Did I ever mention to you guys that I went to Japan? It was the summer of 2001 and I had been studying Japanese for a year. My professor, Morisensei, convinced me that the only way to learn the language was to enroll in a two-month summer program in a school on the northernmost island in a town called Hakodate.
"Great!" I thought, "I've always liked to go to other countries and I've been fascinated with Japanese culture since I was a little kid. It'll be awsome!"
It wasn't awesome. It wasn't awesome at all. I came back after three and a half weeks. In fact, it was one of the most miserable experiences of my life. Ye gods, what a hell-hole.
Everything in Japan talks to you except the people. The sreetcar talks, the stove talks, the refigerator talks. Remember those talking cars in the 80's? "Lights are on!", "Key is in the ignition!" Remember how much you hated that? Japanese people didn't hate it at all. They invented that shit and they looooove it.
Even the toilet talks.
Of course, I couldn't understand a goddamn word, so what did I care? Except that it was a constant reminder that I had no fucking idea what was going on at any given time.
I did understand some things, but it was generally enough to make me think I didn't want to know any more. For instance, many times when something (some lamp-post or bicycle rack or disembodied Train Voice) tells you a piece of information, they tag on a little aphorism, "GANBATTE, KUDASAI!!" ("Work hard today!") or "Good girls don't smoke!" or the one that sent a chill up my spine every time I heard it, "The nail that sticks out GETS HAMMERED IN!" Have a nice day!
A quote from this essay sums up what that means, exactly:
Japan is unthinkable without groups. Perhaps they developed from the co-operative labour needed in the scattered villages of a rice-growing culture. To this day the threat of Mura Hachibu ('rejection from the village' or ostracism) by family, university alumnus league, company or even golf club would be enough to bring the most determined social deviant to heel. It can sometimes seem as if the only escape from the demands of the group lies in madness.
The group is everything there. There is no room for the maverick rebel, the determined non-conformist, the rugged individual. Here in the west, we cherish that quality. To us, the individual is sacred. To them? Anathema. There's just no space for that in their society. And the social sanctioning is fierce and swift.
This is why Japan has no significant women's movement. In fact, the word for an unmarried woman over 30 in Japanese who keeps her money and doesn't have kids? "Parasite" woman. Not because she counts on anyone for a living or a meal ticket, but because she's not using her womb for the good of the nation, not contributing to the economy by buying refrigerators or diapers or a mini-van.
This story, which I heard on "All Things Considered" today as I was driving back from my mom's place in South Georgia brought it all crashing back.
To wit:
All Things Considered, November 24, 2006 · Many young people in Japan have become hermits — retreating into worlds that consist of little more than their rooms. And that's difficult for families. Michele Norris talks with Michael Zielenziger, author of Shutting Out the Sun: How Japan Created Its Own Lost Generation.
Zielenziger profiles a caste of Japanese youth called hikikomori, mostly young men who lock themselves away in their bedrooms, fearful of society's expectations. He also talks about Japan's aging working class and the tendency of young women to shun motherhood.
It's a riveting (though disturbing) story and I would love to read the book (I've added it to my Amazon Wish List.)(HINT!!), but the thing it got me thinking today is how grateful I am to live in this culture, this paradigm that rewards individuality and makes room for the oddball. We think the US can be a stifling, conformist culture, but in the west, we're lucky in ways that we don't even begin to understand. And I'm not just talking about America here. We didn't invent that, contrary to what Pox News might insist. Let's not forget Beethoven, Michelangelo, Copernicus, or any of those guys. We come from a few thousand years of respect for the iconoclast.
I was playing my friend Daiji some of my old music one day and he said, "You are very, very creative, Ferguson-san!"
I shrugged it off like I do most compliments, "Thank you," I said, "That and three bucks will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks." Or something to that effect.
Daiji shook his head, "Japanese people, we are not creative. We can copy, but we don't create."
"Don't be silly!" I said, "What about Sei Shonagon? Or Murasaki's The Tale of Genji?"
"That was a thousand years ago," he said, "It's not like that now."
I wanted to say, "Well, then maybe you guys shouldn't kill all your weirdos. That's who thinks creatively, the freaks who aren't like everybody else." But I was too polite to ever say such a thing, especially to someone as open and kind as Daijisan.
But this Thanksgiving weekend, that's what I am really, really thankful for, that I live in a society that equates uniqueness with greatness rather than considering it a moral failing. I thank god that I was raised in a family who taught me to be true to myself, to fight for what I believe in, and to strive to be the best person I can be. (Thanks Mom and Dad!! I'm sorry I was such a pain in the ass!)
What about you guys?



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TRex !!
Leftovers!
TeddySanFran @
1
*smooch*
Thanks for my gift, T.
You da man.
TRex-san ichiban desu!
EvilDrPuma @ 4
Arigato gozaimasu.
Thanks for sharing that, TRex.
Some of what you describe is more widespread, not limited to Japan alone. The hammered nail, for instance, is a parable that a Chinese friend from Hong Kong once used to describe a social concern of Chinese and Asian cultures. Great book I’d recommend for understanding Asian perspective is The Geography of Thought : How Asians and Westerners Think Differently…and Why. The text takes a great stab at explaining this, but there is still a shortfall since the disparity between Western and Asian consciousness is articulated by a Westerner. (I’d love to see a corresponding text written by an Asian.) In short, Asians tend to see the entire picture all at once, where Westerners see the specific; we are taught from birth to differentiate and individualize, where Asians are nurtured to seek harmony across the whole. It’s this difference that makes American management style desirable in the east as it is much more competitive, and yet we can see the corruption that can come from this kind of dog-eat-dog work style.
In some ways, thinking Asian is more like that of Western women, and thinking Western is more like thinking as a man. Or at least as a woman who’s worked most of her life in male-dominated areas, that’s what it looks like to me. Except for the society-owned co-oped uterus thing, of course. Yeesh.
[edit: or maybe I see this differently since I’m of mixed heritage, Polynesian-Asian and Caucasian…?]
TRex @ 5
Do itashimashite.
I don’t honestly blame you–individually, most of the Japanese folks I’ve met are a lot of fun. But I don’t think I’d enjoy the country all that much. China at least has a place for the individualist…it’s called Taoism.
Twisted Martini
EPU’d from the previous thread:
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 118
Subaru!
I also think the airline seats would be a wee bit constricted for a 60 ft. therapod.
I feel exactly the same way about America that you do about Japan. And I’m an ordinary-looking white native-born upper-class American: I can’t imagine what it’s like for people who look as well as act weird here. The cult of physical beauty, the regimented purchasing decisions, the endless tribal affiliations… the only good thing I can say about America is that it’s much less dreadful than any of the several other countries I’ve lived in.
Seriously, that thing about celebrating the individual? In theory only. Actual individuation is cause for shunning here. Try to say you don’t care about the local football team, or that you don’t really care who wins American Idol, or that you think Christianity is a bunch of silly superstitions. Hell, try something as “different” as eating lunch by yourself instead of discussing what was on Heroes last night with your coworkers. Bleah.
Thanks Fini. Just curious, what are some good Indy blogs?
I gotta admit that kernel corn on a pizza at a Tokyo Pizza Hut was quite pleasing to the eye, but not so tasty that I’d order it that way here at home.
Jane Hamsher @ 10
Not a problem if it is Japan Air. They’re used to megamonsters.
Dana @
9
Bless you.
I bet YOU had good food on Thanksgiving, Dana. Spill it. What did you eat?
Mad Dogs @ 14
We need to find Toshiro Mifune! And tell him to bring his binoculars!
Yes,
Be very thankful for your mom and dad. My dad passed away when I was fairly young and we disagreed quite a bit. I was 40 years old when I finally realized how much he understood about the real world. It pains me to think that we would see eye to eye on so many things if he were still around. Happy Thanksgiving dad.
Regards to all.
Jane Hamsher @
10
I sat next to Godzilla. Good-looooooking, oooh! You don’t know! But damn, that lizard had some bad breath. Harsh.
felagund — oh man, do you have that down. Especially kids in schools here in the U.S.; they are merciless on one another, pummeling anyone who is not the norm. I swear I spend an hour every day talking with my third-grader about how okay he is after all the crap he’s been through all day.
Mad Dogs — funny, that’s how I feel about pineapple on pizza. Interesting concept, but absolutely unacceptable, a perversion of a lovely food product that cannot be entertained.
Jane, has *ilson been in contact with you lately? Now that Twisted drew my attention to the issue I have not seen him around much either here on FDL or in other local blog threads.
Mad Dogs @ 14
Pilot: Uh, folks, we’re experiencing some moderate Godzilla-related turbulence at this time, so I’m going to go ahead and ask you to put your seatbelts back on. When we get to 35 thousand feet, he usually does let go, so from there on out, all we have to worry about is Mothra, and, uh, we do have reports he’s tied up with Gamera and Rodan at the present time. Thank you very much.
–”The Simpsons”
Well, I have to say I’m very glad my family is here. We have a heavy dose of “weird” in our DNA back through five generations. If we lived in Japan apparently you’d be hearing “wham” often.
Dana @ 9
Wakarimasen.
Kon ban wa.
Rayne @ 19
Agreed. A proper pizza is a cheese- and sauce-enhanced, fire-and-forget flatbread delivery system for a dead pig. (Beef is acceptable if required by religious proscription.)
I was bullied in school, too, but while you get sort of hazed here, you get destroyed there. Crushed. It’s not just the kids that make fun of the weird kid. It’s the adults, too.
They have a ridiculously high suicide rate. 30,000 people in 2005.
There’s a current Japanese anime series about a hikikomori. The main character is hounded by a woman who is determined to turn him onto a proper “salaryman”.
Welcome to the NHK – NHK ni Yokoso
NHK (Nihon Hikikomori Kyokai), or Japan Social Withdrawal Association
“Since Sato Tetsuhiro, a 22-year-old man, dropped out from the university, he hasn’t gone out anywhere except convenience stores, and he has slept 16 hours a day. He has been spending such lazy days for 3 years.”
It’s available as a fansub (unlicenced anime) from animesuki.com
Pineapple and Ham. It’s a california thing.
Twisted Martini @ 12
Well, to be honest with you, I am reluctant to refer you to any local blogs in Indy. The local political scene here is very petty and extremely insider driven. I tend to ignore most of them because this city is kinda reversed from the situation nationally.
Here in Indy the corrupt insiders I am fighting are all local conservative Democrats from the DLC wing. The local GOP is in total disarray, but Indy does not have many progressive folks here for me to work with. I’m currently in discussions with local Green Party folks about working with me to take over the Marion County Democrats from the DLC types.
Great post, dear, it’s exactly the thing I needed before The Orange Kommander’s Favorite TeeVee starts at 9: BattGal!
American Culture has given me a heritage not of iconoclasm, but primogeniture. Descended from a long line of second sons of second sons, all sent to explore the frontier while their older brother got the goods, I find Manifest Destiny to have benefitted those who stayed home in London, Boston, New York, Chicago, Cleveland, St. Louis, and Denver. Thanksgiving doesn’t seem so far long ago when your names and your brothers’ include passed-down attendees at the first (Hi, Uncle Squanto!)
Thanks for chance to reflect on this, TRex. You always make me think (and talk!!) so much.
Oh, and you are more than welcome — isn’t that a HOOT!
EvilDrPuma — I was referring to the pineapple, but I understand your perspective. Fruit other than olives and tomatoes does not belong on a savory mediterranean flatbread.
I also detest finding raisins in salads and baked goods, or in meat dishes. Ugh. I hate surprises; they look like unexpected rabbit turds in the wrong foods.
Rayne @ 29
707!! Quite the visual there Rayne!
Years ago when I was about 7, my dad broke open one of those little white portable radios and pulled out something called a “Transistor.” It looked like a three legged spider in a top hat, and he told me that this little thing was going to change the whole world.
Fast forward, and I’ve uploaded over 40 Gigabytes of audio this to folks around the world, and we are very near to a time when learning pan-dimensional awareness will be as easy as playing a video game with a billion of your closest friends.
Thanks for breaking that stupid radio, Dad.
Change how Christmas is done in this country!
Rayne @ 29
HA!!
I am so with you on that.
The other day I got so excited because I saw what looked like chocolate chip cookies in the break room at the station. Then I got up close and saw that they were oatmeal raisin.
I fucking hate oatmeal raisin cookies. What’s the point? That’s not a cookie. It’s a breakfast-puck.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 28
The Hamilton County Dems aren’t much better. As Harrison Ullman used to say (and he would have loved this blog BTW) thy’re all Republicrats in Indiana.
TRex @ 32
I might occasionally eat raisins straight, especially in case of constipation. But the damn things have no place in combination with other foodstuffs.
Breakfast puck?
707
If I ever bake oatmeal raisin cookies again they will henceforth be known as “Breakfast Pucks”.
Fini – heh. I think it’s a childhood aversion that I never shook off, the raisin thing. I actually love raisins, plain old, muscat or golden, love them. But Mom used to sic me on making this disgusting carrot salad every Thanksgiving and Christmas, grated carrots with raisins and salad dressing. Ugh. Makes me queasy thinking about it. I think that cutting up my knuckles on the grater reinforced my disgust. Raisins simply do not belong near carrots. For starters.
Now, I have made oatmeal cookies with chocolate-covered raisins in them, and that was a kind of improvement, as were butterscotch chips.
TRex @ 37
Sure, but chocolate can improve damn near anything. It’s the great Aztec contribution to world cuisine. Almost makes up for all of that cutting your heart out and throwing your corpse down the steps business.
I’ve always thought carrot-raisin salad was some misguided attempt to create a look of fall via pine straw and pine cones. It’s disgusting, though, and I love carrots.
We should invent a carrot salad that’s actually good. Toss grated carrot with lime and pepper and chiles and red onions and purple cabbage. Now that’s a fitting fate for a carrot.
I once won a blue ribbon at the Bethlehem Fair for my oatmeal chocolate chip cookies … but they depended on the ancient gas stove in our house at the time for their success … no other stove has ever turned out quite the right consistency!
Oatmeal cookies, good. Especially with real vanilla in them.
But no f*cking raisins. Definitely a breakfast puck, like hardened granola vomit. Blech.
Twisted Martini @ 33
Harrison Ullman would have started blogging as soon as Blogger came online. This city lost its main progressive voice when he died. NUVO has turned into a cartoon of itself. I will make one recommendation and one recommendation only, check out Ruth Holliday’s blog at http://www.ruthholliday.com. She’s one of the only folks still speaking Truth around here. As for me, I’m trying to get the hell out of dodge before I lose my damn mind. And they wonder why there is a brain drain in Indiana.
And cucumbers.
TRex @ 37
With a dollop of fudge on ‘em and topped with a skosh of whipped cream.
All right, now who’s got the munchies?
TRex @ 15
We had turkey, stuffing (100-yr old recipe), sweet potatoes, mashed potatoes, gravy, fresh green beans, and for dessert, Mr. D. made pumpkin pie (also my grandmother’s recipe for filling and crust) and apple pie. Fresh whipped cream. Also good in coffee.
As for pizza, after Chicago and Milwaukee pizza, there’s nothing as good. I completely avoid “designer” pizza–the fruity kind, the ham or hamburger, artichokes, asparagus, etc. I don’t think of those types as pizza. It’s just crust with toppings. In VA, the crust is too thin or too thick, the sauce too skimpy or too much, the cheese in wrong proportion to the sauce.
EvilDrPuma @ 38
The Aztecs were not brutal. The cutting out of the heart and corpse-tossing is analagous to squeezing the chocolates in a Whitman Sampler to make sure you’re not the one getting stuck with the fucking cherry liqueur.
I don’t know if you made up that word, but I think I love it.
What do I think about this? Whew, there’s a book or two in that subject.
What I think, broadly and generally, is that America has its own kind of conformity that’s probably as widely expressed in society as it is in Japan, but in different ways. There is a generalized expectation that everyone believe in American exceptionalism and to “support” that view, just as there’s a generalized expectation that everyone conform in accepted ways–to view others in terms of what they own (that’s one of the byproducts of increasingly sophisticated advertising).
Corporate culture is as pervasive here as it is in Japan; it’s just expressed in different ways. And, let’s remember that the Japanese are no longer the hardest working people on earth–we are.
All that said, there’s more room here around the margins for weirdness, for the ability to find niches. Some of that is just a matter of space. I think you could put all of Japan inside California with a few thousand square miles to spare, but the population density would quadruple. What might that do to California’s innate weirdness? Probably, out of necessity, that would squeeze a lot of it out.
Americans have always had the ability to remake themselves simply by moving far away–without giving up citizenship. Bad marriage, succession of failures at work, simply move and become someone new. That’s one of minor themes of The Great Gatsby, the Horatio Alger series, the dime novels of the turn of the century.
I think your friend is right, generally, but certainly not in the specifics. Japan’s had a strong film industry, and has produced excellent (and certainly, oddball–think of Mishima) writers, along with a very, very long tradition of artists, so it’s not a matter of Japan having no creative impulses. It’s just that the tendencies to conformity are stronger.
As with most things, it’s more complicated than “Japan is culturally restrictive and the US is not.” We are in some ways approaching Japan (what, after all, are the culture wars but attempts to impose a uniform cultural system on the country?) while Japan is obviously seeing the psychological effects of subordinating the individual to the whole.
And cucumbers? do you mean a carrot and cucumber salad? I have one someplace, TRex, an Asian recipe come to think of it. Very light, palate cleansing, refreshing. I’ll see if I can find it.
And no f*cking rabbit turds in it, either.
TRex @ 43
In oatmeal cookies?
Man, what those therapods will snarf on when you turn your back.
felagund @ 11
This varies tremendously from location to location w/in the US… Some areas are far more tolerant of individuality than others – and they aren’t always the areas you might think. There are swirls and eddys of individualism, places where (ironically) the oddball can gather and fit in; they’re all over the US, little freak-friendly zones. Also, some professions are far more tolerant of eccentricities than others…
Your Mileage May Vary, as they say.
skosh = of Korean origin
[edit: nope, I remember now, it’s Japanese “sukoshi”; a Korean War vet told me he heard it used in Korea, must have been slang. My father used it a lot, a Naval intel officer of Polynesian-Asian background, hard to say where he picked it up.]
Brain drain? In Indiana? With a Senator like Evan Blah, how can we go wrong? Seriously, they are still arguing over whether daylight savings time is a good thing.
As a friend of mine said, “in New York it’s 9:00, in LA it’s 6:00 and in Indiana it’s 1955.”
Yes.
Now I’m hungry again.
Can I get raisins on the side? Hate to tell you Rayne, but I loved that carrot & raisin salad as a kid.
Twisted Martini @ 54
Communist.
Or, I could have waited for montag @ 47 and left it with a simple ‘what s/he said’.
Twisted Martini @ 54
Returning to the topic of the thread: do you have a wakizashi, or would you like to borrow mine?
TRex @ 55
I think that the production of carrot & raisin salad should be nationalized…
Well, yes and no. I know that’s the stereotype and there’s truth to it, but Japan has produced a ton of creative people … it’s highly desireable to get a job in the anime or game industries, and these exports have become a huge source of cultural “soft power” for Japan. Maybe I’m conflating “creative” with “non-conformist”, but I’ve seen enough changes in Japan over the last 20 years to where I don’t think the old paradigms fit as well. They’re in the middle of a gut-wrenching societal change as they adjust to a different economy than the one that propelled them to #2 in the world, an aging population, and younger generations that don’t quite buy into everything “Japanese” as their parents did.
Yeah, but there’s something going on in the sense of huge numbers of women not marrying, continuing to work past their 30’s (because it used to be that they were supposedly like “Christmas Cakes” … no one wanted them after they passed 25), making their own money and not settling down.
Also, Rayne @ 51, “skosh = of Korean origin” ? As opposed to “sukoshi”, Japanese for “a little bit”?
Twisted Martini @ 52
I know, we just had a discussion yesterday at Thanksgiving dinner in which my sister in law’s brother was expressing dismay that we switched to DST. It took all my patience to bite my tongue and allow him to have a 5 minute paean to backwardness.
TRex @ 46
Tis a really fine word and in my total ignorance, it is even in keeping with your Japanese-flavored post:
What about Sudoku? “The number puzzle sweeping the nation!” Valley Girl and I think the same on that game creation.
Respectful Dissent @ 59
You’ll never get a nationalist from either country to admit it, but Korean and Japanese appear to be fairly closely related linguistically. The grammars, at least, are very, very similar. I’ve never had an opportunity to pick up more than a few words of Korean, though, so I can’t say much about the phonetics.
Here, TRex, this one is pretty close, saves me from having to dig through the boxes in the basement for my cookbook that has the right recipe.
I think you want to tweak the dressing a bit; I’d start with a little less rice wine vinegar, add a scant teaspoon of white sugar, a healthy squeeze of lime juice, and only 1 teaspoon of toasted sesame oil (they don’t specify toasted or untoasted in this recipe), salt to taste. I also add a few dashes of red pepper flakes or a slivered fresh jalapeno (hold the seeds) if I want a bit more kick, depending on whether I have jalapeno on hand or not.
Yum, I think I might fix this to serve with some grilled salmon tomorrow night.
You want to see a Japanese person freak out? Tell them that scientists have mapped their genome and that they are actually descendants of Korean settlers of the Japanese islands.
That just burns them up.
So does skosh rhyme with squash or the first syllable of socialism?
Twisted Martini — you can have my share of carrot-raisin salad in perpetuity. I might even be brave enough to grate carrots now, if you want to finish the rest of the prep. Just don’t make me eat it. Agh.
Respectful Dissent — I edited what I said about “skosh” after another 30 seconds of thought. We’re on the same page.
The latter, I believe.
TRex @ 66
I’ve always heard it with a long “o” amongst people in the military.
Rayne @ 64
Hell, yeah!
That sounds awesome.
TRex @ 66
Long o sound like in socialism. Sko’sh.
EvilDrPuma @ 63
Grammatically, they’re similar, yah. Phonetically, however, they’re not, so that I’m betting “sukoshi” doesn’t have a homonym in Korean. Words based on Chinese characters are often similar (”shinbun” in Japanese and “shimbum” in Korean, I think, although ironically the Chinese use a different set of characters for newspaper … ), but not because of something intrinsic and common to both languages. So far as I know.
I also know that for whatever grammatical reasons, Koreans and Japanese have a much easier time learning each others’ languages than Westerners do!
TRex @ 65
And yet, it is so. It’s also pretty clear from genetic, skeletal, and archaeological evidence that the Ainu are the descendants of the Jomon inhabitants of Japan, and that (contrary to popular stereotype of Ainu as eternal hunter-gatherers and therefore “backwards”) Ainu ancestors on Hokkaido were farming from at least the 7th or 8th century until sometime after 1300. I’m sure that information doesn’t go over well either, but the archaeology on Hokkaido is rather convincing.
TRex @ 66
The latter. It’s a long “o.”
I have a comment stuck in moderation if someone could unclog the toobz.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 72
Paging Ted Stevens…
EvilDrPuma 71 — much more specific information out there that Japanese will have to deal with, sooner or later. See Dr. Spencer Wells’ work on mapping the spread of the human genome through his tracking of common genetic mutations documented in haploid types. Fascinating stuff.
Twisted Martini @ 74
… and his Tom Swift electronic roto-rooter.
(btw, one of mine is there, too, for no apparently good reason.)
Rayne @ 74
I might take a look, but my practical knowledge of genetics is limited to the rudiments that I’ve needed to teach a human origins class effectively. “Haploid types” meaning, I would presume, sex-linked traits?
Everybody refresh. We had a clog in the toobz. I opened the gate, but we may have missed some things.
I think the WordPress comment moderation plugin every once in a while will single out random victims for moderation as a warning to the general population like Japanese guards in WW2 would kill a new prisoner in every batch of POWs brought to internment camps.
I love it when you talk dirty.
Yeah, but TRex, what I say on late-nite stays on late-nite.
I can’t even do the “easy” Sudoku puzzles.
Dana @ 85
Neither can I. I simply don’t get the idea behind the game. I never was any good with math anyway.
Doesn’t Subaru refer to the “seven sisters” constellation? Hence, the stars in the logo?
montag >
also note that much of Japan is mountain/unuseable space making the crowding greater than many think
Their creativity has, historically, been expressed differently & in ways not obvious to those that have never lived on an island &/or in a feudal situation
And Mishima is truly one of the core human examples of “oddball”…
Note they did turn away from firearms for a little over 200 years which I think is an interesting social comment
“We are accustomed to the new land yet attached to the old country” – anon
Is everybody off grating carrots?
Dana @ 89
Nah, I was fixing me a turkey sammich.
EvilDrPuma — affirmative on the haploid types.
Dana, Fini — Sudoku isn’t a math game, it’s a logic game. Here’s the easiest solution to any puzzle.
EPU’d:
TeddySanFran @ 106
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 90
I had one for lunch with Woebers horseradish sauce. Like Miracle Whip with horseradish in it. Wicked hot but good stuff!
yup, pineapple and ham – a California thing…
somehow, it tastes just fine in this state…
I love horseradish, and I just put some Kraft Horseradish made with Miracle Whip on my sammich. Yup, its even in a squeezebottle.
Mmm. Turkey sammich with wasabi mayonnaise. Mmm.
I need to hit the hay if I’m starting to get hungry. Sleep cycle is out of whack now after that NeverDull huffing binge the night before T-day, should have been in bed 2 hours ago.
One last comment: I suspect the culture conformity issue is driven in no small part by population density. Remember how rats act when overcrowded? As long as they all behave in predictable, orderly fashion, they are less violent. Probably a social adaptation to accommodate crowding. Bet the inverse is also true, at the other end of the spectrum; in more rural areas with lower density, it’s easier to pick out a “friendly” at a distance by similarity of behavior. Diversity would be tolerated most in groups somewhere between overcrowding and sparsely populated clusters.
TSF, wouldn’t that be something for Pelosi to do! Ha!
Rayne, Thanks for the puzzle logic. Seems so busy, though. Better than sitting there feeling stupid, I guess.
OldCoastie @ 94
California is surrounded by some strange space-time phenomenon. It affects some people’s critical reasoning skills–hence, they vote for Ah-nuld. In other people, it affects the part of the somatosensory cortex responsible for the interpretation of taste stimuli.
oh, Evil! You funny!
I’m a fifth generation Californian – I can only imagine how multigenerationally screwed up I might be!
Yeah, and look what happened to him.
Respectful Dissent >
Chinese & Japanese both use similar character sets (Japanese uses additional “special” characters they have added over historical time) & many times folks will communicate in person by writing back & forth to each other using the common characters when they can not speak each others language. Some of early Japanese culture (from ~ 800 AD) was “transferred” from China to Japan via trade & political relations.
And from what vantage point on the planet do you suppose Japan is actually “the land of the rising sun” ?
“History is indeed little more than the register of the crimes, follies and misfortunes of mankind.” – Edward Gibbon
OldCoastie @ 99
But, not because of pineapple and ham… that sounds to me like an impulse imported from Polynesia. :)
I won’t hazard guesses about the space-time-dimensional warpage there, though. :)
TRex >
Yeeeouch !
“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.” – Galileo Galilei
In 1986, my two adopted Korean kids joined my family at the age of 4 & 7 speaking only 4 words of English, guitar, orange, piano & Olympic. It was quite an adventure for all of us. In 6 months, Mom was quite fluent in child verson of Korean and it was years before I could change the inherent language issues they came with.
The Korean language sentence structure would sound like this – “Three book I have”. There are no articles or plurals. The reverse the structure. Even into college the kids would have me proof read their writing’s because they continue to have tense, pleural issues and either not enough articles or too many.
still remember the words to a childrens song “augie so” which is about “baby cow”
The derogitory term for asians “gook” was taken from the terms that Koreans call themshelves which is hunggook which means the korean people and megook which is the American people. Of course my knowledge is from children teaching me to their culture and language.
montag >
I think so. I had never heard of that combo until I ran across it in Hawaii back in the middle of last century
“…the art of life is more like navigation than warfare…” – Alan Watts
TRex @ 100
Well, no one’s suggesting the emulation of his end, but he was a reasonably prolific writer who was redefining post-war Japanese literature, and that’s a creative act. (!) He was, as well, interacting with new post-war photographers in early multimedia ventures. He got progressively weirder as time went by, but, so have many western artists and writers.
The suggestion was that Japan either had no creative impulses or had completely subsumed them for the presumed benefits of conformity, and there’s a wealth of instant examples suggesting that such is not true. Mishima was one, Kurosawa is another, as are the wealth of artists and artisans who still work at their craft in Japan. There are still a goodly number of potters in Japan, for example, producing excellent pottery by traditional wood-fired kiln methods.
I think this is important. No matter what society imposes as a societal good, even if it is conformity, there is one universal–creativity is a uniquely human and individual impulse; it is not something solely shaped by nations or governments or societies.
daCascadian @ 105
montag >
Certainly a big talent that was very productive
“Yukio Mishima (三島 由紀夫, Mishima Yukio?) was the public name of Kimitake Hiraoka (平岡 公威, Hiraoka Kimitake?, January 14, 1925—November 25, 1970), a Japanese author and playwright, famous for both his nihilistic post-war writing and the circumstances of his suicide…” from Wikipedia
“The palest ink is better than the best memory.” – Chinese Proverb
I should not use the “quote this comment” feature. I keep burying my comments in the middle of the quoted comment.
neurophius @ 109
Just make sure you’ve scrolled all the way down. The first blank space you see may not necessarily be where you’re supposed to write.
It’s okay if you don’t use it, though. We’ll still love you.
Pelosi constituents who’d like to endorse my proposal to her may do so here.
My note to the Speaker-to-be:
Thanks, T.
Well, I’ve had my second piece of pecan pie with whipped cream, having had my second turkey dinner earlier this evening.
Time for bed.
neurophius >
Yes, that was what I was referring to; it is/was called a “Hometowner” & also came with chilled sliced tomatoes on top
Yum !
“The bond of our common humanity is stronger than the divisiveness of our fears and prejudices.” – James Carter
G’nite, TRex-o-rrific, and the rest of you firepups of the lake!
TeddySanFran @ 111
Good job, Teddy
thanks!
Teddy is a rock star.
It’s all about balance. The need for individual freedom must always be balanced against the needs of the group.
USA has virtually unlimited freedom for the individual. This allows for a lot of undirected creativity but severely hampers group efforts. Unfortunately, it prevents effective action on climate change or universal health care. It also means our cities are almost incomprehensibly ugly because effective zoning is nearly impossible.
The dangers of excessive groupthink are also well catalogued. The greatest danger is that when an overly conformist society is confronted with a need to change, there no one capable of even suggesting possible alternatives.
In my mind, the best examples of a good balance between individual and social needs are found in Scandinavia. All the indicators of individualism are proudly on display–their arts are often bleeding edge, Sweden has the highest per capita rate of patents granted in the world, their explorers have been sticking their necks out since at least the 9th century, etc.
And yet the Scandinavians can enforce quite ridged social conformity. The have arguably the best-functioning medical system on planet earth, their public schools are superb, and effective town planning produces truly charming urban life.
Once, in Finland, I was shown an interesting side benefit of healthy conformity. This woman I knew had twin 7-year-old daughters that every day in the summer would swim at a beach of a HUGE lake called Saimaa. When asked if she didn’t mind all the time she spent tending to her daughters, she looked at me like I was clueless. Even though her apartment was six blocks from the lake, her daughters went swimming on their own. “Aren’t you worried about them swimming alone?” I asked. “They are NOT swimming alone,” she responded sternly, “there is always an adult on that beach. Do you really think any of my neighbors would let a child drown simply because it is not one of their own?”
The mistress-strangler finds work.
Mad Dogs @
63
During my(hellish)year in Korea, a commonly used phrase was skoshy chingo. Loosely translated it meant little friends, meaning a case of the crabs.
I haven’t heard anyone mention Hakodate in a very long time, and I have to say, your experiences were a lot different than mine. Waaay back in 1959 while in the Navy, my ship, the Yorktown, went there, and it was one of the high points of my 4 year hitch. We were the first American’s most of the town had ever seen and were treated like rock stars, at least until they got to know us. I remember how the kids would follow us around getting our autographs, and how tired we soon got of signing our names in their books, and would sign movie stars and singers names instead, I have since wondered how many people there actually think they actually have Elvis Presley’s signature !
I need the hive mind’s assistance identifying a piece of music. There is currently running on TV these days a commercial for Visa that shows a very busy cafeteria line which gets screwed up by a guy paying for his meal with cash instead of a Visa debit card.
The music playing in the background is an older piece of music with a very industrial bouncing low end famous from cartoons made by Warner Brothers from the 40s. I have never been able to identify that piece of music in my entire lifetime and would love to know the name of it so I could obtain it. Does anyone here know the name of it or know where I could track down the musical credit for this?
sometimes Pam, over at the House Blend, just makes me laugh out loud:
Ashcroft’s boobie-free portrait unveiled at Justice Department
The group is all meme is also a part of the authoritarian follower mindset. A member strays from the path and his fellows will savagely turn on him. Conform or be outcast.
Trex – do you read Murakami? he has said that the salary man way of life is destroying creativity and sees his work as a counter argument. I haven’t read his last two (?) collections of stories but his novels fascinate.
Meanwhile BBC tonight is reporting on an interview with Bolton who is mouthing off against Syria and Iran … Beeb is commenting on how this might be tricky statements given the expectation that the ISG will recommend some sort of rapprochement to deal with Iraq.
I do love Murakami. I want to read his new one.
TeddySanFran @ 118
Wrong Sherwood.
jane hamsher @ 116
wow.
TeddySanFran @ 128
I second that e-motion. Teddy is a Golden God.
Teddy is the shizzle as we say here in the ghetizzle.
Fer rizzle.
Hey, I heard Snoop Dogg do the weather on the radio today.
He’s calling for drizzle.
One of the most innovative and individualistic SF series of the 1990s was Cowboy Bebop, directed by Shinichiro Watanabe with music by Yoko Kanno. (In fact, I’m on record somewhere saying it is the best SF series, worldwide, of that decade.)
Bebop is perhaps the zenith of anime that celebrates the individual. In fact, a startling amount of anime and manga are about the exploration of an individual, or group of misfits, finding importance and value in being special. –Not surprising for American culture, and its underlying myths, but it has always fascinated me to see the disparity between Japan’s expected social good of uniformity and its mad artistic output.
In the spare extras that came with the Bebop DVDs, director Watanabe explained that the studio allowed him to do anything he wanted with the new series, “as long as it contained spaceships”. He wound up making a countercultural masterpiece.
But when he wanted to completely innovate the mood of the series and the design of the main characters, he ran into a major snag: All his animators needed to base their work on something they had seen before. They couldn’t imagine something entirely new. Watanabe acknowledged this problem, and so the lead character (Spike Spiegel) closely resembles the title character of Lupin III– since he was the closest thing to the Spike character in personality.
So it’s not that Japan doesn’t have mad creative innovators. It’s just that, even with complete control of a studio, everyone else there has no idea what to do with them.
…I can’t believe that the creative bursts seen in cinema, anime and manga have had no effect on the rising generations. Eventually a people ask the question, why can’t we seek strange beauty more often? Here’s hoping the hikikomori find their way out of the cultural wasteland.
T–
I’ve got no time to read all the comments right now, but a few points stick out like the unhammered nail. I admit that it is not easy to live in Japan (actually, it gets harder the longer you stay, and I’ve been here for 15 years). However, the good ol’ US of A is not really a whole lot better at encouraging individualism or creativity than Japan–in fact, if you look at the high-school dropout rate in America, you will see that the stifling effects of the school system are destroying the future of the country. And if you think about the Christian schools, where the slightest deviation is severely punished, you will see the same systems of bullying, ostracism and official oppression at work in our own country.
The problem of hiki-komori, or “hermiting,” if you wish, is prominent in Japan, or at least appears to be, but it is hardly unknown in Western cultures. As a response to stress, it is for most people a temporary expedient.
As for creativity, the Japanese dominate the plastic arts–art designers, fashion designers, sculpture and industrial design. You’ll find Japanese in prominent positions in these fields all over the world. And as for manga and anime. . . What Japanese culture lacks in verbal skills is clearly made up in visual-manual abilities.
Japanese have also shown great creativity in math and physics, biosciences and semiconductor work. The microprocessor was invented by a Japanese scientist at Intel. Japanese have won several Nobel prizes in physics.
That’s not to say that everything is hunky-dory with Japanese society; there are a lot of problems. Making friends is not easy, and time demands keep people too busy to form real bonds outside of the workplace or other social group.
But social cohesiveness also means safer streets and lower crime rates (the police would have it that they are responsible, but Japanese police are nearly as much Keystone Kops as American police). The real reason is that more Japanese feel a responsibility to stay within social rules, which are sometimes restrictive.
Also, one good thing about Japan–you’ll not hear any controversy about evolution being taught in the schools.
And yes, ganbatte is an insidious reminder of one’s obligations, but in its repetitiveness, much of its force is lost in everyday use.
Of course, not a day goes by that I am not homesick, but repeated visits “home” have convinced me that “home” was a time and place that are no longer there (viz., Tonio Kroeger or You Can’t Go Home Again).
Sorry to put together such a rambling comment, but some of what you say is quite unfair to Japanese society (and I’m not known as a big apologist for Japan) and seriously overstates the goodness of American culture.
TRex @ 132
Drizzle on my hizzle will delizzle my steak on the grizzle fer rizzle. Best I take it in the heezy, use the George Feezy and serve it with a cold beezy.
I hear what you’re saying and I agree with a lot of it, but that whole “parasite woman” thing was giving me flashbacks and I had to spew it out.
But America is better than Japan! Isn’t that what TRex was saying?
Alright, I’m going to bed.
Good night everyone.
See you Sunday.
I teach in a women’s university, and I have to deal with their self-image problems a lot. On the other hand, male chauvinists in Japan can complain about unmarried women in their thirties all they want, but working women make up the bulk of clerical workers in Japan today.
Also, women have taken the matter in their own hands for the most part (no double entendres entendred) by refusing to marry or waiting until they are in their thirties. This has caused a massive change in Japanese society over the past twenty years.
Great story about your trip to Japan, TRex. I’ve wanted to go there longer than I can remember, but I’m the only member of my family who hasn’t been there. You’re spot-on about the inside a group-outside a group wall.
Working with visiting Japanese musicians is among the best of experiences I go through as an artist. Lotsa great stories. Laughs, treasured jokes, special witty comments as we work.
But the Anchorage Costcos host dozens of Japanese airfreight crew evey day, shopping while on their stopovers at Ted Stevens International Airport (GAG!). In 14 years of shopping there, seeing hundreds of flight crew walking through, the women often leaning on each other as they whisper amusing stuff, I’ve been smiled at maybe four times. And I’m fairly cute for a geezer.
Oatmeal raisin, Oatmeal chocolate cookies all good if baked on those baking stones. Check the books from America’s test kitchens. Good with cold milk or hot coffee. We 60-year-old kids love em.
The South Dakota anti-women’s choice, rapist rights crowd seems to have a view regarding women much like that apparently in Japan.
T-rex
Your posts so often make me say “Yeah, exactly”.
Man, I can’t quite put my finger on why I find that such a profoundly eloquent question, but I do.
Ed*ard Teller, you might know the answer to my question upthread at 122, would you mind taking a look at that and taking a stab at an answer?
Yamara @ 133
Cowboy Bebop is a truly awesome series. I’ve seen Lupin III and now that you point it out, I can see the similarities. However Lupin was a very superficial character, whereas Spike turned out to have a complex personality and history. My favorite character however was Radical Edward. If you are familiar with it, what do you think of Stand Alone Complex?
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @
122
I’m intrigued, but can offer no help yet….
Warner cartoons had composers create new stuff, but mostly nicked dead composers whenever they could for free or for very little.
I mostly watch C-SPAN, CNN news, the Stewart/Colbert hour on comedy central, Democracy Now, Bobby Flay on Iron Chef or Flay’s show, so probably missed the commercial so far.
Teddy San Fran–
Once on another blog I posted a comment that a “leftist” in America would undoubtedly be thought of as politically center-right in most of the rest of the world, and the only response to that was, “Yeah, that’s why the rest of the world sucks!” If there is one thing that I have learned from living overseas for a very long time, each country has its own myth of exceptionalism. In Japanese society, which can actually be quite contentious (the opposition parties are presently boycotting the Diet over a particularly revolting education bill that will force schools to teach patriotism, and physical altercations in the Diet are not unknown; also faculty meetings can get pretty hot), the myth is that of harmony (wa; 和), so much so that the word yamato, a traditional word for Japan, is written 大和、or “great harmony.” Individualism is of course the great American myth, and that it is a myth is pointed out as early as DeToqueville.
I saw this particular Visa ad on CNN last night so if you see a Visa ad with a bunch of assembly line actions taking place in a cafeteria that’s the one I’m looking for. The main melody is using a clarinet I believe and is very mechanical sounding overall.
montag @
106
CREATIVE PEOPLE MUST BE STOPPED!
(seen on a video of gogol bordello’s eugene hutz [on his t-shirt])
With further digging in the toobz I discovered the name of this song. It’s called Powerhouse by Raymond Scott. The segment used in the cartoons and the commercial is the last half of the song actually. If you’d like to hear it, here’s a link from Napster.
fahrender @ 149
Irony is a creative tool, too. :)
There’s a contest called Pornucopia at the Powerhouse tonight on Folsom for.. well, go see for yourself.
Yup, Fini, that’s the tune.
notjonathon >
I seem to remember an incident where one member was stabbed to death by some angry young “student” on the dias which was shown on the evening news here in the U.S.
Quite a attention getter it was, much like the clip during the Tet offensive where the police chief (I think he was) of Saigon killed a VC in civilian clothes with a quick gun shot to the head on camera
Ah, the “old days” of network news…
“…let`s face it, modern man is just ancient man…with better electronics…” – Mr. Jack
Helpless Dancer @ 145
Bebop is best seen subbed, though I’m thankful for Adult Swim exposing it to so many over the years. I suspect the same is true of Stand Alone Complex, though I’ve yet to find the chance to see it that way.
The expansion and exploration of the Ghost In The Shell future world is well realized, and also says a lot about the dreams the creators have for cybernetics. The Major has given over entirely to her synthetic form, but she is more a maverick than ever, and loves what she deems freedom. The reality of absolute digital conformity and its threat doesn’t escape examination, as witnessed by the tachikoma. Wikipedia: “The underlying statement here is that predictable behavior results in inherent weakness. Section 9, as an organization, needs heterogeneity and even organic weakness if it is to survive. ‘A machine where all the parts respond the same way is a brittle tool.’”
Haven’t seen a lot of the second ’season’ yet but the series as a whole is mighty good.
And yes, Bebop’s Radical Edward is an incredible character; a veritable cyclone of nonconformity. I’ll bet her willful, happy control of the police’s and Jet’s ships symbolize the director’s hijacking the studio’s more mundane intentions for a new series. –I remember Watanabe stating that there were supposed to be two kids along in the original draft of Bebop, but that they were cut down to one. He kept the boy character’s name, but made her a very ambiguous girl. Gender-bending being typical of manga, I imagine the animators easily got that idea around their heads.
TeddySanFran @ 152
Well now I know where to send my friends Rich and Scott on vacation! Bad teddy, bad (or good, depending on viewpoint.)
yoshitomo nara’s paintings are some of the best coming out of japan. his subject images are mostly malevolent children (doing things they shouldn’t, looking pissed off or sceptical). one is of a blonde girl with a nail sticking out of her head. a boy in the background has his eyes lowered but his expression isn’t repentant…..
All your friends are belong to us.
Both bad and good
TeddySanFran @ 157
My friends have San Francisco Values.
TeddySanFran @ 157
i am in ur ipod deleting ur tunez
Yes, that’s Powerhouse by Raymond Scott. Warner Bros licensed his work and Carl Stalling arranged it, there are CDs including original recordings by the Raymond Scott Quintet (they had to learn everything by ear as he couldn’t read/write music). He was largely forgotten till the end of his life but there’s been a substantial revival.
Cowboy Bebop is truly excellent, but I’m surprised no one here has mentioned Miyazaki yet. He’s responsible for the films Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away (a deserved Oscar-winner), and Howl’s Moving Castle, among others, some of the most whole-souled animation ever (and I’ve seen a lot). One should cherish one’s first viewings of these films, even on DVD it’s nearly impossible to look away because one has the certainty that whatever comes next will be unpredictable and yet completely wonderful.
“Gook” actually means “nation”. In Japanese, it is “koku” and in Mandarin “guo”.
Thank you for the interesting post.
The derogitory term for asians “gook” was taken from the terms that Koreans call themshelves which is hunggook which means the korean people and megook which is the American people. Of course my knowledge is from children teaching me to their culture and language
Yamara @ 160
i m on ur toobz watching u
I think it is much harder for ordinary people to be different or creative in Japan. But the very deficiency of difference and creativity in ordinary life creates a huge thirst for it, so the most creative intellectual and artistic types can be extremely individualistic. In fact, a certain percentage of the celebrities are basically professional eccentrics.
American pressure for conformity is more brittle. Push hard enough and you break out and are somewhere else (other than Indiana presumably). Japanese pressure is more supple and sticky. And overbearing. So much of the rebellion is quiet withdrawal, the hikikomori and the many many women who vote with their, um, well technically, I guess they are voting with their un-decorated ring fingers.
Also, Japan seems to have been very different before the Meiji Restoration (1868 or so) that started modernization. The cultural values that produced most of Japan’s great art (except for its descendant, anime) was suppressed in favor of a very neurotic samarui value system.
Forcing people to speak standard Japanese (hyojungo) has also been detrimental for the culture. In My Fair Lady, Eliza Doolittle fits right in by the end of the play/movie, but in the real world, she is always looking over her shoulder and unsure. Even her thought processes are unsure because she is split between cockney (Osaka-ben) and upper class English (standard Japanese). Her heart speaks one and her educated mind the other.
Kevin_r @ 164
Did you just out yourself as a fellow Hoosier? I couldn’t agree with this statement more. Speaking as a creative Hoosier I have got to say I sometimes feel like I live in a strange redneck American version of a Japanese society. Maybe thats why they put their auto plants here, we are similar culturally but in a tobacco chewing, corn eating, NASCAR worshipping kind of way.
I’ve seen clips of Japanese teevee game shows; the people who create them are certainly not un-creative.
Yamara @ 154
The Major also depends on her synthetic body to escape her own mortality. She fears that human weakness will betray her and her cause.
These Late Night sessions are always an interesting education…
I LOVE IT !!!
“There was a man who was so disturbed by the sight of his own shadow and was so displeased with his own footsteps that he determined to get rid of both. The method he hit upon was to run away from them.
So he got up and ran. But every time he put his foot down there was another step, while his shadow kept up with him without the slightest difficulty.
He attributed his failure to the fact that he was not running fast enough. So he ran faster and faster, without stopping, until he finally dropped dead.
He failed to realize that if he merely stepped into the shade his shadow would vanish, and if he sat down and stayed still, there would be no footsteps.”
[xxxi]
from :
The Way of Chuang Tzu
by Thomas Merton
Perhaps it isn’t the difference between American and Japanese culture that’s at issue; perhaps the difference is instead between multiculture and monoculture. (vz Indiana).
Well I for one would like to give thanks this Thanksgiving that for 24 hours my email address had not received ONE SINGLE SPAM. Normally it’s anywhere from 30 to 100 a day. Today, nada, zip, nuttin. It’s kind of weird, in a good way.
Maybe if spam was treated as an export, the US wouldn’t have such a huge trade deficit.
Not sure how to value something people normally pay to be free of, though.
Right now this Aussie girl wants to ring up random US red-state phone numbers and scream “admit it, it’s YOU and your POS pwned PC!! The Nigerians have nothing to do with it!!!!”.
But I won’t.
In Indiana we have our own version of multiculturalism. You can be of any national origin you like, you can worship different God concepts, you can enjoy different kinds of food, so long as you adhere to the same sort of conservative social constructs as everyone else here. It really is Japanese in this sense here, the striving for mediocrity and conformity. Exceptionalism is not supported here, you must not go outside the community parameters of what is acceptable behavior or thought, consensus is worshipped.
TeddySanFran >
During my brief Japanese experience I was staying with a family and watching some evening television. They were watching a show that was on 3-4 times a year (as I remember it) that was all about “normal” folks coming on the show & acting out a short piece with simple props & almost no scenery, just their actions. I was very surprised how creative the pieces were done. Just incredible creativity of expression.
I`ll never forget that.
“There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph. All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth.” – Richard Avedon
I think the Japanese withdrawal (hikikomori) is akin to living in your parent’s basement here. Except here the apparent or overwhelming number one reason is because they can get away with it, although I think fear plays a part.
American parents allow their children to withdraw and support it via their own passivity and financial maintenance.
downunder girl >
I run some mail servers (not my “job” but for a group I belong to) & most of the spam we see is from East Asia or Russia. The rhythm/timing of it is also indicative of the source (mostly during daytime in those areas).
“We are all individual molecules of a great social gas.” – Huxley
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 171
There is one thing I always need ask when I hear of similar situations. Then why do you live there?
This is not meant to be inciteful in anyway, but rather looking for insight as to why people put up with a distasteful status quo by choosing to stay.
Speaking of a great social gas, Hastert is whining about going back to Congress as just another Member without the perks of being in leadership. I look forward to his impending retirement.
That may well be. But it’s an odd coincidence. Maybe you get the deliberate spams by intentional spammers, and I just get the ones relayed by pwned PCs.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! >
Withdrawl is a real bitch…
Breaks my heart…NOT !
“If you don’t deal with reality, reality will deal with you” – C.J. Campbell
daCascadian @ 175
So true. Most spam and viruses come from Asia. It’s a well-noted fact.
I have conjectured that it might be a by-product of lax copyright laws which allows creators of bootlegs to easily infect computers on a massive scale.
SharonW >
Much of it is organized criminal activity; crackers distribute botcode to machines they crack (mostly Windows based) & then lease/rent them out as sending devices to groups that are running scams of one kind or another etc.
Well organized and very profitable I understand.
“History is indeed little more than the register of the crimes, follies and misfortunes of mankind.” – Edward Gibbon
SharonW @ 176
A valid question and one I always put to folks around here bitching about how lame Indiana is and who do nothing to contribute to spicing the place up. I will do you the honor of supplying my personal answer since you asked respectfully.
For me, it’s been a poverty and complex set of medical issues problem. When my father died when I was 12 my family never recovered financially from losing the primary breadwinner. My mother and I faced down some pretty crushing financial pressures and just when I was working my way out of poverty as a young man I got hit with the beginning of a long history now of illnesses and conditions that have kept me tied down here.
Having said all that, I feel lucky to have been caught here because of the first rate medical community that exists in Indianapolis that I have had access to. IU Hospital staffs its doctors and medical students at the county hospital here called Wishard where all the indigent patients are sent, so we actually have a great medical system in Indianapolis for poor patients like myself. Without these IU doctors I am certain I would have died 3 or 4 times since I was 18 (I am now 35.)
I now have reached a point of where I am able to manage my conditions better and being on Disability and having Medicare coverage allows me to go anywhere I would like. I am seeking to move to a nicer climate with more opportunity for a person with my skill set in the creative arts but I first have to raise the money to get out of here.
My plan is to move in early 2008 if I can raise the funds for a move to an as yet to be identified locale. I’ve considered SoCal, NYC, Austin, TX and Seattle. I am however open to suggestions of other creative folks gathering points.
daCascadian @ 181
Indeed! I work for a biotech company that is involved with Chinese herbal medicines. We have many Asians working here and the battle against spam, spyware and other crap is continuous.
I once had to clean a laptop that was so crammed with crap it could barely run. There was actually a very clever little program in it that would stop a spy-ware removal by moving the cursor and clicking another program into which it would hide in.
The first couple of times I saw this happen I thought I had accidentally touched the mousepad. The third time was the charm when I had been doing nothing with the laptop while it was cleaning and just happened to turn back to it to see the cursor float across the screen and hit the start button.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! >
If lots of cloudy/rainy winter weather would affect your mental state Seattle might not be a place to consider; it is a great place tho…
(of course, I`m biased…)
“There is nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.” – Ansel Adams
Actually, Japan has recently become a little more open. A 30 year old woman (even some men) who isn`t married is now called a makeinu.
The most polite traslation is an underdog. The harshist is a Loser Dog.
Ok, it`s just a hair better than parisite…
As for creativity, oddly enough their Horror movies here are bizarre and usually wonderful. Their dramas absolutly suck. And don`t get me started on their `comedies`. I wonder why it`s the Horror movies where Japan`s creativity is going.
daCascadian @ 183
I actually enjoy damp rainy climates for some reason. Must be the genetic engrams of my Celtic bloodline. Seattle attracts me due to all the Internet companies in the area, as does the Bay Area, but there is no way in hell I can afford Bay Area real estate and cost of living. For this reason Seattle leapfrogged ahead of NoCal.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 181
Wow! Well that explains that. I’m so sorry to hear of your illness, however. And I do hope you’re able to get out. Just offering my own opinion, I would suggest leaving NYC out of your considerations.
Not that there isn’t a plethora of diversity, creativity and break-out-of the box in NYC, but it can be a pretty cold place, too.
Okay, here on the east coast, it has officially become stupid-o’clock in the morning. I sorely need to get to bed. Nightie night all.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! >
Sounds like it might be a good choice for you then
There is a lot going on in the area, including a very strong biotech/medical sector and of course aerospace (Boeing etc)
Lots of outdoor activity easy to get to, Cascade mountains etc
“Fire is the test of gold; adversity, of strong men.” — Seneca
Well NYC has character and lots of it going for it in my book. Cold? Sure, NYC is famous for its cold callousness. But when you’ve experienced lifelessness in Indianapolis like I have most of my life, cold is an improvement indicating a minimal temperature to a live body. I will take a cold, embittered New Yorker over a hipper than thou, mediocre, “Whatever”-spouting, mouth breathing Hoosier any day of the week.
With the cold New Yorker there is a quickly established method of dealing with that person. In Indy it can take you years to figure out your best friend is indifferent and self centered and could care less what happens to you because of this whole Hoosier Hospitality concept that is a cover for our lack of real charm or character.
I must hit the sack folks, gnight!
One word: biryani. It’s just not right without raisins.
Also, concerning the Japanese/Korean issue: Think of it as the Asian equivalent of the Scots-Irish divide… the two look identical to outsiders, but if you say that out loud, both sides will stop sniping at each other long enough to attack you in concert . Of course, that makes China the analog to England.
lol yeah the scotch/irish thing…only way to make us stop fighting with out harm to an outsider is give us a bottle of whiskey…seems to help heal the rift…that explains the ‘mixed’ marriages!
I must say that I had the same experience.
My high school sweetheart was Japanese (half, anyway) and her Japanese father was fantastic. A fine man. So with all that I was crazy about Japan and the Japanese.
So natually, when I volunteered for the Army my request was to be sent to Japan. Nope, no-one was going anywhere other than Vietnam in the 60’s and that was that!
But when it was time to take “R & R” ….. well you know I made a bee-line for Japan! The Japenese didn’t have all the talking gadgets back then but it certainly was electronic! All doors (including the taxis!!!) opened automatically! But it was like you said TRex the people wouldn’t give me the time of the day.
I went back in 1980 and it was even worse. What snobbish bastards they are. And all that crap about honour! I’ve befriended many Japanese, men, women and families and given them a helping hand when they didn’t know right from left travelling in Europe. They all swore they’d show their gratitude by writing me note of thanks when they got back home. Yeah, sure! Not one of them ever did.
Oh, TRex. I know you were trying to do a thankful-for-western-stuff post for the holiday. It just got a little too black vs white pour moi. The unfortunate thing is that people may read your post and think “Yeah, I guess that is what Japan is like, huh?” Young people who’ve never been outside the US, let alone to Asia.
One can’t understand a foreign culture with any depth
unless one can think in the language of that culture. Period.
I’ve been in Japan for 17 years. I guess I’m lucky,
as I’ve really never had any regrets.
Notjonathan, for me it’s just gotten easier and easier.
I wish it were the same for you. Your comments, though, are completely spot on. Yes indeed, there’s no place like home, but home never really existed anyway.
There is plenty I’d like to talk about, but I’m late to the party,
so I doubt many people will be reading ….
“Everything in Japan talks to you except the people.”
Yes this is true. Loquaciousness is not considered a virtue.
Westerners abhor silence in a conversation.
The Japanese don’t. That’s just the way it is.
“GANBATTE, KUDASAI!!” (”Work hard today!”)…”
The phrase has an enormous range of meanings. But more to the point:
What the fuck is wrong with working hard? More people should try it.
“This is why Japan has no significant women’s movement.”
There is a nascent one; it doesn’t get press. Weird shit does.
You’d need to be able to read Japanese.
“the rugged individual. Here in the west, we cherish that quality. “
One could just as easily say that there is perhaps TOO MUCH individuality in the West. I know, it only seems to manifest as something like: “Everyone else already has a jillion tatoos, so to be different, I’ll get one ON my tongue. But really, in the West, isn’t just an expression of the fact that there is way too much goddamn competition and not nearly enough cooperation?
“I wanted to say, “Well, then maybe you guys shouldn’t kill all your weirdos…”
Well, they aren’t actually killed anymore, but Japan is still affected by the shogunate: the Edo period saw what was probably one of the greatest eugenics experiments in human history: almost 300 years of disposing of those who expressed dissent. But the Edo period also produced kabuki, sa-do, and an aesthetic sense that is being translated into art and technology even now, in the 21st century….
“They have a ridiculously high suicide rate. 30,000 people in 2005.”
This is because Shinto beliefs in revengeful souls
were never quite snuffed out by Buddhism.
Well, Mahayana — yes there is a difference,
but that’s a whole nother dialogue …
But more important: Japan was never Christianized,
And THAT is a FUCKING. VERY. GOOD. THING.
“You want to see a Japanese person freak out? Tell them that scientists have mapped their genome and that they are actually descendants of Korean settlers of the Japanese islands.”
This is pretty much a given among most young people now.
When were you here? And for how long?
Just my two yen, but I had to call you on some of that stuff, TRex m’dear.
I’m sure there’s more I wanted to point out, but it’s getting late here,
and I do have my usual backlog of textile photos to edit …
“… Skosh is first recorded in 1951. It remained a chiefly military term through the 1950s and ’60s, and spread into more mainstream usage in the ’60s and ’70s….”
Wow! Thanks for that info.
My family uses the term. I’d always thought it came from Ma’s Pennsylvania Dutch background!
My dad was career-military (class of ‘50 West Point grad, Korea, etc) but don’t think I ever heard him use it. (Snafu & FUBAR & POOP Sheet, yeah…)
End Zone @ 192
Since you’re basing your opinion of an entire culture
on your highschool sweetheart’s dad,
a few weeks of military R and R,
and a few individuals you’ve met in the meantime,
I guess we can consider ourselves lucky here, huh?
I mean, you won’t be back anytime soon, right?
medaka @ 195
That depends. If you’ll be leaving the country soon I might think it’ll be worth it to give the country another chance. But I wonder …. are you the guy who told me, “Yankee Go Home!” when I (as a civilian) asked him how to get to Shinjuku Station?
BTW, I see that you’re basing your conviction “of an entire culture” on my use of the word “they”. Perhaps your “opinion base” is less righteous than mine?
medaka (#193):
i want to endorse what you have said about people from one culture trying to, or thinking they understand another culture. i lived in russia for seven years and i found it fascinating and, for the most part very enjoyable. some of my colleagues teased me about “going native”. but my work was exclusively with the expatriate community and i realized that i had only begun to understand the culture. i felt that i would never, truly, be at home there. i wasn’t prepared to immerse myself 24 hours a day in russian life. i studied the language and spoke it a bit but only in a very shallow way. had i been twenty years younger when i was there i probably would have stayed. there would have been enough of my life remaining to really make a go of it.
i think few cultures are more fundamentally more disparate than the Japanese and American cultures. it is very difficult for one of us to learn the language of the other, written or spoken. the social behaviors and values are very different. the peoples of the two cultures tend to see each other through a prism of cliches. our impulses and biases often confuse and trick us with regards to the other. the incredible ignorance of culture and lack of cultural understanding is one of the biggest failings of our politicians. one only need look at the morning papers to see that.
Go wank yourself dude. You spent a total of three and a half weeks here(yeah,here) and you’re an expert. Expert enough to slag everyone and everything in the country. I’ve lived here for 8 years with my wife and her family. I love them all dearly and I’ve made some good friends. Your comments are highly offensive to me and them. Her father would give you the fucking shirt off of his back. There are good people everywhere in every culture. It’s your kind of generalizing, compartimentalizing and judging that leads to all our(our being the people of planet Earth) problems. To be perfectly honest I am shocked to find this posted here at this sight. Shocked to find such an off the scale level of ignorance. Fuck off mate.
Oh, did I mention, fuck off mate, really, go fuck yourself
End Zone @ 196
No, but maybe it should have been me!
(My apologies — I was being WAY facetious.
I’d be the first person to give a lost foreigner directions,
having been in the same situation in many countries …)
Thing is, you asked that person in English, right? And he probably didn’t speak English, definitely didn’t want to speak English, certainly couldn’t tell you any of that in English. He most likely failed English in high school. Plus he was probably a rude bastard to begin with — maybe his girlfriend dropped him for a German, or he had the Japanese version of a wingnut upbringing … Again, just an individual.
No less righteous, just based more on experience here.
Do come back, whether I’m here or not. Actually, if you ever do come back, please contact me beforehand, and I will show you as much cool stuff as I possibly can. And that’s a promise, for real. It’s something I like doing, and have gotten pretty good at (pats self on back) over the years …
fortnight @ 198
And yet you say …….
fortnight @ 198
I can honestly say that I’m far more shocked than you are. And who said anything about 3 and a half weeks anyway, Bazza Boy??????
fortnight @ 198
I agree with what you say, but NOT AT ALL with the way you say it, doll.
Less violent exclamation. More dialogue. Good for humans.
End Zone @ 200
I thought he was talking to TRex. But whether it was to TRex or to you, End Zone, it was obiviously a pretty chav reaction …
Sorry, but I was angered. His post is out of line. He needs to be called on it. It’s wrong, and all the ignorant little toadies who are replying with so many “atta boys” need to be told as well. I really am shocked to find this here. I’m really struggling to get my mind around why this Trex character felt the need to slag another culture in order to feel “thankful” for his own. And the sychophantic fawning that has followed. Disgusting. I am majorly dissappointed.
medaka @ 199
That’s very gracious of you and I’d like that but alas, I’d be impressed by your civilized manner, not the Japanese.
Ps. I did ask him in Japanese although I have no confirmation that his girlfriend wasn’t absconded by a German tourist, it’s true.
My, my, my, but we’re cranky this morning. Go get a cup of coffee and a sweet roll, why not?
Today’s NYT columnists, from behind the firewall:
http://select.nytimes.com/2006…..amp;emc=th
Thomas Edsall, “The Struggle Within.”
http://select.nytimes.com/2006…..amp;emc=th
Maureen Dowd, “No One to Lose To.”
End Zone @ 204
The Japanese are WAY more civilized than I could ever be, but thanks for the complement! And do remember that, if you’re ever here in central Japan, I’ll show you and yours the ins and outs — and I promise that everyone will be more civil than you can possibly imagine!
fortnight @ 203
I’d like to know what the Japanese would say about your use of the “F” word and your aggressive, intimidating approach to “discussion”.
Should I suppose that you feel you “fit in” well in Japan and that you admire their mode of debate? Yes? And you feel that you’ve defended them in a noble manner, worthy of an admirer of Japanese culture?
My, my, my, but we’re cranky this morning. Go get a cup of coffee and a sweet roll, why not?
That’s your reply to blatant and obvious racism that is laced through this post and the following comments? Honestly, you people are thoroughly disgusting. It is mind bending that most of you don’t even realize how offensive the comments are. Mind bending. And then when someone mentions it you just write them off as some sort of psycho. Well, now I understand why we were able to round them up and put them in camps in the 1940’s.
medaka @ 206
You’re a peach. :)
I’m not Japanese, I’m not trying to “fit in” anywhere, and I’m not defending a culture. I’m angered because people, even here, are so quick and willing to a wide brush and sweep it over a group of people and make broad judgment about it. And if you don’t think people get angry in Japan then you are an idiot. Everyone in Japan is a person, just like everyone in America, everyone in Spain, Russia, Angola, wherever. We are more alike than we are different, by far. Posting up some drivel about how you are thankful to be in “your culture” over another only serves to seperate us even further. My response is not from one culture to another, not in defense of one over another. My response, and my anger is directed and an individual. That fact that you can’t understand that only saddens me even more.
fortnight @ 203
Yeah, me too. TRex plopped a serious lame-o tonight. He had a bad experience here, which he unfortunately chose to use as a base for some Western Civilization bouquets (re: that Gandhi “would be a good idea” quote).
Remember, fortnight, always pour out your snarky meanness into lovely crystal wineglasses. That way, it will at least SEEM like it’s supposed to taste good, at least to the people you’re serving it to …
always recommended:
http://www.figarospeech.com/
End Zone @ 209
Hah! Working on it, but WAY not there yet!
I’m still a crabby bastard at heart …
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 177
Speaking of perks, wanna bet that Pelosi finds a whole bunch of Baby Ruth candy wrappers stuffed down in back seat cushions of the House Leader’s limo? :)
fortnight @ 210
You are right. This, my dear fortnight, is the essential explanation of why TRex’s post tonight was so goddamn lame. NAIL ON HEAD, INDEED …
Now I really need to spend time with my indigos. Christy, doll, please close this thread off with a nice morning post soon? But also, do please remind TRex to read the comments here, nkay?? We certainly don’t want him race-baiting any more in the future !!
If the inhabitants of the overseas student housing in the next street from us are any guide, there are plenty of non-conformists in Japan, or rather who are Japanese. Some of them come out to Australia to work on their English and do some Australian post-secondary courses.
I don’t want to bag TRex because I see where he’s coming from even though I disagree with his take on the matter. Anyway, I’m no expert on Japanese culture.
But I’m reminded of a little book I was given recently called “These Strange German Ways”. The last chapter tells the story of the first and only East German teenagers to do student exchanges to the US. (Reunification made them also the last.) I think everyone expected the poor little refugees from Communism to be more breathless and amazed at the wonderful US of A. But the criticisms about conformity and jingoism in smalltown America that they came back with were eeriely similar to TRex’s Nippon Projection.
Now it’s really bed time in what is roughly the same timezone as Tokyo.
Mornin’ all!
Everything’s for sale: National Parks Service considers opening parks to ‘bioprospecting’
I just want to thank Montag and notjonathan for turning the tide on this blatant post by TRex. You can shade it and call it “culturalist” or “essentialist” if we wanted to be academic about it, or you could say that it “overgeneralizes” or blame his blithe acceptance of the media’s image of Japan. Or you can go fortnight’s route, and frankly I can’t blame him at all after what TRex said about his family.
Think about how it would read if each time Trex said: “Japanese people love talking toilets” you translated it into “American people love shooting deer” and went on about American machismo instead of Japanese groupthink. What would you have? A poorly informed jingoistic screed that takes sociological observations about culture and misreads them as claims about individuals.
I’m just glad I’m not American, because I don’t like having to dismember animal carcasses with my teeth each hunting season!
MarkC @ 218
Yes. What you said, MarkC.
Super nutshell. Many thanks.
Maybe TRex will actually apologize?
Just a thought …
TRex @ 48
Skoshi, Japanese (probably slang) for small amount.
Morning gang. Hot coffee about to be poured, and a new thread is ready for you all upstairs. :)
Way late to the discussion, but just wanted to share a related observation I made some years ago when first exploring the USA.
Originally from Detroit, spent some time in Atlanta, A year in Kansas City and many visits to the coasts.
Everywhere I went, I found people generalizing about racism in other parts.
Fact of the matter is, racism is everywhere, it just smells different.
Not better, just different.
Look I’m really sorry you didn’t like Japan, but really homesickness is not a validation of your own culture.
And homesickness is all your posting is describing.
It sounds like your 3 weeks in Japan were the first time you’d left your own home nation, and if that were the case then Japan would be a real challenge.
Apart from the cultural differences (food, manners etc) hardly anyone outside of Tokyo speaks English and *none* of the signs are – they don’t even use western characters so you have very little hope of recognizing anything.
That’s before you get to things like the incipient racism that will lead you to situations where you’re surrounded by colored people who (in some cases) treat you as badly as a black can get treated in the good ‘ol USA.
Don’t worry – you get over that sort of stuff pretty quickly.
The thing is this:- it’s a foriegn country, they do things differently there (sometimes better, sometimes worse, but always different).
And you, as a first time traveller, are all alone in a situation where everything you know is wrong. Feeling upset about this is called “homesickness”. First it starts with uncertainty, stress and fear and then it descends into sarcasm and bitterness. That lasts about a year until you get over it.
After that you realise it’s all just difference and start to enjoy it.
From experience I know that the first time you move overseas can be very hard. I did it moving to England, and that was easy – I understood all the signs and mostly understood the language (that’s supposed to be a joke). But I still went through that first bad year. Afterwards was fine.
And a couple of years ago I moved to Japan and found the transition not nearly as bad. I still can’t speak Japanese, but I had a wonderful time.
Try it again.
My parents lived for awhile in Japan.
They loved it and I loved spending time with them there.
It’s a fascinating country where honor means quite a lot. I like that.
It’s an ancient civilization and it’s amazing to experience the juxtaposition of the old and the very new and innovative. We could learn alot from them, actually.
We are a very young and sometimes brash country. :>)
TRex @
25
Uh–Adults do it here, too. In fact, they’re the ones most likely to set in motion a nasty destruction bomb. I’ll give you a f’rinstance:
My son was being bullied at his new school. The teachers pretended not to notice. He finally had enough and tore into the bully. In the heat of the argument, he said that he was gonna kill the guy.
The school suspended him as a “terrorist threat.” While he was out, one of his friends called and said the TEACHERS were speculating that my son had threatened to bomb the school (he hadn’t), murder people–you name it. Of course, when confronted, they swore they hadn’t said such things in front of other students. But a Mom knows certain things about people when she’s toe-to-toe with them. They were lying. I told them they were, and I knew they were. They got defensive then, and said that maybe the problem was that my son hadn’t TOLD them he was being bullied. I asked them if they had eyes, ears, or, better yet, hearts. People know who’s being bullied at a school. It’s patently obvious. They stammered and hemmed and hawed then. I kept repeating that they needed to understand that a bullied child might be afraid to tell a teacher, for fear that something worse will happen to him. They had to put themselves in his shoes and do their motherfucking jobs. At last they apologized for not paying more attention, but they hoped the kiddo would trust them now, would come to them if he had a problem, they really did want to know if such things were going on blah blah blah. They were lying. Again.
That afternoon, after dealing with those morons all day (and at the “juvie” school he would have to attend for a week as punishment), my son and I went home. I hadn’t been there fifteen minutes when someone knocked on my door. It was the city COPS. Someone had planted a fake bomb near my son’s locker. The school had named my son FIRST as a suspect. Even though he had been with me the entire time he was at the school. When the cops came in the house, my son had his Hot Wheels out and was playing with them on the floor. That’s how young and childlike he was. The cops were mortified, and spent more time calming him and me than they did questioning us. My son was weeping, and telling me he couldn’t go back to that place, ever again. I couldn’t blame him.
I was back at the school the next morning, without my son (left him with his stepdad). I fucking hit the roof with those assholes. The thing that made me the angriest was their exhortations for my son to trust them, then stabbing him in the back, even before the day was out! And I told them he could not come back to that school, ever again, if they would accuse him first if anything went wrong there. Too many kids constantly harassed that way eventually believe they might as well do something to get in trouble, since they’re going to be blamed for it, anyway. And they never stop being in trouble after it. I wasn’t about to let that happen to my kid.
THAT’S how bullying by adults against children works in America. That’s what makes criminals out of kids who would have been just fine if they weren’t pounded into the dirt everytime they turned around.
I yanked my kid out of school and he never returned. He’s now a normal person (angsty and a bit self-centered, but that’s normal for 19).
So it’s ridiculous to say that the Japanese are worse to kids. They’re not. They’re probably about the same. At least there, you don’t have to deal with so many crazed religious fanatic parents, who are absolutely horrific to kids here, even ones who aren’t theirs! Don’t even get me started on the horrors a Southern Baptist from East Texas can inflict on a young mind. Especially a female’s young mind. [shudder]
I’ve found that there is great diversity, some you’d think were still fighting a war for the Emperor others are even more creative than your typical westerner (who make all those great Sony electronics, comic books, and cars) and really very nice in many ways. I’m not too sure about the culture either, its got to be diverse, I’ve known Japanese who hated the idea of having to return from the US.
For the record, I haven’t been to Japan, and the one person I knew who travelled there for pleasure hated it (my mother). But, knowing what I do about the country now, and after dealing with Japanese people living in the States, I know exactly what her problem was: My mother expected everyone to be as talkative and BFF on short acquaintance as she is. She does not understand a culture that very, very jealously guards personal space. You do not come on so strong and presume so much intimacy, so quickly, as she does. You don’t talk so damned loudly (and the maternal unit does have a loud voice), nor do you ask overly personal questions of people. It’s being friendly here, but I’m sure the Japanese consider all of that extremely rude. Hell, I consider it rude, and I’m American!
T-Rex
You really should have stayed more than 3 weeks. I totally understand and agree with much of what you say about Japan- I lived there 3 years, however there is a lot you missed.
After being in Japan for 2 months or so I had diner with a group of people including an American man who had written a couple of books on Japan and lived there 20 some years. I made some generalization about Japan and he said that in his 20 years of living there every time he thought he had figured the place out something would surprise him.
I think you are being a bit unfair to the Japanese and way too judgemental. You can not go to a new place and “understand” it after being there less than a month- and not speaking the language. Isn’t that we are always trying to tell conservatives? One can not judge everything through our own culture.