
Out beyond ideas of right doing and wrong doing,
There is a field, I'll meet you there.When the soul lies down in that grass,even the words "you" and "I" do not exist. – Rumi
Afghanistan is sinking back into chaos and repression, especially in the Southern reaches where weak warlords and complicit officials have allowed the Taliban to retake power in exchange for some false sense of temporary stability as the repressive regime consolidates its stranglehold on the region and marches, ever onward, toward the prize of Kabul.
We gave our word when we invaded Afghanistan that the Taliban would be routed and that the repressive regime would be lifted so that young girls in the country would have a life outside layers and layers of forced cloth, so that they could have the hope of an education and some semblence of a potential future that allowed for them to make some choices about its course. We gave our word.
This is what we have today:
Clutching scarves nervously around their faces, the women whispered details of Taliban atrocities taking place in their native Helmand province: A translator's body found in a sack, carved into pieces. A police officer taken hostage, blinded and garroted with wire. A woman shot and hanged by her thumbs.
"All of our lives are in danger now. Our schools are shut, and anyone who works for the government is branded as an infidel," said Ma Gul, 52, a teacher who traveled to the capital this week with 20 other women from Greshk, a town in Helmand 300 miles south, to demand better protection and the removal of weak regional officials.
Gul's woes echo across this country's four southern provinces, where the Taliban insurgency is on a fierce rebound five years after U.S. and Afghan forces toppled the Islamic militia from power in Kabul. Months of aggressive ground combat and NATO airstrikes have failed to halt continuous violence in the south, as well as some sporadic attacks in other parts of the country.
According to a new report by a commission of Afghan and foreign officials, insurgent and terrorist attacks nationwide have increased fourfold in the past year, reaching 600 incidents per month by September and causing 3,700 deaths since January.
The report was issued by a group called the Joint Coordination and Monitoring Board, set up in February under U.N. auspices to promote and measure Afghan government performance. It said the violence threatens to reverse recent economic and political gains across the nation, and has led to a partial or total withdrawal of foreign aid in some provinces.
The Afghanistan that could have been, with its possibilities of hope and justice, is slipping away from us, and like sand grains scouring across the surface of a mirror, it leaves a reflection of our nation's soul — our lack of commitment, the breaking of our word…again…to these people who have lived under constant seige for decades with the promise that America would stand up for them — that has deeply marred flaws.
In Kabul, things are a bit better. The WaPo has done a series of interviews with women there who are enjoying, for the first time in decades, some freedoms that had been long tucked away. Watching these videos and knowing what is going on for their sisters and brothers in the south is wrenching.
Knowing that this could again be the future of Kabul is infuriating.
The BBC News has been closely following the plight of Afghan women in a series of articles since the invasion of that nation after 9/11/01. One of the latest focused on a survey done by an international human rights group regarding some attempt to measure progress — or lack thereof — for Afghan women. And the results are not what one would have hoped, some five years later.
Further, the BBC has embedded a reporter with British troops fighting in the Helmland area against Taliban forces. His diaries of that time period are a bit of a glimpse of the day to day life of British forces and Taliban insurgency. The conditions are harsh, the terrain is difficult, and the Tailban is a formidable force — and they ought to be, considering we trained them in insurgency tactics back in the days of the Soviet invasion — and they ought not ever be underestimated. Tony Blair's recent visit to the war-torn nation has only served to underscore the stretched thin nature of troop levels there — both for Britain and for the US, and the few remaining allies we have left in that nation.
Afghanistan was cast aside by George Bush in his quest to topple Saddam Hussein…for whatever misguided, unsupported and unsubstantiated reasons, Iraq was the goal, and the land that had long served as a haven to al qaeda and Bin Laden's hatred of the West became a forgotten dusty relic for everyone but the troops we left behind there to clean up after our mess. We caught Saddam Hussein well over a year ago, he was convicted last month in a messy show trial…and Iraq is still a mess. Osama Bin Laden and his surrogates are still at large, and Pakistan is reportedly allowing the Taliban fighters who are injured in skirmishes with allied troops in Afghanistan to be treated in safe-houses across the border.
We have lost the battle for the hearts and minds of the peoples of this region by our sheer neglect of the issues that matter to them: decent roads, food, shelter, economic prospects…keeping our word. Any of these things would have done wonders — both in Afghanistan and also in Iraq early on — but because George Bush's Administration failed to adequately plan for the aftermath of the boom-boom portion of the invasion (you know, that point where the really hard work sets in…), we are now reaping a whirlwind of grief in a whole lot of places.
We cannot continue to have a foreign policy that is so haphazard, so piecemeal…so lazy and personally driven. We cannot wage war on the cheap, and we cannot continue this ignorant failure to reach out to experts in the State Department and elsewhere in the government for help on rebuilding and nation-sustaining actions because the civilians running the Pentagon desire their own personal feifdom. These decisions — or the lack thereof — have long-term consequences, for our current world and for the future, as what we do, or undo, ripples outward into the generations to come. And the utter lack of accountability up to now has dire consequences for us all.
Five years after the American-led invasion, the infrastructure still lies shattered, with accusations of international aid being squandered. Meanwhile, the rights of half the population, women, are being steadily clawed back under the burqa.
Afghanistan is also where Western forces, in large numbers, are fighting a war which George Bush and Mr Blair had declared won with the fall of the Taliban regime as they moved the "war on terror" to Iraq.
The Taliban are back with a vengeance now and there is little talk of victory. Nato troops have inflicted heavy casualties on the insurgents, but military commanders talk of reinforcements coming from across the Pakistani border….
We gave our word to Afghanistan. It is time we kept it.
Related posts:
- In Exclusive Interview, Matthew Hoh Says Escalation in Afghanistan a “Terrible Way to Prove a Point”
- White House: We Can’t Fix Our Afghan Strategy Until the Afghan Problem Goes Away
- McChrystal Digs In, Afghan Women Say Get Out
- Whipping the Supplemental: Keep Your Word Rep. Schakowsky!
- Afghanistan: Mission Creep in Action





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Morning folks!
Morning all…sorry for the delay — I had a link problem and had to re-find one of the articles that I’d pulled for this morning. This one took a while…
Christy,
That was poetic. You are turning into the Jonathan Swift of our time.
G’morning Christy & all
We can blame the Taliban all we want for the sad lot of women in Afghanistan; but what it all boils down to is that in EVERY major religion (Jewish, Evangelical, Catholic, Islam, etc. etc.) women are supressed. The task of liberating women is bigger than to slaughter the Taliban monster – it is to change complete religous hypocrisy.
Every Sunday Atrios posts the talking head line up with the instructions to “document the atrocities.” I think that is what Christy and Jane and others are doing, really keeping a record of just how disasterous and destructive this administration has been. Thanks Christy.
I just loved that. It really is beautiful, both the imagery and the word choice. This is more than commentary, it’s literature.
A friend of mine just arrived in Afghanistan for a year-long position with USAID. He’s basically in charge of overseeing an entire province. He’s a good guy, and incredibly brave, I think, to be going there now. I hope he gets the support he’ll need.
lhp at 4 — thanks, I’m feeling contemplative this morning, and deeply saddened by the continual drip, drip, drip of bad news from Afghanistan. They deserve far better from us this second time around. If we abandon them this time, we will have lost an opportunity that comes around only once every five or six generations — and to squander these lives is a waste that I choose not to allow. Truly, the Bush Administration is the worst at long-term thought process that I have ever seen.
To your point about long term thought process, I just read this and it fits perfectly…
Back in September (was it only September?), Marcy announced her plans for a book on the CIA leak investigation, tentatively titled “16 Words,” referring to the infamous State of the Union speech and uranium from Africa. She asked folks here a number of questions, one of which was why this whole mess matters. Here’s what I said then, and it applies just as much here:
Words still matter, and you’ve hit this one on the head, Christy.
It seems that the only promises that matter to Bush are those that folks have made to him, and not those he’s made to others – especially those made on our behalf.
Good writing Christy and sad tale that needs to be retold again and again. We are shamefully guilty of failing to meet our commitments in Afghanistan and in Iraq. I’m afraid we have poisoned our relationship with a whole generation in these countries maybe even two.
How many other countries in the regions will trust the Americans to follow through on their promises now that we have shown them our mettle in these two countries?
A little OT but I went and saw “Shut Up and Sing” by the Dixie Chicks on Saturday and it was awesome. If you need a little kick in the pants to get your mojo back this is the flick to do it. They are totally inspirational in their response to the way the Freepers orchestrated their hit job. Just when you think that the right wing is getting you down just think about how they tried to kill their careers and how they’ve responded.
Oh yeah, and when come people wore FUDC shirts to their concerts Natalie Maines response was to ask them what they had against Dick Cheney.
Thank you, Christy, for covering Afghanistan; it doesn’t get the attention it deserves since the Iraq War sucks all the oxygen out of journalistic coverage these days, so damned horrific in size and scale.
What really, truly bothers me is that conservatives set this in motion decades ago, under their sainted Ronnie’s administration. The Christian fundies demanded support for the “Afghani Freedom Fighters” to stop the godless, creeping Soviet threat, and voila, the Taliban.
The defense against the spread of godless communism yielded Vietnam; they learned nothing from it. They had so little interest in the “Afghani Freedom Fighters” that they ignored their cultural misogyny, although their own misogyny could have blinded them to it.
And now the Afghani women and children are left with the results. This is one place where a sustained presence is a must, although the sustained presence of a moderate Muslim force would be far better. It will take a generational shift before the damage of the Taliban on the psyche of the people can be undone.
Troops and whatnot, sure, but in reality the battle is being lost for the hearths and minds. No alternatives are given but the rule of the gun.
By the way, which country is the biggest exporter of guns, how about personal land-mines…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 10
Truly running government like a modern business — do anything for the results for next quarter (or next election), no matter how much it cannibalizes the business in the longer term.
looseheadprop @
4
Ahh, and glorious it would be. But CHS presents information with too finely chiseled a point for the purposes of satire. Her facts and her research are well laid out but her arguments are made directly rather then the sniping indirectness required of true satire.
Plus, reading her posts makes me so very, very sad; satire will, at the very least, lend a mischievous sense of laughing at the devil, even when the subject matter is most dire.
CSH, does this–has done it–when the mode seems to suit her; but not when the information needs to be addressed directly, and I love her for it.
The conservative mind, also, insists on dealing directly with information, if only to prevaricate. But, here the difference is that the narrow mind of the conservative cannot conceive of satire; though, they think they can. This should be a fun zeppelin to watch plummet.
Afgahanistan has a long history of breaking mighty world powers.
The Russians learned it the hard way, which is why they’re staying out of there this time. Now we’re on that same road. Unlike other countries in the past (and unlike us in Vietnam or Iraq) we have allies in Afghanistan, but even having friends along isn’t enough.
Speaking of allies, the real irony here is that one would think the Brits knew better than to go into Afghanistan without good long-term planning. All one has to do is read Flashman to know what a miserable failure their adventure there turned out to be. But did they learn? Apparently not.
It really is true that those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Well, since when has Bush and Co.™ done what they said they would do? Most of the time, they’ve done quite the opposite.
Little good comes from impure motives and inauspicious beginnings. We wanted a puppet government and a pipeline–not freedom for Afghan women. We’ve used the country as a torture/rendition site and provided so little security that even long-time NGOs left.
We made an ally of Pakistan with threats and bribes and didn’t care (or consider) that funding for the Taliban was being funneled through Pakistan.
But, as for what’s happening now, this is pretty much what the mujahideen did in the `80s–big push by the Soviets, the mujahideen just melted away into the mountains, regrouped and hit later.
It’s crummy to say it, but it’s still true. We started the proxy war with the Soviets that has set off nearly thirty years’ worth of war. We can thank Zbigniew Brzezinski for that one. Carter should have known better, but…. Unfortunately, the Reaganites and Charlie Wilson ran with the idea. Not much thought for Afghan women then, either. Every world power eventually gets sucked into playing the “great game” and tries to subdue central Asia. You’d think eventually we’d figure out that it’s never a good idea. Between the U.S., the Soviets, Pakistan and the Taliban, the country’s now a right awful mess.
montag- great piece you have at your blog too about Iran etc.
http://belaboringtheobvious.bl…..rever.html
Loved the pix too. Blogger comments are down tho or I would have left on there
I love my country dearly, and it breaks my heart when we renege like this – we did it to the Kurds twice.
Afghanistan is where we could have captured the author of 9/11 AND started a process to lessen and hopefully end authoritarianism and oppression in the Arabic world. We had the moral authority and the best wishes of the world to be a change agent in Afghanistan.
Not so in Iraq, where we have lost our moral authority – all we have left is brute, senseless force.
Imagine if we had poured 1/2 of the resources frittered away in the Iraqi debacle into Afghanistan instead.
Imagine other M.E. populations seeing the transformation. Imagine the pressure it would put on M.E. regimes.
For me, it is a toss-up what causes me to loathe Bush most – this, or the shredding of the Constitution.
What the hell, why be nit-picky?
Two-fer!
It’s cold here this morning, and the bird feeder is jam-packed. Am currently watching a nuthatch hang off the roof of the feeder to snag peanut chips amidst the crowd of sparrows and finches. So funny…
About a year ago, I did a pretty in-depth study of Afganistan, its geography, agriculture, history, religion and politics. It is a very complex region, and a couple of good places to start are the CIA World factbook, and Nationmaster statistical database.
CIA World Factbook:
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/af.html
Nationmaster: Age stats
http://www.nationmaster.com/co…..hea-health
Life expectancy at birth = 43.34 years.
sofistic at 24 — that age expectancy stat is not unexpected, but an eye-opener, nonetheless, isn’t it?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 25
Yes, and if you look at the sex difference it is truly depressing. Still, if we were to put enough into the infrastructure, there are some real promising possibilities. It just takes a rational policy approach to do it. Hopefully, that is in the future for them and us.
sofistic at 26 – there is such a rich cultural heritage in Afghanistan — such a blend of traditions across the Silk Road, before and beyond. I don’t know why, but I’ve always had this afinity for that region in terms of literature and cultural reading…and it is particularly painful to watch the slow deterioration back toward chaos when, for a little while at least, there was the possibility of hope.
But … we promised Iraq that we would liberate them, too. I am for withdrawal from Iraq, though I recognize it will be calamitous for many people there. That’s the awful way this world works. What are our alternatives in Afghanistan?
Christy Hardin Smith @ 27
Absolutely. One of my hobbies is building stringed musical instruments, and many of the classic stringed instruments came from that region. Many examples of silk road influence and diffusion and radiation of cultural artifacts from that region. Did you know that the first pear orchards were found in Afganistan? So rich in all kinds of cultural history.
Valley Girl @ 21
Same magical thinking going on now as then, with many of the same people (should I mention that Wolfowitz was also the young whippersnapper of the Team B bunch?). I know I didn’t mention that the elder Bush was the one that let Team B into the CIA. Colby had successfully resisted the neo-con assault and steadfastly refused. Conventional wisdom is that Cheney and Rummy lobbied Ford to make Bush head of CIA to keep him from running against Ford, but I have the feeling that Cheney and Rummy were also reasonably sure they could get Bush to let Team B rummage through the CIA’s files and come up with what they needed for Rummy to start his “evil empire” pitch for more defense spending. There’s a video of Rummy in 1976 or so spouting the general neo-con line that the Soviets were sneakily running rings around us, etc. Some things (and people) don’t change….
Cheers.
Re: Charlie Rangel’s mandatory universal draft bill. His case that if the govt honchos’ own sons and daughters had to go instead of other people’s children, we never would’ve gotten into Iraq. I totally agree, so I’m dubbing this the “Jenna and Not-Jenna Military Service Act.”
Further on the class warfare by the elites: James Webb’s op-ed last week in the WSJ online journal, if you haven’t read it…it’s like a manifesto for what real Democrats should be driving in the new Congress.
And a corollary example from this morning’s Imus, his rant that the autism sponsors, out of emotion, are now negotiating away parts of the Combatting Autism Act with Joe Barton, instead of taking up the bill with Dingle in the new congress. Again, the elites coping with autism turning a blind eye, even within their own shared nightmare, to the circumstances of ordinary people coping with autism.
Whew, getting dizzy with all these intersecting circles…but it’s all of a piece with your solid writing on Afghan women this morning, Christy. It’s the elitist mentality writ large on a government level but carried throughout society on individual levels as well.
Here’s to progressive populism exemplified by Webb and Tester. May that concept drive every decision going forward.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 25
Ted Rall, in his graphic book on Afghanistan, recalls meeting an Afghan who had fought with one of the warlords, I think, and described the fellow as mid-to-late 30s, wizened, wrinkled, gray hair. When he asked him his age, he said, “nineteen.”
1,338 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Patriots:
Your poetic message about truth has, as usual, inspired an outpouring of beautifully stated posts of the same…but those of Titanyum @ #6 and Peterr Q #12 hit me closest to home.
I have 2 daughters and 3 granddaughters…the political topography of the future, if there is to be one, is of mountain ranges of feminist power to protect the fertile valleys of democracy against the arid winds of masculine war and tyranny. The political battle we are engaged in now in this country is against whole concept of religion as it is left to us in it’s application to social life and progress. Make no mistake about it, the “low information”, mentally challenged clumps of religious gangs that have tasted from the cup of political power will not leave the field of combat after something as mundane as a single election. The hopes of the world for the advance of a force of humanitarian progress against the remnants of old world religious tyranny are on American shoulders today.
The battle in which we are engaged is against the millenniums old structure of oligarchic power advanced thru the corporation and glued together by a capital value system based on vanishing resources. Political control of this system depends upon a religious bunco to intimidate and control the greater mass of the population. We will not advance another inch toward a future until we eradicate the rotting zombies of old world religion.
That’s what this fight boils down to…in order to do the things that everyone knows needs doing, we need to break the old corporate oligarchy and to do that we hafta squash the pseudoreligious gangs of thugs that now roam our political streets.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE FUCKIN’ AMMUNITION, A LOTTA PEOPLE ARE COUNTING ON US!!!
Redshift @ 17
This is what I call the MBA School of Politics.
It doesn’t work well in the business world, but the victim companies are acquired by bigger fish and Wall Street blesses the union.
The strategy does not play out so well when you *are* the ‘big fish’.
Photographer Didier Lefevre worked with Doctors Without Borders in Afghanistan in 1986, and it sparked a desire in him to know and show more of what this country has been through. An exhibition of his photographs came through SF last year, and has continued touring the country since then. The SF Chronicle wrote it up at the time, noting that DWB pulled out of Afghanistan after five of its staff were killed.
The site for the DWB afghan photo exhibit has a great selection of images, including general images, those from the Soviet Occupation era, the Afghan Civil War, the Taliban era, and now the US intervention era. (Didier’s terms)
Rayne @ 15
I always thought of the support for the mujahedeen as Realpolitik, and the Reagan administration ginning up support from the fundies as the usual cynical exploitation of their followers’ beliefs. Similar what the current administration does. It depends on who you see as the driver, I guess.
Well-written post, Christy. Hope you are feeling better today.
Maydaze:
Well-written post, Christy. Hope you are feeling better today.
You can tell from her writing that she is a little more perky than the last few days
The concept we are looking for is honor. As in our government doesn’t have any. I blame it on our anything goes style of capitalism. When “A man’s word is his bond” was replaced with “You better get that in writing” all was lost.
The thing is, what can we do to help a country that has been so ravaged for so long, to become what it obviously can be, given its rich cultural history?
montage – “Renewed strength of attacks in Iraq and Afghanistan. Redefining the US as the common enemy might cause small gains made in either of those countries to evaporate. Supply lines to troops in both places could be interfered with by Iran. Additional consequences to Pakistan could occur if Iran decided that Iran was helping US interests more than it was hurting them, despite Pakistan’s current status as a US ally.”
Just a nit-pick; i’m sure you meant Pakistan.
Excellent post! Recommended.
Christy Hardin Smith @
27
It is a nexus point and has been realized as such for generations. East is East and West is West and never the twain should meet; but, when they do, it is the unbelievably harsh training ground of the terrain that gives the people an advantage in military conflict when, by rights, they should have none. But that advantage comes with a price; as harsh and breaking as the terrain, so too are the warriors and their families pay the highest price.
It is a microcosm of tragedy and seems to have been realized as such for a long time. Kipling knew it. I first remember being introduced to it in the romance of M. M. Kaye’s “The Far Pavillions.” There was a fair amount of history in that novel and it was good background to watch the Russian conflict splatter itself again and again against that hardened landscape–and these were a strong, northern people who had controlled larger and more diverse populations, but never more committed ones. There is both the beauty and the curse that is Afghanistan. That the land demands the level of commitment from the human spirit, and gives strength in return, at the price of the spirit, itself. Perhaps Afghanistan is a microcosm of more than just its own tragedy.
All the talk about building Iraq up as a model of democracy when in Afghanistan the opporturnity existed. What a great legacy for the world it could’ve been. I hate to think when history looks back at our handling of Afghanistan this time, it would say that going into the conflict, American had the moral authority of the free world on it’s side. When it came out on the other side, it lost it forever by abondaning it’s principles.
Afghan musical instruments. Beautiful stuff:
http://afghanland.com/entertai…..ments.html
Helpless Dancer @
38
Don’t blame it on capitalism. True capitalism does not repeatedly reward perpetual failures like George W Bush.
Christy,
Where did that picture come from? It’s really wonderful and says so much.
Clusterfuck could mess up a change of linen- but on the other hand- who has ever been able to solve the problem of Afhanistan..More troops? Shit- I don’t know–history suggests “no”.
It seems that you pretty much need to kill these religious fanatics- ya can’t convert em or reason with em- and ya gotta find em ta kill em. Ya can’t find em if their neighbors are willing to cover em up..
So what do you do? It’s early in the morning here- but it beats the hell out of me.
It continues to amaze me that there was international outrage when two ancient statues of Buddha in Bamiyan were toppled. I was outraged as well, but when you look at the human consequences of what is going on there, the outrage should be at least as equal to if not exponentially more than it was for the statues.
Tragically, the outrage meter has been smashed and shattered by the Bush Crime Family and all of its minions. It may take the artistic community to rise up in all sectors to crash through the denial that seems to be pervading society. The news media certainly isn’t doing the job.
Sha at 45 — You know, I found that picture last year and used it for a post then. I don’t generally re-use photos, because we like to keep the visuals fresh, but the feel of this haunting photo was perfect for this story this morning. So I pulled it out of the archives. And I hadn’t linked up the source in the original post (which is, frankly, unlike me — I try and do that as often as I can). So I’m not certain where I found it. I wish I knew, I’d love to credit the photographer. I seem to remember it may have come from a German wire story at the time, but I don’t know that for certain. If anyone finds the original, I’d love to link it up…I did a little browsing for it this morning and came up empty.
MayDaze at 36 — I am feeling better today, thanks much for asking. And since The Peanut is all better and back in preschool this morning, momma had the brain space to put some real thought into this morning’s writing as well. Nice when you can take a little time to craft your sentences instead of having to write on the fly. It’s a positively luxurious brain space this morning…
Thank you for this post, Christy.
Tony Blair is there now and Reuters is reporting this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15811697/
Who is he kidding? These 2 governments– the UK and the US have failed completely and caused so much death and destruction.
The occupation must end. Pakistan and others must reel in their fundamentalists and pull out of Afghanistan. The Afghan people will rebuild their own country with money and support from those that broke it– Russia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, UK, and the US. If there was justice, this would happen.
I have seen recent figures that a woman dies in childbirth every 20 minutes. Healthcare is mostly nonexistent, as are schools, food, clean water and safety.
It was not always this way. Afghanistan did have a democratic legislature beginning back in the 60’s under King Zahir Shah. Women were at universities and graduated as doctors and lawyers and teachers.
Prairie Sunshine @ 31
Is everyone here so young that they don’t remember when we had a draft? Rich kids weren’t sent to Vietnam, poor kids were. Look at Bush and his “exemption” in the Guard. The rich will never allow their kids to be drafted. A draft would simply force poor and middle-class kids to go to war. Now, at least, they have a choice.
I know I’ve commented on this before and don’t want to be a broken record, but I see this as an Overton Window thing that really needs to be nipped in the bud.
Clusterfuck has proved that the CIA was right during the cold war- if you want to decapitate the leadership in a country- you don’t come in and occupy it and hold fuckin elections- you come in- set up a strong dictator- and get the fuck out of Dodge..
Their way led to the Sha in Iran….Didn’t last forever-and was probably counterproductive in the end- but when you see what Clusterfuck’s way leads to- it starts to look- well at least better.
JohnSwifty at 41 — Ahhh, I adore “The Far Pavilions.” But I think M.M Kaye’s “Shadow of the Moon” was even better, although about India. Those were two of my favorites as a kid, and books that I’m going to have to dig out and read again now. Thanks for the reminder. :)
It never ceases to amaze me how little of histories lessons appear to have been learned by the Bush Administration. Given that the imperial powers, and later the Cold War powers, crashed continuously against the spine of the Afghan mountains, only to be broken time and time again as they tossed the dice in the Great Game, and lost in Afghanistan always. How could someone who has aspirations in foreign policy and military strategy not know this — and not understand its lessons of cooperative, not conflicting, actions int he region? It is truly beyond me how they can be so freaking oblivious…but it is an outrage, nonetheless.
the only way for America to keep her word to afghanistan os for the president to admit he should have never abandoned it.
that would mean admitting Iraq was poorly concieved even if it worked out.
this president will never admit that, which means we will not revisit afghanistan until the man is office is taken from his office.
impeachment will be the only way we go back to afghanistan
Kathryn in MA @ 40
Yes. Quite correct. I’d fix it, but, unfortunately, when I try to edit and republish, Blogger locks up all the browser windows and puts the computer into an endless loop. :(
Redd–Yeah- an Clusterfuck was an ivy league history major!
rw at 56 — yes, history of keggers at Yale…
rwcole @ 56
Talk about social promotion! He was too busy hazing the pledges to pay attention.
rwcole @ 56
Yeah, right, the history of booze?
I happen to know that Yale has an exceptional history department, btw. It is more than clear to me that Bush did not pay attention, or only took classes that reaffirmed his idiotic world view to whatever extent he had already formed one during his tenure there. And that is a shame, because they have a very broad, and extensive history, of the study of cultural cross-connections and historical parallels there that could have provided him with some useful insights. Pity that money can’t buy you character.
If Afghanistan is going to become stable, then someone is going to have to take over control who is willing and able to crush the religious whackos–that’s a pretty tall order- as they are a significant chunk of the population- and are supported by the war lords in the provinces in many cases.
What you seem to have here is fuedalism- and Clusterfuck is tryin to destroy it with a flyswatter.
More on Afghan culture: I hope you don’t mind, but I believe it is better to study a culture before you do dumb shit like the current administration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C…..fghanistan
Frank Probst @ 44
I don’t think what we have is true capitalism or else shrub would be living at the family compound sucking up booze and making the servants lives hell. The point I was trying to make is that when it is considered alright to lie, cheat, and steal as long as you’re the winner threw any meaningful understanding of the concept of honor out the window.
Christy, this is an extraordinarily eloquent and moving statement. I don’t want what I’m about to say to detract from that.
In the last 12 hours (starting during the last hour of the Book Salon thread) two completely different views have been expressed by commenters here:
1. The US is justified in invading/occupying a Muslim nation (e.g., Afghanistan) if it’s goals are to liberate society from brutal oppression, religious extremism, and sex discrimination. We should not hesitate to put additional resources into achieving these goals, not only because the goals justify the actions but also because we promised we would remain committed to serve those goals.
2. The US is not justified in invading/occupying a Muslim nation (e.g., Iraq), even if we could honestly (assumed for the sake of argument) claim that our goal was to liberate society from brutal oppression. religious extremism and sex discrmination. We should put no more resources into that effort, and should instead begin to withdraw (or just “get out), notwithstanding repeated assurances that we would not do so. In addition to the argument that this was a mistake from the beginning (whether or not based on false pretenses), the argument is that the US has no business involving itself in the governance/society of another country, and any effort to do so is arrogant, meddlesome colonialism.
There are obviously important distinctions between the two cases that might support very different policy justifications in one nation vs the other, but when stripped down to essentials, this apparent dichotomy seems a perfect reflection of America’s very divided view of American foreign policy and what to do next about both Afghanistan and Iraq.
It isn’t, I think, just a matter of Afghanistan or Iraq. The Clusterfuck strategy of invading, deposing, occupying, and democratizing has never to my knowledge worked..well you could say that India ended up goin through those stages- but it was over a very long period of time.
Anyone think of a success that Clusterfuck could point to as a precedent?
Frank Probst @ 44
I think a good case could be made that Bush has never failed capitalism – at least not until the recent elections. Capitalists care not a whit about losing lives. The only way Iraq is a failure to capitalists is if western corporations lose access to the oil.
here’s a bit about us:
http://www.informationclearing…..e15146.htm
it’s always about us.
;(
MayDaze @ 51
I agree. Rangel thinks he can get a no-loopholes draft through Congress, but, let’s look at history. It was law that people with enough money could buy the enlistment of someone else during the Civil War (J.P. Morgan bought his way out for $300). Same thing happened in the Spanish-American War. (I know someone whose great-grandfather went to the Philippines during the fighting there and was so disgusted by it that when he came home on leave, he sold his uniform and papers to someone who needed three squares a day for $13).
No one has ever produced an airtight draft; the wealthy have always managed to evade the draft if that was their choice.
My feeling? The draft just makes it easier to start foreign wars, escalate them as desired and makes it easier to forget about the soldiers later.
Cheers.
CNN – Iran calls for summit with Iran, Iraq and Syria to curb Iraqi violence
Wait, weren’t the junta’s apologist just a few months ago telling us how swimmingly things were going in Afghanistan? Hell things were allegedly going so well that they were trying to tie Iraq to Afghanistan I almost thought it was one country Iraghastan or some such nonsense.
Must be NATO’s fault things have just gone to hell since we let those foreigners take over running things.
Christy Hardin Smith @
23
Nuthatches. So glad they’re joining you today. They always bring a smile and a chuckle here also. Little acrobatic windup toys. I hope they bring you some cheer.
Thank you for a wonderful post. An effort like yours surely is emotionally draining & utterly exhausting at times like these. I’m glad you have your nuthatches for comic relief,
AND that beautiful little Peanut & Mr. Redd to spoil you once in awhile.
{{{HUGS}}}
sofistic @ 39
This morning’s CBC 6:00am news (Toronto) had a story quoting a Cdn Forces spokesman that poppy eradiation in Afghanistan was a bad idea. It is being done by US private contractors out of (?)VA. I can’t find a netsource for that, but this story from July seems to cover most of the ground, this one is a Cdn commander’s take on it from back in April. An honourable man, it looks like, I hope he has been able keep his word.
The War on Terror, the War on Drugs, just excuses. Not even calling it War on Poor and/or Brown (which it often looks like) helps to explain it. Am I dumb? I do not ‘get’ this need for world domination, but some folks keep wanting to do it even when it doesn’t pay. Is it what Margaret Mead said, Fear of the Other?
1,337 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
rwcole:
“…who has ever been able to solve the problem of Afghanistan…more troops…history suggests ‘no’”.
You are correct up ’til now…but Clusterfuck and his PNAC neo-con goblins have placed us in a situation with only 2 alternatives. The first is to quit the field and leave it to the reactionary religious zealots and the secular feudalists to duke it out. Of course that sets up the domestic situation that the Wiemar folks faced in Germany inter war…”who stabbed us in the back and cost us our oil?” Can’tcha hear it now?
The other is to withdraw the bulk of our troops AND material from Iraq to Afghanistan and kick the asses of all the feudal and religious zombies back into the 12th century. The risk ,of course, is the nuclear shit that could rain on us from Pakistan with the whole hearted support of the feudalists (Syria and Iran) AND the religious crackpots (Taliban). I think that of the 2 risks, the “cleansing” of Afghanistan has a more immediate payoff but would lead us neck deep into an occupation and nation-building in the region that would be catastrophic.
I think we jest gotta get our kids home as quickly and safely as we can and then bring the Nuremberg Trials home ta Washington, DC and fight the last battle of our civil war and end the 150 year political nightmare we been livin’ here…
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE STRUGGLE IS NEVER OVER!!!
crow
There is always conflict between the need to be active peacemakers in a troubled world and the obligation to refrain from imposing our will on other nations unilaterly and through violent means…
Extreme pacifism is intellectually respectable- as is a more aggressive role for a super power in eliminating death- as we see in parts of Africa…Most of us are probably somewhere in between- some interventions are justified and others are not.
At a minimum though, an intervention has to WORK- it has to be economically feasible and produce results out of proportion to it’s costs- if it’s expensive AND it doesn’t work- well then I suppose we can all agree that it was a big mistake.
montag @ 68
Or, he knows he can’t, but intends to use the failure of any such effort to highlight the inherent iniquities. Frankly, I’d rather Rangel sincerely if erroneously thought he could get Congress to pass a no-loopholes draft, because the alternative is that he’s playing with fire in the hope that somebody else gets burned, and that’s not very good sense.
One would think that the Brits should have been more reluctant to go into Afghanistan given their own experiences there. From Kipling, the only poet that I ever identified with:
When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An’ go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier of the Queen!
Scarecrow at 64:
Your observation is right on, and I find myself conflicted frequently between “helping” and “leaving it alone.” The one factor that alters my balance point is that we are already there, and we have already upset the forces of “natural culture.” We can’t change that so what do we do now?
dumb question here:
Wouldn’t a draft of ANY sort just serve to enable the endless-war nutsquad?
I like Rangel, a LOT. But, no draft Charlie, PLEASE!
Montag @ 68 (8:16)-
Exactly. Thank you.
The fuedalists have always been aided and abbetted by organized religion- always. Religion justifies the institutions and controls resistance to it- while the fuedalists offer the religious organization a monopoly on prayer and the collection plate. Works pretty slick.
e before u, especially after f ;->
Adie- thanks
Seems to me that the biggest difference between Iraq and Afghanistan is that in Iraq we eliminated the stabilizing force and the govt- it can never be put back together again. In Afghanistan we did not. Outside Kabul- the same people are in charge as were in charge before we came. If we left- they’d be right back to where they were before we came without missing a beat. We really didn’t change very much- cause we don’t know how.
Now, it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles, and he weareth the Christian down;
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, with the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear: ‘A fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.’
Kipling
sofistic @ 77
I agree that the “we’re already there” factor affects how we think about the problem. But of course, that applies to both countries, so that factor doesn’t seem to be driving the very different conclusions we have about what to do in Iraq vs what to do in Afghanistan.
All I’m pointing out is that if the argument is we need to use US military force to ensure humane treatment of people in Afghanistan (or Darfur?), then that argument applies very broadly to other countries. The issues then become, which interventions do we pick (given limited resources) and how do we go about it (unilaterally, in coalitions, only through established international forums?) Or alternatively, if the argument is that we have no right to intervene militarily elsewhere, then that also applies broadly — and unless we extrapolate that to “mind your own business,” perhaps the issue becomes how we nevertheless pursue humane outcomes elsewhere through other means that don’t involve US military intervention.
Blair makes speech in Afghanistan today warning that it will take a generation to oust the Taliban…may be a massive understatement.
A universal draft that included public service options and post-secondary education benefits. . .hell yes!
Adie @
78
rwcole @ 83
I’m hardly an expert here, but I thought the opposite was true, rwcole. In both cases, we pretty much dismantled.banned the national government — the Baatists and its army in Iraq; the Taliban and their fighters in Afghanistan. You’re suggesting we left something in place in the latter?
raven @ 84
Rangel’s counting on the fact that war looks less heroic if yer own kid is one of the casualties…
Of course if we attain the high militaristic standards of sparta- mothers will tell their sons and daughters—WITH your shield or ON it- the only two ways to return!!!
Way off topic but a little good news, Tom Noe gets 18 years. More here
And this has been another episode of your Family Values Republican party doing what they do best.
any time rwc ;->
just a lame attempt to act like Christy’s lil’ nuthatch at 23…
Thanks to YOU.
this is awful heavy stuff
and it’s not gonna stop, for any who care about the world the way firedawgs do
I know it’d be “too disruptive”, but I still come down on the side of impeachment. This administration is a complete abomination!
How can they NOT be impeached?!
Times like these – whenever has this ever happened before?!? – I’m so thankful for the FDL community….sigh ….
MayDaze 36 — I don’t think we can really separate the RealPolitik from exploitation. Look at what happened to us when we ignored one or the other; they are symbiotic, if not faces of the very same coin. Look at the Heritage Foundation; they gin the policy that supports RealPolitik, but they are also the very fundies that are exploited.
Crow—Oh yeah—the dear leader we got elected is referred to as the “Mayor of Kabul”.
Outside the city, the country is still being run by “princes” who control things with pick up trucks full of armed troops loyal only to them. No one bucks these guys- and Clusterfuck hasn’t even TRIED to remove em. They are movers and shakers in the poppy trade. Bottom line- outside Kabul- we haven’t changed a thing.
Adie
It would be nice to see some JUSTICE for this criminally negligent administration- but it’s probably too late to make impeachment much of an issue. As a practical matter:
1) We don’t have the votes
2) If we DID have the votes- the process wouldn’t be completed until he’s about to leave anyway
3) You’re stuck with Cheney
4) People are sick of parties impeaching one another’s presidents- so you’d probably end up with another gooper in the White House.
CNN.com was polling this morning on whether the proposed draft would actually deter politicians from starting wars. The responses are definitely on the ‘No’ side of the scale. Sorry, Charlie.
raven @ 87
Granted, YES. I just wish I could believe the safeguards would be in place to ensure the peaceful service option.
I guess Dems would just have to stay in power, eh? Fair enuf.
Iraq is the disaster, Afghanistan is the millstone. I believe the world will eventually forgive the United States for what we are doing in Iraq on the grounds that the policy was the product of a virtual coup d’etat of the American government by a small group of dedicated and ruthless revolutionaries. Afghanistan is different. We had and made a real moral case for being there, and we can’t leave without forever tarnishing ourselves. We have engaged NATO, and Europeans and Canadians are dying for what was our policy. If this Administration cuts and runs here, it will be to our everlasting shame, not to mention the much worse effects on the people of Afghanistan.
I do not hold out much hope for success in Afghanistan, but quitting is not a solution. We need to move troops presently in Iraq to that country and hope that an extra 100,000 will do the trick.
We will not outlive the terrible consequences of the disaster Bush has wrought on this and two other countries.
Just to put things in perspective, Afghanistan is a “synthetic” country, assembled from a bunch of warring factions about 300 years ago. Before that, it was a constantly shifting assemblage of one or another Persian and other tribal groups. The Taliban, itself is relatively new, rising to power only in 1994. Here is a little history of that constantly shifting set of conditions.
http://www.nationsencyclopedia…..STORY.html
Adie @
78
There will be no draft. Safe bet.
_
Rangel’s proposal has zero chance of passage. It’s not about the bill — it is about raising the issue of these wars being fought disproportionately on the backs of the disadvantaged, while the children of the wealthy and the powerful get a pass. And it is about calling the chickenhawks on the carpet — in Congress and in the Administration. Rangel is a vet, and he and a number of other vets in Congress have had enough of the pushing of additional wars without people fully understanding the full price that we pay for them.
This is about starting a conversation — not about any chance of legislative success — and it is being raised strategically at a time when the AEI is planting op-eds about bombing Iran. This is not a coincidence — Rangel is a smart cookie, and I’d bet he has some backing from other vets across the aisle in asking these questions. Miltary folks have had more than enough of the Bush idiocy.
Rayne @ 93
You have a point. I tend to look at these things from a Marxist perspective – the economic substructure driving everything else. So I see exploitation as an inherent part of the current economic system.
Where in the world is Osama San Diego? Good old Bushy and glee club have fucked everything so hard that even our country won’t shit right for another decade. Poor Afghanistan, left to wither and die in the cold by the greatest power on Earth.
rwcole — prior to the US invasion, either the Taliban had some control over local politics outside of the capital or they didn’t. I thought that when the Taliban were routed by local non-Taliban militias/tribal leaders and US Rangers, it was pretty much country-wide. That was a change from the pre-invasion Taliban regime. In recent months, more and more of the Southern region and the border areas near Pakistan have been been retaken by Taliban. That is what the news reports seem to be saying. And it is because the Taliban are reportedly retaking increasing regions of the country that there is a concern (as in Christy’s post), that the Taliban will reinstitute their oppressive rule.
rwc 94
i know, i know – hence my sigh…..
oh, and by the way, I meant double impeachment *harumph*
no deadeye tag-ends for me, no way….
when I pick up a broom, I mean bidness *g*
rwcole @
80
Well, sometimes it stops working. Ask Karl.
I wonder, wouldn’t we have seen it as arrogant if someone, let’s say France, had sent in troops to oversee our elections and help free us from BushCo and the Evangelicals? Even if they came in at the people’s request? What people would that have been? Probably not you and me. Would we be stronger or weaker as a society, as a nation? How can any second step succeed if the first step comes from outside the society?
Adie @ 105
I’d support giving you a no-bid contract to clean the WH. Use as many brooms as you need, cost-plus.
Christy 101
That’s what I thought I’d read quite awhile ago.
Whoosh! I’d hate to play poker agnst Rangel. But I surely get a kick out of watching a real artist shuffle the cards.
Go Charlie! Put the scoundrels front & center, & make ‘em sweat! DANG! He’s good!
rwcole @ 95
So should we just let this cabal get away with all the damage that they have inflicted on our way of life? Just because the radical right choose to impeach a popular president for purely partisan reasons. It really comes down to salvaging our nation’s honor. Nixon faced impeachment for far less than this president and yet the pragmatists say we shouldn’t do this. Consider the example that would leave to future generations who might want to preserve out nation’s ideals
Christy Hardin Smith @ 101
I agree with you that this is a ploy. We’ll see how well it works. The military brass themselves want no part of a draft. 3rd rail politically, and an administrative/logistical nightmare.
_
new thread
RevDeb @
47
I covered the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas when it occurred. Their demolition was more iconic of history than representative of other crimes of the Taliban at that time. Of minor note at this point is the fact that the trucks and explosives used in the demolition had been provided to the Taliban by an offshore subsidiary of Halliburton.
To Buddhists – not many of them around Bamiyan these days – the statues were more representative of the devotion of those who had created them in the progress of their souls, than they could be considered “idols” or “statues” in the Western sense.
OT – get out your violins for Pombo:
Christy Hardin Smith @
53
Oh, I liked “Shadow of the Moon” quite a bit (was the heroine named ‘Winter’?); but no one could ever replace Anjuli Bai in my literary heart’s desire.
Then, of course, there was M. M. Kaye’s “Death in…” series. But, my dear, if I were to revisit those lovely little pieces of mental candy I’d have no time for reading your prose; and, I must say yours is more worthwhile and meaningful when your readers take your posts to heart and act upon them.
Be careful, though; Diana Gabaldon started as a novelist and moved to blogging. What would we do without you, were you to go the other way?
punaise @ 112
Poor, sweet baby. (Kick!)
OT..http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/11/ucla-policy-okays-use-of-tasers.html
UCLA has an official policy that allows “pain compliance techniques” against passive demonstrators.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 101
I’m sure you’re right – it has no chance of passage at this point in time. I do get the point about the chickenhawks, and Rangel is obviously a very bright guy. But IMO it’s a poor (and rather cynical) choice of issues to raise WRT the current wars. The only reason Bush hasn’t committed more atrocities on the world stage is that he has run out of troops. He wouldn’t have that problem with a draft. Anything that validates the concept of a draft is anathema to those of us who value peace and personal choice (the “freedom” that we hear so much about until someone, say, actually wants the state to relinquish control of his/her body).
scarecrow @ 107
No problem. I’ll do it for free.
And absent that impeachment option, whilst I’m sweepin’, how ’bout someone else working on lawsuits as far as the eye can see agnst those scoundrels – the nanosecond they step outta OUR bigwhitehouse?!
Did I hear somewhere that MM Kaye of Far Pavillions fame, is related to David Kaye?
Dancer-
Well this guy’s well on his way to infamy..He just got the shit kicked out of him- and now his gooper congresscritters are about to engage in a scorched earth policy to disassociate themselves from him..
Add to that- the dems are thinkin of new things to “vestigate” almost daily…
It won’t be a prison cell- but after the next two years- Clusterfuck may well echo the words on WC Field’s tombstone “On the whole- I’d rather be in Philadelphia”.
MayDaze at 116 — yeah, but the conversation to be started is not with Bush — it’s with the people who suddenly realize that their children might be at risk…and then start to think about their misplaced loyalty to an idiot and his reckless foreign policy and military misuse. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Bush, I would posit…and everything to do with everyone else taking responsibility for what their neglectful, short-sighted power grabbing rubber stamping loyalty hath wrought.
Ed*ard Teller @ 111
ET,
I understand, and did at the time that this was a symbolic gesture albeit a large one with a limited local effect. What I found interesting was the amount of international attention this symbolic event garnered. Thanks for your input.
punaise
When it comes to gooper assholes- California has some beauts– rivals any state in the nation. At least we got ONE of the fuckers.
Can someone eplain why Charlie Rangle’s symbolic draft is a good/smart idea but anybody’s symbolic impeachment is a bad/stupid idea?
Damn it, this is not about practical, this is about right. No one deserves two more years of G. Here is a model from the business word: FIRE the bastards.
Loueeez, this is not a rude WalMart greeter are talking about. It is the most dangerous SOB’s on the planet. They have already killed hundreds of thousands and destroyed the lives of many, many more. Sigh. Did not each and every congresscritter take an oath to defend the constitution? Can they be charged with perjury? Or is that oath symbolic, too?
punaise @ 112
OT
http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/bl…..gives.html
HotFlash at 123 — I’ve explained that about a bazillion times at this point, but let me try a simple way: you don’t railroad through an impeachent process, you build it. It was wrong for the GOP to do it during the Clinton years and just because you hate Bush with the same level of ferocity that Burton hated Clinton, it does not justify not following the process that the Founding Fathers set out from the start. You either follow the laws and the precedents or you throw them away, and frankly we have had quite enough throwaway behavior the last few years.
Oh, and new thread, everyone.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 120
I don’t want to beat this to death (too late?), but nobody really thinks their children will be at risk – as you said yourself it has no chance of passage. The problem as I see it is that it enables the draft as an egalitarian concept (which could never possibly be realized). How many impressionable people (like some here) are going to now favor a draft? That’s the problem with this, IMO. Sorry to go on so, it’s an issue that really resonates with me.
HotFlash @ 123
I can understand all the rational folk as they explain the whys & why nots. I can nod and hang my head. BUT I’m with you. I feel like a kid who just found out there’s no Santa. And good guys don’t always win. And parents can cheat. I understand the why, but I can’t accept it. Deep inside, I KNOW any decision NOT TO IMPEACH these scum IS ABSOLUTELY OBSCENE!
does it help to think of the office, and not the current occupant of that office?
emotionally, no. it doesn’t.
but yes, Christy, we understand.
and we appreciate your patience beyond measure.
is it o.k. if some firepups growl quietly under their breath when they’re told why they can’t chew the furniture?
’cause….. oh sigh!
scarecrow @ 64 – I think it is much more complex.
Who determines what is extremism, oppression and discrimination? The US? Which parts of the US? I have a family up the road where women are not allowed to wear pants, any monies earned outside the home have to go to the man of the house, no access in the home to any materials not approved by the father/husband. Am i justified in invading that house to liberate the women in the family (who are ok with their decisions)?
What if it was spankings. Beatings. Chaining. Not feeding. What if it was not feeding because there is no job? What if adopting a very strict fundatmentalist aspect allows the family to have a job, food, a roof? Am I justified then in breaking those bonds and “freeing” them from the repression and oppression, then walking away without leaving any other mechanism for food, water, etc?
What if culturally those I am “freeing” view forcing their woment to interact in the way we believe in society is oppression?
The “goal” of invasion/occupation can almost never, successfully, be the imposition of a wholly new culture on a resistant area. So any attempts to ‘libereate’ need to be preceded by a thorough study of the culture and history and by a study of the impact of military force on the area and how the imposition of military force will accomplish the goals. Does bringing ‘our version’ of what a country ’should have’ at the end of a assault weapon or in the remnants of a cluster bomb or the miscalculation of (or accepted collateral damage from) a ’smart bomb’ constitute the laudable goal of commiting all the resources needed to bring freedom?
We have little common history or culture with the Muslim countries we have invaded. But the pragmatics are not just a cynical overlay – they are integral to detemining not just whether goals can be achieved, but whether we can have any uniformity or overlap with “our” goals and the goals of the people we are imposing our goals upon.
Another element is at what point the commitment to overseas goals has such a significant domestic cost that it threatens oppression or insecurity or lessened freedoms at home. The “what does it profit-if” question.
Finally, the issues of whether military efforts are the correct option for working on mutual US/occupied country goals. Let’s say you take your dog to the vet because of a large and suspicious lump on its hip. The vet confirms cancer and recommends —- that they get a pistol and take turns shooting the dog in the hip until the lump is gone.
Laudable goal – getting rid of that cancer?
How many shots should they devote to the effort?
Never give up?
Does the dog get a vote?
Should they keep shooting at the lump even after the dog is dead?
Mere recitation of a goal in association with an activity (hey – look, the cancer quit growing when the dog died) doesn’t mean much.
IMO, Afghanistan is a different case from Iraq, although it is becoming less and less so, because it had many different elements, originally. Not because of large differences in ‘goals’. FOr one thing, the perception of almost everyone with respect to the “right” of the US to be in Afghansitan after 9/11 and Bin Laden’s protection by the Taliban, was completely different from Iraq. Any million person candle vigils worldwide against us going into Afghanistan? Those things DO make a difference.
Also, Afghanistan was being occupied at the time. The Taliban were by and large Pakistan and other foreign ex-jihadis that took control of a vulnerable country and assisted in the assassination of some of the country’s existing leaders. In addition, the poverty was so huge. HUGE.
It’s all too long to address, but the pragmatic reasons for being in AFghanistan vs. Iraq were very different. I think no amount of “better execution” would have made much difference in Iraq over the long haul, although it would ahve lessened the carnage. Afghanistan, though, had and may still have some possilities for positive outcomes. But it needs a top/down rework and much more commitment.
So I see Iraq and Afghanistan and come up with completely different stay/go; commit more/commit less goals (strategies, tactics) because the question isn’t so much pick #1 or #2, it is pick something with a chance of success – and that means study study study the options, culture, economics, dyanmics, geopolitics, geo-geo, etc.
fwiw ymmv
Christy Hardin Smith @ 126
Yes, I know *you* have explained it to *me* a large percentage of those times, and I thank you for your patience :) But when I hear from the ones *we* elected to positions where they can do something about it, when I hear from *them* that impeachment “off the table” and there is a signed deal to that effect, I wonder. When I hear that voting against funding the war would be ‘not supporting the troops’. So many voters who sent a message’ re the War and GW — well, an acknowledgement from the votees would be reassuring. So far there’s lots of evidence of same as usual. Does one normally build an impeachment by announcing that one won’t consider impeachment? Politics is too strange.
Would Rahm and Chuck trying to claim all the political capital any part of the reason?
Excellent stuff, Christy.
If Mary is still here — thanks much for your thoughtful response on last thread. As usual, I think we come out about the same place, and I wasn’t raising the question to suggest otherwise. The point was to help clarify what we’re doing and why we make a distinction when there are also similarities, and to anticipate the arguments from the other side. You addressed all of these.
scarecrow- I knew you were not saying it was that simple. I think of you as the Socratic Method Scarecrow. *g*
Mary at 136 — that is so perfect! He is Socratic method scarecrow. :) Brilliant!
MayDaze @
117
I take Rangel’s point to be many of the kids in the military did not have the freedom you speak of (how many had a real option to go to college or get a good job?). It is unethical for society to create such a significant lack of autonomy.
Not a chance of passage, but a great chance to have a conversation long overdue – can we get the child of a mill worker the same basic autonomy the child of a Brahmin has? You need look no further than the Boy King to see how far out of kilter things have gotten.
FWIW, I’d favor a two-year service option in return for meaningful education grants, with two caveats.
The term of service need not be military – AmeriCorp, Peace Corp, Katrina reconstruction,port and customs inspection,teaching, EMT, etc.
Congress explicitly and firmly reclaims constitutional control over war-making. Congress declares, President executes.
Lastly, if Dems are smart and control the apparatus, we can make damn sure the elite are proportionately represented in the ranks. Hows it going to look with the blogosphere, and then the MSM, screaming some captain of industry asked for a free pass for his kid? The MSM covered this BS up when it was the Boy King’s turn – I don’t see that happening again.
Ah Grasshopper. You have short memories.
Remember back after The Gulf
WarInvasion when Bush 41 gave support to the Kurds and Shias to rise up against Saddam.Bush 41 didn’t follow through and Saddam crushed them and massacred them.
Ironic how the same tendencies run in the same family.
Ohhhhh.
Forgot to mention that the odds are on “P” Bush (GHWB’s grandkid) to win the GOP nomination in 2016.
The public never learns.
If you want a truly heartbreaking look at Afghanistan since we bombed it in 2001, read Kabul in Winter by Ann Jones. It’s an amazing book.