who says zed’s dead?

from the zed to the thread

Here Here

Ya know jay, I would have been first, but TRex always gets me reading im before I comment!

BTW, you are right on target T. I have been saying this for years. Conscription teaches humility and respect. It creates a society of equals(well almost)even if it is for just a short period of time.

Hats off to Charlie Rangel. A true patriot!

I love what Rangel’s doing, but as the father of an eighteen year old son – well….

jayt @ 4

I love what Rangel’s doing, but as the father of an eighteen year old son – well….

Don’t worry. More bodies in the military means a statistical improvement of everybody’s odds of not taking a bullet or a blast from an IED.

It’s all going to be juuuuuuuuust fiiiiiiiiiine…

Draft our young people! It will solve this nation’s obesity problem. It could even solve our drug problem(s). Let’s get this shiftless generation of mouth-breathing, Cheeto-eating, Generation X-Boxers up off the couch and into uniforms!

Right and I understand that the military has some strict rules on blogging and so that will free us here in cyberspace of all this clutter from clueless youth and let us geezers handle things here in a mature and responsible way.

T-Rex: As a child of the 60’s and potential cannon fodder I recall the draft all too well. If you think the rich and powerful won’t dream ways to keep their sons and daughters (daughters weren’t at risk last time) out of harm’s way this time too you’re dreaming. Jenna and Not Jenna would not serve any more than their daddy aWol didn’t serve and Dick Five Deferments Cheney didn’t serve. What it will scoop up is more middle class kids whose parents may be less than thrilled to support clusterfuck’s little adventures.

Hey, TRex!

I’m still giggling at Joe Scarborough’s little meltdown with Lawrence O’Donnell! Joe doesn’t much like being called a coward and a chickenhawk…

I understand where Charlie is coming from. But I believe that the rich kids will *still* have loopholes, or buy them. There’s no way Jenna and not-Jenna, or Lieberman’s kids are going to go get shot at.

And I *don’t* think a draft will deter the Warmonger in the White House. It would probably just make him think he could go after Iran and Syria after all.

BTW, it was a while ago now in your part of the work but KO was terrific on the comparison between Chimpy and LBJ and the lessons from Viet Nam.

Even in Rangel’s 2 year program, there would would still be preferential treatment. *cough* Texas Air Guard *cough*

here on the west coast they are replaying Keith again in 30 minutes. Gonna get me some Keith!

Charlie Rangel first batted this idea around almost four years ago.

I wrote this in another net life when I first heard about it.

Charlie will probably never be able to get what he wants–a perfectly unbiased draft, and he runs the risk of the assholes in the Democratic Party voting for a draft with lots of amendments and loopholes.

It’s a dangerous game Rangel is playing, and I wish he were able to find another way to say that the rich and powerful aren’t supporting the war in the same way that the poor and powerless are.

Cheers.

Let’s first draft persons who have made public statements in the media in support of starting and continuing this war. Let’s do it without regard for age, gender, physical condition, or income. Send in the PNAC authors. Send in the pundits. Send in the right-wing radio jocks–Limbaugh and Hannity and Gallagher and Beck and Savage and all those guys. Send in the Republican House and Senate caucuses. Send in Cheney and Rumsfeld. Send in Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, and Laura Ingraham. Send Paul Bremer and Bernie Kerik back, and this time make ‘em work for it.

It’s the only way to avoid ignominous defeat. We’ll have the insurgents laughing so hard they can’t see to set an IED.

randiego @ 13

here on the west coast they are replaying Keith again in 30 minutes. Gonna get me some Keith!

You can get it now, see link at 11 above.

montag @ 14

It’s a dangerous game Rangel is playing, and I wish he were able to find another way to say that the rich and powerful aren’t supporting the war in the same way that the poor and powerless are.

My sentiments precisely.

Damn TRex… I was hoping for more snark. I think it’s in there, but the word DRAFT keeps freezing my brain.

It makes me shudder, and I’m too old to be at risk. This country would go bonkers if they tried to push this for serious.

Who was it today who said that the Repubs were floating a series of lead balloons on Iraq for… well some reason that didn’t make any sense?

OldCoastie @ 8

Hey, TRex!

I’m still giggling at Joe Scarborough’s little meltdown with Lawrence O’Donnell! Joe doesn’t much like being called a coward and a chickenhawk…

Do you have a link to this?

TRex @ 19

OldCoastie @ 8

Hey, TRex!

I’m still giggling at Joe Scarborough’s little meltdown with Lawrence O’Donnell! Joe doesn’t much like being called a coward and a chickenhawk…

Do you have a link to this?

nah – just watched it on the tv tonight…

I’m with Pete. I remember the draft from last time. Kids like the Bush twins don’t get drafted. I don’t think Jenna and Barabara will sully their Manolos with the dust of Baghdad. Ever.

But my son would. He’s just an ordinary kid about to graduate from college, without any special connections or wealth. I think national service is an admirable thing. I support his desire to join the Peace Corps, and not because I think it’s safe for Americans anywhere in the world. But to watch him get scooped up by the war machine–and for what–I can’t support that. Kids who do join are likely to get the idealism beaten out of them by the reality of what we are doing over there, if they survive it. I get Rangel’s point, but the have-mores won’t allow a system that affects them.

TRex @
6

jayt @ 4

I love what Rangel’s doing, but as the father of an eighteen year old son – well….

Don’t worry. More bodies in the military means a statistical improvement of everybody’s odds of not taking a bullet or a blast from an IED.

It’s all going to be juuuuuuuuust fiiiiiiiiiine…

And if the winger’s and/or kids have to go, you bet there’ll be plenty of armor to go around.

I’m all for mandatory national service for all citizens at age 18. It’s fair and equitable, and it would have kept an immature dipshit like myself from going to college before I was ready.

I think the point Susan and I are making is that the benefit of being rich and powerful is that you are rich and powerful and can avoid the unpleasntries of life that those of us who are not have to endure. I saw too many friends take drastic measures to avoid going to Nam (although it was an incentive to study hard enough to keep that student deferment). I like EDP’s idea @15, you want a war, go fight it or STFU.

I have an idea, since certain socioeconomic classes are missing out on service, much like Tom Delay did with Vietnam (you know, where the blacks and mexicans took all the good jobs and didn’t leave him one), maybe we could set up a draft with some “affirmative action” characteristics to get more rich white kids in where they can see some of the good action.

Suppose the rich wingers would forgo tax cuts so their kids could drive around in an impenetrable fortress of Amurkin hardware?

Or keep their tax cuts and send them off in Levi’s.

flounder @ 25

I have an idea, since certain socioeconomic classes are missing out on service, much like Tom Delay did with Vietnam (you know, where the blacks and mexicans took all the good jobs and didn’t leave him one), maybe we could set up a draft with some “affirmative action” characteristics to get more rich white kids in where they can see some of the good action.

Yeah, family income in excess of $100,000 guarantees a front line seat.

flounder @ 24

I have an idea, since certain socioeconomic classes are missing out on service, much like Tom Delay did with Vietnam (you know, where the blacks and mexicans took all the good jobs and didn’t leave him one), maybe we could set up a draft with some “affirmative action” characteristics to get more rich white kids in where they can see some of the good action.

Capital idea!

Let’s send it to Rangel!

petedownunder @ 24

I think the point Sussan and I are making is that the benefit of being rich and powerful is that you are rich and powerful and can avoid the unpleasntries of life that those of us who are not have to endure. I saw too many friends take drastic measures to avoid going to Nam (although it was an incentive to study hard enough to keep that student deferment). I like EDP’s idea @15, you want a war, go fight it or STFU.

I don’t think that cr@p would flush anymore. We’ve got to much instant information about what’s goin’ on (in this country anyways) for that to happen again.

The main clue here is all the wingnuts who insist we’re in a war that the smelly hippies want us to lose are against the draft.

Ergo, Go Charlie!

flounder @ 25

I have an idea, since certain socioeconomic classes are missing out on service, much like Tom Delay did with Vietnam (you know, where the blacks and mexicans took all the good jobs and didn’t leave him one), maybe we could set up a draft with some “affirmative action” characteristics to get more rich white kids in where they can see some of the good action.

Now that’s a sweet bit of ideological aikido. I like the way you think.

If I had been born male, I would have gone to Vietnam. My birthday was drawn #4. I had a friend whose birthday was the same day. He was a conscientious objector and spent the war in Georgia, with a Catholic carpenter’s union, building homes for the homeless.

I lost a few friends and acquaintances. I agree the draft would level the playing field somewhat, but if we’re going to war with the whole world it’s gonna take a while and then it’s personal and I scream NOT MY BOY just like all them rich fucks. No different. I’m not giving my boy as cannon fodder to feed the Boy Moron’s ego.

No. Way.

He can go build houses for the homeless, tho, for two years and be a better man for it.

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 29

I don’t think that cr@p would flush anymore. We’ve got to much instant information about what’s goin’ on (in this country anyways) for that to happen again.

Thunder, I wish that were true, but look at all the cr@p and war profiteering going on now that even though we know about can’t stop, at least until January.

Heading home, kids.

Y’all don’t freak out too bad. My tongue was vurrrrry firmly in my cheek when I wrote this post.

Late Nite Tune:

Full Snuggle Blues

The draft would serve as a brake on foreign adventurism. It is much more difficult to go to war with an army of draftees as opposed to an army of volunteers.
Plus, over the long haul, a permanent volunteer army is a real danger to any republic.

I think Rangel’s gambit is excellent. It puts all the chickenhawks in their place, and points out the hypocrisy of all their arguments.

A draft system would immediately put a damper on military misadventures in this country.

I’m fairly certain that socioeconomic status don’t get you out of the draft in Israel.

CNN reports that gas prices are up.

Oh yeah, the election’s over…

TRex @
33

Heading home, kids.

Y’all don’t freak out too bad. My tongue was vurrrrry firmly in my cheek when I wrote this.

There’s a really big, very sensitive nerve right there in the middle of that cheek, TRex.
I’m having reflexive jerks.

My eight year old asked me as I was in the midst of bellowing at the TV (Scarborough–what an apt name for a hawk), and interrupting her homework, what all the commotion was about. I made a shallow attempt at explaining the concept of “draft.” She, of course, asked the obvious, “Why do they want to kill people.”

I almost started to explain the nature of war when it suddenly occurred to me that I couldn’t. I couldn’t put it in terms she would understand because she deals with facts and causes and effects and the concept of war, this war in particular, makes so very little sense. Why do they want to kill people? What is worth fighting for? I’d fight for my children, my family but precious little else these days.

What is there in the world that should make one human pick up a weapon and, with it, go forth with the specific intent to break the first commandment–the first commandment, not of Christendom, but of any civilized nation. What is worth killing for, to protect that civilized nation from the uncivilized? To protect what we are we must become what we wish to protect ourselves from?

Even if it were not a big pile of steaming fecal matter; even if I were blinded by the hollow words of patriotism that cowards speak from the safety of their ivory towers; even then, I’d like to hope the shear irony of the predicament would stay my hand. Why would I want to kill anyone?

Gawd. Here we are. Draft.
I knew, when I saw the idiot in chief back in 2001, this was the course he had set our country on…
I grew up in the 70s. Silicon Valley, though we didn’t call it that then.
Three boys from my street, all about 10 years older than me, were drafted. One street. Two came back. One was tortured, we later figured out, and took a gun and shot himself in the head when I was in 6th grade and walking by his house on my way home. The other hung himself in his parents’ house about 10 years after that.
We said never again.
And that was 30 years ago.
The US does indeed have short term historical memory.
No wonder Bush was re-elected.

neurophius @ 37

CNN reports that gas prices are up.

Oh yeah, the election’s over…

And lowering gas prices didn’t exactly get the voters flocking to the GOP…so don’t be surprised if they go way up.

TRex @ 28

flounder @ 24

I have an idea, since certain socioeconomic classes are missing out on service, much like Tom Delay did with Vietnam (you know, where the blacks and mexicans took all the good jobs and didn’t leave him one), maybe we could set up a draft with some “affirmative action” characteristics to get more rich white kids in where they can see some of the good action.

Capital idea!

Let’s send it to Rangel!

If you check with Redd, I think you’ll discover that such would be illegal under the 14th amendment. The rich have always survived by gaming the system.

OldCoastie @ 9

Hey, TRex!

I’m still giggling at Joe Scarborough’s little meltdown with Lawrence O’Donnell! Joe doesn’t much like being called a coward and a chickenhawk…

I stopped what I was doing and stood in front of the teevee watching with open mouth while Scarborough and friends completely blew apart. It was one of the best things about being home this evening. I think I’m going to email Scarborough and simply say, “You’re still living in a pre-9/11 mind-set”.

When these chickenhawks feel the heat they’ve been throwing out coming back at them, they just can’t take it, can they?

Draft = wars in Iran, Syria, N. Korea, escalation in Iraq … Not having a draft is all that has kept us out of more trouble. If BuSh had the capital (= troops) he would spend it (them).

We should be shrinking the military and their budget, not enlarging it. When there is an actual need, not fear mongering for corporate greed such as with the “global war on terror” (”We have always been at war with East Asia”), then a draft can be instituted. However, there are very few, probably none (maybe Feingold), of our current crop of DC thieves that I would trust to make that call.

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 29

Ergo, Go Charlie!

I just have to point out the utter irony. After all, Charlie don’t surf…

Oilfieldguy @ 26

Suppose the rich wingers would forgo tax cuts so their kids could drive around in an impenetrable fortress of Amurkin hardware?

Or keep their tax cuts and send them off in Levi’s.

Or wranglers in honor dismay of Rep. Rangel.

TRex @ 33

Heading home, kids.

Y’all don’t freak out too bad. My tongue was vurrrrry firmly in my cheek when I wrote this post.

Hope so. The last draft ended at the age of thirty-nine. You’re, what, thirty-eight?

Let’s hope, for your sake, that Charlie’s just funnin’ the rich white folks.

Mommybrain,

I hear ya. They voted on the draft a couple of years ago, went down 402-2 or something like that. Even Rangel voted against it.

I got a boy, 21, and had to do some serious talking to keep him out of the fight.

TRex is calling the ‘tards out on their hypocricy, and Rangel is making noise.

Then again, so is Maverick with his “more troops” talk.

Still, this Iraq thing, there is no way we can put all this shit back into the elephant that dumped it.

I still have may draft card in my wallet. I recently read that the most red state (Utah) has the lowest percentage of citizens in the military.
I wonder where Idaho is stands?

Draft = wars in Iran, Syria, N. Korea, escalation in Iraq … Not having a draft is all that has kept us out of more trouble. If BuSh had the capital (= troops) he would spend it (them).

yeah – that volunteer army really slowed Bush down, eh?

randiego @ 36

I think Rangel’s gambit is excellent. It puts all the chickenhawks in their place, and points out the hypocrisy of all their arguments.

A draft system would immediately put a damper on military misadventures in this country.

I’m fairly certain that socioeconomic status don’t get you out of the draft in Israel.

I understand and appreciate the politics of Rangel’s proposal.

However, I don’t think the draft stopped us from going into Viet Nam. I don’t think the Israelis refrained from taking another pointless whack at Lebanon because they have a draft. You may not get out of service in Israel, but if you’re a model, you won’t have to carry an assault rifle because we don’t want bruises on thos pretty legs.

Anybody else here remember when Selective Service registration was re-instated? In 1980, by Carter, after the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. We showed those darn Russkis how tough we were by updating our list of potential cannon fodder.

I remember how I felt then, being used as a pointless political gesture. I feel the same now – even though i understand and agree with the political point being made.

I feel it even more strongly having a 15-year-old in the house. I do not trust to the magical powers of a draft restraining the idiots on both sides who rule us.

johnSwifty @ 39

My eight year old asked me as I was in the midst of bellowing at the TV (Scarborough–what an apt name for a hawk), and interrupting her homework, what all the commotion was about. I made a shallow attempt at explaining the concept of “draft.” She, of course, asked the obvious, “Why do they want to kill people.”

I almost started to explain the nature of war when it suddenly occurred to me that I couldn’t. I couldn’t put it in terms she would understand because she deals with facts and causes and effects and the concept of war, this war in particular, makes so very little sense. Why do they want to kill people? What is worth fighting for? I’d fight for my children, my family but precious little else these days.

What is there in the world that should make one human pick up a weapon and, with it, go forth with the specific intent to break the first commandment–the first commandment, not of Christendom, but of any civilized nation. What is worth killing for, to protect that civilized nation from the uncivilized? To protect what we are we must become what we wish to protect ourselves from?

Even if it were not a big pile of steaming fecal matter; even if I were blinded by the hollow words of patriotism that cowards speak from the safety of their ivory towers; even then, I’d like to hope the shear irony of the predicament would stay my hand. Why would I want to kill anyone?

Two possible answers:

They disagree about what happens to you after you die, so they kill each other.

Or the Bushco Answer;

They hate freedom.

johnSwifty @ 45

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 29

Ergo, Go Charlie!

I just have to point out the utter irony. After all, Charlie don’t surf…

And we think he should! (Can’t find that on youtube, either, dangit.)

“Still, this Iraq thing, there is no way we can put all this shit back into the elephant that dumped it.”

OFG, honey, you do have a silver tongue and I’m glad your son had the wisdom to listen to you.

Here’s a little factoid about the draft for those not over the age of seventy or so.

There was never a draft in time of undeclared war in this country until 1947 (for the Army and Marines only–Navy and Air Force were strictly volunteer services). That so-called peacetime draft persisted until 1977. In that time, the United States fought undeclared wars in Korea, Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia, and in armed insurrections in the Dominican Republic in 1956 and 1965, and in many other lesser known locations around the world.

All without a declaration of war by Congress.

Patrick 4/4 @ 51

I feel it even more strongly having a 15-year-old in the house. I do not trust to the magical powers of a draft restraining the idiots on both sides who rule us.

Yep, I’ve got a 14 year old and a 12 year old to go along with their kid sister. We live very close to Canada and I hear they have national health care there. The positive aspect of global warming should insure mild weather there in the coming millennium. Also, a lot of funny folks come from Canada. I wonder why that is?

Regardless, my point is the same as yours. I wouldn’t trust a my children’s lives to a political gesture. Allegiance to a country is a fine and marvelous thing; surpassed only by the government of that country’s allegiance to its people.

koufax

Oilfieldguy @ 52

johnSwifty @ 39

Why would I want to kill anyone?

Two possible answers:

They disagree about what happens to you after you die, so they kill each other.

Or the Bushco Answer;

They hate freedom.

I know, intrinsically, you’re spot on with the first, and I’ll probably not surprise you by asserting my belief that killing people won’t alleviate the fear and uncertainty of dealing with oblivion; but, that’s probably an agnostic’s rationale.

For the second: man, for folks that hate freedom, they’re sure fighting like son’s o bitches to get free of Bush’s fiasco. And that’s an obvious trick of semantics.

johnSwifty @ 56

Patrick 4/4 @ 51

I feel it even more strongly having a 15-year-old in the house. I do not trust to the magical powers of a draft restraining the idiots on both sides who rule us.

Yep, I’ve got a 14 year old and a 12 year old to go along with their kid sister. We live very close to Canada and I hear they have national health care there. The positive aspect of global warming should insure mild weather there in the coming millennium. Also, a lot of funny folks come from Canada. I wonder why that is?

Regardless, my point is the same as yours. I wouldn’t trust a my children’s lives to a political gesture. Allegiance to a country is a fine and marvelous thing; surpassed only by the government of that country’s allegiance to its people.

When I filled out my Selective Service form in 1980, I don’t think there was any white space left on it where I hadn’t spelled out in detail why I objected to being used as a flaccid political gesture. I expect to see it again some day when I need security clearance or run for dog catcher.

Just in case, Quaker.org

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 53

johnSwifty @ 45

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 29

Ergo, Go Charlie!

I just have to point out the utter irony. After all, Charlie don’t surf…

And we think he should! (Can’t find that on youtube, either, dangit.)

What about that “The Ride of the Valkyries?” Surely someone did a video dump of the Kilgore, “Smell’s like victory…” scene?

Patrick 4/4 @ 59

When I filled out my Selective Service form in 1980, I don’t think there was any white space left on it where I hadn’t spelled out in detail why I objected to being used as a flaccid political gesture. I expect to see it again some day when I need security clearance or run for dog catcher.

I think Dennis Raider (sp?) really took the bloom off that dog catcher rose.

Although I support Rangel’s call for a draft for all the reasons explained above, I do not support Karen Carter for Congress. I have decided to abstain from the LA-02 race, although I did donate to one of the Democrats who failed to qualify for the runoff.

Nite ‘pups

Oilfieldguy @ 64

Nite ‘pups

Same. Peace, out here.

johnSwifty @ 62

Patrick 4/4 @ 59

When I filled out my Selective Service form in 1980, I don’t think there was any white space left on it where I hadn’t spelled out in detail why I objected to being used as a flaccid political gesture. I expect to see it again some day when I need security clearance or run for dog catcher.

I think Dennis Raider (sp?) really took the bloom off that dog catcher rose.

Yeah, but he’s got the whole religious thing going. 60% of Americans say they wouldn’t vote for an atheist. They didn’t ask how many would consider voting for a serial killer.

So it’s a good news/bad news kinda thing.

It’s an indication of just how topsy-turvy, inside out, upside down, ass backwards, bugfuck crazy this country has gone under the Bush regime’s Reign of the Killer Clowns — to believe that military conscription will prevent wars … Sure thing: And large harems promote celibacy among powerful sheiks.

From Joe Galloway’s last column :

” 7 tenths of one per cent of our country are bearing the weight of the war.”

That seems to be the organizing principal of the draft debate.

Here’s a great pair of hands :

http://photos1.blogger.com/blo….._clr.0.gif

Here’s the Olbermann clip from tonight :

http://thank-you-keith-olbermann.blogspot.com/

John Swifty @ 61, Ride of the Valkyries is there.

But that Clash song is awesome.

weeping at the very notion- a little too close to home….

Our Lady of Waco shows some stones:

AP

Reno Files Challenge to Terror Law

- – - – - – - – - – - -

By MATT APUZZO Associated Press Writer

November 20,2006 | WASHINGTON — Former Attorney General Janet Reno and seven other former Justice Department officials filed court papers Monday arguing that the Bush administration is setting a dangerous precedent by trying a suspected terrorist outside the court system.

It was the first time that Reno, attorney general in the Clinton administration, has spoken out against the administration’s policies on terrorism detainees, underscoring how contentious the court fight over the nation’s new military commissions law has become. Former attorneys general rarely file court papers challenging administration policy.

For the second: man, for folks that hate freedom, they’re sure fighting like son’s o bitches to get free of Bush’s fiasco. And that’s an obvious trick of semantics.

That’s the problem with you damn libruls. You’re all secretly Anti-Semantic.

Does anyone think if a draft were in full force now we would not be in the same or worse quagmire with the exception of a three to six hundred thousand additional troops in the mix, thousands more deaths, tens of thousands more wounded, active engagement with Iran and another half a trillion or more in debt?

At least another few hundred thousand Iraqis alone would be dead and countless Iranians. Cheney would probably have already nuked North Korea in retaliation for their tests.

Impeachment would be complete by now and the Hague would be building a new wing.

John Swifty said:
My eight year old asked me as I was in the midst of bellowing at the TV … She, of course, asked the obvious, “Why do they want to kill people?”

i will explain this for you so that you can explain it to your daughter:
when some people – mostly people with an under-developed sense of humanness – get really mad, they go into a tantrum state. they like to march off and shoot and blow things up and kill strangers who they decided to hate. this is called war.

most of us know that they don’t actually kill all the soldiers that they hate. they mostly kill women and children. the ones they don’t kill right away, they make them run away from their homes and friends and family, and then they starve to death, or catch diseases. or they are raped and murdered. so mostly it’s not soldiers who get killed, it’s women and children.

it doesn’t do any good, but it makes the bullies and limp-dicked losers like dick cheney and dick nixon and george bush feel better.
you see, they aren’t very smart. if they really wanted what they say they want, they could find a way to get it without all the explosions and death. i’m not entirely sure, but i think that either they really like killing women and children, or they’re just not smart at all. you’ll probably meet people like that when you go to school. stay away from them.

TRex @ 72

For the second: man, for folks that hate freedom, they’re sure fighting like son’s o bitches to get free of Bush’s fiasco. And that’s an obvious trick of semantics.

That’s the problem with you damn libruls. You’re all secretly Anti-Semantic.

707

Is punaise around? I thought that was him until I looked up at the nametag.

Hope so. The last draft ended at the age of thirty-nine. You’re, what, thirty-eight?

Let’s hope, for your sake, that Charlie’s just funnin’ the rich white folks.

If there was a draft and I got called up, I would serve. Why shouldn’t I? I’m not special. Yeah, I’m 38, gay, and a pacifist, but this country has provided me with a free education and a million other benefits that I take for granted every day. I would be scared and angry, sure, but if my country needed me to fight, I would go. I have no excuses. I’m healthy and able-bodied and fairly intelligent.

That’s the difference between me and a Wingnut. For generations, the men in my family have served this country and I would do so, too.

I don’t think anyone really believes that a draft would come to pass. The public outrage alone would doom it.

I am enjoying the shrieking sound coming from the Right, however.

Yeah, I’ve got to chime in here, too. I have a very nice 27-year-old son, my only child, born after I had five miscarriages, and had despaired of ever having a child. After his father and I divorced when my son was a year old, it was just him and me for a lot of years until I remarried when he was 15. Now he’s out on his own and making a success of his life, in terms of doing something that makes him happy and has a positive impact on other young people (he’s the athletic director at a Boys & Girls Club). If I say so myself, he’s a good man — funny, kind, and just an all around good guy. He’ll be a great husband and father some day, and will leave this world a little better than he found it. And there’s no way Commander Codpiece will ever get his blood-stained hands on him for one of his Fantastic Adventures while I’m still breathing.

TRex @ 76

Hope so. The last draft ended at the age of thirty-nine. You’re, what, thirty-eight?

Let’s hope, for your sake, that Charlie’s just funnin’ the rich white folks.

If there was a draft and I got called up, I would serve. Why shouldn’t I? I’m not special. Yeah, I’m 38, gay, and a pacifist, but this country has provided me with a free education and a million other benefits that I take for granted every day. I would be scared and angry, sure, but if my country needed me to fight, I would go. I have no excuses. I’m healthy and able-bodied and fairly intelligent.

That’s the difference between me and a Wingnut. For generations, the men in my family have served this country and I would do so, too.

Even for a war that’s immoral and illegal? Well, I can’t argue that one. I did, too, with the aim of doing no harm.

But, keep this in mind, if it comes to pass.

Cheers.

you are all forgetting the root cause of our action in Iraq in the first place…OIL…peak oil is why we WILL have national service{the draft}and why there isnt fuckall anyone can do about it…Its why CERE[poor propaganda..bad data base}is trying to say with certainty that peak is tin-foil hat territory{ajusting my mark-4 alcoa special}
We need troops for the planned wars in syria,Iran,and dont forget chavez down south…hes had the audacity to help his poor campisenos/indios….his example must be crushed

..fyi.. The Dixie Chicks are on Charlie Rose now. They are discussing their new movie etc.

TRex @
76

If there was a draft and I got called up, I would serve. Why shouldn’t I? I’m not special. Yeah, I’m 38, gay, and a pacifist, but this country has provided me with a free education and a million other benefits that I take for granted every day. I would be scared and angry, sure, but if my country needed me to fight, I would go. I have no excuses. I’m healthy and able-bodied and fairly intelligent.

That’s the difference between me and a Wingnut. For generations, the men in my family have served this country and I would do so, too.

I’d fight for my country too, were it actually at risk. But this ain’t it…this would be a draft for further corporate profit and for Bush not to further embarrass himself.

No fucking way.

Geez, there’s not enough equipment and body armor for the troops they already have. I can just see an Army of draftees in jeans and t-shirts, with trash-can lids taped to their chests and pudding bowls on their heads, heading into battle on scooters.

77 RE: “I am enjoying the shrieking sound coming from the Right, however.”

But I can’t say I’m enjoying witnessing lefty sorts sounding like good Germans and uttering platitudinous and dangerous nonsense such as 76’s goose-stepping palaver: “but if my country needed me to fight, I would go. I have no excuses. I’m healthy and able-bodied and fairly intelligent.”

Your country needed you to kill and be killed for the strategic advantage of the Persian Gulf’s oil rich real estate in the late winter of 03 … If there had been a draft — would you have gone?

..fyi.. The Dixie Chicks are on Charlie Rose now. They are discussing their new movie etc.

I saw the Dixie Chicks movie… go see it! It’s excellent!

Eureka Springs, AR @ 73

Does anyone think if a draft were in full force now we would not be in the same or worse quagmire with the exception of a three to six hundred thousand additional troops in the mix, thousands more deaths, tens of thousands more wounded, active engagement with Iran and another half a trillion or more in debt?

At least another few hundred thousand Iraqis alone would be dead and countless Iranians. Cheney would probably have already nuked North Korea in retaliation for their tests.

Impeachment would be complete by now and the Hague would be building a new wing.

I think you’re right. I hate to think what it would be like if we had tens of thousands of young men and women ready to march into Syria, Iran, etc.

I missed Keith Olbermann earlier this evening, but watched the rerun during the past hour. His Special Comments continue to amaze me for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that his corporate bosses continue to allow him to do them.

I respect what TRex said about military service, not only because my father and two grandfathers served, but also because I know he recently worked his ass off trying to elect a principled U.S. senator who would have helped to reverse this administration’s disasterous policy known as the Iraq war.

I think we’re overlooking the nostalgia factor. Kids just don’t appreciate the sublime humor and social satire of Beetle Bailey and re-runs of Gome Pyle USMC.

I like this article on Keith–its a week old.

From the article:

“I think,” says MSNBC General Manager Dan Abrams, “that Keith Olbermann may become a model for the newscast of the future.”

And sure, Abrams is going to say that because he’s Olbermann’s boss. Besides, the MSNBC ratings have been on a roll lately — helped by the 67 percent jump in viewership for Olbermann’s show in the year since he began channeling Howard (”I’m as mad as hell, and I’m not going to take this any more!”) Beale from the movie “Network.”

Ratings talk.

It’s a good thing I’m too old and out of shape. Hell, my kids are too old and out of shape, and my grandbabies are all less than four.

But I was young and fine condition in the 60’s and 70’s so I remember well the psychology of the draft. It did more than anything else to motivate youth and promote anti-war sentiment and turn a generation political. It also fostered the great American Cultural Revolution, which while eventually being subsumed by the so-called traditionalists, who hate us still (they were jealous because we had so much more fun), did more to change this country for the better than anything else.

If you want to see young people actually care about the world they live in, protest its wrongs and get out and vote, a draft is as good a way as any. That said, I hate the idea of a draft. Did then. Do now. But Rangel has a point.

Margot @
86

Eureka Springs, AR @ 73

Does anyone think if a draft were in full force now we would not be in the same or worse quagmire with the exception of a three to six hundred thousand additional troops in the mix, thousands more deaths, tens of thousands more wounded, active engagement with Iran and another half a trillion or more in debt?

At least another few hundred thousand Iraqis alone would be dead and countless Iranians. Cheney would probably have already nuked North Korea in retaliation for their tests.

Impeachment would be complete by now and the Hague would be building a new wing.

I think you’re right. I hate to think what it would be like if we had tens of thousands of young men and women ready to march into Syria, Iran, etc.

If we had college-eligible kids from upper-middle class families being drafted, American politics would be an entirely different matter.

Right now, most college kids are conservative or apathetic. Inheritance tax and competition from the next wave of imigrants are their key concerns. Worse yet, competition from Asians who stay at home. Damn this flat fucking earth.

jayt @
5

I love what Rangel’s doing, but as the father of an eighteen year old son – well….

yeah, I’m wrestling with that one, too

1. Go big.
2. Go long.
3. Go home.

4. Go fish.

KO was amazing.

punaise @ 93

1. Go big.
2. Go long.
3. Go home.

4. Go fish.

5. Go Greyhound.

PRock @ 84

77 RE: “I am enjoying the shrieking sound coming from the Right, however.”

But I can’t say I’m enjoying witnessing lefty sorts sounding like good Germans and uttering platitudinous and dangerous nonsense such as 76’s goose-stepping palaver: “but if my country needed me to fight, I would go. I have no excuses. I’m healthy and able-bodied and fairly intelligent.”

Your country needed you to kill and be killed for the strategic advantage of the Persian Gulf’s oil rich real estate in the late winter of 03 … If there had been a draft — would you have gone?

It’s a tricky question. Whether or not you support the war or the government, in a military draft, those are your brother and sister citizens putting their lives on the line in the field of battle. I am not selfish enough to think that I deserve to be an exception. I don’t believe that my life is necessarily worth more than some 18 year old kid who otherwise would be stocking shelves at a Wal-Mart in Omaha. Somebody loves him, too. Someone has to staff the field hospitals. Someone has to supply food and materiel. Someone has to teach.

I drive a car on public roads. I went to school in this country for free. I drink the water that comes out of my tap and partake of the benefits of living in this society.

Freedom really isn’t free. If my neighbors and friends are going away to fight and die, am I going to be able to sit here happily and live off the fat of the land in blissful ignorance while they suffer?

No.

Eureka Springs, AR @ 73

Does anyone think if a draft were in full force now we would not be in the same or worse quagmire with the exception of a three to six hundred thousand additional troops in the mix, thousands more deaths, tens of thousands more wounded, active engagement with Iran and another half a trillion or more in debt?

At least another few hundred thousand Iraqis alone would be dead and countless Iranians. Cheney would probably have already nuked North Korea in retaliation for their tests.

Impeachment would be complete by now and the Hague would be building a new wing.

I’ll answer that, ES. I think if there was a draft on, we would not be fighting in Iraq. When General Shinseki told Rumsfeld we’d need several hundred thousand troops to do the job, Rumsfeld shitcanned the guy, because Rumsfeld knew that wouldn’t sell.

We’re in Iraq, because it was easy for these clowns to lie us into it, using fear (terrorists in your bedroom!!!), and the fact that just about nobody here had to sacrifice anything. Heck, have some tax cuts!

Charlie Rangel isn’t stupid. We won this election, it’s time to seize the moment.

conservative “War-Blogger” Gina Cobb

what does the warblogger warble auger?

punaise @ 98

conservative “War-Blogger” Gina Cobb

what does the warblogger warble auger?

More garbled agar.

Charlie Rangel has done us the great service of starting this discussion! a discussion that has needed to be held for a very long time…

g’ night, pups…

TRex … You seem like a smart fellow: But you can’t seem to see the forest through the cliches

Do you really think, at this point in the history of our oil-thirsty empire, you’d be fighting anything other than imperial wars?

jayt @
5

I love what Rangel’s doing, but as the father of an eighteen year old son – well….

You better lose that sense of entitlement.

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 97

Charlie Rangel isn’t stupid. We won this election, it’s time to seize the moment.

I think I’d rather we seized the moment with a re-write of the GI Bill: real medical care, a revamped VA and college payments that reflect the costs of actually going to college.

Peak is whats driveing this show…what is lacking is the general knowledge that the 4 major feilds that supply way to much of our lives are in decline…and set for a “cliff event” in the next year or 2….its not not politics..it life or death of what cheney called the non-negoiatible way of life check out the latest science/those who KNOW whats happening @www.the oil drum.com….Th truth wont free you..it will ruin a lot of sleep…but you will have a eye up on the rest of the pack

TRex @96- I am no longer a free person if I am killing innocents against my will.

Hypocrisy is only in place if one thinks the war is just and they avoid participation it.

Draft or no.

ifthethunderdontgetya- If the draft were in place prior to 9-11? I don’t think Bush or Cheney would have been deterred. Perhaps congress would have been although I doubt it.

LOL A Freeper Caller on Mike Malloy’s AAR Radio Show!! “Freedum Isn’t Free”mp3 http://www.whiterosesociety.org/Malloy.html
It’s towards the bottom of the page In this section
“A Trip Down Memory Lane”

A Collection of some of the very best of the Mike Malloy Show, as engineered by the inestimable Spitfire!
& Great Thread TRex!!

TRex –

I completely understand your position. And you’re absolutely right that none of us is worth any more than some kid stocking shelves. If my country really needed defending, of course my son would go, and I’d be like so many mothers right now, worried, praying, hoping to see my son home safe, and refusing to admit any other possibility.

The thing is, we all know this is Chimpy’s vanity war (war for oil, spreading democracy, showing up Dad, avenging Dad, etc. etc. etc., whatever). It was sickeningly wrong from the start, and the fact that they’ve screwed it up from jump street doesn’t justify throwing more bodies at the problem just to save face for that idiot in the White House. I don’t want anyone’s child to be a part of this horrible mess. But when you and my kid go marching off to this war, the rich and well-connected will still make sure that their little darlings are safe and sound back here.

For that matter, if my country really needed defending, I’d be right there. I’ve shot the M-1 rifle in the military match course competitively for a number of years and am right deedy with it, so I’d have a leg up on most recruits right there.

Patrick 4/4 @ 103

ifthethunderdontgetya @ 97

Charlie Rangel isn’t stupid. We won this election, it’s time to seize the moment.

I think I’d rather we seized the moment with a re-write of the GI Bill: real medical care, a revamped VA and college payments that reflect the costs of actually going to college.

Exactly. Charlie Rangel isn’t stupid. And scare the entitlement out of anyone, good.

What CatStaff said.

(I’m pretty good with a pitchfork)

I have a 16 year old son. Now do you understand why I’m in New Zealand? Besides the educational value of having him really live in another culture and see another perspective, I wanted him out of the potential grasp of the war machine.

And even so, I see the value of service (I did nearly two years of service with the Mennonite church when young. I taught, worked with street kids, and ran daycamps for disabled). Worth every minute of it for me. And I think it would be valuable for citizenship. Why must that sort of service come with guns attached?

I have 2 brothers who are ex-marines,and have the same attitude…when they are comeing over the hills of tillamook,my .308 will be there…when its HERE! and not to steal some arabs oil

BushCo = Marshmallow men

Eureka Springs, AR @ 105

TRex @96- I am no longer a free person if I am killing innocents against my will.

Hypocrisy is only in place if one thinks the war is just and they avoid participation it.

Draft or no.

ifthethunderdontgetya- If the draft were in place prior to 9-11? I don’t think Bush or Cheney would have been deterred. Perhaps congress would have been although I doubt it.

I don’t think the chattering classes would have gone along. Certainly not this long. And the proof, again, is in the pudding. The Cheeto-american war bloggers, and their Faux News sympathisers, are against it.

You want an example of a cheap political gesture? TANG AWOL McChimpy prancing around on a carrier deck. How many lives has that stunt cost us, thanks to the impressionable chattering class?

And now Charlie Rangel says, O.K. if this is a war, like you all right wingers say, let’s have the draft.

Calling them on it.

I don’t want to start a blog war with my fellow progressive/hippie/liberal americans. So good night.

Public service for all is a wonderful notion. Republicans will never support that and help the lower income folks have equal chance for education and healthcare.

Draft for an actual defensive war? Heh, won’t be needed due to overwhelming support. Unless gun control laws have been enacted and noone knows how to use them anymore.

TRex my friend, you rock. Haven’t made it through the comments yet but wanted to tell you this piece was superb. Puts Nitrus in my veins as I get back into active communications again this week. My first simple post in ten days as I sit to start a big one for tomorrow. Swing by FDL for a dose of carnivore-simple bullshit-free logic and find you firing on all cylinders. Right up there with Kieth O’s bullshit-free lesson tonight.

I Can’t wait to go read the fire in the comment thread. And provide some good links to fuel it. It’s been an amazing two weeks. And what else did I miss in the world lately? :)

How’s everyone else tonight?

I am an excellent shot. I used to hold the title in my age group in Georgia for single shot .22 marksmanship (ages 16-18). I have always wondered what it would be like to fire one of those high-powered sniper rifles.

But to tell you the truth, I would probably end up in tactics and intelligence like my dad was or radio ops like my grandfather.

It’s odd how reactionary legislation such as NAFTA and so-called welfare reform — and now a proposal for a military draft arrive — inside Democratic Party Trojan horses.

This where Gore Vidal is dead on accurate, once again, in saying: We have one political party in this country, with two wings — both War Parties.

Nice liberals need to recover from their Saving Private Ryan, fighting-the-good-war fantasies.

Exactly who will we be fighting now? The rest of world is under no illusions regarding what nation is the greatest threat to the peace of the world … Hint: Its people will be stuffing their overweight bellies, devouring a large, hormone-infuse flightless bird this week, as they celebrate the genocide that their ancestors leveled upon the original inhabitants of the land.

NZ Expat,
I had a very nice encounter with some Mennonites here in Ohio. They put our roof on, and invited us to their church.

My sons were very impressed with them too, and our little barky dog didn’t bark at them—not once.

Rangel’s proposal is excellent because it has no support, which is the point.

Every time McCain or Lieberman talk about more troops, Rangel’s demonstration highlights both the fact that they are wrong and that they are not credible people since they are advocating something that they cannot achieve. It also shows how far out of the mainstream these extremists are, despite the fact that the Kewl Kidz want to convince us that they reside in the “center.”

It’s brilliant.

Dover Bitch @ 119

Rangel’s proposal is excellent because it has no support, which is the point.

Every time McCain or Lieberman talk about more troops, Rangel’s demonstration highlights both the fact that they are wrong and that they are not credible people since they are advocating something that they cannot achieve. It also shows how far out of the mainstream these extremists are, despite the fact that the Kewl Kidz want to convince us that they reside in the “center.”

It’s brilliant.

Exactement!!

Hey, DB!

people live like this? a sampling of the rules of the Pensacola Christian College, courtesy of the General:

DRESS CODE:
…
Multi-colored polo shirts and khakis are acceptable “afternoon” dress (see the “Who’s Who” section of the latest yearbook for examples); note, though, that this also applies to Saturday mornings, in which case the morning is converted to “afternoon” for clothing purposes. Sunday afternoon, though, is not “afternoon” for clothing purposes.
…
DORM RULES:…

You may not put up a picture of unmarried people in physical contact unless they are “little kids.” (these are sold in the bookstore).

You may not wipe “boogers” on the wall. This is being cracked down on.

…
SOCIAL INTERACTION
…

There is to be no physical contact between students of the opposite sex, except perhaps on some “dating outings,” where hand-holding games are played.

go read the whole thing; it will leave your head spinning.

Hey TRex, love the snark tonight. We’re on the same wavelength.

I wasn’t taken by O’Donnell though. I wrote earlier:

After all, it’s not an accident that the Constitution puts control of the military in civilian hands and does not list service in the military as a requirement for elective office.

Abraham Lincoln never served a day in his life and he presided over the bloodiest conflict in American History. DB, for one, is pleased with the results.

Obviously, anybody who calls the war in Iraq (or elsewhere) an “existential threat” and is still unwilling to make any real sacrifices in order to win it is a hypocrite and, quite frankly, an immoral piece of crap.

What do you think?

See the baby-faced MP in the white helmet on the left of the picture?

That’s my dad.

While standing next to Herman Goering for months on end, he heard the worst that people are capable of doing “in service” to their country.

In the best of causes, young people are ordered to do the unspeakable as part of their national service. Even more than the sacrifice of their lives, that is the sacrifice we ask them to make. I have a very hard time accepting that we haven’t learned something from that sacrifice, that we can so easily contemplate putting young lives in the hands of, at best, puffed-up Rotarians, and at worst, outright war criminals.

Dover Bitch @ 119

Rangel’s proposal is excellent because it has no support, which is the point.

Every time McCain or Lieberman talk about more troops, Rangel’s demonstration highlights both the fact that they are wrong and that they are not credible people since they are advocating something that they cannot achieve. It also shows how far out of the mainstream these extremists are, despite the fact that the Kewl Kidz want to convince us that they reside in the “center.”

It’s brilliant.

Exactly. If someone’s peeing in their pants because of it, all the better. And it opens the door, albeit slightly, to talk about veteran’s actual benefits, which have been cut. A worthwhile tactic.

See the baby-faced MP in the white helmet on the left of the picture?

That’s my dad.

Coolest.

Family photo.

EVER!!!!

Wow.

Those headset things they have on are sooooo Buck Rogers!

Patrick, if it’s alright with you, I may use that photo for a post sometime soon.

Patrick 4/4 @ 124

See the baby-faced MP in the white helmet on the left of the picture?

That’s my dad.

While standing next to Herman Goering for months on end, he heard the worst that people are capable of doing “in service” to their country.

In the best of causes, young people are ordered to do the unspeakable as part of their national service. Even more than the sacrifice of their lives, that is the sacrifice we ask them to make. I have a very hard time accepting that we haven’t learned something from that sacrifice, that we can so easily contemplate putting young lives in the hands of, at best, puffed-up Rotarians, and at worst, outright war criminals.

Dude, that’s amazing.

Dover Bitch @ 122

Hey TRex, love the snark tonight. We’re on the same wavelength.

I wasn’t taken by O’Donnell though. I wrote earlier:

After all, it’s not an accident that the Constitution puts control of the military in civilian hands and does not list service in the military as a requirement for elective office.

Abraham Lincoln never served a day in his life and he presided over the bloodiest conflict in American History. DB, for one, is pleased with the results.

Obviously, anybody who calls the war in Iraq (or elsewhere) an “existential threat” and is still unwilling to make any real sacrifices in order to win it is a hypocrite and, quite frankly, an immoral piece of crap.

What do you think?

We are clearly sharing a brain now.

TRex @
126

See the baby-faced MP in the white helmet on the left of the picture?

That’s my dad.

Coolest.

Family photo.

EVER!!!!

Wow.

Those headset things they have on are sooooo Buck Rogers!

It’s pretty weird. I remember seeing some documentary about Nuremberg when I was a kid (I think Richard Baseheart narrated it) and my mom said “there’s your dad.”

Not what you want to hear in a picture full of Nazis.

TRex @ 117

I am an excellent shot. I used to hold the title in my age group in Georgia for single shot .22 marksmanship (ages 16-18). I have always wondered what it would be like to fire one of those high-powered sniper rifles.

swoon

TRex @ 127

Patrick, if it’s alright with you, I may use that photo for a post sometime soon.

I’d be honored.

C&L will have the video of the Scarborough/O’Donnell shouting match later.
(per John)

Patrick 4/4 @ 130

Not what you want to hear in a picture full of Nazis.

Ha! Excellent photo.

Patrick 4/4 @ 131

TRex @ 127

Patrick, if it’s alright with you, I may use that photo for a post sometime soon.

I’d be honored.

Look at their expressions. The soldier to the right of your dad looks like he’s recoiling. I think they must have been looking at or hearing about something really awful when the shutter opened.

Wow.

That photo is worth a million words.

cool photo, indeed.

119

RE: Rangel’s proposal is excellent because it has no support, which is the point.

Every time McCain or Lieberman talk about more troops, Rangel’s demonstration highlights both the fact that they are wrong and that they are not credible people since they are advocating something that they cannot achieve. It also shows how far out of the mainstream these extremists are, despite the fact that the Kewl Kidz want to convince us that they reside in the “center.”

Yes. Brilliant.

And it certainly won’t beget any cynicism regarding the belief systems of the liberal elite among the laboring classes in the heartland.

Dover Bitch @ 120

Rangel’s proposal is excellent because it has no support, which is the point.

Every time McCain or Lieberman talk about more troops, Rangel’s demonstration highlights both the fact that they are wrong and that they are not credible people since they are advocating something that they cannot achieve. It also shows how far out of the mainstream these extremists are, despite the fact that the Kewl Kidz want to convince us that they reside in the “center.”

It’s brilliant.

Another recommendation for re-defining options in the mainstream:

1. Go big
2. Go long
3. Go home
4. Go home NOW.

Let’s be sure #4 gets debated. NOW. Troops home NOW.

TRex. Have you seen the movie Sir, No Sir! yet?

The link has the full movie on low-rez, but it’s a great movie if you haven’t caught it. 45 minutes of superb documentary chronicling Veterans and Active Duty military’s role in exposing the senseless destruction and wanton waste of life the Vietnam war had become towards the end. The underground GI Press that brought truth of the war home to the bases and military towns around the nation by the returning veterans of all stripes.

Fascinating stuff and very poignant to both your article and K.O’s Comments tonight.

TRex. Have you seen the movie Sir, No Sir! yet?

For a brief and terrible moment I thought you were asking me about some kind of military S&M film…

TRex @ 135

Patrick 4/4 @ 131

TRex @ 127

Patrick, if it’s alright with you, I may use that photo for a post sometime soon.

I’d be honored.

Look at their expressions. The soldier to the right of your dad looks like he’s recoiling. I think they must have been looking at or hearing about something really awful when the shutter opened.

Wow.

That photo is worth a million words.

Just to give a weird bit of perspective, my dad was 19 when that picture was taken. I’m 45 now.

Great post tonight Trex. Wouldn’t you love to be there when Gentle Ben Domenench (sp?) gets his draft notice? Or any of the rightards from Little Green Footballs?

Dover Bitch >

Rangel’s proposal is excellent because it has no support, which is the point…shows how far out of the mainstream these extremists are, despite the fact that the Kewl Kidz want to convince us that they reside in the “center.”

It’s brilliant.

Charlie knows war (Korea), knows EXACTLY what he is doing & is not a fool. Very clever move on his part because he knows it will never happen but he can show, in public, the posers for what they are.

I believe in national service for all, but not forced military service.

[FYI I was in uniform 1965-1969 (I enlisted) & know some of those folks on The Wall - make what you will of that]

And Adlai has a few words to say

“Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime.” – Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.

Apparently, tomorrow is Election Day.

Washington Post White House reporter Peter Baker will be online Tuesday, Nov. 21, at noon ET to discuss the latest on races around the country at the start of election day.

Chatting at 11 tomorrow actually. I think Peter Baker’s been traveling with the Preznit.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01180.html

TeddySanFran @ 144

Apparently, tomorrow is Election Day.

Washington Post White House reporter Peter Baker will be online Tuesday, Nov. 21, at noon ET to discuss the latest on races around the country at the start of election day.

Chatting at 11 tomorrow actually. I think Peter Baker’s been traveling with the Preznit.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01180.html

Is there maybe a timewarp? Maybe its a run-off election in Louisiana or something.

TRex @ 140

TRex. Have you seen the movie Sir, No Sir! yet?

For a brief and terrible moment I thought you were asking me about some kind of military S&M film…

No this is the “liberal media” version of said title. I believe the other one was privately-financed and produced in the Valley about a Campus Republican Frat Initiation Pledge Week. (small distribution)

Well, apparently my memory is still good:

Specials for United Artists: Trial at Nuremberg (1964) (TV)

Directed by
Marshall Flaum

Writing credits
Marshall Flaum

Genre: Documentary

Credited cast:
Richard Basehart …. Narrator

That photo is exactly why, in a post-Nuremberg world, we should be resisting a draft not supporting one.

Wow, totally OT, but I now have to say that I am taking my hat off to Britney Spears. I want her lawyer doing our foreign policy. Remember that sex tape that K-Fed is dangling out there as a threat? Well, the Britney camp has responded by saying that if anybody buys it from him then she’ll just post it for free on MySpace.

Now, normally, I don’t pay attention to this stuff, but that is one cold, brilliant move. It means no one will give that idiot a penny for the tape, now, because it would automatically be worthless.

Machiavelli would be proud. That’s some sharp maneuvering.

wow p4/4 amazing foto ty for sharing that.

punaise >

cool photo, indeed.

Indeed, thanks much for sharing it

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” – H. L. Mencken

And Charlie gets to take over Dead-eye Deferment Dick’s office…just too scrumptious for words.

daCascadian @ 143

“Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime.” – Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.

Outstanding.

Here’s to Wilfred Owen:

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.

TRex @ 149

Wow, totally OT, but I now have to say that I am taking my hat off to Britney Spears. I want her lawyer doing our foreign policy. Remember that sex tape that K-Fed is dangling out there as a threat? Well, the Britney camp has responded by saying that if anybody buys it from him then she’ll just post it for free on MySpace.

Now, normally, I don’t pay attention to this stuff, but that is one cold, brilliant move. It means no one will give that idiot a penny for the tape, now, because it would automatically be worthless.

Machiavelli would be proud. That’s some sharp maneuvering.

Damn thats cold. No shit, send her strategists to negotiate with the insurgents in Iraq now! That’s KGB devious!

TeddySanFran @ 150

wow p4/4 amazing foto ty for sharing that.

My pleasure (sort of).

It always gives me a bit of whiplash whenever i run across one of those in a magazine or newspaper. This was a big year for it with the 60th anniversary.

TRex, K-Fed is “playing” Hollywood H.O.B. on Wednesday.

Dear Speaker Pelosi-Haskert…

You’re starting to act like your Republican Counter Part… Already, and you are not even sworn in yet.

The Dems did NOT get a Mandate… you got A CHANCE to show what you would do!

Rangle’s plan to offer a DRAFT resolution is a reasonable one, and in light of the current force condition, the only viable path to rebuilding our over-worn soldiers!

You said, “We’ll have DEBATE & Discussion… then we’ll VOTE”… What’s with the “NO!” to his idea? You call that DEBATE?

If your going to take the DLC path… YOU WILL NOT BE in office for LONG!

Put your mouth where your WORDS have been!

Sincerely,
from a 56yo ‘i’NDEPENDENT that helped change the congress… and CAN & WILL CHANGE it AGAIN, if necessary!

Remember R-E-P-R-E-S-E-N-T-A-T-I-V-E… means just that… you are supposed to represent what WE WANT.. NOT what you WANT!

Actually, I’m not sure I get it. They both have copies of their sex tape? How many copies did they make?

Dover Bitch @ 158

Actually, I’m not sure I get it. They both have copies of their sex tape? How many copies did they make?

He was actually a gentleman and let her copy first.

Dover Bitch @ 158

Actually, I’m not sure I get it. They both have copies of their sex tape? How many copies did they make?

or is there only one taped extravaganza?

TeddySanFran @ 160

Dover Bitch @ 158

Actually, I’m not sure I get it. They both have copies of their sex tape? How many copies did they make?

or is there only one taped extravaganza?

Maybe she got the master shot and he got B roll.

Dover Bitch >

…How many copies did they make?

Hmmm, maybe the answer is in one of those Adult Video stores around town

“There is no such thing as inaccuracy in a photograph. All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth.” – Richard Avedon

TRex, good on ya and good on Charlie Rangel. As others have said up thread, Charlie is calling them on their bullshit.

Either this IS a war or it is not. No more having it both way.

disclosure: mother of daughter turning 18 next month – daughter wants to join Air Force. My career Navy father – rest his soul – would say at least it is not the Army.

TRex @ 149

Perhaps, it’s not exactly OT … for our soldiers must kill and be killed to protect our unalienable right to the pursuit of obviousness.

TeddySanFran @ 160

Dover Bitch @ 158

Actually, I’m not sure I get it. They both have copies of their sex tape? How many copies did they make?

or is there only one taped extravaganza?

Imagine the product-placement opportunities.

Imagine the product-placement opportunities.

Small products and plastics?

Imagine the product-placement opportunities.

I would so rather not.

FedEx: the money(’s) shot

Patrick 4/4 @ 165

Imagine the product-placement opportunities.

Let’s don’t, but say that we did, mmmkay? I do not really find her that attractive honestly. More plastic than a DVD factory scares me off.

Well, if we’re not entertaining the compulsory service option, let’s bring the troops home NOW. I mean for this Christmas, every single one. Everybody in Iraq home for Christmas, and put a news blackout over Iraq.

“and the Devil take the hindmost” has been running through my mind lately.

Good night, gang.

See you tomorrow night!

Don’t buy my sex tape until you make sure I won’t give it to you for free!

I thought of E.T. when I saw this news item

“Linny Pacillo, one of two sisters who used humor to fight the Anchorage, Alaska, parking authority, has died at the age of 47.

Pacillo and her sister, Susan Pacillo, dressed in pink tutus and black tights to become the “parking fairies” who wedged coins into meters. Their campaign in the 1990s helped inspire a 1997 referendum that limited handing out parking tickets to sworn police officers…” -source

“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact….Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.” – newshog@gmail.com

Teddy,

Kevin Drum has a couple things you’d find interesting. First there’s this:

YES, THINGS CAN GET WORSE….After running through all the options available to us in Iraq and acknowledging that they have little chance of succeeding, Suzanne Nossel briefly raises a point that gets nowhere near enough attention:

9. If we don’t begin a planned exit, there’s a good chance we’ll find ourselves in an unplanned one — It’s surprising that by now we haven’t experienced the Iraqi equivalent of the 1983 bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut or the dragging of a corpse of an American soldier through the streets of Mogadishu a decade later. But it seems likely that that day will come.

Then, there’s this:

IRAQ TO AMERICA: GET OUT…. PIPA has released a new poll of Iraqi attitudes toward the U.S. occupation, and the takeaway is very, very clear: they want us to leave. 74% of Shiites and 91% of Sunnis want us to leave within a year (the number is 80% for Shiites in Baghdad).

OT… The taser cop at UCLA shot a homeless man in 2003, and was earlier nearly dismissed in connection with an alleged assault on a student.

Suzanne @ 174

OT… The taser cop at UCLA shot a homeless man in 2003, and was earlier nearly dismissed in connection with an alleged assault on a student.

From the article:

While he would not directly talk about why he used the Taser on the student, he said a videotape of any arrest doesn’t necessarily tell the whole story.

“If someone is resisting, sometimes it’s not going to look pretty taking someone into custody,” he said. “If you have to use some force, it’s not going to look pretty. That’s the nature of this job.”

What a prick. He was using that taser as a cattleprod. The kid was limp and in cuffs. This guy has no shame whatsoever.

I have a few comments.

Bush signed his torture bill during the anniversary of the Nuremberg Trials.

The DCCC is now involved in Ciro Rodriguez’s race against Republican Henry Bonilla in TX-23. Details are available on the frontpage of Daily Kos.

I am happy Rangel tried to neutralize McCain’s call for more troops in Iraq.

I hope this helps. But please consider donating to Ciro Rodriguez’s campaign here.

And, taking his cue, we now freely torture people in libraries, on the street, in people’s yards, in police stations, on military bases, on ships in the sea, in our prisons, in secret prisons, in other people’s prisons… because we’re just that type of country. Oh, and Bush just finished up with the Chinese, where he (briefly) registered his annual symbolic and utterly ineffective protest over that country’s human rights record. Let the electricity flow… I just watched the the UCLA tape again, and now I have to go throw up somewhere.

Louisiana Girl @ 176

I have a few comments.

Bush signed his torture bill during the anniversary of the Nuremberg Trials.
here.

Last comment of the night: Sadly, the insular, circle jerk I’ve witnessed here … is why I swore, in the aftermath of John Kerry centrist debacle in 2004 — after voting Democratic since my first vote, at eighteen, for Jimmy Carter — I was done with the Democratic Party.

I’ve written this on the subject:

http://www.informationclearing…..e15480.htm

“I believe, at this late hour, the second best thing that could come to pass in our crumbling republic is for the total destruction of the Democratic Party — and then from its ashes to rise a party of true progressives.

Now, I believe the best thing that could happen for our country would be for the leaders of The Republican Party — out of a deep sense of shame (as if they even possessed the capacity for such a thing) regarding the manner they have disgrace their country and themselves — to commit seppuku (the act of ritual suicide practiced by disgraced leaders in feudalist Japan) on national television.

“Because there’s no chance of that event coming to pass, I believe the dismantling of the Democratic Party, as we know it, is in order. It is our moribund republic’s last, best hope — if any is still possible.

Regarding this, I hope I’m proven to be dead-ass, Flat Earth Theory, WarrenCommission wrong.”

Sadly, from what I’ve witness since the midterm elections — and here — in the comment section of an allegedly progressive Democratic Party blog — I don’t think I will be.

Finally, you guys ignore the opinions of independents and true progressive at your peril.

TRex,

Great essay! Good of you to point out one of our closest allies uses a system similar to the one in Rep. Rangel’s preliminary proposal.

hey ET wind any calmer?

Suzanne @
180

hey ET wind any calmer?

Yeah, it is calming, but the barometer is still going up. I’m exhausted from organizing and conducting my band’s Fall concert tonight. My left shoulder is beyond ready for surgery and we had to change venues three days before the performance, so I’ve been busy. And meeting new friends.

Ouch, ET. Do you get to rest up that shoulder now the Fall Concert is over or is there more on your schedule?
BTW, I am presuming the Fall Concert went well.

I actually do think that our country could benefit from a true national service program. Not the military, perhaps.. but some type of unifying and leveling experience, working on America street’s and in her communities with a cadre of diverse peers. Clinton had something of such a vision, if I remember correctly. Mandatory Americorps would, I think, produce in our young a better sense of what it is to be an American citizen. The military could be an option, among many.. but domestic service could be the emphasis.

I said this before

when you are talking about war everyone needs skin if you are to make a valualble decision

period

when the president has the nerve to say;

“everyone serves, my children will be the first to go, nd your will go too”

ehrn yhr vice presient hand his wife says “lynn will be on the front line you yours might be asked to go too”

THAT’S WHEN YOU KNOW YOU HAVE A JUSTIFIED WAR

period

we need the draft bill, no exclusions, no deferments, everyone serves

THIS WILL KEEP AMERICA FROM PROSECUTING WAR

when the suckos in the PNAC tell you “we are not doing this for profit, the proof is or children oare on the front line”

THAT’S WHEN YOU CAN BELIEVE THEY THEIR “PROGJECT” IS FOR JUSTICE INSTEAD OF PROFIT

our new slogan

IF YOU ARE FOR STAY THE COURSE YOU HAVE TO PUT YOUR SKIN IN THE GAME

bing…our children come home

shoot, I did that with internet explorer and can’t go back and spell check

could the gramma fairy e fix the typo’s in my previous post please, I would really appreciate it

Fuck the draft.

What if Republicans take the bluff? And it’s instituted.

Then Iraq WILL become our war. Our fault.

I’m old enough to know guys with rotten “lottery” numbers who had “hunting accidents to the foot”, car accidents, drug ODs, etc, etc. to get out of the draft.

I’m old enough to be married to a guy who had a low number — 26 (no doubt he was going to VietNam) — and still turns a whiter shade of pale when he talks about it. So, he almost killed himself getting his 5′10″ frame underweight. Man, did he get underweight. 112 pounds.

Morris Sheppard @
91

It’s a good thing I’m too old and out of shape. Hell, my kids are too old and out of shape, and my grandbabies are all less than four.

But I was young and fine condition in the 60’s and 70’s so I remember well the psychology of the draft. It did more than anything else to motivate youth and promote anti-war sentiment and turn a generation political. It also fostered the great American Cultural Revolution, which while eventually being subsumed by the so-called traditionalists, who hate us still (they were jealous because we had so much more fun), did more to change this country for the better than anything else.

If you want to see young people actually care about the world they live in, protest its wrongs and get out and vote, a draft is as good a way as any. That said, I hate the idea of a draft. Did then. Do now. But Rangel has a point.

GREAT COMMENT

1,338 DYAZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Trex and theFirepup Patriots:

Charley Rangle is WAAAY out aheade of everyone on this issue. Not only will it be impossible to increase force deployment without a draft which pretty well forcloses the “go long” or “go big” but Rangle understands that any social program to underwrite education or training or income supoort is domed to failure in this post welfare world unless it is tied tomilitary service and the GI Bill. The conversation has started and by the time we are at the point of taking care of all those returning vets, the GI Bill is gunna be the starting point. In addition, a draft is gunna be the only way we can insure a reliable continuing force pool to rebuild the ready forces that have been broken by these insane motherfuckers and the GI Bill will be part of the trade off for service. A draft all but insures that there will be no more “all volunteer” standing force and no easy way to get our troops pinned down in hell again.

Charley Ragnle is one of the best politicians of the last 100m years and we’re all gunna be glad that he’s on our side when the political shit hits the fan in the next few years.

KEEP THE FAITH, PASS THE AMMUNITION and don’t piss in yer own shoes!!

Oilfieldguy @
52

johnSwifty @ 39

Why would I want to kill anyone?

Two possible answers:

They disagree about what happens to you after you die, so they kill each other.

Or the Bushco Answer;

They hate freedom.

Or more directly – same as any other war: property and lifestyle (that’s lifestyle as in wealth, not ideology).

Good morning, pups. Today’s NYT columnists, from behind the firewall:

http://select.nytimes.com/2006…..amp;emc=th
Nicholas Kristof, “Boy’s Wish: Kill Them All.”

http://select.nytimes.com/2006…..amp;emc=th
Thomas B. Edsall, “Same Old Party.”

Mr. Edsall’s first line, to whet your appetites: “Last Friday, the Republicans gave the Democrats a gift that will keep on giving: Roy Blunt of Missouri.”

Now I’m going to get another cup of tea and read the post and comments. Have a wonderful day.

It is totally unfair that these great discussions occur in the middle of the goddamn night!

Mornin’.

We could have our own great discussions, raven. Let’s start by discussing which kind soul will make coffee this morning.

Imm you here? Sent you an email.

2 egrChildren come from afar tomorrow! Happy mom. The younger one surpasses my knowledge of politics…scary.

Waiting for the votes to be counted:
NC-08 Kissell — maybe by tomorrow, => recount
OH-02 Wulsin — this week?
OH-15 Kiljoy — next week?
LA runoff
TX runoff
FL-13 lawsuit? 18,000 missing votes

Posted about how to fight back against seasonal affective disorder over at egregiousBlog.

Highlights:

Embracing your lethargy

Finding humor in small humiliations

Being more “out” about being mentally ill.

Comments welcome.

Louisiana Girl @ 176

I have a few comments.

Bush signed his torture bill during the anniversary of the Nuremberg Trials.

you know what?

while bush doesn’t have doesn’t have the mental facilities to do this on purpose his puppet masters surely do.

fascists are very symbolic you know

I think it’s about time someone did a nice piece on old prescott

no?

oops, posting from an old computer, forgot to change my name, me to me>>>perris

Lateto the gate as usual, or actually early (post 5:00 a.m. here in MN), but my 2 cents –

Personally, there should be a draft for military OR community service. Step right up and take your pick. Credit should be given for college credits and when they get out, preference should be given for jobs.

As a veteran who was a volunteer, I can say – the return of the draft would be terrible. The quality of the military has increased a great deal since the end of the draft that I cannot imagine returning. Here is a better idea – simply ask people who are not veterans why they are not.

GrandmaJ @ 198

Lateto the gate as usual, or actually early (post 5:00 a.m. here in MN), but my 2 cents –

Personally, there should be a draft for military OR community service. Step right up and take your pick. Credit should be given for college credits and when they get out, preference should be given for jobs.

no credit for college kids, that gives the wealthy an automatic deferment

and everyone serves, even the disabled, everyone…no deferments

and politicians family do not get to choose community service like the peace corps

if you are a politician and you have a family member in the piece corp, even a disenfranchised child from a previous marrage, you are excluded from voting on anything that concerns war

and members of the piece corp serve on the front line in some capacity, medical assistant, housing, red cross.

right there on the front line

Deep Thought @ 199

As a veteran who was a volunteer, I can say – the return of the draft would be terrible. The quality of the military has increased a great deal since the end of the draft that I cannot imagine returning. Here is a better idea – simply ask people who are not veterans why they are not.

draft everyone to community service of some sort, extra pay and early retirement for those that go to one of the armed branches.

for instance, peace corps=6 year program, full pay

armed forces= 4 year program 150 percent pay
best of all worlds

I noticed a request for volunteers for county draft boards a couple of years ago, and wondered wtf? Signed up, got appointed, and here’s my notes from draft board training:

1. Nationwide, our county draft boards are now fully staffed and ready to go fully operational, able to send draftees into the military on just 45 days notice. No congressional action required – only a unilateral “Presidential Declaration of National Emergency.”

2. Training sessions have concentrated on techniques used to interview those applying for Conscientious Objector or hardship status.
- C.O. status will be incredibly hard to achieve, and will likely result in simply being shoved up in the front lines,in uniform, but without a gun.
- Hardship status will be just as hard, requiring objective proof that the hardship on your dependents will be greater than those expected of any other dependents.

3. “Physical, mental, and moral fitness” will be determined
in the initial military induction interview, and will be the sole prerogative of the military.
Meaning the sergeant gets to decide whether or not you’re REALLY gay, and the whole
“don’t ask / don’t tell” mechanism stays inside the military justice system. There are about
22 classification areas, and only 6 of those are left to the discretion of the local boards.
- – and that’s only if the registrant makes a timely appeal, properly describes his grounds, AND proves his case to the satisfaction of a majority of the panel.

- – Essentially, the registrant has to quickly pick his hoop, and then jump through it successfully.
In the CO area, this is going to be tough, because the guy (no gals, so Barbie and Jenna don’t have to worry yet) has to show he couldn’t even provide medical care or non-combat service if he’s going for full CO status.

The non-combatant status is easier to prove – but it means you go in for active duty instead of the alternative service option provided to CO’s.

4. Educational deferment: Registrant can only complete current SEMESTER of advanced education. If a senior,
can finish senior academic year before induction.

5. Family: Nope, not unless you can jump through some very specific hoops regarding dependents’ needs. No automatic deferments for marriage or pregnant spouse or kids. Dick Cheney would have had to serve, regardless of his “other priorities.”

6. Panels are between three and five people, with a quorum of that panel required.

7. It should be noted that this re-activation is apparently not coming from the Defense Department. At least not from the top. I think it has come from the desperation of the people in the Guards and Reserves, simply trying to find ways to achieve goals impossibly large for such a small army.

8. The Selective Service System presently has only 200 or so paid employees nationwide.
They take up less than two floors of their headquarters building in Washington, DC.
Most of their staffing and leadership is coming from National Guard and Reservists from
the Army and Navy, assigned to this service instead of active duty overseas. Because the
civilian aspect has been essentially starved out by minimal funding, there is a fair argument
that it has been taken over by the Reservists.

Mornin’ pups.

Just finished breakfast in the greasy spoon next to the crappy motel wher I am staying.

My waitress looked remarkably like Agnes Moorehead, ripped from the grave. Probably a real looker prior to the Spanish-American war.

She walked across the dining room as though she was tacking into a gale.

Still, with her advanced age, she maintained eight or nine tables, plus the cash register, with no coffee cup left dry.

Great stuff, lady.

Nobody has coffee?

OFG–I’m impressed with the 8-9 tables. Back in my waitress days [shudder] I could do 6 tables max. That was in a truck stop with a lot of to and froing.

egregious @ 205

OFG–I’m impressed with the 8-9 tables. Back in my waitress days [shudder] I could do 6 tables max. That was in a truck stop with a lot of to and froing.

This too is at a truck stop/motel.

Sure, they can go ahead with the draft and wait to see if anyone disagrees with this policy :o

Need to clarify if it’s still Congress’ perogative or if the President can do it alone.

Ok everybody, coffee over at Oilfieldguy’s truck stop this morning!

egregious @ 207

Sure, they can go ahead with the draft and wait to see if anyone disagrees with this policy :o

Need to clarify if it’s still Congress’ perogative or if the President can do it alone.

when the decider does it he will find a way for neo cons to be excluded

he’ll claim “we need our talented young to be educated for the future of america”
a
then he’ll eliminate ALL aid for college and only the wealthy will get this deferment

he will make a signing statement to the regard that he can change the draft according to his interperatation of the national security implications.

then any draft congress passes will get the defermments his puppet masters want

Maybe in the distant future there will be a discussion as to when or whether WAR should be an option. Killing others is not a natural thing for humans except for a (small?) minority but that may be changing.

you know what just occured to me?

if Gore wins the presidency, the neo cons won’t want him to look into voter fraud during his elelction

they alson won’t want people to compare what gore does to what bush did…then people will REALLY hate the president saying things like;

if only the election wasn’t stolen and gore were in charge before 9/11

I think the neo cons realize how much worse the critissm will be if it’s gore that fixes the mess we are in.

in other words, I beleive a Gore presidency is more dangerous then other presidencies

perris @ 211

you know what just occured to me?

if Gore wins the presidency, the neo cons won’t want him to look into voter fraud during his elelction

they alson won’t want people to compare what gore does to what bush did…then people will REALLY hate the president saying things like;

if only the election wasn’t stolen and gore were in charge before 9/11

I think the neo cons realize how much worse the critissm will be if it’s gore that fixes the mess we are in.

in other words, I beleive a Gore presidency is more dangerous then other presidencies

just to clarify, I mean more prone to asasination attempts then oither presidencies

Mornin’ Firedogs,

this waitress has a pot of medium bodied dark roast for y’all

with 30 years (gulp)admin. experience, went back in to restaurant work upon arrival here in the Lone Star Republic as the only way to more closely approximate my Calif. salary – (a potential employer actually offered me $28k to support a CEO with a straight face!)

no cube, no meetings, no missing e mails to keep me up at night and I spend the day talking with folks – and sometimes am lucky enough to encounter a charmer like OFG

fyi egregious – Old ‘Flo’ here gets a big kick outta working circles around her slacker co workers -usually handle about 12 tables per shift – it’s all in the timin’ doncha know *g*

A serious draft proposal on the table would really challenge the stay the course resolve of chicken hawks, the young college republican crowd, upper income parents of fighting age children, & the Ben Shapiro media mutts. It’s a “put up or shut up” conversation that fervid Iraq war supporters have studiously avoided. That being said, the word draft makes me feel ill. I remember people sweating out how high their draft # would be during the Vietnam war & the horror of that whole time period.
I enjoyed the magical thinking discussion on earlier thread. I have used the magical thinking term to describe the policy makers for awhile. It just fits perfectly. We probably all know a magical thinker & how miserable it can be to work with one or have some other dealings with one. The more powerful a position a magical thinker acquires the more serious the consequences. We have a whole white house just loaded with them. It’s no wonder we & the world are in such a mess. The magical thinkers I have had the misfortune to know just do not ever get a clue, they just ratchet up the magic.

1,338 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Firepup Patriots:

For all those tuggin’ on yer forlocks and scratchin’ yer armpits in quandry over Charley Rangle’s draft proposal,please look up at #188.

Charley Rangle is jest one more example of real live, effective politicians who are now in positions to do some good. Nancy Pelosi is another…Henry Waxman is another. We are seein’ the ascension of a cadre of PROFESSIONAL experienced political warriors who are gunna be WAAAAY ahead of most of the rest of us when it comes to policy development and politics.

Rangle’s proposal pre-empts any further discussion of impossible options and begins the discussion of how we rebuild our military as a citizen army to insure that we don’t ever get our kids bogged down in hell again.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION AND DION’T PISS IN YER OWN SHOES!!

over my dead, and i do mean dead, body will my children be required to participate first hand Iraq.
I was in 8th grade when my friends brother’s were being killed in Vietnam.
I rememebr the horror to this day of going to their funerals.

And for what?

diane @ 216

over my dead, and i do mean dead, body will my children be required to participate first hand Iraq.
I was in 8th grade when my friends brother’s were being killed in Vietnam.
I rememebr the horror to this day of going to their funerals.

And for what?

that’s exactly the reason we need a draft, nobody wants their children to risk their lives for a war we know is about nothing but money in the pockets of some nuts in a fraternity of sickos known as the PNAC

Mornin’ all!

Morning gang — new thread, hot and ready…just like my coffee.

Doonsebury is doing a great job this week going after the young Chicken Hawks, who claim they have better things to do with their lives (a la Cheney).

I’m all for a draft–if the fight in Iraq is as important as Bush et al claim, then a draft is warrented (Jenna and Babs, are not exempt). Additionally, all tax cuts are rescinded (we need the $$$ to pour into the war machine).

Rangel is spot on to pursue this. Right now, the kids from his district are the ones who are dying for empire. At least he’s trying to make the sacrifice more equitable across SES.

Kids should start a Conscientious Objector packet NOW. You need at least five letters, statements from adults about your views on violence, written papers, or documents from peace activites you have been involved with. Make two copies of everything. Place one in an envelope, and mail it to yourself. Don’t open it but keep it in a safe place. If there is a draft you can use this letter to document your past peace activities. More info is availible on the Conscientious Objector page at the website (Homepage) below. Draft will start at age 21 and then go down to 18. Women as well as men will be vulnerable to a draft.

Everything PRock says….Let me suggest the reading of Patrick Henry’s selections in the Anti-Federalist Papers.

I agree with PRock’s self-description of “auto-didactic, gasbag monologist” at the link he provided. Little more than shameless diary whoring.

If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. Get your butt in gear and do something besides whine about it, PRock.

T,

As a U.S. Marine I’m a huge supporter of the all volunteer military. It attracts only those who wish to serve and it promotes and facilitates a much more professional armed service. Unfortunately and as you point out, during times of national crisis we do not have the luxury of limiting our options and our force requirements by staying with the all volunteer format. I say anytime a president wishes to employ combat forces for any period beyond 90 days and in a force size greater than an infantry division congress should be required to initiate the draftand begin call ups. This would have the effect of focusing our elected officials minds upon the task at hand as well as have a secondary and salutary effect upon decisions to send our boys and girls in harms way in the first place.