
Some days, the wait for a hearing transcript can seem like an eternity. Today is one of those days.
Turns out that there was a hearing on potential expert witness testimony in the Libby trial yesterday — and word is that Patrick Fitzgerald took the witness apart with her own research, footnote by footnote, assumption by assumption. So much so that, at times, members of the audience were shaking their heads…for nearly three hours of cross-examination.
When you use expert witness testimony on a theory or method which has not already been accepted by the courts as having a history of sound scientific basis within the court system (i.e. fingerprint identification testimony or DNA analysis or other such scientific evidence issues that you frequently see admitted), you have to present evidence to the presiding judge to show why that scientific method is sound and why the analysis ought to be considered trustworthy enough to be presented to a jury for their consideration during verdict deliberations. Commonly called the "Daubert standard," there are a number of issues to be addressed by the court in this — but let's just say that the science has to stand up to scrutiny and seem not only relevant to the proceedings, but also something that passes the common sense and intellectual standards that one should expect from this sort of testimony.
No science is perfect, and even things that are routinely admitted get challenged as new methods or interpretations come along, but by and large there are a few things that one looks for in a proposed expert:
In 2000, the Supreme Court approved amendments to the Federal Rules of Evidence relating to opinion evidence and expert testimony to conform to the "Daubert trilogy." In addition to amending Rules 701 and 703, Rule 702 now includes the additional provisions which state that a witness may only testify if, "1) the testimony is based upon sufficient facts or data 2) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods, and 3) the witness has applied the principles and methods reliably to the facts of the case."
According to news reports, Team Libby may have had some nightmares last night about the second prong of the Daubert test. From MSNBC:
…Fitzgerald's blistering, nearly three-hour, questioning of Loftus caused her to admit that some of her own findings about what juries know about memory were faulty and that some of her own research may have been flawed.Quoting from her own book "Witness for the Defense," Fitzgerald also confronted Loftus about how she might sway a jury if called to testify at trial. She had written that, "using my arsenal of subtle psychological tools" Loftus could make an impression on a jury about her perception about guilt or innocence.
Libby lawyer John Kline put Loftus on the stand to explain to Judge Reggie Walton – who must decide on whether to admit Bjork – that Loftus's 2006 study, based on a survey of 1000 D.C. jurors, found that most of those surveyed thought that memory could be likened to a "tape recorder." The perception the mind can remember like a recording device is not true according to some memory experts.
But Fitzgerald pointed out in his cross-examination that the study itself may have been skewed. Loftus admitted on the stand, after being picked apart by details from her own works, that the answers to some of the questions posed to jurors in the study actually prove exactly the opposite – that jurors can in fact use common sense to ascertain the effects of memory on witness testimony.
I cannot begin to tell you how difficult it is to trip up an expert witness on the stand, especially when you are doing cross-examination of someone who is considered to be a top expert in the field and who has had courtroom experience in prior cases for similar research material.
I have had two instances that have come even close in all the trial work that I have done: once, I made someone sniffle on the stand because they could not answer my questions (turns out they weren't such an "expert" after all) and the second one was when I got to literally pick apart the forensic expert on whom a murder defense rested for…get this…fly larvae analysis being used to determine an approximate time of death. (Yes, that's right, it was testimony about maggots. Being a lawyer, oh so fun.) I spent weeks devouring entomology tomes and forensic texts and studying every piece of information that this particular expert had written — and my successful cross-examination came into play primarily because opposing counsel had neglected to fill their expert in on a couple of key facts that were detrimental to their client's case — a big no-no.
Once I filled him in, while he was on the stand sitting in front of the jury in the witness box, the whole of his testimony changed in my favor — with the jury watching the entire thing, from start to finish, as we walked through his new set of calculations on a chalkboard the old fashioned way, step by step, so that I could document the guilt of the defendant using his own witness.
It was a glorious Perry Mason moment, and one so rare that we all just sat around afterward, stunned, because you almost never get an opening like that unless you (a) do all of your homework and check it five times over and (b) the stars align just right and your opposing counsel screws up.
So now I'm asking myself: who on Team Libby was assigned to read this particular expert witness' information, do her hearing preparation, and thought, in their wildest dreams, that Patrick Fitzgerald seemed like the sort of fella that didn't do all of his homework and then some? Because, as I have said before, the devil is in the footnotes — and Pat Fitzgerald evidently learned that lesson as well.
Fitzgerald challenged the validity of memory research. Citing footnotes in her publications, presenting conflicting statements and questioning her methodology, Fitzgerald got Loftus to acknowledge that a statement in one of her research papers was taken out of context and that a figure in one of her books was incorrect.
Brilliant. Just brilliant. That mathematics major from Amherst still comes in handy, I see.
That Fitzgerald was able to pick this memory testimony apart at its very inception — before a judge has even ruled on whether he will even allow any memory expert at trial in the first place, is an enormous blow to the Libby legal team. That Fitzgerald was able to do so with their first witness out of the box on the subject…priceless.
I'm not saying that Team Libby cannot call other witnesses and turn this around somehow, and rehabilitate the subject and the potential testimony, but this is really devastating for them. Especially since they started the hearing with one strike already. Judge Walton indicated to the courtroom before testimony began that he was predisposed against allowing such memory testimony, but that he would allow Team Libby to attempt to convince him otherwise.
At the outset of the procedural hearing, U.S. District Judge Reggie Walton indicated that he was not inclined to allow a memory expert to testify at the trial. Still, he allowed Libby's lawyers to present a witness to bolster their claim that memory experts would help in his defense.
That is a very steep hill to climb when you are starting out with the theory of your case hanging in the balance as defense counsel. Especially when, throughout the hearing, Judge Walton is asking the witness follow-up questions as well, and expressing skepticism about answers:
Throughout the hearing Judge Walton expressed skepticism on the findings of Dr. Loftus, suggesting that juries would not be able to use simple common sense in determining the effect of memory on the testimony of trial witnesses.
One finding in the work of memory experts is that, when interviewed as a group, jury's understanding of how memory is involved in trials actually improves. Walton asked, "could the jury deliberations make it more right?" Loftus reluctantly admitted to the judge that it could.
So, let me see if I understand this: Team Libby hired an expert to bolster the credibility of the memory expert they want to use at trial. Instead, she succeeded in solidifying the judges perception that juries usually end up getting it right most of the time, if they are given good information and time to talk amongst themselves about all of the evidence — thereby showing that the memory expert really isn't needed so much, because the jury can make up their minds themselves whether Scooter's hard job made him forget to follow the law or whether he's just a liar trying to cover his behind (and perhaps others as well).
Is that about it?
I cannot get my hands on this transcript soon enough. A prosecutor who eviscerates a witness on the stand using her own footnotes? Oh yeah, baby, man after my own legal heart. And Team Libby? They uncharacteristically had no comment as they left the courthouse yesterday.
Apparently the CIPA hearings are also ongoing, because Judge Walton closed the courtroom after the expert witness testimony portion for more closed door hearings on classified information. Whether they are still going over individual materials or now onto arguments about relevance and admissibility, I don't have any solid information. But given the sheer amount of material requested by Team Libby, it is likely to still take a while, I would imagine. Libby has unlimited fundage from his GOP cronies to keep this fight going indefinitely. Pat Fitzgerald has himself and a team of four or five attorneys, and a few folks on loan from the FBI, all of whom have full-time jobs with other US Attorney's offices or FBI offices as well.
Team Libby may have been hoping for some burnout and mistakes from Fitzgerald and his team. I think their first expert on the stand just got Patrick Fitzgerald's response on that.
I also have received copies of some of the more recent filings in the case, via Jeralyn and the person behind the PJF blog, but my tired brain has not been able to do the full analysis on them that they need. Am hoping to get to that this weekend for everyone, because I've been getting lots of requests for it from the legal beagles who know they are out there in the PACER system. I promise, as soon as I can, I'll hit them as well.
(H/T to reader "rbb" for the MSNBC article link. Why yes, that is an angry bear. Why do you ask?)
UPDATE: The WaPo has a great descriptive take on the hearing as well — huge thanks to Disgusted in St. Louis for the link.
Related posts:
- Mikva Spins Fitzgerald’s Spinning Lincoln Right Back
- Fort Hood Shooter’s Trial May Shed Light on NSA/CIA Domestic Spying
- Cheney’s Lawyer Already Leaked the Content of Cheney’s “Privileged” Interview
- Cheney’s Betrayal Made an IIPA Charge for Libby Possible
- Could Cheney’s Lawyer’s Leak Break through the Cloud over Cheney?





Spotlight








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About Firedoglake
Advanced search

Washington Post has this article about it, In the Libby Case, A Grilling to Remember
Fitz!
Wow. So the “Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel defense” just took a big hit, eh?
Team Libby’s whole defense is based on the idea that the factotum of the most powerful man in America is a blithering idiot. Well, he may be, but not in the way he wants us to think he is.
Disgusted at 0 — I missed that one. It’s gooooood. For everyone, do take a peek at the WaPo article on the hearing.
Christy, would that picture be you before coffee?
Balrog at 5 — you know, some mornings, Mr. ReddHedd might say yes. *g*
Good morning, Christy — that was up early! I have a lot to say about Loftus and Daubert, but I have to catch the train –
Bottom line, Loftus is OK, but out of her specialty
Daubert generally is only harshly applied to defense attorneys while prosecutors are often allowed to put up any junk scientist they like.
More in about an hour.
Cheers!
Perry Mason! Glad to see ya!
nice work at 530 in the morning, Redd!
awful smokey here in So Cal… bad, bad fire…
imm at 7 — I think it depends on the presiding judge, to be honest — I’ve seen a defense counsel limit testimony on a prosecutorial expert at times. But you are right, it is much more rare.
OC at 8 — well, for me it’s 8:30 am since I’m on the East Coast, but it feels like 5:30 am at the moment…coffee is just now getting brewed in our house.
As a testifying expert, I can only say WOW.
PJF playing on my field with my gear and my rules. He hands me my head.
Sounds like PJF did his homework, had a very good behind the scenes expert of his own and Ms. Lofton didn’t perform (a word I deliberately selected because every successful expert witness appearance is a performance) very well.
Cross transcript is sometimes pretty choppy and hard to follow, but I’d love to read it and would appreciate it if you could post a link when you get it.
Christy you seem so gracious on TV. Makes it hard to believe that there are people out there who have nightmares about you, but I guess there must be.
How’d you sleep Karl?
Thanks for the Patrick Fitzgerald fix. What’s the quote? The wheels of justice grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine?
coffee is good… dang! news just reported a new fire about 10 miles to the south of me… who are these creeps who set these things?
gonna be a nerve wracking day…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 10
Must be contagious — the early morning crew on TRex’s late night thread has been quieter than normal lately, too. Must be all those extra hours working with local campaigns and LTE writing! *g*
Jeez OldCoastie. Hope you stay safe.
carolyn at 12 — you know, by and large I am a fairly even-tempered, nice person, which always made that moment when I started hammering someone all the more startling for them on the stand, I think. It takes a lot to really get my blood boiling — but when it does, that red haired temper takes over. But it’s always in a sort of calm, methodical way, with a smile on my face — the officers that I used to work with in court got a big kick out of it. *g*
OC at 13 — you stay safe today, you hear me?
carolyn urban @ 15
we’ve had the fires come up within a couple miles in years past, but this area is very population dense with stucco walls and tile roofs – pretty “defensible” by fire dept. standards… but the puppies are home alone today and I work about an hour away… the winds are down this morning, so hopefully everything will be OK. The big fire out by Beaumont is the super bad one… 23,000 acres already.
HoOldCoastie @
18
we’ve had the fires come up within a couple miles in years past, but this area is very population dense with stucco walls and tile roofs – pretty “defensible” by fire dept. standards… but the puppies are home alone today and I work about an hour away… the winds are down this morning, so hopefully everything will be OK. The big fire out by Beaumont is the super bad one… 23,000 acres already.
Oh, that is scary. Sending safe wishes, OldCoastie.
OC — good thoughts your way today for you and your puppies.
puppies have their “uncle” fairly close by and I can escape work if things get bad…
still makes me nervous though… as long as the winds stay down, it’ll be good (and there are a lot of zillion dollar houses between the fire and me, so the fire will get the proper attention if it starts to move north)
Thank you for the Fitzy fix! Been a while, eh? What a great way to wake up!
The days I’m waiting for are at the end of next April (I think), which is when the current grand jury’s tenure is scheduled to end. Then we’ll know if this investigation is over or not.
Ginsu-like legal performance
I love it! thanks for the link!
OT –
The ‘go slow’ (for political purposes) IRS for Katrina victims
It’s nice to hear that Fitz is still doing the job despite all the efforts to say that Armitage’s admission of talking about Plame washes all the guilt away.
Christy, let me know if you got my email yesterday.
oxide at 23 — yeah, there hasn’t been a lot of public news on the case for the last month or so (as of my 9/27 update), because they have been so mired in the CIPA hearings which, clearly, have to go on behind closed doors for national security reasons. It’s tough to do any digging when everything is happening behind closed doors for a very good reason. *g*
Mornin Redd- it’s pretty early here- not even predawn.
Watched a few of the political shows yesterday and was struck by the fact that none of them wanted to talk about the dem lead in the election.
Tweety had Charlie Cook on for five minutes and did nothing but ask his opinion about commercials- which Charlie doesn’t consider himself an expert on. He IS an expert on how eolections are turning- but not ONE question of that subject. Thought it was interesting- as if the word is out from the White House- “don’t make this thing into a self fullfilling prophecy or we’re gonna get your asss”.
Sparcatus at 26 — I did. Just saw it in my in-box. Am trying to dig out from under the massive e-mails I got while I slept. (Aiiyeee — this election needs to hurry up and get here already!) But I’m psyched you were able to find more — I do wonder if there is anyone this cycle who could come close to that amount of cash just being handed out like that…
Christy,
Fascinating!
About a third of my professional work is forensic/EW, primarily workers compensation. I never cease to be amazed at the apparent lack of preparation by at least one of the parties in a case.
‘Libby’ is way out of my experience base,; however, with Fitz doing such a good job, does he risk giving away his subsequent strategy to impugne a particular EW?
rw at 28 — I noticed a little of that this morning on NPR as well, with the hosts trying to do that faux “even-handed” nonsense while talking with Mara Liasson and Ken Rudin. Ken was having none of it, though, and kept pointing out numbers and trends and facts — silly man!
Redd- Unfortunately my NPR station is doing their seasonal “begging” as my son puts it- so I don’t get anything from them- seems like they’ve been begging for weeks.
all right everyone, time to get started for the day… keep up the good fight!
I was a juror in 1999 or so and Professor Loftus’s former husband, also Professor Loftus, was one of our witnesses. I though he was kind of smarmy, but his testimony boiled down to saying that how firmly you believed something isn’t a function of how true it is. Made sense to me.
so the memory expert couldn’t remember that she had testified in a case involving Fitzgerald before?
http://www.cookpolitical.com/default.php
Charlie Cook’s latest- looks like a pretty big win coming in the house- who the hell knows about the senate.
Just over a week ta go and we’re down to “count em” time. Can’t wait!
tfitznc @ 30
No, his strategy has never been a secret. He laid it out for all to see at the press conference.
PatFitz is doing just what he said he would do. He has been playing this (like all his other cases) stright down the line.
He doesn’t win with strategy. He wins by following the facts and the law.
tfitznc at 30 — not really — you don’t get a tactical feel on something like that because they are just talking about the science of it. You can always get some feel for strategy, just because everyone leaves clues in how they ask the questions and what they are asking — but Libby’s attorneys would have already gotten some of that in pre-trial arguments and motions before testimony was even presented on this issue.
And, honestly, if they didn’t expect Fitzgerald to be overly prepared and paying attention to every little detail, they failed to do their homework on him. Anyone who has spent any time looking at how he has handled past cases should have known he’d be a tough cross-exam, and should have prepared their expert for it. No excuse for that — beyond sometimes you can’t do any more than that because your witness is what she is in terms of information, and you can’t ask someone to lie or make crap up for you on the stand, either.
You are right, there is always one side that is better prepared and, thus far, that has been Fitz in this case. I’m really impressed, and that does not happen easily for me.
Will be interesting to see if Clusterfuck goes to his pardon bag after the election.
The political consequences of a Libby Trial would be pretty bad for him- but his political standing is so shaky right now- maybe it wouldn’t hurt much.
Redd,
great great post.
I agree with your line about Team Libby trying to throw so much work at Team Fitz that either burnout or just mistakes from having too much to do and no time to do it might occur.
Glad to see that pat is turning in his usual high quality work product.
Drooling for the transcript.
Ah, Christy, thanks for this post. Don’t know how you do it. If you could just bottle that stamina, I’ll take a case.
Christy and Looseheadprop-
Thank you, I learned something this morning!
New AP poll out about Goopers losing the middle class.
Why the hell is everyone interested in the middle class all of a sudden? Lou Dobbs effect?
Don’t know if this is something real or bullshit- but if “middle america” goes dem- goopers are fucked.
Oh, and by the way, my Mom, three brothers and my dear sister are all redheads. Been there, done that!
Great. That’s only the third email I’ve written from that account…and I’ve never had a response to that account before. Not that it shouldn’t work like any other, but who knows.
Yes, this election is absolutely destroying my business. Man am I pissed.
I used to work in government and the kind of shit these people have been getting away with so blithely would have gotten me fired a thousand times.
I still can’t believe the number of times I had to cite proper authority and fill out paper work reduction act estimates for time required for trying to do BS little items. How do they estimate the amount of time it will take for a citizen to complete a torture session?
ARGH!
rwcole says
October 27th, 2006 at 6:25 am*
Will be interesting to see if Clusterfuck goes to his pardon bag after the election.
damn it all, that’s the first thing I thought of too when I read about Fitz’s performance. If it is, as it appears, a harbinger of things to come, Bush now has more incentive to just shut the whole damn thing down.
Hopefully, that’ll be the end of my pessimism for today.
rw…
Lou Dobbs makes my teeth hurt but I have to grudgingly applaud his rhetoric when it comes to his “war on the middle class” stuff–I think it’s working too. And his focusing on hackable voting machines is acceptable. HATE his immigration blather, except for the bit about going after those darn employers.
I think if I were the Libby team member who was supposed to prep for this hearing, I would have not slept a wink last night.
Will be interested to read the transcript – sounds like Fitzgerald was in the zone and on fire. I would have loved to have seen it live, not only for the thrill of seeing it unfold and fall apart, but to have been able to see the faces and take note of the body language of those on both teams. You know there has to have been one moment when Team Irving was struck as a group with the thought, “Oh, shit; we’re toast,” and as things continued, realized that it wasn’t going to be lightly browned toast, but a blackened, smoking hunk of charcoal.
Hee hee.
And now, a moment of reverse concern trolling:
If I were calling the shots for Scooter Libby’s defense, I would be demanding a radical change in tactics, effective immediately. It should be obvious to any competent defense attorney (because it’s obvious to me, and I’m no defense attorney of any quality) that the shuck-and-jive O. J. Simpson-style game-playing is NOT working now and WILL NOT work against Fitzgerald in trial.
Martha– Lou was doin an immigration special a couple of nights ago and invited some hispanic leaders who reamed him a new one- he wished that he was somewhere else- my wife said “Who IS that asshole?” (Dobbs)
Loftus usually testifies in cases where the prosecution is based on recovered memories. In those cases, she’s defending common sense against a weakly supported theory, so she would be less subject to challenge, no?
Sounds like she got greedy & stepped out of her comfort zone.
Elizabeth Loftus has done a lot of work and research in the area of manufactured memories. She showed that people could be convinced to remember something that didn’t happen. She has testified in cases where witnesses ‘remembered’ something that was most likely planted by a therapist. In general, I think she has done a lot of good work in debunking some bad trends in psychology.
It is too bad that she got drawn into this Libby case, because she is on the wrong side with this one.
rw…sorry I missed that one! I like the AP’s new poll (more people are going to vote dem) and I was pleasantly surprised about the poll regarding MJFox’s ad and it’s impact on dem, repug, and indy voters (more likely to support stem cell research).
On topic too: mr. martha asked me last night whatever happened to Fitz…now I know and I too can’t wait for the transcript!
Anne at 49 — I have had so many of those “oh, shit” moments at trial — where a witness completely changes their story on the stand and folds or a police officer shows up completely unprepared, no matter how many times you’ve told him to read and re-read the police report…it’s a nightmare. And you just have to sit there and watch it. I’m thinking that Team Irving had a bad day yesterday, and I’m really anticipating this transcript — I want to see what the direct exam from Libby’s lawyers was like, whether they pulled the expert along and coached answers out or what. Because if, as Imm says, she was testifying about an area outside her normal expertise, that should prove to be a very interesting read.
jayt @ 47
Maybe that’s one of the reasons that PJF thus far only has indicted Libby.
How many successive cases can PJF bring which will require more pardons? (Especially with Dems having subpoena power in Congress.)
Downpuppy at 52 and Dan at 53 — yeah, those recovered memory cases are really, really tough and it is a horrid trend for so many reasons, not the least of which because young kids (who so often are pulled into those sorts of cases in custody disputes and otherwise) deserve much better than having someone plant some horrid memory in their heads that they will then have to spend a lifetime trying to get out.
The defense won’t be “staying the course”?
Jack
Christy Hardin Smith @ 55
If she was outside her normal expertise, shame on her and the Libby legal team. She and Libby got what they deserved.
Kinda makes you wonder if there will be some sort of late in the year surprise in this one.
Christy Hardin Smith @ 57
Here’s a story from the Seattle Times about Elizabeth Loftus, who did most of her groundbreaking work at the U of Washington.
http://archives.seattletimes.n…..=professor questions study
OT, and possibly already pointed out elsewhere, but: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usbritainiraqmilitary
LONDON (AFP) – An Al-Qaeda terror suspect captured by the United States, who gave evidence of links between Iraq and the terror network, confessed after being tortured, a journalist told the BBC.
So part of our justification for Iraq was based on bad information acquired by torture. And now he’s disappeared.
I also agree that Loftus has done some outstanding work with the Innocence Projects throughout the United States. I was able to work with her briefly while I was in law school working on an innocence case that dealt with faulty eye witness testimony. What is very difficult, as a defense lawyer, is to convince any judge that an expert CAN actually educate a jury on how your memory isn’t actually the finest tool in the shed for recording actual events. I agree it is unfortunate she got drawn into this case, but that’s more likely because she’s the best in the country and Team Libby certainly has the resources to bring her in (unlike my public funded university which was trying to overturn wrongful murder convictions…she got pricey).
So, I’m torn here. I think there is a place in the court room for this type of testimony, and I will respectfully disagree with Christy’s gleeful dance that Loftus was apparently decimated on the stand. I found her to be gracious and professional and hardly a faulty expert.
Ascender @ 62
It appears that she was called as a witness to validate the other witness who would actually testify at trial.
I agree that it is hard to find any joy in having Ms. Loftus credentials shredded.
I would be surprised that any diligent lawyer couldn’t pick apart a “memory expert.” Memory is so subjective; too subjective an experience to systematize. But to try on Fitz with this kind of smoke and mirrors is just stupid. They are grasping at straws to put doubt in jurors’ minds.
Forensic experts who deal with actual crime scene materials are one thing. But applying what amounts to forensics to memory is bogus on the face of it. What bosh.
Christy, It was great to read that the axis of evil got a smack up side the head. They’ve had it coming for a long time and more – I love it. Fitz is my kind of guy. Thanks for your article.
I can’t see Bush NOT pardoning Libby or anyone in his administration. He’s let’s the court play, but he won’t let justice prevail.. no way Jose…
He’ll do the pardon when it suits HIS agenda…
And all the good work at exposing and holding these thugs accountable is washed away with one Chimpy scrawl.
I still can’t get over how great Fitz has been for keeping my faith in government. Even if the pardons come down. Even if he doesn’t get a conviction. I feel that he’s making people answer the questions Bush/Cheney/Rove want swept under the rug…and that’s a huge role.
I really wish we had access to the questions he asked at the Bush/Cheney siamese twin deposition. Or do we?
Despite what Judge Reggie says, I view this case
as an indictment on the war and the fucking lies
and smearing of Joe Wilson…
I can’t wait for January 17, 2007…
My calendar is booked…
Jack
Dan Robinson @ 63
I think you are placing the blame on the wrong party.
Just based on one example from the newsreports – if a testifying expert does not realize that past writings are inconsistent with the positions being testified to in the instant case, that’s inexcusable.
Gracious she might have been, but a professional should be ready for well prepared and effective cross examination. Withdraw from the case if it requires that you testify to positions inconsistent with what you have written, or be ready to distinguish the writing from the instant case.
In the last analysis, she did it to herself.
You know, if you take your substantial credentials in a particular scientific field, and your integrity, and you take money for using that substantial amount of influence that you have built up by doing good work over time, and you sit on the witness stand to serve as a sort of human vouch for a theory that is as idiotic as “my hard job made me repeatedly lie” as a defensen tactic — you cannot expect people to just tiptoe around that fact just because you are a nice person. I’m sorry, but you earn your integrity in the courtroom business every single day. What you do when you cannot sit on the witness stand and honestly say “that is absolutely correct.” is that you say no when people offer you money — you don’t take their money and hope for an easy cross-examination. I think the bulk of the blame on this likely goes to Team Libby — because from what I know of Loftus, she is a decent person who has done some critical work in an area that needs a lot more sunshine…but that doesn’t excuse trying to rationalize Libby’s behavior via an unsound scientific tap dance, now does it?
So, the Allen folks are all atwitter about the fictional writings of Jim Webb.
Webb should hold a press conference and state that he wrote that novel back when he was a Republican.
-GSD
GSD at 71 — St. McCain said it was a fantastic book when it came out, as did Cap Weinberger. (And I think the bear at the top of the page is a reminder on just how sick GOP literature can be at times, eh? *G*)
rwcole @
44
I think the old addage: “You can only piss on my leg and tell me it is raining for so long” applies here.
The lower and middle class are being squeezed hard, yet the Bush folks and Larry Kudlow are doing endline dances about the economy. This is the greatest economy since the gilded age for those with money…for the rest it is the 1920’s again.
-GSD
CHS @ 70, you’re right on with this:
A true scientist with their integrity intact would choose not to participate; no-one required that she be there to testify, there were no subpeonas for her appearance. As an “expert” in a subset of my field, I’ve been asked to serve on government panels, and when the duties are beyond what I think I can reasonably represent, I decline the invitation.
I’m not saying that the financial incentive isn’t likely substantial, but if you take it, you also accept the risk. That risk also includes the potential damage of your reputation. If those who know her think that she indeed is beholden to those scientific ideals, then it suggests that the incentive was great indeed.
The reports are it is “kitchen sink” time for the Republicans and my feeling is that it is going to cement how morally bankrupt the party has become.
They have nothing to offer but smears and fears.
People are sick and tire and they have had enough.
In Massachusetts Kerry Muffy Healey has ruined her political career by becoming Karl Rovette.
-GSD
Read Richard Vigueries’ latest laments of the GOP. That says a lot that one of the fathers of modern day conservatism says that the GOP offers nothing and that screaming about Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid is pathetic.
N
Hmmm. All these polls showing everyone breaking for the democrats. Just makes it seem strange, doesn’t it, that a blue state like CT isn’t leading, or at least following the trend?
I wonder if that’s a reflection of the “secret polling” Karl’s been talking about?
LOL!
CHS @70
I don’t think anyone here disputes the fact that Ms. Loftus put herself in a bad place by getting between Fitz and Scooter. She was testifying in support of the person who was to be called in the actual trial. I doubt that she thought she was going to get filetted.
Fitz had cross examined her before.
And she said on the stand that they never met.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..01612.html
There were several moments when Loftus was completely caught off guard by Fitzgerald, creating some very awkward silences in the courtroom.
One of those moments came when Loftus insisted that she had never met Fitzgerald. He then reminded her that he had cross-examined her before, when she was an expert defense witness and he was a prosecutor in the U.S. attorney’s office in New York.
Ouch.
Dan at 79 — yep — that’s where the failure on witness prep and research comes in on Scooter’s side of things. Loftus should have been prepared for herself — but it is inexcusable for Team Libby not to make certain that she was before they ever subjected her to cross-exam by someone as notoriously over-prepared as Fitzgerald is.
My God, this woman needs a vacation. How can you forget that you were cross examined by Patrick Fitzgerald? Wouldn’t it have rung a tiny bell in your mind?
windje @ 56
I don’t KNOW, but believe, that he brought the obstruction and perjury case against Libby b/c it is so comepletley plain vanilla. The facts are strightforward and do not rely on one’s opinion about the war or the WH.
KISS= Keep It Simple Stupid
I thimk Fitz knows this rule
carolyn urban @ 81
I bet her testimony log is so long she truly didn’t remember.
So now I’m asking myself: who on Team Libby was assigned to read this particular expert witness’ information, do her hearing preparation, and thought, in their wildest dreams, that Patrick Fitzgerald seemed like the sort of fella that didn’t do all of his homework and then some?
Incompetence, what else is expected from these folks? They’re taking the arrogance page from BushII’s playbook, they think just because they say it, everyone will roll over and think it’s the truth.
Question for the lawyers: why do judges open a hearing by stating “I am inclined to rule against X”? Even if they are, wouldn’t it be more proper to just sit silently until both sides have completed their presentation? Stating before opening that X is disfavored seems to put the entire X team, its witnesses, etc under a dark cloud which can be self-fulfilling.
Cranky
Cranky at 85 — as an attorney, I’d rather know where the judge is leaning beforehand to tailor my Q&A. But that’s just me. You want all the information up front, rather than spending days on end with a hearing only to find out that all along the judge was really only interested in the segment you presented on Thursday. More information is always good when you are planning — but that’s just my style in court.
Ascender @ 62
If I read the press accounts correctly, she wasn’t being asked to testify about a witness’s perception, she was being asked to testify about the jury’s ability to understand that memory can be a tricky thing.
Short version= She wasn’t saying Irving is an idiot, she was saying juries are idiots (and in her book she says she can manipulate juries cause they are such idiots).
Kinda flies in th face of our whole criminal justice system. Pat Fitz really believes in that system. it’s no wonder he sliced and diced her, she was attacking his world view
Sparcatus @ 67
Not yet, but we might at trial
My bet is the pardon comes down December 29. Friday before the long holiday weekend.
rapier @ 89
Sadly, oh so sadly, I think you may be right. Sigh.
looseheadprop @ 88
I’m hoping that Fitz has a whole bagful of indictments he’ll produce after the election. But assuming that Dems take back one or both Houses, what power, if any, do they have should Bush start issuing pardons willy nilly?
Good Morning Firedogs and Christy,
happy to see a little red meat for the Plameologists
oh Irrrvvving . . .
something Mr. Wells’ office is well prepared for
something for Nate – in case he checks in
http://www.needlenose.com/node/view/3505
and I’m sorry, what year is it again ? live it loud Firedogs . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpsF_0-ta_A
I’ll be gone by the time this one gets out of Mod Jail
Have An FDL Day !
Go Dogs Go !!!
mad progressive love to y’all
looseheadprop @
88
That would be sweet. But I’m not so optimistic that it ever comes to trial. Bush/Cheney would pardon before their testimony was forced into the open. I still can’t believe that they were not interviewed separately and under oath.
mc @ 91
A PRIMER ON PRESIDENTIAL PARDONS
Christy,
I think you are expecting too much in the way of ethics from busnesspeople. They are doing what they do… and these authors for one thing in 99.9% of the cases… money and ego… and of course power.
These three are such strong aphrodisiacs that they have corrupted politics, government, and virtually all the professions including loft old acedemia and science.
We live in a corrupt world and it doesn’t look like it’s going to change. What we do get is the false xtians who are even worse because hide behind their relgious righteousness.
Selling out for a buck is as american as apple pie. Why can’t you see that?
mc @ 91
I don’t think they have any power other than impeachment. The pardon power rests in the executive. I’m relly not well readup on this though.
OT- Josh Marshall has a post up about calling Arlen Specter’s office demanding he denounce the attacks on Michael J. Fox. After all, MJF did a very similiar ad for Arlen in 2004 and there was no “controversy” then.
I think its a GREAT idea. Help if you can, firepups.
Justin Fallon
(Urban Pirate)
DefJef at 95 — because it is wrong.
also, OT –
I have decided to start putting my real name at the bottom of my posts – at least for a while. No specific reason, although David Crosby’s “almost cut my hair” has been playing in my head a lot today.
Anyway, feel free to call me Justin. :)
Don’t laugh at me but is the PJF blog really him? I mean its so snarky and anti-repug or actually anti-crime.
DefJef @
95
Selling out for a buck is professional prostitution.
That’s actually good for business if you are honest. Moreover, because we live in the age of rapid information exchange, the whores have increasingly limited professional lives.
mc @ 91
I’m no expert but it’s my understanding that once you’re pardoned you have no right to the fifth amendment. So if the House were to open investigations, you would HAVE to testify truthfully or be opening up yourself to further perjury charges.
GSD @ 71
LOL
Christy and the chorus of legal commentators – Been lurking. Thanks for your superb analysis and discussion of the Libby hearing.
I’ve been jonesing for a Plamegate fix, and this has been – to push the plunger on this metaphor – a shot in the arm.
Hi Justin! I hear you’ll be in Stamford with xyz working for Ned.
choochmac at 102 — yup, that would be correct — which is something we have discussed pretty frequently over the last year. If Libby were to be granted a pardon, and the Democrats were to take over the House (and Senate, for that matter), then he should expect a subpoena or two, I might imagine, to explain a lot more about the Vice President and his role in shaping CIA determinations in the run-up to the Iraq invasion. And that’s for starters.
For everyone who thinks there is a pardon in the offing for Scooter, take a moment and think about the sorts of questions you’d like to ask him and have him answer under oath. And then think about George Bush contemplating Democrats in the House of Representatives being able to do so publicly…and then contemplate the likelihood of a pardon any time soon.
So she’s testifying that memory can be fallible & she forgets she’d met Fitzgerald – Am I the only one who thinks that’s appropriate as well as silly?
I got my view of evidence turned upside down when I became an auditor. I naively figured, you keep everything, to show fairness & completeness. The ruling idea is that you get rid of all extraneous workpapers because if you’re ever called to testify, the lawyers will find something you overlooked if they can dig through the discard pile.
So its hard to imagine somebody with a lot of published work where they can’t, with sufficient effort, be found to contradict themselves. Even Kurt Godel would be found incomplete or contradictory with enough work.
Christy,
I am with you as far as ethics are concerned… but I also see that my view, and perhaps your view, is truly not the conventionial wisdom in this country.
Just look at how BOTH parties have embraced the money and politics meme…
We need a paradigm shift. And we need more people like you and Jane IN politics.
The rest of the trial should go this way. If pardons occur, man the pitchforks, torches and canes.
What comfort is it to know that when it comes to protecting their own hide in a court of law as opposed to protecting their hold on power, these people foul out? And they aren’t in any way handicapped by Bush’s Geneva inventions.
Things are looking up.
Christy,
Under oath? They hide behind the 5th… omerta all the way to the grave.
dab from CT @ 105
Hi Dab!
Yep sure will. Cleared my calendar from Fri-Wed. (i’ll need wed off to sleep off the celebration party)
I’ll be working in stamford, or elsewhere as needed. I will be in Meriden for tues eve.
Count me in for any FDL meet ups, and thanks again for your leadership and commitment. Your posts have encouraged me to make a few more phone banking calls several times. :) Go Ned!
OT — Hey FirePups, you need to check this out before the algorithms and new articles change the results:
http://news.google.com/news?hl…..mp;q=laura bush + bob woodward&ie=UTF-8&scoring=d
Looks like Pickles has been assigned to bash Woodie, and Moonie Times via UPI is the designated feed, distributing the same story w-i-d-e-l-y.
What the hell’s going on that they’ve got Pickles covering this RIGHT NOW???
Morning all! I got $20 to throw in the Blue America pot today, Ned gets 5, who should get the rest?
from the wapo article;
can you say “ouch” ?
I need to go back and read the comments, but Loftus is not just any researcher–she is HUGE in the field, the thus not without controversy. Her work in the ’80s and ‘90 was to very publicly “debunk” the idea of repressed memories in sexual abuse cases. While many therapist did go overboard with the repressed memory stuff, it does happen. I just know that there is no conclusion solid enough in experimental psychology to risk a child’s life, or to just possibly let a molester go free. But she always seems to overgeneralize her conclusions.
Almost studied with her at Univ. of Wash, but went elsewhere.
“Can a Presidential pardon be reversed?
No. Under Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution there are no grounds for reversal provided, and no authority identified that could accomplish a legal reversal (although Congress might theoretically pass a resolution condemning a Presidential clemency order, as was done for the first time in the wake of President Clinton’s 1999 commutation of the sentences of 16 FALN Puerto Rican nationalists). Early in the 2001 pardons controversy, certain lawyers in the Bush administration suggested that, under a line of 19th century cases, signed pardons, like warrants, might require delivery to be valid, but this argument was not officially pursued in the wake of President George W. Bush’s subsequent statement that he would allow President Clinton’s pardons to stand.”
Thanks to lhp, windje, choochmac, and CHS for the info.
The FAQ above is from http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/pardons.htm and confirms what I thought: that Congress has no legal recourse vis-a-vis the pardon itself.
Impeachment, as we know, is always an option (despite Nancy saying no).
Acquittal? Fugedaboudit!
More OT — cripes, I can’t keep up with the crap they are dishing out today.
TreasSec Paulson on CNBC yapping about revisions to Sarb-Ox.
That can’t be good. Not as long as Republicans are still holding the majority.
Rayne @ 112
Says pickles
“It’s a different war than our country has ever faced. The enemy can make a big show on television like they did for the bloody last month we had in Iraq by blowing themselves up a lot of times along with other people. But our success is not so easy to see. But the fact is that we are succeeding.”
Incredible line of thinking she has. So, they blow themselves up to influence our tv coverage and elections? Ay yi yi.
CNN – US navy warning of al qaeda terror threats against saudi oil assets and other key oil infrastructure facilities.
Downpuppy @ 107
If they’re extraneous, they are not necessary to demonstrate fairness and completeness.
And while you’re looking at the transcript, look up Elizabeth F. Loftus. She’s the “False Memory Syndrome” expert who discredits the memories of those claiming childhood sexual abuse. I expect she’s been right a lot, but she’s been way wrong lots of times too. If you read about her, her bias leaps from her words. She quit the American Psychological Association, claiming they’d gotten away from “science.” Fitz helped show that she’s taken a trip away herself. Long overdue for Dr. Loftus.
Long overdue…
Urban Pirate — yeah, I can see it now.
“Vote straight Dem! Kah-BLOOEY!!”
I’m surprised the Repugs haven’t actually aired that advertisement yet, given the hundreds of millions they’ve awarded in contracts to “information managers” like Rendon, Lincoln Group and SyColeman.
Twisted Martini @ 113
Jane was asking last night for donations to the BlueAmericaPAC to help extend some media buys for Trupiano.
Twisted Martini — I’ll match your $20 if you throw it to Trupiano.
His opponent McCotter is NASTY stuff.
Thanks Christy for a great post!
It seems the Irish fighter with the calm face is totally on top of this.
Current CNN.com headline:
“Bush uses ‘Internets’ to reach ‘The Google”
Feel the snark.
Rayne @ 123
To them everything is media/perception management. I guess it makes sense – its been remarkably successful. I really dont know why my tax dollars are going to support perpetual propagandizing and campaigning. Talk about the need for oversight! All they do is sell shit, using my money!
Via Atrios
Froomkin:
With the body counts soaring, the country descending deeper into civil war and the central government consistently unable to assert itself, how can he call this winning?
The answer: It’s becoming increasingly clear that Bush sees the war in Iraq in very simple terms. As he himself said, he believes that the only way to lose is to leave. Therefore anything else is winning — anything else at all.
Even if no progress is being made — even if things are getting worse, rather than better — simply staying is winning.
So we’re winning.
mc — Does CNN.com say whether Sen. Ted Stevens gave Dubya a demo on how to back up his brush-filled pickup truck next to the Toobz?
Which does make me wonder what kind of brush they have in Paraguay…?
OT– Noron about to cover the Macaca’s latest dumpster diving for ammo against Jim Webb, supposedly.
I wonder if any of these rethuglican desperado morons actually read books that are brave, well written reflections of a man who actually went to war.
Mary Cheney Matalin joining her.
Mickey @ 122
Tell me about it! I can’t tell you the joy it gives me that Fitz ripped her research. She also gets a lot of money testifying on the unreliability of eyewitness testimony. Her ego is has alwasy been larger than her effect sizes.
I Am Just Warming Up…
In the Libby Case, A Grilling to Remember
“With withering and methodical dispatch, White House nemesis and prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald yesterday sliced up the first person called to the stand on behalf of the vice president’s former chief of staff.
If I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby was not afraid of the special counsel before, the former Cheney aide, who will face Fitzgerald in a trial beginning Jan. 11, had ample reason to start quaking after yesterday’s Ginsu-like legal performance.” MORE http://patrickjfitzgerald.blogspot.com
Arghhhhh…my blood pressure is soaring, my jaw muscles are tight from gritting my teeth all morning. I’d better go do something else for a while besides fume about “Dying is Winning, Leaving is Losing” foreign policy, written on the backs of our troops.
And Missy Pickle’s Bushian apologetics tying a lovely pink bow on the top of it all, to sweep away the images of Mr. Pissy’s snotty Wednesday presser and Rummy’s snarling presser yesterday. I don’t know how Jon Stewart could cram it all in one TDS show, must have used an awfully big shoehorn.
Maybe I’ll go and get my laundry done so I don’t have to worry about it while I do door-to-door tomorrow and Sunday.
Thank goodness Fitz gives a glimmer of hope this morning.
James Wolcott needs to be a permanent commentator spot on radio or tv
http://www.vanityfair.com/poli…..all_a.html
This kind of thinking deserves a wider audience
Sorry for the blog pimp.
Rothenberg predicting a wave. Well, a heckuva wave.
As to Al Qaeda, apparently they waited for a Republican Congress and Republican President to attack on 9/11….They knew they could only plan an attack on Clinton’s watch, but they knew they could execute an attack on Chimpy’s.
-GSD
We know the Bush/Rove machine is in their desperate hours, they have resorted to trotting out the Mom Squad to save their asses. They use token minoriteis like Powell, Rice, Gonzales and Mehlman to sell their poison and they use the Mom Squad to give us the poison with spoonfulls of sugar.
Sick and desperate and in their last throes.
Rayne @ 123
But Rayne … that implies that Rendon et al. do some kind of work in exchange for those millions. ;)
Thanks for the Fitz fix, Christy.
OT – Lieberman refuses to participate in a fourth debate. New York Time reporter, Nicholas Confessore, (has Medina be assigned to another beat?) writes a fairly balanced article about Lamont/Lieberman/Schlesinger but obscures why Lieberman is not going to be in the debate: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10…..f=nyregion
And MediaMatters spanks NY Times, once again, for their inaccurate, or at a minimum, sloppy reporting:
http://mediamatters.org/items/…..ogspot.com
Is it February yet?
Thank you soooo much for this post and the links. You have made my day.
I can’t wait to hear your take on the whole thing. Count on your blog to experience a noticable uptick in hits as I keep checking back looking for it.
Have I told you how wonderful you are lately?
Kiss Float Opportunity
From a Friends of Lieberman Email:
Also, on Election Day, we will have volunteers adopt a poll site to help educate voters about Joe’s unique placement on the ballot. In preparation for Election Day poll watching we are offering several regional training meetings:
October 29
Town
Address
Time
Special Guest
Hamden Regional Office
1965 Dixwell Avenue
2:00 – 3:00 PM
Senator Joe Lieberman [will attend]
Too bad that Judge Walton didn’t wait until trial and let Fitz take the “expert” apart in front of the jury, leaving Libby and his team no time to regroup.
xyz – lol
Having been a poll watcher in August I can say that people don’t want to talk to you as they are walking into their voting place. We had a few people voluntarily walk over to us to ask us questions about Lamont vs Lieberman (we were able to make a few “lean Ned” definitely for Ned). However most people did not acknowledge us until after they voted and then left the building with a big smile at us, or a thumbs up.
People will take Joe’s literature and throw it away. And if they’re too aggressive – it will really turn people off.
OT – Breaking on MSNBC. The carrier groups off the coast of Iran, ie: The Navy, has been put on heightened alert in the Persian Gulf.
Here comes the surprise…
Be prepared for a false flag operation in the Persian gulf / Saudi Arabia…
The October surprise?
“It was a glorious Perry Mason moment…”
More like a glorious Grissom moment. LOL!
Sounds a lot like a fairly recent episode of CSI where a for-hire entymolygist was caught faking a larvae incubation period type analysis to provide an alibi for his guilty client.
OT — running errands, I heard Ron Suskind interviewed on Minn Public Radio about his book, The One Percent Doctrine.
He made these key points:
torture poisons the legal process
torture forfeits America’s moral authority in the world.
He noted that at his presser this week Bush played fast and loose with the facts, which those who don’t have access to classified materials AS HE DOES, would not know. Talking about the example of the Al Qaeda guy tortured: “We tortured an insane man and ran screaming at whatever he said.”
And Bush personally overruled the FBI’s efforts to do interrogations of the guy by different methods because they did not believe torture produced truth.
George W. Bush: torturer in chief.
Compartmentalize that, Laura!
My note to the NY Times:
In the article in the NY/Region section of the October 27th edition of the New York Times titled “Democratic Nominee Hopes GOP Rival Will Weaken Lieberman”, Nicholas Confessore indicates that Joe Lieberman will not participate in the fourth debate sponsored by a local Fox News affiliate.
It would be helpful if the article would indicate that Mr. Lieberman was invited to join the debate but declined. That has a different meaning than: “Next week, for instance, they will meet for a debate on a Fox-affiliated channel, without the senator.” MediaMatters has picked up on the information excluded from the article and has written a piece about it http://mediamatters.org/items/…..ogspot.com
If, indeed, Mr. Lieberman has declined the invitation, that would be something of interest to Connecticut readers. Having lost the Democratic primary in August, Mr. Lieberman has inserted himself into the campaign for Senator as the Connecticut for Lieberman candidate. In fact, the past five months is probably the most time Mr. Lieberman has spent in Connecticut in many years. He seems to prefer the company of the lobbyists and Bush administration officials in Washington to his constituents in Connecticut – and it shows.
So I think it is unfair to leave the impression that Lamont and Schlesinger have arranged for a debate – without – Lieberman. In fact, Mr. Lieberman has decided that it’s too much of an effort to allow the people of Connecticut to compare and contrast his views with Mr. Lamont and Mr. Schlesinger. That alone speaks volumes.
I hope the matter will be addressed and clarified.
DefJef at 110 — if Libby is pardoned, he is unable to hide behind the fifth amendment. He can answer the questions or be held in contempt of Congress and sent to prison. Period. There is no right to protection from self-incrimination once a question of prosecution is lifted via a pardon. So Bush is faced with a Prisoner’s dilemma — risk trial and the information being outed via public testimony OR pardon Libby and risk information being outed via public testimony. Either way, I’m keeping the popcorn handy.
Kentucky Woman @ 143
Talking point: are the Bush administration so desperate to keep their rubber stamp Congress that they would put the U.S. Navy in harm’s way for political gain? Since Karl Rove’s been making decisions about military actions already, why should we believe anything else of this corrupt administration.
Thanks CHS for the refreshing Fitzmas cheer.
No disrespect to the campaign efforts being promoted, but I’ve missed the Fitz focus.
Regarding your comments earlier, pardon me for being obtuse, I’m not sure what your suggesting. It seems to me that your suggesting a pardon wouldn’t immunize Libby from congression subpoena, but the legal case would. Are you saying that if he’s standing trial he will be less likely to see congressional examination ?
wrt pickles,
“What the hell’s going on that they’ve got Pickles covering this RIGHT NOW???”
Bush’s credibility is so strained, the optics of having the ‘faithful wife, standing up for her hard working misunderstood husband’ seems to be the ploy here.
Nefarious Leslie — oh, I’m absolutely certain that Rendon et al does work for the money.
It’s the quantity and type of work that’s in question.
I’m certain they have been paid to manipulate media, as contracted. But what else have they done under the guise of “managing information”?
They might even have written the Pickles’ rant that I mentioned upthread, having seen that the public’s response to Mr. Pissy’s and Rummy’s pressers were not positive. Ugh.
Actually, some of the originally listed EW’s are no longer scheduled to be called, IIRC. I wonder if the prospect of a grilling like this one, might just change the last few expert witness’ minds…
On the incorrect figure–every scientist I know, myself included, would be acutely, and painfully, aware of any incorrect figures in their work. It happens sometimes, but it’s really a downer. It’s a blow to your scientific vanity. If the transcript shows she immediately agreed and pointed out the error then (scientifically speaking) it’s probably just a minor embarrasment. If instead it show she really resisted admitting it, then my respect for her will really head towards zero.
Fitz’a victory here is truly Huge.
Loftus is the biggest name in memory research around. No doubt she thought her presence in support of Scooter was objective and impartial, but Fitz hoisting her by her own petard is sweet justice. No doubt Fitz clearly remembered cross examining her before, and that he saw through remembering that experience how to proceed with this cross examination.
This is an object lesson for “experts” everywhere.
Ah apologies Christy, the prisoners dilemma description is perfect.
Prairie Sunshine @ 149
Would it surprise me that they would consider something that morally contemptable? Unfortunately, not really. Where’s the downside for them? With the rare exception, their kids aren’t over there, and they’ve got everything to lose with Dems’ potential subpeona power. (Maybe they can get frequent-flier miles traveling to and from the Hague.) Basic point: never underestimate a cornered animal.
I know Elizabeth Loftus.
I am surprised that she is acting as an expert for Team Libby – wouldn’t have guessed that she has those leanings, in fact I think she is a liberal. Anyway, people do gigs for different rea$on$ perhaps. Elizabeth is a wonderful person and expert researcher. She has also done lot of pro bono work helping falsely accused parents during the “recovered memory” debacle that resulted in parents being fasely accused of incest by their adult kids who “recovered memories” through hypnosis, etc. She is really stand-up person. Sorry to see her on the stand for Libby.
Kentucky Woman @ 143
Damnit! I was *just* starting to get the panic attacks down to just one or two a day.
One can hope (vainly, I suspect) that the Iranians will publicly pull all their ships into dock. Perhaps even stating that they’re doing so, to avoid any ‘misunderstandings’.
Sophist at 150 — if Libby is facing criminal charges, he can claim 5th amendment protections and refuse to testify beyond “taking the 5th” under oath. If he is no longer facing criminal sanction, he loses that claim to 5th amendment protections and, thereby, can no longer refuse to testify under oath before Congress. So, the information can come out in a public trial or via public hearings. The Administration can choose it’s poison, so to speak, if the Democrats take either house of Congress. I can stock up on popcorn.
Which shows you why we’ve been pushing GOTV efforts and everything else — there is a whole lot of accountability at stake in this election. And we need every hand on deck to make sure we get it.
Yes, Christy, I hope you get your mitts on the transcript soon and can put up a link for all of us. It sounds like it will be much more fun reading what was said than going through the filter of reporters, even those with “ginsu” wit. Even if Bush quashes this thing by greymailing or pardons, I think it will still end up in the loss column for the administration. Conyers will out everthing with hearings.
Thanks Christy.. that is one dilemma whose horns Libby might look good on!
Considering how much Libby is paying his lawyers, their failure to properly prepare the witness is astronishing. How could they have not even elicited the fact that she had been cross-examined by Fitz before?
Prairie Sunshine @ 149
From the timeline in Wikipedia’s “War in Iraq”:
Two Americans disguised in Arab dress were caught as they tried to detonate a booby-trapped car in the al-Ghazaliyah residential neighborhood in western Baghdad. The men appeared suspicious and local residents apprehended the men as they left their Caprice car. The residents discovered that the two were Americans and called the police. Allied military authorities arrived at approximately the same time as the police and removed the two men before they could be questioned. (Free Market News, October 14, 2005 FreeMarketNew.com, http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=1326 last visited 10/22/06.)
So, I think the answer to your question would be yes.
by the way, new thread, everyone.
Christy,
Doh! Looks like I’m going to be EPU’ed, but I wanted to offer up a defense of the bug expert you mentioned. This person did exactly what they were supposed to do as an expert witness. I don’t think you tripped them up so much as you tripped up the defense lawyers.
As for Team Libby, I think his donors should start asking if they’re getting their money’s worth.
From msnbc:
This is about a Saudi offshore oil terminal (”Ras Tanura”). If there is to be a surprise, it will be a terrorist attack on that facility, not on Iran. But I think the kind of surprise that might have sounded good a month ago when the warships left port probably doesn’t look so good in today’s climate.
Although isn’t it funny how they conveniently forgot about that threat for a whole month before raising the alert level over it? Some enterprising young reporter should ask them about that.
Prairie Sunshine @ 149
One of the sites that I enjoy visiting, has it’s fair share of tin-foil hat wearers, so I have to pick and choose the information that I share with other sites.
Interestingly enough, this site (which has several investigators from inside the DOJ who post regularly), have been speaking of a false flag operation that includes sinking a CARRIER, for God’s sake, in the Persian Gulf.
I have never felt hate before, but I do believe the cabal in chiefs have finally stirred that emotion out of me. Telling people that they sicken me does not adequately describe what I’m feeling.
Son’s of bitches.
Sophist @ 150
Hah! BTW, if you didn’t read the Woolcott article klyde @ 139 linked to it why Republicans find that abstinence is an effective method of birth control.
Also, new thread.
I would love to know the name of the cognitive psychologist(s) Fitz employed to help prepare for this challenge. I’m surprised Team Libby went with her. Shows you how little they know about what they’re doing!
Frank at 163 — Yep, I know — and I thought I made that clear when I said that you have to hope the stars align and opposing counsel screws up. The expert was NOT pleased with defense counsel when we took a break, I can tell you that, but he was quite nice and gracious with me for walking him through the additional facts politely — I thought it was the least that I could do, under the circumstances, given that he’d been underinformed and all. And the jury loved it. *g*
Christy Hardin Smith @
168
I have co-workers who testify as expert witnesses, and I’ve always thought that you couldn’t pay me enough to do it. I watched part of the OJ trial where the prosecution’s genetics expert made a horrible blunder. I saw it right away, and it didn’t take long for the defense to jump all over the guy. He looked like a fool.
As mentioned in other comments, Loftus gained her reputation by trying to debunk testimony of victims in sexual abuse cases.
To me, she is an example of politicizing science. She aligned herself with people who claimed they were falsely accused of being sexual abusers of children, especially their own children. Those people in turn were aligned with conservatives, who while not facing accusations themselves, seemed to view the outing of the phenomenon of childhood sexual abuse as an attack on parenthood. They invented the “False Memory Syndrome”, a “syndrome” unknown to mental health professionals.
She over-generalizes from her lab experiments to real-life situations, motivated by ideology.
Thanks Fitz!
DeanOR in the United States of Amnesia
“One of those moments came when Loftus insisted that she had never met Fitzgerald. He then reminded her that he had cross-examined her before, when she was an expert defense witness and he was a prosecutor in the U.S. attorney’s office in New York. “
“My God, this woman needs a vacation. How can you forget that you were cross examined by Patrick Fitzgerald? Wouldn’t it have rung a tiny bell in your mind?”
She’ll probably remember NEXT time… it there is a next time.
everyone say it with me: conspiracy to obstruct justice.
If Libby’s counting on memory testimony to get him off, he can forget about it (sad pun intended).
dzman49 @ 171
bwa ha ha ha! The memory expert didn’t remember! *snerk* ha ha too rich.
Liar.
It’s been trippy lately that the names of former professors of mine or “colleagues” have been in the news. I almost went to U of W where Loftus teaches. I also was a classical studies minor at podunk CSU, Fresno, and one of my profs was Victor Davis Hanson. At least he shut up about his failing family farm in Selma, CA, but the neo-con bullshit he does now is ridiculous. Small world.
paperpusher @
35
Somehow I don’t think she’ll forget it again.
Some time back Fitzgerald was investigating Rove and then he didn’t prosecute. I wasn’t reading the blog for a while (computerS gone bad) and never learned why he didn’t prosecute. Would anybody care to enlighten me on that?
Is there any hope he will revisit Rove and the White House Iraq Group’s possible involvement with the outing?
MarkH @ 176
Some time back Fitzgerald was investigating Rove and then he didn’t prosecute. I wasn’t reading the blog for a while (computerS gone bad) and never learned why he didn’t prosecute. Would anybody care to enlighten me on that?
Is there any hope he will revisit Rove and the White House Iraq Group’s possible involvement with the outing?
Hi MarkH. Try googling “sealed vs sealed”
kristinejoy @
132
Thanks kristinejoy. I posted elsewhere and got slammed for not documenting her transgressions. Frankly, they’re hard to document, but they are there. Moreover, the grandiosity in her writing is a dead giveaway. She’s a smart lady, no question, but she is definite in an area where tentative is the most one can hope for. It takes a mind like Fitz to “prove” what a lot of have felt all along – her “expertise” has mainly been in selling her “expertness.”
Fitzgerald has garnered our respect for only moving when he “knows” he’s right. I wish he’d moved on less to get Rove in a courtroom, but I have to admit that, thus far, he’s got impecable judgement. I know my “bias” colors my wishes and so I defer to the master…
Christy Hardin Smith @ 39
Fitz being prepared doesn’t surprise me; Ted Wells and his team from Paul Weiss being unprepared DOES surprise me. How could they not have anticipated that Loftus would be questioned on her prior expert opinions and her writings? As a lawyer prepping a witness, especially an expert, you always want to have asked your witness HARDER questions in prep than the ones they get on the stand or in deposition. What are they thinking?
what are they thinking? they might be just trying to whistle past the graveyard ……..
For what it’s worth, I’ve been trying to pick out the few substantively revealing and interesting bits in the recent filings in the Libby case over at emptywheel’s threads. Far and away my favorite recent moment was Judge Walton’s explanation for why, though he was willing to move the deadlines for filing motions in limine back a little, he wasn’t willing to postpone them as much as the parties wanted. In footnote 1 to Walton’s October 19 order, he writes:
As the parties are aware, Judge Walton will be on vacation in Jamaica beginning November 18, 2006 and it is particularly important for the expeditious resolution of these motions that Judge Walton have something to work on while relaxing on the beach.
One other noteworthy thing is that there’s a very nice discussion of the CIPA process in Walton’s September 21 memorandum opinion and order.
Jeff at 181 — the vacation quote is a classic. *G*
I was going to leave a trackback but I couldn’t find the trackback address.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your prosecutor’s perspective on this. I was particularly interested in your careful description of what specifically was at stake in her testimony.
Because while I’m glad she wound up (apparently) hurting Libby’s case more than helping it, I’m also concerned that this experience of her cross-examination is likely to be misused by some of her critics. And some of her critics are not nice people.
In particular, Loftus played an important role in discrediting the notion of “recovered memories”, as they were applied by crackpot therapists in a number of cases in the late 1980s and early 1990s that became notorious. The worst abuse probably came from Christian-fundamentalist therapists who promoted the vague diagnosis of “multiple personality disorder”, using hypnotism to “recover” memories of childhood sexual abuse that the patients had supposedly forgotten completely.
The UFO abductions stories and a lot of the wild and unsubstantiated tales of massive Satanic sex-and-human-sacrifice cults were also based on such “recovered memories” produced under hypnotism.
Her work on human memory processes has not only been important in countering some of these crackpot claims. It also relates to questions about the role of repressed memories as conceived, for instance, in psychoanalytic psychology.
Bruce Miller @
184
While Loftus did, indeed, help a lot in dealing with the ‘crackpot’ therapists and the not so well-motivated patients who flocked to the sexual abuse diagnosis, the “false memory syndrome” had a potent downside – discrediting the momeries of the abused. It was a sad time, as the debate became polemic and the afflicted people got lost in the shuffle. The whole issue of “repressed memories” is a complex one, easily colored by personal bias, personal experience, or the theoretical orientation of the author. Loftus’ writings suggest such a bias and have been used to discredit “memory” altogether.
I agree that her work was an important counterpoint to the mass hysteria on the other side. But, it unfortunately generated some of its own, and Loftus participated in that by overstating her case.
Apparently, Fitzgerald picked up on that and took her apart on the stand.
You are so wrong! Loftus is no conservative; if anything she is a liberal. I know her. She was one of the sane voices debunking the false memories. Please, this is a very important issue; don’t treat it lightly. I am a long time FDLer. I also happen to have a step-daugter who has recanted her accusations of incest against my husband (his daughter). She also recanted her accusations against her mother (I’m the stepmom). These “memories” were wholey fabricated by “survivor groups” and other techniques. We are so glad to have our daughter back. Elizabeth Loftus has been a stallwart in the fight against the insidious crap that fed these false accusations throug the “recovered memory” crap.
DeanOR @ 171
Forgive me for not reading comments – at work, again – but had to say, Christy, this news and your wonderful commentary (and great war story about your entomologist cross) have given this recovering lawyer quite a lift. Can you say schadenfreude? Having been a legal services attorney, it’s good to be reminded that high-priced doesn’t always mean the best. And sometimes those high-priced guys make the mistake of underestimating the poor,underpaid non-profit or government lawyer. Thanks!
You don’t know jack-shit about this! Loftus is a good scientist. She is also a mensch. She has done research that shows memory is maleable and at times unreliable. In the controversy about “recovered memories” her work has supported that of others that shows that memory retrieval by hypnosis and dream work is pure fiction. She has been a friend to those who have been falsely accused by incest by ridiculous and ill-trained hypnotists, therapists and others.
kristinejoy @ 132
Urban Pirate @
119
She’s probably been promised another couple of million on her “severance pay”.
>.>
Okay, which one of you rabble-rousers is responsible for this sub-entry under Elizabeth Loftus at Wikipedia?
It is to snicker, guffaw, and make merry. ^.^
Mickey @ 185
Mickey, I don’t know all the details about how Loftus’ work on “false memories” may have been misused.
But my impression from the Post article is that what Fitzgerald nailed her on was overstating a very particular point in her testimony Thursday about jurors’ impressions of witnesses’ memories.
The article also mentioned that he cited what sounded like some contradictory points in some of her work. But I’m assuming it was in particular about her work on jurors, not about the issues of “recovered memory” produced under hynosis.
I read the WaPo account by Leonnig thanks to Froomkin’s link today. Classic!
Gotta love Fitz. I’m looking forward to the details of this one.
You didn’t ‘literally pick apart’ anyone. You figuratively did.
Pat @ 193
I love this. A friend of mine used to make fun of this habit of speech. He’d illustrate it with
I ate like a pig. Literally.
He was vegan too.
quote from WP article –
HAHaha…. Oh Dear…
MSNBC’s Joel Seidman needs a better editor. The penultimate line of his story:
“Today’s witness also admitted that there have been no studies conducted on how memory effects past conversations.”
It indeed would be interesting if memory could effect [sic] past conversations. I’m sure Karl Rove believes it can. He’s constantly trying to change history that way.