
Thomas Ricks writes in the Washington Post this morning:
The text of President Bush's news conference yesterday ran to nearly 10,000 words, but what may have been more significant were the things he did not say.
The president talked repeatedly about "benchmarks" for progress in Iraq, using that word 13 times. But he did not discuss the consequences of the Iraqi government missing those targets. Such a question, he said, was "hypothetical."
That response left unclear how the benchmarks would be different from previous times when the United States has set out intentions, only to back down. For example, the original war plan envisioned the U.S. troop presence in Iraq being cut to 30,000 by the fall of 2003. Last year, some top U.S. commanders thought they would be able to significantly cut the U.S. troop level in Iraq this year — a hope now officially abandoned. More recently, the U.S. military all but withdrew from Baghdad, only to have to have to reenter the capital as security evaporated from its streets and Iraqi forces proved unable to restore calm by themselves.
Over in my neck of the cyber-woods, I've repeatedly needled this cycle of futile optimism as the U.S. occupation performing an unintentional parody of "Waiting for Godot":
ESTRAGON: Let's go.
VLADIMIR: We can't.
ESTRAGON: Why not?
VLADIMIR: We're waiting for the political and security environment to stabilize.
ESTRAGON (despairingly): Ah!
The sad truth is, no matter what clumsy rhetorical footwork Dubya and his spin doctors offer in the hope of staving off a Nov. 7th disaster, there's not much we can do now to fix the situation in Iraq. Spencer Ackerman, recently exiled from the New Republic for describing the debacle there too accurately, noted this past week:
If U.S. officials in Iraq are urging Maliki "disband" the militias, they are issuing impotent, senseless pleas. Let's say Maliki did, at the stroke of a pen, "disband" them, and let's also say that the militias comply. What happens? Exactly what happened in 2003 when Jerry Bremer abolished the Iraqi Army: thousands — possibly tens of thousands — of ruthless men with guns are out on the streets. Think they'll act with malice toward none and charity toward all?
But, of course, Maliki doesn't have that power. At best, as with the late-period Soviet Union, Maliki will pretend to issue an order and the militiamen will pretend to comply. Some problems, when metastacized, are beyond remedy.
Or, as I said more generally here two months ago:
. . . it’s not so much that democratic ideas haven’t had a chance to blossom naturally over there, it’s that they never stood a chance in the crossfire. Saddam Hussein turned the entire countryside into an arms depot in large part to fuel an insurgent war if he was ever deposed, and in the anarchy that followed the U.S. invasion, all of the groups that he had oppressed (especially the majority Shiites) quickly organized themselves into vigilante militias as their way of saying "Never again."
Once the American military proved itself incapable of enforcing order during the post-invasion frenzy of looting, the eventual outcome was clear to all sides — Iraq would continue to be a country ruled by guns and the police who come in the middle of the night. The only question left to be resolved is. whose guns and whose police? Because there’s no way to compromise on that issue, especially after three years of spiraling bloodshed, there isn’t much realistic hope of a political solution emerging no matter what policy the U.S. adopts at this point.
But to realize this just makes it harder for anyone to stage an intervention with the president who's run the invasion of Iraq into the ground just like every minor-league business venture he failed in before entering politics. As Josh Marshall wrote perceptively on Monday:
President Bush's interests are not the same as the country's. . . . If Iraq is a failure, a mistake, then the same words will be written right after his name in the history books. A country, though, can take missteps and mistakes, course corrections and dead ends, and move on. We've done it before and we'll do it again.
But President Bush can't and won't withdraw from Iraq because when he does, under the current conditions, he'll sign the epitaph, the historical death warrant for his presidency. Unlike in the past there are no family friends to pawn the failure off on and let them take the loss. It's all his. So he'll keep kicking the can down the road forever.
So, let's say that in two weeks, the Democrats win back at least one house of Congress. There are no good solutions to "fix" Iraq — the situation has deteriorated so badly that success will be defined as a human catastrophe that scars our memories for years or decades, rather than generations or even centuries. The Iraqi army is utterly unable to defend themselves without U.S. help, much less defend their country. And yet our own military is on the verge of collapse from the strain of the occupation.
But the president is in complete denial and refuses to do anything to face reality. (As Atrios wrote earlier today, "The conversation we're having about Iraq right now is just about the same one we're going to be having two years from now on the eve of the presidential election.") Winning the elections will feel great… but what do we do to force a change in course in Iraq after we win?
Related posts:
- The End of the Delusion in Iraq
- In Iraq, As in So Many Contexts, Withdrawal is Victory
- Remember Iraq or Ray Odierno is Still Wrong
- Torture: Obama Heeded Maliki on Abuse Photos, Says McClatchy; What That Says for Our Occupation
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Dahr Jamail, The Will to Resist: Soldiers Who Refuse to Fight in Iraq and Afghanistan





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Swopa, Rumsfeld said “Back off”.
-GSD
George W. Bush-winning the war one new slogan at a time.
-GSD
To alleviate any concerns about the fact that various blogs are unavailable now, I am reposting my comments from the prior thread:
Stephen Parrish, CPA @
64
Stephen Parrish, CPA @ 6
They are back up.
GSD @ 4
Rummy: Make me. :-P
(Or maybe I should ask, “Him and what army?”)
There will be a 4th CT Senate debate, Lamont and Schlesinger are in for sure. Lieberman is invited too, but not confirmed.
Here’s a link to the debate announcement. This is great news.
http://nedlamont.com/blog/1980…..in#comment
And here is the word from Tim Tagaris:
Today, the campaign accepted an invitation from Fox 61 to participate in a fourth debate between Ned Lamont, Alan Schlesinger and the Connecticut for Lieberman Party candidate.
Let me be clear, this debate will proceed whether or not Joe Lieberman accepts the invitation. We do, however, expect Joe to attend since he gave every indication he was willing to continue debating when Alan Schlesinger raised the question infront of a live television audience at the third debate last week.
I mean, Joe wouldn’t lie to the citizens of Connecticut, and America, watching the debate, would he? So, expect all three candidates for one more ride.
Game on.
Like Don Rumsfeld said, all you Iraq War critics need to just back off!
George Bush, Commander in Chief in the War on English.
but what do we do to force a change in course in Iraq after we win?
Winning the House, or even winning the House and Senate, won’t turn the Dems into Commanders in Chief. They could try cutting off funds for the occupation, but doing that would be political suicide.
Thus the U.S. is locked into Iraq till Bush leaves office. He deserves to be impeached, and may well be if Dems take the House, but he won’t be convicted absent some pretty unlikely circumstances. So troops are stuck there till 2009 unless they get pushed out in some sort of Dunkirk-style catastrophe.
I think a better strategy would be to assume the occupation will continue and that the general Iraq situation will get still worse, and the war itself, more unpopular. Say loudly that the war was a mistake and its execution was criminally incompetent and corrupt. Conduct hearings into the details of how and why this is so. Destroy the credibility of the GOP in security matters. Then when the Dems get the presidency in 2009, use the memory of this horrific war to prevent Republicans from gaining power again for a long, long time.
Brilliant post, as per usual Swopa, thanks.
After mid terms, we have to get this story out in the TM. It paves the way for the Articles of Impeachment and a retelling of this horrible story so that the majority of Americans get it. Making the story “accessible” is the key.
YEAH!!! Chris Bowers on NPR’s All Things Considered!
Hooray!
You could show that parody to Bush but he’s never heard of “Waiting for Godot”.
TRex @ 16
Do tell!
And TRex – do you know how much money you raised last night?
Blogger is still screwed up- although it is possible to get the pages, when I try to post a comment I get an error. Hope this gets fixed.
Joyce @ 17
If it was about Bush it would be “Waiting for Dildo”.
-GSD
Hey TRex- what are you doing for Late Nite? Maybe not the best topic to pursue right now, but Howie had an interesting post earlier today:
http://www.blogger.com/comment…..1960311026
Complicated. But food for thought-
~~IF YOU LIVED IN TENNESSEE, WOULD YOU VOTE FOR HAROLD FORD? THANK GOD I DON’T HAVE TO MAKE THAT DECISION!~~~
fwiw, this was something I was thinking about last eve when I couldn’t sleep.
Boston Globe story on Obama’s email/endorsement includes this at the end:
http://www.boston.com/news/loc….._landrieu/
Did the lady from LA forget Joe’s confirmation hearing on Brown? Or, how connecting Joe to the ‘months’ following Katrina just reinforces the whole fiasco with Jozo holding the bag?
PS –> Notice menu selections…someone can’t ’stomach’ Cajun food, even for a photo/op?
In essence the malitias are doing the job that the US could not, battling the insurgents. Maliki would not possbily tell then to stop (even if he could or they would listen) because he wants and needs them to succeed. I my eyes, the US mission there is complete and let the Sunnis and Shites fight it out. If the war lasts two more years, you can predict a dem in the WH.
The Iraquis are in the middle of sorting out just who will form a government. Al Queda, “terrorists”, “dead enders”, insurgents, and all the other boogie men are just distractions, as are the US troops. Neither Bush, with all the power that is his to direct, nor Maliki, his proxy, have enough of that power to do more than slow the march to the end game.
At best the Shia take the capitol and enough of the oil lands in the south to govern a large swath of the country. They will hope to contain the Sunni minority, or reach a grudging stalemate while holding the upper hand militarily and economically. The Kurds will exercise de facto independence in the North.
The Iranians, the Saudis, and the Turks will have much to say about how things will work in the years ahead. The US, not so much.
I am profiling the Roth (CA-45) campaign tonight. I haven’t heard what our take was last night on the trip fund. It’s all going into the big FDL paypal account, so the email updates are going to Jane. She said she’d keep me posted but right now she’s gone out to Berkeley to kiss Kos’s ring. I asked her how it tastes.
She said, “Mmmmmmm, minty.”
TRex @ 25
LOL
Swopa, thanks for the post. We lost the war. That’s the problem and the truth; we also lost Afghanistan.
We just have to acknowledge it.
OT–Some Wingnut Radio talking as*hat on Tucker says he’s against creating “itty, bitty people” and later “itty bitty petrie dish people”.
I think my head just exploded; will be in touch.
ABC World News deconstructing the dissonance and chaos of statements by Bush, Rumsfeld and Malaki…who blames the troubles on the coalition.
Mr. Sunshine suggests that somebody should take the Limpballs twitching mockery video and mute the sound and super the words: how Republicans govern.
Hadley on NewsHour telling Margaret Warner that the Prez omission of ‘democratic gov’t” in Iraq is now off the list. Hadley: ‘Absolutely not.’
Harhar. Now talking about the definition of ‘benchmark’.
——
Just begone.
Back to IraQ-
Inevitably the end game will be similar to the Vietnam exit (well, more roofs in the Green Zone) unless we gain control of both houses and the power of oversight and appropriations.
We need to keep up pressure from the opposition bench. We will never have a supermajority for impeachment, but we can turn off the spigot.
VG@21 I read Howie this AM and understand his concern; however, this election is a pure R or D. If we don’t take the Senate, an Alito or worse is in our future.
TRex- I thought that your “Hit the Road, Joe” lyrics last nite were great. Oddly enough, after I listened to/ watched the original SNZ song on YouTube that was the basis for had enough, another song started going through my mind- which I finally identified as “Hit the Road, Jack.” So, I think you are on to something!
Just FYI -
Chris Shays on NYC radio with an ad that pushes his ‘independent’ cred.
Not once is Iraq, Bush or Republican mentioned.
‘Bipartisan’ is mentioned, more than once.
Ringing a few bells
Does the word “quagmire” ring a bell?
OT….
Exxon for a 90 day period (July-Sept ‘06)
rang up a $10.B profit. How much a day?
The Shell CEO said oil price increases and decreases were the result of the weather… perhaps Weather Manipulation?
Meterology is a damn good major…
Jack
angie @ 27
Of course, even “ittier-bittier” blastocysts are to be defended at all costs.
By this logic the four-celled stage should be defended by hydrogen bombs.
And the pre-cell stage – the gamete?
The average Limbaugh fan devotes his life to liberating these tender pre-beings
And all this time we just thought they were compulsive masturbators.
tfitznc @ 30
Completely agree.
Steve @ 31
I don’t disagree with your sentiments. It was just so odd to me that in my sleepless night, and later in the day, before I saw Howie’s post, I was mulling the same question.
jeffreyw @ 24
The Turks are pretty nervous about an independent Kurdish state. They’ve already had problems with Kurdish separatists based in Iraq attacking targets in Turkey.
Wrt Vietnam parallels, one difference. Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney will probably try to leave significant forces with the Kurds who now control the oil rich northern fields.
Swopa said:
What the Cheney Administration simply doesn’t get, is the fact that while you can fund the training of folks to be soldiers, you can not buy the “loyalty” necessary for them to “be” soldiers.
And after thousands of years of accumulation of military knowledge, who’da thought?
Junya, Darth and Dummy, you broke it, you own it!
On CNN, Michael Ware defines “who is the enemy” in Iraq. It’s more complicated than usually described by the Administration:
Ware: Who is the enemy in Iraq?
I love Conyers
Now Is the Time to Dig Deeper
by Congressman John Conyers
Thu Oct 26, 2006 at 01:25:06 PM PDT
I want to applaud Mydd.com and Moveon.org for the Use It or Lose it campaign. We are on the brink of a historic election. We can’t take anything for granted. We all need to do everything we can to maximize the chance of victory.
By last August, I had fulfilled my required obligation (of $200,000 in dues) to the DCCC and then some. But I agree with Chris Bowers and others that, if ever there was an election that obligates every one of us to do more than what is routine, it is this one. Therefore, this week, I have donated an additional $100,000 directly to the DCCC and have given more than $14,000 to individual candidates.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…../16256/354
Iraq’s a House of Cards
OT Your daily gas and oil prices
Average price for regular gasoline 10/26/06 in 50 states and DC
$2.90 plus 1 state : Hawaii
$2.80 plus 0 states
$2.70 plus 0 states
$2.60 plus 1 state : Alaska
$2.50 plus 1 states
$2.40 plus 6 states
$2.30 plus 3 states
$2.20 plus 13 states
$2.10 plus 16 states
$2.00 plus 10 states : Arkansas, Georgia, Missouri, Mississippi, New Jersey, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia
Average national price: $2.202, up $.003 from yesterday
Down 39.1 cents from same time last year.
Highest recorded national average price: $3.057 9/5/2005
Highest average price: Hawaii $2.938
Lowest average price: New Jersey $2.039
http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/sbsavg.asp
Nymex Crude Future $60.36, down $1.29 from yesterday
Dated Brent Spot $58.33, down $1.28
WTI Cushing Spot $60.36, up $1.26
The decline in gasoline prices has flattened out. They even rose slightly today. In oil, the American market harmonized between its spot and futures positions. The more volatile world benchmark fell back. This is a picture consistent with adequate oil supplies, but it is only a one day snapshot.
Hey Dab, did you get my second note?
Michael J. Fox was just on the CBS Evening News. He discussed the political issues, including the recent Rush Limbaugh dust-up. He came across very well, very sympathetic and reasonable.
If Iraq not meeting ‘targets’ is hypothetical then the ‘benchmarks’ are also. Rumsfeld saying ‘it’s complicated’ and ‘backoff’ means to me they have NO F**KIN’ plan. The military are trying to herd chickens in Baghdad and Fallujia and Mosul. The Iraqi government(?) is dealing with Sadr who one or two years ago had a bounty on his asshole head. Now he is an illeterate negotiating terms. A cluster FUBAR. Get our men and women out of this godamn quagmire!! There is no more they can do! How many more have to DIE!! Let Allah sort it out.
OT: A poll has put Angie Paccione in a dead heat with her opponent Rep. Marilyn Musgrave in CO-04. The split is 45 – 42 for Paccione, with a MOE of 4 percent.
http://www.coloradoan.com/apps…..1/61025032
Even better, here’s a quote from that article:
By way of disclaimer, this poll was commissioned by the Paccione campaign. Most polls have shown Musgrave with a slight lead or a statistical dead heat for the last three months.
Um… wasn’t this entire war based on a hypothetical?
teak111 @ 23
This is essentially correct (and is something I implicitly predicted two years ago).
The reason the Bushites/neocons can’t agree to this is that the Shiites might win (and by extension, Iran would as well).
The reason that other people worry about this option is that Iraq has Sunni-dominated neighbors (e.g., Jordan, Saudi Arabia) who don’t want the Shiites/Iran to win. If the U.S. pulls out to “the Sunnis and Shiites fight it out,” you could have a regional war pretty quickly as all those neighbors start joining in to make sure their side doesn’t lose.
Swopa at 8 — hehehehe That’s cruel. You know he barely has two spare batallions to send after you at the moment…what do you want to do, point up his inadequacies and failures of planning and piss poor decision-making capabilities and…
Oh forget it. It’s just too damned easy. Too bad it is our troops on the ground, the Iraqis, the Afghans, and the rest of us that have to live with the results. Because lord knows, neither Rummy nor Bushie will ever own up to any failures or responsibilities. Ever.
“defend the country”
I’m not sure that the Iraqi army is tryin to “defend the country” or that the US is either.
Both are tryin to kill some of the people in the country- but not necessarily the same people.
Those that worry about the Iraqi army’s “willingness to fight” can sleep better at night knowing that they are ready willing and able to kill Iraqis and that they do it daily- not always the same flavor of Iraqis.
To say that this is about “defending the country” is to buy into the insanity of the Clusterfuck position. The country is eating itself- how do you defend the country against THAT? You don’t!
Rummy: Make me. :-P
(Or maybe I should ask, “Him and what army?”)
Clearly it’s not going to be the army he wants.
TRex
You’ve got mail.
“They died in vain.” Four words that are unbearable for the mother of a dead soldier and shaming for the politicians who sent them to their deaths. So our leaders say “they did not die in vain”. But who now believes them?
“To exchange tyranny for anarchy is merely to move from one circle of hell to another. As one Iraqi recently commented: under Saddam we had a state, a bad state, but to have no state is even worse.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comm…..16,00.html
Roddy McCorley @ 49
Great comeback!
Now’s the time to let america know just what GW Clusterfuck did to create the man eating state in Iraq.
Glenn Greenwald points to rightwing supporters urging Bush to escalate the war immediately after the elections, send in more troops, and use them more forcefully — they think this is the way to win, and Bush seems to be sympathetic to their views, as he has been from the beginning.
Greeenwald: Bush followers demand escalation in Iraq
Hadley tonight responded to Brezinski appearance last night on whether Bush is talking to enough outside people. Brezinski had implied “no” and that listening to Kissinger and the Iraq Study Group was not broad enough. I suspect Bush has spent more time with rightwing talk show hosts/bloggers/pundnits than he’s spent with former Secretaries of State, except for Kissinger, who knows how to lose a war in some one else’s administration, and Baker, who knows how to deflect political responsibility.
Two more years of this charade, folks.
Mad Dogs @ 39
As of our invasion and dismantling of Sadam’s power structure, “Iraq” is no longer a country. It is just a fiction of lines on a map. The ongoing civil war will, eventually, sort out whether those lines will remain, and who will be the governing majority. Until there is, again, an Iraq in reality there is not a country for any one to fight for. Today the only loyalties are to tribe, kin, and religion.
More Lamont-Schlesinger debate information courtesy of CT Bob:
http://ctbob.blogspot.com/
This just in from the Lamont campaign:
(STATEWIDE) – Today, Democratic Nominee for US Senate Ned Lamont accepted an invitation to attend another US Senate debate. It will be held next Thursday evening, November 2nd, and will be sponsored by Fox 61 WTIC-TV and the Hartford Courant. The debate will be broadcast live from Quinnipiac College in Hamden, and again several times before the election on November 7th.
“We are looking forward to another opportunity to debate the issues openly so the voters of Connecticut can make an informed decision on who they want to represent them in the US Senate,” said Liz Dupont-Diehl, Communications Director for the Lamont Campaign. “We hope that both of Ned’s opponents will join him.”
Republican Nominee Alan Schlesinger has also accepted the invitation. The sponsors will allow the debate to proceed whether or not Senator Lieberman accepts.
After reading Glen Greenwald this morning, I have to think that we need to consider the possibility that, after 8 November, we’ll see them ratchet the war up, not down, putting more of our troops at serious risk.
And what about those naval battle groups in the Tonkin, sorry, Persian Gulf?
They may want to ratchet up the war but if they are solidly defeated as the new polls indicate it will be everyman for himself and such chaos within their ranks I seriously doubt they would dare try.
dab from CT @ 18
I heard it. They were talking about the “Use it or Lose it” program. Chris was matter-of-fact, “We aren’t asking them to donate all their money, or even half of it. Asking for 30%…”
The host then added that the unchallenged-Goopers (an oxymoron, I know) are giving even less then the Dems and they weren’t aware of any internet groups asking them to do so.
I tend to harp on this but the militias are extensions of the parties who form the government. They also have a significant presence in the army and security forces. In demanding their abolition, we are essentially asking the left hand to cut the right hand off. It’s not going to happen.
My other point is this. Maliki complained today that Iraqi security forces did not have sufficient arms to defend themselves. He talked about men having to share assault rifles. More than this, the Iraqi army even as it is presently constituted lacks any heavy weapons (artillery, tanks) or helicopters. These were the main stays of Saddam’s military power. So in addition to divided loyalties, the army, and the government it is supposed to defend, inherently can’t establish its power or security in the country. OTOH we demand the Iraqi military be more effective and on the other we deny them the tools to accomplish this. If I were cynical, I would say that someone doesn’t trust someone else.
Tom Kean Jr. is running away from the Italian bashing ad equating Italians with mobsters.
-GSD
Hugh’s daily gas price update shows states with the lowest prices include: MO, VA, TN, NJ.
Esso donating red?
dab from CT @
42
This is exactly right. See link for Barrons article on how money and winning go together.
Barrons Online Link
Rove is going to turn the skies brown splattering mud over the airwaves.
The race ain’t over till the finish line is crossed.
Karl Rove has secret polls by the way…secret polls that only secret government operatives can see….
What a sweaty weasel.
-GSD
By the way- the election’s coming up:
Here’s the latest:
In the senate- the big three remain virtually unchanged- all within the margin of error and dems needing three of four.
New Jersey seems to be back in play.
In the house- democracy corp says that the tier one and tier two races have stabilized- but the tier three races are goin gooper.
Looks more and more like a fairly narrow win in the house with the senate stayin gooper.
That would be a hell of a lot better than nothing- but still disappointing.
Blank Kludge @ 64
Oh, surely it’s coincidence.
-GSD
Blank Kludge @ 64
NJ is not red, although those two ‘Democrats’ we have elected to the Senate BOTH voted with the Shrub on Military Commissions.
Sorry about that messed up post. Ignore the first two paragraphs.
The plan has NEVER been to give the Iraqis an airforce- armour- artillery- or a total airsupply capability.
Clusterfuck totally destroyed what was there and refuses to replace it.
The plan has ALWAYS been for the US to provide those services- that’s how we make sure that we can use Iraq as an armed fortress in our fledgling colonies in the middle east.
windje @
69
OK — but Senate seats at risk have low oil prices…might make a voter a touch less angry at the whole Godot Gang.
Sidney Blumenthal, writing in Salon, has a theory about why Bush keeps going public and yakking just when the Republicans need him to STFU about Iraq.
After an analysis of the Bush vs. Baker strategies, he notes:
Blumenthal concludes: “Now it’s Baker’s move.”
Interesting theory. But if true, surely Cheney is calling the shots. Bush isn’t that strategeric.
TRex @
13
Laura bought Dubyah a parrot for his birthday. She told Dick Cheney, “The bird is so smart! George has already taught him to mispronounce over 200 words!”
“Wow, that’s pretty impressive,” Cheney said. “But you realize that he just ’says’ the words. He doesn’t understand what they mean.”
“That’s okay,” Laura replied. “Neither does the parrot.”
Christy and Jane,
I just sent more info on Petty Cash to your emails.
In a nutshell, I’ve looked at a couple more 2006 October Quarterly filings.
Chafee….$ 650
Akaka…..$1054
Stevens…$8351
Kyl…….$1385
Stabenow..$ 138
Biden…..$ 84
Joe’s $387k is still way, way out there.
Well, conventional wisdom is just that and anecdotes are just that.
In Mass. the anecdotal evidence shows that the very negative campaign run against Deval Patrick has soured the electorate against the mud slinger in chief, (R) Kerry Murphy Healey.
We’ll see what happens in the next week and half.
-GSD
Cheney calling the shots? After reading the last Woodward book- I’m not so sure that Cheney is running anything beyond his own active imagination. Rove is running the country. It’s all politics 24 hours per day 365 days per year.
TRex @
13
The only war he’ll ever win; a Pyrrhic Victory at best.
Back to IraQ:
Yes, there are many differences between Iraq and Vietnam. For one, this is more obviously about oil. LBJ may have been guilty of hubris and arrogance, but he did not wage war as a bizarre personal vendetta.
Any idiot (other than GWB) could have observed that Saddam was the ONLY unifying force that kept these factions under one confederation. Really more like Yugoslavia isn’t it?
I can’t help but think that a careful analysis of what went wrong in Vietnam can reveal some lessons as to (at least) how not to proceed in Iraq. The success of Bosnia and Croatia may offer better clues as to how to use the international community to help dig us all out from this morass.
Let’s start the dialogue here.
Twisted Martini @ 45
No – very strange
Poor parrot!
Matthews says the Dixie Chicks are coming up on Hardball. How odd that three musicians are so far ahead of the curve on Iraq than the presumed front runner for the Democratic nomination for president in 2008. Perhaps not so odd though. During the Vietnam war, songsters were way out in front of Johnson and Nixon on that, another illegal (Gulf of Tonkin) and immoral war.
CatelynK #73,
Bush said yesterday in his press conference that he would consider seriously the Iraq Study Group recommendations that were consistent with his goal of victory. Since Baker-Hamilton have already signaled that they think victory in Iraq is impossible, it is difficult to see what Bush would take from them except for some atmospherics. So I agree with what you are saying.
windje @
78
I could kiss you for spelling Pyrrhic correctly, windje.
GSD @ 76
I’ve seen the ads and they are “Willie Horton” redux. Absolutely disgusting
A parrot caged by a dodo bird. Heckle meet Jeckle.
dab from CT @ 80
three’s a charm, go check!
What I accidently left in my comment above is something I highlighted from an earlier post today…
“After reading Glen Greenwald this morning, I have to think that we need to consider the possibility that, after 8 November, we’ll see them ratchet the war up, not down, putting more of our troops at serious risk.
And what about those naval battle groups in the Tonkin, sorry, Persian Gulf?
They may want to ratchet up the war but if they are solidly defeated as the new polls indicate it will be everyman for himself and such chaos within their ranks I seriously doubt they would dare try.”
Losing an election is not going to end their brazen dictatorial warmongering. The Neocons don’t give a damn about the troops. A ratcheting UP of the war seems more likely then a ratcheting DOWN. They will use any votes against this by the Congress for their next mud-slinging effort in 2008. As someone else said, even if the Dems take over both houses, Dumbf*%k is still the CIC. The only real leverage the D’s will have is to axe the war-funding, and personally, I don’t think they have the stones to do that.
Spartacus –
Thanks for ’slaving’ over those numbers.
Hope this ‘petty’ topic comes up in CT media and upcoming debate.
——-
Quote you’ll never hear:
“We could buy votes – but it would be wrong.”
J. Lieberman, former Sen/CT
dab from CT @ 85
The ads helped her negatives rise above 50%. Now she’s trying to go positive. Too Late.
If the Herald calls her Dead in the Water, then you know it’s over.
CatelynK @ 73
If you combine this view [Bush trying to discredit Baker] with the Greenwald view [Bush listens to rightwing neocons who believe major escalation can still win], then it seems we have at least one plausible explanation for what is happening. The debate is between the neocons, who want to escalate and Baker (representing Bush I) who are desperately searching for a graceful and politically non-disasterous way for Bush II to get out of this mess. And Brezinski watches this and says, “we need a new set of advisors across the board.”
The American and Iraqi people are being held hostage to one of the most mindless and amoral debates ever, in which the public interest is the only option not on the table.
Margot @ 73
Parrot Jokes!
My fave:
A parrot had such a salty vocabulary that the owner had nearly given up on it ever cleaning up its act. Tried every thing, no luck. One day, after an outburst punctuated with several “fuck you you can’t make me” retorts, the man threw the bird into the freezer and slammed the door. Shamed by his own cruelty, he relented after an hour and let the rascal out. To his amazement the parrot was most conciliatory, asking, contritely, “What did that turkey do?”
Karl Rove has secret polls. I wonder if they are the same polls that Republican Senator Larry Craig had called “devastating”?
Also, the RNC is pulling the plug on DeWine.
So long shitheel.
According to KOS.
“The Republican National Committee confirms it will not be on the air in the final week of Mike DeWine’s campaign, canceling its ad reservations throughout Ohio.”
-GSD
Spill DeWine……take that girl.
“Winning the elections will feel great… but what do we do to force a change in course in Iraq after we win?”
My hope is that with a chamber the first order of business for managing our future in Iraq will be giving our military leaders on the ground in Iraq a voice apart from Rumsfeld. With that voice, I hope military leaders would to express what they think is doable or not and what they would need to accomplish it, especially if it differs from what Rumsfeld and his neocon operatives dictate.
Democrats don’t need to be militarily bold and brilliant, just be willing to listen to the expert advice of the people laying it on the line every day in Iraq. If asked and supported by Congress, I’m sure they would expound on the truth. That is an essential beginning.
.
Blank Kludge @ 89
Joe4Joe just charges ‘em to his Visa card.
Funny thing, Visa never seems to send him a bill.
Heckle and Jeckle would not have gotten us into the Iraq war.
OT, but imprtant:
Diane Benson’s campaign is announcing at this hour the results of a poll taken October 24-25 by Hays Research Group which shows the following results in the Don Young-Diane Benson Congressional race for Alask’s sole seat. A poll on October 15 by Cracium and Associates, using the same methodology as HRG, showed Benson 16 points behind Young.
HRG results:
Don Young 43%
Diane Benson 34%
OPther candidates 7%
Undecided 15%
Refused to answer 2%
Benson has gone from 30 points behind in mid-September to 16 points in mid-October to less than ten points behind with 12 days left in the race.
In yesterday’s sole debate, the Green Party candidate publicly threw his support to Benson. The Green Party usually polls between 4 and 8% in the Alaska House race. The poll was aken before the debate.
Additionally, the Alaska press is finally asking Young’s campaign serious questions about his ties to Jack Abramoff, Bob Ney, Duke Cunningham and Tom DeLay that the media should have been asking months ago.
The Benson campaign is hoping this momentum to within ten points of Young will finally bring in Democratic Party funds for the charismatic candidate. So far, she has received no Democratic Party money and has relied on places like firedoglake, ActBlue and other internet donations for virtually all her out-of-state campaign funds.
Kris Pierce, Benson’s campaign manager asked me to especially thank fdl readers and egregious for their help in keeping the campaign bouyed and advancing!
GSD -
Yepper and YIPPEE! …’take that girl’ indeed.
Fascist-in-training now draining.
Democrats don’t need to be militarily bold and brilliant, just be willing to listen to the expert advice of the people laying it on the line every day in Iraq. If asked and supported by Congress, I’m sure they would expound on the truth. That is an essential beginning.
tfitznc @ 79
Nixon declared his intention to leave but then took years to do so, greatly expanding the conflict in the meantime. I would say one lesson to learn from Vietnam is not to stay once you decide you’re going to leave. We can deploy out of Iraq in an orderly fashion but remain in the region. We can give the Iraqi government time to assert its authority if it is so inclined. And with both allies and enemies we can try to manage the chaos that will follow. This btw is the Murtha Plan as I understand it.
Dixie Chicks on Tweety promoting “Shut Up and Sing”
I’ll have an update later this evening, but am tied up in rehearsals and travel until about 7:30 p.m. pdt. Pass the word on Diane Benson’s surge if you will….
As I’ve said here MANY times before, this seat is the least expensive pick-up in the house there is.
Michael Musto wannabe, Matt Drudge has the “bombshell” of all bombshells.
George Allen is going to “expose” the writings of Jim Webb.
Apparently a fiction novel with some sex scenes between minors.
Democrats write novels with saucy sex scenes, Republicans have sex with minors, see, moral equivalence.
-GSD
This is going to torpedo Allen. He is a dumb man.
It’s not a war
Professor George Lakoff
Hugh @ 99
Agreed. ‘Murtha’ gets us out, but what then?
Although we have lost our voice as an independent broker in the Mid-East, we could acknowledge our obvious plight and work with NATO and the UN a la Yugoslavia or be ‘content’ with a Vietnam or, even,a Darfur-like outcome!
ET- egAB linky?
GSD @ 103
you have a lot more faith in our fellow Americans than I do.
Blank Kludge @ 89
Thanks for the support. The eyes are a little bleary and the paid work suffering.
But yes, here’s hoping that Joe is forced to release those journals. There are probably a lot of Joe2006 paid volunteer interns getting writer’s cramp to get them finished before the feds come knocking.
Beyond, the fact that no one has spent beyond $10k for petty cash, I don’t think anyone has spent >$387k for all non-media expenses combined. Getting those numbers would require more time than I could dedicate (unless someone can think of a good way to get fat pdf scans processed through a character recognition program or finding someone else’s summary data.
john in sacramento @ 104
True.
GSD @ 103
More sludge from da’ Drudge. Who’da thought?
“When you live in a sewer, your only friends are rats”.
“Winning the elections will feel great… but what do we do to force a change in course in Iraq after we win?”
Just thoughts:
1. Some of us believe that there is no way the US can fix the mess it has created. The only realistic option is to cut further losses. This means some type of phased withdrawal (still mostly undefined).
2. But the battle in the Administration is apparently between (1) politically camflouged versions of “stay the course” mostly to keep from overtly “losing,” (Baker) and (2) escalating the war on the assumption that it is still “winnable” and more force will do it.
3. I think our first job will be to discredit (2) as sheer lunacy and delusion.
4. The harder job will be to show that even (1) is only slightly less delusional. Only when we convince what I expect is a significant group who believe that somehow, staying in and plugging away might work — that this too is delusional will there be any thoughtful assessment of how we actually get out. We are not there yet.
People want us out by growing majorities, but few have thought about how to do it.
5. Finally conditions in Baghdad may force our hand no matter what is happening here. We could be asked to leave, and the whole country could turn on us, and we might have to fight out way out. Another outrage involving civilians, mosques might do that, but who knows.
Just guesses. I really have no idea.
scarecrow @ 91
Baker by getting tame Democrats like Hamilton to go along is not just looking for a graceful departure from Iraq but a way to minimize Bush’s and Republican responsibility for their failures there.
In two weeks, the Mighty Wurlitzer will turn on a dime, and Iraq will become the Democrat’s fault. Every moment we stay after Nov 7 will be Speaker Pelosi’s fault. All the mismanagement will be Speaker Pelosi’s fault. And that is what the Republicans will run against in 2008: The Democrat’s Iraq debacle.
Hey Twisted,
Finally got the one you sent yesterday – it was in the bulk bin.
Just shot you a response.
Sparcatus @ 75
Don’t you think news organizations are sniffing around this? They just don’t want to write about it unless & until they have something to report on?
Maybe I’m just naive.
At this point, I just don’t see any good options.
The “more U.S. forces” option is about four years too late. They would have been useful in controlling the country after Saddam fell, but the situation’s passed so far beyond that I just don’t see how it would be useful. As for becoming more “aggressive”, or whatever word they’ve settled on as their synonym for “kill ‘em all and let God sort ‘em out”, they seem to forget whom they’re dealing with. Iraq has been living with this sort of brutality for a generation – the only thing it will look like to them is more of the same.
Pulling out will be a problem for the reasons many folks have recited already. It’s just not easy when there’s chaos all around. It’s also going to leave Iraq in one hell of a mess. Unfortunately, it just seems ludicrous to think we can make it less of a mess.
Doing what we’ve been doing is even more ridiculous, I think. It’s clear that we’re not making things better. More force isn’t going to work. I don’t think that engaging Iraq’s neighbors is likely to help at this point, but it might be worth a try.
Like scarecrow, I clearly have no idea.
H.R. 4232
tfitznc @ 105
Then everyone deals with what comes next and that will likely be a bigger civil war and chaos. The worst case scenario is a regional conflict. There will be no NATO, UN, or Arab League troops. That option died 3 years ago with the bombings of the Jordanian Embassy and the UN Headquarters. Even the British are moving in the direction of a pull out.
As to ‘no good options’ in Iraq. Pull out now. Might work.
dab from CT @ 115
So many topics are absent from the news today.
Polls are cheaper to analyze than real reporting.
A few easily missed top hits, imo.
Afghanistan and Iraq
Joe’s enormous petty cash expeditures
Bob Ney? has he resigned?
Foley, Kolbe etc.
Webb’s ballot problem
We do have historical parallels.
If we view the outcome of a divided Iraq as inevitable as was the re-nationalization after the breakup of the USSR, then Iraq is a natural process that we accelerated. It is not our job to FIX, but rather to work with the UN, NATO, Iran . . . Greenpeace – whomever – to allow for an orderly transition to a Kurd, Shia and ?Sunni states.
This realization is where I think we have to start. I call it the “quagmire corollary” to Powell’s principle that “if you break it, you own it.”
The longer we resist pulling out of Iraq, the more we put off the inevitable. The primary concern is loss of life. Not loss of face.
I’m sorryHugh @ 117
I’m sorry, maybe I missed the part about us asking the world community for help. IMO, Clinton macro-managed the Yugo conflict with finesse. Let’s not say that we can’t pull out because we fear chaos.
Jane has a new thread upstairs Blue America
Oklahoma kiddo @ 123
For “reasoning” folks, I agree.
For Repugs, it’s their face…and your life.
Wanna bet which one they’re more concerned about losing?
Partition is not practical. Baghdad is the largest Sunni, Shia, and Kurdish city in Iraq. Partition would likely lead to a regional conflict with Turkey and Iran intervening in Kurdistan, Iran supporting Iraqi Shi’ites, and Saudi Arabia and other Sunni states supporting Iraqi Sunnis. Partition would also imply a non-viable Sunni area in central Iraq with oil regions under Kurdish and Shia control.
tfitznc @ 121
What pathetic, twisted spin.
I don’t speak for any other Greenpeace volunteer, but the historical parallels I find here are with the Nuremberg Trials (for war crimes) and the Nuremberg Rallies (for war propaganda).
The Iraq war is a massive human rights crime against the civilian population.
Hundreds of thousands are dead; millions displaced.
The puerile geo-babble above fails to recognize this crime.
Bush “accelerated” Iraqi political development like the SS “facilitated” Jewish mobility.
kirk murphy @ 128
kirk murphy says:
“The Iraq war is a massive human rights crime against the civilian population.”
Yes. And the perps must be brought to justice.
Oklahoma kiddo @ 130
ditto.
Bush has to go for peace to have a chance.
911 3021, Iraq 2809 US 3047 Total coalition…
Swopa, et al; they simply cannot talk about the specifics of ANY plan. Now that Iraq is such a total shitmire, reality-words are reverse daggers; they stab backwards, at the denial-queen idjits who are using them.
All they have left to talk about, are two things:
Churchillian platitudes (from a group of people whose collective personal character is lower and more disfunctional than any District of Columbia pimp or drug dealer) and, of course (for the blogging “base”; Bill Clinton’s ever-handy dick.
There is a CANCER on America…
…and it is called the Bush administration.