like the Best and the Brightest welcomed wealthy middle-class Vietnamese. Because there wasn’t anyplace else to go.

If you cast your lot with the US — you need evacuation for your loyalty.

Wow SFTeddy – your wordsmithing just knocks my socks off! Thanks.

Maybe Bush insists on staying because there’s no way to get out without massive slaughter of our troops.

SusanD @ 121

Maybe Bush insists on staying because there’s no way to get out without massive slaughter of our troops.

Tar baby?

RevDeb @ 89

Digby is back. And in Excellent Form.

thanks, that is a fine post. I think this relates to what Jane talks about:

This is not the early 70’s and grassroots progressivism in 2006 isn’t a youth or a social movement. It is passionate and it is populist, at least in a stylistic sense but it is not radical or anti-intellectual. The liberal pundit class is making a number of errors in judgments at least in part because they are emotionally recoiling from being associated with what they see as dirty hippies. This is a problem.

SusanD @ 121

Maybe Bush insists on staying because there’s no way to get out without massive slaughter of our troops.

I think that Bush either says what he is told to say or chooses the easiest position for him to think about. Actually solving the problem is never part of his thoughts.

SusanD @ 121

Maybe Bush insists on staying because there’s no way to get out without massive slaughter of our troops.

No way, imho. It’s all about his vicious and broken legacy.

He does not care about the slaughter of anyone.

Check the police officer and his survivors in Honolulu.

Or the nearly 3,000 troops or the nearly 700,000 Iraqis dead.

But Laura welcomed the Christmas tree into the WH today.

blergh.

I would like to see a debate between President Carter and Senator Lieberman on the Middle East.

SusanD @ 121

Maybe Bush insists on staying because there’s no way to get out without massive slaughter of our troops.

Today was the official start of the civil war? The same day as also the Iraq business has officially lasted longer than WW2?

I also note that the first few years in Vietnam, US casualties climbed slowly. We do not have the number of troops in Iraq to have 500 casualties (not Iraqi, but US of course) per week. But the numbers are climbing.

The Green Zone is not safe. There is no safe There.

W orst President Forever!

Oilfieldguy @ 121

SusanD @ 121

Maybe Bush insists on staying because there’s no way to get out without massive slaughter of our troops.

Tar baby?

Sort of both, I don’t think there’s a way to get out with the oil. I don’t think the man cares about the individual lives of solders any more now than he did during Vietnam.
But the oil…if he leaves without it, what will the ghost of Prescott say?

The General is in Fine Form too. The Book was NEVER titled 1984. It has ALWAYS been 2006. The Ministry of Truth has spoken.

angie @ 126

SusanD @ 121

Maybe Bush insists on staying because there’s no way to get out without massive slaughter of our troops.

No way, imho. It’s all about his vicious and broken legacy.

He does not care about the slaughter of anyone.

I will not take sides on this. But my sympathies lie where?

…and speaking of the oil.

SusanD @
122

Maybe Bush insists on staying because there’s no way to get out without massive slaughter of our troops.

I find the “massive slaughter of our own troops” thing to be a lot of BS. We get out the way we got in – via the roads to Kuwait and by air. Nobody puts down suppressing fire more massively or on target than our Army and Marines. Just like on the way in, troops might get lost here and there, but they’ll be cruising for a bruising with extra Air Force, Marine and Navy air.

johnSwifty @ 128

Oilfieldguy @ 121

SusanD @ 121

Maybe Bush insists on staying because there’s no way to get out without massive slaughter of our troops.

Tar baby?

Sort of both, I don’t think there’s a way to get out with the oil. I don’t think the man cares about the individual lives of solders any more now than he did during Vietnam.
But the oil…if he leaves without it, what will the ghost of Prescott say?

Oh I so agree with you.

what will the ghost of Prescott say?

Alas, poor Geronimo?

Tar baby?

I’m thinking more like the monkey trap. You know, treats in a hollow coconut. Monkey could get free if he’d let go of the treat, but he won’t.

Actually I think Baby Bush doesn’t have one single clue of what to do. All he can figure out is just to stall until it’s somebody else’s problem.

David Olsen @ 134

what will the ghost of Prescott say?

Alas, poor Geronimo?

No tellin’…there’s more in heaven and earth…doncha know, Horatio.

You got that right.

Ed*ard Teller @ 132

SusanD @
122

Maybe Bush insists on staying because there’s no way to get out without massive slaughter of our troops.

I find the “massive slaughter of our own troops” thing to be a lot of BS. We get out the way we got in – via the roads to Kuwait and by air. Nobody puts down suppressing fire more massively or on target than our Army and Marines. Just like on the way in, troops might get lost here and there, but they’ll be cruising for a bruising with extra Air Force, Marine and Navy air.

I find the “massive slaughter of our own troops” thing to be a lot of BS. We get out the way we got in – via the roads to Kuwait and by air. Nobody puts down suppressing fire more massively or on target than our Army and Marines. Just like on the way in, troops might get lost here and there, but they’ll be cruising for a bruising with extra Air Force, Marine and Navy air.

Maybe you’re right, maybe not. If our troops are on the way out and the Iraqis who’ve lost family and suffered in unimaginable ways see our retreat as their last chance to extract revenge, what then? Do we really have that much military in reserve to provide cover?

bg @
59

neurophius @ 57

bg @ 56

punaise @ 54

George W. Bush Think Tank: a reservoir of intellectual prowess, flush with the resources needed to shepherd his legacy through these difficult times.

Drink tank.

It will plumb the depths of the intellectual ressources that were the hallmark of his administration.

Bottoms up!!

Bush #2?

It may be that the goal was to KEEP the oil in Iraq. Greg Palast has said it was more important to squelch the production in order to keep the House of Saud on top. Saddam was threatening to screw with OPEC. His quota was far below what Iraq had, in terms of oil. He wanted to produce more oil. It was in the interest of Big Oil Daddys to keep Iraq oil in the ground.

Mission Accomplished.

George W. Bush Think Tank: a reservoir of intellectual prowess, flush with the resources needed to shepherd his legacy through these difficult times.

Drink tank.

It will plumb the depths of the intellectual ressources that were the hallmark of his administration.

Bottoms up!!

Bush #2?

(cleaning up a zig I started)

newspaperbrat -

Gee, I honestly thought the Huffington bio of Picasso was just awful and shallow — I looked forward to reading it when it came out but was extremely disappointed. I do recommend a tremendous memoir written by Francoise Gilot, a really intimate and very beautiful book about their life together. You get a real feel for him as an artist and a person. She’s a brilliant writer and artist too. She eventually married Jonas Salk. Just my two cents.

CNBC has apparently been noticing Olberman’s ratings since he started trashing Clusterfuck. They may see a little ratings window opening for them- hence the “civil war” decision. Interesting.

President Carter says as things stand now it’ll be McCain vs. Clinton in 2008.

Joyce @ 110

TeddySanFran @ 108

I remember when Vietnamese refugees arrived in my community, which had special heartbreak for their plight. McLean, Virginia, welcomed refugees of our last Manifest Destiny bad bargain, the CIA having invented Strategic Hamlets (”hearts-and-minds” circa 1966).

Iraqwar-loving RedStates better be ready to open their towns to lotsa educated Iraqi professionals, just like the Best and the Brightest welcomed wealthy middle-class Vietnamese. Because there wasn’t anyplace else to go.

If you cast your lot with the US — you need evacuation for your loyalty.

There’s lots of room to build dorms on Bush’s fake ranch.

If i understand correctly, good Muslims won’t step foot where pigs have trod.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 144

President Carter says as things stand now it’ll be McCain vs. Clinton in 2008.

Please let him be wrong about this!

Jane, maybe you can have Steve G discuss the Marine retreat from the Chosin reservoir and what lessons WE might learn about a fighting retreat.

Out of Iraq. Forthwith.

bg @ 146

Oklahoma kiddo @ 144

President Carter says as things stand now it’ll be McCain vs. Clinton in 2008.

Please let him be wrong about this!

Well, we would get the chance to see just how far right Hillary would be willing to go in order to win….

bg @ 140

It may be that the goal was to KEEP the oil in Iraq. Greg Palast has said it was more important to squelch the production in order to keep the House of Saud on top. Saddam was threatening to screw with OPEC. His quota was far below what Iraq had, in terms of oil. He wanted to produce more oil. It was in the interest of Big Oil Daddys to keep Iraq oil in the ground.

Mission Accomplished.

Usually Occam’s razor is adept at cutting conspiracies to shreds (but I love them, nonetheless). In this case, the razor breaks against a simple, solid reason for a stupid course of action made by simple minds. It has a real ring of plausibility. I’m going with it until someone comes up with something better. What evil people, though, who could make such a Machiavellian choice.

bg @ 147

Oklahoma kiddo @ 144

President Carter says as things stand now it’ll be McCain vs. Clinton in 2008.

Please let him be wrong about this!

This news would’ve had me quaking in my boots about 6 months ago but McCain has shot his wad, so to speak. I don’t think too many people are fooled by him anymore. He’s done.

‘We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality – judiciously, as you will – we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.’”

We are a lame-ass empire now. Hubris. What is the mindset inside the cocoon now?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 145

President Carter says as things stand now it’ll be McCain vs. Clinton in 2008.

I took this as a challenge.

We can make it so! (different)

gak!

Front runners two years out are very prone to taking one in the back from the team..

Way too early to be handicapping 08.. there are some candidates who aren’t on the radar at all right now who will be factors before this is over.

Dems would be much better off with a governor than with senators (any of em). Course if goopers pick a senator too- well that equalizes the shit..

I’m gonna guess that in the end it’s Romney and Edwards (or the Iowa gov.)

johnSwifty @ 150

bg @ 140

It may be that the goal was to KEEP the oil in Iraq. Greg Palast has said it was more important to squelch the production in order to keep the House of Saud on top. Saddam was threatening to screw with OPEC. His quota was far below what Iraq had, in terms of oil. He wanted to produce more oil. It was in the interest of Big Oil Daddys to keep Iraq oil in the ground.

Mission Accomplished.

Usually Occam’s razor is adept at cutting conspiracies to shreds (but I love them, nonetheless). In this case, the razor breaks against a simple, solid reason for a stupid course of action made by simple minds. It has a real ring of plausibility. I’m going with it until someone comes up with something better. What evil people, though, who could make such a Machavellian choice.

Palast’s argument, as I recall it at the time, was that there were two strongly competing views about what to do about oil in the administration–the neo-cons wanted to flood the market in an attempt to drive prices down and break OPEC. The oil people outside the administration advised going slow to keep prices up.

If one looks at what actually happened–per barrel prices increased on speculation and stayed there, oversight of Iraqi oil production was nonexistent and there was virtually no attempt to maintain pipeline and refinery security there, and the crack margin at refineries went up, too, resulting in record profits for the oil companies. The only times those trends changed were before the 2004 and 2006 elections….

I think we know which faction won that argument….

Joyce @ 133

johnSwifty @ 128

Oilfieldguy @ 121

SusanD @ 121

Maybe Bush insists on staying because there’s no way to get out without massive slaughter of our troops.

Tar baby?

Sort of both, I don’t think there’s a way to get out with the oil. I don’t think the man cares about the individual lives of solders any more now than he did during Vietnam.
But the oil…if he leaves without it, what will the ghost of Prescott say?

Oh I so agree with you.

I guess I should’ve clarified:

Oil-based tar-baby.

George W. Bush Think Tank: a reservoir of intellectual prowess, flush with the resources needed to shepherd his legacy through these difficult times.

Or perhaps: The George W. Bush Thnk Tnk; a cesspool of intellectual incuriousness whose resources were flushed down the toilet by shepards whose legacy will be the denouement of his legacy, as he is slowly turned from the biological son of his father to the biological and ideological heir to St. Ronnie.

Babs will not object, having thus cleansed the family tree, after the Twins house-hunting trip to Argentina proves successful.

angie @ 154

Oklahoma kiddo @ 145

President Carter says as things stand now it’ll be McCain vs. Clinton in 2008.

I took this as a challenge.

We can make it so! (different)

You are perhaps knowledgable concerning my views on ‘The Hill’. ;)

angie @ 153

Oklahoma kiddo @ 145

President Carter says as things stand now it’ll be McCain vs. Clinton in 2008.

I took this as a challenge.

We can make it so (different)

And he’s a smart old peanut farmer who knows a thing or two. Right now, they’ve got the biggest war chests. But money isn’t everything any more.

There was an interesting article in Forbes, prior to the election, that stated the Republicans would hold both houses because they had the most money and that was the most telling pattern in the modern era. Well, not so much; but, it does tell us who can afford the ticket to the big dance right now. It doesn’t tell us who’s got a fairy god mother or who’s going home with the prince.

How do you feel, oh Blogosphere? Are you up to turning a pumpkin into a carriage? I, for one, am dying to watch the fairy tale unfold.

The Tar Baby was designed to capture it’s quarry by means of the victim’s own ANGER- the Monkey trap is designed to trap through the victims GREED…sounds a bit more like the monkey trap.

rwcole @ 160

The Tar Baby was designed to capture it’s quarry by means of the victim’s own ANGER- the Monkey trap is designed to trap through the victims GREED…sounds a bit more like the monkey trap.

W. Angry and Greedy.

montag @ 155

The oil people outside the administration advised going slow to keep prices up…I think we know which faction won that argument….

Indeed we do! And I wonder if, perchance, any of those people where in Cheney’s ’secret’ energy meeting cabal?

I wonder if they sip Dom with Rummy at the Bilderberg?

Gotta go. Out to start my war on the people who have declared there’s a “War on Christmas….”

My band might be the only state-affiliated college band in the NW which has a “Christmas” Concert. We had our fall concert last Monday, featuring secular concert music. Now we rehearse for two weeks on Christmas, Channukuh, and holiday stuff. We call it a “Christmas” concert.

This year:
Stille, Stille, Stille
Sleepers’ Awake
Ashley Reed’s great “Greensleeves”paraphrase
Hashana Bana Ah
Sleigh Ride
Fall concert features

Watching the RFK bio on PBS right now, hearing so many of the same kinds of comments and decisions made by Johnson that the current administration made about Vietnam.

Been crying my eyes out, too.

It struck me hard that there is and has been an enormous difference between the expectations of Americans of the two major parties, borne in part of the men who were our Democratic leaders before us. These Kennedys, both John and Bobby, were larger than life, remain larger than life; in spite of their humanity, the public looked to and expected more of them than the average pol.

This legacy remains to this day, and is in no small part why every damned thing Dems are and do is picked apart and pecked to death by the right.

They — the right-wing and the average American — expect Democratic leaders to be heroes.

They expect us to be larger than life in order to lead, where as the heroes of the right-wing only have to take apart goverment and cut taxes to be their leaders.

Unfortunately, because of the mess we are left after they are done wreaking havoc on the government and the nation, we have no choice but to seek a larger-than-life hero from amongst us to rectify the wrongs. Larger-than-life means larger target, in so many ways.

Gawddamnitall. It’s f*cking unfair.

And now Bobby Kennedy, in an old tape from a debate, questions the morality of killing innocents in Vietnam, fighting them there so we don’t fight them here…painful echoes reverberating.

EvilDrPuma @ 99

Blub @ 92

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0…..60,00.html

Twins sacrificing for their country in time of war… Bush family tradition:– screw up for the first 30 years of your life, then find God.

I thought it was more like 40 years.

Replace 30 with N

N = W’s age attm

Well… it’s off to the Aunty’s and very spicy virgin Marys and peanuts. And politics. ‘Til the wee hours. Oh Lord, this woman ties me in knots. The Auntie frames her political and social arguments such to give me no quarter and no wiggle room. She make a mess of me.

Clusterfuck thought he had found God- and God had ordained for him to be President and to go to Iraq- but then it turned out not to be God- it turned out to be a brain fart- so for years, Clusterfuck has been worshipping a brain fart of his own invention..

How appropriate.

Oklahoma kiddo @ 166

Well… it’s off to the Aunty’s and very spicy virgin Marys and peanuts. And politics. ‘Til the wee hours. Oh Lord, this woman ties me in knots. The Auntie frames her political and social arguments such to give me no quarter and no wiggle room. She make a mess of me.

Spike your arguments and spike her drink!

rwcole @ 168

Clusterfuck thought he had found God- and God had ordained for him to be President and to go to Iraq- but then it turned out not to be God- it turned out to be a brain fart- so for years, Clusterfuck has been worshipping a brain fart of his own invention..

How appropriate.

Jenna and Not Jenna in Argentina.
God and Not God in Bush’s Brain Fart. How he loves him some fart jokes.

rwcole @ 160

The Tar Baby was designed to capture it’s quarry by means of the victim’s own ANGER- the Monkey trap is designed to trap through the victims GREED…sounds a bit more like the monkey trap.

“He tried to kill my Pa.”

Dubya (who is an angry little chimp, caught by a shiny object inside a coconut being held by an oil-based tar-baby.

I’m werkin to be an Ambassador sumday. *g*

punaise (10) — damn. You know, that’s what the negotiations with Syria and Saudi Arabia have been about this past week.

Bet you dollars to donuts the discussions included negotiating asylum for both Shi’a and Sunni who have worked for or assisted the U.S. during our occupation.

They are preparing to exit, but they are playing it close to the cuff so that there is no leverage gained from the knowledge.

If they aren’t actually doing this (and my gut tells me they are), then they are dooming the Republican candidate of 2008, and they know it.

rwcole @ 144

CNBC has apparently been noticing Olberman’s ratings since he started trashing Clusterfuck. They may see a little ratings window opening for them- hence the “civil war” decision. Interesting.

My initial reaction to that was that it was a counter to CNN pumping Time’s Person of the Year. In other words, self promotion. Who knows?

Rayne– It was in a recent book- I think Woodwards—Someone said to a White House sr. Staffer that the thing ta do was to leave- the sr. staffer said- “Well that’s what we’re gonna do- but we’re gonna call it “victory”.

Rayne @ 172

punaise (10) — damn. You know, that’s what the negotiations with Syria and Saudi Arabia have been about this past week.

Bet you dollars to donuts the discussions included negotiating asylum for both Shi’a and Sunni who have worked for or assisted the U.S. during our occupation.

They are preparing to exit, but they are playing it close to the cuff so that there is no leverage gained from the knowledge.

If they aren’t actually doing this (and my gut tells me they are), then they are dooming the Republican candidate of 2008, and they know it.

brilliant!

Dan Abrams is running CNBC now (thank God he’s off the air).

He’s a hero if he can gain rating points- and I doubt if they much care how he does it.

Seems like less people are goin ta Fox ta get hosed- that’s a good sign.

OT, but I just can’t help it…. So who wants to go on a dinosaur ride in Eden???

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/3427

You just can’t make this stuff up… I’ll leave it up to the legal scholars in our midst to comment on the validity of the “defense,” and I’m thinking that a certain well known theropod might enjoy a trip to the park.

rwcole @ 177

Seems like less people are goin ta Fox ta get hosed- that’s a good sign.

They took a thumpin’ on November 7th too! LOL

kirk — I don’t know about brilliant, it’s right there, I guess, just needed to look at this differently. They are going to need every bit of the next two years to pull this off with the least amount of bloodshed — and I don’t mean any reduction in sectarian violence. I mean only a minimization of risk to troops and to the Iraqis who’ve aided the Americans. Good gravy, that probably includes every one of the Assyrians in the center of the country.

Think it was egregious who said the ISG looked more like a presidential transition group than a collection of experts on the Middle East. That’s absolutely correct; this team started its work as early as it did because they are looking to save and transition to a Republican candidate in 2008, and they do not want the helicopters-on-the-rooftop evacuation scenario affecting the primary and election.

Weird how the MSM isn’t highlighting cluster’s awesome physical fitness anymore.

Rayne–Wasn’t the group put together by Congress?

Turns out that there are more important qualitities in a president than resting pulse rate and mean time between prayers.

rwcole — do you really think that was Congress’ work?

This Congress, the 109th? the people who are punting on spending bills and spent valuable time debating protections for christmas tree manufacturers?

Sha. Ri-iight. Although I’m sure it had their imprimatur.

I got here late; re Amb Wilson’s comment about fighting our way out of Irag. I think it was about a year ago that the military announced that four AC-130 Spectre gun-ships had been sent to Iraq. At the time people were asking,”what the hell are they going to do with AC-130 gun-ships?” It may have been Steve Gilliard who said they sent them to protect the soldiers as they fight their way out.

What the ‘first twins’ do exactly, Oklahoma kiddo, is give Karl Rove the opportunity to take the media’s low attention span off the disaster in Iraq, the subject of this post, and put it on something entirely frivolous. The rest of the country will follow suit.

Patrick Cockburn – like Fisk – sees Iraq on teh ground, outside the Green Zone.

Charnel house.

It is strange how in Iraq slaughter soon seems to be part of normal life

A special dispatch by Patrick Cockburn on his journey through a country being torn apart by civil war
Published: 28 November 2006

Iraq is rending itself apart. The signs of collapse are everywhere. In Baghdad, the police often pick up more than 100 tortured and mutilated bodies in a single day. Government ministries make war on each other.

A new and ominous stage in the disintegration of the Iraqi state came earlier this month when police commandos from the Shia-controlled Interior Ministry kidnapped 150 people from the Sunni-run Higher Education Ministry in the heart of Baghdad.

Iraq may be getting close to what Americans call “the Saigon moment”, the time when it becomes evident to all that the government is expiring. “They say that the killings and kidnappings are being carried out by men in police uniforms and with police vehicles,” the Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari said to me with a despairing laugh this summer. “But everybody in Baghdad knows that the killers and kidnappers are real policemen.”

It is getting worse. The Iraqi army and police are not loyal to the state. If the US army decides to confront the Shia militias it could well find Shia military units from the Iraqi army cutting the main American supply route between Kuwait and Baghdad. One convoy was recently stopped at a supposedly fake police checkpoint near the Kuwait border and four American security men and an Austrian taken away.

The US and British position in Iraq is far more of a house built on sand than is realised in Washington or London, despite the disasters of the past three-and-a-half years.

[snip]

Civil war is raging across central Iraq, home to a third of the country’s 27 million people. As Shia and Sunni flee each other’s neighbourhoods, Iraq is turning into a country of refugees.

The UN High Commissioner for Refugees says that 1.6 million are displaced within the country and a further 1.8 million have fled abroad. In Baghdad, neighbouring Sunni and Shia districts have started to fire mortars at each other.

[snip]

Iraqi friends used to reassure me that there would be no civil war because so many Shia and Sunni were married to each other. These mixed couples are now being compelled to divorce by their families.

[snip]

Members of mixed marriages had set up an association to protect each other called the Union for Peace in Iraq but they were soon compelled to dissolve it when several founding members were murdered.

Everything in Iraq is dominated by what in Belfast we used to call “the politics of the last atrocity”.

[snip]

A local tribal leader called Sayid Tewfiq from the nearby city of Tal Afar told me of a man from there who went to recover the tortured body of his 16-year-old son. The corpse was wired to explosives that blew up, killing the father so their two bodies were buried together.

Khasro Goran, the efficient and highly effective deputy governor of Mosul, said there was no civil war yet in Mosul but it could easily happen.

He added that 70,000 Kurds had already fled the city because of assassinations. It is extraordinary how, in Iraq, slaughter that would be front-page news anywhere else in the world soon seems to be part of normal life.

Dear pups -

those are parts of the initial 25% of the article.

I’d excerpt more, but I literally cannot endure reading more.

My words mean and do nothing for the Iraqi people.

The Iraq Study Group (ISG) was launched on March 15, 2006 at a meeting on Capitol Hill. It was created at the direction of a bipartisan group of members of the U.S. Congress. Representative Frank Wolf (R-VA) was the leading supporter of the group’s creation. Wolf had been calling for a “fresh eyes” assessment of the situation in Iraq since the summer of 2005. From its inception, the ISG was designed to be bipartisan, and the initiative has attracted broad, bipartisan support among members of the House and Senate.

http://www.usip.org/isg/fact_sheet.html

OT

Oh No. Rhambo is on TDS tonight.

And the end of American Experience on PBS, bio of RFK…they bury Bobby, in a tomb upon which is enscribed a quote by Aeschylus that Bobby could recite from heart:

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

Good God, what I would give for a president that would read, recite Aeschylus and apply what he learned from the same. We are going to need someone of that caliber to lead us in the difficult time ahead.

Kirk Murphy,

There are no words.

Bush. Cheney. Rumsfield. The Hague.

Jon:

“Not just any civil war. A ‘Lauer certified’ civil war.”

TRex upstairs…

My recollection is that we got in with a lot less casualties than expected.
Largely because the resistance faded to fight another way another day.
Withdrawal might be more painful.
(Mind you I am not a military expert, but I take all simple answers with a grain of skepticism)
And, there is the matter of Iraqi staff and supporters. Not all of them are double dealing fronts for militias. Many would be slaughtered without our support.
Oversimplification and unwillingness to examine difficult truths (like Sadaam was a dangerous, mean and evil bastard with heirs who were worse, but NOT a clear and present danger to the USA) got us into this godawful mess.
It is entirely possible that equal and opposite oversimplification could result in an equal and opposite godawful mess.

Ed*ard Teller @ 133

I find the “massive slaughter of our own troops” thing to be a lot of BS. We get out the way we got in – via the roads to Kuwait and by air. Nobody puts down suppressing fire more massively or on target than our Army and Marines. Just like on the way in, troops might get lost here and there, but they’ll be cruising for a bruising with extra Air Force, Marine and Navy air.

RevDeb @ 191

Kirk Murphy,

There are no words.

Bush. Cheney. Rumsfield. The Hague.

The “preemptive strike”-based Bush Doctorine piddled away, there is no enduring justification for the invasion under international law.
That said, it would be patently unfair (IMO) to our troops to pursue this course while they are in harms way.

Isn’t amazing that suddenly the entire world is of the same mind, that this is a “civil war” we are seeing?

Note the inception of the ISG (at site Cozumel linked above) and the Technorati chart.

I see some hallmarks, looks rather like a product marketing media push. Did they figure out that the one thing that could persuade ALL Americans and the rest of the world that we needed to exit NOW was a “civil war”?

p.s. Cozumel, I noted in the info sheet that the ISG has no “statuatory mandate”. Imprimatur, as I said — but nothing more.

Cozumel @ 188

The Iraq Study Group (ISG) was launched on March 15, 2006 at a meeting on Capitol Hill. It was created at the direction of a bipartisan group of members of the U.S. Congress. Representative Frank Wolf (R-VA) was the leading supporter of the group’s creation. Wolf had been calling for a “fresh eyes” assessment of the situation in Iraq since the summer of 2005. From its inception, the ISG was designed to be bipartisan, and the initiative has attracted broad, bipartisan support among members of the House and Senate.

http://www.usip.org/isg/fact_sheet.html

Bi-Partisan means diddle when neither side is represented by any measure of competance in the subject matter.
Freakin’ Vernon Jordan?
Whose idea of a Mideast Policy and Military Strategy wonk is he?

Jenny from the Blog @ 142

newspaperbrat -

Gee, I honestly thought the Huffington bio of Picasso was just awful and shallow — I looked forward to reading it when it came out but was extremely disappointed. I do recommend a tremendous memoir written by Francoise Gilot, a really intimate and very beautiful book about their life together. You get a real feel for him as an artist and a person. She’s a brilliant writer and artist too. She eventually married Jonas Salk. Just my two cents.

Hmmmmm. I certainly share your enthusiasm for the Francoise Gilot memoir. and remain grateful for Arianna’s contribution to my understanding, such as it is, of the formidable Picasso.

Mack @ 195

RevDeb @ 191

Kirk Murphy,

There are no words.

Bush. Cheney. Rumsfield. The Hague.

The “preemptive strike”-based Bush Doctorine piddled away, there is no enduring justification for the invasion under international law.
That said, it would be patently unfair (IMO) to our troops to pursue this course while they are in harms way.

I missed the “unfair to US troops” exemption in international law and binding treaties on human rights.

I’m always happy to review a citation :)

The ISG from what I understand is going to put out a consensus report, no dissenting views. As of last Friday, I think it was Dana Bash on CNN who said they’re miles apart as of then (Friday). It’s going to be like a warm glass of water whatever it is probably. They keep leaking stuff to float it, it looks like in the meantime.

Nothing to see here I think.

RevDeb @ 188

OT

Oh No. Rhambo is on TDS tonight.

Ye Gods – started to quip “thanks for the warning” but cannnot kid myself – Jon can handle him.

newspaperbrat @
201

RevDeb @ 188

OT

Oh No. Rhambo is on TDS tonight.

Ye Gods – started to quip “thanks for the warning” but cannnot kid myself – Jon can handle him.

And he did.

RevDeb @ 201

newspaperbrat @
201

RevDeb @ 188

OT

Oh No. Rhambo is on TDS tonight.

Ye Gods – started to quip “thanks for the warning” but cannnot kid myself – Jon can handle him.

And he did.

Woo Hoo – we’ll have the show here on the west coast later this evening.

Cozumel 200 — you know, I think they already have a game plan from which they are working, alluded to in the CrazyWeb post cited by Wonkette (a 1-foot thick document). Sure, could be crazed rantings at CrazyWeb, but the stuff we’re seeing going on right now definitely doesn’t follow any script we’d have predicted from Dubya-DeadEye&Company. My guess is that the consensus they are telling the media they are working towards is not the same document; the consensus document is what they will agree to disclose to us, not the working plan. The working plan is already in use.

edit: Think about the 9/11 Commission Report. A lot of agreed-upon fluff.

My fear is that the troops might end up individually liable for mistakes perpetrated while following orders.
Admittedly my understanding of the legal ramnifications are inadequate,
The only thing I am certain of is that it is a huge fucking mess which was perpetrated by our Neocon Administration.

kirk murphy @ 199

I missed the “unfair to US troops” exemption in international law and binding treaties on human rights.

I’m always happy to review a citation :)

Rayne @ 204

Cozumel 200 — you know, I think they already have a game plan from which they are working, alluded to in the CrazyWeb post cited by Wonkette (a 1-foot thick document). Sure, could be crazed rantings at CrazyWeb, but the stuff we’re seeing going on right now definitely doesn’t follow any script we’d have predicted from Dubya-DeadEye&Company. My guess is that the consensus they are telling the media they are working towards is not the same document; the consensus document is what they will agree to disclose to us, not the working plan. The working plan is already in use.

edit: Think about the 9/11 Commission Report. A lot of agreed-upon fluff.

Rayne – Interesting point about making it public, I’ve thought about that too. I’m thinking not also.

Mack @ 205

My fear is that the troops might end up individually liable for mistakes perpetrated while following orders.
Admittedly my understanding of the legal ramnifications are inadequate,
The only thing I am certain of is that it is a huge fucking mess which was perpetrated by our Neocon Administration.

kirk murphy @ 199

I missed the “unfair to US troops” exemption in international law and binding treaties on human rights.

I’m always happy to review a citation :)

Mack, I want all of our troops to return home healthy in body, mind, spirit, and ethics.

The Nuremberg Trials eliminated the “following orders” defense.

US servicepersons – PHYSICIANS, PSYCHOLOGISTS, Nurse Practitioners, Physician’s Assistants, and Nurses most prominently among them – who abet torture and thus violate international human rights law are liable.

Besides, both the Hague and Germany offer war criminals better health care than the VA gives Iraq War Vets.

Cozumel — well, if it’s any consolation, assuming that the CrazyWeb “rantings” contained a nugget of truth, Baker’s blacklisted every one of Bush’s advisors to date. They will not be consulted on how to get out of this debacle. They’ll get the same public copy of the consensus plan that we get.

What still doesn’t make sense is Cheney in a diplomatic role. Absolutely the last guy I would ever send. It’s not something from the Dubya-DeadEye playbook, that’s for sure. But in some sick way, it does gel; the Saudis surely must have been included in the original Energy Task Force, if not directly, indirectly, and the Energy Task Force most likely represented the early game plan for what would happen to Iraq. They’d be a likely choice to help with wind down of the same objectives of the Energy Task Force, as well as providing cover to the Bushistas (asylum for Sunnis, possible asylum for Bushista members, assurances that the oil market will be propped up during the next two years, and so on).

Cozumel @ 206

Rayne @ 204

Cozumel 200 — you know, I think they already have a game plan from which they are working, alluded to in the CrazyWeb post cited by Wonkette (a 1-foot thick document). Sure, could be crazed rantings at CrazyWeb, but the stuff we’re seeing going on right now definitely doesn’t follow any script we’d have predicted from Dubya-DeadEye&Company. My guess is that the consensus they are telling the media they are working towards is not the same document; the consensus document is what they will agree to disclose to us, not the working plan. The working plan is already in use.

edit: Think about the 9/11 Commission Report. A lot of agreed-upon fluff.

Rayne – Interesting point about making it public, I’ve thought about that too. I’m thinking not also.

Edit also ; ) What I meant to say is I don’t think they’ll be ANY public report

On that we’ll agree to disagree; maybe we should make a wager? heh. I really think there will be a public copy, with portions alledgedly redacted, just for the dog-and-pony show of making everything nice and shiny politically. Look, bipartisanship!! Look!! Content!!

And about as much substance as a reality television program.

Rayne – Cheney going to Saudi Arabia was for show, for whatever mutually beneficial reason. What, phone call wouldn’t do?

Rayne @ 210

On that we’ll agree to disagree; maybe we should make a wager? heh. I really think there will be a public copy, with portions alledgedly redacted, just for the dog-and-pony show of making everything nice and shiny politically. Look, bipartisanship!! Look!! Content!!

And about as much substance as a reality television program.

Rayne – How about $5! LOL I don’t think we’ll see ANYTHING in the way of a report public ; )

Cozumel — could be, but I have my doubts that DeadEye would simply take his entire entourage (and it’s HUGE, what with all the medical staff and equipment), just for a dog-and-pony show.

There’s something else going on here; the buzz about DeadEye going to Iraq and then not going to Iraq, on top of the buzz about the 6 Sunnis burned to dead with no corresponding evidence this happened seems a bit too contrived, given the timing.

I’d better hit the hay; we could spend all night at this and still end up with the same junta in office anyhow. ;-)

Oh, and you’re on. You give $5 to a candidate of my choice, I give $5 to a candidate of your choice, BlueAmerica2008.

My $5 says there’s a publicly released report from the ISG, even if it’s pure tripe worth less than the ink on its page(s).

Your $5 says nothing from ISG on paper sees the light of the media’s cameras in any way.

Agreed?

p.s. I’ll check for concurrence in the morning. Must hit the hay to regen my persistent level of skepticism.

Rayne @ 214

Oh, and you’re on. You give $5 to a candidate of my choice, I give $5 to a candidate of your choice, BlueAmerica2008.

My $5 says there’s a publicly released report from the ISG, even if it’s pure tripe worth less than the ink on its page(s).

Your $5 says nothing from ISG on paper sees the light of the media’s cameras in any way.

Agreed?

Agreed! Nite ; )

Your $5 says nothing from ISG on paper sees the light of the media’s cameras in any way.

I should have read this contract a little closer before I signed it, I hate it when that happens ; ) An addendum that includes leaks, ouch! I’m screwed : )

Cozumel — Nah, let’s do this: if it gets leaked before November 2008, they wanted us to see it for a specific reason.

But if it gets leaked after November 2008, it really was supposed to be secret.

I’m going to dig in the sofa for change, anyway you look at it; we’re dealing with James Baker the Fixer after all. Race you!

Rayne @
208

Cozumel — well, if it’s any consolation, assuming that the CrazyWeb “rantings” contained a nugget of truth, Baker’s blacklisted every one of Bush’s advisors to date. They will not be consulted on how to get out of this debacle. They’ll get the same public copy of the consensus plan that we get.

What still doesn’t make sense is Cheney in a diplomatic role. Absolutely the last guy I would ever send. It’s not something from the Dubya-DeadEye playbook, that’s for sure. But in some sick way, it does gel; the Saudis surely must have been included in the original Energy Task Force, if not directly, indirectly, and the Energy Task Force most likely represented the early game plan for what would happen to Iraq. They’d be a likely choice to help with wind down of the same objectives of the Energy Task Force, as well as providing cover to the Bushistas (asylum for Sunnis, possible asylum for Bushista members, assurances that the oil market will be propped up during the next two years, and so on).

But what if the real plan of the trip is to get Cheney out of their hair? Keep him abroad meeting diplomats while the grownups are having their meetings.