Most people who still support Joe Lieberman inexplicably cite his "experience" as the number one reason. This has always been rather incomprehensible to me, because his "experience" is what mired us our current disaster of a war. But you would think someone who was an uber hawk, a quote-unquote "expert" on the Middle East and someone who was casting regular votes that would decide the fate of the region might know something about it. As Paul Bass notes from tonight's debate:
“Islamic terrorists … are out to destroy our way of life and as many of us as we can,” Joe Lieberman… said. “We have to do everything we can to capture and kill them.” At the same time, the U.S. needs to work hard to win the Islamic world’s “hearts and minds.”
That’s why he doesn’t want to “pull out of Iraq” without a clear victory, Lieberman said – he worries that doing so would encourage terrorists. “I’ve traveled to just about every Arab country except Iran” and learned the importance of this issue, Lieberman said.
Someone who wants to win over "hearts and minds," and who in the last debate called for regime change in Iran, might want to reserve expressing further opinion on the situation until coming to terms with the remedial fact that Iran is not an Arab country (a mistake that many a warmonger seems to be making these days).
File under "The Idiots Who Lead Us."
Update: Digby has more on potty mouth Nixonian Lieberman.
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Go Ned!! Did I get zed??
Experience like Joe’s we can live without!
Hey KY Wo, you seem lonely, so I thought I should say hi. I just got in from an errand and found you all alone.
Close as I’ll ever come to Fitz!
What to do?
Watch the debate on Cspan, at 11 or The Daily Show…
“Hearts and minds” is the biggest load of crap ever uttered. We just want their fracking oil.
I believe about half of Iran is Persian, but not certain.
Regardless, thanks for hammering Lieberman relentlessly and effectively. Ned may pull this off! How exciting.
Some of us do know that Iran is not an Arab country. Neither is Malaysia and they have lots of Muslims there, too. When does Joe think we should go get them, I wonder?
Ah…why thank you for being so kind, Gnome, I was returning my 21 month olds “passi” when you came over to keep me company! I apologize for not coming downstairs faster.
I can’t WAIT to see the re-broadcast of the debate on C-Span! The excitement in the previous threads has me psyched! Sounds like Ned squashed Loserman! As I expected.
Why would we want someone in office who has loads of experience being a weasel?
Evidently after the debate Lieberman walked up to Ned and said “You goddamn sonovabitch,” and something to the effect of “how dare you run those direct mail pieces accusing me of voting for the energy bill in 2005 because of campaign contributions from the oil companies.” Joe’s losing it.
Mr. Lieberman, this is not about YOUR experience. It’s about OUR experience. With you. And it’s not just the Iraq thing I find so bothersome about Lieberman. It’s his irresponsibility in not putting forth much effort in helping to resolve the many problems that plague the Middle East over his eighteen year tenure.
Another brilliant statement from the LieberCamp.
This man has to go.
If this man ever wakes up from his dream world, he would see the fool he has become
When Joe made that “hearts and minds” comment, my first thought was ‘with torture’, Joe?
By the way, here’s wiki on Hearts and Minds:
Over the years, “Hearts and Minds” became a shorthand reference for disingenuous and misguided attempts to use a military to make a subjugated population behave more like its conquerors.
Oops. My last comment was via Digby, who has a great new Nixon angle on pious Joe.
Olberdrive!
ifthethunderdontgetya: nice link, great history, popping its ugly head up again and again.
“I’ve traveled to just about every Arab country except Iran”
LOL So I guess he’s traveled to EVERY Arab county then ; )
Idiot.
CSPAN replay now…
Garbage AP article on the debate:
http://www.courant.com/news/po…..5569.story
Someone who wants to win over “hearts and minds,” and who in the last debate called for regime change in Iran, might want to reserve expressing further opinion on the situation until coming to terms with the remedial fact that Iran is not an Arab country (a mistake that many a warmonger seems to be making these days).
Persian, great catch, I hope the TM rakes Joe over this.
“Islamic terrorists … are out to destroy our way of life and as many of us as we can,” Joe Lieberman… said. “We have to do everything we can to capture and kill them.” At the same time, the U.S. needs to work hard to win the Islamic world’s “hearts and minds.”
Let’s see now… the invasion of Iraq and our continuing presence there is creating more terrorists- more hate- because of our own hateful behavior there- torture and what not, eh? So…let’s just capture and kill more of them, right Joe? That’ll help win the Islamic world’s hearts and minds, sure.
Someone needs to ask Lieberman if Iraq is the central front on the war on terrorism. I have a theory you will not be hearing that expression from the admin during the next two weeks. Because it begs the question of why the sole-remaining-superpower is acting like it is losing.
It’s truly remarkable that in so few sentences, Liebermunch encapsulates what is so fundamentally WRONG about our Middle Eastern foreign policy to reduce the incidence of violent islamic extremism.
Well, good news! Local ABC/WTNH TV’s late night news made a point of stating that the hecklers were not affliated with any of the parties or their supporters. Nor did they include the segment wherein Lieberman called them Lamont supporters.
The recap they showed was reasonably balanced, which to me means that Lamont shined out as the one in tune with America.
Unfortunately, “Arabs”, “Muslims” & “terrorist” are most likely interchangable terms for Joe’s targeted demographic.
The AP does it again.
The AP article at Hartford Courant had this crap to dish out: ‘The latest attack in what has been an extremely negative race is, the Lamont camp says, its filing a formal complaint with a federal agency against Senator Joe Lieberman for not accounting for $387,000 in petty cash. Lieberman’s camp says that money went to young field workers.’
http://www.courant.com/news/po…..5569.story
There’s a picture that makes it look like Lamont is attacking Schlesinger and Lieberman is mediating.
What BS!
EPU’ed in response to T. Atkinson #79 last thread,
My answer would be that Joe Lieberman has come to symbolize everything that’s wrong with the Democratic Party. Instead of being an opposition party and a voice raised against the most extensive assault on our rights and our intelligence by the most corrupt, criminal, and incompetent Administration in our history, Democrats rolled over like a dog wanting its tummy rubbed. And of all the Democrats who enabled and gave cover to this madness, Joe Lieberman was number one. With whiny sanctimony, he castigated Clinton’s peccadillos but for Bush’s trashing of the Constitution and his endless litany of disasters, he has had nothing but praise. He represents the elected official who remembers he has constituents only around election time and only as much as is necessary. He stands for nothing outside his own desire to retain his office, an office to which he feels entitled. He has an 18 year record which he is running from, not on. He feels free to lecture everyone else about their morals but never questions the morality of his own win-at-all-costs philosophy. He is the epitome of the hollow man and the sickness that afflicts the Democratic Party, our politics, and our country.
Compound F at 7:59 pm
You don’t have a source or a link do you?
There are Persian Jews who live in Iran. They go to temple, speak Farci, and love their homeland. It is a culturally diverse country.
It is intellectually dishonest for hawks to weigh the negative and positive aspects of going to war, without admitting that they are promoting the murder of unarmed civilians. They can label it collateral damage if they choose, but since it is a known it is premeditated murder.
Sorry xyz – I started at the bottom of the thread and didn’t see that you posted the link first
Nevermind…
dab- I wish that the phrase “petty cash” would just go away- the Lieberman campaign cannot account for $387,000 (nearly 1/12 of its expenses) of its expenditures. This is not “petty cash”
This petty cash business sounds like how business is done in Eye-rack. I guess old Joe took a page from KBR or something. The just rolled out a pallet of cash and handed it to teenagers.
bg @ 33
Gee, how odd. No accountability, no plan, not enough people. And Joe lost the primary.
Sounds like the same game plan as Iraq.
And, gee, Republicans were involved in both….
Jane. Typo in what you bolded. I quoted it but fixed my quote ; )
Rayne here? I left a partial response to your Q on the last thread.
VG @ 22 – I had the same thought reading that quote. I suspect that Iran is worth more to the future of the world than Joe is.
John Casper@ 29
CIA worldfact book:
Persian 51%, Azeri 24%, Gilaki and Mazandarani 8%, Kurd 7%, Arab 3%, Lur 2%, Baloch 2%, Turkmen 2%, other 1%
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ir.html
Now I’m completely for Ned, without exception… but he missed so many chances during the debate. Lieberman would leave one hanging, or Schlesinger would set him up, but Ned didn’t complete a couple of what could have been classic rebuttals. He still did well in his answers, but there were just so many times he could have landed a knockout punch.
This whole undocumented “petty cash” thing reminds me of wonderful song, Little Tin Box” from a Pulitzer Prize-winning musical, “Fiorello!” about New York City mayor Fiorello H. LaGuardia, a reform Republican who took on Tammany Hall.
The musical contains several songs built around a group of machine politicians…
In the song a “Little Tin Box”, some Tammany politicians image how they would attempt to explain to a judge that their wealth came from their scrupulous habits of savings.
“Mr. X, may we ask you a question?
It’s amazing, is it not,
That the city pays you slightly less than fifty bucks a week,
Yet you’ve purchased a private yacht?
I am positive your Honor must be joking!
Any working man can do what I have done.
For a month or two I simply gave up smoking,
And I put my extra pennies one by one
Into a little tin box,
A little tin box
That a little tin key unlocks.
There is nothing unorthodox
About a little tin box.
In a little tin box.
A little tin box
That a little tin key unlocks.
There is honor and purity,
Lots of security,
In a little tin box.
Mr. Y, we’ve been told you don’t feel well,
And we know you’ve lost your voice,
But we wonder how you managed on the salary you make
To acquire a new Rolls-Royce.
You’re implyin’ I’m a crook and I say no, sir!
There is nothin’ in my past I care to hide.
I been takin’ emply bottles to the grocer
And each nickel that I got was put aside
(That he got was put aside)
Into a little tin box,
A little tin box
That a little tin key unlocks.
There is nothing unorthodox
About a little tin box.
In a little tin box,
A little tin box
There’s a cushion for life’s rude shocks.
There is faith, hope and charity,
Hard-won prosperity,
In a little tin box.
Mr. Z, you’re a junior official
And your income’s rather low,
Yet you’ve kept a dozen women in the very best hotels,
Would you kindly explain how so?
I can see your Honor doesn’t pull his punches,
And it looks a trifle fishy, I’ll admit.
But for one whole week I went without my lunches,
And it mounted up, your Honor, bit by bit.
(Up your Honor, bit by bit.)
It’s just a little tin box,
A little tin box
That a little tin key unlocks.
There is nothing unorthodox
About a little tin box.
In a little tin box,
A little tin box
All a-glitter with blue-chip stocks.
There is something delectable,
Almost respectable,
In a little tin box,
In a little tin box.
bluestatepride @ 39
Wow – my first message ever stuck in moderation.
Anyway – bluestatepride – I don’t think Ned is a knockout kind of guy
scarecrow — caught your response and montag’s, too. Good stuff; I knew there was more energy money than the obvious stuff like Texaco, Conoco, British Petroleum, Occidental Petroleum, American Gas Assocation, Consolidated Natural Gas and Interstate Natural Gas Association of America. You certainly opened up my eyes on the Sempra PAC donation — yeesh.
Same goes for nearly any other Repug, like G. Felix Allen (R-VA). Money from key industries gets reclassified under a different category in many cases; we have to learn to watch for that more carefully. Other Dems will not be immune to this if we do not change campaign finance, after all.
The remaining question now is whether any of the executives of energy companies (identified as such and otherwise) also made direct personal donations to Joe. Plenty more due diligence to do there.
Unfortunately, I have to hit the hay, long day with GOTV tomorrow. Best to you FirePups.
Interestingly, the CIA Factbook’s page on Iran says that arabic is spoken by one percent of the population. This represents yet another failure of our intelligence establishment, I guess. They couldn’t find WMD in Iraq or Arabs in Iran.
If Liebertoad gets angry enough, he may over-expend energy and forfeit his shapeshifting abilities.
Just saw Liebermunch say “your candidate Ned Lamont is asking you to stop” during the singing in the audience.
what_a_choad
.
Compound F @
11
Compound F, I was hoping you might have a link or a source on where you got this information.
Siun @
2
If you can live without Joe’s “experience, PLEASE write an email and send it to Barbara Boxer and let her know you’re not going to STAND for her continued support of Lieberman.
I CANNOT emphasize enough, that Boxer is a two-faced charlatan, a PRO-WAR Senator.
You cannot claim to be anti-war and continue to support Joe Lieberman. You can’t have one without the other.
I beg all of you, PLEASE contact Boxer and DEMAND she support Ned Lamont frequently, visibly and LOUDLY. If you’re a California voter, let her know your continued vote depends on it.
Is it possible that Lamont is in fact wanting to distanc himself from the pro-war Dems? And maybe would prefer they not campaign with/for him? What with his opposition to the war being a central element of his platform. Just wondering…
Cujo359 @ 43
I’m confuesd!? How does that represent an intelligence failure? It’s the IGNORANT neo cons, no? Not the intel community
Fern @ 48
You mean he doesn’t want Bill/Hillary to campaign with him? If so, I don’t think that would matter to Lamont – certainly wouldn’t impact my vote
Cozumel @ 48
Umm, if the CIA says that 3% of the population is Arab, it would kind of follow that more than 1% speak Arabic. In fact the percentage of Arabs in Iran is probably a bit higher–they are mostly centered in the area where the oil fields are (Baluchistan) and their roots are probably most closely tied to the Marsh Arabs of Iraq, many, many of them have jobs in oilfield services, so it would make sense for the Iranians to underreport their numbers.
Caught the debate. I must say that HoleyJoe was a step late in his every attempt at UPSTAGING the event. Ned show great poise and finished in a direct & honorable fashion. Man, that Senator has been there much too long. It’s evident he’s starting to cave under. Meltdown eminent!
dab from CT @
40
That’s wonderful! Thank you so much. I’d never heard of this.
Um..my first thought was, Wonder if this is on YouTube? ;) never mind!
Thank you all for your deeply felt, thoughtful responses. At the outset I have to note that I believe there are other sites where my question would have resulted in me being hounded out as a concern troll, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, and my comments would have been stricken.
Because you have been straight with me, let me be straight with you. And let me start with this admission:
In 2000 I voted for George Bush.
The reasons are varied, but I think that at bottom it had to do with my disgust at what I saw as President Clinton’s violation of the law. I’m an attorney, and to the marrow of my bones I believe in our system of laws and the ideal–the guiding principle of this nation–that we are governed not by men whose tyranny can be bent to the will of a majority, but in laws considered with the rights of the minority in mind. And those laws mean something. And when a President entrusted with the laws violates what is to me a sacred oath to tell the truth…well, it ate at me for two years. And I had voted for him twice. I felt like an accomplice.
Compound that with my general opinion that Al Gore’s campaign in 2000 was rather lackluster, and my belief that George Bush was (can I even type these words?) moderate in his views, I cast my vote for him. Humble in our foreign policy. Bringing ethics to the White House. All of that.
I remeber distinctly my disillusionment starting the day he took office. He signed an executive order banning the use of federal funds for abortions at military bases overseas. A friend snorted, “What did you expect?”
Skip ahead four years and one dumb stem cell decision, exorbinant vacation, bungling of the North Korea relationship, abandoning with vocal force Kyoto, an appallingly inadequate (and jingoistic) response to 9/11 in the immediate days after, one Iraq and a raft load of other messes slowly (or rapidly) compiled by this Administration, and I was out pushing for Kerry (alas, alas, also too slow on the draw, a little too lackluster, a little too compliantly pigeon-holed by the opposition).
Upshot: I stand before you now a man who now thinks the man he pollyannishly voted for in 2000 is the single worst President this Republic has ever suffered through, with the exception of Buchanan. Maybe Buchanan. Maybe.
I don’t need to list for any of you the reasons why. And I don’t need to note that I positively long for the leadership Clinton provided. Warts and all.
What does any of this have to do with Lieberman? It is painfully apparent that Joe Lieberman has moved so exceedingly past where even he was in 2000 that it is breathtaking. Here is a man who claims to represent ideals and principles that stand in contrast to all that Bush stands for, and yet…he doesn’t.
More than that, though, is this: Joe Lieberman’s mendacity is almost glass-like in its transparency. He scolded those who dared dissent (an antiquated notion that I suspect, when the worm turns, many on the right will be clamoring for), and did it in a way that was not only lacking in any respect or understanding of those on whose votes–and indeed, livelihood–he relied, but he did it seemingly because it was the best way to Go Along and Get Along.
For what end? To better the people of this nation or even the people of Connecticut? The answer it seems is: hardly.
Senator Lieberman seems to this outside observer to be interested in one thing and one thing only: the retention of power. He is striving not to advance any principle other than the principle that he should be Senator.
Those who read my earlier post saw a reference to Crocker Jarmon, the incumbent Senator Robert Redford defeats in the still-timely (perhaps all the more timely) film The Candidate. In that film Jarmon–like Lieberman–is content with being Senator, and not particularly enamored with having to justify why he should have that job to any voter. Lieberman is for Lieberman. That;s it. That’s all. There’s nothing more.
A nation of laws, our nation of laws, depends on the serious contemplation of policy, and the vigorous struggle for what is just. Otherwise, the laws are bankrupt.
Any man who places the comfort of his seat above that notion (and it is painfully apparent from the debate I saw tonight that that is what he is struggling for) deserves what he has–or should have–coming to him.
He deserves to lose the election.
And so should Lieberman.
Anyway. Thanks for humoring me and sharing your thoughts. Keep focused on the election. Keep focuised on the prize. Watch out for various small trees that can obscure your view of the forest.
Fight on for what you believe. Never quit.
And I’ll see you on the other bank.
Cozumel @ 9:05 pm (#49)
Yes, that’s what I was trying to imply. The Bush Admin and its apologists have been blaming the CIA for not finding WMDs in Iraq, or for not proving conclusively that there weren’t any (a logical impossibility, given the circumstances), depending on how they’re being accused of stupidity at the moment. All their talk about “intelligence failures” is either referring to the CIA’s inability to find something that wasn’t there, or their inability to make the President listen while they warned him about things that were there.
Sorta like not finding enough Arabs in Iran.
John Casper@46:
@15 I belatedly referred that quote to Digby. I have seen it elsewhere since, and don’t know who originated, but that’s a start.
Thanks Compound F, much appreciated.
Well I just finished watching the debate. Interesting to compare live blog to the televised version.
Joe is incompetent and such a nasty little neocon.
Alan is far more interested in fiscal responsibility, immigration control and social security.
Lamont is a clear (reasoned) moderate when juxtaposed with this line up of candidates. I sincerely believe he will work to end the occupation, reform health care and consider the humanity in front of all giant bureaucratic mechanizations of governance.
Trying to put myself in the position of a lower information voter I know I would vote for Senator Lamont. Alan Schlesinger would be better than Lieberman. Lieberman has had his chance, period.
What a fantastic finale for all three candidates to agree on the Gay in the military question!
Only folks who are pro war, have a financial steak in his winning or in some way sympathetic to the idea Lieberman deserves to keep the seat will vote for him, imo.
T. Atkinson @
54
I for one appreciate your thoughtful follow-up (abridged here). Don’t be a stranger – FDL may appear to be stridently progressive, but you’ll find a somewhat broad spectrum of readers and commenters. Civil discourse is generally the norm.
A mighty FDL welcome to you, T. Atkinson. Thoughtful converts will never find themselves shamed at the ‘lake. You’ll even learn that among us we have supporters of Bush’s Iraq Folly, now repentent — and stronger progressives for their journey.
No faith like that in a convert’s shining eyes. Looking forward to seeing you around, you’re a ‘pup now!
========
Had Enough?
========
Also, T. (if I may call you T.) there’s a healthily categorized FDL archive on the right upper side of the blog that may help if you’re interested in catching up. You’ll want to recognize that things are moving pretty fast here now — debate night right now, and a fourteen-day countdown to Saving Our Republic starting TOMORROW. So, ‘lakers may seem a little exasperated at catch-up questions if you’ve not dipped into the back issues before posing entirely valid queries. It’s not the questions we mind right now, it’s the limited time we see ahead of us to beat BushCo hard.
Again, welcome!
T. Atkinson – Welcome to the lake. Next time bring a beach towel and umbrella, stay awhile.
Now you may get an occasional “I could have told you so” or some sand kicked up in a kerfuffle but I am guessing you might enjoy the bbq enough to stick around.
Margot @ 53
This is one of the best songs ever from an undeservedly obscure musical! Actually, it’s sung by a group of cardplayers/party operatives, led by the great Howard DaSilva, who are gloating over the fact that their political enemies – Tammany Hall – are now on the legal ropes. Kinda like the whole Repug Culture of Corruption thing going on now. You can listen to a snippet of it here (scroll down – Windoz Media only). It has one of those singable melodies you’ll swear you’ve heard before. While you’re there, listen to the other cardplayers’ songs too: “Politics and Poker” and “The Bum Won.” My favorite line from the latter: “Who’d ever guessed that the people would go to the polls and elect a fanatic? People can do what they want to, but I’ve got a feeling it ain’t democratic!”
Any hints of a shift in momentum in this race? I’ve read the posts here about how the polls are untrustworthy etc. but I’m afraid it reads like whistling past the graveyard–the kind of thing you have to say when you’re guy is down by double digits two weeks out.
Sounds anti-Ned but it isn’t. I desperately want him to pull this one out. But damn. Does every candidate I put my hope (and money!) in have to get taken over by the hypercautious election-killing Demokratic Konsultant Korps? Like having the whole damn party run by concern trolls. Ack. Guess I’ll take my pessimism to bed and hope this post gets EPU’d….
The attacks on Holy Joe are back-firing b/c it does not matter if he has been a closet Republican or not, there was a D attached to his name for over 40 yrs. Joe will win the election regardless. Please save our energy for other races. People feel sympathy for Joe and large portion of ppl will vote for Holy Joe. It is over. The battle is over people. Save your energy and money for other races. my 2 cents.
Ye Gads! Iran is an “Arab” country? And how about the Ottoman empire? That was Arab too, right Joe? That’s offensive to the Persians and the Turks too. No offense to the Arabs, but that is definitely not winnning the hearts and minds of the ME, if he can’t even distinguish the different backgrounds that are a source of historical and cultural pride to some. I mean I doubt Lieberliar would call the English, Irish and v.v.
Perhaps a meme to counter the experience argument: Joe doesn’t have 18 years of experience–he’s had 1 year of experience 18 times.
Putting your butt in a chair for 18 years doesn’t make you wiser or smarter unless you actually learn some real lessons from doing it.