"The right to privacy should not be the right to hypocrisy. These people who want to demonize other people shouldn't be able to go home, close the door, and do it themselves." (Barney Frank on the practice of outing gay Republicans, hat-tip to my secret lovaaaah, Jesus' General)
I remember when I first stumbled into blogging back in 2003, one of the most contentious topics a blogger could raise was gay marriage. To put up a post about it was to instigate a long and seething thread where people would trot out their ugliest and most disturbing prejudices. At the time, I really sort of wished we'd never brought it up, because it made me realize just how disgustingly obtuse and willfully ignorant people could be. Every time a news story about gay marriage came on the radio or TV, I had to leave the room, because I knew that at any moment, some frothing bigot was going to be on to spout a shit-stream of, like, caveman rhetoric.
It's different now. Even in the last three years, we've seen a fundamental shift in the public's perception of the issue. Maybe once the issue got some coverage, people started to see the difference in the men and women arguing for equal rights for gays and the people arguing against it. Sometimes I believe that the television has caused a deep and fundamental erosion of people's ability to know when they are being lied to, but perhaps I am lamenting the death of that cognitive ability prematurely. The Great Reich Wing Stink Machine may finally have thrown a rod or maybe, just maybe, people have decided that since the Republicans have lied about everything else, they must be lying about the threat gay people pose to the fabric of civilization.
(But you know, if I ever want to shoot down a concept permanently, to make absolutely certain that the public will roundly reject it, I will ask an oily reptile like Bill Frist to stump for it. The man could put you off sex and donuts forever just by advocating them. He has a kind of anti-charisma. Whatever quality it is that makes Dr. Frist so irresistable to congregations of Rapture-baiters is the very quality that makes him so deeply repellent to the average citizen.)
On this Bill Maher panel, in under three minutes, Barney Frank manages to completely bitch-slap GOP sock-puppet Stephen Moore and on the way by, fires a well-aimed scud-missile at the bullshit hypocrisy and self-delusion practiced by any gay person who works for the Reich Wing.
"There are fifteen year olds in this country today in high school whose lives are being made miserable because they're gay and lesbian. And people who are themselves gay adults and are enjoying positions of power in Washington who advance that kind of abusive society, no, it has nothing to do with their economics, I find that contemptible."
AMEN, Brother Frank, AMEN!!
And that's the truth of it. Gay Republicans are as bad as Nazi collaborators. They are working with the people who would outlaw and exterminate their own kind. And to any moral person, that would be an untenable position. They are not entitled to privacy. It's open season. I am going to be front and center enjoying every bit of the excruciating personal agony and political destruction that is going to rain down like fire from heaven on outed Republicans. The only reason that Mark Foley's sexual orientation is germane to discussion of his being a sexual predator is because secrecy and repression lead to perversion and abuse like rain and sunshine lead to grass growing and flowers blooming. The kind of world the Republicans want where no one talks about what's really going on is a playground for predators. The more closets there are in the world, the more damage will be done to young people and gay people of all ages. Period.
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Sorry this is so late, everybody. Busy day.
Amen! (I waited up for you, TRex.)
Rootz, Fitz, TRex, Jane, Redhedd and every other affirmation we can muster. I watched this Friday night and thought would that every other Democrat could speak this clearly and forcefully. We’re all entitled to freedom and privacy..but not hypocrisy. That’s what I love about this site and its posters. We call these a**holes out!
TRex- I actually thought you were holding off posting because of the heated/ engaged discussion going on downstairs!!!
Valley Girl @ 4
Huh? Oh, god, I refuse to look. They bring some shit up here, I’m going to bust some heads.
VG! You’ve been very busy downstairs today. Good sleuthing going on there!
That would be Congressman Barney Frank — he won’t be Senator until John Kerry declines to seek reelection to his seat, to concentrate on running full time for the 2004 Democratic Presidential nomination.
TRex @ 5
Maybe Joe’s been using petty cash to finance some wedding trips over to Mass . . .
{ducking}
-ck- @
7
Dammit. I fixed that in one of my drafts, but then wordpress ate the post, so I had to revert to a saved version. Thanks for spotting that before too many people saw what an idiot I am.
Re: Helpless Dancer @ 39 in the previous thread (“Where’s The Journal, Joe?”)
I believe that Nancy Pelosi is totally off base in ruling out impeachment at this point that it makes her unqualified to be Speaker. By taking it “off the table” she is taking a leaf out of George W. Bush’s book by in essence asserting that she can decide which of her Constitutional responsibilities she will and will not perform.
If the Democrats take control of the House, it is very possible, likely even, that the oversight investigations that will be enabled by Democratic subpoena power will expose administration malfeasance well in excess of what led to Nixon’s resignation 32 years ago. It is also more than possible that the administration will trigger a Constitutional crisis sooner rather than later by totally stonewalling such investigations by asserting their virtually unlimited concept of Executive Branch power. Finally, it is virtually certain that Cheney is deeply complicit in whatever actions Bush has undertaken that are found to rise to the level of the impeachable. This means that an impeachment action would have to take on the two of them (this will raise troubling timing issues that are beyond my scope here), leaving the Democratic Speaker next in line to succeed to the Presidency.
The upshot of all this is that it is very possible the Democrat-controlled House, with Pelosi as Speaker, will be faced with a Hobson’s choice of either putting her in a position of having to go back on her “off the table” promise, or letting the administration off the hook for patently obvious “high crimes and misdemeanors.” The latter case would set an ominous precedent, whereas the former would set off a political firestorm with screams of “Usurper” ringing through the halls of the Capitol and in the streets around the nation. This latter scenario would be bad enough even without an “off the table” promise, but going back on that promise would be gasoline on the fire. And I haven’t even begun to speculate on how much messier things might get if Bush and Cheney, finding their backs to the wall, try to tear up more pages of the Constitution or attempt to distract us with foreign adventures with even less risk analysis that was done on Iraq.
I believe that the next two years are going to prove to be among the most pivotal in American history. If the Republicans retain control of both Houses, it will very likely put our country into an irrecoverable downward slide. Urgent threats will remain un-addressed, the trash-talking foreign policy will alienate even more people throughout the rest of the world (if that’s possible), corruption will remain rampant, and the fiscal health of the country will continue to decline. Within a decade or two the United States will be about as influential in the world as Britain and France, individually, are now. On the other hand, if the Democrats win the House I believe that the resulting investigations, together with the administration’s response to them, will trigger a Constitutional crisis that will create more conflict within the nation than we have seen at any time since the Civil War.
As I said at the outset, I believe Nancy Pelosi has no right to “take impeachment off the table”. Neither she nor any other member of the House has the right to walk away from the Constitutional responsibility to impeach in the event “high crimes and misdemeanors” are discovered. And as I also said, these next two years are going to be a wild ride on a rocky road. Because of this responsible people who care about the future we’ll be leaving for our children and grandchildren must start thinking about how to preserve, and hopefully enhance what’s left of the cohesiveness of our body politic. To this end, I’m going to put out there several suggestions that will probably result in some brickbats in return from the FDL community; these are based on the assumption that the Dems will win the House and that Nancy Pelosi will be elected Speaker. Here goes.
1. When Reps. Waxman, Conyers, Frank, Rangel and Obey begin their investigations, as Jane described in her post earlier today, the Speaker and the rest of the leadership must see to it that the probes are conducted as fairly as possible, with as little political grandstanding as possible.
2. The Democratic majority must do all in its power to assure that diminishing handful of centrist and classical conservative members of the Republican caucus (i.e. the ones who still believe in such quaint notions as minimal government intrusion into one’s personal life and financial affairs; fiscal responsibility; the separation of governmental powers; no searching or wiretapping without a warrant; habeus corpus; etc., as opposed to the Constitution-trashing wingnut majority) perceive that the investigations are fair and fact-based.
3. If (or more likely when) it appears that either the findings or the administration stonewalling of Congressional prerogatives rise to the level of the impeachable, the House Democratic leadership should initiate negotiations with members of the centrist/classical conservative rump of the Republican minority to reorganize the House for the duration of the impeachment process along the following lines:
A member of the Republican rump, acceptable to the Democrats, would become Speaker.
If the new Speaker succeeded to the Presidency, he or she would agree not to run for President in 2008.
Upon his or her succession to the Presidency, all other terms of the agreement between the Democrats and the centrist/classical conservative rump will become null and void unless there is explicit agreement to the contrary.
OK, calm down everyone. (Jane and Christy, please don’t block my IP address.) Give me a chance to explain the three major reasons I propose these. The first is the need to minimize the divisiveness that these likely events of the next two years will inevitably induce. I spend a fair amount of time reading opinion across political spectrum, and it obvious that there are a lot classical conservatives who are deeply upset about the direction the Bush-Cheney administration is taking the nation and the Republican party. The Democrats need to gain the support of these people in order to enhance the legitimacy of the process. Up to now the administration’s blend of carrots, sticks, compromising photos and horses heads on pillows has kept the heads down of the Congressional members with these sympathies, but there has to be a few dozen there.
Secondly, even if the Senate goes Democratic it will be by a razor thin margin. But if bills of impeachment are brought, the Senate will sit in judgment and a two-thirds vote is necessary to convict. There is no chance that this super-majority can be achieved unless the impeachment bills have been passed with substantial bi-partisan support in the House.
Finally, the inflammatory potential of both the President and Vice President being removed and replaced by a Speaker of the House of the opposite major party cannot be underestimated. If the Speaker standing next in line to become President is of the same party as the soon to be ex President and Vice President, it will go a long way to defuse the potential for the politics of these next two years to be taken into the streets. If this situation has come about because of Nancy Pelosi’s statesperson-like action of relinquishing the Speakership temporarily, it will give political cover for those of the Republican Senators who have passed much of the kool-aide out of their bladders to evaluate the impeachment bills on their facts and merits, and thus be more likely to bring the Bush-Cheney national nightmare to a early close.
Bed time. Good night.
I’m still trying to figure out if the bit about Kerry running in 2004 was a typo, or just a nice bit of snark about Kerry finally taking his 2004 run seriously. Like caring that the votes were counted.
Had a bit of fun at Ken Blackwell’s expense here.
(Yeah, I posted the link already, but how was I to know the changing of the thread was coming so soon?)
OT, but I had to share –
Ms. Redshift tentatively asked her father, retired Marine and lifelong Republican, what he thought about the VA senate race. He crossed over to vote for Webb in the primary, and we thought he might not vote for senate in the general election, but didn’t dare to hope for more than that. The punchline of his response: “Anyone who makes fun of someone for the color of his skin deserves to get his ass kicked!”
This is gonna be fun!
Thanks for the post. I don’t buy the whole Log Cabin “work from the inside” line of crap.
That’s what ulcers do.
Here’s my little offering to Gay Republicans:
Who Will Cry For Mary Cheney?
I hope a lot of Virginian Republicans think like Ms. Redshift’s father, at least enough of them to turn the tide for Webb.
TRex @ 9
Don’t worry, we always close our eyes when we read your posts. LOL!
Harvey Milk’s refrain: You gotta give ‘em hope.
He meant hope for all, but especially for the young gays and lesbians too scared to come out in small town, red state places. Just knowing that places exist where gays CAN come out, living out loud and proud, gives a sense of hope and possibility to those feeling trapped in a closet.
You gotta give ‘em hope.
I remember when I first started blogging, back in the dark ages (Nov. 2004) and a lot of folks on Kos were always telling gays and women to suck it up for the good of the party, as if we owed some kind of loyalty to those who wanted to sell us down the river and make us second class citizens.
You hear a lot less of that these days. I guess the politics of appeasement really didn’t take the day, did it?
You hear a lot less of that these days. I guess the politics of appeasement really didn’t take the day, did it?
ATTACK!!
ATTACK!!
ATTAAAAAAAAAAACK!!
Minnesotachuck @
10
much food for thought there, Chuck
good night and a heavy breakfast of your proposals…
Jane Hamsher @ 17
It’s just a short ride down that river, dontcha know . . .
Beautifully said, Mr. TRex.
RBG @ 21
Mon plaisir, monsier.
Minnesotachuck @ 10
The wingers would shriek like one of the Bane Sidhe, but that is only to be expected. A lot of the fallout could be averted if she did not run for reelection in 08. Enough of that though, I don’t want TRex to start busting heads so early in the thread.
Good lord, I’m tired. That drive from Columbus to Athens is this looooooong stretch of boredom followed by the white-knuckled terror of driving through Atlanta. Even in the middle of the night, driving in Atlanta is like roller skating in a stampede of buffalo.
sgary @
13
LOL
Oh my gosh, you almost had me choking on a half of an Oreo. Warn a person next time, please!;)
Speaking of gay Republicans…
You’re so big, TRex, you could just step on and over the bufffalo to Athens. Why drive?
Trex – glad you made it home safe! Atlanta traffic always terrified me … and I was in a cab!
and lovely tribute to Barney Frank – such clear spoken smarts.
Readi stuff all over the internet about how miserable GW Clusterfuck’s life will be if dems take over one or both houses of congress- gives me the jollies to even consider the possibilitis.
Will the little bastard cry at night? Will he wail at the moon? Will he suffer from heartburn and other malicious infirmties of the flesh? Will he lose his appetite and spend his evenings in sleepless agony about his errors of judgement and errors of moral sense- Shit I HOPE so- he really deserves to be the World’s most miserable human being for 20 years or so.
Miserable prick!
and lovely tribute to Barney Frank – such clear spoken smarts.
God, seriously. Is he, like, the only Democrat who missed his castration appointment? Why can’t they all be this tough and smart?
Takes a lot of balls to be a fairy in this world. Barney Frank’s must be made of solid steel.
Will the little bastard cry at night? Will he wail at the moon? Will he suffer from heartburn and other malicious infirmties of the flesh? Will he lose his appetite and spend his evenings in sleepless agony about his errors of judgement and errors of moral sense- Shit I HOPE so- he really deserves to be the World’s most miserable human being for 20 years or so.
Miserable prick!
He’ll be clearing brush at his heavily fortified compound in Paraguay, guarded by Blackwater contractors and pampered like an emperor to the end of his days.
But at least he won’t be here.
Hey Clusterfuck- did ya know that if ya cough to hard when yer scared shitless- yer dick will fall off? Just thought you’d like ta know.
He has a dick?
Shhh! I’m hunting wapublicans.
Jane Wyatt, who reigned as America’s ideal suburban mom during the 1950’s when she starred with Robert Young in the television sitcom “Father Knows Best” and who nearly lured Ronald Colman away from diplomacy and into a lamasery in Frank Capra’s 1937 film “Lost Horizon,” died on Friday at her home in Bel Air, Calif. She was 95.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10…..r=homepage
Anyone read Dante recently? Got a good eternal punishment for GW Clusterfuck?
Do you ever get to drive on snow in Atlanta? I’m from
Idaho and learn to manage — which leads me to my
next question– how do we get our senator to accept
what is real? The boiler-plate around this guy is un-
believable.
The only thing I know for sure is that I don’t want to see GW Clusterfuck die early. That’s the easy way out- better to watch various parts of his body rot off one at a time and for him to end his days wriggling like a worm from place to place- stark buck ass naked and stupid as a jay bird.
TRex @ 29
Barney’s always been that way. He took a ration of shit from the press and the GOP when he came out in the `80s and just kept right on going. In fact, I think the GOP tries hard to accentuate his sexual preferences because they can’t refute his logic on legislation. He’s as hardnosed as they come on the issues. And the GOP hates that. He’s got skin like, well, a TRex. :)
The main thing about Barney is that he’s twice as smart as anyone else in Washington. He’s got lots of free time waitin for everyone else to catch up with him.
rwcole @
35
I’m thinking less Dante more Heironymous Bosch.
rwcole @ 35
Actually, yes, I do. Trapped in a small room, with eternal Asian flu (stuff coming out of both ends) while a small Pakistani man burns soybean oil in a skillet on a hot plate, humming Christmas songs while loudspeakers play endless Barry Manilow. Bush is told he can leave when he can perfectly recite Joyce’s Finnegan’s Wake backwards. He’s the lit’ry type, after all.
rwcole @ 39
I’d hit it. Just on principle.
OT – TRex, before I forget: should you ever feel compelled to write about Atlas Jugs again – and I hope that’s an unlikely event, for your sake – I proffer a back-up monicker: ImbeSilcone
TRex @ 30
Junya and crew might be forgetting that their “Get Out of Jail Free” cards for torture are only valid in the good ol’ USA.
Not so good elsewhere even if Junya does hablas a little espanol.
And “rendition” is a 2-way street!
TRex @ 40
How about wearing knickers and being at his mother’s beck and call.
And “rendition” is a 2-way street!
I say we let them go to Paraguay, make a lot of noise, and act all outraged, and then quietly drop a tactical nuke on their compound in the middle of the night.
Amen, Brother Frank, indeed. A post well worth waiting for, TRex. Bless Barney’s heart for eschewing the obfuscation and boiling the true issue down to a couple of paragraphs anyone can understand.
sgary, speaking of those puzzling Log Cabin Republicans…run, don’t walk, to locate David Rakoff’s new essay collection Don’t Get Too Comfortable. His piece about the Log Cabin crew, complete with interviews, is an absolute classic of humor writing, IMHO. The title ain’t bad, either: “Beat Me, Daddy…”
Maybe chewin his momma’s knickers for a couple of thousand years.
Anyone who hates themselves enough to be a gay Republican, should consider also becoming a Jewish Nazi. I’m just saying…
TRex! Barney Frank!
When I think of of all the good people I’ve known over my life who struggled because they knew they were gay, but their life, family and society didn’t want to talk about, the people who took to drugs, or drinks, or other forms of self-destruction…
Right now, one of my best friends has an extra teenager in her house. One of her daughters is a member of the gay/straight alliance in school. Last week, one of her friends came up and asked if she could come and stay for a few days. She came out – she’s 17, 18 in January – to her family – it was very messy.
And they threw her out of the house. My friend called this girl’s parents, to let them know their daughter was safe. Her father hung up the phone.
My friend and her daughters will take care of this young, even if it means she stays with them until graduation next spring.
But there’s so many other kids out there, who will fall into deep pain and sorrow, who won’t ‘make it to the other side of adolescence’ because of the hate that is spewed against them.
I can’t stay to chat tonight, it’s been a long day. My laptop needs a new power adapter, so I’m using my honey’s Winmachine (shudder). I just got a call a couple of hours ago that an old friend of my wildly misspent youth died. We’d had a falling out a few years ago, and never patched it up. I’m going now to light and candle for his spirit, and have a good cry while I play his favorite Pink Floyd album. There will be one more name to call and bless on Samhaim, a rum & coke on the altar, and more tears to flow.
Peace to all, love to all,
rwcole @ 37
I think he’s got the “stupid as a jaybird” part down all ready.
Barney Frank for President
How about wearing knickers and being at his mother’s beck and call.
How about being smeared with shit and led around on a leash by Lynndie England?
rwcole @ 48
Ewww, pass the brain bleach please
Them’re some big fuckin knickers!
rwcole @
28
Well, we can live in hope that he’ll hold true to his past and, when things get really tough, just walk away.
LindyH @ 55
On fire.
LindyH @ 55
Or revert to previous form. I would delight in his doing lines on the podium during press conferences… or showing up drunk for the 2008 State of the Union address….
Oops, did I say that out loud?
Minnesotachuck @
10
fascinating analysis and hypothesis. not to put too fine a point on it, but perhaps she means it’s off the table based on what we know now. still, no question it would cause a firestorm. much to ponder.
LOL … I do love late nite!
TRex @ 58
Siun @ 60
so does the NSA…
punaise @ 59
I think the Dems just need to start poking into all the shit that’s been going on for the last six years, and have 10% of it reported in the news. After all, if there’s a public outcry for Bush’s and Cheney’s asses, the Dems would be remiss in their duties not to oblige. :)
The truth shall set you free – which is what the Publicans are so scared of. The truth. About anything.
They can’t handle the truth.
punaise @ 61
In that case. NSA: Not So Alert. Remember 9/11, guys?
Here’s where you can git yerself one of them dandy blue chambray work shirts that the Preznit is always wearin’ when he is chainsawing that pesky brush down on the ranch in Texas-
http://www.llbean.com/webapp/w…..mp;feat=sr
I can kinda see GW Clusterfuck losin his last little link to reality- and spendin his last two years walkin from one speakin engagement to another with a giat pantload- which would be the perfect harmony and counterpoint to his “message”
It’s the only way to be sure.
“why does he walk that way daddy”?
“You would too if yer pants wer full a shit”
on the Nancy Pelosi thing – the piece was very well done and definitely a plus in light of all the “be afraid of Speaker Pelosi” nonsense the repubs are tossing around … 60 Minutes has been planning this piece for a long time since they spoke with me about filming for it during YKOS and then Pelosi cancelled …
but the idea of taking impeachment off the table is so wrong … just stand for the constitution and the rule of law … it’s so simple and right …then let the chips fall where they may
It’s the only way to be sure.
For every roach you see, there are hundreds more out of sight.
montag @ 62
To get a public outcry requires the cooperation of the MSM and I have my doubts considering thier track record. Although they are starting to show signs of seeing which way the parade is going and running to get out in front.
TRex @
52
You know, the Italians did a pretty good job of dealing with their infestation of fascism…
Crew on airforce one:
Get that smelly little bastard off the fuckin plane!
SusanD @ 67
But, but, but, what would the Company say?
elrod @ 65
I always thought “cutting brush” was metaphor for clearing the way for the PNAC. You know damned well that man is too lazy to do the work it takes to clear land. Photo ops is what he excels at.
CLOSETSPhoto ops is what he excels at.
It may be the only thing he excels at.
“Cuttin brush” is Clusterfuck for cuttin a deadly fart.. makes him laugh his fuckin ass off.
montag @ 62
or 110%, even :-P
TeddySanFran @ 76
Sunshine.
Fresh air.
montag @ 62
Montag: I think you’re right. The Democrats currently in the House and Senate are saying that they have to hold hearings to find out what’s what and they’ll see where it leads. The people responsible will be held accountable, but they are not willing to put the “I’ word out there now.
My take on what Pelosi was saying was that she, not the Republican party, will determine what gets talked about, if the Dem’s retake.
She sets the agenda. George and Karl-boy do not.
Why impeach Clusterfuck- treat him like a toy. Call him down to give testimony every week and laugh at his stupidity.
That whole “clearing brush” thing is laughable. What’s he clearing land for? He’s scared of horses and cows, I can’t imagine him planting a crop. So what’s the point? A whole lot of useless activity with loud manly power tools. I can only assume he imagines it convinces people that he has a penis.
punaise @ 59
I was thinking much the same thing. One possibility would be a repeat of the Spiro Agnew experience (I have all their records). Cheney resigns for “health reasons,” is replaced by someone blandly acceptable from the remaining Republicans in Congress. Junya’s then fair game.
More likely still is the Iran/Contra solution. Somebody from the Bush I era comes in as Chief of Staff/Regent and keeps GW from getting us all killed. Investigations pin blame for various malfeasance high – but not too high – up.
rwcole @ 83
Woo Hoo!
Treat Clusterfuck as the village idiot- arrange for small children to throw rotten vegetables at his as he winds his way through the last two years of his term.
Just imagine what a nightmare Bush will be to live with after the election. Any guesses as to how long before Laura moves out?
rwcole @ 86
W in stocks (no bonds) on the public square
I think the challenge for the Democrats will be to hold the Bushniks accountable for their crimes while simultaneously moving ahead with their own positive agenda, so as not to be vulnerable to accusations of ‘gotcha’ politics. Whack those fuckers for everything they have done over the past 6 years, but raise the minimum wage and pass health care legislation at the same time.
jinny @ 87
…
and Condi to move inLove ta see GW runnin naked for a couple of miles of closely coordinated bb gun fire-
This is from Red Ryder you sorry ass son of a bitch!!!!!
jinny @ 87
Nothing like an extended goodwill tour of eastern Outer Mongolia to cement good relations with the U.S.
punaise @ 91
Silly punaise! Everyone knows that Condi likes girls.
I can only assume he imagines it convinces people that he has a penis.
If Bush has a penis, he stole it from someone else.
I don’t really have any interest in impeachment per se — it would be political theater to symbolically remove a man who will be gone from office shortly anyway. I’d rather focus the nation’s gaze on rooting out the kleptocrats and the systems (K street/lobbyists/ campaign finance laws) that keep these nightmares happening over and over again. The nation only has a limited attention span, and if war profiteering (and other) hearings could begin to inform people in really human terms about WTF is so corrupt that we keep being led around by the Cheneys and the Rumsfelds who simply will not get off the national stage and keep coming back like zombies who just will not die I would rather see that.
I fear that impeachment hearings would simply lay the blame at Bush’s feet, and there are many who need to go down once and for all. But it looks like a sissy move to let the Republicans bully you into taking impeachment off the table.
Sorry, the optics are just weak. If things come to light that are so horrific (and the chances are good) that the public demands it, I don’t think it’s Pelosi’s business to stand as a barricade and protect GWB.
punaise @
91
Thought she already had – she’s always with them at Camp David and that place in Tx.
smiley @ 93
yeah, I heard. maybe she’d make an exception for
her husb… the preznit.Impeachment’s too good for the sorry ass bastard–
I think Dubya could be useful. Remember how he said that the Geneva Convention wording is too vague. “An assault on human dignity. What’s that?” I think he could help clarify the issue.
“OK George, today it’s electric shock to the genitals. After about 150volts, let us know how your dignity feels”
jinny @ 88
If you believe the scandal sheets, she already has.
http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/analysis/127
I don’t really have any interest in impeachment per se — it would be political theater to symbolically remove a man who will be gone from office shortly anyway.
It would be incredible if Congress could render the executive branch as redundant and useless as the WH has made Congress. In fact, that would be kind of beautiful. A 21st century Magna Carta that emasculates the office of the executive into a purely ceremonial position.
Nah, he just borrows one from time to time. Maybe that’s why Jeff was in the house so often.
I don’t think that GW Clusterfuck should ever be tortured- only that he should suffer exactly the same punishments as he has used on his conbatants.
Ruby Tuesday @
50
Bless you for your love toward your departed friend, even tho’ the quarrel was never patched up. There are enough experiences in this world to convince some (me included) that your friend kindly and lovingly accepts your gift of homage at his passing with playing Pink Floyd and the beverage toast. Kindness and love are never wasted in matters such as this.
In my opinion, Frist is not oily. He is totally dried up and, well, basically already dead. He just doesn’t know it yet, and neither do the other Repugs, who, like the boy in Sixth Sense, can see dead people.
In fact, dead people may be the only kind of people Repugs can see. Obviously they do not relate to live people such as still-living Iraqis, or still-living humans without health insurance, or still-living mothers on minimum wage.
(I know perfectly well that the above is a pretty stupid and low comment. My only excuse is that I just get so sick of all this repulsive lying, that nasty things sometimes come out of my finger tips and onto the keyboard. I apologize.)
I just got a call a couple of hours ago that an old friend of my wildly misspent youth died. We’d had a falling out a few years ago, and never patched it up. I’m going now to light and candle for his spirit, and have a good cry while I play his favorite Pink Floyd album. There will be one more name to call and bless on Samhaim, a rum & coke on the altar, and more tears to flow.
I’m so sorry, RT. Somehow, I missed that comment the first time around.
I believe that we leave all quarrels behind with our bodies when we go. Your friend loves you and sees you now.
Peace.
Jane@93
What about the strategy of impeaching from the ‘bottom up’? For example, once the evidence is crystal clear about the Iraq war lies you impeach Douglas Feith and Wolfowitz and Scooter Libby and go from there… ?
Once someone has been impeached, they can’t be pardoned and they can no longer again hold public office. So if we could impeach from the bottom up, the truth may come out about who knew and ordered what. No pardons could make for talkative little Scooters.
the sad one, chez hullabaloo:
TheGris @ 107
flipping burghers
punaise @ 107
I agree Jane, the cabal that has run this country into the ground, tossing away millions of dollars like it was toilet paper and selling our children’s futures away is what needs to be exposed. Minimize Bush and nail Cheney & the whole office of the VP for war crimes.
As it is, the funneled money from Abramoff, Cunningham and others into the RNC have been shut down. That is my kind of drowned it the bathtub. Still have not had much come out on the Cunningham/Wilkes 30 front groups which funneled money from the DoD via those front companies right into the RNC…
jinny @ 88
Didn’t someone mention months ago that she was already more or less moved into The Mayflower Hotel?
punaise @ 108
In Bushie parlance, that would be, ahem, manufacturing consent?
Barney Frank told us that “Mary Bono will bring you ice in winter.”
Perfect description of the ‘moderate’ Republican, Barney Frank also noted that nice person though she is, she votes as they dictate, and her GOP bosses are a bad, bad bunch. Barney Frank’s Roth event was a highlight, as was the Boxer and Miller reception last night.
Roth is itching to vote on the 9/11 Commission recommendations, Iraq, the Pell Grant program, rates on student loans. We’re all fired up. Barney Frank will head the Finance Committee, as he reminded us on his visit. Rep. Miller will head the Education Committee, as he noted last night.
whatever became of Dusty Foggo?
punaise @ 113
Sort of like saying, “where are the secret Eastern European toture cells?” :)
Patrick @ 85 writes,
That would be Jim Baker, and I suspect he will somehow or other be put into power. Theses wise guys’ problem is that Junior is actually the President. They never thought about that when they backed him to be, um, the President. I mean, it never occurred to them that he would behave other than as a docile puppet.
Now that W thinks he as a brain (due to being too dumb to know that he doesn’t have one) he also thinks he can actually rule! I suspect they have no good ideas about how to get around that.
Hey, welcome to the rest of the world, you putzes. Nobody else knows how to get rid of him, either. Next time think with your brains instead of your balls, geniuses.
Especially kickass post Trex – quite a righteous opus from Minn Chuck too
It’s not in our nature, we’re not Newt assholes – but I swear everything depends on our STOMPING THESE EVIL ANTI-HUMAN HYPOCRITICAL FUCKS INTO ABSOLUTE OBLIVION. Hypocrisy is not merely a by-product of some otherwise worthy project of theirs – it is the heart and soul of their entire fucked up existence. ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK. We need to DESTROY THIS CANCER on our nation with clear eyes. Darkblack’s amazing post the other day still rings in my mind. We must Buffy the fuck out of these fucks and never allow them to arise again. Pelosi, if you can’t discern what’s up and what must be done, please go play with your grandchildren.
punaise @ 116
What worries me more is what became of Adm. Poindexter
global yokel @ 90
Hard to be accused of anything when your would-be accusers are all in prison, awaiting trial on charges of war crimes and treason. I haven’t heard Duke Cunningham give any good interviews lately. I’m looking forward to Bob Ney not giving any interviews for a while either. One of my favorite periods of l’affaire du Plame was when Judy was in prison for contempt, because for once she kept her goddamn murderous lying mouth shut.
We’ve got a criminal justice system… Yes, GHWB makes money from it, but that’s no reason not to use it. Let’s lock all these fuckers up, tut-suite, and THEN let’s worry about the 100-hours agenda.
Hear that, Nancy? I want the first five hours of your speakership to be dedicated to locking up Rummy, Dick, Abu, Ken, Karl, Denny, Bob, John Yoo, Leeden, Hadley, Norquist, Foggo, Goss, Negroponte, Condi, and anyone else who immediately springs to mind. Put them in fucking solitary, no phone calls. Use their own laws against them. Charge them with terrorism, deny them habeas, and just let them cool their heels for a little while so we can sort out what we’re going to do to set the ship of state back on an even keel.
I suggest a series of trials in The Hague. Starting November 10. I can’t think of any reason to wait.
top of the page at the Daou Report:
Now that W thinks he as a brain (due to being too dumb to know that he doesn’t have one) he also thinks he can actually rule! I suspect they have no good ideas about how to get around that.
Sigh.
It’s like when Jim Morrison decided he was A Poet.
Helpless Dancer @
101
Good for her, if she has, though why she stuck it out so long the Godesses only know.
This sentence in the article: “Many of them are religious, and they aren’t going to look kindly on the charges of boozing and philandering by Bush. Not at all.” just amazes me. Always have been told that the Red States are where the people who’ve been married three times and where the Housewives programme is most popular.
Helpless Dancer @ 117
Total Information Awareness isn’t for everybody.
soyinkafan @
115
We’re big Dave Roth fans here. Any kossaks please go over and recommend soyinkafan’s diary.
punaise @ 121
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
Helpless Dancer @ 120
that’s easy. He’s thinking up more NSA wiretap dragnets. The one we know about has already been declared illegal, so he has to come up with a new one that we don’t know about.
katymine @
112
You bring up a good point, katymine — how much of the ability of the Dems to keep up with the GOP in terms of fundraising is due to the fact that much of the crooked K Street money is out of circulation? I wonder if there is any way to quantify that.
item #2 at the Daou Report:
Okay, kids. Time for TRex to go night-night.
Ned TFK sends his love.
Good night.
Thank you! Traffic to the Roth for Congress website spiked right around his Blue America live blog date. Not surprising at all. This is the megaphone that makes a difference.
Jane Hamsher @ 126
global yokel @ 90
Yes! As misguided as the Clinton impeachment was, what drove me nuts were the Repubs (being honest for a change) who said flat out that it was payback for Nixon. The self-righteous “House Managers” strutting to hearings through the halls of Congress made me want to smack their faux-serious faces. I wants me some payback, too.
But . . . we have far more important business at hand.
Dems need to turn their attention and energy to the welfare of the country and the people and the world. Happily, our very best way to shame Bush & Co. is to show them how a government can and should function.
Unless investigations produce compelling evidence that is impossible to ignore, let these rodents slink away to the luxury they have milked from their positions. I resent them for it, but America is in a world of hurt. That’s where our focus belongs.
My guess is that GW will quit! He won’t take no for an answer – ever. He won’t accept limitations on what he wants – ever. And if he gets investigated by Dems he will take his marbles and go home.
Let us not forget, though the Democrats will win in November, Mercury will be retrograde in Scorpio during the voting and tallying of the vote, just like it was when Bush stole the election from Gore. There will be lots of contested races and the whole mess will probably not get straightened out completely til November 17th, 4:25 PDT when Mercury goes direct. Plan on it.
katymine @ 112
I agree, too. Impeaching Bush is frankly secondary once he’s a lame duck and doesn’t have his rubberstamps to play with. It’s much more important to expose the whole criminal enterprise of the “conservative movement,” so they can’t just blame Bush, find their next pliable figurehead, and continue destroying the country.
rwcole @
83
YESS! He’s more useful to us alive.
buenos nachos TRex
punaise @ 136
Osmosis amoebas!
Punaise@110,
If Libby or Wolfie or any other Bushie flips, wouldn’t that just be a great day in burger history?
CatelynK @ 130
Letting them slink away means they’ll be back. Look at how many Reaganites slithered into the Bush White House under the crack in the back door. Being in prison sort of limits their political options in the future.
Investigations, done properly, put these guys out of business. If they only have College Republicans to depend upon in the future, the White House will be a long time coming and a long time gone.
Nite Trex and all …
I can’t wait to see what sort of Journal Joe cooks up for tomorrow … book’em!
We have the truth and humanity. They are mean nazi fuckers and they totally own the mass reptile brain. Who’s gonna win? It better be us, and we better damn figure out how.
Jane Hamsher @ 129
Between Howard Dean’s 50 state stratey (field candidates in every race, Democracy Bonds, ActBlue and such, Democrats are raking in the bucks.
Then you have the RNC et al dumping tons of money into once safe ReThug races (5 million on the Busby/Bilbray speical election race alone) and others. Huge amount of money being dumped here in AZ…. Renzi, Kyl and Hayworth being defended. Sure funny to see Kyl have to campaign, he does not know how, this is his first time being contested….. All the RNC ads are nasty and very negative. TeeVee Mute is your friend.
BTW…. those three races are rated “leans Rethug” ….. THEY are in play!
so hey. Not to go totally O/T but I saw this link about a court decision in NY. The upshot is, if a NY company wants to offer health insurance with a prescription drug plan, they MUST include contraceptives for women, or they’re in violation of a NY state law.
The case was brought by a number of catholic organizations, claiming that they were entitled to a religious exemption to the law. The court seems to think… not so much.
TheGris @ 139
why, yes, I will have fries with that
According to one astrologer, Bush’s astrological chart shows him raging for months and blowing a gasket when he is thwarted in ‘07, that he will continue to do what he wants anyway as if he still has the power. We shall see.
goodnight beautifuls
and let’s all dream: ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK
MelodyMaker @ 136
Seeing him frog-marched into hearings wearing an orange jumpsuit and leg-irons will do wonders to improve my morale.
Punaise@145
LOL. Made my night.
spiderpaws @ 145
Yeah, W gets his first Conyers subpoena and says, “Nope.”
Then what do we do? After that happens the thirty-seventh time, the public and the newly GOP-unfriendly corporate media will be hollering at Grandma Pelosi to put impeachment the fuck BACK on the table.
That’s what “off the table” means: Until the American people demand I put it on the table.
montag @ 140
So do old age and hopelessly tainted reputations.
But mostly, I’m saying that our present situation means we shouldn’t waste time on these proven losers. Boot them into the gutter and get on with the business of the people.
The Dems’ first priority is to prove we can govern with vision and effectiveness. Right now we might grab the majority just because we’re not the Republicans. That’s not enough to keep Congressional power and help usher in a Democrat for president.
Strip Search Sammy doesn’t much like the bloggers:
I wonder who he’s talking about????
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..00965.html
Democrats don’t have to worry about appearing weak when they are fulfilling their oath to the constitution and the rule of law (if they follow similar guidelines suggested by MNchuck). The system is most certainly broken if they fail to do so, imo. Public hearings exposing and ultimately humiliating the reining neocons and kleptocons once and for all are indeed an integral part of cleaning process.
For me the combined result of comments by Mnchuck and Jane are imperative. I hope their means to an end do not have to self defeat each other, in fact, the hearings should pave (no chainsaws needed) a clear road once and for all to campaign finance reform an so on.
When I watch Congressman Franks (as I did on Maher with delight) I believe for a few moments this task is not quite yet impossible nor will the thugs while under legal fire have near the credibility with their anger and whining.
I would like to know who are (the Goldwater Republicans) Mnchuck suggested Dems work with? I do think Cheney would wait until the very bitter last second to resign (unlike Bush). But they would certainly appoint their own (Ford) pardoning replacement.
TRex >”…Why can’t they all be this tough and smart?
Takes a lot of balls to be a fairy in this world. Barney Frank’s must be made of solid steel.”
I`m guessing that he is as he is because he is living a life where “what you see is what you get”; that is he isn`t hiding anything as many people are when they are living with their lies buried away & afraid every minute someone will find out
In other words Mr. Frank is a prime example of the phrase “the truth shall make you free“
Live your truth
“If you don’t behave as you believe, you will end by believing as you behave.” – Bishop Fulton John Sheen
There are indications that despite the desire among some to impeach Bush there will be an all consuming major event somewhere on the planet and all world leaders will be very busy dealing with that and the Senate & House will not have time for impeachment – at least not next year…jus sayin’ what they are sayin’
TeddySanFran @ 150
Excellent analysis because I agree- :)
I am not pro-impeachment at this point. Pelosi on 60min tonight said it’s a waste of time. Very clever of her to put it that way, and to also say “off the table” as you point out. It may become entirely necessary. Remember who brought it up to Nixon? (his name rhymes with whore smush) hri hraggie!
CatelynK @ 148
That will not happen so long as the Dems can’t muster veto-proof majorities. Bush will start vetoing legislation right and left if only to prove (and if only to himself) that the Dems can’t govern. He’ll do whatever he can to make the situation a mess.
To go on the offensive, therefore, the Dems have no choice but to spend their time on exposing the very people who have created the problems–and offering them up to the prosecutors, one by one. Jail is the only thing that will slow these people down. They want it all (they thought they had it all with Bush and royally screwed it up), and they aren’t going to be back in government if they go to jail.
Nuremberg took care of the Nazis. These next two years should be spent taking care of the crooks and shysters and fanatics who made a mess of the country. That’s the best the Dems can do right now.
And, lord pity anyone in the Oval Office in 2009. There are time bombs aplenty out there, set to go off after the inauguration.
Billmon, waxing eloquently:
There was someone on one of the previous threads that was posting links to casualties from that explosion in Iraq. Apparently they’d posted before and were affronted that nobody seemed to notice. It isn’t that I didn’t notice or care. There’s only one thing I can do that will be effective in stopping this shit. To be honest, I feel like I’m dodging bricks and I wonder just how many of those bricks are being thrown by people out to distract, to lower energy, to take us away from what MUST be done right now. The “why’s” are just mounting up and adding to the accountability tally. In the now, I have to stay focused and do the next thing.
T-Rex, thanks for that post. Barney Frank is a real man, unlike those pretenders.
The way I read the US chart, Bush’s chart and the Inaugural chart is that the Democrats will take the majority of the seats in the Senate or the House. Between April and July a situation comes up where Bush attempts to bomb or take some hostile action against a country or situation he sees as a danger and he can’t get anyone to follow his orders, the Senate or House defy him and his hands are tied. there is so much anger and rage in the Bush chart during those months. His dominating planet is Venus and he has Saturn sitting right on it or conjunct it. This means all the LOVE is gone!!! (Or at least very limited)
LindyH @ 156
I’ve looked at a couple of the sources, and there’s little to verify the claims, and they originate with non-news entities. Without independent verification, the claims will not be taken seriously–even if true (and anything’s possible in Iraq these days).
If the U.S. military has, indeed, hidden 300 deaths at once, as is purported, I don’t think it will remain hidden for long. Medical staff in Germany will know, embassy staff in the U.S. will know, cargo handlers at Dover AFB will know and eventually reporters will know. If they all sit on the news, it will be a miracle.
montag @ 161
Thanks. I wondered, but I was afraid to look. Guarding against despair is important.
Way to go Barney!
THUMP THUMP STAYS THE COURSE 2 …
d r i f t g l a s s posts a beautiful Tom Waits song/video
Punaise…it is 5% humidity hereabouts…dry as a freakin bone… Nose and skin hurting, practically drinking jojoba oil…you got that over where you are? Some sprinkles would be so nice…
spiderpaws @ 165
65% humidity in Berkeley right now. it has been glorious fog-free October weather lately.
spider, foggy down in santa cruz, just enough up here on the mt to rule out stargazing
Suzanne @ 167
hey Suzanne – we were staying with friends five miles north of S. Cruz this weekend – saw some strange things in the night sky. Friday night around 11:30 p.m.: two distict flashes of vertical light emanating from the ground. Saturday night around 11:15 p.m. another bright flash. did you see or hear about these?
pun, well they were searching for that gun toting guy up around the boulder creek country club, about 5 miles west of town. rumor is 2 police dogs found him.
i hear there is that “testing facility” up between bonny doon and swanton. you talking about that area?
pun, my neighbor knows about that secret test place up on top of the ridge. they do all kinda secret squirrel stuff up there and i’ll ask him about it tomorrow. bet it was something from there.
Also meteor showers this weekend…how can the humidity be so different just a stones throw from here?
Suzanne @ 169
I’ve heard about that place. that doesn’t jibe in this case – our line of sight was from the coast, looking south/south-east towards Santa Cruz. could it be something at the Boardwalk?
hadn’t heard about the country club fella.
Sure could be, pun. The boardwalk has all kinda stuff going on still. The big fireworks was a weekend or two ago down near Aptos (I think).
Spider, I am in a temperate rain forrest here. Lots of damp most of the time. Redwoods can take the equivalent of 4″ of rain out of fog in a single night.
oh pun, it was all over the news for 2 days. on the golf course, a guy with a gun who shot at another guy (and missed). he ran into a creek area and the manhunt was on.
i don’t know if it golf related or not.
spiderpaws @ 171
is it normal for Orion’s (?) right shoulder to blink quite noticeably?
spiderpaws @ 171
toobz say it’s 94% in SF and Berkeley. where you?
Aha. It was a Boulder Creek redneck up at the Country Club.
signing off, good night
*plouf*
http://www.democraticundergrou…..364×2
457675==IWO JIMA STRIKE GROUP JOINS U.S. NAVAL BUILDUP OPPOSITE IRAN (2 reports)
October 20, 2006, 12:37 PM (GMT 02:00)
Tuesday, Oct. 17, the Iwo Jima Expeditionary Strike Group steamed into the Persian Gulf to join the US naval, air and marine concentration piling up opposite Iran’s shores. It consists of the amphibious transport dock USS Nashville, the guided-missile destroyers USS Cole and USS Bulkeley, the guided-missile cruiser USS Philippine Sea, the attack submarine USS Albuquerque, and the dock landing ship USS Whidbey Island.
The Iwo Jima group is now cruising 60 km from Kuwait off Iran’s coast. As DEBKAfile and DEBKA-Net-Weekly reported exclusively two weeks ago, three US naval task forces will be in place opposite Iran in the Persian Gulf and Arabian Sea by October 21. The other two are the USS Eisenhower Carrier Strike Group and the USS Enterprise Strike Group.
MORE (PHOTO)
http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=3401
———————————————-
Israel must prepare for Iran to push the button – chief of staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz Friday
October 21, 2006, 8:12 PM (GMT 02:00)
Iranian president said earlier there is no reason for Israel “the greatest insult to human dignity” to exist and it would soon disappear.
Halutz also warned Israel to prepare for possible war with Syria, whose missile threat to Israel’s population is similar to that of Hizballah.
Another of his outrageous speeches was delivered Friday to a pro-Palestinian rally marking the Islami Republic’s “al Qods Day” (Jerusalem Liberation Day). In further inflammatory remarks, Ahmadinejad said “the world knows the US and Britain are enemies of the Iranian nation.” He warned European nations not to harm Iran, saying that if anger in the region boiled over, Europe would get hurt because of its support for Israel. “Europe must distance itself from Israel at once. That is Iran’s ultimatum. “He went on to brand the UN Security Council and its decisions “illegitimate.”
DEBKAfile adds: These words amounted to an Iranian threat of harm to the European UN forces deployed in Lebanon unless they left forthwith.His harsh words followed two events: one, the Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert’s statement in Moscow this week after he met with Russian leaders: “They need to fear that something that they do not want to happen will happen. In no case, Olmert stressed, “will we reconcile with nuclear arms in Iranian hands. There is no margin for error here.”
THE OTHER EVENT WAS THE ARRIVAL IN THE PERSIAN GULF OF THE GIANT US CARRIER IWO JIMA WITH ITS EXPEDITIONARY STRIKE GROUP TO JOIN THE AMERICAN NAVAL, AIR AND MARINE MIGHT PILING UP OPPOSITE IRAN’S SHORES.
MORE (PHOTO)
http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=3400 ===Iwo Jima Expeditionary Strike Group joins US build-up opposite Iran
=Bush Administration Plans for a US War vs. Iran
Urgent Letter from Dennis Kucinichhttp://www.kucinich.us/
Kucinich Holds Hearing on War Plans for Iran
Sam Gardiner and David Kay Testify
I know Punaise is gone but it just absolutely could not be 94% humidity in Berkeley…off to watch the stars..Sun and Mars change into Scorpio today and the Saturn/Jupiter square is exact…the velvet gloves come off…
http://www.libertyforum.org/sh…..=1&t=0
Those casualty figures of thousands for an ammo dump fireworks show are crazy stupid. But when the retreat out of Baghdad begins then Bush is meeting today with his military commanders … this disaster is likely the focus and reason for this meeting and Bush is probably chewing some ass about now … but its too late … the horse has already escaped the barn. If the Generals are smart, they will band together and charge Bush with treason rather than to take the fall for him. numbers like that will probably be low end.
Figure that for the 140,000 troops in Iraq only 10,000 to 15,000 thousand of them go outside the wire to fight the rest are REMF’s, which means when the retreat out of Iraq begins the insurgents will have what amounts to a herd of three legged Wildebeasts to prey upon.
Think of all those Private Susies in the ANG captured like dirty, jammed M-16 Jessica Lynch paraded around as captured war trophies. That is why James Baker is in Iraq to negotiate a retreat out of the country, he will fail of course, and this will make the Bataan Death March look like a stroll.
Another Disastrous Coverup Forward Base Falcon Disaster
What I meant is that there have been no reports of MIA’s or POW’s for the duration of the current Iraq and Afghanistan Wars. That seems incredible to me. My mistake for not being clear about the point I was trying to make.
http://www.bringemhome.org/
whatreallyhappened.com/
here’s the link posted by WRH
http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2547.htm#001
http://piglipstick.blogspot.com/
http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m2737…..=1&l=t
Coverup Continues About Baghdad Ammo Dump Disaster
Seems to support the story in terms of far more casualties than admitted.
http://www.kavkazcenter.com/en…../5939.shtm
Randi Rhodes talked about an Iran strike on the 23rd of October…anyone hear that?
spiderpaws @ 180
Umm, doubt it. After all, in the Persian Gulf, it’s noon of the 23rd. Heard anything? Not I.
No, they’ll be building this up, maybe first as a blockade, just to see if they can spook the Iranians into doing something provocative, so they can act without Congress’ approval (they are in recess, which makes it easy to do in that fashion). Stretch out the suspense through Nov. 7th.
Good morning all from Boston(-ish). It is 50, but with light rain already falling. Ahhh, the bed is so warm….
How is every little thing with y’all?
They call them Fobbies, not REMF’s
aq @
182
immanentize @ 182
Colder here than where you are… but, then, if we were at sea level and near an ocean, we’d probably be at 50, too. :)
montag:
A vast ocean with the Gulf Stream nearby had advantages!
immanentize @ 185
Until the North Atlantic conveyor belt ceases operation…. *sigh*
Morning everyone, drive by.
I hope you all saw Jane’s post about Joe’s $387,000 petty cash fund. According to Joe’s campaign, $210,000, was spent on “volunteers” in the two weeks before the primary vote. No word as to what happened to the other $177,000 or when it was disbursed. Lot of good work from Valley Girl, Stephen Parrish, CPA, and others about all the Federal laws Joe broke.
I love Barney Frank,makes me want to move to Mass just so I can vote for him.
What breaks my heart is all the gay and lesbian teens who live a life of sadness and fear,or get bullied relentlessly or abandoned by family if they come out. I’ll never ever understand how a parent can put their fears and ridiculous religious pomposity before their own child. I can’t think of anything my kids could ever do to make me abandon them entirely. Even if my kid killed someone,I’d have a tough time writing them off.
These mean,prejudiced, backwardass beliefs destroy families,what the hell is christian about that?
My son is 12,the only boy at school with really long hair. He refuses to get it cut,but we’ve had to deal with him being teased for being “a total fag”more than once. In this case,being an Asperger’s child works to his advantage because the teasing doesn’t get to him that much. I can only imagine how awful it can be for some teens to be afraid of school everyday and having to run that kind of gauntlet. It makes me want to adopt all of them and love the daylights out of’em.
When you have kids you make a deal,you don’t just get to give up because the kid turns out not to be your idea of perfect. That’s just so wrong on so many levels I don’t know where to begin. It makes me all weepy too,who could DO that?
That Club for Growth guy on Bill’s show is an idiot. Anyone who hangs with the likes of Grover Norquist has alot of nerve showing their face in public.
montag –
Yeah, I didn’t want to mention that.
So much for England!
Good morning, folks. Just my luck to miss out the early conversations about such near-and-dear topics such as ocean circulation patterns, especially with the Gulf Stream only three miles from my office window! *g*
Good Morning, imm, fgd, montag, et al.,
It’s still in the 40s here in central NJ. NY Times was a mixed bag this morning: great Krugman column [behind the Select firewall], and a somewhat fawning piece about Baby Kean running for NJ-Senate.
Here’s some of Krugman, whose advise to Dems is “Don’t make nice with the Republicans”:
“As long as polarization is integral to the G.O.P.’s strategy, Democrats can’t do much, if anything, to narrow the partisan divide.
“Even if they try to act in a bipartisan fashion, their opponents will find a way to divide the nation — which is what happened to the great surge of national unity after 9/11. One thing we might learn from investigations is the extent to which the Iraq war itself was motivated by the desire to have another wedge issue.
“There are those who believe that the partisan gap can be bridged if the Democrats nominate an attractive presidential candidate who speaks in uplifting generalities. But they must have been living under a rock these past 15 or so years. Whoever the Democrats nominate will feel the full force of the Republican slime machine. And it doesn’t matter if conservatives have nice things to say about a Democrat now. Once the campaign gets serious, they’ll suddenly question his or her patriotism and discover previously unmentioned but grievous character flaws.
“The truth is that we won’t get a return to bipartisanship until or unless the G.O.P. decides that polarization doesn’t work as a political strategy. The last great era of bipartisanship began after the 1948 election, when Republicans, shocked by Harry Truman’s victory, decided to stop trying to undo the New Deal. And that example suggests that the best thing the Democrats can do, not just for their party and their country, but for the cause of bipartisanship, is what Truman did: stand up strongly for their principles.”
Hey there, njp. I’d hazard to say, though, that the GOP didn’t stop trying to do this, just postponed their efforts by fifty years or so — Grover Norquist and his ilk are still wandering the halls of Congress, unfortunately. If it wasn’t for their naked need for seniors’ votes, the Repubs would’ve killed off Social Security years ago.
Mornin’.
Here it’s cloudy, hazy, a little sluggish…(?)
Oh wait, that’s me in search of coffee. brb
Quote of the Day:
egregious, do you have your stuffed bunny [or is it a stuffed teddy]?
I’ve got a few more chores to finish then it’s off to the office. At lunchtime, I’ll be calling the campaigns of five Democratic NJ Congressmen, asking them to give 30% of their campaign cash [not needed in their own races–no Republican candidate or only a token candidate] to other Dem challengers or to the party committees. Go check out the list over at MyDD, to see who you can call.
Mr. NJP and I will be doing some volunteering for Linda Stender in NJ-07 [not our district, but close by, so it’s easy]. We haven’t decided whether we’ll phone bank or do door-to-door or something else. Tonight, I’ll stop at the store for goodies to bring with us for the other volunteers.
Morning anjinsan
Is Old Sow around? I haven’t seen her around the ‘Lake the past few mornings.
Pat Lang has info from Richard Sales on the situation in Iraq and Iran wrt the White House.
Long, but interesting.
Good morning gang!
Hi NJ and all. Thanks for asking. Life has been so demanding lately, and some of us get the October Blues a little. Also, many folks have been more than a little testy and over the edge here lately, imo, not that the zeitgeist isn’t enough to bum out even the most stalwart of us. And even if I don’t jump into the fray myself, some days even reading here gets some on me: this I don’t need and doesn’t help. Still, I’m holding with you, working towards peace & justice in my own actions, and sending good healing love energy to Esten and the rest of us in these difficult times.
tommy yum @ 201
Hi Tommy!
I have been sending many many good thoughts to you, your son, your daughter, and your wife daily.
I hope all is at least stable….
Oh Hi, Tommy, nice to see you, and I was happy to read your good news yesterday. Love to you all.
I feel it, imm. My profound thanks.
We are approaching normalcy. It’s a marathon, not a sprint, but one we can win. Esten’s home and bossing me around. His appetite’s up, he’s keeping stuff down, is regular, and good at taking his meds. All blood/marrow labs are wonderfully encouraging.
‘morning, Tommy – you’ve been missed!
want some coffee?
Tommy,
That is such good news (in the realm of difficult to bad things happening). I was thinking just this past weekend how our children are siimply so much more resilient than we are. The recovery is so fast in part because they simply perceive what is happening as what life ought to be. They just roll along and as long as they are feeling fairly well, they are simply setting about the task of loving their lives.
Adults like me, however, become sick with worry.
Maybe it’s the trust thing? Esten so trusts you that he can’t imagine anything but good things stretching out forever.
Train to catch — later!
Yes please, OC! Morning, OS!
tommy yum @ 208
hold out your cup – it’s strong and hot this morning…
Esten’s bossing you around? that’s always a good sign…
Hey tommy,
Been thinking about you. The CarePage is an interesting idea, a way for people to stay involved without pestering the family.
It must be a living nightmare for you, we are here for encouragement whenever you need. Pretty much around the clock at fdl :)
John Casper @ 190
John, if you’re still around, I would love for you to tell me what public office I can go to to find out how you voted in the last election. Last I checked, who a person votes for is private, and the only records you could see would tell you whether a person voted.
Your logic that no one – not one single person – would have blabbed to the media about being given cash to vote for Joe because they didn’t want to kill the cash cow is just not credible. If the word was out on the street that Joe was buying votes, not only would someone not in Joe’s camp take cash so he or she could report it, but the hordes of media working the campaign trail would have picked up something.
And for the last time, one can “volunteer” for just about anything and still receive some form of payment from the person or organization for which he or she volunteered. You’re getting hung up on semantics, which in my opinion, is a mistake.
I do not know whether Joe violated any laws, and I would sure like to know, but I think it’s silly to get breathlessly carried away on a tide of speculation, especially when that speculation defies logic; the facts – if they are allowed to come out – will tell us all what happened, and we can only hope it will be before the voters go to the polls on November 7, so that people can cast their votes with real information in hand.
Re Esten being bossy, oh yes that’s a very good sign. We are always glad at the hospital when the babies are strong enough to cry or be restless.
He also clearly feels that you are totally there for him! Which of course you are, a complete rock.
I agree with the sentiment and appreciate this post very much–even if I don’t take joy in watching these outings unfold. Barney Frank was very well-spoken in that discussion. But one thing he made clear was his reluctance at first to discuss outing at all. It was a momentary hedge, but it was very, very important.
The lesson I took from Frank’s words was that he was definitely not enjoying this latest wave of outings–that he was not relishing the idea of political destruction based on shining media attention on people’s sexual identity. What he seemed to want was a return to politics where sexual identity did not need to be discussed, where people could live lives where their sexuality was nobody’s business because hypocrisy had been uprooted. I felt like Frank wanted us to remember what had been learned by the outing campaigns of the 1980s: outing may be a necessity, right now, but not something to be enjoyed–and not itself a political victory.
It’s a difficult tightrope to tread, and I gained even more respect for Frank as he reminded us all to watch our step.
njprogressive @ 198
Bunny! His name is Paul, he is very soft and huggy. I wrapped him in the Mc tartan of my ancestors to keep him warm. In the past I had real bunnies, but it’s hard to take care of them with so much travel.
Good luck with the calling for cash idea and your many other get out the vote actions!
Re: Trex’s grand plan to out gay Republicans (or mere suspects): Can anyone please explain to me why this would not be a giant step backwards in the battle for gay rights? How do you demonize gay Republicans only without it blowing back on gay Democrats? Doesn’t such a campaign legitimize gay bashing to your target audience (equals those people for whom such a tactic would be effective)? Wouldn’t it make it that much harder for GLBT of any political persuasion to hold elected office? Maybe we should think this through a bit more.
Frank in 2008 – how terrific would it be to have a guy with balls of steel and that smart too for President?
Krugman has it right a nocomprimse stance if we win is the only way to get a comprimise. The Gop would rather fold a few hands and wait rather than follow up a losing hand with a big bet. They would prefer to stay in the game long term. Which means that after the election we must push so hard that they will not comprimise we must PISS THEM OFF. I want them to bet BIG in ANGER right after the november election. If we force them even more right right after the election when we are strongest they will alienate even more people. Fighting for Pelosi’s agenda will accomplish this if we make a point of making the GOP angry. If we comprimise on Pelosi’s agenda it will get passed easily and be too weak to help the country. Plus it would demoralize OUR BASE! We need more people to be alienated from the GOP. The best way to piss off the GOP is to take down the GOP house leadership in the Paige scandal and EVERY GOP MEMBER OF THE PAIGE OVERSITE BOARD. My guess is the GOP hope only Dennis and maybe two house leaders go down taking out ALL THE REPRESENTIVES on the paige board will piss them off. Especially if some of the GOP representives terms are filled by DEM Goveners with DEMs!
TREX: This was absolutely one of the best Bill Maher shows yet. I got to see it last night and Stephen Moore was totally exposed and Barney Frank came through as a man of reason. Even though Bill Maher always gets a liberal audience, I have never seen it where they actually were booing every time the token Republican in the room spoke. It was a thing of beauty! I wish Barney Frank would move into Foley’s place in our state.
I take his bossiness as a good sign, as well as a by-product of the steroids. Just keeping an eye out for potential bacterial infections, and keeping the meds coming.
As far as nightmares go, yes it sucks, but as a Buddhist I accept suffering. Also, I was on the children’s cancer ward for nine days, and believe me, we got the “good kind.” It could be so much worse. Lastly, “why me?” thinking is just another form of self-absorption. This is not about me; it’s about my son, and he will prevail.
Tommy, good to see you back, and I’m so glad to hear you so hopeful.
I think that gay marriage could quickly become a reality if tactics changed. Gay people should begin a loud campaign of thanking Republicans for protecting them from divorce.
tommy – so happy things are looking up for all of you; there’s nothing like being home and getting back to normal routines to lower the stress level.
imm is so right about how kids just expect to bounce back – we parents sometimes have to have faith that it’s okay to let them, even as we have that nugget of fear that lingers. One of the hardest jobs a parent has is to shield that nugget from our kids, so that it’s our worry, not theirs.
Almost 6 years ago, my younger daughter severely sprained her ankle in cheerleading tryouts, and we took her to the ER to make sure it wasn’t broken. The x-rays revealed a “cyst” in her heel that we were advised to check out. One of those, “it’s probably nothing, but you should make sure” kind of things.
As it turned out, the cyst was so extensive that parts of her heel were almost paper thin, and between the cheerleading and her getting on and off her horse in competition, it was probably a miracle that she had not shattered it.
We didn’t know for sure until after the surgery – which required a significant bone graft – and the biopsy, that the cyst itself was totally benign, but there was that nugget of fear we had to hide from her, all the while presenting an “of course it will all be fine” attitude (which, honestly, was in part us talking ourselves into that being the truth).
I think about you often, try to send waves of strength and healing your way, and continue to believe that Esten – and the rest of your family – will come through this just fine.
good morning all,
Tommy Yum – all your news on Esten sound so good – we continue to pray for good health and continued strength and hope for y’all –
doubt you’ve had the time to go through threads, but you should know so many here are doing the same
op99 I disagree Gay GOPers who are ok with a party that won’t even let them marry are hippocrites. Much like the priests and Pharrises of Jesus’s time they need to be called out. After all if a man can’t watch out for his own self interest (assuming nobody gets hurt) how could you trust them to watch out for your interests? Without interests/desire as a balence to principles/laws/rules the interpretation of laws etc is formed and colored by WHAT? The desire for power by itself! Trex should get these guys away from government as soon as possible they remind/scare me like bush/rove do!
Mornin’ Firepups,
Been away from the Lake all weekend cause I have been workin’ on election protection stuff.
Tommy, how terrific to check in just in time for your good news. I think about your family quite a bit. You are really setting an example for all of us about how to handle adversity.
Thank You.
Re: Outing gay republicans.
I agree with Barney Franks. It’s not whether or not you are gay that should be exposed; it’s wheter or not you are a hypocrit that should be exposed.
That is a glaring distinction
Tommy – if you’re still here
a buddhist huh ? that would explain why this runs through my head whenever we pray for ya -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m2Usws5CPI
*g*
awright… gotta get up and at it! everybody have a real good day…
mOropeza at 224, I agree with the ends, but not the means. To me, such a campaign would smack of: “It’s bad to be gay, so run these guys out of office on a rail.” How do you restrict that to Republicans? Even if it’s exquisitely crafted to be an anti-hypocrisy campaign, by the time the media got through with it, it would end up being a GLBT witch hunt.
lhp –
would love to hear your thoughts on the Lynn Stewart sentence (yes, I’m waaay behind on my threads)
personally, I was relieved at the sentence and her glass is half full response
The Iran-Contra bad boys didn’t pay for their crimes and lived to fight another day.
cbl @ 227
My sweet George!
I can’t claim Buddhism as religion (it’s not), and I’m too monkey-brained to meditate, so I should qualify myself here. I do think it’s the most useful approach to living and dealing with suffering.
Also, although it sounds like I’m lording it over everybody (”Look at me! I’m a Buddhist!”) I actually use it like a vitamin shot, ‘cos believe me this has been occasionally overwhelming. It guess it’s another way of saying “I’m weak” or “I’m afraid” but am at least not paralyzed.
I have to say that this constant harping on outing closeted gays is beginning to wear on me, and I think the whole hypocrisy excuse is thin, at best.
All of us have secrets that we keep about ourselves, and our families, and many of those secrets shaped us and changed us and affect our relationships and the paths we take. Is a person who is gay and chooses to keep that fact to him- or herself – more or less of a hypocrite than the person who grew up in family where alcoholism was a secret to be hidden from the world? Is that person more or less of a hypocrite than the person with an eating disorder or whose parent had a drug problem, or whose family had to get food stamps or the person who suffered sexual abuse or was a victim of an abusive parent?
Who we are isn’t just about what our orientation is; when and if the day comes when orientation is of no consequence to anyone, there will still be things that happen to people and that people experience that will affect who they are, because we are all products of our upbringing and environment and circumstance.
You can call bullshit on an agenda that continues to demonize gay people, just as you can call bullshit on an agenda that punishes poor people, or closes doors of opportunity instead of opening them. And you can do it because those agendas are wrong, and you can do it without ever having to raise orientation or ethnicity or gender or appearance.
Stop trying to get at the problem by becoming the thing you are fighting against.
Anne @ 233
That’s a very good question, and why we should pay extra attention to what Barney Frank says. He specifically says that hypocrisy is not being gay and not telling anyone. That is not the basis for outing anyone, according to Frank. Hypocrisy is being a closet gay who pushes legislation criminalizing outed gays–as he says, pushing laws against a form of a behavior, then turning around and practicing that exact same behavior in the privacy your own home.
So you miss an essential point if you conclude that these outing campaigns are just about bringing one’s identity to light. Take your alcoholism example, if a person hid the fact that their parents were alcoholic, but then passed laws that forbid people with alcoholic parents from joining the military or getting married–that would be the analagous situation.
I’m grateful to TRex for bringin up this subject, but it is still really important to go back and listen carefully to what Frank is saying.
NOT !
vitamin shot . . .my ‘binky’ – “right now I am doing exactly what God wants me to do”
and hope to goodness you’ve seen the viral sweep of Had Enough, you personally have pissed off Peter King
bwaahaaahaaa!
http://www.kingwatch.blogspot.com/
the thing i always want to say to the haters of teh gay:
if you don’t want teh gay going out and doing teh gay things, then being married will keep teh gay out of the bars and make teh gay stay home
doh!
and another thing re outing:
jews who join the nazis = blacks who join the kkk = gays who are republicans
thank you
op99 I agree the GOP is already trying to blame secret gays in the GOP for pedophile Foley the firestorm you are worried about is already happening. Maybe some discrete blackmail to get the GOP gays to stop opposing gay issues would be best. However the difference between pedophiles straight or gay and normal straight and gay people should be a talking point for every DEM on every TV show. If the DEMs really want to help gays that is. Also blackmail troubles me but does anyone else got an alternative seriously I will listen!
new thread – It’s monday morning, and time for work: Do More
stewart colbert @
237
Nah. This is absolutely not what Barney Frank was saying.
The problem here is gay legislators who advocate descrimination against gays while hiding their own homosexuality. So, that would be like a Jewish German who joined the Nazi party, but secretly led Yom Kippur services in his hometown. Or a black person who insisted that he was white and joined the KKK–neither of which every happened. Jews who joined the Nazi party believed that they were no longer Jews. Blacks don’t join the KKK, period. Frank was very clear in saying that it was not a problem by itself to be gay and be a Republican. The problem was being gay, Republican, pushing anti-gay social legislation, and then violating that very social legislation in private.
mOropeza @ 238
I think this could be a golden opportunity to be attacking the whole idea that gay is bad and should be stamped out. (”See, even all these influential Republicans are gay, so it must be OK.”) Attack the prejudice, not the people.
op99 so we expose the gay GOPers but we do it your way this will only work if we give EVERY DEM talking points to respond to the firestorm of Gays are evil the GOP will unleash as a smokescreen to deflect Foley and shore up their base. I like it!
mOropeza @ 242
Except let the Goopers expose their own, it’s happening. We’re above that. ;)
I understand why people are having trouble understanding why a gay person would work to advance an agenda that discriminates or criminalizes or demonizes those who are also gay – I don’t get it either. But I think revealing someone’s orientation as part of a progressive agenda is just wrong. Better to work for what is right, and let those who have demons to wrestle do so on their own time. Make the party they advocate for and the ideas they advocate for irrelevant and fight for the policies and laws that are right and fair.
When you start outing people in the name of the greater good, I think you run the risk of alienating those you believe share your progressive ideals, but who fear having those tactics turned on them.
If we want better, we have to be better.
Anne @
245
But if we want better, we also have to be willing to take power away from people who are using it to harm others. If a teacher sexually abuses a student, we step in to strip the teacher of his job–taking away his power to harm others. If a police officer consistently shoots and kills black men, we step in to strip the officer of his job–taking away his power to harm others. And if a gay legislator passes laws criminalizing gays, we step in and force that person into the same category they are crimanizing–taking away his power to harm others. It’s the same thing.
Only if we see outing as a an end in and of itself, do we remain blind from the larger goal of protecting people from harm. We are no longer in a hypothetical situation where a person may be harmed or may not be harmed by anti-gay legislation. These legislators are pushing laws that harm others directly and will continue to do so until that power is taken away from them. And so it is our responsibility to step in and protect others–by voting, by passing laws, and when necessary: by outing legislators involved.
Outing is a means of stripping people of the power they are actively using to harm others. Although once stripped of that power, we should also retain the piece of mind to not seek vengeance. That’s the tricky part.
Jeffrey Feldman at 246: “That’s the tricky part.”
I fear that’s the impossible part.
Anne at 245: Amen.
op99 I agree but we need talking points and we need the DEMS to listen this needs to be organized every GOPers who tries to spin hate needs to get CORRECTED about the difference between pedohiles and gays. Then we hit them with Dennis protecting child molesters and how pathetic it is for the GOP to demonize gays to deflect attention from THEIR TURNING A BLIND EYE TO A CHILDMOLESTER! Sorry but I gotta smite somebody! and they deserve it!
I am a Democrat disgusted by Democrats trading on homophobia and treating their GLBTQQ constituency badly. The Foley thing, outing gay staffers, and now Democrat Patty W. in MN is using the Foley thing in her campaign ads…which generally has the effect of saying, since my son Jason was abducted, I’ll hold all feet to the fire on Foley because we all know gays are child molesters and abductors!
Nobody has the right to out anyone else. Period.
Neither do I want fishing expeditions for impeachment purposes. To hell with that.
So, I’m voting R for Congress/Senate this fall. The D’s need to be bitchslapped until they have some ideas and communicate them, not just Bush hatred. The bad treatment of gays is the clincher. I never dreamed I’d see D’s abusing GLBTQQs like this.
I’m voting D for state offices this fall to try and get the votes to oppose a pre-filed bill defeated that will prohibit public institutions of higher education from offering benefits to domestic partners. (This bill was filed by a Democrat!) The colleges and universities have already conducted votes and the faculty and staff support DP bennies (which include same and opposite sex DPs)…but this legislator thinks that it should be overruled. (No one is forcing any private companies to provide DP bennies, it’s a voluntary move by the colleges/universities.)
STOP THE DEMOCRAT OPPRESSION OF GLBTQQ!
Outing is a means of stripping people of the power they are actively using to harm others. Although once stripped of that power, we should also retain the piece of mind to not seek vengeance. That’s the tricky part.
All they have to do is come to gay pride, put on a rainbow lei, and sing “I will survive”, and all is forgiven, we are hardly seeking “vengeance”.
If you are gay and can’t do your job without hiding who you are, get another job. You are a danger to yourself, other gay americans, and ultimately to the cause you serve by operating from the closet.
op99 @
247
That’s not true. The outing campaigns of the 1980s, while they caused some public shame of powerful public figures, had a direct impact on breaking the icejam in public funding and awareness of AIDS research–in turn stopping people from dying. If these anti-gay measures are not stopped by taking on the people with the power to stop them–more people will die.
That we worry about our attitude as it unfolds is an important testimony to the moral basis of the Progressive movement–but we should not let our concern derail us from the moral imperative to stop people from harming others. There will be plenty of time down the road to empathize with executioner, but first we need to take the axe out of his hand.
Jeffrey Feldman @ 246
Jeffrey, you strip the teacher of his job because sexual abuse of a student is a crime; being gay is not a crime. If a gay legislator is working to pass laws that discriminate against people on the basis of their orientation, or laws that criminalize the sexual activity between persons of the same sex, you work to defeat the legislation, and you work to defeat the legislator – you do not work to expose the legislator for his sexual orientation, because in doing so, you are working at cross purposes: you cannot advance an agenda that says there is nothing wrong with being gay, and then use tactics that add “unless” to the whole equation. A closeted gay person is not using his or her orientation to personal advantage in working against his or her interests, so why should you have the right to use that information to your advantage?
You defeat the legislators because the laws are wrong and the agenda is wrong. Period. There is no such thing as outing someone for his or her own good, or because you think it serves the greater good. Whose minds are going to be changed by revealing that a legislator is gay? The people who hate gays will just have one more person to hate, those for whom sexual orientation is of no consequence are already on your side, and there’s at least a likelihood that the person outed uses the outing against you as proof that you couldn’t be nearly as tolerant as you claim to be if you are willing to make the gay person your particular brand of demon.
The outing is itself an act of vengeance against the person not seeing things your way, and for not doing things the way you think they should.
Work against bad laws and bad policies by electing people with the right ideas. Outing is just as much a tool of fear as bad law and bad policy.
Outing is not vengeance, it is visibility. There isn’t anything wrong with being gay. By protecting the closet, you are implying that there is something wrong, something that needs to be hidden.
Should we protect a straight person and not reveal he and his wife are “swingers”? For some that revelation would matter, as the think it is aberrant sexual behavior, and might change their vote. For others, they vote regardless of the private lives of the individuals. But do we have a special need to protect their privacy no matter how many times we see them at Plato’s Retreat?
Barney Frank (pic taken a few years back at the premiere of The Cockettes here in L.A.) is one of the very last useful politicians left.
The closet is crumbling into dust.
Unfortunately the “mainstream” isn’t up to speed on this fact and tuhs plays all sorts of stupid games with Republican staffers and creeps like Foley.
They still won’t mention that Ken Mehlman and David Drier are gay — or that Grover Norquist is a closet queen in a fake marriage.
Hell they won’t even deal with the fact that Drudge is gay.
Gay Republicans are Nazis?
German Jews dreamt of such gentle persecution.
Anne @
252
As you’ve erroneously misread and misdefined ‘outing’–absolutely, I’d agree with you. But if you actually go back and listen to what Barney Frank said, then you will see that you are not correct. You seem to be arguing against mass purge style outings of all Ameriricans–some kind of hypothetical movement like the cultural revolution in China. Yeah, of course ‘outing’ in this general sense is immoral. But that’s not what’s happening, here.
The advocates for the outing of hypocrite legislators are gay activists, and in this case an openly gay Congressman. So the idea that outing these legislators hurts gay rights just makes no sense at all–unless we want to stand up and say that Barney Frank and gay activists are “threats” to gay rights–which from where I sit, makes no sense. It may hurt these legislators’ feelings in the short run, but that is a small price to pay to protect our Democracy and equal rights in general.
The outing we are discussing here is not of “gay people” in general–it is of specific hypocrite legislators. There are no mass outing purges underway. None.
These outings we are talking about do not say it is wrong to be gay, but that it is wrong as a legislator to behave a certain way in private and then use one’s power to criminalize that same behavior–for political gain. That’s the argument–not a single person said it was wrong to be gay. And if Fred Phelps siezes upon this situation to fulminate more nonsense about homosexuality–so what? We’re not going to sit down and never say another word about homosexuality again because some radical conservative might use it as an opportunity to talk trash.
In this situation, we have a real problem–the type of problem that causes people to die. Legislators are passing laws that they then actively break in secret. That turns our democratic system into a not-Democratic system, into tyranny: a system where the government no longer enacts laws that protect the people, but is a mechanism for controlling and harming the people. Even worse, these same legislators are using the threat of passing these laws to whip up hatred against other Americans. To stop all this, we focus attention on the legislators. Direct action focused on those doing the harm.
But nobody–nobody–is advocating going into highschool gym classes and outing people as some some kind of massive cultural purge. We are instead supporting the choice by activists to out specific, individual legislators in our government responsible for these politics and policies.
kristinejoy at 254 said:
I don’t see how me impinging on the privacy rights of the “outee” is any different from a pro-life Xian thinking they have the right to decide on my behalf whether I may have an abortion or not, or take contraceptives or not.
Jeffrey Feldman @ 257
If you “out specific, individual legislators in our government,” what stops that from devolving into political tit-for-tat, and from legitimizing “going into highschool gym classes and outing people as some some kind of massive cultural purge?”
Why do you want to protect the closet, OP99?
Clearly you think there’s something shameful, disgusting and wrong about being gay.
kristinejoy @ 253
You say that as someone who is out, right? Who came out voluntarily – no one wrote an article in the paper about your sexuality “for your own good,” did they? I am not protecting the closet, Kristine, I am protecting each person’s right to decide when and where to make that kind of information public. And by putting people in fear of being outed against their will, you are not making them freer to be out, you are driving them deeper into the closet. How come I, as a straight person, can see this, and you cannot?
You’re right that there isn’t anything wrong with being gay, but there is something wrong with using someone’s orientation as a weapon against them because you disagree with the policies and laws they advocate for. Why can’t bad law and bad policy stand on their own as something to be changed? How does drawing a line from a closeted gay person to a bad law do anything to change the policies and laws? Oh, you get to hang the big “H” for hypocrite around their necks, but, guess what? You can’t swing a dead cat in Congress without hitting a hypocrite.
Identifying someone as a hypocrite does what, exactly, to change the laws? And does it really help you change the legislatures? Tom DeLay and Duke Cunningham aren’t out of office because they were guilty of being hypocrites – they and others would still be sitting in Congress being textbook examples of hypocrisy, and advocating for some of the worst legislation around were it not for the fact that they finally broke one too many laws.
Why do you think it’s anyone’s business what the straight couple are up to in the bedroom? Haven’t we been working for years and years to keep the government – and anyone else who thinks they have the right to know – out of our bedrooms and living rooms?
Work to replace those you find counter-productive to the things you believe are right and support the greater good; do not kid yourself that outing people helps you attain that goal.
Anne says:
Bullshit! You’re protecting the closet.
I serously want you to think deeply about this becuase you obviously think there’s something wrong with being gay.
Maybe you did not notice, but Oregon and a lot of other Democrat states voted in referendum to pass anti-gay marriage amendments by overwhelming margins. So tell me how Democrats are any better? They are the SAME.
What have Democrats ever done for gays and lesbians? NOTHING!
They talk the talk but in the end they do nothing, so why should any gays vote for Democrats? Or believe you people on anything? The Democratic party just wants to use gays and lesbians to get votes, that’s all. You can’t fool all of us all the time.
David Ehrenstein @ 259
If I were gay, I’m pretty sure I would be out and militant. But that would be MY decision to make, wouldn’t it? How dare you presume to make my decision for me? As long as there are personal consequences to be paid for being out (Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, for one example), why shouldn’t each individual be allowed his/her own calculus?
I see that as a gay person, I’m expected to stay on your plantation, shuckin’ an’ jivin’ and’ votin’ fer Democrats. Apparently, I am permitted to think independently only as long as I agree with you.
You people are pitiable. Also, fascists. If there are gays with any pride in this crowd, I’d suggest you reconsider your alliegance. These folks may call themselves progressive, but a true progessive would have a much higher vison for human potential than that offered by crass identity politics. They would also be much kinder.
I think for myself and I suggest you start doing so, too. Come out of the closet and start thinking for yourselves.
David Ehrenstein, why are people in the closet to begin with? Because they have decided for themselves that the benefits of being out do not outweigh the costs. And maybe they are wrong in their calculation, but it should be their choice to make, not yours. One does not have to “think there’s something wrong with being gay” to respect people’s right to decide their own life choices.
They haven’t “decided for themselves” at all. They’ve let the culture do the deciding for them.
Clearly you have’t that faintest idea of what it means to be gay. But you have a very clear idea of what sex is about in this culture, because you feel people like me are martians.
I’m 59 years old and I’ve been out and proud since high school (Communist Martyrs High, class of ‘64)
If you’re going to be a public personality (which is what politicians are) there is NO EXCUSE for being in the closet.
As for everyone else, there’s precious little excuse either.
PERIOD!
We all know how the “Republicans=Nazis” analogy wins the hearts and minds of independent voters.
One day, maybe even this decade, you’ll figure out that the base of either side is not enough to win elections. It takes 50% 1, which neither base has.
Keep it up and the Republicans will hold Congress for the next generation. I weep for the expressions on November 8th, when the Democrats thought they had it in the bag, only to find they screwed it up again, mostly thanks to demonization like this.
David Ehrenstein @ 261
Bullshit! You’re protecting the closet.
I serously want you to think deeply about this becuase you obviously think there’s something wrong with being gay.
Please do not deign to tell me what I “obviously” think or feel, or assume I have not already thought about this or any other subject deeply enough. I don’t give a rat’s ass whether someone is or is not gay – it just does not matter to me, and I am sorry that it still matters so much for some in our society that one group is running around demonizing them, and others are trying to expose them.
I think there is something seriously wrong with people taking it upon themselves to decide for others what information must be public. There is very little difference between you outing someone who didn’t want to be outed, and those who think they have the right to tell women they can’t have an abortion, or worse, would think it their right to make public the names of those who had had them.
David Ehrenstein @ 267
There is no excuse for being in the closet, except for their own personal prefference and that is a decision that IS NOT YOURS to make.
It is laughable that as a gay man, you think you have a right to dictate how they should “be gay.”
Anne says:
“I don’t give a rat’s ass whether someone is or is not gay – it just does not matter to me.”
Darling, that’s right up there with “The check is in the mail” and “I promise not to come in your mouth.”
Do you now. Well I happen to be black. That infomation is immediately available upon meeting me. And so is the fact that I’m gay. Obviously the latter makes you very uncomfortable. GROW THE FUCK UP!!!!
I have an idea what it’s like to be a woman and to have other people try to force their reproductive agenda on me. I have an idea what it’s like to be an atheist and know that I would lose clients if I was vocal about that. So I have made a decision to be a loud and proud atheist, except not in front of clients. Perhaps that makes me a coward, but it’s MY CHOICE TO MAKE. Apparently, you seek to draft every gay into your war. I’d prefer to see an all-volunteer army. Your position is fundamentally undemocratic.
Is this drivel meant to be taken seriously? I can’t imagine that it is.
op99, good lord, woman. You are too tedious for words. If you had any idea what it’s like to grow up gay in this culture or to have a gay kid, you would understand why it’s too late for any compassion or respect to be shown to gays who work for the Gaybashing Old Party. Why don’t you just stick to commenting on issues you are qualified to discuss? You’re just embarrassing yourself now.