FITZ!!!

Woohoo! It’s been a long time.

darn i was close this time

Oy: not the Partridge Family!

Pach at 4 — it seemed somehow appropriate for the moment. *g*

Are we prepared to say a necessary condition for supporting the Democratic candidate for president in 2008 is that she or he advocate pulling American G.I.’s out of Iraq?

Pachacutec @ 4

Oy: not the Partridge Family!

Pach, thanks for the Partridge warning, I got it in time. I owe ya, buddy.

Christy Hardin Smith @ 4

Pach at 4 — it seemed somehow appropriate for the moment. *g*

Partridge family?

Oklahoma kiddo @ 6

Are we prepared to say a necessary condition for supporting the Democratic candidate for president in 2008 is that she or he advocate pulling American G.I.’s out of Iraq?

I am. Didn’t the majority of us say something like that to Congress just a week or so ago?

Nevah mind. Following links helps.

Not to be too cranky..but my popcorn doesn’t taste so good when I watch WWJD.

Lindy @
8

Christy Hardin Smith @ 4

Pach at 4 — it seemed somehow appropriate for the moment. *g*

Partridge family?

Sniffle. Breaking up is hard to do.

congrats on the o!

HotFlash @ 9

Oklahoma kiddo @ 6

Are we prepared to say a necessary condition for supporting the Democratic candidate for president in 2008 is that she or he advocate pulling American G.I.’s out of Iraq?

I am. Didn’t the majority of us say something like that to Congress just a week or so ago?

I thought so. That rules out the big H, doesn’t it?

kiddo– I think it will be way past over by then. We’ll either be out or in the process…Clusterfuck has already stretched this war at least a year beyond it’s life expectancy…You can see the convergence of testimony on the new reality. It’s over.

Pachacutec @
4

Oy: not the Partridge Family!

Somehow, in a post “Breaking Bonaduce” world, it’s even more horrifying.

rwcole @ 14

kiddo– I think it will be way past over by then. We’ll either be out or in the process…Clusterfuck has already stretched this war at least a year beyond it’s life expectancy…You can see the convergence of testimony on the new reality. It’s over.

*grin* rw, I think it should be now that we apply that standard.

re Cakewalk Adelman -

Success has 1,000 fathers, failure is an orphan, ‘eh?
_

“There are a lot of lives that are lost,” Adelman said in an interview last week. “A country’s at stake. A region’s at stake. This is a gigantic situation. . . . This didn’t have to be managed this bad. It’s just awful.”

Oh, I don’t know, Kenny-boy–may I call you Kenny-boy? I know it’s recycled, but then again, so are you. It seems to me that some of us had argued from the start that the only way to manage this war well was to not fight it at all. Did you listen? My stars and garters, no, as Rummy might have said when somebody was still paying attention to what he said. So suck it down, Kenny-boy, this war is what you made it.

HotFlash @
7

Pachacutec @ 4

Oy: not the Partridge Family!

Pach, thanks for the Partridge warning, I got it in time. I owe ya, buddy.

I’ll second that. It almost makes up for Pach egging DB on with the red shorts.

Lindy @ 13

HotFlash @ 9

Oklahoma kiddo @ 6

Are we prepared to say a necessary condition for supporting the Democratic candidate for president in 2008 is that she or he advocate pulling American G.I.’s out of Iraq?

I am. Didn’t the majority of us say something like that to Congress just a week or so ago?

I thought so. That rules out the big H, doesn’t it?

Big Y(es).

I had d agood laugh when I read that article this morning. A very good laugh.

it would seem like the wheels were coming off the bus except there have been people from the Admin. quitting and speaking out almost from the beginning–back to PAul O’Neil

HotFlash @ 9

Oklahoma kiddo @ 6

Are we prepared to say a necessary condition for supporting the Democratic candidate for president in 2008 is that she or he advocate pulling American G.I.’s out of Iraq?

I am. Didn’t the majority of us say something like that to Congress just a week or so ago?

And two years ago…

rwcole @ 14

kiddo– I think it will be way past over by then. We’ll either be out or in the process…Clusterfuck has already stretched this war at least a year beyond it’s life expectancy…You can see the convergence of testimony on the new reality. It’s over.

That may be true, but he’s been very clear that he’s not going to be the one to pull the troops out. Maybe President Pelosi will do it, post-impeachment.

Great post, as usual, Christy. I thought it was revealed recently that Kissinger has been sneaking into the White House for a long time. If true, it explains a lot.

MayDaze @ 24

Great post, as usual, Christy. I thought it was revealed recently that Kissinger has been sneaking into the White House for a long time. If true, it explains a lot.

It’s in Woodward’s new book.

So the question is:

How low can he go?

GWB JAR?

I see twennies rilly soon.

MayDaze @ 24

Great post, as usual, Christy. I thought it was revealed recently that Kissinger has been sneaking into the White House for a long time. If true, it explains a lot.

Same nights as Gannon or different ones?

Mary–You’re forgetting- he lies.

Et tu, Henry?

CNN — Adelman, former Bush speechwriter David Frum, and some other neocon were interviewed by Wolf Blitzer. They all lamented how badly the war was waged, but none lamented their advocacy for starting it.

1. Glenn Greenwald keeps asking, “Why would you ask any neocon, i.e., the people who talked us into this and who were wrong about everything, what we should do next? Why aren’t these people totally discredited?”

2. Neocons trying to throw Bush and Cheney under the Bus; they should all be chained together.

Oklahoma kiddo @
6

Are we prepared to say a necessary condition for supporting the Democratic candidate for president in 2008 is that she or he advocate pulling American G.I.’s out of Iraq?

In my book, anyone who was wrong about going in in the first place should be disqualified.

HotFlash @ 27

MayDaze @ 24

Great post, as usual, Christy. I thought it was revealed recently that Kissinger has been sneaking into the White House for a long time. If true, it explains a lot.

Same nights as Gannon or different ones?

“This is not a productive area of discussion.”
–Henry Kissinger’s head, “Futurama”

rwcole @ 28

Mary–You’re forgetting- he lies.

Good point. But he also has fixed ideas, and reality doesn’t seem to have much effect on the. Witness his new “bipartisanship” in the wake of his “thumping”–looks just like the old bipartisanship to me.

If Woodward’s account of Kissinger’s role in this bloody mess is accurate, then Clusterfuck would be well within his rights to thrash ol Henry to within an inch of his life.

To be one of the prime movers in the arrogant “stay the course” advice and then to bail out publicly when if doesn’t fuckin work- well that shows a lack of character almost beyond comprehension…

The end of the Kissinger story has a line somethin like “This comes from a person who (sorta) supports the president”

“There are a lot of lives that are lost,” Adelman said in an interview last week. “A country’s at stake. A region’s at stake. This is a gigantic situation. . . . This didn’t have to be managed this bad. It’s just awful.”

Better bring in Reuben Kincaid, then…That bus tire won’t change itself

;>)

The Bush oedipal drama — authoritarian martini-drinking mama, cold and ambitious dad, deadbaby sister, abandonment thereto, non-disclosure thereof — and its resonance in world affairs must end.

Earth — and her brutalized inhabitants — simply cannot afford W any longer. Let’s ring the curtain down to a weak “huzzah.”

Please, sir, get thee to a “ranch,” either in Crawford or Paraguay. No one wants you around anymore. Even your super neo-friends have abandoned you. Dr. K is speaking outta Da Oval — these are truly dangerous trends.

Go. Tarry Not. We’ll send along anything you need.

Clusterfuck doesn’t see truth or reality in any traditional sense. He sees battles of ideology clashing through a surrealistic world- words are just politics in his world- they either help or hinder the ideological struggle.

It may one day become clear just what sort of goofball this guy is- but america couldn’t handle finding out the truth about his while he’s still in office.

scarecrow @ 30

Oklahoma kiddo @
6

Are we prepared to say a necessary condition for supporting the Democratic candidate for president in 2008 is that she or he advocate pulling American G.I.’s out of Iraq?

In my book, anyone who was wrong about going in in the first place should be disqualified.

Agreed. And it considerably simplifies things. So who’s left?

Too bad Salvador Dali is no longer with us. He could have done a great window into Bush’s world.

Christy:

PS — Seems to me that the GOP is in a helluva lot more disarry these days than the Dems. The neocons entire plan for Iraq has completely run * DIPLOMATIC MEMO; On to Vietnam, Bush Hears Echooff the road and into a big ditch filled with flaming oil, no one wants to sit at the kiddie table with Bushie (loyalty? not!), and Trent Lott has reclaimed his white sheet covered power chair. You want to write a story about infighting disarray and lack of planning, you might check with the Republican party. I’m just saying.

That’s pretty much what Frank Rich says in his op-ed today (behind the wall):

Rich: Who’s Divided? Final paragraphs:

So what then? A Democratic Congress can kill judicial appointments but cannot mandate foreign policy. The only veto it can exercise is to cut off the war’s funding, political suicide that the Congressional leadership has rightly ruled out. The plain reality is that the victorious Democrats, united in opposition to the war and uniting around a program for quitting it, have done pretty much all they can do. Republican leaders must join in to seal the deal.

Don’t count Mr. McCain among them. His call for more troops even when there are no more troops is about presidential politics, a dodge that allows him to argue in perpetuity that we never would have lost Iraq if only he had been heeded from the start. True or not, that gets America nowhere now. Look instead to two other Republican military veterans in the Senate, one who is not running for president and one who yet might. The first is John Warner, who said a month before the election that he would seek an overhaul of Iraq policy in 60 to 90 days if there was no progress. The second is Chuck Hagel, who has been prescient about the war’s potential pitfalls since 2002 and started floating exit strategies parallel to the Levin-Biden track last summer.

There’s an incentive for other Republicans to join them in advancing the endgame. Even if the Democrats self-destructively descend into their own Abramoff-style scandals — Mr. Murtha referred to House ethics reforms as “total crap” — that may not be enough to save the Republicans if they’re still staring down the bloody barrel of their Iraq fiasco in 2008.

But most of all, disengagement from Iraq is the patriotic thing to do. Diverting as “divided Democrats” has been, it’s escapist entertainment. The Washington story that will matter most going forward is the fate of the divided Republicans. Only if they heroically come together can the country be saved from a president who, for all his professed pipe dreams about democracy in the Middle East, refuses to surrender to democracy’s verdict at home.

Steve Clemons (TWN) has a sort of inside the establishment report (somewhat disingenous perhaps) on how depressing it is now that the administration depravity has turned from infection to rot,and the truth is painfully emerging, with few places to run and hide. Some will abandon ship, some will keep a low profile, some will continue to be the good soldiers:

http://www.thewashingtonnote.c…..001781.php

Iraq’s deputy health minister kidnapped from home

twolf

Sounds unhealthy.

Thanks for this one Christy.

First, pointing out the usual fair and balanced deal:
Reagan’s 6th yr = Iran/Contra (illegal unConstitutional immoral)
Bush’s 6th yr. MUCH WORSE.
Clinton’s 6th yr. lying about infidelety.
——–
…”This didn’t have to be managed this bad….”

Playing the incompetent execution card. The ‘idea’ itself is not to blame.

There was a comment yesterday about ‘Treason of the Hawks’ that captures how I feel about such slithering. The PR/propaganda/intel-failure was orchestrated perfectly. No problem with execution on that. Management of that was quite professional. They got just what they asked for. This pisses me off no end. denying responsiility. Just say, “I thought it would work. (etc) I guess I was wrong, and we should leave as soon as something can be worked out.” I think THAT was the ‘meaning’ of Nov. 7 (Polling from about a year ago shows the ‘credibility gap’ – in the words of one (R) pollster familiar with the break-in that brought down a 49 state winner – “Trust is like virginity; once you lose it, you can never get it back.”

I think people believed. Now, they know they were lied to. And they are pissed.
–
Folks are talking about ‘08 war platform. While it may be true we’ll have no choice, I’m gonna work for disengagement prior to Nov. ‘08 and I encourage all others to do the same.

Which House committee directly funds this?
Armed Services? Ways and Means?

Recent Pew Poll shows the slow but steady shift of public opinion about Iraq..

Was it the right decision to go into Iraq?

Right 41% Wrong 51%

Finally a majority for wrong decision

Should we stay in Iraq until it’s stable- or leave?

Stay 46% leave 48%

Funally a plurality for leaving (albeit very narrow) but not a majority yet.

These latest stories are going to push those numbers and when we get to 60% “leave” there will be no stopping the train.

This is the same bastard who embraced Cheney as they both cried tears of joy when the invasion began.

A Captain’s Journey from Hope to just getting her unit home.

NYT lengthy story, front page, about a US captain who heads a police training unit in Iraq — slowing coming to the realization that they are failing and the only thing now is to get home unharmed.

The NYT has been running a series of stories, almost every day, along the theme of disillusionment, as reality sinks in.

twolf1 at 41: Note the language in the most recent story about “people in police uniforms kidnapped the Iraqi minister.” Perhaps the next breakthrough will be stories saying that “Members of the Iraqi police today kidnapped X number of Sunnies/Shiites, under apparent orders from the Interior Ministry.” Instead, we still get stories, as Steve Gilliard noted recently that say, “People in Iraqi police uniforms and driving police trucks today, [but presumable not the police themselves] kidnapped . . .” We are still clinging to the last vestiges of hope.

Christy – awesome morning of posts!

and folks – don’t miss Book Salon today! and grab and speedread your copy of Life in the Emerald City! amazing book, amazing view into the insanity of this war from the very first days!

Wonder if anyone’s done a study on what has to happen before a country becomes willing to accept a military defeat? Leaving too early can be very dangerous–it was the perception that the WW1 surrender was premature by Germany that created Hitler.

Apparetly the 10 years in VietNam was enough to convince most americans that it was time to leave- and we see little regret about Korea (although there was surely a squall about it at the time..

Have we gone long enough in Iraq for most americans to accept defeat? Probably not quite- but we’re gettin real close.

Just as americans needed to be prepared for war- they need to be prepared for defeat. This is a tricky business- and MOST difficult when the president refuses to take part.

Clusterfuck is going to leave no option but to demonize him personally- it’s the only way that the preparation can happen in the face of his intransigence–then the preparation can continue….

Yer move Clusterfuck!

Durin the Lebanon incursion, Israel complained that civilian deaths were a result of cynical Hebollah putting their rock launchers in populated areas. Now the Palestians have turned that argument on its head.

In this NYT story, Protesters Force Israel to Halt Airstrikes, civilians surrounded the home of a Palestian official who was the apparent target of airstrikes — forcing the Israelis to stop. Tienanmen Square in Gaza.

And is anyone annoyed that the article continues the myth of “denounce his behavior with an intern”?

She HAD been an intern, she wasn’t at the time of the ‘behavior’. But ‘with an intern’ is just too spicy for the press to resist. ‘Behavior with a low-level staff member’ just doesn’t do the trick.

scarecrow @ 50

Durin the Lebanon incursion, Israel complained that civilian deaths were a result of cynical Hebollah putting their rock launchers in populated areas. Now the Palestians have turned that argument on its head.

In this NYT story, Protesters Force Israel to Halt Airstrikes, civilians surrounded the home of a Palestian official who was the apparent target of airstrikes — forcing the Israelis to stop. Tienanmen Square in Gaza.

Yes!

Just as the build up to war was a propoganda effort- so to must the preparation for defeat be a propoganda effort- it must play on sensibilities- not rational thought. If it’s well orchestrated- we’ll be ready to withdraw in six months.

scarecrow @ 50

Durin the Lebanon incursion, Israel complained that civilian deaths were a result of cynical Hebollah putting their rock launchers in populated areas. Now the Palestians have turned that argument on its head.

In this NYT story, Protesters Force Israel to Halt Airstrikes, civilians surrounded the home of a Palestian official who was the apparent target of airstrikes — forcing the Israelis to stop. Tienanmen Square in Gaza.

I’m wondering whether this tactic will continue to work, or whether Ohmert and company will just decide to say “Aw, screw the civilians.”

Redd–Look at the photo of Bush shown at Huffington with the “only came out of hotel for 15 minutes” story. If that one isn’t worth a thousand words!!!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

The story from Palestine is so wonderful! the BBC had great audio from the scene last night:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6162494.stm

I’d love to have that Hanoi photo of Bush along with the 50,000 foot photo of him looking at the Katrina devastation from airforce one- as a framed set. Tells the whole story.

EvilDrPuma @
54

scarecrow @ 50

Durin the Lebanon incursion, Israel complained that civilian deaths were a result of cynical Hebollah putting their rock launchers in populated areas. Now the Palestians have turned that argument on its head.

In this NYT story, Protesters Force Israel to Halt Airstrikes, civilians surrounded the home of a Palestian official who was the apparent target of airstrikes — forcing the Israelis to stop. Tienanmen Square in Gaza.

I’m wondering whether this tactic will continue to work, or whether Ohmert and company will just decide to say “Aw, screw the civilians.”

Both sides already crossed that line, just as we have in our bombing of suspected al Qaeda houses/meetings in several Me countries even though we knew that civilians would be killed. The difference in Gaza was apparently the press exposure. There were cameras taking pictures of the population surrounding the home in Gaza.

No matter what else you have to say about Henry Kissinger is that he is really on top of things. Here he is out in front once again saying that Iraq is unwinnable. Well, all I have to say is thanks, Henry. We would never have known without you.

The subtext is, of course, in Kissingonese: He’s signaling his support for a coup against Maliki.

1,338 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Patriots:

While I want to sit back a gloat jest a bit over the apparent disintegration of the fascist war machine and it’s enabeling vehicle, the Republican Party, I am given pause and more than some worry about the lack of anything like a “moderate” alternative within the Republican Party in the wake of the November 7th Gettesburg their party suffered.

Probably in every failed endeavor that Bush has conjured up there comes this time when the co-conspirators turn against him. I wonder want his modus op is historically.
Does he fold into himself or does he lash out to cause injury to real and perceived traitors? I hope Big Daddy has someone watching this boy.

scarecrow @ 58

Both sides already crossed that line, just as we have in our bombing of suspected al Qaeda houses/meetings in several Me countries even though we knew that civilians would be killed. The difference in Gaza was apparently the press exposure. There were cameras taking pictures of the population surrounding the home in Gaza.

Points well taken. I’m glad this worked, and I’d be happy to see it continue, but I’m not sure if even the threat of bad press will keep it working for very long.

Norske— Yeah it’s interesting. The goopers killed off most of their moderates- and the dems just polished off the rest!!

That doesn’ mean that there aren’t still gooper moderate voters- there are- but they have no one to vote for…

Dems could conceivably do the same thing- leaving the great unwashed middle of americans without representation from EITHER party..Talk about irony!

Here’s a recent account of an earlier bombing of a house by Israel:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6156312.stm

Mary McCurnin @ 61

Probably in every failed endeavor that Bush has conjured up there comes this time when the co-conspirators turn against him. I wonder want his modus op is historically.
Does he fold into himself or does he lash out to cause injury to real and perceived traitors? I hope Big Daddy has someone watching this boy.

Doesn’t he generally cash out and leave others to clean up his mess?

The neocons had pretty much their way with Bremner. That was when their spawn was being shunted into high positions, eg. Ledeens’s daughter, in the occupation admin. They thought they’d instal their man, Ahmed Chalabi, into leadership, but Sistani had other ideas. So, either go with Chalabi or get into a pissing match with Sistani and the Shias on behalf of Judith Miller’s favorite canary.

Is there a more disgusting display of pure slime than neocon war criminals shedding crocodile tears and shifting blame? Of course, nobody except the media is naive on purpose enough to buy it.

I just want to know one thing–

Why aren’t all the Sunday morning discussion panels on TV dominated by people who were right about the war in the first place?

Christy:

Thanks for the update on the ongoing serial: “Rats Leaving the Sinking Ship”

Question: Why is President Sot-Head so insistent on continuing the “Stay the Course” message in Vietnam of all places?

This moron is so ass-breakingly stupid that this irony goes right over his pointed head.

If ya want to convince the american people that the war is unwinnable and that the US will be forced to withdraw- then you have to use people who were originally for it- their testimony is much more compelling. Make no mistake- that’s what’s happeining right now- we’re bein sold out of Iraq.

C’mon get happpy!

It’s quite likely that both GW Clusterfuck and Ticky Dick Cheney are certifiable and that although they’ve been talked to by the powers that be- they refuse to budge- hence what we are seeing.

Re Gaza,

There is a difference between civilians who are killed “incidentally” during a military operation, even when the likelihood of such deaths is high, and unarmed civilians who knowingly and deliberately stand up to armed soldiers. The one can be swept under the carpet or rationalized away as “collateral damage”. The other is civil disobedience and sends an enormously powerful message. I have always thought that such acts of civil disobedience held a far greater potential for confronting Israel and winning recognition and rights for Palestinians than terrorism or low grade armed resistance.

DonS @
40

Steve Clemons (TWN) has a sort of inside the establishment report (somewhat disingenous perhaps) on how depressing it is now that the administration depravity has turned from infection to rot,and the truth is painfully emerging, with few places to run and hide. Some will abandon ship, some will keep a low profile, some will continue to be the good soldiers:

http://www.thewashingtonnote.c…..001781.php

A truly sobering story. The sad irony is that it is almost a relief to read that the nation’s elite at least privately concede how bad things are. If they were still in denial, it would be worse. But why aren’t they saying this publically? The American people sense that we’re in an awful mess, even if they don’t follow the details; why not be straight with them?

Crow–we’re winning. This is how winning looks!

Doesn’t he generally cash out and leave others to clean up his mess?

Maybe this time the cashier will point out that he’s overdrawn, his letter of credit has been canceled by daddy, and there are some folks who would really like to know how he intends to pay.

Why is it “accepted” by even a few people that we and Israel conduct routine assassinations of leaders???

In Beit Hanoun on November, women were gunned down for protecting members of the “resistance”. The world press was not complimentary to the IDF. Perhaps the Palestinians practicing non violent resistance today will be more successful.

I fervently hope so.

“cash out”

Yep- first time around he was cashed out by the Bin Laden family—strange?

Dunno- Israelis seem to have a high tolerance for peaceful demonstrations- remember the pancake incident?

I think the Democrats are well placed to take up the slack left by the imploding GOP.

The GOP is still tacking hard-right, witness McStain.

That is why despite all of his warts, Rudy Giuliani is playing his cards perfectly….

If he does a mid season flip-flop and quits abortion, gays and gun control, the party is doomed.

Just the numbers of young voters and their polling and the GOP smearing of the Latino nation will seal their fate.

The Democrats still have to do a better job of exposing the GOP machine to the voters and prove just how diabolical and anti-democratic they had become.

We don’t want asswipe progeny of Pearle, Cheney and Goldberg whining about “who lost Iraq”.

Bush and his Republican Rubber Stamp Party lost it the day they lied to get us in.

-GSD

scarecrow @
30

CNN — Adelman, former Bush speechwriter David Frum, and some other neocon were interviewed by Wolf Blitzer. They all lamented how badly the war was waged, but none lamented their advocacy for starting it.

And which just shows what little men they are; they have no strength as men or people. When reading this, I was thinking of Mr. Chandrasekaran’s book;I’m just about done with it. It’s appalling – not the book, but ‘the story.’

I have a friend who is a prison chaplain in Washington, and she talks about how narrow the lives of the inmates become as compared to ours in which someone becomes incensed over a remark and becomes obsessed with rectifying it. Reading Mr. Chandrasekaran’s book reminded me of that same narrowed mentality.

NorskeFlamethrower @ 60

1,338 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Patriots:

While I want to sit back a gloat jest a bit over the apparent disintegration of the fascist war machine and it’s enabeling vehicle, the Republican Party, I am given pause and more than some worry about the lack of anything like a “moderate” alternative within the Republican Party in the wake of the November 7th Gettesburg their party suffered.

Norske – give it time. Fissures will start to appear in the Republicans after the session starts. The Bush/Rove machine has lost not only it’s luster but, much more important to these sleazeballs, it’s ability to apportion pork. The threats and intimidation will now have to center on campaign funding only. As Bush becomes less popular, his ability to draw such funding will wither.

GSD

Wow that’s a content rich post – and exactly right on all cylinders.

Even the Federalist Society has to address the inanity of the unilateral executive.

At a spirited panel discussion Friday with Professor Yoo, one of the revered figures of the group, Prof. Richard Epstein of the University of Chicago Law School, branded as dangerous the notion of expanded powers for the executive branch because of the continuing fight against terrorism.

“This is an issue which splits this group right down the middle,” Professor Epstein said.

Time to pop a second batch.

scarecrow @ 73

A truly sobering story. The sad irony is that it is almost a relief to read that the nation’s elite at least privately concede how bad things are. If they were still in denial, it would be worse. But why aren’t they saying this publically? The American people sense that we’re in an awful mess, even if they don’t follow the details; why not be straight with them?

Most of our nation’s policy elite have been co-opted. If you look at the experts in the Iraq Study Groups working groups, you will see a whole skein of interlocking connections between a handful of think tanks and centers. They are all quite comfy, thank you very much, moving from university to center to government and back again. They write papers with oblique references and delphic forebodings but lead a public crusade? Take a public stand and back it up? Tarnish their reputations among their colleagues or upset the gravy train? I don’t think so.

1,338 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..

Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Patriots:

While I want to sit back and gloat jest a bit over the apparent disintegration of the fascist war machine and it’s enabeling vehicle, the Republican Party, I am given pause and more than some worry about the lack of anything like a “moderate” alternative within the Republican Party in the wake of the November 7th Gettysburg their party suffered.

I am afraid that when we look at what has happened to our politics in the last 6 years, we see that there is no antithesis to the fascist consolidation of power within the Republican Party …that is, there is no “moderate” or traditional conservative base left within what is left of the elected leadership in the reichparty. This leaves the corporate bosses and their masters in the oligarchy the choice of trying to co opt a base in the Democratic Party thru concessions on the war and domestic economic and social policy or to throw in once and for all with the fascist remnants of the Republican Party. Let’s look at the resurgence of Klucker Lott and the goose-stepping of McCain into the hands of Aryan Nation…I am reminded of the same choice the oligarchy in Germany was faced with in 1932-33 and they went with the fascist that they thought they could control. The most organized political force in America right now is the fascist leadership in the Republican Party, and they have the money and the media.

The good folks are a long way from victory here… I think we are closer to an overt coup than most are willing to acknowledge and in order to avoid it we are gunna need the corporatists (Clintonistas) in the Democratic Party to stand up for the progressives. Needless to say, I ain’t optimistic about Mrs. Clinton using her political weight to influence the oligarchy to which she aspires to do the right thing.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE STRUGGLE IS NEVER OVER!!!

rwcole @
48

Wonder if anyone’s done a study on what has to happen before a country becomes willing to accept a military defeat? Leaving too early can be very dangerous–it was the perception that the WW1 surrender was premature by Germany that created Hitler.

Apparetly the 10 years in VietNam was enough to convince most americans that it was time to leave- and we see little regret about Korea (although there was surely a squall about it at the time..

Have we gone long enough in Iraq for most americans to accept defeat? Probably not quite- but we’re gettin real close.

My guess is that it is more about conditions after the defeat than before.

“I think that’s reality. I think that was true from the beginning,” Kissinger said in an interview last week.

I don’t know…Henry talking about reality is a switch.

Yeah the goopers are leaving the middle unguarded- unless ROO-DEE can somehow get past the gooper primaries- but he might as well run as Satan as far as the religious right is concerned. I can’t see it happening…

Romney? Maybe- but that would require evangelicals to swallow a mormon—a group they regard as a “SECT” not a branch of christianity…

Interesting.

Rove’s Frankenstein Gooper party has never really been tested in a presidential election..

Clusterfuck ran as a MODERATE. He tried to position himself so close to Gore that the voters couldn’t tell the difference. He offered few clues about how he would actually govern. In 2004- it was all about 9/11- and the hysteria was still streaming.

Now the gooper party if faced with a pickle- anyone who gets through the primaries can’t be elected- or so it appears.

Norske,

As willing as I am to believe that Bush/Cheney and their Dead End Gang would be more than willing to march a batallion into congress and claim “the world is ours”, I have as much faith that the US military will have none of it.

Bush could have pulled off something like that a few years ago. Now, it couldn’t happen because they would either be laughed out of town or they’d get the Mussolini/Ceaucescu treatment.

That much you can rest assured.

-GSD

RW,

This last election was do or die and they died. In order to hang onto power, they trashed their future.

Gays—gone. Blacks—-except for Mike’s Tyson and Steele, gone. Latino’s—gone….Libertarians…gone…

The hope of peeling off portions of these groups to continue with a governing majority be it ever so small was ruined by Rove. Ruined!

When that really seeps in, Rove better take a vacation.

-GSD

GSD

Hmmm– that’s pretty crip thinking..Read through it a couple of times- seems right to me.

Angie … scanning the Beeb and Al Jazeera today, it appears the one palestinian house remains protected by neighbors but meanwhile the Israelis bombed a car carrying a palestinian leader as it pulled away from a mosque on streets crowded by people leaving the services at that mosque … so civilized, what?

I’m with you on the issue of “assasinations” … seems to me the Church commission created quite a stir by pointing out that “strategy” but now it’s just fine for Israel and the US

We may see the gooper pary goin through “agonizing reappraisal” as they begin to realize that Rove’s “permanent majority” wasn’t all that permanent…

The religious right is a giant sea anchor to the gooper party.. They give em a lot of votes- but not enough to win without the middle- and the middle has a growin distate for the “shiavos”.

Zealots- can’t win with em- can’t win without em!

Wordsmith @ 87

“I think that’s reality. I think that was true from the beginning,” Kissinger said in an interview last week.

I don’t know…Henry talking about reality is a switch.

Via Steve Clemons again, a BBC interview where we have Kissenger inserting into the “debate” some increasing latitude to save shrub’s butt. They’re at least looking for some newish talking point for the State of the Union perhaps?

That is why I was so stunned with the election strategy taken…..

It was just so scorched earth that it defied logic to me…

Then again, the man responsible for taking Bush from 90% approval to 31% defies logic when you hear him called a genius.

-GSD

rwcole @
53

Just as the build up to war was a propoganda effort- so to must the preparation for defeat be a propoganda effort- it must play on sensibilities- not rational thought. If it’s well orchestrated- we’ll be ready to withdraw in six months.

Here’s how you do it:

Version 1 — GW on national TV, pref in uniform,: “My brave troops, it’s time to bring you home.” Applause. Take photos/videos taken for the evening news with tears slipping out of his eyes. GW goes inside and has tomato soup and a cheese sandwich, helps (sort of) put his army men back into their footlocker, has milk and cookies and takes his nap. Airlift begins.

Version 2 — (costs more for special effects — do we have budget?) Entire (?) GWBush administration is raptured out. Airlift begins. Cast?

HotFlash

Tricky part is that Clusterfuck may not co-operate (although I suspect that he’ll “see the light” after Baker bangs him across the head with a 2×4.

Sen. John McCain . . .said Sunday the U.S. must send an overwhelming number of troops to stabilize Iraq or face the possibility of more attacks in the region and on American soil.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..co/us_iraq

McCain then, no doubt, took out the magical hat from which he was going to pull this “overwhelming number of troops,” which don’t exist except in his fevered mind.

It is amazing that characters like McCain still try to sell this brand of horse hockey and aren’t immediately booed and hissed from whatever venue or stage they deliver it from.

Oh yes, John, that “fight them over there so we don’t have to fight them here” always had this one little flaw. Just because we are fighting them over there, never meant they still couldn’t attack us here. But I am sure an intelligent man like yourself knew that you were just making a cheap, rhetorical flourish, right, John?

Hugh @ 84

scarecrow @ 73

A truly sobering story. The sad irony is that it is almost a relief to read that the nation’s elite at least privately concede how bad things are. If they were still in denial, it would be worse. But why aren’t they saying this publically? The American people sense that we’re in an awful mess, even if they don’t follow the details; why not be straight with them?

Most of our nation’s policy elite have been co-opted. If you look at the experts in the Iraq Study Groups working groups, you will see a whole skein of interlocking connections between a handful of think tanks and centers. They are all quite comfy, thank you very much, moving from university to center to government and back again. They write papers with oblique references and delphic forebodings but lead a public crusade? Take a public stand and back it up? Tarnish their reputations among their colleagues or upset the gravy train? I don’t think so.

The picture you paint has no grownups. My hope all along has been that somewhere, there are adults, and sooner or later, they will step up. But this may be an illusion.

Wordsmith @ 87

“I think that’s reality. I think that was true from the beginning,” Kissinger said in an interview last week.

I don’t know…Henry talking about reality is a switch.

Via Steve Clemons again, a BBC interview where we have Kissenger inserting into the “debate” some increasing latitude to save shrub’s butt. They’re at least looking for some newish talking points for the State of the Union perhaps?

http://www.thewashingtonnote.c…..001788.php

Super OfT, but we just saw the very first-ever urban hummingbird stop by our garden. After 10-and-a-half months of stocking the feeders, planting fuschia and geraniums — to NO avail! But today, we saw a south-migrator!! S/he popped in to check out this year’s last geranium bloom, skipped over the fence to bop around the bougainvillea, then scooted outta sight.

My November couldn’t get better, then it did! Cold sweet potatoes this Thursday — thanks and blessings will be much too long-winded to eat hot food.

Once Clusterfuck realizes that the jig is up in Iraq- (which might be about to settle in) he will have two choices-

1) He can agree that it’s hopeless and support withdrawal- becoming a part of the solution.

2) He can claim that this is VietNam all over again and that the Commies are forcing this withdrawal with defeatist and pacifist behavior- thus setting the stage for a violent reaction from the right…

Yer move Clusterfuck

rwcole @ 98

HotFlash

Tricky part is that Clusterfuck may not co-operate (although I suspect that he’ll “see the light” after Baker bangs him across the head with a 2×4.

Yeah, that’s why I think he’ll like the part about the uniform and the tears. He can be their long-suffering Savior — properly put to him, he wont ba able to resist the part. Why settle for being Churchill if you can be remembered as Christ?

Crow- Well I don’t know if they’re adults- but we’ve got a culture of balance sheets and P and Ls. They understand 127 billion dollars a year and growing annually at a rate well above inflation.

of course, when their friends and investments are the recipients of all those dollars, the P&L is seen from a different perspective

Siun– like so many other outrages these days, our laws don’t seem to matter much to “them that’s got the power”.

;(

Clusterfuck’s favorite phrase is “I’m not gonna negotiate with myself”..It’s a business phrase he picked up in Dallas bars that he never understood in the first place.

He DOES, however, make it clear that he views solving the problem of Iraq on the model of selling a used car with a cracked block..

He’s an intellectual disaster of major proportions.

Yes you CAN be too stupid to be President.

They don’t need no stinkin’ badges.

-GSD

scarecrow @ 100

The picture you paint has no grownups. My hope all along has been that somewhere, there are adults, and sooner or later, they will step up. But this may be an illusion.

3 1/2 years of disaster. If there had been any grownups, I think they would have shown up by now. As it is, we have this kabuki of Bush I, Baker, the Iraq Study Group, and Bush II where everything is done through ellipsis and gestures with fans.

laws? what laws? after all, we’re at war here!

damn angie … it’s so maddening

Siun–Don’t think they’ve spread the money around enough to build consensus.

Corporate types are competitive. If someone’s gettin more than they are- they’re pissed- not supportive.

Charles Rangel plans on bringing the results of the Clusterfuck military strategy into every American’s homes.

Rangel talks of draft legislation.

Looks like someone is sitting on a pile of poker chips.

-GSD

Clusterfuck’s anwer to the problem in Iraq:

“Make me an offer”.

Fuckin shithead.

The neocons scurrying away from Bush is like the bank robbers blaming the incompetent getaway driver. How did such an anti American philosophy ever get to control the debate anyway? The Staussian “Noble Lie” is so antithetical to the American psyche and culture. We can’t just say we were duped, we were not paying attention. Where have the civics classes gone. Our security systems (education, vigilance) have been down for years.

TeddySanFran @
102

Super OfT, but we just saw the very first-ever urban hummingbird stop by our garden. After 10-and-a-half months of stocking the feeders, planting fuschia and geraniums — to NO avail! But today, we saw a south-migrator!! S/he popped in to check out this year’s last geranium bloom, skipped over the fence to bop around the bougainvillea, then scooted outta sight.

My November couldn’t get better, then it did! Cold sweet potatoes this Thursday — thanks and blessings will be much too long-winded to eat hot food.

Congratulations! I look forward to photos, once they move in they stay.

rwcole @ 71

It’s quite likely that both GW Clusterfuck and Ticky Dick Cheney are certifiable and that although they’ve been talked to by the powers that be- they refuse to budge- hence what we are seeing.

My point is that the “Iraq Study Group” is actually about succession. Look at who is on the committee, do you see a lot of military experience there? It’s mostly people with heavy duty political experience.

WHY INCLUDE DEMOCRATS OTHERWISE?

sofistic @ 115

We can’t just say we were duped, we were not paying attention. Where have the civics classes gone. Our security systems (education, vigilance) have been down for years.

Did you see Maher this weekend? If not, you should. Richard Dreyfuss and the best civics primer in a long time.

GSD @ 113

Charles Rangel plans on bringing the results of the Clusterfuck military strategy into every American’s homes.

Rangel talks of draft legislation.

Looks like someone is sitting on a pile of poker chips.

-GSD

I find discussion of the draft unsettling. I understand the “fairness” issue, but the last thing this country needs is more fodder for whatever war our current leadership wants to engage in. Until the nation redefines the “war against terror” and defines a set of principles for the responsible use of military force (whatever that is), I prefer a smaller armed services. After all, McCain just might win the presidency; what would he do with another 200-300,000 troops?

HF — I really think this one’s migratory, but we’ve laid out a big welcome mat….

GSD at 113 Charles Rangel plans on bringing the results of the Clusterfuck military strategy into every American’s homes…

Well, there goes the Third Amendment :)

Re McCain calls for “more troops”–

There aren’t any more troops. Both Webb and Murtha have said so publicly. We will be hard pressed to keep the current level of troops going.

newtonusr @ 118

sofistic @ 115

We can’t just say we were duped, we were not paying attention. Where have the civics classes gone. Our security systems (education, vigilance) have been down for years.

Did you see Maher this weekend? If not, you should. Richard Dreyfuss and the best civics primer in a long time.

Thank you very much. I will look.

DonS @
101

Via Steve Clemons again, a BBC interview where we have Kissenger inserting into the “debate” some increasing latitude to save shrub’s butt. They’re at least looking for some newish talking points for the State of the Union perhaps?

http://www.thewashingtonnote.c…..001788.php

Via the link at ‘the washington note’ to a Washington Post article, Mr. K: But Kissinger, an architect of the Vietnam war who has advised President Bush about Iraq, warned against a rapid withdrawal of coalition troops, saying it could destabilize Iraq’s neighbors and cause a long-lasting conflict.

“A dramatic collapse of Iraq _ whatever we think about how the situation was created _ would have disastrous consequences for which we would pay for many years and which would bring us back, one way or another, into the region,” he said.

So…in other words, regardless of the lies repeated by those lying liars who are responsible for this debacle, we need to clean up their mess.

What’s Henry Kissinger have to gain by our staying in Iraq? Where are his $$$ placed?

new thread

There won’t be a draft- it will never make it’s way through congress and past the veto pen..

The draft can be a powerful weapon to restrain public opinion about a war- but VietNam went on for ten years with the draft providing the fodder- so it’s no cure all.

Rangel has raised the issue before – perhaps he’s tired of his constituents dying for W’s war while Jenna and notJenna party?

sofistic, lots of people were paying attention.

Too many did not believe some of us.

Voices were not heard, dissent was neither encouraged nor popular and was relegated to dining tables and private conversations among like minded folk and people who had respect for an alternative point of view.

A world view.

scarecrow @ 119

I find discussion of the draft unsettling. I understand the “fairness” issue, but the last thing this country needs is more fodder for whatever war our current leadership wants to engage in. Until the nation redefines the “war against terror” and defines a set of principles for the responsible use of military force (whatever that is), I prefer a smaller armed services. After all, McCain just might win the presidency; what would he do with another 200-300,000 troops?

The whole idea of a “fair” draft is nonsense. Rich kids will always find a way out. During Vietnam, the really well-off went into the Guard and the upper middle class went to college. The draft boards were politically, shall we say, sensitive.

I agree that a smaller military is necessary. Politically it won’t happen, at least in the short term. Too much pork is riding on “military preparedness”.

sofistic @ 123

newtonusr @ 118

sofistic @ 115

We can’t just say we were duped, we were not paying attention. Where have the civics classes gone. Our security systems (education, vigilance) have been down for years.

Did you see Maher this weekend? If not, you should. Richard Dreyfuss and the best civics primer in a long time.

Thank you very much. I will look.

OOPS!
I should have looked around – Aravosis has it, or chunks of it, at least…

http://americablog.blogspot.co…..eason.html

Wordsmith @ 124

DonS @
101

Via Steve Clemons again, a BBC interview where we have Kissenger inserting into the “debate” some increasing latitude to save shrub’s butt. They’re at least looking for some newish talking points for the State of the Union perhaps?

http://www.thewashingtonnote.c…..001788.php

Via the link at ‘the washington note’ to a Washington Post article, Mr. K: But Kissinger, an architect of the Vietnam war who has advised President Bush about Iraq, warned against a rapid withdrawal of coalition troops, saying it could destabilize Iraq’s neighbors and cause a long-lasting conflict.

“A dramatic collapse of Iraq _ whatever we think about how the situation was created _ would have disastrous consequences for which we would pay for many years and which would bring us back, one way or another, into the region,” he said.

So…in other words, regardless of the lies repeated by those lying liars who are responsible for this debacle, we need to clean up their mess.

What’s Henry Kissinger have to gain by our staying in Iraq? Where are his $$$ placed?

There is almost always a leap of faith, an unspoken assumption, in these “here are the choices” statements.

On the one hand, we are told that if we withdraw “precipitously” then there will be catastrophe/chaos/death. Therefore we should not withdraw at all.

But neither Kissinger or any one else can credibly predict what happens if we don’t withdraw. It may be that there will be “disastrous consequences for which we would pay for many years” no matter what. But no host ever asks the “experts” the follow up question.

If there is going to be a draft, then I propose that there is mandatory service for all. You can choose between the dept of peace or the dept of war, but you must serve before or after college.

NO exceptions at all. None.

If we are in a state of war, then members of the dept of peace are shifted over and vice versa.

I would support that.

Kissinger is with the “sit down and negotiate with Iran” crowd. That’s his solution (such as it is).

Still Super OfT-
Teddy congrats on the hummingbird. Your diligence was rewarded (analagous to certain firedoghummingbirders around here n’est-ce pas?).
I had a couple of pileated woodpeckers show up yesterday after not seeing any for 15 years.
Cool thing about that is I didn’t do crap for that except not cut the trees down (let’s see if the Democrats employ the same strategy for ‘08)

TeddySanFran @ 102

Super OfT, but we just saw the very first-ever urban hummingbird stop by our garden. After 10-and-a-half months of stocking the feeders, planting fuschia and geraniums — to NO avail! But today, we saw a south-migrator!! S/he popped in to check out this year’s last geranium bloom, skipped over the fence to bop around the bougainvillea, then scooted outta sight.

My November couldn’t get better, then it did! Cold sweet potatoes this Thursday — thanks and blessings will be much too long-winded to eat hot food.

there was no war in the first place
there was no surrender
after we collected the “deck of cards”
and found no wmd
we shoulda went home
mission “accomplished”
we didn’t
so we killed a lot of iraqis
and lost a lot of our soldiers
badly crippled even more
pissed on the geneva conventions
smeared our national and international reputation
bankrupted our country
and dishonored the constitution
heckuvajob
fuckwad

scarecrow @ 119

GSD @ 113

Charles Rangel plans on bringing the results of the Clusterfuck military strategy into every American’s homes.

Rangel talks of draft legislation.

Looks like someone is sitting on a pile of poker chips.

-GSD

I find discussion of the draft unsettling. I understand the “fairness” issue, but the last thing this country needs is more fodder for whatever war our current leadership wants to engage in. Until the nation redefines the “war against terror” and defines a set of principles for the responsible use of military force (whatever that is), I prefer a smaller armed services. After all, McCain just might win the presidency; what would he do with another 200-300,000 troops?

the last thread touched on this, too. i have to disagree with you. we need the draft, one with virtually no exemptions, especially for college students. we might not be in iraq right now if we’d had the draft in 2001. it’s not perfect but people pay a lot more attention to letting a war get started if every family, especially the upper middle class families have to send their children to the military. eighteen to twenty-three year olds would also be a lot more inclined to vote.

Hmm, a year or two of service to country for everyone. Of *course* females eligible as well as males. Conscription age could be voting age, I think, or if you volunteer to serve earlier, say 16, you qualify to vote. Just skylarking here, but fun. One year pd college for very year served? Open to any age?

The neocons entire plan for Iraq has completely run off the road and into a big ditch filled with flaming oil, no one wants to sit at the kiddie table with Bushie (loyalty? not!

great post Christi

the only thing I want to point out is that absolutely none of this is ‘hindsight”

every single thing that has gone wrong was predicted, from Powell telling bush “if you break it you own it”, Clark telling him him “invading Iraq would exacerbate the war on terror”, and the generals telling him there would definitely be an insurgency

what I’m saying is that nothing has “run off the road”, the entire process was off the road from the outset, everyone but the PNAC knew this was a ridiculous campaign.

I really don’t like giving anyone and excuse like “bush didn’t do the things that needed to be done”, the thing that needed to be done was we needed to fight terrorism, not Iraq

For the record, I did not put this up, but the ‘Draft ReddHedd’ movement is growing.

http://www.2008racetracker.com/page/WV-02