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(From left to right, clockwise: President George W. Bush; Stephen Hadley, National Security Advisor; Michael Chertoff, Director of Homeland Security; Vice President Dick Cheney — on screen, presumably from some secure location; Senior Advisor to the Secretary of State on Iraq David Satterfield, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Gen. John Abizaid and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Peter Pace. AP Photo/The White House, Eric Draper.)
Let's play a little game this morning. In the above photo, spot the person who has been selected to participate in the meeting because he provides an opposing viewpoint that allows President Bush to stretch his opinions and contemplate the possibility of change or failure of policy or anything at all that smacks of holding him accountable for poor decisionmaking.
Anyone? Yeah, I thought not. What a media farce.
Our soldiers on the ground and their commanding officers, who are working tirelessly to keep casualties and injuries to a minimum while dealing with equipment and manpower shortages, deserve a helluva lot better than this. America deserves better than staged election-year photo opportunity for a room full of sycophants who have already made up their minds to tell King Georgie what he wants to hear rather than risk their careers on his petulant refusal to actually listen to truth and counter-argument.
It is well past time for some accountability — on Iraq and everything else. Since the rubber stamp Republican Congress has failed to do any of that for the last five years, it is time for some big changes — and a whole lot of votes for Democrats. Had enough?
(For more, see this from the WaPo, and this entitled "Bush And Rumsfeld Defend Strategy in Iraq" (oh yeah, lots of honesty in the above room, I tell ya…) and this on the meeting itself; here is the President's radio address from this morning; and this from Condi via ReutersUK saying there won't be any changes in policy. So…um…photo-op, anyone?)
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Toady says:
AP – The swift move to penalize North Korea for its nuclear test could clear the way for punishing Iran over its disputed nuclear program, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Saturday.
Last time they had one of these pr op confabs–at Camp David–the Iraq invasion was underway.
Whazzup?
There is, however, one ohter interesting thing to the photo, also about who isn’t in it. Can anybody guess who we’d all naturally assume would be in it, but isn’t? Hmmm?
Tis more crap.
More crap spewing and people dying.
You nailed it, Redd.
“It’s tough, I unnerschtand…”
Stay the Corpse.
Oh, and by the way, continue to ADORE ME!
_
Regarding the above photo. Considering the subject matter under discussion around that table, I’m thinking that Lieberman and most definitely, Hillary should be there. Two primo Bush Iraq war toadies.
Where’s Condi?
Kentucky Woman @ 7
Under the table on her knees.
_
Great news for Christy–you can recycle that headline for tomorrow’s blergh shows. Did a quick flyby of their websites and here’s a sample of what we’ve got to look forward to…
MTP interviews Barack Obama still on his book tour. Then for “balance” there’s the entrenched white male Washington insiders: Broder, Charlie Cook, some other forgettable, and the Prince of Darkness himself.
A good morning to sleep in.
Kentucky Woman @
7
Nowhere.
dratty at 3
shooter? – duh
probably listening in/presiding over from undisclosed location?
also, note how especially useless Pace is made to feel – shoved farther away from the cozy group than anyone else, yet right up where jr can read his soul…
ICK! goodgawdYES I’ve HAD ENOUGH! Turns my stomach.
WILL.NOT.GIVE.UP till they’re gone!
rinse & repeat
again
again
….
Bush: “We just have to continue to stall till Jesus returns with HIS army…”
Stephen Colbert said it best in his remarks to the White House Correspondents Association Dinner:
“I stand by this man. I stand by this man because he stands for things. Not only for things, he stands on things. Things like aircraft carriers and rubble and recently flooded city squares. And that sends a strong message: that no matter what happens to America, she will always rebound—with the most powerfully staged photo ops in the world.”
The White House photographers will be very busy between now and Nov 7.
BobbyG @ 8
707!!
condiwho? condiment? ohhhh. I thot we left the crockpot downstairs…
Kentucky Woman @ 7
Moscow. There’s this little thing about nucular weapons testing in North Korea that she’s chatting with the neighbors about. No biggie.
Peterr @ 16
and here I thought Russia had become a mecca for designer shoes. Slapping forehead.
I watched Retired BG McCafferty (sp) last night on Hardballs.
They have no fucking idea what’s going on… they are adlibbing, and making things up as they
go along…
We CANNOT WIN in Iraq…
There is no solution…
The only alternative is fucking impeachment
I’m sick and tired of being bull shitted to death…
Jack
Kentucky Woman @ 17
don’t laugh. I hear Moscow’s a thriving capitalist’s dream-city these days!
Adie @ 15
Since we’re talking about Condi Rice, I’m guessing you mean “crackpot.”
long as we’re *snarkin’ up the place…
Way out here in whut used ta was rural OH, we’s got sump pumps in our crocks, fer, well, y’know..
I got a ole rusty one I could send to washyton if’n it’d dew anygoodness…
I don’t understand how all the top military brass, most of them Vietnem Vets, can not just jump up in the middle of the table and should Enough!!
How can they put these solders through what they went through in Vietnam?
I was out of town for a few days but wow, what a shocker!
In a debate with her challenger in the Nov. 7 election, Hutchison, R-Texas, said she would not have voted for war had she known there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. But she also made it clear she does not support troop withdrawal.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..hvBHNlYwM-
Hutchison probably has the highest JAR of any politician in Texas and has NO chance of losing her seat in November.
“As the Iraqis stand up…yadda, yadda, yadda.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/vide…..60,00.html
Impeachment Happens @ 12
I think it was a strategy proposal with this very title that got Pace promoted to where he is today.
Being governed by mere idiots would be a relief, at this point.
lina @ 22
Maybe what I hear is true: when you make O-7, they implant an extra bone in your skull.
Farce? Boy howdee! The Bush administration- all bullshit- all the time.
The president won’t change anything because of political polls, –well he might change his TACTICS- but not his stratergy. What IS his stratergy- “they stand up- we stand down”? Kill all the Iraqis? Whoops- the president doesn’t HAVE a stratergy- so how the fuck could he change it. He IS willing to have a two hour photo op though where he can be photographed seriously considering shit.
“You’re doing a heckuva job, General Pace”.
“Well thank you sir, and may I say, you’re doing a heckuva job too”.
“Thank you General Pace.” Secretary Rumsfeld, you’re doing a heckuva a job.”
“Well, thank you Mr. President, and you too sir are doing a heckuva job.”
“General Abizaid, you’re doing a heckuva…”
etc and ad nauseum.
Condi: sing us a song, i’m the piano (wo)man
give me my shoes for freeee(dom}
NOT.
La la la, de de da
La la, de de da da da
Chorus:
Sing us a song, youre the piano man
Sing us a song tonight
Well, were all in the mood for a melody
And youve got us feelin alright
The Bay State Librul @ 18
former drug czar McCaffrey? I thought he was one of those saying we can win if we send more troops (”if we all clap hard, seven battallions will appear!”). If he’s saying we can’t win, that’s a big switch
Lou Costello’s link in #24 is a must view – Digby just linked to it and it is an essential view of what’s going on … watch it!
Haven’t been to Moscow- but it would have to go some to compete with Prague as to capitalist wet dreams- that place is wall to wall “sellin shit”.
Kim Jung Il promised China no more nuke testing.
North Korea needn’t produce more “tests”. The cat is out of the bag. They have completed their mission to demonstrate to the world that they are capable of defending themselves – which is a crime according to the USA. Chomsky says that the US only attacks defenseless nations.
Sidebar: Does anyone know who may have been considering an attack on North Korea? I don’t.
But, I suppose NK will now have more more leverage in its international relationships.
As far as loose nukes are concerned they are available in the former USSR, as are unemployed scientists and technicians who have the know-how.
On the Kay Bailey Hutchison comment- and the Baker bullshit- and the Warner bullshit.
Goopers are tryin to tell the voters that things will change even if they vote gooper- that’s the pant load they’re tryin ta sell this week. Any buyers out there?
Gosh, wasn’t there this guy, oh whatizname, uh Brady maybe? Where is he in that picture? Or any of his peeps?
It really is a picture of a punchline in waiting.
I’m surprised that Pace didn’t just elbow Abizaid to get Rumsfeld to tell the class what God has told him about how to win.
Pace on Rumsfeld’s Conversations with God
Apparently, the good Lord looks a lot like Dick Cheney – who knew?
Pace wasn’t the only one awash in the flood of Rumsfeld admiration.
That would be Navy Admiral James Stavridis who is taking over Southcom’s command [including GITMO]from General Bantz Craddock. I am sure they had a reason for including his age, 51, that was wholly unrelated to any speculation about dementia.
Craddock, who will be supreme commander of the allied forces in Europe, had a few words for the GITMO command he was leaving behind:
It’s incredible to me that with leaders like that there would be any problems.
GW Clusterfuck says that his stratergy will not change- the goal will remain an independant Iraq.
Uh- that’s no fuckin stratergy!
Take his fuckin words away from him- that bastard should not be allowed near the english language!
email this around to wake up yer friends! Christy linked to it yesterday and i believe it’ll move the most apathetic voter to the polls like nothing else I’ve seen.
heroes.
http://www.truthdig.com/report…..s_birthday
Downsized but Not Out
Barbara Ehrenreich & Tamara Draut
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20061106/ehrenreich
If the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff thinks that Rummy is bein led by the Lord- given what’s fucked up about Iraq- then he must be a Manachean- and must think that Rummy’s workin for the BAD GOD.
lina 22
Weeks & weeks ago, I saw Pace standing with rummy as the latter went on & on blathering the “real truthiness” of whatever war matter was currently at hand.
CNN’s camera zoomed in over & over to show a tear trickling down Pace’s face. NO. It was NOT sweat. It WAS a tear, out of the corner of his eye, next to his nose, & it was followed by another one or 2.
It’s possible I got the network wrong, but not the incident itself. This did happen and it was STUNNING footage, apparently even to the person holding the camera. Otherwise, why would he/she zoom in over & over?! I often wonder if any copy of that tape still exists, not that it would do much good now, except to get Pace fired for politically incorrect weakness or something.
WHY indeed(!) are these guys putting up with this %&##t!?!
It’s LITERALLY killing them, even the ones here “at home”!
rwcole @ 34
I don’t know about that. Hutchison made a hard break from Bush, the Liereberman4Lieberman Party and etc. and has nothing to gain from it!?
Here’s the thing about the religious nit wits- brought out years ago by Voltaire.
If ya think that there’s a God out there- then either God’s just kinda hangin out an lettin MAN fuck up the world on his own- or ya think that what’s happening is God’s will- how he wants things to be.
With the first view- you get sanity- but no peace of mind- with the second view- in order to obtain peace of mind- you must actively embrace INSANITY. You have to believe, for example- that God WANTS Iraq to be a fucked up mess and actively led Clusterfuck to create this bloody chaos.
Coz–It’s no accident that this shit is all coming out before the election. What Rove wants is “No promises- but goopers see that this thing requires changes and we’ll make sure it happens- you don’t have to vote dem to make it happen.”
Peter Pace has sold out.
Sad day, indeed, for our men who shout, then whisper,(and sometimes because of PTSD, whimper) Semper Fi in their “sleep”.
All these people jumping on the ‘Iraq was a mistake’ bandwagon. Where’s Hill? Our titular leader and anointed, moneyed, well connected, and supposed front runner for the Democratic presidential nomination for 2008.
Pace was BORN sold out- why do ya think they picked him?
rwcole @ 42
That’s what’s so scary about these guys. They actually believe that god is telling them what to do.
Can you say “son of sam”?
FARCE OF A DIFFERENT COLOR
Sorry, but I got closed out of last two threads, before I could tell TRex I love him. Here goes …
Loooved your “Cognitive Dissidents” work, TRex. Bravo!
I’m filing it away in my LEEEEFT-RIGHT-WRONG folder with:
1. the long-ago research on how Republicans in the D.C. region demand absolutely rigid, static symmetry in their gardening and landscaping …
2. how there may, indeed, be Right Brain-Left Brain organic differences in how Lefties and Righties think …
3. and how the Heart of the NeoCon always hunts for Authoritarian, Cold and Dysfunctional Poppas. (the B@stard Daddy Syndrome driving people who still “admire” Bushies).
Now I can stir in Bjork (whom I’ve never heard) and spicy foods (I am a Veteran Chile Head, tho I’d also add The Stinking Rose – Garlic) to the gumbo stew pot of stuff rigid right-wingers can’t stand the taste of!!
Oh … I’ve been passing around driftglass’ nuggets of genius for about a year. But you’re right: many of my recipients just don’t get the driftglass genius gene. And they’re not even NeoCons or Repubs.
Hmmmm. More research needed. Thank you for the texture and habanero in the meal, TRex.
POSTSCRIPT: Note on your ccr Troll … never feed the trolls, folks. Waste of your good energy. ccr is antimatter. No calories; No nutrients.
Coz – I think with even James Baker pronouncing the whole mess a mess, Hutchinson and others are laying some cover for “creds” when they get behind their 08 candidate.
BTW – Ghost Plane (very good read) answers some of the pre9/11 renditions questions (I think that you were the one that I speculated with about that???) and apparently we did engage in rendition to Egypt during that time frame – from Albania, Bulgaria, Azerbaijan, UAEmirates, Malaysia and Syria – all to Egypt.
All you need to know about Pace is found in the clip of him *answering* questions before Congress. The length of the pauses while he tried to parse his
liesanswers was painful to watch and cheap.rwcole @ 42
My faith was shaken in November of 2000 and has never recovered. God may be more like the one you describe in your first view. Or perhaps we create our own reality and coincidentally share the same nightmare. I never dreamed that I would miss Bill Clinton like I do.
From the category of “Did he really DO that?”
Jew Bashing: Republican U.S. Representative J.D. Hayworth (R-AZ) cancelled an appearance at Scottsdale’s Temple Beth Israel, and sent in his place spokesperson Jonathan Tratt, who told the audience that Hayworth, a life-long Baptist, “is a more observant Jew” than those present. Tratt’s comments drew loud and angry boos and caused most of the audience to walk out in disgust. After the walk-out, another Hayworth surrogate, Irit Tritt announced from the temple’s bimah, “No wonder there are anti-Semites.”
Oh, now I get it. That picture is The Last Supper, no?
Mary 49 Angie 44
Yes. ‘Sad’ doesn’t begin to cover it. Devastating and inexcusable for the sake of our country and the world, regardless of what wrenching personal problems are indicated by the painful spectacle.
Christy — sorry I missed the Crockpot thread. As per my ealier suggestion to spotlight recent articles, I posted on kos a diary about themes I’d like to see in Lamont ads. The themes can apply in other races, too, so if folks could give the diary some attention, and even help Spotlight it to the CT media, I’d appreciate it.
Lamont ads we’d like to see
Thanks.
sofistic @ 53
If Leonardo had composed The Last Supper that poorly, he would have killed himself.
rwcole @ 52
Throw him an anvil…
rwcole @ 46
Not to quibble here, but this seems to smack of the doctrine of “original sin”. A theory of which I do not subscribe. Bad behavior and wrong thinking I believe are learned. Not innate. The fundamental philosophical difference between liberals and conservatives is that the right subscribes to the notion that men (and women) are born evil. The left does not think this is the case.
Who’s missing from the picture?
Barney.
Miz Beasley bailed long ago….
Return
In a couple of hours I’m bringing my guitar back to the subway for the first time since August 23. Niether my fingers nor my voice are ready, so this will be like turning the lights on in a dusty theater. My main goal being to sweep the cobwebs from the stage.
I’ve never been apprehensive about performing. It has always come naturally to me. But today I look within myself and wonder if I still have a song within me. I wonder if my fingers will cramp in the first half hour, or if I’ll be able to find my voice.
I’ve found myself discouraged since I got home on October 4. Most folks don’t realize that this grand experiment called America is disappearing in the jaws of a dictatorship, and the trap is about to be sprung on the day of what should be an election that brings us back from the edge of an ugly abyss.
BushCo has no intention of relinquishing the power they have stolen, and I fear that “We The People” have grown complacent. So many are just a paycheck or two away from homelessness, it seems an effective resistance against this encroaching Fascism will be impossible in the near term. It’s been said that it can’t happen here, and all I can see is that it’s about to happen. When I said years ago here that I feel like I’m in the dance band on the Titanic, I guess I was speaking to this moment in history, when a bunch of thugs thought the Constitution didn’t apply to them, and very few people seemed to care.
Then, thanks to Puddle, my mind turned to Edwin Owens, and I realized the show must go on. So I’ll carry the memory of an actor’s actor with me as I set up on the platform. The lifeboats are cast for those who can escape, but I’ll be strummin’ as the ship goes down.
Oklahomah— Wasn’t really tryin ta stake out a position on the nature/nurture question- just pointin out that Rummy would never have picked Pace unless he believed that he would be a reliable echo chamber.
One of the most apt portraits of Dubya as art was Dubya as Alfred E. Newman on the cover of The Nation. Instead of “What, Me Worry?” his button said “WORRY”.
Sad day in NH. Funeral for a police officer shot cold bloodedly in the line of duty this week. Father and all around good cop….
Congressional candidate Hodes has cancelled his events with John Kerry today out of respect.
Meanwhile in Iraq it looks like the Mahdi Army is running amok in another town in Iraq. I don’t know what is going on there. I wonder if Al Sadr can even control his own militia anymore or if this is some sort of strategy on his part.
Also, Russia says no sanctions on Iran.
-GSD
sofistic @ 53
More like “Blood Feast”.
-GSD
dratty @
3
Condi Rice doesn’t do national security. Never did. “Bin Laden planning to attack US” was not here problem.
Cheney is not there because he doesn’t attend public meetings. He has his private meetings, where the real decisions are made.
The intelligence agencies are not represented, because they have unanimously concluded that the people in this room are the problem. They aren’t invited anymore.
Laura is out shopping with Jenna and not-Jenna.
Barney the dog is taking a walk, the only sensible thing to do with this crowd.
Did I miss anyone?
Ken Mehlman is at the meeting too, you just can’t see him because he’s in the closet.
-GSD
Mary – thanks for the book rec. (Ghost Plane) – since Egypt’s preference for torture is widely known, sending folks there – no matter where they are from – was not a good thing, eh?
Subway – sing true! I’ll toss a tip in today’s Blue America post for ya!
“Change” of course in Iraq. Surely Baker wants to win there, so he must be recommending that we double up our troop levels.
I am going to vote Republican then, because I think its time for real commitment to win the GWOT. The Repugs will re-instate the draft with a mandate in November.
GSD–Quip of the day award!
Democrats will not win with Diebold machines in place. Why does everyone think this year will be different? They already stole 2 presidential elections (wide scale fraud). You really think they cannot steal House/Senate elections (small scale fraud). This is the same group that managed to legalize warrantless wiretaps, suspend habeas corpus, ban books like “America Deceived” from Amazon, detain demonstrators and start 2 illegal wars based on lies. The Republicans will probably lose a few seats to make it look good but maintain a majority. Then they’ll invade Iran on behalf of Israel.
Support indy media.
Final link (before Google Books bends to gov’t will and drops the title):
http://www.iuniverse.com/books…..95-38523-0
I think most of us understood yer shorthand skirting past nature/nurture quagmire, rwc
A-l-m-o-s-t cleanly dodged that bullet, fella. Must admit I had a brief hiccup too… ;->
rwcole @ 60
hence the tear, from a ?formerlytough? ‘Nam vet. WAY MORE than just sad.
!HAD WAY MORE THAN ENOUGH!
While we’re playing this spotting game: spot the person who’s sitting at the head of the table and raised several feet higher than everyone else.
Speaking of military matters:
The more we holler, the more likely we will keep Bush from carrying out his plan to attack Iran just before the midterms.
Phoenix—Well it IS just before the midterms.
I think that is Lynn in the background in some bondage straps.
Harold 69
precisely why I can’t sleep nights…..
(then there are all those other reasons. purging reps will allow us to get a start on most of them – lotta work to do tho, oh sigh!)
Phoenix Woman 72
precisely why, sleepless or not, I won’t stop hollering. And I like to think we have plenty company in this crowd ;->
Phoenix Woman @ 73
I think Bush’s credibility is so low now that most voters would see such an attack as the “wag the dog” it is. Might actually backfire.
ceo @ 75
ewww…
this image has great promise as a pre-prandial appetite supressant…
The meeting must have lasted only a couple of hours as it was reported on the news to be over before noon.
Can you imagine a couple of hours for anyone – let alone Bush – to figure out a new strategy to get us out of that quagmire?
Good morning.
Oregon ballots went in the mail today. Woohoo, I’ll be voting by Mon or Tues.!!
I’ve been wrong many times before- but I don’t forsee an attack before the midterms- unless Clusterfuck can fake an attack on us by Iran or North Korea.
Clusterfuck needs months to build up the blood lust for another attack- he can’t just move from “six pack talks” to bloody invasion over night. He is not strong enough politically to pull the sales job off now. I don’t see it.
Pace spoke out against Rummy initially and caved shortly after.
Disgraceful.
No Marine, a sycophant.
http://www.columbiatribune.com…..ews022.asp
Oklahoma kiddo @ 45
Great point.
Re Lieberman and Lamont, both Kos and MyDD are linking to a Hartford Courant article on Lieberman’s funding from a White House donor network–more proof that he’s running as an undercover Republican. The link is to the article is http://www.courant.com/news/po…..s-politics
(Not sure I used the buttons correctly to link.)
Sha @ 79
Hell, it takes him two hours to figure a strategy to get out of the room…
We’re two weeks and change out from vote day. No October surprise from Rover yet- not to say that there won’t be one- and nothing much from the dems either. Most of this race is inside the margin of error- and the key seats are jumpin back and forth within that margin like jumpin beans.
This may be the most interesting election night in our lifetimes.
There WILL be cheating- diebolding and MORE importantly- attempts to disenfranchise minority voters- and intimidate em- and challenge their votes and all the other gooper bullshit.
I don’t know what to do about diebold- except to set a trap and catch some fuckers red handed- then be willing to go to the wall to protest the gooper theft- like the losing party in Mexico did. Short of that- this will continue.
News: Winston-Salem Journal Endorses Sharpe!
On October 15th, the Winston-Salem Journal wrote an excellent endorsement for Roger Sharpe and our campaign. The Winston-Salem Journal is the largest newspaper in the 5th Congressional district with a readership that streches district-wide.
http://www.sharpeforcongress.com/news/?id=4
Nice! Still a longshot though.
Just out of curiosity, does anybody have an estimate of how many general grade officers will be retiring between now and ‘08? And what might they be wanting to say to the press?
Cozumel at 86 – excellent news! :) Am working on a round-up of candidate news for later — appreciate the heads up on this, I’ll include it.
Some good Colbert:
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gm…..erloc.html
Christy Hardin Smith @ 89
Here’s the article from the WSJ…
http://www.journalnow.com/serv…..&path=!opinion!editorials!&s=
my dream:
rover throws an Oct.surprise party
no one shows up
newscorpse forgets to cover it
he goes home alone
rat bastahd @
80
Have my mail in ballot for AZ… it is two pages front and back….
IN AZ you can request your mail in ballot up to 10 days before the election. There are 19 ballot measures including all the candidates. If you are limited on time when voting, then get your mail in ballot and then do the research.
Early Ballot Request
Another thing about all the whining I am hearing about election fraud. The Bigest way to combat it is to have a VERY HIGH turnout. I am telling everyone in my DFA group, each member is responsible to make sure 5 voters vote(Dems of course). Then ask them to make sure that they be responsible for 5 voters!
AP – Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Saturday delivered a symbolic rebuke to Russia over shrinking press freedoms
Press freedoms? What a riot. Does Russia have habeas corpus?
Oklahoma kiddo @ 94
The Russian legal system leaves much to be desired. I’ll just stop there.
OK kiddo: “Not to quibble here, but this seems to smack of the doctrine of “original sin”. A theory of which I do not subscribe. Bad behavior and wrong thinking I believe are learned. Not innate. The fundamental philosophical difference between liberals and conservatives is that the right subscribes to the notion that men (and women) are born evil. The left does not think this is the case.”
Reread Ch.1 of A People’s History of the U.S. by Howard Zinn. The Iroquois were the nurturers: “Children in Iroquois society, while taught the cultural heritage of their people and solidarity with the tribe, were also taught to be independent, not to submit to overbearing authority. They were taught equality in status and the sharing of possessions. They did not use harsh punishment on children, but gradually allowed the child to learn self-care.”
The newly-arrived Europeans were believers in the dominant father: “And surely there is in all children a stubborness, and stoutness of mind arising from natural pride, which must, in the first place, be broken and beaten down; that so the foundation of their education being laid in humility and tractableness, other virtues may, in their time, be built thereon.”
Guess which culture “won”? Where “we” are as a nation is really not surprising. As John Collier, an American scholar who lived among the Indians of the Southwest said of their culture: “Could we make it our own, there would be an eternally inexhaustible earth and a forever lasting peace.”
With so much evil in one room, Cheney would have been too much and was asked to call in remotely.
egregious @ 95
I would have to think Condi’s condemnation of Russia is bit like like the old glass houses and stones bit.
Very off topic
Trying to redefine a misunderstood Xtian doctrine
Reinhold Niebuhr’s Doctrine of Original Sin
IMHO, one of many aspects of Niebuhr’s genius is in placing the Xtian understanding of Original Sin in a larger context of the human understanding of evil. Also I understand Niebuhr’s insights to be compatible with atheistic, agnostic, and theistic thought.
[1] Without a doctrine of original sin, there is no buffer against the “perfectability”
of humanity. That’s a crushing burden to bear when we glimpse the suffering that has always characterized human existence.
Original Sin is simply Xtianity’s recognition of what all cultures and religions have to come to grips with, the history of evil. Niebuhr called it a “permanent existential,” just as virtue is a “permanent existential.”
[2] One example of “heresy” in a Xtian context occurs when people try to hide behind “original sin,” when it comes to actions for which they were plainly responsible, e.g. Foley, Ney, legion of Roman Catholic priests hiding their criminal behavior behind the disease of substance abuse. Substance abuse is a disease and falls in line with the history of evil. Stealing government funds or preying on minors, however, are individual acts for which we need to hold people accountable.
[3] Niebuhr understood that our freedom as human beings is not perfect. “Control” is an illusion, because so much of our “history,” determines who we are. As we come to understand our history, and that of others, we enlarge the scope of the possibility of our freedom.
IMHO, those are central features of all human existence, quite apart from atheism, agnostocism, and theism.
In a psychological language, Alice Miller (Drama of the Gifted Child) writes well about this.
katymine, the great thing about the ballots going in the mail today, TO EVERY OREGON VOTER, is that any October surprise will be too late in this state. Sure some voters will wait til the last day, but loads of people will be voting this coming week. It is too late for Karl – Buh-bye!
Subway at 60 – Welcome back to life. Yeah, sometimes it does seem so “Why bother”, but when ya think about it, what else ya gonna do? You have the passion and the talent, so down into the earth you go to bring light to some travelers’ souls. Sing it, subway!
I love this place. Crockpots, not crackpots.
… well, Pickles is missing from the photo! Perhaps she’s outside, banging on the door: “I have your meds, George, I have your meds!”
There’s rather a broad range of views represented in this snapshot of War Cabinet Deux:
Bush: Wanna bomb somebody
Pace: Got nothing to bomb nobody
Rumsfeld: Bomb with the bombs we have, not the bombs we want
Abizaid: How many days until I can retire?
Cheney: Wanna bomb everybody!
So, in their warped worldview where bombs are the ONLY credible solution, there’s a wide range of opinions furthering Dear Leader’s self-esteem and flattering his historical vantage point: “We’ll all be dead.”
Oklahoma kiddo @ 98
and then there is their evil invasion of Afghanistan with a wink, wink, nod from the pukes and others who want to dominate other peoples’ lands.
It is the Silk Road, after all.
As The Deaniacs say, "w00t! Since my return from the hospital on Oct.4, my song "Goper’s Lament" has been downloaded over 1000 times, crashing 31,000 downloads since January. This song is field tested and it works. So take it down and pass it around. This isn’t whoring. This is how I do poor man’s activism. You just might change minds with a song that might not be changed in argument. Give it a try.
AP – Mortar rounds rained down on a crowded outdoor market south of Baghdad on Saturday, killing at least 18 people and injuring dozens, police said.
Peace. Bush style. I have to wonder, how many children perished?
John interesting stuff- that I haven’t ever thought much about- the doctrine of original sin is also, as I recall, what sets the stage for the cosmic need for Christ’s redemption through personal sacrafice- and that’s at the heart of christianity.
Mommybrain @ 101
Each heart touched is another ripple in the pond. Thank you for your kind words.
rat bastahd @ 100
I know, I loved it when I lived in Oregon… there is a ballot measure to do the same here in AZ and one of the progressive groups is fighting it….
Get this, they had the gall to tell me that there was 30,000 instances of election/voter fraud in Oregon in 2004…. AND their source????
Bill Sizemore…… WOOOHOOOO ROFLMAF….. Sizemore…… YEE GAD ….. sourcing a convicted felon who was convicted on voter fraud!
Now I have a group pissed at me because I just cut the legs off their premise and they spent $1000 in ads on our local Air America station with the “No” campaign!
Stupid Killing Fools
my caption for that picture.
sad.
The doctrine of original sin is not universal in Christianity. While it is central to most forms of Western Christianity it is not to other streams. In Eastern Christianity the central mission of Christ is “Theosis” or divinization of humankind, and not a rescue mission per se or expiation from original sin.
Everythingseemssoneat @ 97
Yeah, they have to be really careful not to have a critical mass of evil.
John Casper @ 99
Are we then saying that the “Doctrine of Original Sin” is a phony ’syllabus-forward’(as in outline) on the path to righteous and perhaps therefore correct thinking? If so, I might concur.
lina @ 22
Everyone who does that gets fired. When you make dissent a career-ending move, even if you have some good people left, they have to decide whether they can do more by speaking out once, or by trying to work quietly from the inside.
Personally, I think it’s pretty clear by now that there isn’t any good to be done from the inside, but I can still imagine there are well-intentioned officers who believe that if they speak up and get cashiered, they’ll leave their people at the mercy of people who don’t even think of dissenting. That is, they may not be able to make things any better, but they may still think they are keeping them from getting worse.
Yeah katymine, I’m a fan of vote-by-mail. We have much higher turnouts then most states: it’s easier for elderly voters, no lines, no waiting, no time pressures. However, the old adage about “who counts the votes” still stands.
Bill R. @
110
Respectfully, I don’t think you’re correct here. Nicea 325, and Chalcedon 451 bracket Augustine d430, who defined OS in his responses to Pelagius. That forms the basis for the Xtian understanding of OS. The schism between East and West @1054 strongly suggests to me that everything prior to 1054 is held in common. I have never heard that the Catholic Churches who rejected Rome (applause)and mandatory celibacy (applause) also rejected Augustine. You may well be right, I just have never heard that.
Looks like an italics left on in 104 or 105.
John Casper @ 115
John, your erudition on the early Church (and other matters) is one of the blessings of the lake.
So many people here with so much to share…
Rahtty, try refreshing your screen. I closed the italics tags.
Are we then saying that the “Doctrine of Original Sin” is a phony ’syllabus-forward’(as in outline) on the path to righteous and perhaps therefore correct thinking? If so, I might concur.
Not quite sure where you are going here.
IIRC, OS comes from Augustine’s responses to Pelagius. According to Augustine, Pelagius, used to recruit widows, immediately following the funeral of their husbands, to commit themselves permanently to celibacy ( a lot of them did and then as could be expected, went back on their promise). According to Augustine’s understanding of Pelagius’ teachings, if only we were “virtuous” enough, we could “earn” salvation. God had to give it to us, because of our good works. (Whether Pelagius actually said this is open to debate). All Xtians agree, we can never “earn” God’s salvation. No matter how good a life we lead, salvation is always a gift. This is where the doctrine of original sin comes from. It legislated (for Xtians) that we all needed God’s mercy and salvation. I think most theologians recognize the wisdom here. What is in God’s heart (assuming there is a God), is a mystery. Without the Doctrine of OS, however, you have a lot of fights about what you have to do to “earn” salvation. OS is a common sense way to avoid those fights.
One of the historical problems has been for Xtians to “throw up their hands at Social injustice,” and focus on personal piety, because “the poor you will have with you always.” I think that misses the point of OS. We’re never going to make the world perfect, but that’s not an excuse to stop trying to fight injustice.
TeddySanFran @ 102
LOL!
You’re on a roll TeddySanFran! Don’t stop now!
Augustine was a radical. I kind of liked the old boy.
Any bluegrass/country fans out there looking for some “progressive” songs? A friend sent me this: http://www.musicrowdemocrats.com/#
“… well, Pickles is missing from the photo! Perhaps she’s outside, banging on the door: “I have your meds, George, I have your meds!”
Have no data for back-up. But rumor has that Pickles is doing meds too. Mother’s ‘little helpers’, or some such. This of course is of absolutely no import.
John- Wow- great stuff on christian theology- yer good!
Another House longshot worth watching. Tessa Hafen…
http://www.tessahafen.com/
Oklahoma kiddo @ 123
Pickles looks as though she’s been taking not only hers but George’s meds as well….
Will send you over our Chief of the General Staff, Sir Richard Dannatt- He told Blair in public that the whole enterprise should be ended, and it is.
OT, but a ray of sunshine from down South:
I found this VERY encouraging here in Savannah. I just now picked up my mail and found a card prepared by NCLR (National Council of la Raza) and the National Association of Latino Elected and Appointed Officials. The text is in English and Spanish, and instructs voters on what they need (or more importantly DON’T need) to bring to the polling place, and other voting rights, including the following:
“If you have any problems – such as your name does not appear on the rolls, you do not have ID, there are no more ballots, etc. – REQUEST A PROVISIONAL BALLOT,” and
“If you are already in line by the time the polls close, you have the right to cast your vote,” and
“You have the right to vote in secret and without being intimidated.”
The card has information on the La Raza web site (www.nclr.org), and numbers to call to report problems.
This is particularly important here in Georgia where not only have they been trying to jam through a law saying you need a state-issued ID to vote, but there is also a burgeoning Hispanic population. I’m about to drop over to the La Raza site and say a loud THANKS to them for educating voters in Georgia.
Howie’s introducing Kirsten Gillibrand in today’s Blue America upstairs.
thanks Kirk, rw.
the doctrine of original sin is also, as I recall, what sets the stage for the cosmic need for Christ’s redemption through personal sacrafice- and that’s at the heart of christianity.
That may be correct.
Buried in the NT however is the pluralism between “expiatory sacrifice,” in Mk, Mt, and Luke,and the maverick Gospel, John.
Everyone’s familiar with expiatory sacrifice, Jesus’ blood washed away our sins.
John’s Gospel, knowingly contradicts that (The final redactor of John’s Gospel @125CE knew about expiatory sacrifice and rejected it). According to John, it was the Birth of Jesus, the Incarnation, that saved humanity (prolepticly). The fact that Jesus suffered and died has nothing to do in John’s soteriology with our “getting saved.”
It’s always helpful to me to recall that they could have disagreed about something so central, at such an early stage.
OT, I’m guilty of the Arian heresy. I don’t think Jesus was divine, merely a great prophet. I think he would be dismayed with our doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus was all about revealing God imo, not being God. I think a lot of his followers were so impressed with his understanding of the nature of God, that they assumed he was God.
John Casper @
99
really not that far from the existentialism of Sartre and, to a lesser extent perhaps, of Camus.
fahrender,
You may know better than I. Perhaps Niebuhr was “Xtianizing” the existentialists? I don’t know Heidegger, but I’ll bet he was pretty seminal too, which is ofcourse why his foray into Naziism was so tragic.
Living in Germany, are you familiar with the story of Hannah Arendt basically “rescuing” Heidegger(her former lover) after ‘45?
Redshift @
111
true. they might have to call in jimmy swaggart to exorcise the place. he wouldn’t need more’n a couple of Baton Rouge hookers to do the job….
I am trying to get an agreement on the assertion that there is perhaps no such thing as ‘original sin’. There is of course the “doctrine” of original sin. But that’s an entirely different matter, and I think I can safely say here, “original sin” is a ‘man-made’ concept. Not provable. If you will. Subject to subjectivism. It is in no way ‘a priori’.
Now I get you Oklahoma kiddo.
Yes, you are absolutely correct.
Original Sin is not in the scriptures. It’s like the Trinity and the Incarnation in that reguard. It was a human construct, agreed upon by all Xtian denominations.
John Casper @ 132
no, i’m not. but you can be sure i’ll go digging around now that you’ve mentioned it. it’s a beautiful story, just by the sound of your synopsis. i’m wondering how the time line of niebuhr and sartre line up. guess i’ll google that too……
Martin Heidegger: September 26, 1889 – May 26, 1976),
Jean-Paul Charles Aymard Sartre (June 21, 1905 – April 15, 1980)
I’m guessing that Sarte was “famous” earlier than Niebuhr????
Karl Paul Reinhold Niebuh(June 21, 1892 – June 1, 1971)
Hey everyone, Kirsten Gillibrand is here for Blue America — please drop in and give her a big FDL welcome! Thanks!
John,
Sartre got in the public eye very shortly after 1945 as I remember. I think some of his writings were well underway, maybe even in print before then.
OT:
Fuck Fred Barnes…Wishing for a terrorist event so his preciously paternalistic Republicans can win a g*ddamn election.
We’ll be seeing you after November 7, Freddy boy.
GSD @
66
Luckily for you GSD, you didn’t out him.
I don’t think it’s Cheney. A frontpage post at DKos Identifies the person in the video as Gen. George Casey (videolinked from Iraq.)
Hard to tell for sure from the picture, but it does seem the person is wearing a uniform – and we know chickenhawk Cheney never did.
Probably couldn’t make the meeting because he had other priorities
clockwise, not counter clockwise
If the tv was subsequently tuned to Ren & Stimpy, maybe they could qualify?
Bush…the photo-op president, part 20 or so (I’ve lost count of all the photo-ops). But, of course, the MSM still love him. He’s shallow, stupid, and easily amused, just like them.