Did I ever mention to you guys that I went to Japan? It was the summer of 2001 and I had been studying Japanese for a year. My professor, Morisensei, convinced me that the only way to learn the language was to enroll in a two-month summer program in a school on the northernmost island in a town called Hakodate.
"Great!" I thought, "I've always liked to go to other countries and I've been fascinated with Japanese culture since I was a little kid. It'll be awsome!"
It wasn't awesome. It wasn't awesome at all. I came back after three and a half weeks. In fact, it was one of the most miserable experiences of my life. Ye gods, what a hell-hole.
Everything in Japan talks to you except the people. The sreetcar talks, the stove talks, the refigerator talks. Remember those talking cars in the 80's? "Lights are on!", "Key is in the ignition!" Remember how much you hated that? Japanese people didn't hate it at all. They invented that shit and they looooove it.
Even the toilet talks.
Of course, I couldn't understand a goddamn word, so what did I care? Except that it was a constant reminder that I had no fucking idea what was going on at any given time.
I did understand some things, but it was generally enough to make me think I didn't want to know any more. For instance, many times when something (some lamp-post or bicycle rack or disembodied Train Voice) tells you a piece of information, they tag on a little aphorism, "GANBATTE, KUDASAI!!" ("Work hard today!") or "Good girls don't smoke!" or the one that sent a chill up my spine every time I heard it, "The nail that sticks out GETS HAMMERED IN!" Have a nice day!
A quote from this essay sums up what that means, exactly:
Japan is unthinkable without groups. Perhaps they developed from the co-operative labour needed in the scattered villages of a rice-growing culture. To this day the threat of Mura Hachibu ('rejection from the village' or ostracism) by family, university alumnus league, company or even golf club would be enough to bring the most determined social deviant to heel. It can sometimes seem as if the only escape from the demands of the group lies in madness.
The group is everything there. There is no room for the maverick rebel, the determined non-conformist, the rugged individual. Here in the west, we cherish that quality. To us, the individual is sacred. To them? Anathema. There's just no space for that in their society. And the social sanctioning is fierce and swift.
This is why Japan has no significant women's movement. In fact, the word for an unmarried woman over 30 in Japanese who keeps her money and doesn't have kids? "Parasite" woman. Not because she counts on anyone for a living or a meal ticket, but because she's not using her womb for the good of the nation, not contributing to the economy by buying refrigerators or diapers or a mini-van.
This story, which I heard on "All Things Considered" today as I was driving back from my mom's place in South Georgia brought it all crashing back.
To wit:
All Things Considered, November 24, 2006 · Many young people in Japan have become hermits -- retreating into worlds that consist of little more than their rooms. And that's difficult for families. Michele Norris talks with Michael Zielenziger, author of Shutting Out the Sun: How Japan Created Its Own Lost Generation.
Zielenziger profiles a caste of Japanese youth called hikikomori, mostly young men who lock themselves away in their bedrooms, fearful of society's expectations. He also talks about Japan's aging working class and the tendency of young women to shun motherhood.
It's a riveting (though disturbing) story and I would love to read the book (I've added it to my Amazon Wish List.)(HINT!!), but the thing it got me thinking today is how grateful I am to live in this culture, this paradigm that rewards individuality and makes room for the oddball. We think the US can be a stifling, conformist culture, but in the west, we're lucky in ways that we don't even begin to understand. And I'm not just talking about America here. We didn't invent that, contrary to what Pox News might insist. Let's not forget Beethoven, Michelangelo, Copernicus, or any of those guys. We come from a few thousand years of respect for the iconoclast.
I was playing my friend Daiji some of my old music one day and he said, "You are very, very creative, Ferguson-san!"
I shrugged it off like I do most compliments, "Thank you," I said, "That and three bucks will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks." Or something to that effect.
Daiji shook his head, "Japanese people, we are not creative. We can copy, but we don't create."
"Don't be silly!" I said, "What about Sei Shonagon? Or Murasaki's The Tale of Genji?"
"That was a thousand years ago," he said, "It's not like that now."
I wanted to say, "Well, then maybe you guys shouldn't kill all your weirdos. That's who thinks creatively, the freaks who aren't like everybody else." But I was too polite to ever say such a thing, especially to someone as open and kind as Daijisan.
But this Thanksgiving weekend, that's what I am really, really thankful for, that I live in a society that equates uniqueness with greatness rather than considering it a moral failing. I thank god that I was raised in a family who taught me to be true to myself, to fight for what I believe in, and to strive to be the best person I can be. (Thanks Mom and Dad!! I'm sorry I was such a pain in the ass!)
What about you guys?
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TRex !!
Leftovers!
TeddySanFran @
1
*smooch*
Thanks for my gift, T.
You da man.
TRex-san ichiban desu!
EvilDrPuma @ 4
Arigato gozaimasu.
Thanks for sharing that, TRex.
Some of what you describe is more widespread, not limited to Japan alone. The hammered nail, for instance, is a parable that a Chinese friend from Hong Kong once used to describe a social concern of Chinese and Asian cultures. Great book I’d recommend for understanding Asian perspective is The Geography of Thought : How Asians and Westerners Think Differently…and Why. The text takes a great stab at explaining this, but there is still a shortfall since the disparity between Western and Asian consciousness is articulated by a Westerner. (I’d love to see a corresponding text written by an Asian.) In short, Asians tend to see the entire picture all at once, where Westerners see the specific; we are taught from birth to differentiate and individualize, where Asians are nurtured to seek harmony across the whole. It’s this difference that makes American management style desirable in the east as it is much more competitive, and yet we can see the corruption that can come from this kind of dog-eat-dog work style.
In some ways, thinking Asian is more like that of Western women, and thinking Western is more like thinking as a man. Or at least as a woman who’s worked most of her life in male-dominated areas, that’s what it looks like to me. Except for the society-owned co-oped uterus thing, of course. Yeesh.
[edit: or maybe I see this differently since I’m of mixed heritage, Polynesian-Asian and Caucasian…?]
TRex @ 5
Do itashimashite.
I don’t honestly blame you–individually, most of the Japanese folks I’ve met are a lot of fun. But I don’t think I’d enjoy the country all that much. China at least has a place for the individualist…it’s called Taoism.
Twisted Martini
EPU’d from the previous thread:
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 118
Subaru!
I also think the airline seats would be a wee bit constricted for a 60 ft. therapod.
I feel exactly the same way about America that you do about Japan. And I’m an ordinary-looking white native-born upper-class American: I can’t imagine what it’s like for people who look as well as act weird here. The cult of physical beauty, the regimented purchasing decisions, the endless tribal affiliations… the only good thing I can say about America is that it’s much less dreadful than any of the several other countries I’ve lived in.
Seriously, that thing about celebrating the individual? In theory only. Actual individuation is cause for shunning here. Try to say you don’t care about the local football team, or that you don’t really care who wins American Idol, or that you think Christianity is a bunch of silly superstitions. Hell, try something as “different” as eating lunch by yourself instead of discussing what was on Heroes last night with your coworkers. Bleah.
Thanks Fini. Just curious, what are some good Indy blogs?
I gotta admit that kernel corn on a pizza at a Tokyo Pizza Hut was quite pleasing to the eye, but not so tasty that I’d order it that way here at home.
Jane Hamsher @ 10
Not a problem if it is Japan Air. They’re used to megamonsters.
Dana @
9
Bless you.
I bet YOU had good food on Thanksgiving, Dana. Spill it. What did you eat?
Mad Dogs @ 14
We need to find Toshiro Mifune! And tell him to bring his binoculars!
Yes,
Be very thankful for your mom and dad. My dad passed away when I was fairly young and we disagreed quite a bit. I was 40 years old when I finally realized how much he understood about the real world. It pains me to think that we would see eye to eye on so many things if he were still around. Happy Thanksgiving dad.
Regards to all.
Jane Hamsher @
10
I sat next to Godzilla. Good-looooooking, oooh! You don’t know! But damn, that lizard had some bad breath. Harsh.
felagund — oh man, do you have that down. Especially kids in schools here in the U.S.; they are merciless on one another, pummeling anyone who is not the norm. I swear I spend an hour every day talking with my third-grader about how okay he is after all the crap he’s been through all day.
Mad Dogs — funny, that’s how I feel about pineapple on pizza. Interesting concept, but absolutely unacceptable, a perversion of a lovely food product that cannot be entertained.
Jane, has *ilson been in contact with you lately? Now that Twisted drew my attention to the issue I have not seen him around much either here on FDL or in other local blog threads.
Mad Dogs @ 14
Pilot: Uh, folks, we’re experiencing some moderate Godzilla-related turbulence at this time, so I’m going to go ahead and ask you to put your seatbelts back on. When we get to 35 thousand feet, he usually does let go, so from there on out, all we have to worry about is Mothra, and, uh, we do have reports he’s tied up with Gamera and Rodan at the present time. Thank you very much.
–”The Simpsons”
Well, I have to say I’m very glad my family is here. We have a heavy dose of “weird” in our DNA back through five generations. If we lived in Japan apparently you’d be hearing “wham” often.
Dana @ 9
Wakarimasen.
Kon ban wa.
Rayne @ 19
Agreed. A proper pizza is a cheese- and sauce-enhanced, fire-and-forget flatbread delivery system for a dead pig. (Beef is acceptable if required by religious proscription.)
I was bullied in school, too, but while you get sort of hazed here, you get destroyed there. Crushed. It’s not just the kids that make fun of the weird kid. It’s the adults, too.
They have a ridiculously high suicide rate. 30,000 people in 2005.
There’s a current Japanese anime series about a hikikomori. The main character is hounded by a woman who is determined to turn him onto a proper “salaryman”.
Welcome to the NHK - NHK ni Yokoso
NHK (Nihon Hikikomori Kyokai), or Japan Social Withdrawal Association
“Since Sato Tetsuhiro, a 22-year-old man, dropped out from the university, he hasn’t gone out anywhere except convenience stores, and he has slept 16 hours a day. He has been spending such lazy days for 3 years.”
It’s available as a fansub (unlicenced anime) from animesuki.com
Pineapple and Ham. It’s a california thing.
Twisted Martini @ 12
Well, to be honest with you, I am reluctant to refer you to any local blogs in Indy. The local political scene here is very petty and extremely insider driven. I tend to ignore most of them because this city is kinda reversed from the situation nationally.
Here in Indy the corrupt insiders I am fighting are all local conservative Democrats from the DLC wing. The local GOP is in total disarray, but Indy does not have many progressive folks here for me to work with. I’m currently in discussions with local Green Party folks about working with me to take over the Marion County Democrats from the DLC types.
Great post, dear, it’s exactly the thing I needed before The Orange Kommander’s Favorite TeeVee starts at 9: BattGal!
American Culture has given me a heritage not of iconoclasm, but primogeniture. Descended from a long line of second sons of second sons, all sent to explore the frontier while their older brother got the goods, I find Manifest Destiny to have benefitted those who stayed home in London, Boston, New York, Chicago, Cleveland, St. Louis, and Denver. Thanksgiving doesn’t seem so far long ago when your names and your brothers’ include passed-down attendees at the first (Hi, Uncle Squanto!)
Thanks for chance to reflect on this, TRex. You always make me think (and talk!!) so much.
Oh, and you are more than welcome — isn’t that a HOOT!
EvilDrPuma — I was referring to the pineapple, but I understand your perspective. Fruit other than olives and tomatoes does not belong on a savory mediterranean flatbread.
I also detest finding raisins in salads and baked goods, or in meat dishes. Ugh. I hate surprises; they look like unexpected rabbit turds in the wrong foods.
Rayne @ 29
707!! Quite the visual there Rayne!
Years ago when I was about 7, my dad broke open one of those little white portable radios and pulled out something called a “Transistor.” It looked like a three legged spider in a top hat, and he told me that this little thing was going to change the whole world.
Fast forward, and I’ve uploaded over 40 Gigabytes of audio this to folks around the world, and we are very near to a time when learning pan-dimensional awareness will be as easy as playing a video game with a billion of your closest friends.
Thanks for breaking that stupid radio, Dad.
Change how Christmas is done in this country!
Rayne @ 29
HA!!
I am so with you on that.
The other day I got so excited because I saw what looked like chocolate chip cookies in the break room at the station. Then I got up close and saw that they were oatmeal raisin.
I fucking hate oatmeal raisin cookies. What’s the point? That’s not a cookie. It’s a breakfast-puck.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 28
The Hamilton County Dems aren’t much better. As Harrison Ullman used to say (and he would have loved this blog BTW) thy’re all Republicrats in Indiana.
TRex @ 32
I might occasionally eat raisins straight, especially in case of constipation. But the damn things have no place in combination with other foodstuffs.
Breakfast puck?
707
If I ever bake oatmeal raisin cookies again they will henceforth be known as “Breakfast Pucks”.
Fini - heh. I think it’s a childhood aversion that I never shook off, the raisin thing. I actually love raisins, plain old, muscat or golden, love them. But Mom used to sic me on making this disgusting carrot salad every Thanksgiving and Christmas, grated carrots with raisins and salad dressing. Ugh. Makes me queasy thinking about it. I think that cutting up my knuckles on the grater reinforced my disgust. Raisins simply do not belong near carrots. For starters.
Now, I have made oatmeal cookies with chocolate-covered raisins in them, and that was a kind of improvement, as were butterscotch chips.
TRex @ 37
Sure, but chocolate can improve damn near anything. It’s the great Aztec contribution to world cuisine. Almost makes up for all of that cutting your heart out and throwing your corpse down the steps business.
I’ve always thought carrot-raisin salad was some misguided attempt to create a look of fall via pine straw and pine cones. It’s disgusting, though, and I love carrots.
We should invent a carrot salad that’s actually good. Toss grated carrot with lime and pepper and chiles and red onions and purple cabbage. Now that’s a fitting fate for a carrot.
I once won a blue ribbon at the Bethlehem Fair for my oatmeal chocolate chip cookies … but they depended on the ancient gas stove in our house at the time for their success … no other stove has ever turned out quite the right consistency!
Oatmeal cookies, good. Especially with real vanilla in them.
But no f*cking raisins. Definitely a breakfast puck, like hardened granola vomit. Blech.
Twisted Martini @ 33
Harrison Ullman would have started blogging as soon as Blogger came online. This city lost its main progressive voice when he died. NUVO has turned into a cartoon of itself. I will make one recommendation and one recommendation only, check out Ruth Holliday’s blog at www.ruthholliday.com. She’s one of the only folks still speaking Truth around here. As for me, I’m trying to get the hell out of dodge before I lose my damn mind. And they wonder why there is a brain drain in Indiana.
And cucumbers.
TRex @ 37
With a dollop of fudge on ‘em and topped with a skosh of whipped cream.
All right, now who’s got the munchies?
TRex @ 15
We had turkey, stuffing (100-yr old recipe), sweet potatoes, mashed potatoes, gravy, fresh green beans, and for dessert, Mr. D. made pumpkin pie (also my grandmother’s recipe for filling and crust) and apple pie. Fresh whipped cream. Also good in coffee.
As for pizza, after Chicago and Milwaukee pizza, there’s nothing as good. I completely avoid “designer” pizza–the fruity kind, the ham or hamburger, artichokes, asparagus, etc. I don’t think of those types as pizza. It’s just crust with toppings. In VA, the crust is too thin or too thick, the sauce too skimpy or too much, the cheese in wrong proportion to the sauce.
EvilDrPuma @ 38
The Aztecs were not brutal. The cutting out of the heart and corpse-tossing is analagous to squeezing the chocolates in a Whitman Sampler to make sure you’re not the one getting stuck with the fucking cherry liqueur.
I don’t know if you made up that word, but I think I love it.
What do I think about this? Whew, there’s a book or two in that subject.
What I think, broadly and generally, is that America has its own kind of conformity that’s probably as widely expressed in society as it is in Japan, but in different ways. There is a generalized expectation that everyone believe in American exceptionalism and to “support” that view, just as there’s a generalized expectation that everyone conform in accepted ways–to view others in terms of what they own (that’s one of the byproducts of increasingly sophisticated advertising).
Corporate culture is as pervasive here as it is in Japan; it’s just expressed in different ways. And, let’s remember that the Japanese are no longer the hardest working people on earth–we are.
All that said, there’s more room here around the margins for weirdness, for the ability to find niches. Some of that is just a matter of space. I think you could put all of Japan inside California with a few thousand square miles to spare, but the population density would quadruple. What might that do to California’s innate weirdness? Probably, out of necessity, that would squeeze a lot of it out.
Americans have always had the ability to remake themselves simply by moving far away–without giving up citizenship. Bad marriage, succession of failures at work, simply move and become someone new. That’s one of minor themes of The Great Gatsby, the Horatio Alger series, the dime novels of the turn of the century.
I think your friend is right, generally, but certainly not in the specifics. Japan’s had a strong film industry, and has produced excellent (and certainly, oddball–think of Mishima) writers, along with a very, very long tradition of artists, so it’s not a matter of Japan having no creative impulses. It’s just that the tendencies to conformity are stronger.
As with most things, it’s more complicated than “Japan is culturally restrictive and the US is not.” We are in some ways approaching Japan (what, after all, are the culture wars but attempts to impose a uniform cultural system on the country?) while Japan is obviously seeing the psychological effects of subordinating the individual to the whole.
And cucumbers? do you mean a carrot and cucumber salad? I have one someplace, TRex, an Asian recipe come to think of it. Very light, palate cleansing, refreshing. I’ll see if I can find it.
And no f*cking rabbit turds in it, either.
TRex @ 43
In oatmeal cookies?
Man, what those therapods will snarf on when you turn your back.
felagund @ 11
This varies tremendously from location to location w/in the US… Some areas are far more tolerant of individuality than others - and they aren’t always the areas you might think. There are swirls and eddys of individualism, places where (ironically) the oddball can gather and fit in; they’re all over the US, little freak-friendly zones. Also, some professions are far more tolerant of eccentricities than others…
Your Mileage May Vary, as they say.
skosh = of Korean origin
[edit: nope, I remember now, it’s Japanese “sukoshi”; a Korean War vet told me he heard it used in Korea, must have been slang. My father used it a lot, a Naval intel officer of Polynesian-Asian background, hard to say where he picked it up.]
Brain drain? In Indiana? With a Senator like Evan Blah, how can we go wrong? Seriously, they are still arguing over whether daylight savings time is a good thing.
As a friend of mine said, “in New York it’s 9:00, in LA it’s 6:00 and in Indiana it’s 1955.”
Yes.
Now I’m hungry again.
Can I get raisins on the side? Hate to tell you Rayne, but I loved that carrot & raisin salad as a kid.
Twisted Martini @ 54
Communist.
Or, I could have waited for montag @ 47 and left it with a simple ‘what s/he said’.
Twisted Martini @ 54
Returning to the topic of the thread: do you have a wakizashi, or would you like to borrow mine?
TRex @ 55
I think that the production of carrot & raisin salad should be nationalized…
Well, yes and no. I know that’s the stereotype and there’s truth to it, but Japan has produced a ton of creative people … it’s highly desireable to get a job in the anime or game industries, and these exports have become a huge source of cultural “soft power” for Japan. Maybe I’m conflating “creative” with “non-conformist”, but I’ve seen enough changes in Japan over the last 20 years to where I don’t think the old paradigms fit as well. They’re in the middle of a gut-wrenching societal change as they adjust to a different economy than the one that propelled them to #2 in the world, an aging population, and younger generations that don’t quite buy into everything “Japanese” as their parents did.
Yeah, but there’s something going on in the sense of huge numbers of women not marrying, continuing to work past their 30’s (because it used to be that they were supposedly like “Christmas Cakes” … no one wanted them after they passed 25), making their own money and not settling down.
Also, Rayne @ 51, “skosh = of Korean origin” ? As opposed to “sukoshi”, Japanese for “a little bit”?
Twisted Martini @ 52
I know, we just had a discussion yesterday at Thanksgiving dinner in which my sister in law’s brother was expressing dismay that we switched to DST. It took all my patience to bite my tongue and allow him to have a 5 minute paean to backwardness.
TRex @ 46
Tis a really fine word and in my total ignorance, it is even in keeping with your Japanese-flavored post:
What about Sudoku? “The number puzzle sweeping the nation!” Valley Girl and I think the same on that game creation.
Respectful Dissent @ 59
You’ll never get a nationalist from either country to admit it, but Korean and Japanese appear to be fairly closely related linguistically. The grammars, at least, are very, very similar. I’ve never had an opportunity to pick up more than a few words of Korean, though, so I can’t say much about the phonetics.
Here, TRex, this one is pretty close, saves me from having to dig through the boxes in the basement for my cookbook that has the right recipe.
I think you want to tweak the dressing a bit; I’d start with a little less rice wine vinegar, add a scant teaspoon of white sugar, a healthy squeeze of lime juice, and only 1 teaspoon of toasted sesame oil (they don’t specify toasted or untoasted in this recipe), salt to taste. I also add a few dashes of red pepper flakes or a slivered fresh jalapeno (hold the seeds) if I want a bit more kick, depending on whether I have jalapeno on hand or not.
Yum, I think I might fix this to serve with some grilled salmon tomorrow night.
You want to see a Japanese person freak out? Tell them that scientists have mapped their genome and that they are actually descendants of Korean settlers of the Japanese islands.
That just burns them up.
So does skosh rhyme with squash or the first syllable of socialism?
Twisted Martini — you can have my share of carrot-raisin salad in perpetuity. I might even be brave enough to grate carrots now, if you want to finish the rest of the prep. Just don’t make me eat it. Agh.
Respectful Dissent — I edited what I said about “skosh” after another 30 seconds of thought. We’re on the same page.
The latter, I believe.
TRex @ 66
I’ve always heard it with a long “o” amongst people in the military.
Rayne @ 64
Hell, yeah!
That sounds awesome.
TRex @ 66
Long o sound like in socialism. Sko’sh.
EvilDrPuma @ 63
Grammatically, they’re similar, yah. Phonetically, however, they’re not, so that I’m betting “sukoshi” doesn’t have a homonym in Korean. Words based on Chinese characters are often similar (”shinbun” in Japanese and “shimbum” in Korean, I think, although ironically the Chinese use a different set of characters for newspaper … ), but not because of something intrinsic and common to both languages. So far as I know.
I also know that for whatever grammatical reasons, Koreans and Japanese have a much easier time learning each others’ languages than Westerners do!
TRex @ 65
And yet, it is so. It’s also pretty clear from genetic, skeletal, and archaeological evidence that the Ainu are the descendants of the Jomon inhabitants of Japan, and that (contrary to popular stereotype of Ainu as eternal hunter-gatherers and therefore “backwards”) Ainu ancestors on Hokkaido were farming from at least the 7th or 8th century until sometime after 1300. I’m sure that information doesn’t go over well either, but the archaeology on Hokkaido is rather convincing.
TRex @ 66
The latter. It’s a long “o.”
I have a comment stuck in moderation if someone could unclog the toobz.
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 72
Paging Ted Stevens…
EvilDrPuma 71 — much more specific information out there that Japanese will have to deal with, sooner or later. See Dr. Spencer Wells’ work on mapping the spread of the human genome through his tracking of common genetic mutations documented in haploid types. Fascinating stuff.
Twisted Martini @ 74
… and his Tom Swift electronic roto-rooter.
(btw, one of mine is there, too, for no apparently good reason.)
Rayne @ 74
I might take a look, but my practical knowledge of genetics is limited to the rudiments that I’ve needed to teach a human origins class effectively. “Haploid types” meaning, I would presume, sex-linked traits?
Everybody refresh. We had a clog in the toobz. I opened the gate, but we may have missed some things.
I think the Wordpress comment moderation plugin every once in a while will single out random victims for moderation as a warning to the general population like Japanese guards in WW2 would kill a new prisoner in every batch of POWs brought to internment camps.
I love it when you talk dirty.
Yeah, but TRex, what I say on late-nite stays on late-nite.
I can’t even do the “easy” Sudoku puzzles.
Dana @ 85
Neither can I. I simply don’t get the idea behind the game. I never was any good with math anyway.
Doesn’t Subaru refer to the “seven sisters” constellation? Hence, the stars in the logo?
montag >
also note that much of Japan is mountain/unuseable space making the crowding greater than many think
Their creativity has, historically, been expressed differently & in ways not obvious to those that have never lived on an island &/or in a feudal situation
And Mishima is truly one of the core human examples of “oddball”…
Note they did turn away from firearms for a little over 200 years which I think is an interesting social comment
“We are accustomed to the new land yet attached to the old country” - anon
Is everybody off grating carrots?
Dana @ 89
Nah, I was fixing me a turkey sammich.
EvilDrPuma — affirmative on the haploid types.
Dana, Fini — Sudoku isn’t a math game, it’s a logic game. Here’s the easiest solution to any puzzle.
EPU’d:
TeddySanFran @ 106
Fini FiniTOOBZ! @ 90
I had one for lunch with Woebers horseradish sauce. Like Miracle Whip with horseradish in it. Wicked hot but good stuff!
yup, pineapple and ham - a California thing…
somehow, it tastes just fine in this state…